Totally annoyed.... [Archive]

CynJ

10-27-2005, 22:37

I'm getting more and more annoyed with going to outfitters looking for gear. Its like the minute I say that I am new to backpacking they deduct 30 IQ points. :mad:

And I hate how they act like my jeans and flannel shirt are the devil's spawn. One even went so far as to eyeball my clothes and went all fashionista on me saying "you're not going to wear that in on the trail right" :datz I know that lightweight synthetics are good and cotton is bad. But I'm not in the woods right now am I? you rocket scientist you....idiot.

You all have read some of my questions - I don't think I am a total moron. Why do they insist on treating me like one?

And sometimes browsing is just browsing - I want to look around and check out some stuff in person.

And no I don't want to buy a $90 tshirt. And maybe I don't want a self-inflating pad. And no I don't want a canister stove. And you can stick your titanium spork right up your .......:sun

Sorry gang just venting. Makes me appreciate internet shopping even more.

Almost There

10-27-2005, 22:45

That's ok, I'm convinced with each new crop of workers at REI they're gear knowledge drops significantly. Took my wife to try on packs last weekend and we went there first. My wife is 5ft 2in, short torso, long legs, and a size 8. I know what I am doing but get a guy anyways to get her sized properly, I ask him what size does he think, now I'm thinking she's a small, maybe even an x small. He looks at her and goes "medium" In the end after 20 minutes he admits she is in fact an xtra small. In the end we went to smaller outfitter where I know the guys are more informed than I. We settled on a small Osprey Ariel 60, that fit her like a glove. Moral to story...stay away from chain outfitters unless you know exactly what you want...I actually learned this last April, but she wanted to try this time.

Jack Tarlin

10-27-2005, 22:47

Sorry you're having trouble. Outfitters are like anything else, there are good ones and so-so ones, and this goes for employees, too. Maybe someone who lives near you can suggest a better store.

If you travel north, the Outfitter in Williamstown MA is excellent; so are the two in Manchester Center, VT. And lastly, if you and your husband find yourselves this far North this fall or winter, I'd be happy to go out with you guys to the Eastern Mountain Sports store in nearby West Lebanon, which has a superb staff.

Andin the meantime, if you have any questions regarding gear or possible choices, you can always ask them here.

Last comment.....Internet shopping is fine for some items, but for things like boots or your pack, it makes a lot more sense to do this in a good outdoors store, with the assistance of someone who knows what they're doing. You should also make sure you get in and out of the sleeping bag you select BEFORE you choose it. Spending six months in a bag you hate is a real drag.

CynJ

10-27-2005, 23:14

Thanks for the offer Jack! I will keep it in mind :)

What I've been trying to do is just go in and look and price things out and try some stuff out. I can do all the reading in the world about a product but its not the same as putting your hands on it.

And WB is awesome for bouncing questions off of folks - I am in awe sometimes just how willing to share their knowledge and personal experiences this group is.

Whistler

10-27-2005, 23:34

I know that lightweight synthetics are good and cotton is bad. But I'm not in the woods right now am I? you rocket scientist you....idiot.That's hilarious. I've ended up in gear stores in all manner of dress. Sometimes fresh from a hike [well, "fresh" isn't the ride word...], sometimes in shirt and tie. The service is a little bit different. I'm getting recognized as a regular, though, and I usually turn the help down, so I generally get left alone.

Speaking of costuming, I really like seeing people get dressed up for REI Scratch/Dent sales. It seems like those are the days that people break out the leather boots and zip-off pants more than other times I'm in the store.
-Mark

Almost There

10-27-2005, 23:47

Go into a big chain store fresh from a summer hike in your stained kilt. No one came anywhere near me to talk. I guess they don't consort with Hiker Trash!...and before you say it, the stains were just dirt and sweat!

Just Jeff

10-28-2005, 00:03

Haha...that's just how gear stores are. When I go in to look, I tell them just that - just looking. Usually that's enough...the guys who really know (and don't work on commission) will just leave you alone and let you look because they don't have to prove to you that they know what they're talking about. If they keep bugging me (rare), I'll just tell them, "I'll come find you when I have a question." I've never had to get more explicit than that.

I had a great little outfitter near me in Charleston. I knew about as much as he did (he had lots of watersports stuff and backpacking was only one of his lines), but when I had a question he couldn't answer, he didn't try to BS me or pressure me to something else - he looked it up right then at his computer, or called the manufacturer, or told me he'd get back to me later. I respected that - he didn't have anything to prove, and left me alone until I needed help. I paid a little more for some products just to give him my business.

So I just take outfitters with a grain of salt, knowing that for most of them backpacking is just a hobby and not a passion. More knowledge here, anyway, and it's easier to ignore the people you don't want to talk to. :)

Almost There

10-28-2005, 00:11

Lucky for me Mountain Crossings isn't that far, and High Country is a small shop heading into Buckhead area of ATL, both shops have great guys who are all involved in hiking.

RedneckRye

10-28-2005, 00:22

I've worked at a small outfitter for the last 6 years, what is kinda funny to see are the folks who "dress up" to go shopping. Really, is it necessary to put on your best synthetic zip-off pants, lite fleece shirt, and down jacket to go shopping for another fleece? For alot of folks, that seems to be the case.
Find a solid shop in your area, or at least within a reasonable drive, and become a regular. Ask the same questions to several folks that work there, ask them again, try stuff on, make them look stuff up for you, ask for catalogs, etc, etc. You will figure out who at the shop is "the guy/gal" who can give you the info you need. It used to irritate me when someone would ask "Do you actually backpack?" and I suppose my answer to that got a bit long every once in a while as I rattled off my where/when/what list.
When it comes time to actually buy stuff, spend your $$ at the shop where you got your questions answered and got to touch and play with the gear, even if you found whatever super-lite/awesome doo-hickey somewhere on line for a few dollars less.
Just my $.02.

Just Jeff

10-28-2005, 01:46

what is kinda funny to see are the folks who "dress up" to go shopping.
The Patagucci outlet in Santa Cruz is having a presentation tomorrow night from a mountain climber (sponsored climber and all that). I can't wait to see how many folks show up all decked out to climb up the...uh...stairs into the store!

SGT Rock

10-28-2005, 01:48

gsingjane

10-28-2005, 06:32

Try not to let it bother you. Once you've been in the store a few times, they will get to know your face and start acting differently, but until then, remember that gear store clerk is often not a very high-paying job, and people take their amusement where they can! This attitude is not unique to camping stores; I went into a local running shoe place last week to look at some new trail runners and the clerks treated everybody like they had never taken a single step down the street (I have been running since I was 12 and I'm 48 now!). The kid before me got insulted and left, which I can't imagine is too good for business, either.

It's too bad that the choice is often between big-box retailer where people don't know a stove from a sleeping bag, vs. patronizing and condescending clerks at the small store, but there you have it. I may get flamed for this, but I also think that certain clerks are a little more patronizing towards women bp'ers, also, or at least they figure they can get away with a bit more easily.

Jane in CT

Frolicking Dinosaurs

10-28-2005, 07:08

Moral to story...stay away from chain outfitters unless you know exactly what you want... Excellent advice.

CynJ, increasingly I am buying my base layers at places like Target and making my outerwear or finding it in the men's activewear dept. There are many outfitters in the closest large town (Knoxville) area, but only one where I trust what the staff has to say.

GsingJane has a point about the attitude toward women BP'ers. I have also noticed a difference in how I am treated as opposed to my 22 yo grand-daughter and 17 yo grandson (the only grandkids that like to BP :() when we go shopping together. It burns my buttons that the clerks seem to think that because I'm a bit older than the average hiker and using a cane that I don't know anything about BP'ing. I was BP'ing before some of the clerks' parents were born. While that doesn't make me an expert, it does mean I've had the opportunity to try a lot of different things and have the experience to know the latest isn't always the greatest.

Lone Wolf

10-28-2005, 07:33

CynJ, go to the outfitter and try on all the stuff you want, figure out what you're gonna buy then go online to Campmor and order it. Save a ton of $$.

Marta

10-28-2005, 07:37

It burns my buttons that the clerks seem to think that because I'm a bit older than the average hiker and using a cane that I don't know anything about BP'ing. I was BP'ing before some of the clerks' parents were born. While that doesn't make me an expert, it does mean I've had the opportunity to try a lot of different things and have the experience to know the latest isn't always the greatest.

Have I noticed this? Oh, yeah. But instead of getting annoyed, I am amused. Many of the pups working in the shops are so young they have not yet learned some basic lessons about lots of things, including 1) giving other people respect until the earn the lack of it, instead of the other way around and 2) interesting people come in all shapes and sizes and genders and clothing. They also have not become old and wily enough to know that they should conceal what they're really thinking.

So as a customer, I sometimes sink to using costuming to advantage, especially in ski shops. Souvenirs from European or western ski areas work especially well. Name dropping is low, but also effective... :D

rickb

10-28-2005, 07:49

go to the outfitter and try on all the stuff you want, figure out what you're gonna buy then go online to Campmor and order it. Save a ton of $$.

How could you even think of doing that!

For all Wolf's "wisdom", he now come on line with this lame brain idea. He just doesn't get it. Is saving a 'buck" all that important! How is it you get to hike all the time anyway? Did you rob a bank? Or was it a little old lady?

No, there are better ways. One thing you can do is buy everything at EMS or LL Beane and use it for a couple hundred miles, or a couple thousand, and return it when you are done. Sure, you loose the interest on the money you spent, but at least you have something at the end (reference to what you can spend it on omitted out of a sudden flash of restraint).

Lone Wolf

10-28-2005, 07:50

Exxon/Mobil. But I don't hike all the time. I have two cats, a Hog and a lawn to care for.

Hammock Hanger

10-28-2005, 08:22

It is funny that this topic should come up. Just Monday I was at our local outfitters. I even had on an AT shirt. I was basically looking, as this shop is more of a yuppy shop with a few good items mixed in. I like to use a local shop verses always sending my money to a non-local via the internet.

Anyway as usual it was a NEW group of guys there, no way one can become a regular if the staff is not regular. I said I was just there to look, but do you happen to carry Aqua Mira?? He said no but they have Polar Pure and he knows that everyone on the AT carries it. I said well, not really. I saw some but I saw more Auqa Mira. He said well Polar Pure is what the THRU-HIERS use and they should know. I said well I've done the whole trail and I still beg to differ. He continued to act as if I was uninformed. He showed me a few other options. I told him I wasn't sure as I have not used any of that crap (well maybe I said stuff) before as I just drank. Told him I would think about it. As I walked away he said I wouldn't let money keep me from being safe on the trail. Who said anything about money.

I walked around looked at a lot of over priced stuff that would be totally un-needed on a backpack trip. Had a few other guys come over, each talked to me as if I knew nothing about backpacking, even when you try and let them know you have miles of experience they just seem to keep going in the same direction. Eventually I got annoyed picked up some dried beans and a new ball hat and left.

Only to come home and order what I wanted online from my old outfitter in Orlando. That made me feel that at least I was still contributing to a local shop, sort a.

I was pretty lucky with the outfitters I dealt with on the trail but then I guess I looked more like a hiker and not some old lady with an AT shirt on.

RLC_FLA

10-28-2005, 08:59

I stopped by my local outfitters just last week thinking about getting a new pair of lightweight boots for my upcoming trip to N Ga. Walked in the shop, the lady clerk/salesperson came over, I told her what I was looking for. She asked what weight pack I would be carrying, I told her 30-35#. She asked me what kind of boot I was using now, told her full leather, but thought I would like to try a different lighter shoe. Her recomendation based on pack weight and my weight, 260#, that I would be better off using my full leathers because of the support etc that they gave vs a light weight boot.

Most stores would have tried to sell me what I asked for, not what I needed. Sure I walked out without spending any mony , this time, but I'll be back.

I think what makes the difference with this particular store was that the people who work there actually get out in the woods and bushes and DO things, they aren't just some college kids who are working part time while in school.

http://www.adventuretampa.com/Home.htm

RLC_FLA

GA->ME '89

Almost There

10-28-2005, 09:09

Heyyy! I like my synthetic zip off pants, they're comfortable. Rarely hike in'em actually. In the ATL I usually wear a fleece jacket, don't take it on the trail, and I'm in the process of collecting AT shirts from different trail town outfitters. My weekend wear, you might say. Rarely do I wear my trail clothes out and about. Most of my Patagonia stuff is purely for the trail. (I know some of you will say...too expensive, but I only shop their web sales when their performance gear is half price. Got the R4 for $35, it's bright yellow/gold, but who cares, it's for the trail and it works)

I agree however, with the freshly groomed folks who play at being the outdoorsman in their freshly ironed patagucci gear. I saw a guy the other week wearing zipoffs that had been ironed! Sacriledge, doesn't he know they haven't gained character until some of the threading starts to come undone, and you have that one stain that just won't come out!

Two Speed

10-28-2005, 09:44

Lucky for me Mountain Crossings isn't that far, and High Country is a small shop heading into Buckhead area of ATL, both shops have great guys who are all involved in hiking.I've got to second the comment about Mountain Crossings. Was in there this last weekend looking at packs. Being the picky sort they were having trouble finding something that fit my requirements (some of which may be conflicting. :datz)

Rather than trying to cram me into something that didn't suit me they loaned me a pack to play with. As it turns out I don't like that one either, and I'm going to return it, but they did give me a chance to look at it in detail instead of pushing something that I didn't want. Yeah, they want to make the sale, but they also want you to come back.

Can't say anything nearly as nice about the REI stores in the Atlanta area. IMHO REI's just fine if you know exactly what you want, but don't bother going there if you want expert advice.

vipahman

10-28-2005, 09:44

I'm convinced with each new crop of workers at REI they're gear knowledge drops significantly. Ahhh yes, the systematic lowering of quality and standards that's taking place in almost every profession and being replaced with inaction and bureaucracy. :eek: That's why I quit my last job 2 1/2 years ago. Couldn't stand the idiocy. But that's another vent.

So far I've had good experiences at Campmor (about 100 miles away). They are helpful and even point me elsewhere for stuff they don't carry.

rickb

10-28-2005, 09:44

My local local REI has a bulletin board set up with photos of some of their employees on thier adventures. Not a bad idea, since it can help start a conversation about the outdoors, before you ever get into gear.

My best experience in a shop was in Gorham, NH. We were in to buy gloves, but before you could say pyro, the owner had a Trangia out on the counter and he actually lit it up. I had never seen one up to that point. Needless to say, he made the sale.

The only thing I hate about outdoor stores is having to show some restraint and keep my mouth shut when overhearing the salespeople make thier pitch to others. Not like here at all. ;-)

Hammock Hanger

10-28-2005, 09:49

CynJ

10-28-2005, 10:02

I really like a store that works with the customer, I will return there.

Another note, when I go to an outfitter with my husband they always talk to him instead of me like I'm a child and he knows best. My husband laughs and says she knows a hell of a lot more then I do, better ask her.
lol...I get this a LOT! Especially at places like Home Depot and Sears hardware :rolleyes:

The best one though was this idiot at the Dodge dealer where we got our truck - note the "our". I didn't have anything planned and told my husband I could take it in for its schedule maint. - this idiot (another customer) in the waiting area says "so your husband let you take the truck today"?? I hadn't had coffee yet that morning and sorta went a litte biotchy on him :D I thought the sales guy hanging out was going to wet his pants.

The place I've had great luck and service with so far is the EMS in the Meriden Square Mall. Great folks. I'm thinking about a road trip to Campmor too.

tlbj6142

10-28-2005, 10:04

As I walked away he said I wouldn't let money keep me from being safe on the trail. Who said anything about money.And AM is way more expensive than Polor Pur.

Back on topic...

My biggest compliant about outfitters (good or bad) is that they always push the heavy stuff and treat anyone who wants to carry a 20# base weight like their are living on the edge. Unfortunately, the newbee customers are just as bad as they have been spoon fed information from BP'er (which has actually lightened its tone a bit in the past year or two) or from "old-school" books/websites.

They always tell me that lightweight backpackers don't buy stuff so they don't carry it. Seems like a chicken and the egg issue if you ask me. But, then, the staff has to be willing to talk about it as well.

Here's my favorite example.....

I was watching a guy try on packs. The salesman walked away (to get a different sized pack/belt from the stock room), so I asked the guy what he wanted the pack for. He said weekend stuff, maybe 3-day trips max. I said what about the Nimbus Ozone (the only lightweight piece of gear in the store) its a great pack. I can carry gear for 3 in it, so you ought to be able to put 1 person worth of gear in it for a 3-day weekend. He started to try it on, but then the salesman returned. He asked the saleman about the Ozone. "Well, that pack is lighter than Pack X [a 6-7# pack] and has about the same pack volume, but it doesn't have 'features'".

That's when I realized they sell "features" not products or ideas. I also get the feeling that they carry brands that give them the most profit (which is fine), but they push the models that give them the most profit not necessarily what is best for the customer.

I really shouldn't say more, as at least one of the employees reads this board regularlly and knows I post here often. But, then, we have this same conversation every time I visit.

I also think they don't have a real desire to push "good stuff" because they in a very, very afluent part of town. I have been there when a 50 something yuppie women shows up to buy $250 hiking boots so she can walk her dog in the city park [I seriously saw that happen.]. So, in a way, they don't really need to be a good store, they just need to carry the right brands at the right prices (high, no one buys cheap stuff) to make money.

Youngblood

10-28-2005, 10:20

...
Can't say anything nearly as nice about the REI stores in the Atlanta area. IMHO REI's just fine if you know exactly what you want, but don't bother going there if you want expert advice.
A few years ago I had more of an interest in all the new gear and current products as I was replacing a lot of my gear after my thru hike with lighter weight stuff. At that time I think I could walk into REI's camping section and give a competent presentation on most anything they carried, with tradeoffs and comparisons to other pieces of gear. Not anymore. For one, I'm not looking at replacing my gear but the biggest reason is the explosion in the number of items they carry. And it is not just what they stock in that store, it is also what they list on the web. Go to their web site sometime and look at all the options they have for a sleeping pad for example. I don't think you're going to find anybody that knows a whole lot about ALL of that stuff.

Did you know that they sell color coordinated Nalgene bottles with optional splash guards? Sue, what colors do you use... do you use a different color for the splash guard? :D

Youngblood

Skyline

10-28-2005, 10:41

My experience with REI--"way" back when I was a newbie--wasn't that they were condescending with me. Ha! What this "experienced" salesperson saw was a sucker to be preyed upon!

Sold me ALL the wrong stuff--and who was I to argue? A huge Kelty Tioga external frame pack, a square (non-mummy) sleeping bag good to 40 degrees at best, a heavy Thermarest pad, a 6-lb. tent, boots that didn't fit at all, and lots of real JUNK like a half-pound candle lantern (the tent they sold me had no way to hang it, even if it would have been a good idea)...you get the picture.

I portrayed myself as someone who needed help/advice, would be hiking solo most likely, and wanted to learn enough to someday hike a big chunk of the AT. This is what I got. It's ALL been donated to a non-profit organization since.

I have since learned a lot more (but we NEVER stop learning!) and have developed a network of resources I can rely upon for good advice and service. That includes some good independent outfitters along the Southern AT plus venues like the Gathering/Trail Days/Rucks, and sites like White Blaze.

Singe03

10-28-2005, 10:53

We had a new store open in Houston called Gander Mountain so I went to check it out expecting it to be mostly geared for hunters, fishermen and car campers and I was not surprised.

High point was when an employee came to talk to me as I was looking at sleeping bags and wondering where I could rent a crane to lift one on to the flatbed I'd need to haul it to Springer. His sales pitch: That bag was the "best" they had, would keep me warm down to the teens, you could tell it was quality because it had a good weight to it. :eek:

Part of the problem I think chain stores have is that they are just limited on opportunities to hire people who know what they are talking about. Unless they catch someone like us who is looking for a disposable job to save some money for their next trip, their staff is going to be similar to Wal-Mart's in experience and knowledge. Turnover is too high to make getting most of their staff actually trained by gear manufacturers cost effective.

I'm not impressed by REI, but it is a virtual hikers utopia compared to Gander Mountain (which I'm sure is wonderful for their target audience, we are just not their target audience). I'll stick with Whole Earth Provisioning company if I have question or want to buy, its a weird place, based on location(s) my expectations were very low when I first went. When I walked in I was shocked to see one of the sales people fixing a very used MSR stove for a customer and even more shocked to learn 2 of 6 people working that day were former thrus. That place and whiteblaze were the two best steps I took to go out in 2003.

neo

10-28-2005, 15:06

most of my gear is made by hikers for hikers,we are all on different levels here,

but nobody likes to be intemidated by people that think they are above others
i just do no not pay attention to people like that at outfitters shops,being here on white blaze is a great place to learn,i have been backpacking for over 35 years and i am still learning,i have learned a lot from fellow hikers on the trail
you are at the right place,happy trails to ya always cynj:cool: neo

QHShowoman

10-28-2005, 17:25

I love Campmor. I used to live within a 30 mins drive, but sadly, have since move out of easy driving range. The only not so great thing about Campmor is that they are closed on Sundays and close relatively early on Saturdays (6pm)!

CynJ

10-28-2005, 17:40

Not that I wish irritation and annoyance on anyone but its nice to know that I am not the only one getting a "tude" at some of these shops. :D

Hammock Hanger

10-28-2005, 18:55

Not that I wish irritation and annoyance on anyone but its nice to know that I am not the only one getting a "tude" at some of these shops. :D
Misery loves company...:o ;)

justusryans

10-28-2005, 20:31

Not that I wish irritation and annoyance on anyone but its nice to know that I am not the only one getting a "tude" at some of these shops. :D
people piss me off!:D

smokymtnsteve

10-28-2005, 20:42

people piss me off!:D

U should move back to AK...we ain't got many people Up here.

and HIGH percentage of the ones we do have are MENTAL ...

YEAH..I fit rite inn ;)

COME HOME!

Youngblood

10-28-2005, 21:18

U should move back to AK...we ain't got many people Up here.

and HIGH percentage of the ones we do have are MENTAL ...

YEAH..I fit rite inn ;)

COME HOME!Is it harder to adjust to the long summer days where the sun never really rises very high on the horizon or to the long winter nights were it gets a tad chilly? How much do you think the unusual daylight in AK contributes to the mental thing?

smokymtnsteve

10-28-2005, 23:22

Is it harder to adjust to the long summer days where the sun never really rises very high on the horizon or to the long winter nights were it gets a tad chilly? How much do you think the unusual daylight in AK contributes to the mental thing?

I find the summers and constant daylight to be the hardest to adjust to.

I Love the winter the best....course I'm outside, enjoying the bright moon light and Northern lights,,,

and yes I think the light cycles to contribute to the high rates of the "mental thing"

also there is a LOT of the "End of the road" syndrome in AK.

Old Spice

10-28-2005, 23:30

CynJ: I can really relate to what your saying. I live in NYC and get pegged as a "hipster" by a lot of people due to the way I dress and the music that I enjoy. I went into an outfitter last week and the clerk assumed that I knew squat about the gear I would need to do a thru-hike. As it turned out, I started explaining to him why his recomendations were not neccessarily prudent ones (i.e. he would have had me purchase everything I could possibly need) I didn't really get mad though, since I was also making asumptions about him based on what he was wearing. Who knows, the fact that was wearing carharts and hemp does not precude the very real possibility that he may know more about bands like the Smiths than I do. Anyhow, there is a place for making judgments based upon appearances, but we have to be open to the fact that things may not always be as they appear.