Sleeping tips on trail...don't sleep well....

[saltysack]

Just returned from a quick trip from NOC to Fontana dam. I shuttled back to NOC just before dark and began the climb up to cheoah bald.. 4 hours later arrived...tossed and turned all night. Day 2 hiked to Cable gap shelter....tossed and turned all night. Day three arrived at my truck around 11. My question is I don't seem to ever get a good night sleep while out...
I use a large neoair xlite on top of a 3/4 length zlite CCF pad during the winter( dog used the other 1/4). For pillow use stuff sack with hiking pants and shirt. Bag is a marmot helium 15 down bag. Lightheart solong6 tent...which I really like! (new purchase). I tend to toss and turn a lot during the night. Last year I bought a 45 deg JRB quilt for summer. Only got to use a few times. So far really like it. I may try a 0 deg quilt for winter as I tend to tangle up in the mummy bag.

How does a quilt do in the cold winter? Maybe a better pillow set up?

Are there any medications you can recommend to help you sleep? I've never used a sleep aid but need to try for my next trip.

JACOBS LADDER kicked my a$$!! Thought I was in good shape....


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[illabelle]

I think the standard answer is "hike farther, and you'll be so tired, you'll fall asleep before you get in bed" - or something like that. :rolleyes:
I toss and turn. I wake often. The night lasts for. ev. er! But at home isn't much different, for me anyway.

Agree about Jacob's Ladder. That thing was hard, and we did it ​downhill!

[sympathetic joy]

I shuttled back to NOC just before dark and began the climb up to cheoah bald.. 4 hours later arrived...tossed and turned all night. Day 2 hiked to Cable gap shelter....tossed and turned all night.

Do you usually hike past dark?

Some people don't sleep well if they do physical exertion in the evening. They need time to wind down before going to sleep.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/22/health/upwave-night-exercise/

If this is the case maybe try hiking until just before sundown and see if you sleep better.

[ChefATLTCT]

the first days and even a week can be bad for me, it just takes time for me adjust to sleeping outdoors again.I have used or use Tylenol with sleep aid, nyquil makes a just sleep aid. The best has been a prescription called lorazepam, 1mg of that and im out all night. None of these seemed to effect me the next day as far as drowsiness or being lethargic.Of course check wiyh your doctor before taking any pills

[Lyle]

At the risk of setting off the WB forum police, have you ever tried a hammock? While I still use a tarp and sleep on the ground, that was solely for weight/bulk reasons. I do sleep much more comfortably and soundly in a hammock.

If I were not able to sleep well on the ground, I wouldn't hesitate to invest the money/time to learn/weight/bulk into using a hammock. It is MUCH more comfortable.

[saltysack]

Do you usually hike past dark?

Some people don't sleep well if they do physical exertion in the evening. They need time to wind down before going to sleep.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/22/health/upwave-night-exercise/

If this is the case maybe try hiking until just before sundown and see if you sleep better.

Y....I often night hike as I get bored sitting at camp. The answer hike farther usually doesn't apply. I stop when tired.


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[saltysack]

At the risk of setting off the WB forum police, have you ever tried a hammock? While I still use a tarp and sleep on the ground, that was solely for weight/bulk reasons. I do sleep much more comfortably and soundly in a hammock.

If I were not able to sleep well on the ground, I wouldn't hesitate to invest the money/time to learn/weight/bulk into using a hammock. It is MUCH more comfortable.

I'm a stomach sleeper. I've tried while car camping to sleep in a eno hammock. Also bring my dog so like the confinement of a tent...thx


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[saltysack]

the first days and even a week can be bad for me, it just takes time for me adjust to sleeping outdoors again.I have used or use Tylenol with sleep aid, nyquil makes a just sleep aid. The best has been a prescription called lorazepam, 1mg of that and im out all night. None of these seemed to effect me the next day as far as drowsiness or being lethargic.Of course check wiyh your doctor before taking any pills

Thx...I may try NyQuil caps next hike....thx


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[Ground Control]

I also have trouble sleeping, especially in less-than-familiar places.

I use OTC Benadryl (easier on your liver than Tylenol products) to help me fall asleep, and doctor-prescribed Diazepam (valium) when it's particularly bad.


On a similar thread this summer, many people were outspoken about "au natural" and not using drugs/medicine to aid in sleeping. The truth, however, is that little to no sleep can severely impact the enjoyment of a hike. Even worse is that it is dangerous to be hiking when you are exhausted, less than sure-footed, and mentally comprimised. To these folks, I say, "Imagine attemtping a sketchy river crossing when you've been up for 48+ hours."

Best of luck.

[Busky2]

Benadryl is a over the counter med that will help you relax and drift off to sleep without long lasting effects come morning, it is cheep in generic form and $ 6.98 will get you 200 pills at Walmart. It is a antihistamine and is used to treat sneezing, runny nose, itching and other allergies

[Coffee]

I also am normally a stomach sleeper. I have found that I cannot sleep well on my stomach on the trail mainly because my knees don't do well against my sleeping pad (which in the past has been a Prolite). I have recently purchased a Neoair xlite and find that my knees do better against this pad but stomach sleeping is still not that comfortable. Before a trip, I try to transition to side sleeping at home for a few days. On the trail, my hiking style usually results in being pretty tired at the end of the day. I find that if I lie quietly on my back or side, soon enough I drift off to sleep without any meds or other steps. Being tired is the best cure for insomnia on the trail I think...

[Slo-go'en]

I guess I'm lucky in that I rarely have trouble sleeping in the woods, with a few exceptions. When it's raining. In a shelter when someone snores so loud it rattles the timbers. If I'm really cold.

However, I find that even if I think I didn't get a whole lot of sleep, just the fact I laid there for 8-10 hours is enough to refresh the body. In the winter your spending much more time laying down, well over 12 hours so it's no wonder you think you haven't slept much.

[Connie]

I have a sleeping quilt, at home, and now, for the trail because I find a mummy sleeping bag too confining.

Katabatic shows attaching the sleeping quilt to elastic cords at the top of the air mat, like XTherm.

Cascade Designs shows an accessory snap kit for their entire air mattress series, that includes the XTherm.

I intend to try elastic cord attaching above the XTherm and below the XTherm, even if below the XTherm requires a Wide quilt, for the really cold weather.

The thin but strong elastic cord is available from ZPacks, Dutchware, and DIY/MYOG like Quest Outfitters, The Rainshed.

I have recently been thinking I toss and turn too much, if I lack calcium and magnesium. Overexertion can do that. A burst of hard hiking could do that.

If I have excessive effort I have Champion Nutrition CytoMax an ounce at a time as directed. I was given a homeopathic container for leg cramps, I ignored. I don't have leg cranps.

Maybe the excessive toss-and-turn nights are the calcium and magnesium? Maybe lactic acid buildup CytoMax prevents?

I puchase the individual packets of CytoMax.

[Praha4]

Here's a couple suggestions.

a. Pillow: I used to do the same thing for a pillow, used an UL clothes sack or my Montbell UL Thermawrap jacket in it's stuffsack for a pillow, never could sleep comfortably. After reading "Lady Grey"'s Trail Journal last year, I saw that she invested in an Exped Air Pillow (med), and I got one and love it.

http://www.exped.com/usa/en/air-pillow-ul-m

b. Sleep Aid: here's a natural sleep aid that I use at home, called "Alteril", and sometimes take on the trail. No drugs, it has melatonin, tryptophan, and an herbal blend. Available at Walmart and most pharmacies and Publix.

http://www.alteril.com/

This stuff works! I must be more into REM sleep cuz I definitely spend more hours in dreamland too.

I usually sleep better on the trail now, when I spend a night in town I can't sleep when on a hike.

good luck!

[joshuasdad]

I never was able to sleep really well on the trail, but I slept "best" when:

1) in a tent or a (mouseless) shelter alone;
2) I would carry both my 50 degree down quilt and a 20 degree "backless" down mummy bag, and use one of the two as a pillow (unless it got really cold, and I needed both for warmth);
3) when sufficiently warm, especially my head and face -- balaclavas help. I hated breathing in cold air at night, as it irritated my lungs;
4) pain medication was a must on moderate/difficult days, 400 mg ibuprofen right before sleep to prevent fevers and leg aches;
5) use 32 ounce Gatorade "pee bottle" as needed...sleeping with a full bladder is no fun...

[Coffee]

+1 on a real pillow. My Exped UL pillow made a huge difference over the "clothes in a stuff sack" method.

[Rocket Jones]

As a side sleeper, most pillows aren't tall enough. I cut a small - 4"x8" - piece of firm 2" foam and put that under my Exped UL pillow for the extra height. Works like a champ. I do much better with a "real" pillow.

[Coffee]

I keep my ULA Circuit under my pillow. Same concept to increase the height a bit. It's actually a bit more of a problem with my neo air since it is 3 inches tall vs. 1 inch for my prolite.

[OCDave]

Sleep study clinic would spend some time ruling out causes:
Comfort?- If you use the same pad.pillow/sleeping bag in your own home do you have the same problem?
Readiness- Is your down time before sleep and bedtime comparable on the trail as while home?
Diet?- Caffeine intake ect differs on trail?

Med/supplements-
Melatonin- Nutritional supplement, useful when exposure to night/day light get deranged. i.e. getting a lot more sunlight while hiking than while at office cubicle.
Diphenhydramine(BENADRYL) - H2 Histamine blocker. Cholinergic effects at central nervous system cause drowsiness. Dose 25-50mg, can cause hangover effects, dry mouth, dry eyes ect.
Doxalamine (UNISOM) - comparable to Diphehydramine
Alcohol- Not likely MD recommended but my personal favorite
RX options include Temazepam, Lorazepam, Alprazolam, Zolpidem, Eszopiclode and others. Alll can be habit forming and have LONG lists of side effects.

Tough problem. Hope you find something that works for you.

[saltysack]

Thx all for the great advice... Think I'll try a different pillow set up and Benadryl to start...do any of y'all that tend to toss and turn use a quilt vs a sleeping bag in below freezing temps?


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[Miner]

Thx all for the great advice... Think I'll try a different pillow set up and Benadryl to start...do any of y'all that tend to toss and turn use a quilt vs a sleeping bag in below freezing temps?
I always use a quilt, even when its 20F. But as a tarp camper, I also use a lightweight bivy sack so drafts aren't much an issue. That and I've trained myself to tuck the edge under me after I flip onto my other side when I'm half awake. I find that after doing a few weekend trips in spring, my body gets use to sleeping on the ground (I use a foam pad) and for the rest of summer, I sleep about as well as I do at home (which still means waking up a few times during the night and changing sides to sleep on). I personally don't like using medication for anything unless there is no choice. The list of possible side affects always seem worse then the reason I'm taking it.

[Rocket Jones]

I've used my quilt during the winter, including one night down to 20* in the backyard - I was testing how far I could push my sleep system. I've never had a problem with drafts.

[juma]

Alleve helps me withe toss and turn the first few nites till I get acclimated. I quilt but around 20-25 degrees the cold drafts when you come untucked are too uncomfortable and I go to a bag.

[July]

+1 on a real pillow. My Exped UL pillow made a huge difference over the "clothes in a stuff sack" method.

I will second the Exped pillow, I also stick mine in a goosefeet down pillow sack. Talk about trail comfort.

[saltysack]

I will second the Exped pillow, I also stick mine in a goosefeet down pillow sack. Talk about trail comfort.

I've been looking at that combo....$$$$$$$ may use some of my rei dividend for the exped pillow then buy the goose feet sack...really think this will help as I'm used to a good soft feather pillow at home...hard to spend that much on a pillow but seriously considering.


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[rocketsocks]

I also have trouble sleeping, especially in less-than-familiar places.

I use OTC Benadryl (easier on your liver than Tylenol products) to help me fall asleep, and doctor-prescribed Diazepam (valium) when it's particularly bad.


On a similar thread this summer, many people were outspoken about "au natural" and not using drugs/medicine to aid in sleeping. The truth, however, is that little to no sleep can severely impact the enjoyment of a hike. Even worse is that it is dangerous to be hiking when you are exhausted, less than sure-footed, and mentally comprimised. To these folks, I say, "Imagine attemtping a sketchy river crossing when you've been up for 48+ hours."

Best of luck.

Some good advice here as well Salty sack...I have the same issue as you, reading seems to help me, sometimes benedryl.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/105669-sleeping-aides-on-the-trail

[gypsy97]

I've never had any problem falling asleep after hiking all day, but whenever I can't sleep in other situations I take a Benadryl. To me it is the best sleep aid there is when you really need one.

[Dogwood]

I find it utterly distressing that it's all too common for this pill popping nation of U.S. citizens to so quickly advise and do as usual - pop more pills - when so many alternatives are available possibly providing solutions especially when they have not yet determined the causes of someone's restless nights.

[rocketsocks]

Just returned from a quick trip from NOC to Fontana dam. I shuttled back to NOC just before dark and began the climb up to cheoah bald.. 4 hours later arrived...tossed and turned all night. Day 2 hiked to Cable gap shelter....tossed and turned all night. Day three arrived at my truck around 11. My question is I don't seem to ever get a good night sleep while out...
I use a large neoair xlite on top of a 3/4 length zlite CCF pad during the winter( dog used the other 1/4). For pillow use stuff sack with hiking pants and shirt. Bag is a marmot helium 15 down bag. Lightheart solong6 tent...which I really like! (new purchase). I tend to toss and turn a lot during the night. Last year I bought a 45 deg JRB quilt for summer. Only got to use a few times. So far really like it. I may try a 0 deg quilt for winter as I tend to tangle up in the mummy bag.

How does a quilt do in the cold winter? Maybe a better pillow set up?

Are there any medications you can recommend to help you sleep? I've never used a sleep aid but need to try for my next trip.

JACOBS LADDER kicked my a$$!! Thought I was in good shape....


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I find it utterly distressing that it's all too common for this pill popping nation of U.S. citizens to so quickly advise and do as usual - pop more pills - when so many alternatives are available possibly providing solutions especially when they have not yet determined the causes of someone's restless nights.

Dr. D it was what the OP specifically asked about.

[MuddyWaters]

Subconscious stress is a major reason people cant sleep. Work issues, spouse issues, money issues.
Fear of being alone in the woods.

[Connie]

Dogwood isn't off-topic. This is a green-thread.

The black-threads are strict, right?

I provided a relevant answer and reply, skipped over. No one really picked it up, joining in with their experience.

Look at the thread: take a pill. I don't know how anyone taking any pill, whatsoever, thinks they should have a recognized athletic achievement: 2000 miler, thru-hike, whatever.

Hiking a long trail is an athletic achievement. The standard is health. The achievement is human achievement, not drug-enhanced achievement.

It recently "came out" there is no oversight of achievement, only sign a register in two places near the start. Is that it?

Like it, or not, the world standard is no drugs. If there are performance enhancing drugs, of any kind, previously known or not, disqualification is the result.

Even the handicapped Olympics do not allow performance enhancing drugs. Their achievement is a demonstration of the level of health they have, which is considerable.

I mentioned CytoMax, because there was no direct mention of thru-hike. CytoMax is about lactic acid.

I mentioned insufficient nutrition for calcium and magnesium, because that is a most likely explanation of tossing and turning during night time hours.

Insufficient nutrition is not about disqualification. Proper nutrition is about health.

I see practically no mention of electrolytes, either, in the forum.

Recently, only, we have a physical description of the AT in terms of distance, and ascent and descent.

The AT has all but removed the achievement expected of hiking a trail (route-finding, skills for map and compass orienteering, making shelter and adequate nutrition for endurance) and, it seems to me, many participants have removed the athletic achievement, as well, with performance enhancing drugs.

I would rather "get in shape" for the trail.

I have no interest in "daredevil" "extreme sport" recently emphasized to the television audience.

Think they have performance enhancing drugs? How about drugged short of unconsciousness.

It is my impression the OP is interested in health, his health: it is not healthy to not get restful sleep and hike.

[kayak karl]

I find it utterly distressing that it's all too common for this pill popping nation of U.S. citizens to so quickly advise and do as usual - pop more pills - when so many alternatives are available possibly providing solutions especially when they have not yet determined the causes of someone's restless nights. i agree 100%. jumping right to pills seems to be the trend. nobody even takes into account how it may effect your hiking in early morn. relax the muscles and being lethargic will not help. i never sleep good 1 st especially if i only hiked 10 miles or so.

[Connie]

Altitude affects my sleeping, or, getting to sleep.

All that fresh air affects my getting sleep.

I put the covers over my head to keep that bracing fresh air off my face.

For me, a little more exhaled air feels more familiar, more like city and town air.

I am not joking around. I mean it. I throw the top quilt over my head. I sleep better.

I have a Hammock Gear Burrow 20 top quilt for "ground".

[rocketsocks]

i agree 100%. jumping right to pills seems to be the trend. nobody even takes into account how it may effect your hiking in early morn. relax the muscles and being lethargic will not help. i never sleep good 1 st especially if i only hiked 10 miles or so.

I did...

Yup, same problem, even after a day of hikin' in heat and dog ass tired. I've tried NyQuil but don't like it. It works great for me... for about 2 or 3 hours, then "Bing"...wide awake. Tylenol PM works better than that, but same side effect...again, for me. Benedryl works ok and the prescription drugs I don't recommend as they can lower ones level of having seizures if prone, and give me a headache the next day and make me feel tired and lethargic. Coarse your miles may vary.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/105669-sleeping-aides-on-the-trail

[saltysack]

Subconscious stress is a major reason people cant sleep. Work issues, spouse issues, money issues.
Fear of being alone in the woods.

Could see the stress factor but definitely not fear in the woods....I feel very comfortable in the woods alone but usually have my lil hiking buddyhttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/18/c76d8652c01b8aa1d4d1b7268de168ff.jpg......my attack 18lb jack Russell is fierce!!![emoji2]I really enjoy the peace and solitude of night hiking esp in winter....if not icy....

I see dogwoods point as I rarely take any pills.....very rare....but being tired on trail does seem to take the fun out of the hike..


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[rocketsocks]

Dogwood isn't off-topic. This is a green-thread.

The black-threads are strict, right?

I provided a relevant answer and reply, skipped over. No one really picked it up, joining in with their experience.

Look at the thread: take a pill. I don't know how anyone taking any pill, whatsoever, thinks they should have a recognized athletic achievement: 2000 miler, thru-hike, whatever.

Hiking a long trail is an athletic achievement. The standard is health. The achievement is human achievement, not drug-enhanced achievement.

It recently "came out" there is no oversight of achievement, only sign a register in two places near the start. Is that it?

Like it, or not, the world standard is no drugs. If there are performance enhancing drugs, of any kind, previously known or not, disqualification is the result.

Even the handicapped Olympics do not allow performance enhancing drugs. Their achievement is a demonstration of the level of health they have, which is considerable.

I mentioned CytoMax, because there was no direct mention of thru-hike. CytoMax is about lactic acid.

I mentioned insufficient nutrition for calcium and magnesium, because that is a most likely explanation of tossing and turning during night time hours.

Insufficient nutrition is not about disqualification. Proper nutrition is about health.

I see practically no mention of electrolytes, either, in the forum.

Recently, only, we have a physical description of the AT in terms of distance, and ascent and descent.

The AT has all but removed the achievement expected of hiking a trail (route-finding, skills for map and compass orienteering, making shelter and adequate nutrition for endurance) and, it seems to me, many participants have removed the athletic achievement, as well, with performance enhancing drugs.

I would rather "get in shape" for the trail.

I have no interest in "daredevil" "extreme sport" recently emphasized to the television audience.

Think they have performance enhancing drugs? How about drugged short of unconsciousness.

It is my impression the OP is interested in health, his health: it is not healthy to not get restful sleep and hike.There were 2 questions specifically asked by the OP...you gave a good answer to one, the other has been dismissed as fault or "off sides" of some sort.

How does a quilt do in the cold winter? Maybe a better pillow set up?

Are there any medications you can recommend to help you sleep? I've never used a sleep aid but need to try for my next trip.

why all the hatin'?

[rocketsocks]

I'm out on this one...don't care to debate any further, count sheep if ya think it might help.

[saltysack]

There were 2 questions specifically asked by the OP...you gave a good answer to one, the other has been dismissed as fault or "off sides" of some sort.

How does a quilt do in the cold winter? Maybe a better pillow set up?

Are there any medications you can recommend to help you sleep? I've never used a sleep aid but need to try for my next trip.

why all the hatin'?

July mentioned a pillow set up I've been wanting to try but a $100 pillow set up is hard to justify....think I may try....use my rei divs for the exped pillow then try the goose feet down sack. Worst case return to rei and sell gfg sack...


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[Nooga]

In what universe is benadryl or alieve considered a performance enhancing drug??????????

[rocketsocks]

Altitude affects my sleeping, or, getting to sleep.

All that fresh air affects my getting sleep.

I put the covers over my head to keep that bracing fresh air off my face.

For me, a little more exhaled air feels more familiar, more like city and town air.

I am not joking around. I mean it. I throw the top quilt over my head. I sleep better.

I have a Hammock Gear Burrow 20 top quilt for "ground".


July mentioned a pillow set up I've been wanting to try but a $100 pillow set up is hard to justify....think I may try....use my rei divs for the exped pillow then try the goose feet down sack. Worst case return to rei and sell gfg sack...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkyes he did, I was referencing this one by Connie...same happens to me, cold air in the lungs keeps me awake.

[Old Hiker]

Dogwood isn't off-topic. This is a green-thread.

............................................

Look at the thread: take a pill. I don't know how anyone taking any pill, whatsoever, thinks they should have a recognized athletic achievement: 2000 miler, thru-hike, whatever.

.......................................

so, Connie, according to you - this is my only response to you by the way, because I take 3 pills: two for prostate and bladder problems, one for possible incipient Alzheimer's, I'm NOT allowed to claim a 2000 miler achievement IF I finally make it? I take Tylenol, Aleve and Motrin for pain on the Trail and I'm not allowed to say I made it the entire way and get my certificate IF I make it?

Wow.

OP: I toss and turn a LOT. That's why I don't use a quilt. I take a pain med or two during supper. NOT just before turning in, as I think it needs a bit of time to be absorbed and start to work. I just LOOK at a box of Benedryl and I fall asleep for 12+ hours. :eek: I'm VERY sensitive to anti-histamines. I have to take Claritin or Zyrtec for my spring pollen. They don't do anything to help me sleep, though.

I'm still struggling to find the right pillow size - I'm a side sleeper and I need a fairly tall one. Plus, my dry bags are slippery and tend to slide from under my head, usually at midnight or shortly thereafter !!! If I can keep it under my head, it helps a lot.

[July]

July mentioned a pillow set up I've been wanting to try but a $100 pillow set up is hard to justify....think I may try....use my rei divs for the exped pillow then try the goose feet down sack. Worst case return to rei and sell gfg sack...


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Salty you might want to start out with just the exped pillow, it is pretty comfortable compared to others I have tried. During the hot and humid summer months, I often just stretch a Buff on it as a soft "pillow case". In the cooler temps, the goosedown sack is super comfy.

[saltysack]

Thx...ha use a buff same way over my stuff sack...love the buff


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[Old Hiker]

Salty you might want to start out with just the exped pillow, it is pretty comfortable compared to others I have tried. During the hot and humid summer months, I often just stretch a Buff on it as a soft "pillow case". In the cooler temps, the goosedown sack is super comfy.


Thx...ha use a buff same way over my stuff sack...love the buff

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Huh. Never thought of a buff for over my slick, cold stuff sacks. Thanks for the tip, y'all.

[Connie]

I use a Hammock Gear Burrow 20 sleeping quilt.

The Katabatic website shows how to attach their sleeping quilt to the top surface of an air mattress.

Cascade Designs has an accessory snap kit listed along with their air mattresses, like the XTherm.

I have an XTherm. I learned with my quilt at home to not move the quilt while moving around for side-sleeping.

If I need more, I will try the Katabatic quilt system with elastic cord around the aur mattress and attachment plastic fastener "hooks" like Dutchware maybe, first. If not effective, for me, then snaps.

My Hammock Gear Burrow 20 is huge. So far, no problem.

I can even sleep with it over my face and head.

[rocketsocks]

Salty you might want to start out with just the exped pillow, it is pretty comfortable compared to others I have tried. During the hot and humid summer months, I often just stretch a Buff on it as a soft "pillow case". In the cooler temps, the goosedown sack is super comfy.
What a great idea...goot one.

[Connie]

Old Hiker, I wasn't singling you out personally.

Yes, no recognition, yes. Personal achievement, yes.

Recognition? No.

Not w0w. This is real.

Hiking achievement is like any other athletic achievement. Especially so, for "fast packers" and speed hikers.

These trails, especially "The Triple Crown" is held up as an athletic achievement. But how many thru-hikers and mileage "athletes" are doped?

Many, from what I have read and from what I have seen of complaints and what I have seen first-hand.

For a long time, I thought these people only "say" they are thru-hiking hiking these trails. That is also true.

I strongly feel hiking trails is about fitness and health.

The fact is, all awards, worldwide, exclude performance enhancing drugs.

The more I find out, I can not respect the ATC, if it is that ATC that has "certificates" actually certifying nothing, monitoring nothing, to award "certificates".

Whatever happened to a trail patch, or, a park patch?

How about decals?

Those were real: you had to have been there to get one.

As for restful night time sleep while hiking, many people need their air mattress "just right". I liked self-inflating matresses, like ThermaRest. Then, I "dialed in" the right inflation for my NeoAir: just so my hips or elbows do not hit the floor at home. For the longest time, I preferred a CCF mat. But, then, I had "forest duff". If I had to sleep on a board, I have done it. That was a "campsite".

[Lauriep]

I find ear plugs help even when it's not noisy -- even when it's seemingly quiet. (That plus Benadryl is sure-fire for me).

I think there's something hard-wired into the brain to help your body relax when there is an absence of sound. This comes from someone who unfortunately has gotten addicted to the white noise and fake outdoorsiness of a fan to sleep in civilization.

It does help to have a comfy pillow put together. I make sure I have a stuff sack the right size to be plump with the amount of clothing I'll not be wearing that I can use for a pillow. Then wrap I wrap something soft and fleecy around the plump stuff sack--my balaclava or long johns or whatever I have.

[Connie]

For really cold air, I have PolarWrap. Botach still has PolarWrap for sale. There is another brand, now. It has plastic in front. I would wear a Turtle Fur neck wrap over that plastic one, if it was the only one.

Each one, uses the out-breath to pre-warm the in-breath.

This helps sleep, in cold weather.

This also helps prevent condensation on my down sleeping bag or down quilt, and, the inside of a tarp or tent.

Having an opinion or a well expressed "point-of-view" different than the "I-vitamin" and pills is hate?

Really?

[Connie]

I find ear plugs help even when it's not noisy -- even when it's seemingly quiet.

I think there's something hard-wired into the brain to help your body relax when there is an absence of sound. This comes from someone who unfortunately has gotten addicted to the white noise and fake outdoorsiness of a fan to sleep in civilization.

I got some rain and waterfall sounds apps in my iPod, because I could not sleep with car noise in New York city.

Maybe those sounds apps would help?

[saltysack]

Thx all for the great ideas...


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[peakbagger]

Ear Plugs made a big difference for me. I am a side sleeper, therefore I need to really overpressurize my thermarest. I use the contents of my pack stuffed in my sleeping bag stuff sack. I find that if I don't have my pillow right it can really cause sleep issues.

The other thing I will mention is if you are on statins for cholesterol, there is a small portion of the population has sleep issues from it. Most doctors don't seem to know this. Its not as much that you cant fall asleep, its that you will wake up after a few hours and not be able to fall back asleep. Its rare and it took me a couple of years to pin it down.

On section hikes, I pretty much expect that I am running a sleep deficit for the week.

Some folks sinuses plug up at night which can screw up their breathing. Nasonex does wonders but isn't cheap.

[Francis Sawyer]

Jack Daniels is the best sleep aid available over the counter.

[Traveler]

Jack Daniels is the best sleep aid available over the counter.

Not really, nor is it sold "over the counter", its still a controlled substance.

[saltysack]

Jack Daniels is the best sleep aid available over the counter.

I gave up hard liquor years back...I stick to a good IPA....


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[sympathetic joy]

Maybe download one of those apps that let you fall asleep listening to nature sounds. :cool:

[Traveler]

Look at the thread: take a pill. I don't know how anyone taking any pill, whatsoever, thinks they should have a recognized athletic achievement: 2000 miler, thru-hike, whatever.

Hiking a long trail is an athletic achievement. The standard is health. The achievement is human achievement, not drug-enhanced achievement.

It recently "came out" there is no oversight of achievement, only sign a register in two places near the start. Is that it?

Like it, or not, the world standard is no drugs. If there are performance enhancing drugs, of any kind, previously known or not, disqualification is the result.

Even the handicapped Olympics do not allow performance enhancing drugs. Their achievement is a demonstration of the level of health they have, which is considerable.



The world "standard" is not any drugs, the world standard includes specific substances and target performance enhancing drugs that would include steroids, caffeine, blood doping, etc. If you have been told anti inflammatory medications like Ibuprofen, Antihistamines, and Aspirin are "performance enhancing drugs", you have been seriously misinformed or directly lied to. Where this the case, there would be no plaques, trophies, ribbons, championships, "best of", or "fastest to do silly or serious stuff" awards ever. These medications are light weight and are very common drugs used to control inflammation. There are herbal solutions for this as well, Willow Bark, I'm not sure why anyone would tell you differently, but even Olympic Athletes are allowed take these.

Very few have ever made a world record or the 2100 mile hike without an anti inflammation medicine during the journey. By this standard, any herb like Willow Bark, Green Tea, Ginger, and Rosemary would also be considered "performance enhancing".

None of these things diminishes the accomplishment of a 2100 mile walk any more than having a cup of coffee in the morning would.

[Connie]

I have never used a drug or a "pill" to hike, mountainclimb, sail, you name it.

In 1975, I was disabled by a car wreck. I experienced pain most people are at a loss for words to describe. I still have so much pain I can only lay down, or, walk. I cannot stand 5 minutes. I cannot sit, except for short intervals.

In fact, I am a handicapped person. I have achievements: my personal achievements.

I have one award: Season Champion, Division R, Yacht Racing Association San Francisco Bay and Ocean 1974.

The only "hatin" I have experienced has been at White Blaze and Hammock forum, when I was cheated. The only times I was cheated in a PayPal purchase was from forum recommendations. Each time forum members lied. Each time threads were charged, altered, or missing. Each time forum members criticized me.

The only "oversensitivity" I have experienced is from the "I-vitamin" and pill users.

I have to think this is the problem. There is no doubt some "posts" are erratic due to drug use: "frequent flyer club" is it?

I was told about the Ignore user selection. I suggest you use it.

I am not going away.

Meanwhile, if anyone cares to "look-up" performance enhancing drugs, do so.

I am "old enough" to remember "bennies" is Benedryl. "Reds" anyone?

I am aware enough of the drug-scene, by living 18+ years in the Haight-Ashbury neighborhood, San Francisco, CA.

I have an opinion.

You have a problem with that?

[Zed]

Wow. Bennies are NOT benadryl. Never were. They refer to either benzedrine or benzodiazepines. Not benadryl.

[Connie]

Thank you, for that.

And, furthermore, calcium-magnesium I mentioned as likely helpful usually are available as "pills". :-?

[Connie]

I strongly suggest looking up "performance enhancing" drugs and stop all the nonsense.

My remarks were about "performance enhancing" drugs.

Maybe the rules for the Olympic Games will have clarification? Special Olympics?

Maybe NCAA? NFL?

I expressed an opinion and a concern.

Deal with it, move on. Whatever.

[saltysack]

I have never used a drug or a "pill" to hike, mountainclimb, sail, you name it.

In 1975, I was disabled by a car wreck. I experienced pain most people are at a loss for words to describe. I still have so much pain I can only lay down, or, walk. I cannot stand 5 minutes. I cannot sit, except for short intervals.

In fact, I am a handicapped person. I have achievements: my personal achievements.

I have one award: Season Champion, Division R, Yacht Racing Association San Francisco Bay and Ocean 1974.

The only "hatin" I have experienced has been at White Blaze and Hammock forum, when I was cheated. The only times I was cheated in a PayPal purchase was from forum recommendations. Each time forum members lied. Each time threads were charged, altered, or missing. Each time forum members criticized me.

The only "oversensitivity" I have experienced is from the "I-vitamin" and pill users.

I have to think this is the problem. There is no doubt some "posts" are erratic due to drug use: "frequent flyer club" is it?

I was told about the Ignore user selection. I suggest you use it.

I am not going away.

Meanwhile, if anyone cares to "look-up" performance enhancing drugs, do so.

I am "old enough" to remember "bennies" is Benedryl. "Reds" anyone?

I am aware enough of the drug-scene, by living 18+ years in the Haight-Ashbury neighborhood, San Francisco, CA.

I have an opinion.

You have a problem with that?

How about Viagra? [emoji2][emoji381][emoji381][emoji381]


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[rocketsocks]

I have never used a drug or a "pill" to hike, mountainclimb, sail, you name it.

In 1975, I was disabled by a car wreck. I experienced pain most people are at a loss for words to describe. I still have so much pain I can only lay down, or, walk. I cannot stand 5 minutes. I cannot sit, except for short intervals.

In fact, I am a handicapped person. I have achievements: my personal achievements.

I have one award: Season Champion, Division R, Yacht Racing Association San Francisco Bay and Ocean 1974.

The only "hatin" I have experienced has been at White Blaze and Hammock forum, when I was cheated. The only times I was cheated in a PayPal purchase was from forum recommendations. Each time forum members lied. Each time threads were charged, altered, or missing. Each time forum members criticized me.

The only "oversensitivity" I have experienced is from the "I-vitamin" and pill users.

I have to think this is the problem. There is no doubt some "posts" are erratic due to drug use: "frequent flyer club" is it?

I was told about the Ignore user selection. I suggest you use it.

I am not going away.

Meanwhile, if anyone cares to "look-up" performance enhancing drugs, do so.

I am "old enough" to remember "bennies" is Benedryl. "Reds" anyone?

I am aware enough of the drug-scene, by living 18+ years in the Haight-Ashbury neighborhood, San Francisco, CA.

I have an opinion.

You have a problem with that?

Wow...Wow....you don't know what the **** your talkin' about.

[Nooga]

Wow...Wow....you don't know what the **** your talkin' about.

I agree. This poster is clueless!

[saltysack]

This is entertaining!! I guess I'm a pill popper I took an Advil last week!


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[rocketsocks]

I agree. This poster is clueless!
I...I...I don't even know what to say....just Wow.

[rocketsocks]

I didn't really know there were so many athletic type hikers out there, they all look so....normal, maybe even a little over weight, smoking and drinkin' (not that there's anything wrong with that, hehe) eating bad diets, and returning to work on Monday.

[Connie]

If you read the start of this, Coffee made a comment. I made a comment.

Did Coffee get attacked? No. I did.

I am throwing back the same that got thrown at me.

Do you jump on that? No. You jump on me.

Clueless? I make a humorous jibe. Responding to the aspirin remark. Do I need to put a smiley face?

I was hoping it was an aspirin joke, however, the aspirin remark was clearly not meant as a humorous remark.

Your pills must have exaggerated importance for you, for you to feel the need to ridicule my opinion.

[kayak karl]

I didn't really know there were so many athletic type hikers out there, they all look so....normal, maybe even a little over weight, smoking and drinkin' (not that there's anything wrong with that, hehe) eating bad diets, and returning to work on Monday.she referred to hiking as an extreme sport in one post. hey....im honored to be an extreme athlete.:D im heading out now with the dog for an athletic adventure.

[rocketsocks]

she referred to hiking as an extreme sport in one post. hey....im honored to be an extreme athlete.:D im heading out now with the dog for an athletic adventure.


Well now there ya go, a positive spin. :)

One look at me though and there's no mistaking it...most could tell, I'm no athlete.

The only athletic thing I have is athletes feet. ;) I think there is a pill for that now. :D

[rocketsocks]

If you read the start of this, Coffee made a comment. I made a comment.

Did Coffee get attacked? No. I did.

I am throwing back the same that got thrown at me.

Do you jump on that? No. You jump on me.

Clueless? I make a humorous jibe. Responding to the aspirin remark. Do I need to put a smiley face?

I was hoping it was an aspirin joke, however, the aspirin remark was clearly not meant as a humorous remark.

Your pills must have exaggerated importance for you, for you to feel the need to ridicule my opinion.
Your right Connie, I should have used a smiley :)

But honestly it's not the opinion of yours to use or not to use sleep drugs, I could careless what one does. It's the incessant drive to inform others as to why and how they should respond to a wooded setting that has me scratchin' my head...honestly didn't mean to offend, please except my apology. i'll try an be less pithy in the future. I really do like your posts. :) and your website.

...and for the record, I could hold a candle to your resume, most impressive.

[rocketsocks]

Your right Connie, I should have used a smiley :)

But honestly it's not the opinion of yours to use or not to use sleep drugs, I could careless what one does. It's the incessant drive to inform others as to why and how they should respond to a wooded setting that has me scratchin' my head...honestly didn't mean to offend, please except my apology. i'll try an be less pithy in the future. I really do like your posts. :) and your website.

...and for the record, I could hold a candle to your resume, most impressive.

Sorry couldn't hold a candle. and I didn't know you were a women, I thought you were a dude, not that that matters.

[rocketsocks]

please don't be haightin' :D

[Connie]

Right. Good one!

[saltysack]

Everyone take a hike[emoji100][emoji90][emoji372][emoji381][emoji482][emoji377][emoji485]


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[rocketsocks]

Right. Good one! :) sorry for being a dick.

[illabelle]

The only athletic thing I have is athletes feet. ;) :D

Ha ha ha! Now that's funny. :)

[Nooga]

I pale in comparison to many on the forum, but I have hiked over 7,000 miles on long distance trails and I have never known of anyone that used performance enhancing drugs while hiking. Maybe I travel in the wrong circles…..

[Connie]

I have never known anyone that took the "I-vitamin" or aspirin or Tylenol while hiking or after: you name it!

No smiley! My "goal" after the car wreck was to get back to health: my custom-bicycle frame hung on the wall where I could see it from my hospital bed in the handicapped unit of a senior-handicapped building. My first outdoor activity was to canoe upstream on a stretch of the Russian River, then lunch and rest on a gravel bar, then float downstream to the put in - take out public access. Hiking in the mountains was my "goal". When I could walk, I went "home" to Montana. My family had six generations there. I started with the Falcon Press "Easy Day Hikes" in Glacier National Park.

I have tears in my eyes, telling this story.

I kept at making little improvements. I never went for "no pain no gain".

Now, I am back.

[Frye]

I'm so confused how this thread ended up about PED's...

Does this mean taking Motrin will get an asterisk next to your name in the ATC records?

[OCDave]

...uncomfortable silence...exaggerated smile...fop-sweat...

​psst, Connie...pain relievers and sleep aids are not considered performance enhancing drugs.

[GTStricky]

Anyway... back to our originally scheduled program...

OP how do you sleep in hotels? I ask because it always takes me 2 night to adjust to a new sleep environment. At home I roll over and I am fine but when I am away and roll over it is like my body says " hey!!! that feels different, Where the ^@&# are we?" and wakes me up.

[The Solemates]

Let me offer a different perspective. Most people I have talked to that indicate they do not sleep well in the woods do not realize one important thing.

At home, most people average 7-8 hours of sleep on a good night. Many get less than 6 or 7. In the woods, most people cook dinner, sit by the fire, maybe read a little, and then turn in.....not realizing its barely past 8:00! This is especially true in the winter when the sun goes down at 4 pm in the mountains. Then they toss and turn "all night" starting probably somewhere around 3 in the morning....and they continue to do so until they get up. That's because at 3 in the morning you have already gotten your 6 or 7 hours of sleep! You have conditioned your body to this amount of sleep.

[saltysack]

Anyway... back to our originally scheduled program...

OP how do you sleep in hotels? I ask because it always takes me 2 night to adjust to a new sleep environment. At home I roll over and I am fine but when I am away and roll over it is like my body says " hey!!! that feels different, Where the ^@&# are we?" and wakes me up.

Usually I sleep pretty good..I think getting a better pillow set up and benedrlyl I'll get a better night got sleep. Thx


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[saltysack]

Let me offer a different perspective. Most people I have talked to that indicate they do not sleep well in the woods do not realize one important thing.

At home, most people average 7-8 hours of sleep on a good night. Many get less than 6 or 7. In the woods, most people cook dinner, sit by the fire, maybe read a little, and then turn in.....not realizing its barely past 8:00! This is especially true in the winter when the sun goes down at 4 pm in the mountains. Then they toss and turn "all night" starting probably somewhere around 3 in the morning....and they continue to do so until they get up. That's because at 3 in the morning you have already gotten your 6 or 7 hours of sleep! You have conditioned your body to this amount of sleep.

I've been there before but lately I never really dozed off for more than an hour or so....


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[ATAdam]

Anything with the following ingredients should help..
Valerian Root, California Poppy maybe try dream release from mega foods.

Get a good inflatable pillow.. and hike farther.

[saltysack]

Anything with the following ingredients should help..
Valerian Root, California Poppy maybe try dream release from mega foods.

Get a good inflatable pillow.. and hike farther.

Thx....I typically do hike late and far but after a 20 mpd I still don't sleep good so I'll try out what was mentioned.


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[MuddyWaters]

I pale in comparison to many on the forum, but I have hiked over 7,000 miles on long distance trails and I have never known of anyone that used performance enhancing drugs while hiking. Maybe I travel in the wrong circles…..

You just likely didnt know that THE single most potent performance enhancing drug is.................caffeine. Banned by high school, NCAA, and IOC. Caffeine increases the strength of muscular contractions by almost 10 percent, and increases the bodys oxygen uptake capacity as well (VO2 max) Simple, effective, and the body doesnt attenuate.

When paired with ephedrine, it is potently synergistic. You can increase strength by almost 15%, but you probably wont sleep at night. Your small arteries in your brain may harden over time as well. Many people discover this combo by accident taking cold medicine with pseudoephedrine and drinking coffee.

[LonghornAT]

You just likely didnt know that THE single most potent performance enhancing drug is.................caffeine. Banned by high school, NCAA, and IOC. Caffeine increases the strength of muscular contractions by almost 10 percent, and increases the bodys oxygen uptake capacity as well (VO2 max) Simple, effective, and the body doesnt attenuate.

When paired with ephedrine, it is potently synergistic. You can increase strength by almost 15%, but you probably wont sleep at night. Your small arteries in your brain may harden over time as well. Many people discover this combo by accident taking cold medicine with pseudoephedrine and drinking coffee.

Caffeine isn't banned, it is only banned if secretions are above the threshold limit. It would take a lot of caffeine, taken directly before testing, to fail for it.

[shelb]

I struggle to sleep the first 3-4 nights of a hike too. While I may feel exhausted, I think my body just doesn't want to sleep.

Like Solemates said, hikers have different sleeping habits on the trail than at home. My regular rhythm doesn't catch up to my trail exhaustion for a few days.

After 3-4 nights, I find myself adjusting and having no problem crashing at hiker midnight and getting up before dawn to hike...

[Toon]

I'm sure you have heard this before. I'm six foot three, 220 pounds. Never slept well in tents for years. Switched to a hammock two years ago and haven't used a tent since even in winter weather.

[OCDave]

I'm sure you have heard this before. I'm six foot three, 220 pounds. Never slept well in tents for years. Switched to a hammock two years ago and haven't used a tent since even in winter weather.

I also hammock when ever possible. Even when I am home, I will sleep overnight in my hammock in the backyard a few times every month; (daily naps when the weather is mild). Once on the trail, there is nothing strange or unusual to which to get acclimated. I sleep as comfortably if not more so in a hammock than in my bed.

[takethisbread]

Anything with the following ingredients should help..
Valerian Root, California Poppy maybe try dream release from mega foods.

Get a good inflatable pillow.. and hike farther.

These might be helpful for a section hiker or car camper, but to a thruhiker, dietary peculiarities and and inflatable pillow isn't practical. It takes time to get used to sleeping outside, but it improves as you get used to sleeping on a pad with a bag of raingear or shirts ect as a pillow. Also hiking over twenty mile days helps


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[Nooga]

Caffeine isn't banned, it is only banned if secretions are above the threshold limit. It would take a lot of caffeine, taken directly before testing, to fail for it.

I agree. I failed to mention weed, however in the context of hiking, I don't think it is a performance enhancing drug, although it is listed as a banned drug.

[DLP]

Just returned from a quick trip I never sleep well on quick, overnight trips any place. Doesn't matter if it is a quick trip backpacking, or a hotel, or to my parents - it is hard to sleep on night one, and often two. I will intentionally plan a short day on day two because I KNOW I'm getting a crappy night's sleep the first night.

Backpacking... I generally start sleeping well about night 3 or 4 and my tent/tarp becomes "home".

I haven't read all of the replies, so hopefully this isn't redundant.

I often take Advil PM on the first couple of nights.

[saltysack]

I never sleep well on quick, overnight trips any place. Doesn't matter if it is a quick trip backpacking, or a hotel, or to my parents - it is hard to sleep on night one, and often two. I will intentionally plan a short day on day two because I KNOW I'm getting a crappy night's sleep the first night.

Backpacking... I generally start sleeping well about night 3 or 4 and whatever shelter I am using becomes "home".

I haven't read all of the replies, so hopefully this isn't redundant.

I often take Advil PM on the first couple of nights.

Yep..unfortunately most off my trips are less than 2-4 nights....good point...


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[rikkitikkitavi]

You can try using a grind sheet, under a bivy/tent, a foam thermarest, an inflatable sleep pad, and your sleeping bag/quilt. I imagine that would be toasty. The ground sheet and thermarest foam pad UNDER an inflatable is a good combo.

[saltysack]

I use a foam thermarest under my neoair during the winter...


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[Connie]

I "cowboy camp" with a bivy most nights. I have Star Walk app in my iPod Touch. I fall asleep daydreaming and looking at the stars.

If wide awake at night, rarely, I could listen to a downloaded podcast, an audio book, or read a book. That never happens. But I could. I almost always get sleepy, if I start in with "reading" a book: some audio book "voices" practically lull me to sleep.

[RYE_TYLER]

Exped large pillow and a Goosefeet Gear down pillow case.. You'll sleep like a baby. Originally I'd gone with the medium to cut weight, but the large for a few ounces more is like heaven.

[saltysack]

Exped large pillow and a Goosefeet Gear down pillow case.. You'll sleep like a baby. Originally I'd gone with the medium to cut weight, but the large for a few ounces more is like heaven.

Thx...sounds good...daaam it's an expensive pillow set up! Hope it's worth it!


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[July]

On the flip side, you can always use a dedicated stuff sack and stuff with pine needles, leaves, various debris... throw a pine cone in for good measure :) Upon rising, use said material for cooking mornin' coffee, or whatever.

[English Stu]

]On the flip side, you can always use a dedicated stuff sack and stuff with pine needles, leaves, various debris... throw a pine cone in for good measure :) Upon rising, use said material for cooking mornin' coffee, or whatever.[/QUOTE]

I gave up doing that when I realised there could be ticks in it.

On the odd time I wake up and cannot get back to sleep I resort to the alphabet- naming towns starting with A, works with any subject ;plants; trees; dog breeds;food. I rarely get past H before I drop off. This process takes your mind of the issue that you cannot get to sleep.

[Possum Bill]

I've had a lot of trouble in the past too. I'm a side sleeper so an inflatable pad really helped that. I use the Exped, and can sleep on my side now without touching the ground. And then I've switched to hammock in good weather, and don't really need a pillow for that, but I use my pack and stuff sack for a pillow when I sleep on the ground. The hammock has helped my sleeping tremendously. Finally I usually pop a Xanax. I normally backpack alone so I'm usually passed out before I have time to hear things in the woods. :-)

[WILLIAM HAYES]

take melatonin you can buy it at wally mart and two benadryl tabs you will sleep like a baby and stay off the caffeine before turning in