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earlyriser26
03-08-2015, 12:16
Just got back from a day hike in PA. I was only going 9.3 miles. It was clear that no one had been on the trail and the snow started out about a foot and a half deep. By the time I was half way done the snow depth had increased to 2 and a half foot deep. My progress slowed from 1.5 mph all the way down to 0.5 mph. Also, you had to use blazes to tell where the trail was (a questionable thing at best). Fortunately I had a map and found a way down the hill to a road or I might still be out there. I have been hiking the AT since 1969 and this was the first time I feared that I may not make it.

MuddyWaters
03-08-2015, 12:30
a map, and making good decisions, are two separate things. I agree, maps are good. But, deviating off of established trails is a recipe for disaster. Backtracking is a better decision in most cases. Just ask people who do SAR. A common problem with people that get lost, is the inability to give up the effort they made in a certain direction (usually when taking a shortcut), because of the time and effort they have invested. They keep pushing forward, getting more lost, and into more trouble. When all they ever needed to do, was simply backtrack at the first sign of problems.

earlyriser26
03-08-2015, 14:12
First, I took an established blue blaze trail out. Second, I notified my wife of the side trail I was taking. Third, I only pushed toward the closest safe exit point which was 1.5 miles ahead instead of 5.0 miles back. Was it a poor decision to even hike? Probably. My point was something as simple as a map can be a lifesaver.

MuddyWaters
03-08-2015, 14:19
Wasnt referring specifically to you, only saying that people with maps get in trouble too. One problem is, maps dont show off trail obstacles well, in rugged terrain, people often end up injured in some way.

ny breakfast
03-08-2015, 14:42
short cuts don't always work out, what looks good on paper just may not work out in reality. conditions change and elevations change more so then what a map is going to show 100 ft elevation over 2 foot distance is different then 100 ft elevation over 1/16, 1/8 mile. etc. but I'm sure it was more than just carrying a map that got you out of there safely. weighing the variables and good decision making was more likely key to your success. majority of the time it is safest to back track the way you went in, in a timely manor or continue on even if it means staying out over night (have the means to do so)or hiking out later than anticipated.

earlyriser26
03-08-2015, 16:59
I think the key decision is always to make a decision "before" you get desperate. When you see things are going bad you have to look ahead to what the situation could become.

BillyGr
03-08-2015, 17:39
And there is a difference between using a map to head off in some direction and using a map to see that there is another trail just ahead that leads to an easier way out (even if it meant a longer walk overall, but much of that on a cleared road instead of a bad trail).
Or maybe even seeing that the trail just ahead leads to an entirely different area that could make it a bad idea to go that way (say you wind up on the opposite side of the mountain and would have to walk many miles).

rocketsocks
03-08-2015, 18:35
Stop
Think
Observe
Plan

...always works for me

trbjr
03-08-2015, 18:42
Sometimes you can't determine where you are and a map and compass becomes very helpful.

Rain Man
03-09-2015, 11:27
To me, maps have at least two qualities.

First, they are evidence of good judgment and decision making prior to ever setting foot on the trail.

Second, they are aids in good judgments and decision making while on the trail, if needed, like having matches to start a fire if needed.

Finally, I'll add that an injury, sudden illness, change of weather, or other emergency can render moot supposed options of staying put or re-tracing miles of hiking first done feeling good or in good weather. A map showing a safe, short way out can be "life or death."

peakbagger
03-09-2015, 11:39
I have used a map a couple of times to find water sources near shelters. One time at Kirkridge in the spring when the faucet wasn't turned on another time at Pochuck Shelter and one time during a very dry fall hike in the VA roller coaster area. All three times, the map saved several miles of backtracking to the last known water. I have also used a map a couple of times to figure out ways of potentially leaving the trail due to injuries that I thankfully managed to muddle through.

rhjanes
03-09-2015, 11:45
In my orienteering, one thing I'm learning to do better (sort of), is to "bail and backtrack" quicker. Forget the "but I've come THIS far" thinking....you are also getting disoriented/lost. Back track, or figure which direction will generally get you out and back to a KNOWN point, the quickest.
This year, one course, I was telling myself for around 10 minutes "this isn't right"....until I hit a trail, I used the compass to determine it was one of two possible trails, the map to decide "go north old man" to locate an EXACT spot on the map, then "relocate" to a point on the trail where I knew where I was. Then, decide on next action to take to recover, quit, turn back or what.
It works well, but remain calm and THINK.

Slo-go'en
03-09-2015, 12:00
Sometimes you can't determine where you are and a map and compass becomes very helpful.

No, that's where GPS becomes very helpful. If you can't determine where you are a map and compass aren't going to help since you don't know where you are on the map. Although if you have a map and compass and know "about" where you are, they can lead you in a direction towards something and not deeper into trouble.

My first time on the AT down south I was with a few others and approaching Standing Indian. However, we didn't think we had enough food to make it to Hiawassee. Someone had a map which showed the "Chunky Gal" trail leading off to the highway and saving us 2 days. Unfortunately, the map didn't clearly show the trail ending in a cliff above the highway! Which made for an interesting adventure to get down there.

4eyedbuzzard
03-09-2015, 12:04
Why should YOU always carry a map? Why, so all the idiots who don't can ask to borrow yours of course. :mad: If you can afford to hike, you can afford to buy a map and guide. And if you don't think you might ever need one, or don't want to carry ALL that extra weight, then stay in sight of civilization.

Gray Bear
03-09-2015, 17:33
I always have a map and compass with me. My wife gives me a hard time about the amount of time I spend looking over maps. For me its just habit to look over not just my route but good bail out options for what ever reason. Also like previously mentioned, in dry seasons a bushwhack might be the best way to water. Around here bushwhacking is something we do just to change up a hike we've done a few times. Maybe go check out a ridge or pond you can see but doesn't have a trail to it. I'm always looking at my map and altimeter to pinpoint my location,calculate progress and estimate arrival times. Its always just part of the hike for me. GPS is a cool gadget to have but electronics fail and I kinda take pride in being old school;). To give you an idea, when I was sailing a lot I tried using a sextant (unsuccessfully) to navigate just cuz the guys in the movies made it look so cool.

Namtrag
03-09-2015, 18:03
It's good to have a map, but if you don't know how to tell where you are on the map, it doesn't do a lot of good!

Debbie
03-10-2015, 09:07
Where in Pa. were you, Early Riser?

squeezebox
03-10-2015, 09:51
I've heard of enough people going the wrong way coming out of a shelter blue blaze the next morning that I plan to orient my compass to the trail any time I leave the trail.

Slo-go'en
03-10-2015, 12:04
I've heard of enough people going the wrong way coming out of a shelter blue blaze the next morning that I plan to orient my compass to the trail any time I leave the trail.

That may or may not help. Often the trail goes in every direction but North! If you have trouble remembering which way to turn when exiting a shelter, put a rubber band or tie a string around your wrist. If you turn left off the trail to the shelter, put the marker on your left wrist. Then when you exit turn left as indicated by the marker on your wrist.

squeezebox
03-10-2015, 12:14
that should work.
I'm still gonna bring maps and a compass.

blackbird04217
03-10-2015, 14:19
This may be different during the wintery season especially, or different trail systems, but I didn't take a map during my 2009 thru-hike and can't say I ever felt like I needed or even wanted one. I did have a guide book to go on, and the trail is pretty well visible and easy to follow. Maybe I just got lucky for nearly 2200 miles, but I passed each blaze minus a small flooded section where a road detour.

For some other trails, particularly less traveled, I wouldn't consider leaving without a map- or if I'd be hiking in a any amount of snow as the trail becomes nearly impossible to follow when everything glistens white, signs buried under the white stuff are hardly useful.

earlyriser26
03-10-2015, 14:27
Where in Pa. were you, Early Riser?
Hiking from PA 183 to PA 501. Took Shower's Steps trail out. Not exactly an easy out in snowy conditions.

Debbie
03-10-2015, 20:55
I remember that section-I just did it in November-totally different without the snow, I'm sure. The reason I asked is that I'm coming back up next week to start my next section from Port Clinton to Lehigh Gap.

CarlZ993
03-11-2015, 09:59
The AT is the only hike I've been on that I didn't have some sort of map w/ me the entire time. I added a map for the White as I anticipated more problems there (plus, that was one place I didn't want to get lost in). On the rest of the hike, I missed a few turns here & there (daydreaming but making really good time). I backtracked & figured out my mistake (after a session of cursing like a sailor).

Traveler
03-13-2015, 08:51
It's good to have a map, but if you don't know how to tell where you are on the map, it doesn't do a lot of good!

I guess the answer would be in the form of a question, "why would you have a map and not understand how to use it?"

AO2134
03-13-2015, 09:55
On the AT, I have never taken a map. Never felt the need. Common sense + trail guide was always enough for me. However, I plan to hike the BMT as well. I got a feeling after getting out of GA, I will need to get a map and campus and learn how to use them.

rock steady
03-13-2015, 12:19
hey! good hiking! You already know this but with a compass and map job one is put them on a level surface and ORIENT THE MAP​. take care and God bless

Tom Murphy
03-13-2015, 16:14
No, that's where GPS becomes very helpful. If you can't determine where you are a map and compass aren't going to help since you don't know where you are on the map. Although if you have a map and compass and know "about" where you are, they can lead you in a direction towards something and not deeper into trouble.


I do not often disagree with you but....

I have often used a map and compass to estimate were I was by taking a bearing on two land features and triangulating back to where I am on the map. Of course you can't do that in fog or deep woods. But that's when handrails and backstops are key.

The things I have trouble with, when off trail, is estimating my distance traveled and guessing whether or not a stream I crossed was too small to be shown on the map I am using.

Another Kevin
03-13-2015, 23:55
I do not often disagree with you but....

I have often used a map and compass to estimate were I was by taking a bearing on two land features and triangulating back to where I am on the map. Of course you can't do that in fog or deep woods. But that's when handrails and backstops are key.

The things I have trouble with, when off trail, is estimating my distance traveled and guessing whether or not a stream I crossed was too small to be shown on the map I am using.

Even that small stream is likely running down V-shaped contour lines. (Here in the East, U-shaped contour lines for a valley are a dry one; V shaped ones mean a stream.)

Another thing that really helps in the mountains is having an altimeter. As long as you've maintained some sort of siituation awareness (to the level of knowing what mountain you were on, at least!) you can often come really close to your position using just altitude and aspect of slope: "I'm at 3900 feet elevation, and the ground falls off in about direction 330 degrees" often gives you quite a narrow stretch of contour line. It essentially makes every contour line into a handrail, and it works even in whiteout or dense fog.

And, as you said, handrails and backstops are key. When I take someone on a bushwhack for the first time, I like having it be in a situation where I can say something like, "Down goes to the river, and downstream goes to the highway. The car is parked north of the bridge.

And when all else fails, does the mountain you're on have a trail at the summit? The summit is up. Go up, the trail will be there. :)

Namtrag
03-14-2015, 08:48
What he said ^^^^. Just make sure you synchronize your altimeter periodically at a known elevation!

Cotton Terry
03-14-2015, 08:57
All good stuff. Can anyone suggest a good book on orienteering?

Edit: Oh, and an acceptable compass?

4eyedbuzzard
03-14-2015, 09:04
For a thru hike, with no detours during typical spring, summer, fall conditions, and have one of the better guides, I'd agree that the guide is likely more useful on a day to day basis, and that a thru-hike can be done without maps (although they can be very useful in some areas like the Whites). Same if you know from past experience the trail(s) you are hiking. But if you're sectioning and/or doing loops and such where there are many trails, I think not carrying a map is a bad decision.

squeezebox
03-14-2015, 15:46
I would like to learn about how to triangulate

Another Kevin
03-14-2015, 22:15
There's a course syllabus here (http://www.uvm.edu/~goldbar/FM3_25.26.pdf), and a textbook here (http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/475/PMS475.pdf).

My personal recommendation is to learn with an inexpensive baseplate compass. Brunton, Suunto and Silva all have serviceable ones in the $15-$20 range. Look for one with a transparent baseplate and obviously a rotatable housing. The last time I taught a course in land nav, I offered a packet of materials that was about $40 and had a baseplate compass, GTA 5-2-12 protractor and UTM/MGRS scale, topo map of the area we were practicing in, and paperback textbook. (I don't think I have any left, this was a while ago.)

If you get into serious bushwhacking, you'll want a better compass. (And if you're doing winter mountaineering, you need one with a clinometer). But you should first learn the basics, so that you'll know whether you want a mirror sight (like the Brunton Pocket Transit series) or a lensatic (like the US military ones), and whether features like a tritium illuminator or an adjustable declinator are things you want or useless bells and whistles. By that point, you'll know someone with a better compass than yours that will let you borrow it to try it out.

If you are in halloaing distance of Eastern New York State, and want to give bushwhacking a try, drop me a line. I'm a weekender, but I get out fairly regularly and about a third of my hikes are off-trail. I'm always hurting for someone to go with.

Cotton Terry
03-18-2015, 15:02
Thanks, Kevin.

Jake2c
03-18-2015, 23:42
I'm agree earlyriser. You have been hiking a lot and if you have also used a map a lot the you are probably proficient with it and with recognizing where you are on it. Like anything else, it's not enough just to have a piece of safety equipment, you also have to be good at using it. How helpful it is, is directly related to how familiar you are with it. When I go in the woods I take a map, when I go to sea I take a chart.

fiddlehead
03-19-2015, 00:04
GPS would have been the better choice in this case.
You probably would have never had to leave the trail.

I bought all the maps for my CDT hike in '98.
I don't think anyone does that anymore.
They use Jonathon Ley maps or similar.
Which is designed to work with a GPS

GPS is the new mapping.

Gray Bear
03-19-2015, 04:11
There's a course syllabus here (http://www.uvm.edu/~goldbar/FM3_25.26.pdf), and a textbook here (http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/475/PMS475.pdf).



If you get into serious bushwhacking, you'll want a better compass. (And if you're doing winter mountaineering, you need one with a clinometer).


I never gave an clinometer much thought. I don't recall ever hearing about them being used as a nav tool. How are they used?

Traveler
03-19-2015, 07:31
GPS would have been the better choice in this case.
You probably would have never had to leave the trail.

I bought all the maps for my CDT hike in '98.
I don't think anyone does that anymore.
They use Jonathon Ley maps or similar.
Which is designed to work with a GPS

GPS is the new mapping.

GPS is a great tool, when it powers up and works properly. When it doesn't you either have a map or are holding anatomy not typically associated with route finding.