View Full Version : GSMNP shelters and hammocks--what did you do?
slbirdnerd
02-05-2015, 13:22
Continuing my section hiking nobo this year (early-mid June) and planning Winding Stair Gap to Erwin (includes GSMNP). I should be all excited, the Smokies are beautiful, right?. But I'm not--I'm just cursing the required use of shelters. While I do plan to qualify for a thru-hiker's permit and hope every shelter will be full when I get there, what the heck do you do if your a hammock camper and you're stuck in the (#@$!%) shelter? I can't imagine carrying a sleeping pad in addition to everything else. I can't slepe on the ground/floor (hence, the hammock) and I really, really hate shelter mice.
What are other hammockers doing through the Smokies?
wornoutboots
02-05-2015, 13:26
Take a pad with you or plan to tough it out in the Smokies. The only other option is to mail a tent to yourself to Fontana Village then mail it home at Standing Bear. From what I understand no hanging in or around the shelters.
I am a tent sleeper. I know the feeling. Although I have spent a few nights in shelters (3-4), I am not a huge fan. However, for the Smokies, I will have to suck it up. Shelters with mice it is. Although, truth be told, I have never had a single mouse in a tent with me. I know because I am usually awake until 3 am on the trail. Can't sleep there.
Even though I am going slow through the smokies, it is only 4 nights in shelters. Hopefully it wont be to bad and my lucky streak with mice continues.
slbirdnerd
02-05-2015, 14:18
AO, I was the same in a tent--couldn't sleep much at all! You might want to try a hammock--world of difference. I stayed in Low Gap and Tray shelters and had no mouse troubles at all--couldn't understand what people were complaining about. Next trip in Standing Indian Shelter, though, they were ruthless. Running all over us all night, chewing up my stuff, pooping on my stuff. I'm not afraid of mice themselves, they're cute, really, but it was just gross and annoying.
I didn't see anything that you can't hang; just you can only hang/tent if the shelter is full (and you're on a thru hike permit). If anyone has solid info on that let me know. Although, for the record, if it's true that rule is totally asinine and backwards...
Thanks for the replies!
Why is it "asinine and backwards"?
and there is a rule---search the smokies website or this website as its been covered before....
or wait til hookoodu posts it (im using phone right now and can't post it)...
from the website........
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm
8. Hammocks may only be used within designated backcountry campsites. They may not be used inside shelters and may not be attached to shelters in any way.
swisscross
02-05-2015, 16:54
It is only 72 miles.
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/gosmokies/smokies-ranger-breaks-records-for-running-the
Ha...
that was going to be my other suggestion---if ya don't wanna abide by the rules and stay in a shelter----just do it as one push...
should have trail legs by then......
from the website........
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm
8. Hammocks may only be used within designated backcountry campsites. They may not be used inside shelters and may not be attached to shelters in any way.
I have tried to find the backcountry campgrounds and cannot find a map or locations. Do you know where to find them?
Seatbelt
02-05-2015, 17:40
from the website........
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm
8. Hammocks may only be used within designated backcountry campsites. They may not be used inside shelters and may not be attached to shelters in any way.
Does this mean they can't be used between two trees close to a shelter but not attached--when the shelter is full that is??
Do you know where to find them?
on their website...............
on their website............... Can you be more specific. As I stated I looked but could not find them
put "smokies maps" into google and away ya go.............
hikehunter
02-05-2015, 19:24
most of the backcountry sites are 3 plus miles from the AT.
I did GSMNP last April, every shelter was full every night, plus the rangers were ok, I saw people hanging most nights.
baumfamily
02-06-2015, 09:07
I did the GSMNP last April also and did not spend a night in the shelters. The first night there I did put my gear on the bottom sleeping area and someone came in later and moved it over a space. I packed everything up and set up my hammock outside. I never went into another one while on the GSMNP after that.
I can only imagine that May, June and possibly July the shelters will be full.
I don't like the shelters. To crowded, full of mice and too much noise.
slbirdnerd
02-06-2015, 09:39
TN, if you don't have something helpful to add please get off my thread. He said hammocks are NOT allowed "around" the shelters and I have heard other people say that as well. They are, and yes, I already know camping of any kind is only allowed at the campsites and shelters.
slbirdnerd
02-06-2015, 09:41
And I never suggested I would not follow the rules. Way to be judgmental.
To everyone else, thank you for the helpful posts and information.
HooKooDooKu
02-06-2015, 10:29
I didn't see anything that you can't hang; just you can only hang/tent if the shelter is full (and you're on a thru hike permit). If anyone has solid info on that let me know. Although, for the record, if it's true that rule is totally asinine and backwards...
Why is it "asinine and backwards"?
and there is a rule---search the smokies website or this website as its been covered before....
or wait til hookoodu posts it (im using phone right now and can't post it)...
There are rules about hammocks in GSMNP.
First of all, hammocks are treated like tents. So basically any rule that applies to tents applies to hammocks.
So that means you can only hammock at designated camp sites (stealth camping is illegal in GSMNP).
At shelters, that means you can only hang a hammock IF you possess an AT Thru Hiker permit AND the shelter is full.
Other rules include that you can not hang a hammock from any part of a structure or shelter, and that straps must be sized to protect trees from damage.
HooKooDooKu
02-06-2015, 10:32
I have tried to find the backcountry campgrounds and cannot find a map or locations. Do you know where to find them?
Set of GSMNP maps: http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/maps.htm
Specifically the Trail Map (PDF): http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/upload/GSMNP-Map_JUNE14-complete4-2.pdf
TN, if you don't have something helpful to add please get off my thread.
ummmmmmmmmmm.................
i did provide information.............
Starchild
02-06-2015, 11:46
Last summer I was ridgerunning the Smokies and one thing I hated to do is tell those who hang, and are just traveling thru the park on a thru hiker permit, they are not allowed, even though they had no ground pad. I did note that in IIRC two or three of my ridgerunner reports, stating that backpacking is changing with new innovations and can we come up with a way to accommodate this to meet the hikers where they are. Perhaps put places to hang inside the shelters to preserve the natural surroundings. I never got a reply on that but I really feel that some who got those reports were not happy with that suggestion (it goes to many people in clubs and agencies) - this made me sad, as I did get much positive feedback for other stuff, this went silently ignored.
I did have some hangers ask me if there was any problem with them taking an all night hike and returning in the morning taking their gear with them for that night hike just in case. Technically that is allowed although everyone knew what they were going to do. And yes showed up in the AM nice and rested to continue from their refreshing all night hike.
slbirdnerd
02-09-2015, 09:51
Last summer I was ridgerunning the Smokies and one thing I hated to do is tell those who hang, and are just traveling thru the park on a thru hiker permit, they are not allowed, even though they had no ground pad.
Hi, Starchild! You're the perfect resource! Can I confirm, you were only telling them they couldn't hang by the shelter if the shelter wasn't full, right? It is my understanding, from the GSMNP rules, that you CAN hang at (not in, of course) the shelter if the shelter is full.
I understand not wanting people to create new camps and I personally wouldn't do that, but I would like to see them allow hammockers on a thru permit to hang at the shelter areas regardless of whether there is room in the shelter or not. Hammock camping is very much LNT! The only concern I could see would be possible tree damage, and for that stipulate straps must be used and not ropes.
If you are passing through during April or may you can pretty reliably depend on the shelters to be full. That was the case during my AT hike. I hung with no problem every night.
Monkeywrench
03-08-2015, 09:16
I know some consider this crazy, but when I liked through GSMNP I had my pad mailed to me, then I followed the rules and slept in the shelters. After the park I mailed the pad back home and went back to hanging every night.
Been said before elsewhere, but good advice, I think. Bring a pad AND your hammock through the smokies. That way you can sleep on a platform if required to, or hang if you can. I brought a neo air, and was always able to hang with it, and you may also be that lucky. That pad is now the least used piece of equipment I own. the only way I could do that section without worrying was to have a pad with me in case.
Starchild
03-08-2015, 18:53
Hi, Starchild! You're the perfect resource! Can I confirm, you were only telling them they couldn't hang by the shelter if the shelter wasn't full, right? It is my understanding, from the GSMNP rules, that you CAN hang at (not in, of course) the shelter if the shelter is full.
I understand not wanting people to create new camps and I personally wouldn't do that, but I would like to see them allow hammockers on a thru permit to hang at the shelter areas regardless of whether there is room in the shelter or not. Hammock camping is very much LNT! The only concern I could see would be possible tree damage, and for that stipulate straps must be used and not ropes.
Sorry for the delay I just found this.
You can hang if both you have a thru hiker's permit and the shelter if full.
This cause some 'lovely' paradoxes, like the shelter if full with a combination of thru's and in-park backpackers. Everyone is tucked in for the night then a reservation holder comes in after dark wanting to hang and not having a pad. No dice. A thru must get out of their warm bag which is on top of their cushy theromrest and leave to tent and you must sleep on the hard wood floor.
And yes if you hang it can not be attached to the leantoo structure in any way. (this is actually good as the forces that a hammock can place on the supports is in far excess of the weight of the person)
LNT is part of it but more of a inertia issue, we do it this way because we have done it this way in the past. The park simply classifies hammocks as tents and is slow to consider the LNT impacts of hammocks given the popularity at least as far as policy changes that I have seen.
Slo-go'en
03-08-2015, 21:22
this is actually good as the forces that a hammock can place on the supports is in far excess of the weight of the person
Didn't study Physics did you? The weight of a person is equally divided between the two supports. The problem is the walls are not designed to support a weight pulling in from the side. The walls and posts are designed to support a weight pushing straight down from above. Therefore, it could be possible that a hammock could pull the wall in from the side.
Actually, that's not very likely to happen, given the overall ruggedness of a Smoky Mt shelter, but still it's not the place to put a hammock. Those shelters are crowded enough already, you don't want to have a hammock in the way too. People would have to crawl under you to get out and take a wizz.
dale1627
03-08-2015, 22:30
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/08/b5305591f9d6b06b0c0a024a4b0ef48e.jpgI've hung in the Smokies at a shelter before. I did it in good conscience based on the "Official App of the Great Smokey Mountains National Park". I later read the online rules and they are worded differently. Here is a screenshot of the rules as shown in the android app.
dale1627
03-08-2015, 22:35
I should clarify, I hung at a shelter, not in a shelter.....
I just started a thread about a hammock thru hikers gear review, and here's an excerpt regarding use in the Smokies...
What about the Smokies?
I was worried that it would be a problem going through the Smokies, as I understood the rules were along the lines of "if there is room in the shelter, you must sleep in the shelter." This seemed like it was pretty widely disregarded, even in the presence of ridgerunners. Everyday I saw tents and hammocks go up outside the shelters before they were full. And even if you did feel bad about setting up outside, you only needed to wait until 4 or 5pm for the shelters to fill up, and then you could set up outside within the constraints of the rules. Maybe this would be slightly different if you don't go through the Smokies with a large bubble of hikers, but there were easily 50 thruhikers at the Fontana Hilton the night before I entered the Smokies. If you start anywhere near April 1st, this is likely to be the case. And I never saw a ranger in the Smokies. they are kind of a rare breed, as only a handfull of them cover the whole park. I saw 4 ridgerunners and 1 park management employee who was carting around a news reporter doing a story on graffiti in the shelters. The ridgerunners were always polite. I had a permit, but they never even ask to see it. Only asked me if I had it.
That being said, I did spend one night in a shelter in the Smokies. My friends were staying inside. It was raining outside, and close to freezing. Some other thruhikers had zero'd at the shelter and collected a massive pile of firewood. It was a pretty easy decision. I did happen to find a Klymit X-frame torso length sleeping pad in a hiker box in Franklin, NC. Like the one in the link below. It only weighed a few ounces, and I carried this as my insurance policy through the Smokies. It helped me sleep through the night in the shelter, through I can't personally recommend it for frequent use. If I were to go through again, I wouldn't worry about a mattress.
slbirdnerd
03-09-2015, 08:33
Thank you, Scope! I'm feeling less apprehensive about the whole thing now. I also figured I can check the shelter reservations before I go and see if they are full of vacation/section hikers. That might help me gauge whether to take a pad.
Ladyofthewoods
03-09-2015, 15:55
When I was there couple of years ago during hiker season, my registration was 'looked at' by both ridgerunners and ranger. They also were telling folks who tried to put up a tent before the shelter was full to wait til 8pm or so to see if shelter would fill. Just never know.
Starchild
03-09-2015, 17:44
Didn't study Physics did you? The weight of a person is equally divided between the two supports. The problem is the walls are not designed to support a weight pulling in from the side. The walls and posts are designed to support a weight pushing straight down from above. Therefore, it could be possible that a hammock could pull the wall in from the side.
Actually, that's not very likely to happen, given the overall ruggedness of a Smoky Mt shelter, but still it's not the place to put a hammock. Those shelters are crowded enough already, you don't want to have a hammock in the way too. People would have to crawl under you to get out and take a wizz.
This is why we don't allow hammocks attached to shelters as some hikers do not know physics but think do.
Here is a site where you can see how much force can be applied to each support in a hammock. http://theultimatehang.com/hammock-hang-calculator/
To go to a extreme change the hammock angle from 30 to 5 and you will see that a 200 lb person would exert a 1143.01 lbs force on each post towards each other to support a 200 lb hiker this does not include the additional force of 200 lbs (100 per support) to support the downward force.
HooKooDooKu
03-09-2015, 18:07
Didn't study Physics did you? The weight of a person is equally divided between the two supports. The problem is the walls are not designed to support a weight pulling in from the side. The walls and posts are designed to support a weight pushing straight down from above. Therefore, it could be possible that a hammock could pull the wall in from the side.
Apparently you did not either...
Starchild's statement is correct.
First of all, the weight will only be equally divided between the two supports if the center of mass of the person in the hammock is located exactly at the mid-point between the two supports.
Second of all, depending upon the angle of the hammock straps at the supports, the total force on even just one support can exceed the weight of the person.
As an example, if a person weights 150 lbs, his center of mass is at the mid point between the two supports, and the angle of both hammock ropes are 45º, the supports have 75 lbs of vertical force applied and 75 lbs of horizontal force applied, for a total of 106 lbs of force applied in the direction of the hammock ropes (that's each support).
Change the angle to 30º and the total force applied in the direction of the hammock ropes increases to 150 lbs - on EACH support.
So if the angle of the hammock rope is less than 30º, the forces on EACH support begin to exceed the total weight of the person.
I didn't study physics either but it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to read the rules and realize that hammocks are not to be hung in shelters in the Park......
Starchild
03-10-2015, 07:58
Also just to add to all that physics talk is the dynamic loading of the hammock, getting in and moving around with off centered weight can cause momentary spikes and vibrational patterns in the force on the supports.
slbirdnerd
03-10-2015, 08:43
And that, my friends, is how a train derails! :)
HooKooDooKu
03-10-2015, 09:45
I thought the train reached its station about a month ago when the original question was basically answered... now we're just making extra stops as the train continues past the station... :)
Starchild
03-10-2015, 10:13
And that, my friends, is how a train derails! :)
By attaching a hammock to one side of it?
Starchild
03-10-2015, 10:51
I thought the train reached its station about a month ago when the original question was basically answered... now we're just making extra stops as the train continues past the station... :)
If a train leaves Springer Mtn traveling NoBo at 4 mph and another train leaves Katahdin traveling SoBo at 4 mph where will they meet?
HooKooDooKu
03-10-2015, 12:01
If a train leaves Springer Mtn traveling NoBo at 4 mph and another train leaves Katahdin traveling SoBo at 4 mph where will they meet?
They will never meet...
Neither train will be able to figure out how the rules regarding Great Smokey Mountain shelters apply to them. The SoBo will abandon the trip at Davenport Gap while the NoBo will find that it doesn't meet weight restrictions for crossing Fontana dam.
rmitchell
03-10-2015, 22:02
Sl
Have you considered taking the Benton MacKaye trail through the Smokys? One shelter and twenty campsites.
dang.....forgot about those weight restrictions on fontana......
back to the drawing bored...........
slbirdnerd
03-11-2015, 12:14
Sl
Have you considered taking the Benton MacKaye trail through the Smokys? One shelter and twenty campsites.
I had that thought... Maybe. But then you still have to make specific reservations for the campsites, right? I don't want to box myself in. Plus, I'm not planning to be a super-purist, but my goal IS to hike the AT.
yeah....
you would still need to make reservations...
and i think (not exactly sure) but you'd be more "boxed in" with the BMT reservations that with the AT reservations..
i think that the AT reservation has a little flex to it..........
but, dont quote me on that....
You might check out this guy's story...
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/109785-Hammock-on-a-Thru
HooKooDooKu
03-11-2015, 16:40
I had that thought... Maybe. But then you still have to make specific reservations for the campsites, right?
The AT Thru permit gives you flexibility by not requiring you to commit to specific sites on specific nights. But it does limit you to camping at sites along the AT.
If you want to thru hike the BMT in GSMNP, you are required to have a general purpose permit that in turn requires you to commit to specific sites on specific nights. I seem to recall Sarge (a frequent poster about the BMT) once said that a BMT support group was working to see if GSMNP would create a BMT Thru permit similar to the AT thru permit, but so far that hasn't happened.
msumax1985
03-11-2015, 17:56
Continuing my section hiking nobo this year (early-mid June) and planning Winding Stair Gap to Erwin (includes GSMNP). I should be all excited, the Smokies are beautiful, right?. But I'm not--I'm just cursing the required use of shelters. While I do plan to qualify for a thru-hiker's permit and hope every shelter will be full when I get there, what the heck do you do if your a hammock camper and you're stuck in the (#@$!%) shelter? I can't imagine carrying a sleeping pad in addition to everything else. I can't slepe on the ground/floor (hence, the hammock) and I really, really hate shelter mice.
What are other hammockers doing through the Smokies?
I, too, was dreading the shelters. I never used one until the Smokys. And then I did it 4 days in a row after that. They really were not as bad as I expected. In mid-April every shelter was packed, not sure what June will be like. But I welcomed the shelter when snow/ice/rain was expected. Just bring earplugs and you'll be fine. You could pick up a cheap Thermarest pad and strap it to the top or bottom of your pack through the Smokys. Then mail it home or put in hiker box at Standing Bear. The Ridgerest is only $20 at REI.
Starchild
03-11-2015, 19:06
The AT Thru permit gives you flexibility by not requiring you to commit to specific sites on specific nights. But it does limit you to camping at sites along the AT.
If you want to thru hike the BMT in GSMNP, you are required to have a general purpose permit that in turn requires you to commit to specific sites on specific nights. I seem to recall Sarge (a frequent poster about the BMT) once said that a BMT support group was working to see if GSMNP would create a BMT Thru permit similar to the AT thru permit, but so far that hasn't happened.
This is actually something that bothered me about the GSMNP permit system. It does not work all that well for its purpose and is somewhat contrary to the 'wilderness' experience that many go here to experience. Having to make timetables to get to preplanned shelters seems to go against the concept of the wilderness experience that the reservation system was trying to preserve. Also the number of 'off schedule visitors' as well as no shows (unused shelter capacity) does show its deficiencies.
The thru hiker permit system extended to all (but within limits of projected availability of the overnight spots), basically state a entry point and date and exit point and date, with a intended route, may serve the park and it's mission better and make better utilization of the shelter and campsites along with greater compliance with rules.
BlindLazarus
03-14-2015, 15:21
Almost every time I've been on the trail and passed through GSMNP, the shelters are usually full. Not to mention,regular muggles can actually reserve an entire shelter for a night on Recreation.gov, and thruhikers are required to vacate the shelter if a reservation holder is present. Pretty crappy, but at least it gives you opportunity to hang. haha
Slo-go'en
03-14-2015, 15:45
Almost every time I've been on the trail and passed through GSMNP, the shelters are usually full. Not to mention,regular muggles can actually reserve an entire shelter for a night on Recreation.gov, and thruhikers are required to vacate the shelter if a reservation holder is present. Pretty crappy, but at least it gives you opportunity to hang. haha
Unless it's raining. Then half of those who made reservations won't show up. But that's later in the season when there are more tourists and fewer thru-hikers.
gollwoods
03-14-2015, 16:01
I thought non thru hiker reservations at shelters were limited. to 6 or so
Starchild
03-14-2015, 18:10
I thought non thru hiker reservations at shelters were limited. to 6 or so
They are limited to the capacity of the shelter except during thru season where IIRC 2 spots are set aside for them.
gollwoods
03-15-2015, 03:28
2 spots that is lower than I thought. I think most of the AT in the park is getting over used. What they eventually do about it who knows. But if a walk in the woods brings 300 thru hikers to Fontana one day the park will figure out something
Andrewsobo
03-15-2015, 22:15
4 spots for thrus are set aside.
Starchild
03-16-2015, 07:25
4 spots for thrus are set aside.
That's what I was gathered initially during my thru hike but I do believe I was told when working there that it was only 2 and only during the bubble (I worked there after the bubble, so there was no reserved spots) . I did check the web reservation site and it does appear you are correct, it is 4.
Once through the Smokies can I sent the pad home or will I need it elsewhere?