Right of trail use issue

[Traveler]

An interesting encounter yesterday that begs a question.

We finally got some snow to snowshoe on, so my hiking pal and I went into a large track of undeveloped land in CT where there are miles of road access "trails" that deliver you to various places you can bushwhack or get onto narrow lane footpaths, both of which are perfect for snowshoeing. Last Friday we went into the forest and there was virgin snow, no tracks of any type. So in we go, 14" deep powder (with the unfortunate selection of MSR trail shoes making trail breaking difficult). We wandered around for a while, then came back out using our broken trail and saw cross country skiers had used our broken trail for their sport. We trudged out along the same line of trail we made going in. No one said a cross word and we exchanged pleasantries as they passed us.

Fast forward to yesterday (Sunday), we went to the same entry point that seemed very well used by skiers. The original trail we had broken in a few days earlier was there, but had a ski track square in the middle of it. Since there were two other tracks, we stayed with our original path and ventured deeper into the forest. We went past the point where we turned around Friday and again we broke trail in fairly deep snow for about three miles and turned around to use our trail back out. About a mile into the return we ran across ski tracks in our busted in trail (exiting for a view that is nearby) but didn't think much about it until we were approached about a mile from the entry point by a rather worked up fellow.

The rather worked up skier wanted to let us know that his "groomed" ski trail was necessary due to the wax he used and please stay off of the "groomed" trail with our snowshoes. Though we tried to tell this fellow he was actually making a trail on top of ours and we were not interested in breaking snow both ways, he literally exploded in anger. Where he caught up to us we were walking alongside the ski track as we were closer to the entry point and there was now an established snowshoe trail and pointed out where it was possible, we indeed did stay off ski tracks. We also pointed out skiers that day had created three tracks in the woods road that left no room for snowshoes (the center track was in our established shoe track) and asked him which lane we should take (in an effort to highlight his hysteria was not logical), to which he replied we should get off the road and break new trail in the wood line. Oy.

Since we are normally on narrow footpaths in terrain that isn't suitable to skiers, this is the first time I have seen this happen. I have seen skiers for years plow through fresh snow, run along icy sections of trail, and not even slow a little if they hit a bootprint or snowshoe print in their "groomed" tracks. I have never seen this kind of problem with skiers before, nor has anyone said anything cross when trails merge into one and are used by foot traffic, snowshoes, or skis.

So my question is this, is this some kind of unwritten rule to not step on ski tracks when they are put down on trails we just busted in? I avoid ski tracks whenever possible as I do understand skiers prefer an intact track, however I have never heard of anyone demanding snowshoers stay off the newly broken in trail they just made to accommodate a skiers sense of ownership.

Is this a one off thing, or are there a mess of self entitled skiers who will make this kind of scene? If the latter, I need to avoid these unpleasant folks, if the former all I need are polite but snappy comebacks to whining people.

[rocketsocks]

Well...do you know how to make a snowball? ;)

Guy sounds like a dick to take it to that level. Honestly I've no idea of the etiquette, but that certainly wasn't it. :)

[Thinspace]

[QUOTE=AT Traveler;1942668]An interesting encounter yesterday that begs a question

We also pointed out skiers that day had created three tracks in the woods road that left no room for snowshoes (the center track was in our established shoe track) and asked him which lane we should take (in an effort to highlight his hysteria was not logical), to which he replied we should get off the road and break new trail in the wood line. Oy.

I would have strongly suggested he stay of the snowshoe track that you had created and groom his own trail apart from that.

[Turtle-2013]

I can't speak to etiquette in that particular area ... I have in past years done a lot of back-country skiing in Indiana/Michigan. But, in my opinion, your description of the events leave you entirely in the "right". Avoiding the ski track when you can, I think is a very courteous thing to do, but unless it is an area specifically reserved for skiing, you have as much "right' to the snow as they do. If you had been intentionally obliterating all of their track I might feel differently, but even then I'd just think of you as an insensitive jerk. I think you should just carry on with the way you have been doing it, and assume that he is an anomaly. Arrogant people like him would give skiers a bad name.

[Starchild]

I thought the guideline was shared single track (snowshoe/XC), separate tracks (preserve a XC glidepath) if trail is wide enough to accommodate.

[Sarcasm the elf]

You did nothing wrong, as long as you were on snowshoes and weren't postholing the you were following normal etiquette. Sounds like you ran into a jackwagon who wanted you to go of your way to accomodate his "special" kind of ski's.

[garlic08]

The skier you met really was out of line on insisting a trail like yours be left for his enjoyment alone.

I'm a backcountry skier and I occasionally snowshoe, as well. On both modes of transport, I've always had nothing but pleasant exchanges with those on the other mode, usually along the lines of, "Thank you for breaking trail," or "What a great day to be in (your state's name here)!" if the trail's established. I even like seeing snow machines at times, since they're an easy rescue if something should happen out there. Sure, when I'm on perfectly waxed skis and really in the groove, even a dog track will upset me a little. That's my issue, and I know the day follows where my head goes and then I need to work on that. When a snowshoer follows me and I need to make new tracks on the way out, I shrug and that's the way it goes some days. It's not my snow. I follow enough snowshoe tracks, and glad to do it, that things even out.

Sometimes I get a little miffed if someone fails to thank me for breaking trail, but that's extremely rare and it won't ruin my day, and maybe they're not experienced enough to realize all the work I just did. One time someone actually criticized my track, saying I should have kept it tighter and straighter! I had to just laugh at that. Then he realized what a jerk he was being and apologized and then we had a good day together, taking turns breaking trail. And I actually learned how to break a better trail--who knew?

The only time I've ever said something was when someone walked up a ski trail in bare boots, postholing through a couple of feet of beautiful snow and completely ruining the track. I told him he was single-handedly wrecking a lot of people's hard work and enjoyment that day, and nobody was going to respect him for it. He was a newb and realized he was out of his element and turned around.

Remember that two idiots arguing will at best only result in two upset idiots. But that's human nature and always will be. You will always encounter the entitlement issue on the trails as well as everywhere else.

[soilman]

The winters where I live in Ohio do not often lend themselves for ideal x-c skiing. Even still, the metroparks have designated x-c ski trails. It hacks me when you find postholes from people who are walking on these trails despite the fact they have plenty of other hiking trails to wander over. I would have no problem in other areas without designated trails to share these with snow shoers.

[peakbagger]

There are definitely local customs on this. In the whites where snowshoe travel predominate, the skiers have to live with what they got. On occasion I will see where skiers have established a track outside of the snowshoe track and I intentionally try to avoid those tracks. In a few rare places, there are groomed tracks for skis and usually there is a parallel snowshoes track but obviously in some spots there is only enough room for one. In other areas where skiers seem to prevail there does appear to be a highly level of expectation that snowshoes stay out of the ski tracks. There are a couple of large cross country ski operations near me that cater to high end folks from the city. I expect that snowshoers in ski tracks would really be frowned on.

There is pretty universal disdain for bareboot folks unless the trail is like a sidewalk.

With respect to the prior posters thread on snowmobiles, a set of ski tracks on powder can make the difference between getting hopelessly buried in snow or cruising right along especially with some of the more modern high speed sleds. There is a major snowmachine trail near me that goes by land that was posted against snowmachines. I used to go roaming the woods with skis in this posted land and it was noticeable that folks would follow my tracks with sleds. I usually would find a grown in spot with a couple of large trees not wide enough for a sled to ski through. More than once I came back and found a snow pit where the sled had to stop and obviously had to dig them selves out to get the sled turned around. With this exception, most interactions with snowmobile folks are pleasant and most groups tend to be careful to slow down and flag the folks behind them. I definitely stay to the side and get out of the way whenever I hear them nearby.

[RED-DOG]

I think i would have just let them do what they felt they needed to do and i would have just made new tracks or pelted them with snow balls and cussed them with every breath i had.

[Slo-go'en]

I stay off of snowmobile trails. I'm afraid of being run over by some speeding yahoo and I don't like breathing in their exhaust.

I know the groomed trails are set up with three tracks. Two for skis, one on each side of the trail (keep to the right, just like on the road) with the center lane for snowshoes.

Of course on narrow, undeveloped trails that's not possible. I could see how a skier following a snowshoe'er could get annoyed at having to break through the snow between each step. When I snowshoe, I try not to step in my original foot prints on the way back to flatten out the trail as much as possible.

Lets see, 3 degrees out today with blowing snow. I think I'll stay inside today :) We are finally getting some pretty decent accumulations. If your coming up to the Whites, bring your snowshoes or you'll not get far!

[Old Hiker]

Didn't choose to read the other responses.

My response: "*dirty word* you, buddy. Get out earlier, finish earlier - stay out of my tracks or find another place. Wax yourself".

[Lone Wolf]

first to the trail, first to use

[Odd Man Out]

X-country skiing is pretty big in MI (lots of snow, no mountains). The local parks have designated ski trails that are groomed. They even designate many trails to be one-way so you don't have to step aside to let people pass. Sometimes they forget to take down the one-way signs in the summer and I will get to a trail marked "one way" which confuses me for a second. In the summer, some of the ski trails are designated for equestrian use. The horse riders are supposed to stay off the hiking trails. They also tend to segregate snowmobiles, mountain bikes, and dune buggies.

[Another Kevin]

If there's a trail specifically designated for skiing - I stay off it on snowshoes. There's one local nature preserve that I don't hike in the winter because it actually puts up signage for x-c skiers - I let them have it to themselves.

If there's obviously an established ski track - I try to break a parallel snowshoe track. There's another preserve locally where that works quite well.

If the trail is singletrack and we have to share - well, the skiers will just have to take it as they find it. Most of where I hike is like this: narrow treadways hemmed in by dense vegetation. I personally think the trails are too narrow and winding to be much fun on skis, but it's obvious that there are guys out there who feel differently.

Fortunately, most of my encounters with backcountry skiers have more run to, "Great day for playing in the snow! Oh, if you want to head back on the river to the stone wall, and then up the orange trail, we broke that out for you. Looks as if you came down the north side, what's the trail like up there?" Followed by thanking each other for breaking trail, and hiking or skiing on.

Possibly sharing a complaint or two about postholers.

I do some of my hiking in places where postholing is actually illegal - you have to use snowshoes or skis any time there's over 8 inches of snow. They'll generally look the other way if you're carrying snowshoes and using crampons appropriately. Even where there's no regulation about it, if you posthole a trail, the snowshoers and skiers behind you will curse your name, so Don't Do That.

[vamelungeon]

Not much cross country skiing in my part of the world so I wasn't aware of any of this. I learned a lot from this thread.

[illabelle]

Not much cross country skiing in my part of the world so I wasn't aware of any of this. I learned a lot from this thread.

Same here.:o I feel like I'm in elementary school.

[peakbagger]

Winter hiking, snowshoes and cross country skiing is a different art than hiking without snow. In good weather, if the snow is right we can really speed up and down mountains but the same trail after a few snowfalls can really slow things down if you are the first person to break trail. The snowpack also adds interest as many times in winter the signs are buried in snow up on the summits. The nice wide trail maintenance up in the spruce fir is generally only trimmed about 8 feet high. The extra snow can cause you to be hiking up in the branches and the snow tends to load up the branches and have them bend across the trail. Every branch and tree top is waiting for an excuse to dump its load of snow and inevitably at least part of it goes down the neck. The trails that were rocky and wet in the summer are now hard and flat. Add in a couple of cold nights and bit of fresh snow and they become bobsled chutes or at least nice spot to butt slide. The major advantage in winter is the views, in the Whites, the views are frequently obscured by smog in summer while in the winter on clear day there are 100 plus miles visibilities. I frequently can see Mt Abraham and Saddleback in Maine during the winter from the whites while its rare in the summer.

The skiers definitely have the advantage on the approach trails but they have a tough time on the real steep stuff. They can use "skins" that are one way fabrics that kick into the snow when kicking back but slide forward to go up steep stuff. Unfortunately the trails are not very wide on the descent so skiers have to have really good technique to slow down or otherwise they end up out of control and into the trees. Once they get down low and back on the approach trails they blow by us snowshoe folks. I have done both in the past but hauling the extra gear slows things down, but the glide out makes things worth it.

The skiers also can do glade sking. In mature stands, the undergrowth will get packed down and covered with snow making acres of terrain for the skiers, they tend to follow the snowshoe trails up to the top of the glades and then ski out of the path carving turns between the switchbacks.

The last thing folks from down south miss out are spruce traps. Snow will cover the trees over near treeline. The snow tends to consolidate in between the trees but stays looser near the trees. If you step in the wrong place, the loose snow break lose and you fall down a hole in the snow sometimes several feet deep. The limbs lean down so as you slide down they let you slide down but stop you from climbing up. Generally its easiest to take the snowshoes off and crawl out.

[Feral Bill]

A ski track set by use is in no way a groomed trail. I ski often on machined groomed trails that are suitable for "performance" cross country skis (as well as ungroomed areas). The mule daddy you encountered needs to get his skis to a true groomed area, get skis suitable for a mixed use area, or learn to cope.

[Mags]

I wrote this little blurb about trail etiquette in the winter. (http://www.pmags.com/intoduction-to-snowshoeing-basics) Think it makes sense?


Winter recreation etiquette
With the winter trails being used by many different people (snowshoers, skiiers, sometimes even snowmobilers) it is good to remember a few different items to make everyone’s time in the backcountry a little more enjoyable:




Dogs -If you bring your furry friend, I strongly urge you to keep the dog on a leash. Esp where there are skiers, a dog off leash can run into people and cause an accident. Very few dogs can resist chasing someone moving downhill at a fast pace. For the skiers’ safety, and your dog’s safety, please be honest about your dog’s behavior and keep a dog on the leash if it is one to wander off and/or chase people. Also, remember when the trail signs say NO DOGS or DOGS MUST BE ON LEASH the signs really do mean NO DOGS or DOGS MUST BE ON LEASH



Breaks – Again, something to really keep in mind in mixed-used environments: Please try to not break at the bottom of a hill on a narrow trail. For obvious safety reasons, it is not good to be in the way of people coming down a narrow backcountry trail. Move to the side of the trail and a little aways from the bottom of a hill if you need to stop. Better yet, try to make your breaks at the top of a hill and off to the side.
Snowshoeing/Ski Trails: Some skiers are more of a stickler about this than others, but in heavily used areas, it is nice to walk on the side of the trails and not in the middle (where ski tracks usually are) of the trail. Deep in the backcountry, I honestly don’t think it is an issue. (Others my disagree). In popular areas, everyone can agree it is a nice gesture not to put snowshoe-shaped potholes in ski tracks. http://www.pmags.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif
Skier Only Trails: In some popular areas, there are SKIERS ONLY trails. Please be courteous and do not snowshoe on skier only trails. Often times, there will be parallel SNOWSHOERS ONLY trails in these areas, too.
Snowmobiles: I am not a big fan of snowmobiling to say the least, but if they are in an area legally then simply step aside, let them pass, and give a wave and a smile. In an emergency situation, guess who hauls the people out? http://www.pmags.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif
Yielding: Snowshoes are generally easier to control, more maneuverable and slower than skis (or snowmobiles). Overall, it is easier for a snowshoer to yield to a skier (esp when you are going uphill and the skier is going downhill on a narrow trail) than the other way around. When it is “snowshoer to snowshoer” on a narrow trail, it is like hiking or running – those going downhill should yield to people going uphill.


These are not rules, but just suggestions. Use common sense and courtesy above all else and every user can enjoy the winter backcounty together.

[Slosteppin]

I think there is often a difference between a "right" and common courtesy. Ignorance may also be a problem. In my part of the north country a groomed trail is a ski track set by machinery. Sometimes it is a single track and in a few places a double track with wide area for skate-skiing between. In these places it is the skiers right to the trail.

Most places I ski the ski tracks are just set by the skiers. Yes, after a heavy snowfall the first few skiers work for their fun. Snowshoers have just as much "right" to the trail as skiers. Most people who are new to snowshoes do not know (some don't care) that walking on ski tracks makes it difficult for skiers - it is just an easier place to walk.

When I use my skinny skis I prefer to follow a ski track. When I use my snowshoes I prefer to make to make my own trail.

[canoe]

Didn't choose to read the other responses.

My response: "*dirty word* you, buddy. Get out earlier, finish earlier - stay out of my tracks or find another place. Wax yourself".
Yep as well as kiss my dirty word

[Traveler]

If there's a trail specifically designated for skiing - I stay off it on snowshoes. There's one local nature preserve that I don't hike in the winter because it actually puts up signage for x-c skiers - I let them have it to themselves.

If there's obviously an established ski track - I try to break a parallel snowshoe track. There's another preserve locally where that works quite well.

If the trail is singletrack and we have to share - well, the skiers will just have to take it as they find it. Most of where I hike is like this: narrow treadways hemmed in by dense vegetation. I personally think the trails are too narrow and winding to be much fun on skis, but it's obvious that there are guys out there who feel differently.

Fortunately, most of my encounters with backcountry skiers have more run to, "Great day for playing in the snow! Oh, if you want to head back on the river to the stone wall, and then up the orange trail, we broke that out for you. Looks as if you came down the north side, what's the trail like up there?" Followed by thanking each other for breaking trail, and hiking or skiing on.

Possibly sharing a complaint or two about postholers.

I do some of my hiking in places where postholing is actually illegal - you have to use snowshoes or skis any time there's over 8 inches of snow. They'll generally look the other way if you're carrying snowshoes and using crampons appropriately. Even where there's no regulation about it, if you posthole a trail, the snowshoers and skiers behind you will curse your name, so Don't Do That.

This is kind of how I have always viewed this issue and how snowshoes should be managed when there are combined use trails, but not having any kind of formal or informal information.

We don't have many exclusive xcountry skiing trails near me, there are a couple of places that have them, but we tend to avoid them as they are not all that challenging and are pretty open. Most all of my experience with snowshoes has been free of skiers with exception as Kevin notes of some who prefer the back country challenges. Those we have run across in the back country tend to be quite pleasant and have similar dislike for postholers as we do.

We honestly do try to avoid ski tracks when we find them whenever possible, opting to walk to the side of them or in the middle of a road when there were two sets. When we break in trail on snowshoes we will try not to walk in each others shoeprint so we have a better platform on the return leg, which makes it attractive to skiers I'm sure. We broke approximately 8 miles of trail over the weekend, which all of our initial tracks were quickly turned into ski lanes and caused the "issue" with someone who was looking for an issue. We took the position our broken trail was ours to use on the way out, but I am curious why the skiers did not opt to create their own tracks given the differences in treadway needs.

Thanks to everyone who responded. Not having run across this before, it was a bit unnerving as I like to think I understand backcountry and trail etiquette well. From this exchange I know the problem was isolated and consensus of how to better use snowshoes on combined use trails.

[Mags]

I think the key with any etiquette is do your best to be polite and courteous and assume everyone really wants to do the same. Makes things smoother.

[Another Kevin]

Same here.:o I feel like I'm in elementary school.

The kindergarten-level summary: "Don't leave messes for other people." :)

[lemon b]

Got to be careful and know where you are. Saw a Big Old Sign. Cross Country Skiers and Hikers welcome. But if you do not like my snowmobile, than Please stay off my Farm. Which you are on.