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soilman
03-12-2015, 09:29
Following social media, reading books and blogs, and talking to hikers on the trail it appears that there has been an explosion of trail magic the last several years. There seems to be trail magic at every road crossing between Hightower Gap and Stecoah Gap in March and April. I appreciated the generous contribution of calories and consumables by the trail angels when I did my thru. But the best trail magic I received was going thru NY in early July in 100 degree temps and the water sources dried up. Some anonymous trail angel left jugs of water at every road crossing. That meant more to me than any Lil Debbie I received in GA or NC. My suggestion to anyone considering trail magic in the future that they consider donating the money they would spend on trail magic to the ATC or a local trail club. If you want to spend time on the trail while doing trail magic consider volunteering for trail crew with the ATC or a local club. I think you would receive more satisfaction doing this than a belch from someone thru hiking. The results would be longer lasting and provide more benefits to hikers than a full belly.

Pedaling Fool
03-12-2015, 09:31
That's why some of us don't call it trail magic, rather use the term hiker feeds (or comparable term). Most of today's hikers don't understand what real trail magic is and it's a shame that they even call hiker feeds trail magic. Most don't see it (it seems), but hiker feeds take away from the true experience of a thru-hike. Sad.

4eyedbuzzard
03-12-2015, 10:25
^^^^^^^^^^
30205

full conditions
03-12-2015, 10:57
That's why some of us don't call it trail magic, rather use the term hiker feeds (or comparable term). Most of today's hikers don't understand what real trail magic is and it's a shame that they even call hiker feeds trail magic. Most don't see it (it seems), but hiker feeds take away from the true experience of a thru-hike. Sad.
Agreed 100%. And, I'll go one step further - it contributes to the increasing sense of entitlement that seems to be showing up in so many thru hikers these days. Making a continuous fuss over prospective thru hikers sends the message that "hey, your five month vacation is special". It aint.

Slo-go'en
03-12-2015, 11:03
That's why some of us don't call it trail magic, rather use the term hiker feeds (or comparable term). Most of today's hikers don't understand what real trail magic is and it's a shame that they even call hiker feeds trail magic. Most don't see it (it seems), but hiker feeds take away from the true experience of a thru-hike. Sad.

Why do "hiker feeds" take away the true experience of a thru-hike? The true experience of a thru-hike is walking 2200 mile and everything which happens in between.

While I'll agree feeds are not really "trail magic", their still part of the experience. And it really is hit or miss. It all depends on timing. Some might run into a number of them while others will miss them all.

True trail magic is when a day hiker loans you the keys to their car so you can run to town and get some supplies.

Rain Man
03-12-2015, 11:09
I'm not opposed to "hiker feeds," but I certainly appreciate the sentiment of donating the money and time to your local trail maintenance club. These guys are really hurting on getting enough members/volunteers to keep up with all the trail work needed.

LOTS of people enjoy the trail. Few of those actually "give back" (or "pay it forward" if you prefer).

Mags
03-12-2015, 11:42
That's why some of us don't call it trail magic, rather use the term hiker feeds (or comparable term).

I call them "hiker aid stations". Often very organized, often large and usually planned.

Much like runner aid stations at races (or bike events..I volunteered at one of those myself).

We can (and will!) discuss the impact, but these hiker aid stations are a different beast from trail magic IMO.

Yeah..another link to my website.... Easier than writing the same thing often :)

http://www.pmags.com/grassroots-to-organized-the-changing-nature-of-thru-hikes
http://www.pmags.com/trail-magic-sodas-water-caches-and-trash-oh-my

atmilkman
03-12-2015, 15:57
I think they should all get together and post a schedule and a menu. Some do breakfast, a mid-morning snack a little later on, then lunch, another snack, and finally supper. Maybe even take reservations. That way you wouldn't have to carry so much food. If they did it right, one would not have to carry any food through the whole state of Georgia and even further on. Who knows, maybe not until the Smokies. A fire and some marshmellows and beer at an area where you can pitch a tent for the night sure would be nice too. :)

Starchild
03-12-2015, 16:13
I think they should all get together and post a schedule and a menu. Some do breakfast, a mid-morning snack a little later on, then lunch, another snack, and finally supper. Maybe even take reservations. That way you wouldn't have to carry so much food. If they did it right, one would not have to carry any food through the whole state of Georgia and even further on. Who knows, maybe not until the Smokies. A fire and some marshmellows and beer at an area where you can pitch a tent for the night sure would be nice too. :)

I did see at least 2 menu's on my thru, one for breakfast placed about 3 miles before a intersection in NC/TN (Sam's gap IIRC) and one in the shelter log book in the 100 Mile Wilderness, with breakfast, lunch and dinner options for that extended weekend.

fastfoxengineering
03-12-2015, 16:19
hiker feeds are a planned event

trail magic is when two paths cross, at a certain point in time, for a certain reason.. and there's no real explanation whether it was a coincidence or not.

like when you exit a trail head, needing to go into a town, and a day hiker is loading their vehicle up at the same time you enter the parking lot.. and without you saying anything, they offer you a ride to town out of the kindness of their heart

I wouldn't say a hiker feed isnt trail magic, however, hiker feeds don't reach you like the littler things do

Coffee
03-12-2015, 16:24
How many others have issues accepting items of more than nominal value from strangers for free? I'm not sure if it is a generational thing but I find it very uncomfortable, apparently not a sentiment shared by many hikers.

perrymk
03-12-2015, 16:33
My trail magic story:

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/93412-Helpful-vs-Non-helpful-Trail-Magic?p=1440129&highlight=#post1440129

Starchild
03-12-2015, 16:56
How many others have issues accepting items of more than nominal value from strangers for free? I'm not sure if it is a generational thing but I find it very uncomfortable, apparently not a sentiment shared by many hikers.

At one time in my life I would have had this issue, then I grew down and decided that was absolutely the wrong way I want to live and not a society I wanted to be a part of.

We are all God's children and all children of the same universe, and meant to help each other in giving and receiving. We are all part of one family, the human family and we have the potential to help each other and be helped, in that there is synergy and a uplifting of all.

IMHO

Coffee
03-12-2015, 17:23
At one time in my life I would have had this issue, then I grew down and decided that was absolutely the wrong way I want to live and not a society I wanted to be a part of.

We are all God's children and all children of the same universe, and meant to help each other in giving and receiving. We are all part of one family, the human family and we have the potential to help each other and be helped, in that there is synergy and a uplifting of all.

IMHO

I don't really disagree with what you are saying. It isn't the small gesture like a cold soda but larger help that I think should be compensated at least for their out-of-pocket costs, especially those who open up their homes to hikers, feed them, provide shuttles out of their way, etc.

Starchild
03-12-2015, 17:46
I don't really disagree with what you are saying. It isn't the small gesture like a cold soda but larger help that I think should be compensated at least for their out-of-pocket costs, especially those who open up their homes to hikers, feed them, provide shuttles out of their way, etc.
Paying for it or offering to do so is not the only way, it is 'A' way which is sometimes appropriate, other times other methods like paying it forward may be more helpful.

When you received kindness, it is a obligation to pass it along as you received it, paying for it sometimes is done to avoid this obligation (again IMHO).

rickb
03-12-2015, 18:47
My trail magic story:

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/93412-Helpful-vs-Non-helpful-Trail-Magic?p=1440129&highlight=#post1440129

Perry,

I missed that-- thanks for reposting.

That is a great story. And yet, it is one of many.

Real, honest, magical AT stories like yours are so cool. You just can't make this **** up!

RiickB

MuddyWaters
03-12-2015, 20:24
I find organized mass hiker feeds border on ridiculous. Feeding people on vacation, especially when theve been on trail 4 days. Under the guise of "helping", the event throwers just want to associate with hikers. Either because they think its cool, or they miss it.

I find it sad so few of the people hiking today understand what trail magic is.

The Cleaner
03-12-2015, 23:37
Feeding hikers and hanging out with them is more "fun" than hiking in and cleaning up a shelter or joining a trail club and doing some real work. Just a freaking circus on the south end now....

rocketsocks
03-13-2015, 01:08
ser·en·dip·i·ty (sĕr′ən-dĭp′ĭ-tē)n. pl. ser·en·dip·i·ties1. The faculty of making fortunate discoveries by accident.
2. The fact or occurrence of such discoveries.
3. An instance of making such a discovery.



I always considered trail magic to be serendipitous...for both party's.

Traveler
03-13-2015, 05:50
I have not yet seen this, but would be curious if anyone else has.... Hiker "feeds" from a work party if you stop and help for an hour or two on a trail project. Seems a good way to get needed work done and a good way to get a desired meal.

stumpknocker
03-13-2015, 06:13
It has always amazed me that so few people walk past an offered hotdog or soda.
Guess it's just another part of the experience of walking the A.T.
Personally, I have always enjoyed the "trail magic" experience even though there are so many different ways to give or receive it.
I also know some people opposed to "trail magic" online who gratefully accept and appreciate it when they are out walking. I've been on the giving and receiving end of those experiences.
I've seen people turn down "trail magic" because they just didn't have a desire for it at the time….great. No one says you have to accept it if you don't want or need it.
Have only known one person who did not accept what was offered to him when he really wanted it...he explained how tempting it was. He had made a "resolution" to himself that he would only consume what he carried on that short walk of a couple hundred miles.
Whether someone wants to give to the ATC, volunteer for trail work, offer or receive a ride or a cold soda…who cares? I'm still going to do what I want and not what someone online thinks would give me more satisfaction.

Lone Wolf
03-13-2015, 06:19
these trail "magicians" need to set up their feeds out of sight of the actual trail

stumpknocker
03-13-2015, 06:27
these trail "magicians" need to set up their feeds out of sight of the actual trail

Well, I guess if I ever decide to park someplace at a trail crossing to hand out a cold soda I will remember what you said and park a mile down the road….you know, just to make you happy.

rickb
03-13-2015, 07:21
these trail "magicians" need to set up their feeds out of sight of the actual trail

Aren't you headed to Springer soon?

As a well know trail personality, what's that like?

Do you hold court and pose for pictures?

Do you ever pack anything extra for the benefit of the new hikers just getting their feet wet?

You are right about Magic and feeds, of course. Just wondering how you handle things on a person level. I used to get a tingle up my leg when meeting thruhikers on the Trail, and felt compelled to introduce myself as a member of the club-- now not so much. Used to be I assumed an automatic bond-- not now.

Lone Wolf
03-13-2015, 07:44
Aren't you headed to Springer soon?

As a well know trail personality, what's that like?

Do you hold court and pose for pictures?

Do you ever pack anything extra for the benefit of the new hikers just getting their feet wet?

You are right about Magic and feeds, of course. Just wondering how you handle things on a person level. I used to get a tingle up my leg when meeting thruhikers on the Trail, and felt compelled to introduce myself as a member of the club-- now not so much. Used to be I assumed an automatic bond-- not now.

headin' to springer next weekend. going as an observer. gonna take lots of pics of shelters, fire pits and crowding. nobody will know me. i will not eat at feeds. i'm only a section hiker

Coffee
03-13-2015, 07:50
Paying for it or offering to do so is not the only way, it is 'A' way which is sometimes appropriate, other times other methods like paying it forward may be more helpful.

When you received kindness, it is a obligation to pass it along as you received it, paying for it sometimes is done to avoid this obligation (again IMHO).

There is a clarity in paying for something in a transaction where the price is set by the seller and agreed to by the buyer. The buyer's obligation is discharged in the act of payment. Both the buyer and seller are, by definition, better off than without the transaction or the transaction would not have been agreed to. This is how I prefer to satisfy obligations for things that I need on the trail. Small gestures like a cold soda at a road crossing are basically gifts from well wishers and that's fine. You can either accept or decline and move on. Hitching, in my view, is fine since you're not really asking anyone to go out of their way. Elaborate hiker feeds, staying in a stranger's home, consuming their food and drinks, and asking for shuttles is another thing entirely. That requires payment in my mind unless dealing with personal friends where, in theory, the relationship involves a level of reciprocity not requiring "accounting" for every kindness. I don't like the ambiguity involved in accepting a bunch of things for "free" from strangers with the applied responsibility of "paying it forward" to someone else, unknown to me at the time, and at a time only known in the future. I am referring only to my own preferences and outlook on such things and not casting judgement on others, except to say that there might be a connection between what many criticize as "entitlement" by thru hikers and the habit of giving them all this stuff for "free".

full conditions
03-13-2015, 07:54
Aren't you headed to Springer soon?

As a well know trail personality, what's that like?

Do you hold court and pose for pictures?

Do you ever pack anything extra for the benefit of the new hikers just getting their feet wet?

You are right about Magic and feeds, of course. Just wondering how you handle things on a person level. I used to get a tingle up my leg when meeting thruhikers on the Trail, and felt compelled to introduce myself as a member of the club-- now not so much. Used to be I assumed an automatic bond-- not now.
Sigh....seriously? A trail personality? We have those now?

rocketsocks
03-13-2015, 07:56
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG0u3-Gbu88

4eyedbuzzard
03-13-2015, 09:41
Sigh....seriously? A trail personality? We have those now?Well, we kind of always have. Starting with the tense relationship between Benton Mackaye and Myron Avery. Then through the years: Earl Shaffer, Grandma Gatewood, Ed Garvey, Wingfoot, Warren Doyle, Baltimore Jack, Ward Leonard - all are "trail personalities" due to their hiking, some also for their writing, some for their demeanor. But then there are people like Miss Janet, Steve "The Ferryman" Longley, Winton Porter, and others who are more known for their "connection" with the AT. It's the public awareness of them by hikers that separates them from all the other plain old "noteworthy thru-hikers".

So yeah, there are lots of AT "trail personalities".

firesign
03-13-2015, 10:01
Following social media, reading books and blogs, and talking to hikers on the trail it appears that there has been an explosion of trail magic the last several years. There seems to be trail magic at every road crossing between Hightower Gap and Stecoah Gap in March and April. I appreciated the generous contribution of calories and consumables by the trail angels when I did my thru. But the best trail magic I received was going thru NY in early July in 100 degree temps and the water sources dried up. Some anonymous trail angel left jugs of water at every road crossing. That meant more to me than any Lil Debbie I received in GA or NC. My suggestion to anyone considering trail magic in the future that they consider donating the money they would spend on trail magic to the ATC or a local trail club. If you want to spend time on the trail while doing trail magic consider volunteering for trail crew with the ATC or a local club. I think you would receive more satisfaction doing this than a belch from someone thru hiking. The results would be longer lasting and provide more benefits to hikers than a full belly.

Trail magic for me, is an unplanned/random act of kindness sometimes when you are least expecting it. Example: the police officer that was going to arrest me in Palmerton for trying to hitchhike out of town and eventually drove me back to the trail without me having to wear handcuffs! This was very magical under the circumstances.

I would also say, that anyone who with sincere intentions, does anything planned to support people on the trail, should be thanked and praised for their actions, but this is not trail magic, Trail Kindness perhaps.

There is nothing in the UK that compares to kindness shown in the States towards hikers, in any situation, so for me, it was all appreciated.

Nooga
03-13-2015, 10:35
I guess it is a matter of timing, but in 2012, I didn't experience what I would consider an over load of trail magic, hiker feeds, etc. I can say that everything from a cooler of soft drinks by the trail, cold beers left in a creek, or a full blown feed in Southern VA was greatly appreciated by myself and the other hikers. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to the theory that trail magic creates the entitled attitude among some of the thru hikers. My opinion is that the source of that "entitled" attitude is long before they take their first steps on the trail.

Jake2c
03-13-2015, 10:49
I can't fault the people who provide the TM, they are just decent people who want to support someone doing something challenging. The part that is good for me is that such people exist. In my job I have become jaded, once I retire I am hoping to recharge my faith in the average American as well as a personal recharge from the trail. I have noticed though that more and more videos spend more and more time on the TM and less about the trail, or so it seems to me. If someone offers me something I will thank them and probably take a nominal bite but part of the thru hike for me is to carry what I need. If I find myself looking for the next TM hit, or starting to evaluate the quality of a gift offered, then I believe I have turned down the wrong trail.

full conditions
03-13-2015, 10:57
I guess it is a matter of timing, but in 2012, I didn't experience what I would consider an over load of trail magic, hiker feeds, etc. I can say that everything from a cooler of soft drinks by the trail, cold beers left in a creek, or a full blown feed in Southern VA was greatly appreciated by myself and the other hikers. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to the theory that trail magic creates the entitled attitude among some of the thru hikers. My opinion is that the source of that "entitled" attitude is long before they take their first steps on the trail.
I think you make some good points Nooga especially with regard to the entitlement attitude being in place beforehand. All these feeds on the south end, however, do, in my humble opinion, reinforce the notion that somehow people on a five month vacation are special - And, it also reinforces the sense of a linear, travelling party thru the woods. Its possible that this is simply a natural evolution in trail practices and that I might as well rail against the rising of the sun rising in the morning. But I do wish it would at least subside at bit.

chris.ault.37
03-13-2015, 10:59
Trail magic can happen months before a hike. This winter, I found the perfect pair of sunglasses on a clearance rank. The price wasn't marked, so I took them to the clerk and explained they would be perfect for my AT hike. He said to just take them and have a great hike. Truly magic!

Coffee
03-13-2015, 11:20
There are plenty of "entitled" people in society and that has nothing to do with the Appalachian Trail, so some hikers are going to bring that attitude with them before they every set foot on the trail. Then, when they start encountering hiker feeds and are treated as celebrities simply because of how they are choosing to spend their vacation, that attitude can become more entrenched.

The best way to receive needed services, and to keep it sustainable for those providing services, is to participate in an economic exchange. Most typically, this involves exchanging money for goods or services but barter is also possible even though it is more rare to be in a situation where two sides agree to a barter transaction vs. one for cash.

Accepting free stuff with the idea that this will be somehow "bartered" in the future by the recipient "paying it forward" is really too vague for me to be comfortable with the concept. Also, plenty of freeloaders will just take and take and never give back or "pay it forward".

There are a number of trail angels on the PCT who apparently were so overwhelmed with the increasing numbers and/or lack of donations that they have curtailed their activity or shut down entirely. Had they charged a fair market price for the very significant benefits they provide to hikers, we could all still be enjoying that "magic" this season. Personally, I would consider market transactions "magical" in the sense that I can exchange money that I've earned for goods and services that I need - and that neither side is put out or made worse off as a result.

fastfoxengineering
03-13-2015, 13:14
I think this thread is bringing out the bad side in some of us. More or less because the trail just simply isn't what it used to be.

I think we need to fall back on the only definitive hiking bylaw that we all agree with. Hike your own hike.

Trail magic is less and less as you go north, but I think the trail magic you get up north really affects you a lot more emotionally because it's always a simple gesture, but means so much to an individual. A hiker feed is probably not a memory that would stick with me.

I guess the good thing about the AT is you can be an introvert or a social butterfly. HYOH

full conditions
03-13-2015, 13:39
I think this thread is bringing out the bad side in some of us. More or less because the trail just simply isn't what it used to be.

I think we need to fall back on the only definitive hiking bylaw that we all agree with. Hike your own hike.

Trail magic is less and less as you go north, but I think the trail magic you get up north really affects you a lot more emotionally because it's always a simple gesture, but means so much to an individual. A hiker feed is probably not a memory that would stick with me.

I guess the good thing about the AT is you can be an introvert or a social butterfly. HYOH

Yes, definitely HYOH -but - that whole "Remote for detachment, narrow for chosen company, winding for leisure, lonely for contemplation, it beckons not merely north and south but upward to the body, mind and soul of man" thing has kind of gone out the window on the southern end thanks, in part, to the rolling party atmosphere that these feeds help perpetuate. But I'm an old grump.

dark side
03-13-2015, 14:30
Only long distance hikers could F-up magic. The quest for classifying everything and everyone on trail with labels to denote phylum, class, genus, and species makes me chuckle softly while weeping tears of pity for the plummeting self awareness of the hiker set. What if ancient aliens are trying to harvest human DNA and want to snatch me off a bald where the feed is a trap - should I still make a donation if I don't take an cytoplasm laced moon pie? (Poetry is where art and math meet to fool around. That's science!

MuddyWaters
03-13-2015, 19:13
I think you make some good points Nooga especially with regard to the entitlement attitude being in place beforehand. All these feeds on the south end, however, do, in my humble opinion, reinforce the notion that somehow people on a five month vacation are special - And, it also reinforces the sense of a linear, travelling party thru the woods. Its possible that this is simply a natural evolution in trail practices and that I might as well rail against the rising of the sun rising in the morning. But I do wish it would at least subside at bit.

Where are the vast majority of trail magicians when the SOBO come thru in November??

Not enough to make it a party maybe??

If you want to help, why not help those that need it most, and would be most grateful?

Feeds arent about helping. Its about being connected to the scene IMO.

If you want to HELP people, list your name and # with the ATC and allow hikers to call you, and do things free for people when they are really in need.

full conditions
03-13-2015, 19:30
Where are the vast majority of trail magicians when the SOBO come thru in November??

Not enough to make it a party maybe??

If you want to help, why not help those that need it most, and would be most grateful?

Feeds arent about helping. Its about being connected to the scene IMO.

If you want to HELP people, list your name and # with the ATC and allow hikers to call you, and do things free for people when they are really in need.
Wait - isn't that the point I was making?

MuddyWaters
03-13-2015, 19:36
Wait - isn't that the point I was making?

I dont know. I dont read more than the first couple of posts.:)

Old Hiker
03-13-2015, 20:27
Thumbed through my journal from my 2012 attempt. I can only remember a few times of real "magic":

1. Picked up by two pick-ups going back down to Hiker Hostel with Orange Lite - wasn't hitching, just walking down.

2. Cooler with snacks by Ms. Janet and crew at Spivey Gap - not sure this was magic, as I had to pay it back by attending a school meeting to add "realism" when discussing graduating seniors and volunteering on the Trail. :)

3. Mr. Booth with hot grilled cheese, chips, homemade brownies and a ride into Gatlinburg when the NOC shuttle didn't show up.

4. Allen Gap - Sampson and ?? can't remember - didn't write it down - sign at crossing for Belgian waffles, stew, dessert, etc. Was going to just eat tortillas and PBJ, but walked the few hundred meters for an outstanding meal and Christian fellowship.

5. Bubble foot finding my BDU liner and bringing it up the Trail to find the owner - me.

6. Baptist church box when I was really feeling down and wondering. No one around, but the msg inside was inspiring to me.

I missed a few advertised feeds. I didn't want to wait - I was too early or late.

I don't recall any "entitlement" at all, but then, I kept to myself mostly. A few people, Father-man (he's important) and crew in particular made efforts to include me. Most everybody was friendly and pretty self-sufficient.

Hope 2016 is no different, other than making it all the way.

Lone Wolf
03-13-2015, 20:44
Where are the vast majority of trail magicians when the SOBO come thru in November??

Not enough to make it a party maybe??

If you want to help, why not help those that need it most, and would be most grateful?

Feeds arent about helping.

I
hikers aren't in NEED of any feeds

Starchild
03-14-2015, 06:38
There are plenty of "entitled" people in society and that has nothing to do with the Appalachian Trail, so some hikers are going to bring that attitude with them before they every set foot on the trail. Then, when they start encountering hiker feeds and are treated as celebrities simply because of how they are choosing to spend their vacation, that attitude can become more entrenched.

The best way to receive needed services, and to keep it sustainable for those providing services, is to participate in an economic exchange. Most typically, this involves exchanging money for goods or services but barter is also possible even though it is more rare to be in a situation where two sides agree to a barter transaction vs. one for cash.

Accepting free stuff with the idea that this will be somehow "bartered" in the future by the recipient "paying it forward" is really too vague for me to be comfortable with the concept. Also, plenty of freeloaders will just take and take and never give back or "pay it forward".

There are a number of trail angels on the PCT who apparently were so overwhelmed with the increasing numbers and/or lack of donations that they have curtailed their activity or shut down entirely. Had they charged a fair market price for the very significant benefits they provide to hikers, we could all still be enjoying that "magic" this season. Personally, I would consider market transactions "magical" in the sense that I can exchange money that I've earned for goods and services that I need - and that neither side is put out or made worse off as a result.

If I am reading you correctly:

#1 in your definition a store would be trail magic.

#2 in your view paying for TM directly should increase the TM available,not paying for it should decrease it.

Though I disagree with your #2, as it is a desire of the human heart to freely give to people grateful to receive and can really appreciate it and the boost it makes in their lives. Paying directly for it would hurt it and possibly turn it into a business.

It is very much human charity that is it's attraction. People getting involved directly in helping others, meeting them, exchanging with them, wishing them well. In that is it a very basic part of humanity that modern society has hindered. This IMHO is why TM is so 'successful'.

shelb
03-16-2015, 23:49
My magic story:

SNP - about 4 years ago? Record high temperatures mid-late July. The Waysides thermometer read 99 degrees, yet the heat index was above 115 due to the humidity. We actually had a ranger stop us at a road crossing and tell us to get off the trail. When I told him my car was 30-40 miles north, he sighed and handed us a six pack of gatorade. Stopping at a park for lunch, an older couple offered us the 1/2 a watermellon leftover from their picnic. I felt like Alexander Supertramp, eating that Super Apple, in "Into the Wild." That watermelon was the bomb!!!

Pedaling Fool
03-17-2015, 07:50
Why do "hiker feeds" take away the true experience of a thru-hike? The true experience of a thru-hike is walking 2200 mile and everything which happens in between. I guess it depends on your idea of a thru-hike. My idea was formed back in '81 while hiking SOBO thru the state of Maine and being virtually cut off from society. There should be some hardships with hiking, especially long-distance hiking, but I guess that mindset is gone nowadays. One hardship is enduring hunger while burning calories; I learned a lot about what I'm capable of from that experience.

Given all the town stops, today's hikers do, maybe this is a long lost aspect of LD hiking. So in that sense, maybe these trail feeds don't take away from the thru-hike experience, but I go at least a week between town stops, because I want that disconnected feeling.

When I first started in 2006 I didn't know what a trail feed was (I did know of trail magic), but soon learned within the first 40 miles and I did partake and I participated in about the next five trail feeds. However, as I was entering a road crossing there was a bunch of “Christians” shuttling hikers to their house to feed them breakfast of pancakes, eggs and other goodies, but that's when it hit me that this is just stupid. This ain't hiking, at least not what my idea is. Granted there are more towns now along the AT, today, that's a bad thing, but it's far worse when, in addition to all the towns, which are easily bypassed, there are large groups of people just eating.

And those groups are not easily bypassed, because they do expect you to stop and “party” with them and when you don't there is some questions, like: Why? Aren't you hungry? It's free... Every time I passed a trail feed, including that first one held by the “Christians” I was met with resistance...Oh come on, it's free...

It's true, trail feeds are more for the providers than the recipients.

Traveler
03-17-2015, 08:41
Funny how "free" things cost you something....

Lyle
03-17-2015, 09:49
While many folks like these feeds and other planned events, and I've occasionally partaken of what's offered, I do not consider them to be "Trail Magic".

"Trail Magic" and "Trail Angels" terms are reserved for the folks and the good deeds that are totally unexpected (to both parties) and spur of the moment. Someone sees a need or an opportunity to help, and does so. This is the much more meaningful and effective charity toward hikers in my opinion.

In my mind, using the term "Trail Magic" for planned events is the same as using the term "Stealth Camping" any time one camps away from a shelter. Misuse of the terms, at least in the traditional sense. The AT culture is primarily to blame for this re-definition.

rocketsocks
03-17-2015, 10:12
While many folks like these feeds and other planned events, and I've occasionally partaken of what's offered, I do not consider them to be "Trail Magic".

"Trail Magic" and "Trail Angels" terms are reserved for the folks and the good deeds that are totally unexpected (to both parties) and spur of the moment. Someone sees a need or an opportunity to help, and does so. This is the much more meaningful and effective charity toward hikers in my opinion.

In my mind, using the term "Trail Magic" for planned events is the same as using the term "Stealth Camping" any time one camps away from a shelter. Misuse of the terms, at least in the traditional sense. The AT culture is primarily to blame for this re-definition.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQlvOzgLOJ08v7-oXcdTVJqEGtFWono_g-YoM5ClA5hoBOmgXbU:www.theagedp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/english-idioms-hit-the-nail-on-the-head.jpg

full conditions
03-17-2015, 10:21
Last week, I talked to a small group of prospective thrus at a shelter just south of NOC. It was early afternoon and some of them were debating the idea of walking the mile down to NOC for a meal or a beer. As I was heading out, one of them said "yeah, lets head on down there - maybe we can score some magic". So, while this isn't necessarily a sign of the decline and fall of western civilization, it wasn't exactly a moment of personal inspiration either.

Coffee
03-17-2015, 11:12
Last week, I talked to a small group of prospective thrus at a shelter just south of NOC. It was early afternoon and some of them were debating the idea of walking the mile down to NOC for a meal or a beer. As I was heading out, one of them said "yeah, lets head on down there - maybe we can score some magic". So, while this isn't necessarily a sign of the decline and fall of western civilization, it wasn't exactly a moment of personal inspiration either.

One of the fundamental human psychological traits is the concept of reciprocity. Most people are uncomfortable receiving things of value from others without reciprocating in some manner. Usually, reciprocity involves simple payment but it can be in other forms as well. If you are invited to a dinner party, it is normal to bring something as a gift for the host and possibly invite the host to your own dinner party at a later time. Good friends and family don't necessarily "keep track" but it is pretty obvious when there is a healthy balance in a relationship and when that is absent. A small minority of humans appear to not be bound by normal principles such as reciprocity and just want to take, take, take, take, and take, and have no mental reservations as to the propriety of doing so. It appears to me that some element of trail culture reinforces this attitude. Personally I find the entire concept extremely uncomfortable.

Slo-go'en
03-17-2015, 11:25
Granted there are more towns now along the AT, today, that's a bad thing, but it's far worse when, in addition to all the towns, which are easily bypassed, there are large groups of people just eating.

There are the same number of towns along the AT as there ever was and in several cases the trail has been moved so it no longer goes through towns. Some of the towns which were a little hard to get to like Hiawassee and Franklin are more assessable thanks to Ron Haven.

When I first hiked through NC/TN in the late 80's it was like being in a 3d world nation. Services were few and far between and worse, no beer! The trail was in bad shape and often tore up by ATV's and horses. When I went back 25 years later I was amazed at how well the trail and the experience had improved. I don't think I'd want to go back to the "good old days".

One of the changes which I think is leading to the perception of a more carnival atmosphere are all the town sponsored events modeled after Damascus "Trail days". It also seems that several post trail day parties have sprung up in Virginia a little farther north.

I've run into a number of small scale trail magic picnics along the trail put on by individuals. These are typically former thru hikers camped out near a road crossing for the weekend. This is much more common then large events.

rickb
03-17-2015, 11:47
Coffee,

Years ago I did a bit of Trail Magic of a sort and the "Thank you" I got back made me feel "repaid" 100x over-- because of its sincerity. There are different kinds of reciprocity-- it's not always a quid pro quo.

Coffee
03-17-2015, 11:48
Coffee,

Years ago I did a bit of Trail Magic of a sort and the "Thank you" I got back made me feel "repaid" 100x over-- because of its sincerity. There are different kinds of reciprocity-- it's not always a quid pro quo.
I agree. But I bet those guys who went off looking to "score some trail magic" aren't going to be looking to reciprocate in any way, now or in the future.

Mags
03-17-2015, 13:24
We can debate the nature of "trail magic" on the AT and other trails.

For better or worse, the 2015 definition is the de facto meaning (again, I prefer calling them "aid stations" as they remind me of what I've seen at running and bike events).

This is an excellent essay that touches upon not trail magic per se, but the experience of the Triple Crown trails, how they have changed and what they have become.

http://freedirtmonger.blogspot.com/2015/03/state-of-wilderness.html

In essence, the popularity of the Big Three is what has caused the change. People want to do this cool thing they heard about, read about or seen on various forms of media.

The experience of hiking the AT is what is the draw...not so much the wilderness around it per se. Sure, that is part of it. But so are the hiker aid stations, the old form of trail magic, the people..in short the linear community and everything on it.

For those seeking something wild, time to seek out something other than the Big Three. And I do include the CDT. There is a slackpacking expedition this year as well as water caches of about 15-20 in number in New Mexico. The person is stocking the caches for $10 pp.

Take the trails for what they are. Not what you want them to be.

We , as a community, can ask people to cut back on the hiker aid stations and caches. And outreach will help.

But the big three trails are different from even five years ago for a multitude of reasons. And they will continue to change.

The trails aren't a fly in amber.

kayak karl
03-17-2015, 13:32
so you agree with a permit system and the doing trail work to get permit??

Mags
03-17-2015, 13:58
so you agree with a permit system and the doing trail work to get permit??

That's not my essay. :)

I said it is food for thought.

If the PCT is any indication, I suspect more trails will have permits in any case.

Trail work to get a permit? I will say some ultra runs require it. Not necessarily for the specific trail, but any trail or open space to fulfill the requirement. Not the worse idea I've heard. Though, I'd amend that to trail-related volunteer hours in general as trail orgs and outdoor orgs in general always need volunteers for cleaning tools, stuffing envelopes, or even skill related work a person may have in their daily lives. (accounting, GIS or IT work as some examples of "work in kind" I know people have donated).

Not everyone has the time to donate time to something like this..but I'd argue if you plan on putting your life on hold for 4-6 mos, 8 hrs of volunteer time prior to a multi-month hike is not exactly an onerous requirement.

Lone Wolf
03-26-2015, 17:31
was at springer last weekend. there was a feed at cooper gap, 2 at gooch gap and a feed at woody gap. yup hiker feed overload

DLP
03-26-2015, 21:33
I sent my sister the link to Mags essay http://www.pmags.com/grassroots-to-organized-the-changing-nature-of-thru-hikes

I pointed out that while the number of thru hikers on the "big" trails is up - the number of backpackers, in general, is down. She sent back to me, "More room for us on the infamous trails. I mean less famous." :)

Sheriff Cougar
03-27-2015, 21:39
My gosh. Don't know what all the fuss is about. If people want to feed the hikers and the hikers want to eat, what is so wrong with that? If they want to be volunteering to work on the trail then that is what they will probably do. It is all about free choice. Let 'em cook and let 'em eat. :-)

campingfever
03-28-2015, 06:45
My wife and I only get to provide trail magic a few times a year because the distance. We do it because we enjoy meeting people from all over the world who are hiking the trail. If our free food, drinks, snacks and free rides into town are offensive to you then by all means keep walking!

bamboo bob
03-28-2015, 17:21
I've done old fashioned magic, left a cooler, worked at "feeds" in GA and VT and eaten a ton of magic old and new. I think the trail organizations have caused the problems that they now want to solve. ATC, PCTA, etc. The keep adding professional trail people and in order to pay for them do endless promotion programs to attract attention and get donations. The promote 'Thru-hiking" as a romantic exciting activity that contrasts with peoples normal lives. They have been very successful at it. Incorporating WILD into the PCTA's promotion is very slick and professional. All this attention is good for the organizations. And adds to the cool factor because now when you say you did a thru-hike you don't get as many blank stares as in the past. I think when things begin to be totally out of hand, the Park Service will actually take over the trails and they'll just ban all of this extraneous activity. But realistically every mile of the PCT and the CDT and certainly the AT is not anybody's definition of wilderness so magic in it's place will endure.

Lone Wolf
03-28-2015, 17:36
there's a church group that's been feeding at gooch gap for a couple of weeks. they've pretty much "hogged" a lot of the camping space there. permits or banning are in order

FatMan
03-28-2015, 17:39
there's a church group that's been feeding at gooch gap for a couple of weeks. they've pretty much "hogged" a lot of the camping space there. permits or banning are in orderAnd they are still there.

Lone Wolf
03-28-2015, 17:58
serious? what are they doing with the dirty dish water i wonder? i hear the FS is gonna reroute the trail away from the gap itself so the area can recover. what this group is doing is not magical

Praha4
03-29-2015, 00:24
if you don't like hiking the AT in the middle of a mob, section hiking the AT has sure become a whole lot more appealing than thru hiking.

we have similar events down here during spring break...church groups show up and have free pancake breakfasts for the kids. Guess it's a type of missionary work for them too.

the AT is gradually evolving into Benton MacKaye's original vision.... hiker hostels, feed stations, etc. each day along the trail. But it is not exactly the "barbarian utopia" he described.

putts
03-29-2015, 01:42
the AT is gradually evolving into Benton MacKaye's original vision

Yes and no. It is also reported that MacKaye "viewed thru hikers as merely "stunt men", who missed the whole point of the Appalachian Trail experience in their rush to cover miles."

https://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-source/atj/atj-march-april-2013.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Day hiking, section hiking, thru hiking...it all sounds good to me.

On the topic of hiker feeds - I'd be a hypocrite to say get rid of em. I've fed, I've been fed. There was only one time that I wished I didn't accept "trail magic" because it came with a hard-sell, your going to hell, religious pitch about half way into the meal. I don't think feeds are "magic". Now if you get to a feed and find out that a friend that you hiked with years ago is the one who set it up...that sounds like the trail working its "magic".

Pedaling Fool
03-29-2015, 08:10
if you don't like hiking the AT in the middle of a mob, section hiking the AT has sure become a whole lot more appealing than thru hiking.

we have similar events down here during spring break...church groups show up and have free pancake breakfasts for the kids. Guess it's a type of missionary work for them too.

the AT is gradually evolving into Benton MacKaye's original vision.... hiker hostels, feed stations, etc. each day along the trail. But it is not exactly the "barbarian utopia" he described.

No, it's not evolving towards Benton Mackaye's vision: http://www.wilderdom.com/vignettes/appalachian/AppalachianParts.htm#Shelter


The hostels (along with shuttling) are mostly a simple business venture. A way to make a buck – I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, nor am I saying that is everyone's motivation, but it's a significant factor. The hiker feeds are simply people wanting to party. There is no (and will never be) any educational factor. Although, I guess all the Christian groups are trying to “educate” us...Maybe they are most in keeping with his vision...ha, ha...

Actually, if any part of the trail is somewhat like Mackaye's vision it's the hut system in the Whites, but I guess the money factor kinds of dampers that.

I can see how there are some similarities of hostels/hiker feeds with Mackaye's vision, but those are only on the surface, but if you look underneath it's a completely different animal – much like a wolf in sheep's clothing.


P.S. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see spring break on the same level as hiking the AT...you know the fellowship with nature crap and all...

dudeijuststarted
03-29-2015, 10:20
Agreed 100%. And, I'll go one step further - it contributes to the increasing sense of entitlement that seems to be showing up in so many thru hikers these days. Making a continuous fuss over prospective thru hikers sends the message that "hey, your five month vacation is special". It aint.

I second this.

DLP
03-29-2015, 13:47
I've done old fashioned magic, left a cooler...

Good article on PCT water cache issues. Unattended cooler problems are also addressed.
http://www.pcta.org/2015/problem-water-caches-pct-27677/

Starchild
03-29-2015, 18:18
Agreed 100%. And, I'll go one step further - it contributes to the increasing sense of entitlement that seems to be showing up in so many thru hikers these days. Making a continuous fuss over prospective thru hikers sends the message that "hey, your five month vacation is special". It aint.


Thank you for your opinion, and that is all that it is! And I am so sorry you feel that way and I hope you find your path - it is obviously not here. Each person, each trail angel gets to decide for themselves if it is special and yes it is, the evidence is clear, yes they are special, yes they are entitled (as we all are if we are really living).

May I suggest the Great Eastern Trail, it is a greater chance to get away from the good will of humanity that we all should enjoy.

rickb
03-29-2015, 18:44
Jeesh, the next thing you know someone will suggest that Lone Wolf move to Bristol, NY because he obviously does not belong in Damascus.

MuddyWaters
03-29-2015, 20:17
Thank you for your opinion, and that is all that it is! And I am so sorry you feel that way and I hope you find your path - it is obviously not here. Each person, each trail angel gets to decide for themselves if it is special and yes it is, the evidence is clear, yes they are special, yes they are entitled (as we all are if we are really living).

May I suggest the Great Eastern Trail, it is a greater chance to get away from the good will of humanity that we all should enjoy.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion. What there is no place for here, is people who cant stand anyone that disagrees with them. And there are a few.

WingedMonkey
03-29-2015, 22:36
Thank you for your opinion, and that is all that it is! And I am so sorry you feel that way and I hope you find your path - it is obviously not here. Each person, each trail angel gets to decide for themselves if it is special and yes it is, the evidence is clear, yes they are special, yes they are entitled (as we all are if we are really living).

May I suggest the Great Eastern Trail, it is a greater chance to get away from the good will of humanity that we all should enjoy.


By your own accounts, you pretty much mooched your way to Maine.

You choose to call it magic.

Scrum
03-30-2015, 01:17
My magic story:

SNP - about 4 years ago? Record high temperatures mid-late July. The Waysides thermometer read 99 degrees, yet the heat index was above 115 due to the humidity. We actually had a ranger stop us at a road crossing and tell us to get off the trail. When I told him my car was 30-40 miles north, he sighed and handed us a six pack of gatorade. Stopping at a park for lunch, an older couple offered us the 1/2 a watermellon leftover from their picnic. I felt like Alexander Supertramp, eating that Super Apple, in "Into the Wild." That watermelon was the bomb!!!

Now that is trail magic - especially the watermelon.

When I day hike on the AT I usually bring along a few extra chocolate bars or apples. When I strike up a conversation with a thru or section hiker and the spirit moves me, I whip it out, wish them luck, and move on. You get some great reactions this way, and it seems to provide some encouragement for those who are struggling a bit. Now it is part of our family tradition and my kids look forward to surprising a few hikers with a little treat almost as much as the hike itself.

Starchild
03-30-2015, 08:21
By your own accounts, you pretty much mooched your way to Maine.

You choose to call it magic.
It is true I was freely offered a lot of good will along my hike, and I was humble enough to be able to receive it. Such kindness given to me did make my thru much more enjoyable and comfortable and adventurous and I am very thankful of the love that was shown to me. It is something I will never forget, something I also can not rightly repay - nor is it meant to be repaid, as it was not monetary value they offered me, but their hearts, it is only something that I carry with me and share that love with others I meet on and off the trail. It taught me what human kindness is to the point that it is now within me also and has transformed my life to now be open to giving freely of my heart in ways shown to me.

So many like to define terms that establish what their opinion is, words such as vacation, hiker feeds, mooch, what trail magic 'really is', and try to keep it in a box they defined for themselves, not realizing that you can not put it inside a box, you can only limit your mind by the box you use.

The trail is evolving, and yes is at its essence Benton MacKaye's original vision, in that the AT is a blending and balance of the wilderness and humanity together, the best of both.

Jack Tarlin
03-30-2015, 09:00
This issue seems to come up every year, and to me it's a NON issue. I'm from Boston, and where I'm from, if someone comes up to you with a smile and offers you something you don't want or aren't interested in, you smile back, say "No, thank you!" and then you go about your business. And anyone that's troubled by someone giving out cans of soda pop in a parking lot, or if they think this is somehow destroying one's "wilderness experience", well in truth, you really need to find something more meaningful to fret about.

Coffee
03-30-2015, 09:29
If hiking isn't a vacation, what in the world should we call it? I'm amused by people who feel that their vacation has some higher purpose than other choices. (Leaving on a five month vacation in two weeks).

swisscross
03-30-2015, 09:39
The trail is evolving, and yes is at its essence Benton MacKaye's original vision, in that the AT is a blending and balance of the wilderness and humanity together, the best of both.

I just read MacKaye's article "A Project of Regional Planning" and did not notice anything about people setting up food stations at road intersections.

Did I miss something?

Starchild
03-30-2015, 09:49
If hiking isn't a vacation, what in the world should we call it? I'm amused by people who feel that their vacation has some higher purpose than other choices. (Leaving on a five month vacation in two weeks).

If you view it as only a vacation that may be all you get out of it. But you can only define your AT journey, not others. For some it is a pilgrimage, others a educational journey - even qualifying for school credits in places. The term Sabatical also is included:


In recent times, "sabbatical" has come to mean any extended absence in the career of an individual in order to achieve something. In the modern sense, one takes sabbatical typically to fulfill some goal, e.g., writing a book or travelling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travel) extensively for research. (from Wiki).

More for me was to be treated as a child, not in a condescending sense, but to be truly 'treated' as in the word treat. It made up a lot for my lack of a real childhood, and was a chance to be care free, with adventures beyond my imagination given to me by people who truly care about me and my journey. Thru hiking is putting yourself in a very child like position, needing rides and help getting clean by providing showers and clothes to wear while yours is in the laundry. The job is simply to accept, experience and learn on a very clearly marked path that a child should be able to follow. It also, by experiencing this, I am much more able to truly treat a child as a child should be treated.

Starchild
03-30-2015, 09:53
I just read MacKaye's article "A Project of Regional Planning" and did not notice anything about people setting up food stations at road intersections.

Did I miss something?

Well someone did as I did not say anything about food stations at road intersections. Please reread my post you quoted. All it was about is the essence of his plan, the blending of humanity and wilderness. How it happens, the method, I did not go into here.

Coffee
03-30-2015, 09:56
A vacation can have many purposes. Simple relaxation. Recreation. Expansion of cultural horizons. Spiritual enlightenment. And so on. But it is still a vacation. I feel fortunate to be in a position to take five months off, and I'll be on vacation. What I experience on vacation is yet to be experienced. I do feel like no one owes me a thing and I refuse to put myself in situations where I am going to be dependent on others, except in extreme emergency (even then I don't like it). A big part of hiking, for me, is self sufficiency, not being cared for by others.

Coffee
03-30-2015, 10:11
Kind of related to this, I recently read an announcement on Facebook from a hiker attempting the fastest known time on the PCT this year unsupported. He is planning to not even get into a vehicle for the entire time he is on the trail, meaning walking to and from all town resupply stops. I think that's an inspiring story of self sufficiency. I think that all of us should be willing and able to do the same, even if we take advantage of hospitality when offered, which I have never thought was "wrong", just not something we should "expect" and certainly not rely on. We aren't special. We are just people on a long vacation.

Starchild
03-30-2015, 18:40
A vacation can have many purposes. Simple relaxation. Recreation. Expansion of cultural horizons. Spiritual enlightenment. And so on. But it is still a vacation. I feel fortunate to be in a position to take five months off, and I'll be on vacation. What I experience on vacation is yet to be experienced. I do feel like no one owes me a thing and I refuse to put myself in situations where I am going to be dependent on others, except in extreme emergency (even then I don't like it). A big part of hiking, for me, is self sufficiency, not being cared for by others.

HYOH and all, but thru hiking is no more self sufficiency then free diving. Your hike is as dependent on society as the free diver is dependent on the surface for air, you and the diver are using ever depleting resources previously obtained from society/the surface (aka dependance), the difference is your depleting supply just lasts a bit longer the that of a free diver. I do admit it can create the illusion of self sufficiency and that can be very satisfying. And I do hear you that not being cared for by others is your motivation. Mine was quite the opposite to experience being cared for and more importantly risking putting myself in that vulnerable position that I wanted and needed to experience.


Kind of related to this, I recently read an announcement on Facebook from a hiker attempting the fastest known time on the PCT this year unsupported. He is planning to not even get into a vehicle for the entire time he is on the trail, meaning walking to and from all town resupply stops. I think that's an inspiring story of self sufficiency.

My view is HYOH, and if this is what this person wants to do then go for it. I do not find it inherently inspiring in itself, but ranging anywhere from very inspiring to actually sad for him, more details would be needed to determine where I would place it.


But it is still a vacation.

We differ in that, remember HYOH and what you expressed here is just your opinion. You do not get to define the hike for others.


I do feel like no one owes me a thing and I refuse to put myself in situations where I am going to be dependent on others, except in extreme emergency (even then I don't like it).

To me it's not a issue of 'owe' (as I stated above, what I received is actually impossible to repay - there is nothing I 'owe', there is just something that I have I received, and that has changed my life, changed who I am and know I will now forever give as I have been given as that good will, the hearts that extended that goodness to me are part of my own - that is the price of dependance that I was so willing to pay), It's a issue of Love for humanity in the hearts of us all to me.



Have a great vacation :)

MuddyWaters
03-30-2015, 18:47
Mackaye's concept, was to develop the appalachians as a pretty much developed recreation area to de-stress the city workers. He proposed developing all the farmland in the valleys to renew the rural/urban balance that had been lost as people moved to cities with the industrial revolution. He proposed using peoples free time, their vacation, to have them work in this massive complex to build and maintain it. Not to mention moving sanitoriums and asylums there so the fresh oxygen could heal people.

The only thing he got right, was that a trail would be a good thing. And people had already been kicking the idea of a long distance trail around for years.

His vision, was not what the trail is wanted to be by most, or needs to be, or ever will be.

Praha4
03-30-2015, 20:46
you are correct, and my comments by no means intended to compare hiking the AT with going on spring break.... although some view hiking the AT as a good way to spend their spring break. I was speaking only of the motivation for the various church groups that show up at road xings to do hiker feeds... as compared to the church groups that show up at spring break to do pancake breakfasts for the youths.

I'm also wondering if and when we see a "peak" for the AT thru hike phenomena/hysteria. Most of these type activities in history have seen peaks and valleys in interest. My guess is if enough hikers return home from this 2015 AT thru hike version and complain about the overcrowded shelters, hostels, and the trail in general, perhaps more will be discouraged from continuing this practice of showing up at Springer in March/April because it's the coolest thing to do these days.

QUOTE=Pedaling Fool;1959099]No, it's not evolving towards Benton Mackaye's vision: http://www.wilderdom.com/vignettes/appalachian/AppalachianParts.htm#Shelter


The hostels (along with shuttling) are mostly a simple business venture. A way to make a buck – I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, nor am I saying that is everyone's motivation, but it's a significant factor. The hiker feeds are simply people wanting to party. There is no (and will never be) any educational factor. Although, I guess all the Christian groups are trying to “educate” us...Maybe they are most in keeping with his vision...ha, ha...

Actually, if any part of the trail is somewhat like Mackaye's vision it's the hut system in the Whites, but I guess the money factor kinds of dampers that.

I can see how there are some similarities of hostels/hiker feeds with Mackaye's vision, but those are only on the surface, but if you look underneath it's a completely different animal – much like a wolf in sheep's clothing.


P.S. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see spring break on the same level as hiking the AT...you know the fellowship with nature crap and all...[/QUOTE]

Coffee
03-30-2015, 21:41
My hike is obviously dependent on society since I need to transact with numerous parties in order to be successful. However, I'm not dependent in the sense that I need society to provide me with anything outside of an arms length transaction involving payment for goods or services. As I said, I am really not against trail magic, and I'm not against kind gestures, only the reliance on such gestures. But I agree, HYOH is the best attitude to have on these issues.

4eyedbuzzard
03-30-2015, 23:32
Mackaye's concept, was to develop the appalachians as a pretty much developed recreation area to de-stress the city workers. He proposed developing all the farmland in the valleys to renew the rural/urban balance that had been lost as people moved to cities with the industrial revolution. He proposed using peoples free time, their vacation, to have them work in this massive complex to build and maintain it. Not to mention moving sanitoriums and asylums there so the fresh oxygen could heal people.

The only thing he got right, was that a trail would be a good thing. And people had already been kicking the idea of a long distance trail around for years.

His vision, was not what the trail is wanted to be by most, or needs to be, or ever will be.Yeah, MacKaye's vision wasn't shared even by most of his contemporaries. Myron Avery, enlisted by Judge Arthur Perkins, the head of the fledgling ATC at the time (1929), pretty much discarded the grand vision and focused on the physical trail. And after Perkins health declined and his death in 1932, Avery took over leadership of the ATC - and just got on with that single vision of finishing the trail. MacKaye, who never saw eye-to-eye with Avery, quit the ATC in 1936 in protest over construction of the Skyline Drive right next to (and in some cases right on) the AT. Visionaries sometimes suffer from practical myopia. But there wasn't, and isn't, any good reason nor duty to bring all the rest of Mackaye's regional plan to fruition.

That all said, the AT wasn't planned or built to host a travelling party of several thousand thru-hikers either. Thru-hikers are a very small percentage of all AT hikers. But their presence, their behavior, and their supporter's behavior impact the trail, often negatively in many people's opinion, especially in the south during spring. If they don't start "policing" themselves, it will eventually be done for them.

squeezebox
03-31-2015, 04:34
Some people come to the AT to enjoy the outdoors, some for the introspection, some for the party. The trail feeds are obviously about the party. HYOH! I guess.
P.S. I wonder how much damage the Gooch Mt. church group has done to the trail, while they could have been cleaning trail, shelters, privys. But I never could understand anything church groups do.

Lone Wolf
03-31-2015, 05:46
Some people come to the AT to enjoy the outdoors, some for the introspection, some for the party. The trail feeds are obviously about the party. HYOH! I guess.
P.S. I wonder how much damage the Gooch Mt. church group has done to the trail, while they could have been cleaning trail, shelters, privys. But I never could understand anything church groups do.

they set up there for a good 2 weeks hogging most of the camping space with a huge tent/awning thing feeding hikers that have packs full of food. very mysterious. me and my friends were across the road giving out beer

Lone Wolf
03-31-2015, 05:58
then they walk 4 more miles to woody gap for another feed

rickb
03-31-2015, 06:24
[QUOTE=Lone Wolf;1959692me and my friends were across the road giving out beer[/QUOTE]

That surprises me.

Lone Wolf
03-31-2015, 06:32
That surprises me.

why? we weren't there for that sole purpose. we were basically camped right on the trail and we were the first humans hikers saw coming into the clearing. i asked a hiker as he approached if he'd like a beer and a big smile come across his face and he replied hell yes! did that for a few days waiting on a friend. the beer was a lot more appreciated than food

rickb
03-31-2015, 07:12
why? we weren't there for that sole purpose. we were basically camped right on the trail and we were the first humans hikers saw coming into the clearing. i asked a hiker as he approached if he'd like a beer and a big smile come across his face and he replied hell yes! did that for a few days waiting on a friend. the beer was a lot more appreciated than food

OK. That strikes me as being very much different than driving to a trailhead with a cooler full of beer to pass out from the back of a truck-- my vision of how it went down.

For me (only) I see a big difference from the kind of Trail magic that happens organically with people who are either on the trail anyway -- or locals who have the AT in thier DNA -- and those wh come from away to share thier love.

Not sure why. I do know I think it would suck if every single trail crossing had people waiting with food at it, and suspect that 99% of hikers would agree-- just as 99% would agree that at least one feed would be wonderful.

So so its just a question of numbers and execution in the end.

squeezebox
03-31-2015, 15:57
Hiker feed= To hell with the physical AT trail, Party On!!! Not much difference from the feeders and the locals that use the shelters for weekend parties and leave the shelter trashed. Same attitude, just not as drunk.

Maxsdad
04-02-2015, 05:53
I would think that TRUE trail magic feeds the spirit as much as the body. And in my 60+ years I've never meet anyone who couldn't use a little occasional nutrition for the soul. And every example I've read here about a memorable instance of trail magic was something made with the 'milk of human kindness'. I'll definitely take a helping of that!

wornoutboots
04-02-2015, 09:13
then they walk 4 more miles to woody gap for another feed

So Lone Wolf did you just pack a few snickers & bounce between feeds for your main meals :D But seriously, after reading this years TJ's, I firmly believe this could be done for at least the 1st 100 miles! helps you to save your $$$ for later up the trail :) I'd love to test this!

wornoutboots
04-02-2015, 09:28
Thanks, I'm enjoying this thread!

Vacationers vs Spring Breakers

full conditions
04-02-2015, 09:57
Thank you for your opinion, and that is all that it is! And I am so sorry you feel that way and I hope you find your path - it is obviously not here. Each person, each trail angel gets to decide for themselves if it is special and yes it is, the evidence is clear, yes they are special, yes they are entitled (as we all are if we are really living).

May I suggest the Great Eastern Trail, it is a greater chance to get away from the good will of humanity that we all should enjoy.

<sigh> Really? <sigh> You get that internet fora are virtually nothing but people giving their opinions - right? This thread in particular has been particularly opinion heavy and the OP simply asked if (in our opinions) if the hiker feeds (aka "trail magic") has gotten out of hand. You may have even noticed the title of the thread. I expressed my opinion. That's it. No insults to you or the feeders just my opinion that these feeds are causing harm to the trail. Your response? Go find another trail. Ummmm no. Heck no (my apologies for the strong language).
My relationship with the trail stretches back to 1969 with a 50 miler in vermont as an 11 year old. Ten years later I thru hiked the trail. It didn't make me special or entitled to anything. What I was was privileged - privileged to have no responsibilities elsewhere; privileged to have five months of free time available for an awesome vacation. A vacation - not some holy pilgrimage not some giant contribution to the welfare of humanity - a really cool vacation.
I have said elsewhere, that if you want to help some folks who have actually done something to earn a sense of entitlement (although they rarely show it), go set up your feed at any armed forces base or feed your local first responders. But feeding a bunch of folks who have full packs and five months free of the responsibilities that the rest of us face is not just a terrible waste of resources (which, to be clear, they're yours to waste), it is creating a travelling party atmosphere along the first 100 miles of the trail, increasing the concentration of the hoards, increasing the sense of entitlement of that self same hoard, and, in many cases, harming the trail environment.
So, rather than go somewhere else, I'm going to try to do something about it - write to land use agencies, the ATC and local trail clubs. Thanks for the inspiration.

squeezebox
04-02-2015, 10:49
I think some of the best trail magic would be jugs of water during dry spells. Drop off a number of jugs on the way to work etc. tie a cord with a caribiner to a tree to thread thru the handles of the empties. Way better than a cheeseburger.

RedwoodRoots
04-02-2015, 14:57
Sounds like ya'll need to take a hike and cool down! Happy Trails!

Lone Wolf
04-02-2015, 15:33
and if you heat up me and my fellow trail devils will give you a cold beer!

kayak karl
04-02-2015, 17:38
I think some of the best trail magic would be jugs of water during dry spells. Drop off a number of jugs on the way to work etc. tie a cord with a caribiner to a tree to thread thru the handles of the empties. Way better than a cheeseburger. Your right. in January a guy left water at Overmountain Shelter and a member on here left water at a road crossing (just for me :)). ALL water sources were frozen. it was a blessing.

rickb
04-02-2015, 18:42
and if you heat up me and my fellow trail devils will give you a cold beer!

It would take more than one bear for me to heat you up.

Others might. Just saw this:

30466

rickb
04-02-2015, 18:49
Here was the picture that went with the article.

30468

rocketsocks
04-02-2015, 19:01
It would take more than one bear for me to heat you up.

Others might. Just saw this:

30466Metaphorically speaking, I sprained my ankle on this article...stupid shallow hoe.

rickb
04-04-2015, 06:05
Metaphorically speaking, I sprained my ankle on this article...stupid shallow hoe.

i generally prefer the writing quality The Economist over Maxim, but rather appreciated this article--- especially the conclusion.

BTW, I am a big fan of "Next Issue" which was the source of the screen shot. For ten dollars a month you can get digital copies scores of magazines including Backpacker, Outside, Men's Journal, Maxim, Popular Science, Mens Health, Architectural Digest, Nat Geographic, Smithsonian, Bicycling and Travel and car magazines and many more.

If you decide you don't like the subscription you can cancel any time, but really cool thing is you get a year of back issues for all of these immediately -- all of which which you could download to your iPad immediately. Even if you find the writing in Maxim wanting, the other stuff is good. or just look at the pictures.