it must be crazy down there!

[Slo-go'en]

Saw a TJ entry last night which reported there was a rumor 150 people started at Springer yesterday, April 1st. (he was at Hiker Hostel heading out today) If true, that's totally nuts!

FS42 must have been like an interstate. I can't imagine that many people trying to find a place to camp along the first 10 miles of trial - or the next 10 miles. One part of me is glad I'm nowhere near there while another part of me thinks it would be fun to witness the madness. It's always fun to watch that many people try to set up their tents for the first time...

[Christoph]

I hope it thins out soon. Starting mine on the 19th but after reading some of these threads, I'm really considering pushing it back another week. That's a lot of people.

[illabelle]

That's like a herd of buffalo! Imagine all the impacts to wildlife, vegetation, water sources, treadway - not to mention the manure left behind! I don't like the idea of regulating access, but that's insane.

[Havana]

I've been thinking about a NOBO in the next few years. But now I'm thinking about a flip or cool breeze. It's just insane to go for a walk in the woods with 100 other folks. It's not what I'm looking for. I do section hikes in the northeast through the summer and by then the crowds are thin and spread out. It's a nice experience (and the crappers aren't all full).

[Hot Flash]

I'm actually considering doing the Benton Mackaye as an alternate route instead of that first madhouse section of the AT. Then continue on the AT on the far side of the Smokies.

[Coffee]

I'm worried enough about 50/day starting on the PCT every day this month and I'm right in the middle of the herd, but at least it isn't 150/day. That's just insane.

[RED-DOG]

I beleive next year will be worse than this year. the ATC needs get somekind of regulation in place cause the next few years will also be bad. after all the herds go through is a great time to go hiking thats when the trail clubs come out and clean up the mess left behind. next year we will probably see caretakers at the first few shelters in GA.

[colorado_rob]

I've been thinking about a NOBO in the next few years. But now I'm thinking about a flip or cool breeze. It's just insane to go for a walk in the woods with 100 other folks. It's not what I'm looking for. I do section hikes in the northeast through the summer and by then the crowds are thin and spread out. It's a nice experience (and the crappers aren't all full).I started with about 40-50 folks in 2013 in early April, wasn't really that "crowded" except at those first few shelters (which I walked right by, I camped at about mile 17 my first night), but by the end of about a week, it was waaaaayyyyy thinned out, and after a couple/few weeks I felt at times that I owned the trail. Still, if I had it to do over, I'd probably flip as well.

I'm probably the only one, but I'm excited to see so many more people enjoying, or at least attempting to enjoy, this fantastic "hobby" (long distance hiking). I do realize there are overuse problems to be worked out, but still, this is a good trend in my mind.

[Redrowen]

Saw a TJ entry last night which reported there was a rumor 150 people started at Springer yesterday, April 1st.

Sounds like an April Fool Joke.

[tim.hiker]

When does these people come threw the Smokies how long does it take from the start to get there ?

[Tipi Walter]

That's like a herd of buffalo! Imagine all the impacts to wildlife, vegetation, water sources, treadway - not to mention the manure left behind! I don't like the idea of regulating access, but that's insane.

I love it. Keeps the newbs and crowds away from my neck of the woods and hiking trails. Clusters them all in one place as Yes they are backpackers but obviously brainwashed backpackers to think the AT is the only game in town. Oh, and once the temps dip below 30F all 150 of them will bail into a town with hot showers and motel beds. It's a perfect system and needs no regulation. Let them fixate and drool over the AT and the AT shelter system---it leaves an incredible amount of solitary and open trails for me.

[Seatbelt]

If we think it's bad now, wait til the movie comes out.

[Traveler]

If we think it's bad now, wait til the movie comes out.

I am less concerned with the effects of a movie than I am the effect that quasi-permanent hiker feeds are having on the AT. These are the next step to commercialization of trail services, gear, and other vendors that will start setting up shop.

[Tipi Walter]

If we think it's bad now, wait til the movie comes out.

I'm glad for the movie as it will draw even more people away from backpacking other trails in the mountains of TN and Georgia and NC and Virginia and concentrate them on the AT boulevard.

[illabelle]

Since every able-bodied American (and many foreign visitors) have an inalienable right to traverse the wilderness, we should build great 100-bed bunkhouses, and 12-hole privies, and install water pumps, and climbing aids for the steep areas (handrails, cables, winches?), and we should award medals after the first 100 miles or so, and and and ...

Don't hit me, I'm not serious!

[Sarcasm the elf]

If we think it's bad now, wait til the movie comes out.

I'm actually excited for the movie. For all of the concerns about the damage that will be done as a result of overuse in the Southern most section (which is a concern I share), we forget that the majority of people who will watch the movie and be inspired by it aren't going to try a thru hike. It's easy to focus on the idiots that are inevitably going to watch the movie and then show up at Springer dangerously unprepared, however I am willing to bet that for every one of those fools produced by the film, there will be dozens of more intelligent people who see the movie, catch the hiker bug, do proper research and begin to enjoy the A.T. and other trails in their free time. We all got into this pursuit one way or another and this movie is hopefully going to increase the popularity of hiking and the outdoors throughout the country.

[Tipi Walter]

But I don't believe the subject is about the Unprepared Idiots on the trail but about the sheer numbers on the trail.

[colorado_rob]

I amazes me, and somewhat saddens me to see such cynical posts (elf's post aside); this is primarily an AT website, yet when lots and lots of folks show up to hike the AT, most on here tend to bad-mouth them and say the Sky is Falling, even though they themselves want to hike the AT, or if you don't, WHY do you participate on an AT forum?

[Tipi Walter]

I amazes me, and somewhat saddens me to see such cynical posts (elf's post aside); this is primarily an AT website, yet when lots and lots of folks show up to hike the AT, most on here tend to bad-mouth them and say the Sky is Falling, even though they themselves want to hike the AT, or if you don't, WHY do you participate on an AT forum?

Because Whiteblaze is also about backpacking and about Other Trails like the CDT and PCT and about any or all wilderness areas and about the backpackers who use these other trails or go into these other wilderness areas.

[Seatbelt]

I amazes me, and somewhat saddens me to see such cynical posts (elf's post aside); this is primarily an AT website, yet when lots and lots of folks show up to hike the AT, most on here tend to bad-mouth them and say the Sky is Falling, even though they themselves want to hike the AT, or if you don't, WHY do you participate on an AT forum? I wasn't badmouthing anybody. I simply said that if we think it is bad now--IT meaning crowds Not badmouthing them though just concerned about the situation.

[swonut]

Just keep walking about 200 yards past the shelters and pitch your tent, grab your cook gear and walk back to the shelter, get water, make dinner, enjoy the company, then head out for a night of solitude.... It always amazed me how much space there was just a few hundred yards past the shelter. (Works better if you are an early riser.)

[LoneStranger]

I amazes me, and somewhat saddens me to see such cynical posts (elf's post aside); this is primarily an AT website, yet when lots and lots of folks show up to hike the AT, most on here tend to bad-mouth them and say the Sky is Falling, even though they themselves want to hike the AT, or if you don't, WHY do you participate on an AT forum?

I didn't really read those posts as badmouthing the folks on trail. They just seemed to be acknowledging the reality that impact increases exponentially as use goes up and numbers are going up big time. Yes it is great that more folks want to enjoy the outdoors, but that doesn't change the reality of it having a downside as well. Once people accept that reality they can start thinking about how to mitigate the negative issues.

Personally I'm in the Yogi Berra camp and think that in a year or two the AT, at least in the southern half, will become so crowded that no one will go there any more. :p Problem solved!

[FatMan]

I hope the 150 is an April Fools joke. The trail is big, but 150 people starting in a single day is well beyond its capacity. I will out tomorrow morning right in the middle of this mess. I am pretty sure that my typical walmart bag will not be enough to clean up the gooch shelter. Looks like a large kitchen bag will be in order.

[Praha4]

Hiker Hostel has been giving updates at their FB page. Those big numbers are accurate. I wonder how the volunteer AT ridge runners and GATC trail workers are holding up.

[Tundracamper]

How in the world is 150 beyond capacity? How many of those do you really think will make the first 50 miles?

[Odd Man Out]

Since every able-bodied American (and many foreign visitors) have an inalienable right to traverse the wilderness...

Actually you do - in Sweden. "No Trespassing" signs are unconstitutional there, even on private property. Then they build huts with saunas.

http://www.svenskaturistforeningen.se/en/Discover-Sweden/Facilities-and-activities/Lappland/Fjallstugor/STF-Mountain-hut-Unna-Allakas/

[hikehunter]

I did a section hike from Springer to Franklin, 13Feb-5Mar. this year. I counted almost 60 different hikers that I came across during that time. There are most likly about 22 or so still on trail. They will be in east TN or just past Damascus by now. Early start gets you out front of the "bubble" I heard that 300 hikers started March 1st. It is a bit crazy.
About 40% drop of around Neel Gap. 20% more at Hiawassee. 20% more at Franklin......and so on. By the time they get to New Found Gap the numbers have dropped big time on the "Thru Hikers" Day hikers will be the big increase after the movie comes out. The day hikers can be ,but, are not always the ones that do the greatest harm to the trail.
Many day hikers are ill-informed about LNT and other wasy of the woods.

[jj2044]

How in the world is 150 beyond capacity? How many of those do you really think will make the first 50 miles?

well i bet about 20-30 quit at neals. but that still leaves 120-130...... even if half quit, there is still too many

[MonkeyButtNC]

while another part of me thinks it would be fun to witness the madness. It's always fun to watch that many people try to set up their tents for the first time...

or light their stoves, over cook their coffee in the Jetboils, wake up with charlie horses in their calves, sport their newest REI/North Face/Mountain Hardware clothes...

Will the surrounding towns have enough hostels for these NOBO's to stay at after 3-4 trail days?

[Coffee]

What I don't understand is why more hikers don't go southbound on the AT. There are serious logistical issues to a SOBO PCT (or I would be going SOBO this year) but a SOBO AT doesn't have the same issues. In either 2016 or 2017, I'll be heading SOBO around July 1, aiming to finish before Thanksgiving.

[SteelCut]

What I don't understand is why more hikers don't go southbound on the AT. There are serious logistical issues to a SOBO PCT (or I would be going SOBO this year) but a SOBO AT doesn't have the same issues. In either 2016 or 2017, I'll be heading SOBO around July 1, aiming to finish before Thanksgiving.

Because the party travels north. Because here is no outfitter 30 miles into the hike that will tell them what to send home and sell them new lightweight gear. Because there are no hostels and hiker feeds at every road crossing. Because most of those that don't even know how to setup their tent probably wouldn't either make the summit of Katahdin the first day or make it thru the 100 mile wilderness without bailing.

I definitely see your point. I thought about doing a SOBO this year but couldn't wait until July to start due to employment (and other) reasons. Given what I'm reading about what is happening down at Springer, I'm soooo glad I'm doing a flip-flop thru this year rather than even a late starting NOBO. I'd hate to be in that fart trail.

[wornoutboots]

What I don't understand is why more hikers don't go southbound on the AT.

Skeerer'd of being alone in the woods :rolleyes:

[Lone Wolf]

What I don't understand is why more hikers don't go southbound on the AT. There are serious logistical issues to a SOBO PCT (or I would be going SOBO this year) but a SOBO AT doesn't have the same issues. In either 2016 or 2017, I'll be heading SOBO around July 1, aiming to finish before Thanksgiving.

fear and inexperience

[Slo-go'en]

What I don't understand is why more hikers don't go southbound on the AT.

For one thing, it's a heck of a lot harder and second you will likely be hiking into winter. SOBO is definitely for the reasonably experienced hiker.

Looking at the Hiker Hostel FB page, their guessing up 3100 will start a thru this season. That's a lot. Good thing most of them don't make it up to my neck of the woods :)

So LW, any observations from GA you want to share?

[Coffee]

For one thing, it's a heck of a lot harder and second you will likely be hiking into winter. SOBO is definitely for the reasonably experienced hiker.

Having to do Maine, NH, and Vermont at the start would require a hiker to be really fit from the start. But assuming good fitness, I'm hoping it won't be too bad. Hiking into the fall colors in the south is actually very appealing to me. The only thing that isn't appealing is the shorter days as fall progresses... Not much can be done about that.

[fireneck]

I'm actually considering doing the Benton Mackaye as an alternate route instead of that first madhouse section of the AT. Then continue on the AT on the far side of the Smokies.

I like you!

[campingfever]

My wife and I are going on a day hike tomorrow from Woody Gap to Neels Gap. Looking forward to see what the situation really is.

[egilbe]

I'm actually considering doing the Benton Mackaye as an alternate route instead of that first madhouse section of the AT. Then continue on the AT on the far side of the Smokies.
Its a reasonable alternative to the crowds starting at Springer. The GF and I decided to flip-flop and finish at Springer in the Fall. She doesn't want to deal with the trail partiers, the crowds and the mess they leave behind. We already carry out more stuff than we bring in on our hikes. LNT seems lost on some people.

[rickb]

When people speak of the need to have "experience" in order to go SOBO, I think it is important to recognize that each of us defines that word differently.

To my way of thinking, one one could get all the experience needed over the course of 3 or 4 long weekends, provided that you put yourself in the mind of a prospective long distance hiker and pushed yourself on one or two of them.

Adding a bit of adventure is a good thing, and by God the northern end of the trail is so magnificent it provides a degree of inspiration that is hard to overstate.

There are all sorts of logical reason for "Walking with Spring", but the herd mentality certainly plays a huge part.

I think I posted a poll one asking if any Southbounders ever regretted their decision to go that way-- don't think a singe one replied in the affirmative. Of course it is possible there are some but they are over in a mountain biking or golf forum. But I don't think so.

[Traveler]

When people speak of the need to have "experience" in order to go SOBO, I think it is important to recognize that each of us defines that word differently.

To my way of thinking, one one could get all the experience needed over the course of 3 or 4 long weekends, provided that you put yourself in the mind of a prospective long distance hiker and pushed yourself on one or two of them.

Adding a bit of adventure is a good thing, and by God the northern end of the trail is so magnificent it provides a degree of inspiration that is hard to overstate.

There are all sorts of logical reason for "Walking with Spring", but the herd mentality certainly plays a huge part.

I think I posted a poll one asking if any Southbounders ever regretted their decision to go that way-- don't think a singe one replied in the affirmative. Of course it is possible there are some but they are over in a mountain biking or golf forum. But I don't think so.

Excellent points. There will still be people on the trail at camping areas, shelters, and various places people tend to gather, regardless of direction of travel. Being lonely or needing some advice/help shouldn't be that much of an issue. The only thing I would add is the ME and NH sections can be very difficult, conditioning levels should be at a bit higher level than most any other starting place along the trail. However, even that comes over time.

[FatMan]

How in the world is 150 beyond capacity? How many of those do you really think will make the first 50 miles?The problem is the first 30 miles. Many will quit at Gooch Gap. Many will quit at Woody Gap. What many don't grasp here is that this is not 150 seasoned hikers like what folks see as thru hikers hundreds of miles up the trail. The majority of these 150 hikers do not have a clue. Many are out on their first hike. LNT means absolutely nothing to them as they have never heard of the concept.

Just to give you an idea of the thought processes of these "thru hikers" two weeks ago someone left a pile of trash with a couple of bucks as though they were leaving a tip for the maid. Of course the maid will be by soon so just leave your crap. Isn't this how it works?

I am heading out now and will get an idea if the 150 is accurate. I will stop at the Gooch Mtn Shelter and I suspect I will be bringing home a large bag of trash unless the maintainer has been there in the last day or so. Good thing the maids stop by frequently. BTW, the maintainer for this shelter is excellent and she gets out weekly this time of year.

[mattjv89]

Well today is the beginning of day 9 for me starting at top of Georgia and I honestly have yet to see any of the "craziness" that gets so much attention on here. I read so many times that there would be 50-70 people at every shelter, every night, was even told that by a ridge runner. Has not happened a single time, probably the most crowded night so far was about 25 at lance creek due to the bear canister zone bottlenecking people. I never sleep in the shelters but often tent near them for the company and haven't been out of a pitching spot once. I suppose if you are hellbent on getting a shelter spot you are going to have to hike early and fast but outside of that no concerns. Bring a proper trowel, there have been one or two over full privies so far. Yes maybe 50 people a day start but they fan right out. Day one the crowd was pretty evenly spread between springer shelter, stover creek and hawk depending on where they started and ability, so the crowd fans right out. Although I wasn't there I am 99.9% confident calling that 150 number a gross exaggeration. The other thing I have not seen a ton of yet is littering. It is out there, but like the crowds I was led to believe every shelter and the trail would be paved with garbage which just hasn't happened yet. Interestingly the most littered spots I've seen are not shelters, they are the well established trail side campsites. The best I can figure is people are less bashful about littering in the absence of an audience. Every day there are periods where I'm hiking basically by myself for hours at a time then see some folks when I stop for food. Starting March 26 I think it's fair to say I'm in the bubble too. It does seem that some of the overcrowding may be more at hostels. Top of Georgia was my first stay and i tented on the lawn, as I sit here writing at 815 AM they are already telling callers the overflow house across town is full. Well easy fix there, sleep in the woods and stay away from hostels till ya really really could use the shower. I could go on and on but so far I'm just not seeing the god awful rat race littering crowds reading on here made me brace myself for. I have absolutely no regrets starting in the bubble and the company has been fantastic. The party scene is really not hard to avoid either, those folks are just starting to emerge and it's been pretty easy to just not follow them. A few less than legal puffs at shelters is the most I've seen in the woods and those folks have all asked if anyone minds before lighting up.

[Seatbelt]

Well today is the beginning of day 9 for me starting at top of Georgia and I honestly have yet to see any of the "craziness" that gets so much attention on here. I read so many times that there would be 50-70 people at every shelter, every night, was even told that by a ridge runner. Has not happened a single time, probably the most crowded night so far was about 25 at lance creek due to the bear canister zone bottlenecking people. I never sleep in the shelters but often tent near them for the company and haven't been out of a pitching spot once. I suppose if you are hellbent on getting a shelter spot you are going to have to hike early and fast but outside of that no concerns. Bring a proper trowel, there have been one or two over full privies so far. Yes maybe 50 people a day start but they fan right out. Day one the crowd was pretty evenly spread between springer shelter, stover creek and hawk depending on where they started and ability, so the crowd fans right out. Although I wasn't there I am 99.9% confident calling that 150 number a gross exaggeration. The other thing I have not seen a ton of yet is littering. It is out there, but like the crowds I was led to believe every shelter and the trail would be paved with garbage which just hasn't happened yet. Interestingly the most littered spots I've seen are not shelters, they are the well established trail side campsites. The best I can figure is people are less bashful about littering in the absence of an audience. Every day there are periods where I'm hiking basically by myself for hours at a time then see some folks when I stop for food. Starting March 26 I think it's fair to say I'm in the bubble too. It does seem that some of the overcrowding may be more at hostels. Top of Georgia was my first stay and i tented on the lawn, as I sit here writing at 815 AM they are already telling callers the overflow house across town is full. Well easy fix there, sleep in the woods and stay away from hostels till ya really really could use the shower. I could go on and on but so far I'm just not seeing the god awful rat race littering crowds reading on here made me brace myself for. I have absolutely no regrets starting in the bubble and the company has been fantastic. The party scene is really not hard to avoid either, those folks are just starting to emerge and it's been pretty easy to just not follow them. A few less than legal puffs at shelters is the most I've seen in the woods and those folks have all asked if anyone minds before lighting up. Thanks for posting! Just curious as to how many GATC volunteers you have run into? The do a fantastic job keeping things clean on their section of the trail.

[brancher]

Hmmmm.... just as I suspected...... More Post-Industrial Capitalist manipulation of the Proletariat.

It's that dastardly Illuminati, at it again ....

[Grampsb]

How about the Great Eastern Trail - should be much less crowded

[FatMan]

OK, just got back from 4 hours out on the trail. The 150 is clearly an April Fools joke. Most of the supposed 150 would have been hiking past Grassy Gap today. I can report that there were in fact fewer thru hikers today than I have seen in weeks. The Gooch Shelter did have 50+ people last night but 20+ belonged to two separate scout groups leaving only about 30 other hikers. Gooch Gap only had less than a handful of hikers last night. Over all pretty quiet compared to recent times.

The shelter area was clean and tidy, but scout groups usually carry out more than they carry in.

Good April Fools joke to those that started it.

[Busky2]

FatMan's tru thru numbers sound like just a slight increase from last year. Still, last year I went nobo and after a few weeks of fun I choose to jump ahead of the hoard a few hundred miles and I loved it, this year I am starting at snickers gap and will go from there and flip when needed to avoid the crowds.

[Emerson Bigills]

Thanks for the info, Matt. Lots of rumors and urban myths to sort out on the net. Clearly the ATC and other powers are going to have to resolve the clumping issue in the first few miles, but the reports of Mongol Hordes seems to have been premature. Good luck to you and enjoy the trail.

[FatMan]

FatMan's tru thru numbers sound like just a slight increase from last year. Still, last year I went nobo and after a few weeks of fun I choose to jump ahead of the hoard a few hundred miles and I loved it, this year I am starting at snickers gap and will go from there and flip when needed to avoid the crowds.I get out on the trail about 5 times a week. My estimate for March is about a 20% increase over last year with the most notable increase the earlier weeks of March. I suspect some of that was the result of the ice and snow in late February which likely delayed some hiker's starts.

[Jack Tarlin]

Virtually everything on this thread is greatly exaggerated, especially numbers of hikers, numbers of those quitting at Woody Gap, Neel Gap, etc. This year's numbers of Northbounders will ultimately be very similar to last year's, will MAYBE be up 5-10% but no more. We will see a rather late season, i.e., a busier early April as many folks have wisely decided to push their starts back a bit because of the severity of the weather. But truly, many of the above comments about numbers, crowding, massive increase of thru-hikers this year......these comments have no basis in fact. -------JT, Blairsville GA (Neel Gap).

[fins1838]

And the next thing u know the Americans With Disabilities Act will make them install ramps & other items so the handicapped can do the AT.

[4eyedbuzzard]

And the next thing u know the Americans With Disabilities Act will make them install ramps & other items so the handicapped can do the AT.Well, there are actually a couple of miles of the AT that are accessible http://www.trailspace.com/articles/2010/03/24/wheelchair-accessible-appalachian-trail.html . I think that the small degree of happiness brought to those who can only experience a few miles of the AT because of their disabilities is worth any slight disruption of the rest of the 2180 mile experience for all the rest of us fortunate enough to not to be prevented from hiking. But don't worry, ADA won't pave the AT. See 1017 and 1019.2 at http://www.access-board.gov/guidelines-and-standards/recreation-facilities/outdoor-developed-areas/draft-final-guidelines/text-of-theguidelines as to why it wouldn't happen.

[Slo-go'en]

And the next thing u know the Americans With Disabilities Act will make them install ramps & other items so the handicapped can do the AT.

It did however force new privies to be wheel chair accessible which is quite silly. Sometimes there is no common sense when applying these laws.

[swonut]

It did however force new privies to be wheel chair accessible which is quite silly. Sometimes there is no common sense when applying these laws.

Compliance is often easier than seeking exception. However, in this day and age, is there any real issue with making the privy ADA compliant. I know the design helped me out, and I do appreciate functional design. As my wife said, you never really fully notice it, until you have knee surgery, and then all of a sudden a new world is opened up to you.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Compliance is often easier than seeking exception. However, in this day and age, is there any real issue with making the privy ADA compliant. I know the design helped me out, and I do appreciate functional design. As my wife said, you never really fully notice it, until you have knee surgery, and then all of a sudden a new world is opened up to you.

Yup. I had a very minor taste of this a few weeks ago when I messed up my knee pretty bad. I was still able to walk, but taking a step on stairs caused a searing pain that I could barely handle. In the couple of weeks before it healed I found myself suddenly making use of all those handicap accessable features around town that I had never really made note of before, and I was greatful that they were there.

The handicap privy's may be a little silly, but I am proud of the fact that CT has a section of the trail that is wheelchair accessable, it's nice to know that everyone has chance to hike at least a little bit of the trail in my state if they so desire.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Here's a thought just for fun; even if there really were 150 hikers at springer that day (which I don't believe there really were), how crowded would that really be?

The image of 150 people standing at the plaque might seem excessive, but they wouldn't all be there at once. Even if they were all starting out in the morning and early afternoon and split out roughly evenly over the 6 hour period of 7AM to 1PM, that would be 25 hikers per hour on the trail, or just over one hiker every two minutes. Considering that a lot of them would be in pairs or groups, lets say that half of them were alone and half of them were paired up, which would make an average of 1.5 people per group, and would mean that about 16 people/groups per hour were actually walking down the trail, this would mean that there were hikers every 3-4 minutes. That might seem like a lot of people, but it hardly seems like it qualifies as a mob. :rolleyes:

[Slo-go'en]

Compliance is often easier than seeking exception. However, in this day and age, is there any real issue with making the privy ADA compliant. I know the design helped me out, and I do appreciate functional design. As my wife said, you never really fully notice it, until you have knee surgery, and then all of a sudden a new world is opened up to you.

There is a major problem with the privy ramp, it can be quite slippery when wet or icy. I've known people to take a fall on these and have come real close a few times myself. The slope of the ramp makes it much more likely to take a spill then if there were steps. I've learned to use a lot of caution on those ramps.

[Waterbuffalo]

I hiked this past weekend from Deep Gap NC to Dicks creek gap, GA we counted 162 NOBO passing us. There were 20+ tents at Bly gap where we camped. Going against the flow was crazy to see.

[mattjv89]

Here's something else I'm now noticing, the first logical shelter out of town is always really full because of a bottleneck then it spreads out. First day out of Hiawassee muskrat creek was a zoo then it split between carter gap and beech gap the next day. Norovirus seems to be in the air, a few nights ago someone was evaced out of muskrat creek area for uncontrollable vomiting. The privies are a mess, I am grateful for my trowel and am cat holeing 100% of the time. Strangely the crowd seems a bit thicker pushing into NC which doesn't add up to me when considering 40% of nobos give or take have dropped by the border, or so the ridge runner says. I said it last post and I'm seeing it again in franklin, stay the heck outta town behind what is reasonably necessary and you'll dodge a lot of crowds. Almost all of the bubble I've been around the past few days is staying over to get trashed at Haven's motel while i move up to siler bald with the 5 hours of daylight left, probably going to be a bit quieter. Still not much litter, the pot smoking is getting a little more brazen but still avoidant of a big audience or kids in my experience, have yet to see one person drunk on trail.

[illabelle]

We hiked Saturday afternoon from Davenport Gap into the Smokies about 3.5 miles handing out soft drinks and fruit (getting a workout and doing a little trail magic at the same time). We saw about 8 thru-hikers at the road where they exit the park, and 8-12 more within the next half-hour, then nobody for an hour or so, until shortly before we turned around. We stopped at the shelter on our way out. About 10 people there, maybe less. Definitely not full.

[mountain squid]

Saw a TJ entry last night which reported there was a rumor 150 people started at Springer yesterday, April 1st. (he was at Hiker Hostel heading out today) If true, that's totally nuts!

FS42 must have been like an interstate. I can't imagine that many people trying to find a place to camp along the first 10 miles of trial - or the next 10 miles. One part of me is glad I'm nowhere near there while another part of me thinks it would be fun to witness the madness. It's always fun to watch that many people try to set up their tents for the first time...There weren't that many on April Fools Day. I counted 63 NOBOs and 20 sectioners on 4/1. Not anywhere close to 150.


Hiker Hostel has been giving updates at their FB page. Those big numbers are accurate. I wonder how the volunteer AT ridge runners and GATC trail workers are holding up.I don't know exactly what they have posted but 150 is inaccurate. I know Josh got the March numbers from Amicalola Falls SP and approximately doubled that total to come up with a daily average for March. I think he come up with approx 50 hikers starting per day.

When I left yesterday (Sun, 4/5) I gave the Hiker Hostel my numbers from the previous week. Altogether I saw 443 NOBO's for an avg of 49 per day also an avg of 31 sectioners per day. Sectioners includes large groups and other hikers that might only be out for a night or two, but it also includes some that are hiking to HF.


Although I wasn't there I am 99.9% confident calling that 150 number a gross exaggeration.It is.

See you on the trail,
mt squid

how to hike (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?73587-how-to-hike)

[Traveler]

And the next thing u know the Americans With Disabilities Act will make them install ramps & other items so the handicapped can do the AT.

One day I hope you acquire the maturity to see your point of view for what it is.

[Slo-go'en]

When I left yesterday (Sun, 4/5) I gave the Hiker Hostel my numbers from the previous week. Altogether I saw 443 NOBO's for an avg of 49 per day also an avg of 31 sectioners per day. Sectioners includes large groups and other hikers that might only be out for a night or two, but it also includes some that are hiking to HF.

49+31 = 80 per day? 443/7 = 63/day. Am I missing something here? Anyway you cut it, that's a lot of people passing through. Even if a lot of those were short section hikers, it still pushes the facilities to the limit for that area. I bet fire wood is becoming scarce...

[Traveler]

Donner... table of 8, Donner?

[mountain squid]

49+31 = 80 per day? 443/7 = 63/day. Am I missing something here? Anyway you cut it, that's a lot of people passing through. Even if a lot of those were short section hikers, it still pushes the facilities to the limit for that area. I bet fire wood is becoming scarce...443/9 days = 49 per day. 281/9 = 31 per day. 443+281=724/9 = 80 per day.

Indeed, there were lots of hikers down there. Check out my 'observations from fs42 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/14493-observations-from-fs42-(advice-for-first-week-on-trail)?p=1961499#post1961499)' thread for more stats.

See you on the trail,
mt squid

[MuddyWaters]

49+31 = 80 per day? 443/7 = 63/day. Am I missing something here? Anyway you cut it, that's a lot of people passing through. Even if a lot of those were short section hikers, it still pushes the facilities to the limit for that area. I bet fire wood is becoming scarce...


They are not evenly spaced out. April 1 is no longer the peak either from some trends Ive seen past years. I think peak occurs around 2nd -3rd week of march these days. So whatever get figured, the peak is higher by a significant percentage, maybe 25%, maybe more. I think the 150 was April fools. I wouldnt be surprised if 100-120 started at some point though. .

[Del Q]

We were on Springer for a section hike on Sunday March 15th - at about 3pm 70 had started that day, 50 the day before.

Actually, the trail, hostels, shelters, etc were not nearly as busy as I would have thought.

[mattjv89]

It is.

See you on the trail,
[]

Squid are you going to be out hiking? It would be cool to meet a white blazer in person. I'm going by Slow Ride out here and usually easy to spot as I have one of the only Hyperlite packs I've seen. Doing about 11 tomorrow and the next leading to nearo at the NOC. maybe I'll see ya.


Well tonight is an interesting sight, first full day leading to night of rain I've seen at a shelter up here on Siler. I was right that most of the folks I was with stayed in Franklin but wrong to think the trail would empty out. There are multiple people in the shelter with sleeping bags in the dirt, no idea whether that is due to preference or lack of tent. The next few days sound like rain rain rain so it's time to retreat to dispersed tent sites. I usually tent nearby because i like the social scene at shelters but nothing has screamed norovirus ridden cesspool louder than what I saw tonight haha. Watching the food bags go in trees every night has been humorous too. I have no interest in revisiting the sleeping with vs hanging debate, but it suffices to say tossing your bag into a rhododendron bush may result in lack of breakfast. Or hanging from a branch that results in your bag being 12 feet high and 0 inches from a large easily climbed trunk. I try to educate when people want to hear it but they don't always want to or care. Such interesting times out here consolidating what I've heard about with what I'm seeing every day. Still no regrets and overall happy with going smack in the middle of the bubble, despite a few folks starting to live up the hiker trash thing perhaps a bit much the overwhelming majority I meet every day are fantastic people it is a pleasure to share the trail with.

[Jake2c]

I visited Springer the end of Feb which is when I will start next year. Hiked about 6 hours with my wife, we saw 7 people on the trail, 4 of them in a group. Not what I would call crowded at all. I think the trail can handle 150 if the hikers are responsible, stay on the trail and leave no trace. Not sure the camp sites can though. Fact is that the world is a pretty crowded place but the trail will thin out as you go. Most the crowds I expect to run in to will be later on, day hikers.

[fins1838]

Thanks for that info. Glad to know. Got a few more years before my attempt. (But was really just being sarcastic). Much respect for the ADA.

[brancher]

Leaving Monday. Leaving from Bly and going nobo to NOC or Fontana depending on my mood. Doing a shakedown of a week or two before my real debarkation from HF on 02 May. I will let you know what I see (not that it matters). I expect to see a lot of folks in and around the shelters, but not wall-to-wall throughout the route.

[Jack Tarlin]

Just to be perfectly clear, the reports of norovirus in North Georgia and the North Carolina border are also either greatly exaggerated, or more likely, at this date, false. those who spread this sort of information are performing no good service to anyone. Neither here at Neel Gap, at nearby Helen, Hiawassee, or anywhere near here has there been anything like a confirmed instance of illness.

[mattjv89]

Just to be perfectly clear, the reports of norovirus in North Georgia and the North Carolina border are also either greatly exaggerated, or more likely, at this date, false. those who spread this sort of information are performing no good service to anyone. Neither here at Neel Gap, at nearby Helen, Hiawassee, or anywhere near here has there been anything like a confirmed instance of illness.

Well just today I had the pleasure of reuniting with a hiker who last week was medevaced and hospitalized for several days due to rapid onset uncontrollable vomiting from the vicinity of muskrat creek shelter which seems pretty close to Hiawassee. I'm quite certain that hiker's experience was neither exaggerated nor false. Most privies are near or over capacity and often the whole shelter area smells like an open sewer when the wind favors it. Nobody I've met on the trail
Is spreading more than accounts of real incidents and suggestions about the standard Norovirus precautions. Maybe these false reports are strictly a keyboard borne Illness??

[Slo-go'en]

Well just today I had the pleasure of reuniting with a hiker who last week was medevaced and hospitalized for several days due to rapid onset uncontrollable vomiting from the vicinity of muskrat creek shelter

Was this an isolated case or did many other people +/- a few days of this shelter also have problems? Last years norovirous outbreak had large numbers of people getting sick. That does not seem to be the case this year.

[mattjv89]

Slo, to my knowledge it was isolated and I also don't have confirmation it was in fact Noro but the hiker was fine till after dinner and the word is that 5 rescuers got sick too so it certainly has the marks of highly contagious and rapid onset. It does seem a little early for a full outbreak from what I read last year but the conditions are certainly prime for it between crowded shelters/hostels and full privies. Also from my point of view it seems like many people are not taking the standard precautions. Time will tell...

[MuddyWaters]

Most privies are near or over capacity and often the whole shelter area smells like an open sewer when the wind favors it. Nobody I've met on the trail
Is spreading more than accounts of real incidents and suggestions about the standard Norovirus precautions. Maybe these false reports are strictly a keyboard borne Illness??

There is a difference between a moldering privy, and a big pile of $h_t. The difference lies in rate of accumulation.

[2015 Lady Thru-Hiker]

Saw a TJ entry last night which reported there was a rumor 150 people started at Springer yesterday, April 1st. (he was at Hiker Hostel heading out today) If true, that's totally nuts!

FS42 must have been like an interstate. I can't imagine that many people trying to find a place to camp along the first 10 miles of trial - or the next 10 miles. One part of me is glad I'm nowhere near there while another part of me thinks it would be fun to witness the madness. It's always fun to watch that many people try to set up their tents for the first time...

I started on the 2nd and was told at the visitors center that 44 started on the 1st.

[daddytwosticks]

Just got back from a weekend section hike from Deep Gap to Winding Stair Gap, NC. I saw no such problems as noted or speculated above by various posters. No trailside trash, no toilet paper blooms or stench around shelters/campsites, and no overflowing privies that I used. Just your standard bunch of section and thru hikers enjoying the trail. There was big time trail magic going on at Deep Gap. Also, noted quite a few women hikers this year. More IMO than I've seen in years. :)

[MuddyWaters]

Just got back from a weekend section hike from Deep Gap to Winding Stair Gap, NC. I saw no such problems as noted or speculated above by various posters. No trailside trash, no toilet paper blooms or stench around shelters/campsites, and no overflowing privies that I used. Just your standard bunch of section and thru hikers enjoying the trail. There was big time trail magic going on at Deep Gap. Also, noted quite a few women hikers this year. More IMO than I've seen in years. :)

Trail clubs do pack out trash, discarded gear, as well as maintain the privies. It can be a mess one day, and looking great the next. Ridgerunners are generally hauling trash and trailside detritus as well.

[squeezebox]

Clubs & Ridge runners should not have to pack out these idiots trash.

[Slo-go'en]

Clubs & Ridge runners should not have to pack out these idiots trash.

They shouldn't HAVE to, but they do have to. The problem is, once someone leaves some trash it's more likely that someone else will add to it rather then pick it up and then it starts to grow by leaps and bounds. By keeping the shelter and camp sites as clean as possible helps to minimize the problem.

[jimmyjam]

They shouldn't HAVE to, but they do have to. The problem is, once someone leaves some trash it's more likely that someone else will add to it rather then pick it up and then it starts to grow by leaps and bounds. By keeping the shelter and camp sites as clean as possible helps to minimize the problem.

Trash is like a magnet, one piece on the ground will attract others. We were hiking the AT and the Lewis Falls side trail this past weekend and I picked up a coke bottle plus a pocket full of other trash including a melted water bottle. I hate litter, just hate it.

[mattjv89]

Totally agree about the trash thing, seems like most sites have absurdly no trash or quite a bit of it. I may have said this already but I've been overall surprised by the cleanliness of the average shelter and tent site. I do wonder though how much of that is a result of people I never see packing it out for others. My favorite and a form litter commonly seems to take is what I've dubbed the "trash pillow"
Meaning, if i take all my trash, stuff it in this gallon freezer bag and leave it conspicuously against a tree someone else will surely pick it up right? It's ok to litter if I make it easy to carry out, right??

[mattjv89]

*absolutely* no trash thanks autocorrect

[squeezebox]

This is more of a ridge runner question. I can imagine a ridge runner giving a person a gallon bag of trash and tell them to carry it out. But the kind of ******* who would leave the trash in camp will just leave it 1/4 mile down the trail. There needs to be some way of removing that kind of person from the trail.

[Traveler]

This is more of a ridge runner question. I can imagine a ridge runner giving a person a gallon bag of trash and tell them to carry it out. But the kind of ******* who would leave the trash in camp will just leave it 1/4 mile down the trail. There needs to be some way of removing that kind of person from the trail.

Of all the chores associated with trail maintenance, litter removal is the most common and most necessary. The same kind of people who dump trash at trailside typically demonstrate a half dozen other irresponsible behaviors that are illegal. Even when caught and fined, some aren't able to change behavior that is pathological. Getting these people off the trail is akin to getting people who speed to slow down.

Probably the only way this behavior can be curbed is to say something when we see something. Seeing this happen and ignoring it as we walk by can be seen as tacit approval without any comments about the behavior. If we cannot police ourselves, who else will.

[Sodium]

I do wonder though how much of that is a result of people I never see packing it out for others.

Would it be helpful for thru-hikers to collect trash at shelters, bag it, and move it to the next trailhead? Presumably it is then easier for 'someone' to collect it in a vehicle for proper disposal, but at the cost of more trash visible at the trailheads?

[RockDoc]

The idea of restricting access to the AT just because of increased usage is like the Forest Service in some western areas closing logging roads to limit access to public lands because "too many people are using them".

Excuse me, but wouldn't the logical solution be to build more roads, and more trails like the AT? At least that's what a freedom-loving person might say.

[BirdBrain]

Would it be helpful for thru-hikers to collect trash at shelters, bag it, and move it to the next trailhead? Presumably it is then easier for 'someone' to collect it in a vehicle for proper disposal, but at the cost of more trash visible at the trailheads?

That is a good idea. However, the human nature that causes the trash on the trail would prevail at the spots you could lug the trash to. There would need to be critter resistant bins placed near the trail heads. They would have to be invisible from the road. Even with those precautions, they would be filled with stuff other that what good willed people would lug out. Rather than lug any trash to the end, most every hiker would rid themselves of anything extra. This fact would create a complacent attitude toward planning. People would lug stuff and say they can always throw it out. You can't fix stupid. Hopefully there is a way to make stupid not easy.