South Kaibab and Bright Angel Trail

[BirdBrain]

I am planning another Arizona trip. It will be our 30th wedding anniversary. We loved Arizona. When we were there last time, we decided we had to come back some time and hike down the South Kaibab Trail and back up the Bright Angel with stops at Phantom Ranch and Indian Gardens. My wife is not an avid hiker. She has done most of Acadia with me. I have done Maine and NH on the AT and 42 of the 4000' hills along the way. I am having a hard time gauging how tough the Grand Canyon hike would be on my wife. I notice one comparison in the comments section on the following link. It is the 1st comment.

http://equipped.outdoors.org/2013/10/total-elevation-gainloss-on-appalachian.html

I plan on carrying most of the gear. I hike 5 to 10 days at a time in Maine and NH. I believe I will be fine lugging enough stuff for the 3 days for the 2 of us. I know I will need to lug a lot of water going down and the up to Indian Gardens. My only concern is how a novice hiker will do going up, especially the last leg from Indian Gardens to the south rim.

[Odd Man Out]

I've seen that statistic before about the AT and even did the calculation for comparing it to the Grand Canyon.

The SKT is 7.1 miles and 2480 ft down
The BAT is 9.9 miles and 2546 ft up
If we assume that the GC trails don't have enough up and down to throw off the calculations (i.e. they all down or all up), then it comes out to about 300 feet of elevation gain/loss per mile

For the AT number in the article (515,000 feet in 2175 miles), you get about 235 feet of elevation gain/loss per mile.

BUT I've seen numbers for the AT which leads me to believe that the 515,000 feet figure is actually 515,000 feet of gain and 515,000 feet of loss. So combining these (as I did for the GC trails), you actually get about 470 feet of gain/loss per mile for the AT.

So the Grand Canyon is literally "a walk in the park" ;-)

[BirdBrain]

Thank you OMO. After searching this site, I see that Shutterbug has quite a bit of experience. I PM'ed him. I hope to pick his brain. I am certain he has the answers to all my questions (including the ones I do not even know I should be asking).

[swjohnsey]

Something you need to consider is back country permits, difficult to get. I took my wife down the Kaibab and up the Bright Angel, not too bad. No water on the Kaibab but down hill. Plenty of water on the Bright Angel, no need to carry more than a quart. If you camp at Indian Gardens and get an early start you can be out before it gets hot.

[Ron]

I'm in Arizona this winter and I've hiked the Kaibab and Bright Angel a couple of times this year, both staying at Phantom Ranch and doing the full trip in one day. It's very doable for a conditioned hiker but is no "walk in the park". The way you are breaking it up will make it much more managable for your wife as long as you keep your pack weight down. The big factor is when you plan to hike it. If you are going in hot weather, especially summer, I would reconsider as it will become a difficult hike.

[Uriah]

I'm in Arizona this winter and I've hiked the Kaibab and Bright Angel a couple of times this year, both staying at Phantom Ranch and doing the full trip in one day. It's very doable for a conditioned hiker but is no "walk in the park". The way you are breaking it up will make it much more managable for your wife as long as you keep your pack weight down. The big factor is when you plan to hike it. If you are going in hot weather, especially summer, I would reconsider as it will become a difficult hike.

When hiking the Hayduke last year (Arches to Zion via the Grand Canyon), I decided I'd play some in the Grand Canyon, since I'd never been. I was fortunately fit, since I'd already had a long walk under my belt, despite not wearing one. As it was early June, I ended having to help a number of hikers who ran (walked) into trouble, overestimating their capacities. The canyon is littered with stories of those who think it's "a walk in the park," as the book Over the Edge: Death in Grand Canyon describes. But with all the right planning (fitness, hiking poles for the wife's long descent, the correct timing, permits secured well in advance [as they have to be for over-nighters], salts, calories, sunscreen, water, etc) it's not as brutal as it saounds. I enjoyed the experience immensely, especially since I walked hundreds of miles to the canyon, which allowed me both greater fitness and appreciation for it. It is a huge hole and I'm sure the BirdBrain will enjoy the trip, given (and taking) all the necessary precautions.

[Spirit Walker]

The hike is an easy one, but some have trouble with the fact that it is continuous down followed by continuous uphill. Time of year makes a huge difference. I did it as an overnight in October, with snow on top and 70 degrees at Phantom Ranch, and as a very long dayhike in April, carrying a lot of water and needing every drop. I've also been at the bottom of the canyon in May on a rafting trip when the temperature was 115. IOW, don't try it as a summer hike. If you have time to train a bit, it would make it easier for your wife. Just get out and walk before or after dinner every day from now until your trip.

You might also consider reserving a room at the lodge or in Tusayan (or a campsite at the campground) both before and after your hike. Before allows you to get an early start, before it gets hot. Afterwards allows you to collapse and eat and rest instead of having to drive two hours or more to Flagstaff.

[BirdBrain]

OMO's comments have been addressed by a few. I must come to his defence. I believe his characterization of the walk is influenced a bit by his knowledge of my hiking adventures. It is not uncommon for me to do 16,000' of elevation change over 15 miles carrying 6 days of food on my back. Maine and NH are full of such opportunities. I have no worries for my self. I have big concerns for my wife. The responses so far are helpful. Thank you. Keep them coming.

[tdoczi]

a non avid friend of mine who would probably die if she tried to hike most of acadia went down the south kaibab and then up the bright angel (all in one day) 2 days later without much issue, carrying her own stuff, which isnt much if youre staying at phantom ranch. id consider skipping indian gardens as i think the lighter load would make for a better time versus spacing the climb out.

also, i suspect your statement about hauling water down the south kaibab is based on the fact that there are no water sources on it. while thats true, its not a very long hike, not very strenuous going down and i think hauling an especially large amount of water is overkill unless it is super hot out. and again, carrying a load of camping gear versus not is a big difference. i'd descend to phantom carrying at most 40 ounces of water for myself, and only that much if it were mid summer, and wouldnt worry about it.

as for the difficulty, all the stats about elevation per mile and all that doesnt mean- the grand canyon is just plain easier than most parts of the AT that have any sort of elevation, as well as easier than most mountains in acadia.

[garlic08]

The SKT is 7.1 miles and 2480 ft down
The BAT is 9.9 miles and 2546 ft up

You might want to check your numbers. The South Rim is around 7200' and the river is around 2500', making the gross elevation difference more like 4,700', nearly doubling your slope calculations.

In any case, it's essentially a mile climb. It's hard to get that on a 4000' peak. I'm not denigrating the difficulty of those summits. A mile climb feels like a mile climb, no matter how good the trail.

The difficulty of the walking depends greatly on how much weight is carried. Many can do that hike easily in one day, some even do a Rim-to-Rim-to-Rim in one day (kinda crazy). One of the minor difficulties on the ascent is the pack animal trains and what they do to the trail. It is extremely well constructed and maintained, but it's hard to completely and constantly cover up the effects of hoofs. But there aren't any slippery roots and rocks like you see in New England. Plenty of steps, though, and they can take it out of you after a while, including on the descent. (My first descent with a pack surprised me, leaving me with sewing machine legs and numb shins.)

You didn't mention the season you're hiking. The presence of snow or ice at the Rim completely changes the difficulty of the trail. So does summer heat at the river.

[BirdBrain]

Likely going mid April.

[Uriah]

I have no worries for my self. I have big concerns for my wife. The responses so far are helpful. Thank you. Keep them coming.

Is hiking the Grand Canyon something she wants to do, or is she simply pleasing you by agreeing to it? Either way, if it's a go...

Encourage her to get as fit as she can beforehand.
Have her use hiking poles for the descent; it'll save her legs some abuse.
Carry everything of hers, especially the heavy stuff (water).
Make sure you start early, if heat's going to be an issue.
Let her set the pace (this seems to be difficult for most men, especially when others start passing them).
Keep hydrated and with more than just water (have some salts or salty snacks).

With an overnighter or two in the belly of the beast, the canyon should be quite manageable for her.

[BirdBrain]

She wants to do it. I let her set the pace every time we hike together. I carry all the gear every time we hike together.

I agree. Most men are idiots (my words) when they hike with women of differing abilities. I have had words with more than one "man" that did not think their female friend was trying hard enough.

[Miner]

How hard it is depends on how hot it is. Some of the canyons on the BA don't get much air flow and get very hot. I remember 105F before 11am one memorial weekend. Don't do it in the hotter months.

SK is steep in places and tiring/hard on the knees. My knees were killing me hiking down when I was on a trip there back in college years ago before the days of trekking poles. The 40+ pound pack probably didn't help. BA is better graded.

[Cookerhiker]

Likely going mid April.

Mid-April of this year? Do you have a reservation at Phantom Ranch? If not, you'll only get in by luck. I'd imagine Indian Garden is also full.

[BirdBrain]

Mid-April of this year? Do you have a reservation at Phantom Ranch? If not, you'll only get in by luck. I'd imagine Indian Garden is also full.

Next year.

[GoldenBear]

I've hiked over half the A.T.
I've hiked up Mount Whitney and back down.
I've hiked down to Phantom Ranch, and then back out, on consecutive days -- in May. With my wife. Who doesn't hike. And who got sick when she did so.

Each of these hikes are difficult, but they are difficult in DIFFERENT ways.
That a person can do one is not necessarily proof of being able to do the other.

The big difference between the Grand Canyon and the A.T. is that the former is HOT and DRY.
If the A.T. is incessantly boring because you're in a canopy of trees, then the GC will make you wish you had trees blocking your view every minute.

I honestly believe that your wife can handle this *IF* she is willing to prepare for this hike by walking up and down steps, every day, until you can do so for over an hour non-stop without getting sore or tired. This will generally take a few weeks of conditioning, but it can be done and MUST be done.

If she's willing to do this training, and you're willing to carry the (fairly minimal) camping supplies needed for two overnights, then I think you'll be fine.
My wife has long given me permission to say that, if she can do this hike, then ANYONE can do this hike.
But she WAS willing to get her legs in shape for this.


I should add that you should carry all the water you can handle, particularly when going down the Kaibab. The problem with the dry heat of Arizona is that you won't realize how much fluid and salts you're losing until it begins to be too late. So you should be drinking all the time. Stop to take a photo, take a drink; stop to catch your breath, take a drink; stop to get out of the way of the mules, take a drink -- repeat.


One thing to also note is that you will have to get overnight permits for this hike -- and these generally are gone MONTHS in advance.

[colorado_rob]

I've hike both the Kaibab and the BA trail roughly 20 times in the last 12-13 years. The BA vs. Kaibab trail conditions have varied a lot over the years. Right now (at least, last year in April) the Kaibab is in better shape IMHO, but of course it still makes sense to go up the BA because of the water stops. But the good news is the Kaibab is in decent condition for her descent. Sure, it is rutted due to those damn mules, but it has been much worse.

We're going weekend after next (April 10/11/12) and I'll report back on trail conditions. As has already been said, your chance of snagging a camping permit at either BA CG (in Phantom) or Indian Gardens is slim, though not zero if you check for a mid-week date.

You don't say how fit or unfit your wife is; IMHO hiking experience is not really that important on such a decent trail especially with you being her "mule" and her carrying very little. Even unfit, she should be able to make it down the Kaibab trail to phantom/BA CG in a few hours, call it 4 hours. I honestly think if she is in any way fit she can make it back up in a day fairly easily, so long as you take it really slow. If you can indeed stay at Indian gardens, that's great of course.

I also feel, again if reasonably fit, she could make it down the Kaibab in four hours or so, take a nice long rest and make it back to Indian gardens if another 4-5 slow, easy hours; that is if Indian gardens is the only camp permit you could get.

All just my opinions of course after having hiked the GC so many, many times in recent years.

[colorado_rob]

Oh, next year! Great, you're golden, get your permits and enjoy. Go no later than early/mid April and really, the heat isn't that bad at all. Avoid climbing from Phantom to Indian Gardens in mid day, just leave nice and early. Indian gardens is nicely shaded and a great place to hang out the rest of the day after hiking up to it in the morning. In early-mid April, the hottest I've seen Phantom at mid-day is in the low-mid 90's, usually below 90, cooler than that mornings and evenings. And it's a "dry heat", really quite nice this time of year actually. Cool off in the CO river, but be ready to really cool off as the water is mid-40's year 'round. When you leave Phantom heading up to Indian Gardens, after about a mile of level hiking along the river (after crossing the silver bridge), there is a nice little beach area and calm river waters just before heading up the step part to IG.

I'll shut up now... getting too excited about next week...

[BirdBrain]

No! Don't shut up. I am getting great advice. As far as what shape my wife is in, all I will say is I like her shape. She is less overweight than I am. She is younger than me too. My mother didn't raise any fools.

[jimmyjam]

BB, I've been hiking in the Grand Canyon on 5 different trips. In mid April one year it was about 28* and snowing and sleeting on the rim, on the way down it changed to rain. by the time we got to Indian Gardens it was 55* or so. When we got Phantom Ranch it was upper 70s. This is typical of the temperature differential from rim to bottom. A great web site is www.hikearizona.com lots of helpful folkes over there.

[WingedMonkey]

Put her on a mule ride to Phantom Ranch and back.

[Second Hand]

I did this hike with my father and brother at the end of June which was just crazy hot!

If your use to hiking in Maine and New Hampshire, you'll love this! Switch backs!!!! But you are pretty exposed most of the way.
Things will probably be a little different for you going in April, but the inside of the Canyon is terribly hot!

We did out best to stay out of the heat of the day, take advantage of opportunities to soak in water and just enjoy it! It's really beautiful.
If your wife is in reasonable shape, I think she should be ok.

For a bit of perspective, it's a lot harder than Cadillac Mountain. A lot.
I didn't think it was as hard as the old bridal path or falling waters trail up to the Franconia ridge line or as difficult as Tuckerman.

From an elevation perspective it's about as difficult as Mount Canon, but the great equalizer for me was the exposure! It was 90 degrees by 10AM and over 120 by mid day in the sun in the inner canyon... It won't be that intense in April, but it shouldn't be taken lightly! We like out trees in New England!

[jimmyjam]

A lot of people do use umbrellas in the canyon and I can say there were a couple of hikes where I really wished I had one.

[BirdBrain]

The exposure points are good advice. She is a Scottish girl. An umbrella it is. The mules are out. She does not want to be delivered. She wants to walk. I love the comparisons to hills I have done. That is helpful. I thought Canon was easy going up. I did not care for the puds on the Kinsman Trail that followed. That is how we get our huge elevation changes up here. 500' up 500' down. Do that for a few miles then climb or descend.

[Shutterbug]

Bird Brain, I responded to you PM, but it might be helpful to respond to your questions here.

I apologize for the delay in responding, but I was hiking in the Grand Canyon. March is an ideal month for hiking in the Grand Canyon.

I am not sure how to respond to your concern about taking your wife into the Canyon. You know her and I don't. My wife was a 62 year old novice the first time we hiked the Grand Canyon. She has now been to the bottom 27 times and has never had a problem beyond losing a few toe nails. I have taken quite a few novices into the Grand Canyon. Most of them have had no significant difficulties, but four have experienced crisis. There are some things that would cause me concern -- overweight, not used to exercise, knee problems, and too heavy of a pack. If you wife has none of those issues, she should be fine.

I will never again take a novice down the South Kaibab Trail. I love the South Kaibab, but it is very unforgiving. The Bright Angel Trail is much more forgiving. An emergency situation on the South Kaibab tends to escalate rapidly -- no shade, no water and no shelter. On the Bright Angel, one is never very far from all three. I am taking my daughter and her family down to Phantom Ranch next month (April). We will be taking the Bright Angel Trail both ways.

I will be pleased to respond to your questions.

[BirdBrain]

Thank you Shutterbug. I will be doing a more extensive search of your posts on the subject on this site. I am sure I will have more questions. Thank you for your willingness to answer them.

[Shutterbug]

... also, i suspect your statement about hauling water down the south kaibab is based on the fact that there are no water sources on it. while thats true, its not a very long hike, not very strenuous going down and i think hauling an especially large amount of water is overkill unless it is super hot out. and again, carrying a load of camping gear versus not is a big difference. i'd descend to phantom carrying at most 40 ounces of water for myself, and only that much if it were mid summer, and wouldnt worry about it.



I must disagree. Although the South Kaibab Trail is not very long (7 miles), it is very steep. More than a few people develop knee problems on the way down. The people who get into trouble on the South Kaibab are those who develop knee problems and don't have enough water -- that is a lethal combination. When I hike the South Kaibab, I always carry at least 1 liter more than I think I will need.

I do agree with your suggestion about skipping the overnight at Indian Garden. I use the Duffel Service to send my tent and camping gear down on a mule. I camp at the Bright Angel Campground, then send my gear back up on the mule. The Duffle Service is expensive but worth it. On the hike out, I carry only what I will need on the hike out.

[colorado_rob]

With due respect, and just my opinion after having been down both the BA and the Kaibab many many times, and three times recently (last spring, last fall and over this last New Year's), the Kaibab is actually (right now) a better overall trail, less rutted out and really no steeper. It is a fallacy about it being steeper. Yes it is shorter and has a tad more vertical so on average it is steeper, but the BA has about two fairly flat miles (one completely flat mile along the river, another just below and above Indian gardens) and it is just as steep if not more from the river to Indian gardens, actually probably just about the same. The big downfall is the lack of water, but as tdoczi says, this is not a problem going down, just hydrate well before, take your time, carry a solid 1.5 liters, two if you must, and wander down this incredible trail.

I'll put my money where my mouth is and post a profile of both trails tomorrow.

[BirdBrain]

Great. I have been looking for good elevation profiles. The ones I have seen are wanting.

I have tended to agree with Shutterbug on the water situation. I grasp that if all goes well, not much will be required. If things don't, water becomes a big problem real quick.

However, my ignorance of the walk leave me in no position to argue either side.

[tdoczi]

I must disagree. Although the South Kaibab Trail is not very long (7 miles), it is very steep. More than a few people develop knee problems on the way down. The people who get into trouble on the South Kaibab are those who develop knee problems and don't have enough water -- that is a lethal combination. When I hike the South Kaibab, I always carry at least 1 liter more than I think I will need.

I do agree with your suggestion about skipping the overnight at Indian Garden. I use the Duffel Service to send my tent and camping gear down on a mule. I camp at the Bright Angel Campground, then send my gear back up on the mule. The Duffle Service is expensive but worth it. On the hike out, I carry only what I will need on the hike out.

if youre carrying a bunch of camping gear and hauling an excessive amount of water the chances of hurting your knees go up dramatically. its really not that tough of a trail, if youve gone down even a moderately hard trail in the whites or acadia youve gone down harder. if someone is seriously concerned that their knees might give out then i would recommend not going, period. otherwise, theres a million "what ifs..." and i wouldnt rate a sudden unexpected knee failure much more likely than injured by a falling rock, tripping and spraining your ankle, etc. cant worry about all of that.

that and its a well travelled trail. you almost make it sound like theres a high chance of getting stuck out in the sun for hours and hours with no hope of rescue and thats incredibly far from accurate.

[colorado_rob]

Great. I have been looking for good elevation profiles. The ones I have seen are wanting.

I have tended to agree with Shutterbug on the water situation. I grasp that if all goes well, not much will be required. If things don't, water becomes a big problem real quick.

However, my ignorance of the walk leave me in no position to argue either side.Well, I thought I had a GPS track (my own) of the BA, but I only have one of the Kaibab, sorry. But I will next weekend when we go yet again, I'll make it a point. Recent years we tend to go down the Kaibab and up the Bright Angel, I think what your OP said you wanted to do. The Kaibab is plenty crowded, so not sure what deep-trouble you could get into there in April. Certainly in mid-summer with extreme heat down low that's another story.

Everyone keep mentioning heat, but in April, be prepared for some real cold on the south rim in the early morning. We always start out very, very early, like 2am or so, but I assume you want to start in the light, but there's a real chance you'll be in the low-30's in April just before dawn. Once you start down, it warms up really fast, we're usually down to shorts and single upper layer by 2000' down, still well before dawn in our case.

Here are a couple of relatively lame profiles, don't really give any quantitative info:

http://www.bobspixels.com/kaibab.org/bc/gc_ep_ba.htm

http://www.bobspixels.com/kaibab.org/bc/gc_ep_sk.htm

And one more overview:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eaqSl-c-OVk/URno7L38rGI/AAAAAAAAAZA/gp5JSejtprc/s1600/R2R2Rmap.jpg

My point was that though of course the KB is on average steeper, the max steepness really isn't any steeper, and really, it ain't that steep anywhere, both trails are nicely made. Recent years the BA mule-formed dips and potholes seem to be worse than on the Kaibab, but I can report in again after next weekend.

So again, going down the Kaibab and up the BA is a very common thing to do, gives you a nice tour-de-canyon (south side only, of course) and your proposed itinerary sounds perfect to me.

I really will completely shut up now.

[climbingbear]

I had the mules carry my pack down to the ranch while I hiked the kabab trail down. Then I carried it back up to bright angel to camp then again to the rim. I weighted almost 300 lbs without a pack back then and I made it. Good luck and have a good tim.

[climbingbear]

Btw, I'm down to 250lbs and dropping.

[BirdBrain]

Well, I thought I had a GPS track (my own) of the BA, but I only have one of the Kaibab, sorry. But I will next weekend when we go yet again, I'll make it a point. Recent years we tend to go down the Kaibab and up the Bright Angel, I think what your OP said you wanted to do. The Kaibab is plenty crowded, so not sure what deep-trouble you could get into there in April. Certainly in mid-summer with extreme heat down low that's another story.

Everyone keep mentioning heat, but in April, be prepared for some real cold on the south rim in the early morning. We always start out very, very early, like 2am or so, but I assume you want to start in the light, but there's a real chance you'll be in the low-30's in April just before dawn. Once you start down, it warms up really fast, we're usually down to shorts and single upper layer by 2000' down, still well before dawn in our case.

Here are a couple of relatively lame profiles, don't really give any quantitative info:

http://www.bobspixels.com/kaibab.org/bc/gc_ep_ba.htm

http://www.bobspixels.com/kaibab.org/bc/gc_ep_sk.htm

And one more overview:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eaqSl-c-OVk/URno7L38rGI/AAAAAAAAAZA/gp5JSejtprc/s1600/R2R2Rmap.jpg

My point was that though of course the KB is on average steeper, the max steepness really isn't any steeper, and really, it ain't that steep anywhere, both trails are nicely made. Recent years the BA mule-formed dips and potholes seem to be worse than on the Kaibab, but I can report in again after next weekend.

So again, going down the Kaibab and up the BA is a very common thing to do, gives you a nice tour-de-canyon (south side only, of course) and your proposed itinerary sounds perfect to me.

I really will completely shut up now.

I like the 3rd profile. That one is convincing me to do Ribbon Falls. I have seen the 1st 2. Still hope to find better. Don't get the wrong idea guys. I am not scared. I will not be a camel. I will carry what the rangers tell me I should. That will be more than what I carry on the AT. (The water comments are not directed specifically at you CR). I just love my wife. She likes hiking, but not as much as I. I just want her walk to be at least as enjoyable as mine. That is why my original question dealt with how tough it would be for her on the last leg. As usual, I received other great input as well. Thanx all.

[jimmyjam]

BB,

Also be sure and take some salty snacks and electrolite mix for your drinks really help. We did two nights on Horseshoe Mesa- I highly reccommend it- and on the way out my wife was having trouble (very steep trail) because she refused to snack or drink any electrolite water. She ran out of water and had to drink mine which perked her right up. The elevation, the temperature and steepness of the trails really make them challenging. Avoid hiking in the inner canyon between say 10 am and 4 pm after mid May thru September. Hike early or sit in the shade until it cools down.

[Spirit Walker]

South Kaibab is a more scenic trail, IMO, because the view changes as you descend. BA has pretty much the same view all the way down.

[BirdBrain]

BB,

Also be sure and take some salty snacks and electrolite mix for your drinks really help. We did two nights on Horseshoe Mesa- I highly reccommend it- and on the way out my wife was having trouble (very steep trail) because she refused to snack or drink any electrolite water. She ran out of water and had to drink mine which perked her right up. The elevation, the temperature and steepness of the trails really make them challenging. Avoid hiking in the inner canyon between say 10 am and 4 pm after mid May thru September. Hike early or sit in the shade until it cools down.

Good tips. I use NUUN on all my hikes.... and vitamin-I. But that is another story.

[BirdBrain]

South Kaibab is a more scenic trail, IMO, because the view changes as you descend. BA has pretty much the same view all the way down.

That is the allure of my choice on the way down. Water is the allure of my choice on the way up.

[jimmyjam]

BB, it can be hard to obtain the overnight permits, but keep in mind the Backcounty Office (located over by the train tracks) does hold back a few everyday for walkins. I believe they open at 7 am. As an alternate hike you could do Hermit trail to Tonto trail, and back up the Bright Angel. The BA is like a highway, lots of tourists for the first mile or two and lots of mule poop and pee to walk thru and around if you can. Same for south kabaib to a less extent. We ended doing the the two nights on horseshoe mesa because we couldn't get other permits. There is a "lollypop" hike you can do with Horseshoe Mesa that involves going down the Grand View and then either taking the trail to the west by the old cabin down to the creek and then turn east on the Tonto until you get past the east arm of the Horseshoe and then come up the side canyon to Miner's Spring ( also called Paige Spring) and then back up to the Mesa. The Grand View Trail lives up to it's name. It does have more exposure than BA and the trail to the spring ( NO WATER ON THE MESA) is a bit hairy to say the least. Would I do it again? Heck yeah. I am addicted to the canyon.

[jimmyjam]

BB, I left off the other route is a trail down the skree (slide on your butt down 1,000 feet) off the west horseshoe arm to the tonto trail. Go to hikearizona and ask the hikers there about hiking the canyons, there are people that have a lot of experience in it.

[Shutterbug]

...

I also feel, again if reasonably fit, she could make it down the Kaibab in four hours or so, take a nice long rest and make it back to Indian gardens if another 4-5 slow, easy hours; that is if Indian gardens is the only camp permit you could get.

All just my opinions of course after having hiked the GC so many, many times in recent years.

I agree, and if you found that she was having more difficulty than you anticipated, you could take the shortcut -- Tonto Trail from the Tip Off on the South Kiabab directly over to Indian Garden -- about 2 hours. When my wife and I hiked that trail last week, there were two water sources that had running water.