Sleep Pad Question

["Macgyver"]

For cold weather I have been told to use an extra foam sleep pad for added insulation. I normally use a Big Agnes inflatable pad that slides into the back of my bag. My question is should I use the foam on top of or under my inflatable pad?
OR
should I re-think my entire sleep pad system?

[Don H]

I've used a NeoAir XTherm in the low 20's with no problems. 15 oz. and packs down to the size of a Nalgene.

I used a regular (not XTherm) Neo on my thru and was happy with it. I did use a 1/8" foam pad with the regular Neo early on but it was a PIA and I dumped it in Hot Springs. Haven't needed an extra pad since going with the XTherm.

[Tipi Walter]

I slept out last night in the backyard and got up this morning to a wonderful East Tennessee snow(!)and used my usual winter two pad systems---a Thermarest inflatable atop a Ridgerest Solar foam pad. I always---usually---place the ccf pad under the inflatable as it's more comfortable although on a night of severe cold (0F) on a backpacking trip I think I discovered the ccf pad on top of the inflatable to be warmer---due I guess to the Solar pad's reflective aluminum coating.

Waking up to snow---

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Trip-163-in-March/i-hDWrX5S/0/L/WALTER%20FEB%20SNOW%20002-L.jpg

[Lyle]

What Tipi Walter says.

Can always trust Tipi Walter for cold weather advice, though most of us don't go to the extremes that he does, so don't have the gear he does. This case, by all means trust his advice. :)

[russb]

I agree with tipi, however he is very specific with the two pads. If either of those are different, the opposite might be true. For example an xtherm and a ccf pad, you would want the xtherm on top to benefit from the reflective mylar in the xtherm.

[Tipi Walter]

For cold weather I have been told to use an extra foam sleep pad for added insulation. I normally use a Big Agnes inflatable pad that slides into the back of my bag. My question is should I use the foam on top of or under my inflatable pad?
OR
should I re-think my entire sleep pad system?

Sleeping pad systems vary personally of course. The NeoAir Xtherm and/or NeoAir All Season are popular winter pads and some people use them as stand-alone winter pads---risky in my opinion as you always want a back-up if it fails at 0F. But while working these NeoAirs offer high Rvalue and good warmth. A ccf backup is excellent with these pads and can be used in a failure. My Solar pad is rated 3.5R and can be doubled up as a stand-alone pad at 7R---in case my inflatable dies and I have 12 more days at 10F.

On the other end of the spectrum there's the Exped downmats---the warmest most comfy winter pad made. I use the Downmat 9 for the coldest months of the year and it just has to be used to understand what kind of warmth is radiated back up to your body. It's like bringing a second down sleeping bag but it's underneath and doesn't get crushed and pumps out the heat (from your own body of course).

Another good system is to take two cheap inflatables, like a Thermarest Prolite with a Trail Lite or Trail Pro (all good pads) and use them together and held together with a couple homemade elastic bands---(see pic). This system works very well when you have a couple pads laying around and decide to use both.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/21-Days-in-the-Snow/i-9JkZwbR/0/M/TRIP%20153%20270-M.jpg
A two pad system using elastic to keep them together. Prolite with a Prolite Plus.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-Citico-Wilderness/i-QNxfzff/0/M/TRIP%20126%20015-M.jpg
The NeoAir All Season is also a good pad though to me it's not as firm and comfy when sitting up as my others.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-Big-Frog/i-zLkBFh9/0/M/TRIP%20134%20044-M.jpg
This is my year round go-to backpacking pad---the Thermarest 40th Anniversary---made for awhile and now discontinued so I bought up 3 of them and will keep using them until they all die. I think it's rated 4R and I use the Solar under it for most winter trips.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/Tipi-Walter-Without-Shunka/i-WBtfgDK/0/L/TRIP%20116%20026-L.jpg
In severe cold the Exped downmat 9 comes in handy as it's very warm---though subject to blown baffles so sometimes it's outside my Circle of Trust.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/16-Days-with-a-Miracle-Dog/i-dVmCNJS/0/M/BEAR%20DAMAGE%20009-M.jpg
But whatever you do, don't let your pad get eaten by a black bear.

[garlic08]

One option I use for snow camping is adding a full-length piece of Reflectix duct insulation under my usual 3/4 length CCF pad. The stuff is light, durable, and pretty cheap especially if you have some left over from an insulation job.

[Rocket Jones]

Good advice above, and I'll add my usual two cents: test for yourself. I've tried my CCF both on top of and underneath my NeoAir Trekker, and found that for me the CCF on top was noticably warmer. YMMV.

[Tipi Walter]

One option I use for snow camping is adding a full-length piece of Reflectix duct insulation under my usual 3/4 length CCF pad. The stuff is light, durable, and pretty cheap especially if you have some left over from an insulation job.

That's a good idea unless you're a comfort freak like I am. I require more than a single ccf pad. I wonder btw what your system Rvalue is? Any idea? I had the crazy thought on my last trip to get THREE ridgerest solar pads and try all 3 to see how comfy and warm they would be---Way too bulky but I wonder . . . . . a total of 10.5 R.

I need to get my solar pad and fold it in three's and just see.

[garlic08]

That's a good idea unless you're a comfort freak like I am. I require more than a single ccf pad. I wonder btw what your system Rvalue is? Any idea? I had the crazy thought on my last trip to get THREE ridgerest solar pads and try all 3 to see how comfy and warm they would be---Way too bulky but I wonder . . . . . a total of 10.5 R....

About R=6, but good reflectivity with the mylar layer so it feels warmer, I think. It's enough for what I do--on snow, -20F min, good bag, just a night or two at a time.

I was reading another forum where poster said he thought the pad was more important than the bag. I disagreed--if you follow that logic, if faced with a choice between a pad and a bag, he would take the pad. I would take the bag and would probably survive. Of course, a night on snow without a pad would be miserable if not dangerous.

[Malto]

I used to be in the camp of both a CCF mat and an air pad but no longer. the xtherm is plenty of insulation and for 99% of the hiking community the leaky pad is a non issue. (Tipi is in the 1% that goes out for days on end with such a heavy pack he could get stuck for a couple days, most are not in that situation.) I had a previous pad leak, in fact it did for about 2000 miles. A couple of breathes every few hours and problem delayed. The addition of a patch can protect you from a catastrophic issue such as a bear mauling your pad, again I think only tipi has had that happen.

As to Garlic comment on pad vs bag or quilt. While I believe you are right in that a bag is infinitely more important than a bag, that is not usually the question asked on this forum. the question is why am 8 getting cold? In this case I do believe that the pad is usually the culprit. people generally use a bag rating as a guideline in what conditions to sleep in with their gear. On the other hand, I suspect many are clueless if asked what R value should I have sleeping on snow or a cold shelter floor. Case in point, one AT hiker was talking about the snow under her pad turning to ice. that is very likely insufficient insulation.

[Just Tom]

+1 to CCF on top. I've tried both ways this season and found that my z-lite sol on top of my prolite 4 was warmer. I also tried it with my old blue CCF pad on top and under the prolite with the same result. Non definitive, non scientific, non expert, but it was my experience anyway.

[FlyFishNut]

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Trip-163-in-March/i-hDWrX5S/0/L/WALTER%20FEB%20SNOW%20002-L.jpg[/IMG]

Beautiful picture! For what it's worth, I did the coldest night out in my life and used my Thermarest atop my Ridgerest (never thought to do it the other way around - but will try it) and I was super toasty.

[Tipi Walter]

My bag is definitely more important than my pad. I can stuff my pack cover (cinch it closed) or stuff my pack liner with dead leaves and sleep on that for insulation. I can make a big pile of dead leaves and pine needles for insulation.

And to Malto's comment about leaky NeoAirs, well--I must point out the German Tourist who says, simply, NEVER TRUST A NEOAIR. I was backpacking in the Big Frog wilderness when she passed by on the BMT and told me of her woes of a busted NeoAir whereby she had to hitch many miles to Ducktown TN and get a motel room to work out a replacement. See her report here---

http://christine-on-big-trip.blogspot.de/search/label/Winter%20hike%20in%20the%20Appalachians

MORE NEOAIR FAILURES

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Sleeping-Pad-Reviews/Therm-a-Rest-NeoAir-XLite

http://www.tramplite.com/2012/04/therm-rest-neoair.html

Maybe the earlier NeoAirs were too fragile, but I'd like to try the XTherm just to see. My All Season is excellent, but I'd never take it out on a winter trip without a backup---and not just a repair kit either.

[goldbug]

Tipi, you're the man. What a gorgeous snowy morning to wake up in!! I just got a NeoAir, so I'll have to keep in mind the failure stories you pointed out. Thanks for the info!

[Davem]

Does anyone use those cheap blue Walmart pads ($7.00). I did...once! Cold wasn’t the issue but it felt like I was sleeping on a rock slab, most uncomfortable night I’ve had.

[GaryM]

I use those cheap blue wally world mats in a hammock and they work well for me. I am sure sleeping on the ground would be different. They keep me warm enough (coldest night for me has been mid 30s, Yeah, I am a wimp). If I were to sleep on the ground I would have to use an air mattress of some sort.

[Time Zone]

Does anyone use those cheap blue Walmart pads ($7.00). I did...once! Cold wasn’t the issue but it felt like I was sleeping on a rock slab, most uncomfortable night I’ve had.

Not that particular one, but the Ridgerest CCF pad by Thermarest is of similar construction. You can get used to them, but it really helps to be dog-tired. One thing that I've found that helps is, if you're a side sleeper, don't sleep in quite the same orientation as you would on a bed. position your upward-oriented hip a little past the midpoint (i.e., not quite orthogonal to your sleep surface ... between an idealized side-sleep and a stomach sleep, closer to the former).

For 100% back or stomach sleeping, I'd think a CCF pad would be perfectly fine.

A tall enough pillow really helps, though that's true for any pad. I often stuff a down jacket in a stuff sack and that helps.

[nate.2346]

Sleeping pad systems vary personally of course. The NeoAir Xtherm and/or NeoAir All Season are popular winter pads and some people use them as stand-alone winter pads---risky in my opinion as you always want a back-up if it fails at 0F. But while working these NeoAirs offer high Rvalue and good warmth. A ccf backup is excellent with these pads and can be used in a failure. My Solar pad is rated 3.5R and can be doubled up as a stand-alone pad at 7R---in case my inflatable dies and I have 12 more days at 10F.

On the other end of the spectrum there's the Exped downmats---the warmest most comfy winter pad made. I use the Downmat 9 for the coldest months of the year and it just has to be used to understand what kind of warmth is radiated back up to your body. It's like bringing a second down sleeping bag but it's underneath and doesn't get crushed and pumps out the heat (from your own body of course).

Another good system is to take two cheap inflatables, like a Thermarest Prolite with a Trail Lite or Trail Pro (all good pads) and use them together and held together with a couple homemade elastic bands---(see pic). This system works very well when you have a couple pads laying around and decide to use both.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/21-Days-in-the-Snow/i-9JkZwbR/0/M/TRIP%20153%20270-M.jpg
A two pad system using elastic to keep them together. Prolite with a Prolite Plus.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-Citico-Wilderness/i-QNxfzff/0/M/TRIP%20126%20015-M.jpg
The NeoAir All Season is also a good pad though to me it's not as firm and comfy when sitting up as my others.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-Big-Frog/i-zLkBFh9/0/M/TRIP%20134%20044-M.jpg
This is my year round go-to backpacking pad---the Thermarest 40th Anniversary---made for awhile and now discontinued so I bought up 3 of them and will keep using them until they all die. I think it's rated 4R and I use the Solar under it for most winter trips.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/Tipi-Walter-Without-Shunka/i-WBtfgDK/0/L/TRIP%20116%20026-L.jpg
In severe cold the Exped downmat 9 comes in handy as it's very warm---though subject to blown baffles so sometimes it's outside my Circle of Trust.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/16-Days-with-a-Miracle-Dog/i-dVmCNJS/0/M/BEAR%20DAMAGE%20009-M.jpg
But whatever you do, don't let your pad get eaten by a black bear.

Gotta stop inflating after supper ;)

[pettas]

This might not be new to some folks but I was taken by surprise when I found out that Big Agnes doesn't use R-values in rating their pads. I posted a question regarding the R-value of the AXL and was told they don't use that rating system. All they would say is the pad is good for warm weather backpacking and to look at their insulated model for 3 season trips. I don't know about anyone else but it will keep me from purchasing from them as there's no "apples to apples" comparison to other pads in my opinion.

That's all for now. Take care and until next time....be well.

snapper

[Midwest Mike]

I have read what a couple of people have said here -- that CCF on top of the inflatable is warmer. So I did this last March when temps got into the 20s and punctured the Thermarest. I think I will do it the other way next time.

[Longboysfan]

Thermarerst works for me - usually very well
I'm in a small Big Angas tent so there is not much chance to roll off the pad.

[cmoulder]

I have read what a couple of people have said here -- that CCF on top of the inflatable is warmer. So I did this last March when temps got into the 20s and punctured the Thermarest. I think I will do it the other way next time.

OK, but that's a separate issue; CCF on top is warmer. I've tested this multiple times in very cold weather (below 0°F).

Check your tentsite for sharps before pitching.

[Bansko]

I always put the foam pad under the inflatable. Better puncture protection, more comfortable, plenty warm.

[Venchka]

This might not be new to some folks but I was taken by surprise when I found out that Big Agnes doesn't use R-values in rating their pads. I posted a question regarding the R-value of the AXL and was told they don't use that rating system. All they would say is the pad is good for warm weather backpacking and to look at their insulated model for 3 season trips. I don't know about anyone else but it will keep me from purchasing from them as there's no "apples to apples" comparison to other pads in my opinion.

That's all for now. Take care and until next time....be well.

snapper
Right on! A few years ago when I was shopping for a new pad I discovered the BA omission of R-values.
“See you!”
I stayed with Thermarest. Very pleased after accumulating 4-5 months of nights on the Thermarest.
Wayne