View Full Version : Which Water Treatment
Hi! I am starting with the '15 class on Mar 17. I fully expect some cold weather ahead which can freeze some filters, so I would like some recommendations.
My primary filter will be the big Sawyer, but have a steripen also. Would you carry the Steripen first until the freezing temps are over?
Are the initial water sources clear? That's my problem with the steripen, I don't like to drink/use murky water even if purified.
All input appreciated.
Regards,
Hazmat
Use your big Sawyer. On cold days, just remember to sleep with it, and keep it in an interior pocket (in a baggie). Never had a problem with mine. They DO freeze; a hiking buddy forgot his is his pack overnight, it froze, and was toast. Also, stick with the big vs. mini. I went from big to mini, for size and weight; I went back to the big. The flow rate of the mini is SIGNIFICANTLY slower, so at the end of a long, hard day, time vs weight is an amazing luxury.
Sawyer Mini, in pant's pocket: .1 micron absolute.
The Steripen has been proven ineffective in murky water. If there, small Melitta coffee filter pre-treatment. Plus, MicroPur tablets.
That is, if murky water.
Starchild
12-19-2014, 16:15
...The Steripen has been proven ineffective in murky water. ...
.
Can you show where this has been proven? I have looked and did not find this to be true.
The only thing I can find external from a Steripen site is user opinion and a links back to the steripen site like this one:
However, if murky water is unavoidable SteriPEN suggests using two treatments for your volume of water.
from http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Water%20Treatment/Ultraviolet/SteriPEN%20Adventurer%20Opti/Owner%20Review%20by%20Bob%20Dorenfeld/
use the regular sawyer and sleep with it you should be fine.
Use your big Sawyer. On cold days, just remember to sleep with it, and keep it in an interior pocket (in a baggie). Never had a problem with mine. They DO freeze; a hiking buddy forgot his is his pack overnight, it froze, and was toast. Also, stick with the big vs. mini. I went from big to mini, for size and weight; I went back to the big. The flow rate of the mini is SIGNIFICANTLY slower, so at the end of a long, hard day, time vs weight is an amazing luxury.
The few seconds saved once or twice a day with the regular is not worth the 50% increase in weight over the mini, IMHO.
Dochartaigh
12-19-2014, 16:56
Can you show where this has been proven? I have looked and did not find this to be true.
Anything that's in the water that's not penetrable by UV light could/will still be alive. Have a small piece of dirt, leaf, wood, whatever, with little nasties inside it, and there's no way that UV light is penetrating that small object to kill it. Ingest that object with the "treated" water, and you can get sick. ...basic property of light is that it can't penetrate all objects.
SteriPEN's own literature.
Now, SteriPEN has a prefilter.
I noticed there is absolutely no mention of certification.
The Center for Disease Control and Prevention: if murky, prefilter.
There is a link to an "organization" Safari will not open. (anyone can be a .org)
In addition, I think SteriPEN was not "first".
Testimonials, only. I don't drink the koolaid.
Have you read, online, about the "returns"?
Sawyer, however, meets the ".1 absolute" standard for water filtration.
Disclaimer: I do not sell, have paid advertising, or, have a business interest.
I think müv water treatment may have been "first". I'll look for the literature.
Starchild
12-19-2014, 17:08
Again you stated it was proven, all I get is opinion and a reference back to the Steripen site.
The statement proven sort of requires you to be able to provide a cite if asked, or a retraction if you can not.
It is proven. "CDC" Center for Disease Control and Prevention.
Enjoy, your SteriPen. Please use it in a safe and responsible manner.
I have described "how" to do that.
gpburdelljr
12-19-2014, 18:03
Again you stated it was proven, all I get is opinion and a reference back to the Steripen site.
The statement proven sort of requires you to be able to provide a cite if asked, or a retraction if you can not.
Any basic physics text will tell you that light cannot penetrate opaque objects. Opaque objects are what makes water murky. If the UV light cannot reach the microorganism, it cannot kill it.
Starchild
12-19-2014, 18:21
Connie, this is what I get from searching The Center for Disease Control and Prevention web site:
No pages or documents were found containing "steripen" .
So I do ask again for a link for your statment of 'proven' as I have looked and have not found it, just opinion.
Deal with it.
I added in the Edit: the .org is in Canada. SteriPEN is in Maine. CDC is in USA.
I put links: the information is all there.
Here is more:
SteriPEN website has "testimonials".
mÜV has documentation.
mÜV Micro-UV Water Purifier
Product Description
https://www.meridian-design.com/article_thebest.html
User's Guide
https://www.meridian-design.com/pdf/ASPUsersGuide1rev5-08.pdf
Efficacy Report
https://www.meridian-design.com/pdf/AquaStarEfficacy.pdf
mÜV device
https://www.meridian-design.com/muv.html
Guide:
https://www.meridian-design.com/muv.html
Recharger Kit: (includes batteries)
https://www.meridian-design.com/charger.html
Batteries:
https://www.meridian-design.com/batteries.html
Water Bottle and mÜV:
https://www.meridian-design.com/aquastarplus.html
The AquaStar Plus! bottle provides 100% shielding of any UV-C light
Philips Sterilamp® UV-C tube
99.9% effective against protozoa (including Giardia, Entamoebic Dysentery, and Cryptosporidium)
99.9999% effective against bacteria (including Cholera, Shigella, Salmonella, and E. coli)
99.99% effective against viruses (including Enterovirus, Rotavirus, Hepatitis, and Poliovirus)
Source Information on UV-C Efficacy
We have found that few people, especially outside of the water quality industry, are aware of much of the body of recent research demonstrating that UV-C is excellent at reducing pathogens. In fact it is superior in many ways to other methods of water treatment; for instance, it is now accepted as being highly effective at treating Cryptosporidium and Giardia. Confirmation of this fact is in recent EPA papers. 2, 3, 4, 6
We have included footnotes throughout so that our statements about UV-C can be verified. Most of them are in reference to the EPA's literature, and much of that is summarized in a single EPA document. That is, the “Ultraviolet Disinfection Guidance Manual ” dated June 2003 “Draft”. It can be found on the EPA website at:
http://www.epa.gov/safewater/lt2/guides.html
>>Ultraviolet Disinfection Guidance Manual
http://www.epa.gov/safewater/lt2/pdfs/guide_lt2_uvguidance_draft.pdf
This EPA Guidance Manual is intended “...to provide technical information on the application of ultraviolet light for the disinfection of drinking water by public water systems.” This document is one of the most recent collections of research and explanation on the subject of using UV-C for water treatment and is highly enlightened on the subject. The Guidance Manual is intended as advice to municipalities so in many ways it is not directly relevant to a portable system, but much work was put into this document by the EPA to collect and summarize what is known about UV-C, how it works, and how well it works. In this discussion we will use this EPA document as support for our arguments since, owing to its source, it should be an acceptable independent reference. However all of the statements in that document are, rightly, based on a large body of research that can be referred to independent of the EPA manual.
Footnotes: PDF
https://www.meridian-design.com/pdf/AquaStarEfficacy.pdf
Sarcasm the elf
12-19-2014, 18:36
Hi! I am starting with the '15 class on Mar 17. I fully expect some cold weather ahead which can freeze some filters, so I would like some recommendations.
My primary filter will be the big Sawyer, but have a steripen also. Would you carry the Steripen first until the freezing temps are over?
Are the initial water sources clear? That's my problem with the steripen, I don't like to drink/use murky water even if purified.
All input appreciated.
Regards,
Hazmat
I just want to tell you that I enjoyed seeing that a person named Hazmat started a water filter thread!
freightliner
12-19-2014, 19:50
Wouldn't it just be easier not to take anything but the antibiotic that clears up giardia.
Hi again, that was ironic wasn't is Sarcasm the Elf. Anyway thanks for all the input. I guess I will go with the Sawyer and take extra care. Still have that question of, is the available water in March/April generally clear and fresh in GA thru Tenn. or are most sources murky and discolored. Obviously snowmelt and rainfall have something to do with this, but was wondering as general rule.
Regards,
hazmat
HooKooDooKu
12-19-2014, 20:12
I went from big to mini, for size and weight; I went back to the big. The flow rate of the mini is SIGNIFICANTLY slower, so at the end of a long, hard day, time vs weight is an amazing luxury.
I set mine up as a gravity feed system so that the slower time of the mini doesn't matter...
I take a 2L Evernew Water Carry to the water source to fill up. The way I avoid carrying the filter, dirty water bag, and clean water container all to the water source. Back at camp, I connect a 2L Platypus Hoser (bite-valve removed) and the dirty water bag to the mini, and hang the dirty water bag on a branch or nail (I've added a small loop of twine to the dirty water bag). During the 4 minutes the water filters, I do other camp chores like getting the cooking gear ready to use.
swjohnsey
12-19-2014, 20:31
Hi again, that was ironic wasn't is Sarcasm the Elf. Anyway thanks for all the input. I guess I will go with the Sawyer and take extra care. Still have that question of, is the available water in March/April generally clear and fresh in GA thru Tenn. or are most sources murky and discolored. Obviously snowmelt and rainfall have something to do with this, but was wondering as general rule.
Regards,
hazmat
The water along the trail is mostly clear, mostly springs. I only treated a few times when my water source was river or beaver pond.
Freightliner,
There is no anti-biotic.
There is something different, that attacks genetic material: not only the giardia.
Nasty stuff!
kayak karl
12-19-2014, 20:58
There is no vaccine that can prevent giardiasis. Medicine to prevent infection is not recommended. (http://www.drugs.com/health-guide/giardiasis.html)
kayak karl
12-19-2014, 21:00
The three most commonly prescribed medications used to treat Giardia infection are:
Metronidazole (http://www.drugs.com/metronidazole.html) (Flagyl (http://www.drugs.com/flagyl.html))
Tinidazole (http://www.drugs.com/cdi/tinidazole.html) (Tindamax (http://www.drugs.com/tindamax.html))
Furazolidone (Furoxone)
swjohnsey
12-19-2014, 21:01
Freightliner,
There is no anti-biotic.
There is something different, that attacks genetic material: not only the giardia.
Nasty stuff!
A single dose of Tinidazole will cure giardiasis.
Again, thanks for all the replies. When water sources are clean I feel very comfortable with the Steripen which I use exclusively when hiking the whites but again,
the source is clean.
Both systems have their pros an cons I guess.
Regards,
hazmat
rock steady
12-19-2014, 22:19
I have the 2L Sawyer and love it. Think I need about 7 min to filter 2L.My problem is remembering to STAY HYDRATED. With the 2L in my pack and the sip tube ready--I am ready.I want to remember on Mar 1st that it's important to stay hydrated in the cool weather too. Have a great hike and God bless!
I had giardia, but I got it at City College "food service".
There was only one treatment medicine.
There was one, in Canada, considered "effective" but illegal in USA.
Giardia is spread by beaver AKA "beaver fever" by turtles by humans "wash your hands" and by "I don't know what else". It doesn't mean all beaver, all turtles, all humans are "carriers" or have the giardia organism.
Giardia is the "back story" why people go upstream to look. Then, people said, look upstream for dead animals.
I look over a water source for deciding prefilter, and/or, filter alone, or, filter plus: UV treatment. If no UV, then Micropur.
If I went to an area "new to me" I would ask the forest ranger for the district.
Nowadays, maybe forest service on the internet. If near towns, or, agriculture ask public health.
I really like the Sawyer squeeze. Light, simple, fast, have to remember to sleep with my "squeeze" when frigid out.
On the giardia front, had it confirmed once, Dr prescribed Tinidazole 500mg, took 4 at once. GONE.
Hi! I am starting with the '15 class on Mar 17. I fully expect some cold weather ahead which can freeze some filters, so I would like some recommendations.
My primary filter will be the big Sawyer, but have a steripen also. Would you carry the Steripen first until the freezing temps are over?
Are the initial water sources clear? That's my problem with the steripen, I don't like to drink/use murky water even if purified.
All input appreciated.
Regards,
Hazmat
I carried the Steripen on my first few backpacks. What stopped me doing so (I switched to a pump filter) was not temperature or whether the water was hazy. It's that the water sources were too shallow to fill a Nalgene so I could put the Steripen in there.
For those trips, I borrowed pumps from my fellow backpackers. Then I got my own and haven't had a problem getting whatever water I needed.
MuddyWaters
12-21-2014, 10:08
I carried the Steripen on my first few backpacks. What stopped me doing so (I switched to a pump filter) was not temperature or whether the water was hazy. It's that the water sources were too shallow to fill a Nalgene so I could put the Steripen in there.
For those trips, I borrowed pumps from my fellow backpackers. Then I got my own and haven't had a problem getting whatever water I needed.
Its usually simple to use your cook pot, or even a ziplock, to collect water from trickles. Trickles far too shallow to pump.
The Cleaner
12-21-2014, 10:23
29223When it's coming right from the source, no treatment for me. I've been drinking from this spring for almost 30 years w/o any problems....
I used a steripen on my AT thru hike the entire way. Found out early that it did not like below freezing temperatures, so I made sure to treat before going to sleep. Used lithium batteries and bought the filter/funnel to use for murky water. Only used it once or twice then sent it home. Never really had a problem finding clear water sources. I used the Sawyer squeeze on my LT thru and found that much simpler.
colorado_rob
12-21-2014, 11:15
Well, I'm a big fan of the Sawyer (I own/use both the std. size and the mini), but for AT use, thanks to great advice on Whiteblaze, I became a convert to Aqua Mira, and wouldn't consider anything else personally. Light, easy to use, it's no-brainer for me.
For the same reason AM works great along the AT, seems like the steripen would as well, but pals of mine that use the steripen tend to call it the "Swear-i-pen" because it fails so often. It's also heavier and requires batteries. no thanks! A 3-oz AM kit lasts a full month, and of course becomes more like 1-oz or less towards the end of that month. Seems like the lightest solution out there except the no-treatment method, which due to the high quality along a lot of the AT is a reasonable one as well, at least for ground spring water sources.
The quality/clarity of the water along the tail has been fantastic, so really, all I care about on the AT is killing as many little buggies as possible. Out west (in CO and on the JMT, for example), the water quality has been less good so have used the Sawyer in order to filter out the other impurities for better taste.
Odd Man Out
12-21-2014, 11:16
I have not been to the AT in GA/TN/NC, but I do know that the thru hikers I met in VA all complained that the water sources were mostly nice and clear until they got to VA, where there were fewer springs and they were more likely to be filtering from larger streams in the valleys.
squeezebox
12-21-2014, 11:21
Flagyl is an anti-parasite, different than an antibiotic.
squeezebox
12-21-2014, 11:39
I'm thinking of replacing my Sawyer once there's no chance of freezing, just in case it did freeze. Geez they are less than $20 at walmart. Replacing is cheap insurance. Also thinking of hanging it from a string around my neck, that way it's closer to my skin and stays warmer than sitting in a pocket.
swjohnsey
12-21-2014, 12:56
Flagyl is an anti-parasite, different than an antibiotic.
Flagyl (metronidazole) is an oral synthetic antiprotozoal and antibacterial agent, l-β-hydroxyethyl)-2-methyl-5-nitroimidazole.
Wouldn't it just be easier not to take anything but the antibiotic that clears up giardia.
Most people who use that method and don't get sick will say yes, definitely.
Most people who use that method and get giardia or cryptosporidium or campylobacter will emphatically answer no.
To me it makes more sense on several levels to focus on prevention rather than treatment.
I had giardia 1.5 years.
I went to an Internist MD, my General Practicioner MD, another Internist MD he referred, etcetera.
I recommend the public health clinic that knew what to do: the right medicine at the right dose.
If you get giardia, that is my advice. Better advice: don't get guardia.
The ".1 micron filtration absolute" standard protects, unless your immune system is compromized, for example, having an immunity deficiency disease.
Fantastic info everyone!
I'll be taking the big Sawyer and take precautions against freezing. I did not think about the batteries in the Steripen not doing well in the cold also.
Good to hear that most water sources are relatively clean. I hate filtering water from mud puddles!
Later,
hazmat
freightliner
12-22-2014, 19:46
With all the crazy things I read on this site that hikers think is perfectly okay to do I just had to see if somebody did that. I read that you don't need a tent you don't need a first aid kit you only need a pint of water it's crazy.
I have recently gone to my doctor and said I should have something in my first aid kit. He gave me Metronidazole and Cephalexin Monohydrate but I forgot what that was for. I never go hiking without my steripen. I just don't have the patience for any other technique. Hazmat if you're still reading this I've hiked in the single digits with mine and the batteries have never given me a problem. I would also like to say that the light on it makes a great lantern for when setting up your camp at night.
My eyeglasses have a protective coating against the UV in natural sunlight.
Isn't that light intense UV?
Kevin108
12-22-2014, 20:05
Yes, which is why SODIS is an option, if you have the time.
freightliner
12-22-2014, 20:21
My eyeglasses have a protective coating against the UV in natural sunlight. Isn't that light intense UV?
Connie the steripen has a LED light on it and with that cap on it makes a great lantern. I don't know how they made it work but when it's working that little LED will flash and it will know if it's actually in water. It is separate from the UV light that sterilizes the water. Someday you should buy one and give it a try I think you'll like it I know I do. I have had bad luck with the filtering type stuff and I just can't drink toxic water. I mean really you're putting poison in the water to kill germs and bacteria what does that do to your gut. Your gut has good germs and bacteria in it to help you digest food properly. Wouldn't that poison kill them to? Does that stuff get in your blood stream and kill that stuff to?
rocketsocks
12-22-2014, 20:28
Connie the steripen has a LED light on it and with that cap on it makes a great lantern. I don't know how they made it work but when it's working that little LED will flash and it will know if it's actually in water. It is separate from the UV light that sterilizes the water. Someday you should buy one and give it a try I think you'll like it I know I do. I have had bad luck with the filtering type stuff and I just can't drink toxic water. I mean really you're putting poison in the water to kill germs and bacteria what does that do to your gut. Your gut has good germs and bacteria in it to help you digest food properly. Wouldn't that poison kill them to? Does that stuff get in your blood stream and kill that stuff to?Funny you should ask, I asked the same question...and here's what was said.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/101935-Does-Aqua-Mira-kill-good-bacteria-in-your-gut
swjohnsey
12-22-2014, 20:30
Most folks in the U.S. and the rest of the civilized world are drinking "toxic" water.
kayak karl
12-22-2014, 21:13
Yes, which is why SODIS is an option, if you have the time.
How would this be accomplished on the trail?
freightliner
12-22-2014, 21:31
Thanks rocketsocks that's one more reason to carry a few more ounces. I'll be happy happy carrying my steriPEN.
Woof Shaven
12-22-2014, 23:41
I just picked up two Sawyer mini-filters. One for my Platty squeeze bag and one to go in-line with a Platypus BigZip backpack hydration system.
I did not know they made a "big" version of the Sawyer filters.
Thanks for the advice on keeping them warm. I did not know freezing conditions could toast one of these things out ( or freeze ruin them).
I'm also going with Aquamira Part-A Part-B system (drops).
I learn something everyday. Thanks for the tip.
I use Sawyer. If I have found a "virus" warning, and, I cannot carry "spring water" from the grocery store, I would use Micropur in addition to the Sawyer.
Only then. Sawyer adds no "chemicals".
Micropur is not what you think. Nevertheless, I avoid contaminated water sources. I change my hiking plans.
LuckyMan
12-23-2014, 17:02
Do NOT waste your money on a Steripen, the worst piece of backpacking equipment I have ever bought. My Steripen Adventurer Opti seemed okay for a while, though the first set of batteries did not last too long. Then, on the second set - $17 for a pair of very hard-to-find batteries, not available even at Wal-Mart, not available at Fontana Village or many other trail towns; available at some drug stores - this energy-sucking gadget failed after only four days. I trudged into Fontana dehydrated and got Aquamira drops at the general store. Steripen refused to refund my money, but Prolitegear, where I bought it, was real good about exchanging it for another piece of gear and refunding the rest of my money. Aquamira works fine for me; I tried the Sawyer Mini, which a lot of people like but I found tedious to use and maintain.
With all the crazy things I read on this site that hikers think is perfectly okay to do I just had to see if somebody did that. I read that you don't need a tent you don't need a first aid kit you only need a pint of water it's crazy.
I have recently gone to my doctor and said I should have something in my first aid kit. He gave me Metronidazole and Cephalexin Monohydrate but I forgot what that was for. I never go hiking without my steripen. I just don't have the patience for any other technique. Hazmat if you're still reading this I've hiked in the single digits with mine and the batteries have never given me a problem. I would also like to say that the light on it makes a great lantern for when setting up your camp at night.
Ditto. My SteriPEN Freedom works great. Batteries are rechargeable and it has an LED light.