PDA

View Full Version : LNT-food waste



squeezebox
04-14-2015, 08:41
LNT is a lot of common sense, keep the shelter clean, the whole woods for that matter, be courtious to people and wildlife, etc. But one thing I'm wondering what to do about food waste. Say I made 2 packs of Raman and ate 3/4, what do I do the remains? Certainly not dump it or spread it around the front of the shelter, I don't want to feed the varmitts. Cat hole it? I,m not sure the best thing to do.

Starchild
04-14-2015, 08:51
You are suppose pack it out as trash or save it for later as food. You can also offer it to other hikers, this assumes that it was not from the portion you ate from, though for some that still may work.

Just Tom
04-14-2015, 09:15
Just did a section on LNT with the scouts over the weekend. There are a lot of materials out there that would help explain the practical implementation of LNT. Some is common sense, but some other have specific best-practices, such as Starchild has mentioned with extra food you pack it out and never try to bury it.

Damn Yankee
04-14-2015, 09:19
I normally have a trash bag for trash and a gallon ziplock for food waste, then pack it out.

BirdBrain
04-14-2015, 09:20
Carry it out. You lugged it in. You have already proven that you are able to carry it. If you freezer bag cozy cook, your food is already in a container suited for carrying. If you freezer bag cook, your pot does not need cleaning.

Pedaling Fool
04-14-2015, 09:57
I'm almost religious in my practice of LNT -- I leave no trace of food in my garbage. Absolutely no food goes in my recycling bin, nor in my garbage, everything goes into the ground. And I do the same thing in the woods.

All food waste goes into the woods. When you wash out your pans/dishware do you put it in a bag for disposal? Of course not and the same thing should be true for leftover food. Obviously you don't want to just dump it anywhere, just like you don't want to dump your waste anywhere. Do you pack out your waste? Not only do I not pack out my waste, I also don't use the privies -- they are just too disgusting for me. Food and waste (bodily) don't belong in the garbage.

You are not hurting one animal by dumping/burying food.


P.S. Obviously you don't just dump food anywhere, especially near shelters, campsites and water sources.

burger
04-14-2015, 09:57
Pack it out. When you go backpacking, you have a responsibility to not leave any trash behind. Also, you should figure out your meal situation ahead of time so you don't end up making extra food on the trail. This is not a difficult problem to avoid.

Walkintom
04-14-2015, 10:02
I don't understand. Are you suggesting that you would eat less food than you prepared?

I've never experienced this. Perhaps you should be seen by a medical professional.

fiddlehead
04-14-2015, 10:06
I don't understand. Are you suggesting that you would eat less food than you prepared?

I've never experienced this. Perhaps you should be seen by a medical professional.

Man, I agree with that^
Can't imagine not being able to eat all my food.

Just Tom
04-14-2015, 10:07
I cannot tell if some of the posts above are sarcastic or not. A consequence of not packing out your human food is that you acclimatize wildlife to eat human food which will cause them to seek it out when they smell it in the future. That is a negative for both the animal and the hiker.

LoneStranger
04-14-2015, 10:12
What is this extra food thing you are talking about?

I don't care if I am tired of a meal half way through, every bite gets eaten. Eating on the trail isn't like going out to dinner. It is about fueling the body, not enjoyment, though it helps if you bring tasty stuff. Choke that stuff down and your body will be happier the next day rather than running on half a tank.

If not your garbage bag gets heavy and smelly. One thing I look at every time I get off trail is how heavy/large is my garbage and consider what can be done to reduce it further. These days I am down to empty freezer bags and Cliff bar wrappers for the most part. The less garbage I'm carrying the more cookies I can bring :)

LNT is pretty clear about not leaving your garbage behind no matter how you rationalize it. The smart move is to think ahead about how to avoid creating it in the first place.

Starchild
04-14-2015, 10:21
Instead of looking at LNT as 'a lot of common sense' I feel it is better to look at it as 'Respect for the wildlife, each other and our common home, the earth'. From that all LNT guidelines can be derived.

We don't want to place extra food where it would be unsightly for others, we respect other people. We also don;t want to dump trash in our common home in places not designated as such just as you wouldn't dump your uneaten dinner in the corner of the room, we respect our common home the earth. We don't want to place it where wild animals can get it, as they are wild and we don't want to take them on a path to domestication which is dependent on human, we respect them as well. That leaves very little room for wilderness disposal of this.

Someone mentioned above, can it be effectively composted, perhaps depending on what it is and if it is native to that area, but it would require expertise. It would also require respect for each other, meaning if composting foods is not allowed, that would be respected.

Also the washing out of dishes. LNT principals also leave room for us being human and to minimize this as much as practical (without this part we ourselves would not be respected - and that would violate the founding triad of respect). But this too has a more effective LNT answer, to bring a screen and to filter dishwater through the screen to pack it out. For a single hiker this is not really pushed, but in a LNT following group it is pretty standard to carry a screen for this purpose.

Slo-go'en
04-14-2015, 10:23
Eat it or pack it out. Food waste does not compost well buried in the woods and most likely some animal will dig it up well before it has a chance to. Non-native fruits like bananas or oranges take years to decompose.

I pour the water from cleaning my cook pot into the fire pit. The charcoal filters the water and the fire burns up any incidental food scraps. However, do not try to burn any significant amount of food waste.

Walkintom
04-14-2015, 10:33
Seriously, the best thing to do is to eat it. Even if you don't wanna.

I was in a remote and pristine location a short while back and had a freeze dried meal that I thought was going to be a great breakfast - has browns with red and green peppers. Supposedly pre-cooked such that all it needed was rehydration. While it's great when peppers are still crunchy after rehydration - potatoes, not so much.

I absolutely detested the flavor and texture of the meal but it was not going to, and in fact did not, harm me to just go ahead and eat it all. There was nobody around to see me whether I chose to eat it or dump it or burn it at the stake, but I chose to eat it anyway because it was the right thing to do according to LNT ethics which I choose to follow.

I forget who the quote is attributed to, and I know this is a twist on the quote but at times like that I always remember, 'Ethics are what you do when no one is watching.'

peakbagger
04-14-2015, 10:39
I don't know the current LNT but the old approach was to screen wash water to collect any scraps and burn the screen. I guess that would apply to excess food which is something that rarely happens.

Havana
04-14-2015, 10:42
As others have said, you pack it in, you pack it out. Simple. While I have been guilty in the past of burying food I finally have embraced LNT principles. There are still a few I struggle with (e.g. toilet paper packing out) but I'm all in on the "pack in, pack out".

OCDave
04-14-2015, 13:34
Common sense is not as common as one might expect.

LoneStranger
04-14-2015, 13:40
... But are there other options?

Planning ahead is always an option. Why carry a bone out on the trail that you aren't intending to eat in the first place? If you really need a pork chop go with a boneless loin cut. Heck go in with a few friends and buy a loin roast and slice it to order and it probably won't cost much more than the bone in chop. The point is if carrying a bone out is a problem, don't carry it in.

Apply that same logic to anything else you were thinking of taking out on trail and you pretty much have LNT covered; Carry it out and if that is a problem for you then don't bring it :)

K.Keck
04-14-2015, 14:24
LNT are principles, not rules. However, best practice is to carry out what you carry in, or just give it to a hungry thru-hiker. As you try out new meals and figure out portion control this will become easier, because you will bring in only what you need. So do some research and try out portions to fine tune it to where you do not have any issues, but that being said I am going to have to agree with BirdBrain. I know it sucks to carry out more food weight than you hiked in with, but sometimes taking care of nature is hard. That being said potholing (like poop) is an accepted practice for gray water, but not really Ramen and defiantly not bones, but even that is frowned upon in high use areas like the AT.

ny breakfast
04-14-2015, 15:19
kills me carrying all this stuff out, i sometimes don't know why bother buying light weight gear........... other peoples stuff that is. my favorite leave a trace was when getting to the water source, deification in the water source, most likely a camping f$^%#&^%^(*^ head. I don't know, I just don't Know? WHY?

burger
04-14-2015, 15:43
Seriously, the best thing to do is to eat it. Even if you don't wanna.

Yep. I was once on a short trip and accidentally made twice the amount of pasta that I normally do (just had a brain fart and put in 2 meals worth of pasta). I was in pain almost to the point of bursting, but I ate every bite. I could easily have dumped it, but that would have been wrong and irreponsible.

To steal a line from Nike: just eat it.

tagg
04-14-2015, 16:10
Seriously?

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/110665-LNT-food-waste



Which of the following most accurately reflects what is happening to squeezebox?

A) He is experiencing serious memory problems which should be evaluated by a medical professional.
B) He has run out of questions to ask and has decided that the best way to increase his post count is to simply post the same question multiple times.
C) He REALLY wants to dump his ramen in the woods, but everybody told him to carry it out so he is just going to keep asking until someone tells him it's okay.

Starchild
04-14-2015, 16:48
Which of the following most accurately reflects what is happening to squeezebox?

A) He is experiencing serious memory problems which should be evaluated by a medical professional.
B) He has run out of questions to ask and has decided that the best way to increase his post count is to simply post the same question multiple times.
C) He REALLY wants to dump his ramen in the woods, but everybody told him to carry it out so he is just going to keep asking until someone tells him it's okay.

D) Spices

BirdBrain
04-14-2015, 16:52
D) Spices

Har! Spit take! :D

Walkintom
04-14-2015, 17:05
E) He's not super forum savvy and didn't see his first thread so he posted it again since it vanished.

MuddyWaters
04-14-2015, 22:49
Do not ever cook more than you will eat. You can always cook more. You cant uncook heavy wet food.

Starchild
04-14-2015, 23:13
.... You cant uncook heavy wet food.

Well you can it's called dehydrating, but hard to do on the trail.

misprof
04-15-2015, 02:42
Depending on what you cooked, most carbs and vegetables don't need refrigeration after being cooked. This does depend on a few factors. Temperature over 85 . . No. Animal protein in it . . . No. Potatoes not so much. But straight up noodles or rice with vegetables can last the night. If another hiker does not want it, save it for breakfast.

Pedaling Fool
04-15-2015, 07:44
I'm almost religious in my practice of LNT -- I leave no trace of food in my garbage. Absolutely no food goes in my recycling bin, nor in my garbage, everything goes into the ground. And I do the same thing in the woods.

All food waste goes into the woods. When you wash out your pans/dishware do you put it in a bag for disposal? Of course not and the same thing should be true for leftover food. Obviously you don't want to just dump it anywhere, just like you don't want to dump your waste anywhere. Do you pack out your waste? Not only do I not pack out my waste, I also don't use the privies -- they are just too disgusting for me. Food and waste (bodily) don't belong in the garbage.

You are not hurting one animal by dumping/burying food.


P.S. Obviously you don't just dump food anywhere, especially near shelters, campsites and water sources.


I cannot tell if some of the posts above are sarcastic or not. A consequence of not packing out your human food is that you acclimatize wildlife to eat human food which will cause them to seek it out when they smell it in the future. That is a negative for both the animal and the hiker.
Zero sarcasm.


First off, as has already been mentioned, throwing away this much food on the trail is rare, very rare, but it does happen; I remember throwing away a good amount of food when I was sick.

So it's not as if we would be making a food dump out in the woods. As I said above, you don't want to do this near shelters/campsites nor water sources. Taking a little food and dispersing it is not going to attract anything (I know how good the bear's sense of smell is). What attracts the bears is the cooking of food, they do smell that, yet how many times have you been accosted by a bear while cooking/eating your meal?


Furthermore, if an animal does come across your discarded food it's not going to habituate the animal in the least, because there is just not enough food being dumped in a centralized location; the animal will eat the contents and move on...end of story.


The food waste will just become soil. Anyone is welcomed to carry out their food waste, but I will never waste my time with that and if that's against the LNT rules than it won't be my first LNT rule broken, since much of them go way past common sense and enter the realm of bone-headed idiocy.

Starchild
04-15-2015, 08:30
....

So it's not as if we would be making a food dump out in the woods. As I said above, you don't want to do this near shelters/campsites nor water sources. Taking a little food and dispersing it is not going to attract anything....

This strikes me as a level of added complication where it would be easier to just place it in the trash bag and carry it.

In my experience hiking following LNT actually tends to leads to a more efficient hike, not in everything, but the more I hiked the more I found this to be surprisingly true. YMMV

LoneStranger
04-15-2015, 09:05
The food waste will just become soil. Anyone is welcomed to carry out their food waste, but I will never waste my time with that and if that's against the LNT rules than it won't be my first LNT rule broken, since much of them go way past common sense and enter the realm of bone-headed idiocy.

I am confused by your posts on this subject. You earlier said you were "almost religious in your practice of LNT" and yet you seem to not know what the guidelines regarding food waste even are. When it is pointed out to you that burying your food waste is not recommended you now say you think LNT is idiocy. Is this a sudden crisis of faith or were you never really that religious in the first place?

Pedaling Fool
04-15-2015, 13:19
This strikes me as a level of added complication where it would be easier to just place it in the trash bag and carry it.

In my experience hiking following LNT actually tends to leads to a more efficient hike, not in everything, but the more I hiked the more I found this to be surprisingly true. YMMV
Yeah, my miles do vary. I find it far less of a complication to just dump it and not worry about it every time I go thru my bag always making sure it's secured, so it doesn't spill into my pack or on something you don't want food waste to be on. This is especially important, since I don't go into town nearly as much as most hikers, i.e. most hikers seem to hit a town every 3-days, whereas I stay out at least a week. Furthermore, I don't have to look for trash bins at road crossings, which most don't have...


I am confused by your posts on this subject. You earlier said you were "almost religious in your practice of LNT" and yet you seem to not know what the guidelines regarding food waste even are. When it is pointed out to you that burying your food waste is not recommended you now say you think LNT is idiocy. Is this a sudden crisis of faith or were you never really that religious in the first place?
I was humorous reference to LNT and my garbage containers, both at home and on the trail.

There is no trace of foodstuff in my garbage it's one of my pet peeves to never throw away food in the garbage. My garbage cans and recycling bins are spotless and more importantly, they don't stink. There are many things about LNT that are simply idiotic.

My theory. It's either a result of people attempting to one-up the other person by coming up with some stupid ideas and/or it's a result of people overcompensating for things they know they do in harming the environment, such as always driving and many other things that are nearly unavoidable, so they feel guilty and try come up with these stupid rules out in the woods.

Just Tom
04-15-2015, 13:55
I for one would not like to see what the trails would look like, and perhaps smell like, if everyone just checked their extra food in the woods. So I am thankful for whatever reason it is that people follow LNT practices. Whether it is "guilt" or a belief that it leads to a better outcome for nature or something else, it is the result that I appreciate.

Pedaling Fool
04-15-2015, 16:12
I guess no one here does the composting thing and I'm not talking about some special composting procedure, such as hot composting. I simply throw my food in a pile of leaves and allow the soil organisms do their thing. No stink.

If you all feeling guilty, do some composting....and ride a bike instead of them steel cages and then, maybe, you will see the idiocy of some of the LNT rules https://www.google.com/search?q=cold+composting&newwindow=1&biw=1600&bih=754&tbm=isch&imgil=q4LTXCNeaW8z7M%253A%253BMuUn092zo-5qaM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.commonweeder .com%25252F2009%25252F10%25252F23%25252Fcompost-cold-and-hot%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=q4LTXCNeaW8z7M%253A%252CMuUn092zo-5qaM%252C_&usg=__0dq0EhjpC59Yq6W4Sw_TyuqT-ec%3D&ved=0CD4Qyjc&ei=NcUuVeCZGIOyggSU0YC4BA#imgrc=q4LTXCNeaW8z7M%253 A%3BMuUn092zo-5qaM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.commonweeder.com%252 Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2009%252F10%252Fcompost-leaf-10-22.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.commonweeder.com%2 52F2009%252F10%252F23%252Fcompost-cold-and-hot%252F%3B850%3B637

BirdBrain
04-15-2015, 16:34
I don't think people that believe in LNT think that noodles are going to destroy the environment. It is more about animal behavior in my mind. People that don't grasp that, contribute to bears being shot and packs being eaten by mice. People see it as idiocy. That mentality has turned shelters into rodent farms. LNT is not always about turning the trail into a sewer. It can be about other things too.

Walkintom
04-15-2015, 16:34
I compost at home. My yard, great place for composting.

I pack out from the trail. Cause it's not a great place for composting. Because it's not right for me to leave that for someone else to deal with until it breaks down.

tim.hiker
04-15-2015, 17:44
Man, I agree with that^
Can't imagine not being able to eat all my food. I agree with you for sure, I cant recall ever not eating everything. but it a good point tho pack it in pack it out or crap it out...

Starchild
04-15-2015, 18:24
I think we see a great example of why we follow strict LNT guidelines, it is because we have to compensate for those who don't know any better. That's OK, they are in general hikers who don't yet have the experience and appreciation that most of us do. They are infant souls in hiking, and they need to learn as they grow, as we all did, as we all will.

Yes we need to bear additional burden for these people, but these are our children and they can not yet been able to even realize what we value, they just have not developed that ability and that is normal in human development. While it may be annoying at times, remember that they are really small children, who need to learn and will learn in the proper time, it is not their fault that they have not learned as their time has not yet come.

And Children are Beautiful - regardless of their age. And there will always be children. And Children are messy.

Pedaling Fool
04-16-2015, 07:47
Using everyone's rationale we should never leave our bodily waste and TP in the woods, but I don't see anyone calling for us to pack that stuff out. Why? Your human waste has human food that an animal can detect, but still you leave it in the woods.

The idea that an animal will become habituated on human food just because it happens upon some ramen noodles (or whatever) is silly. They don't know they are eating human food. This is all about dosage, remember, almost no one throws away food on the trail, but on the rare occasions you have food left over, dispersing/burying it in the woods will not hurt one thing and no animal (if they come across it) will become habituated, for that you need higher dosage (much greater quantity and repetition, repetition, repetition...), i.e. think of the mice in shelters or bears in Georgia learning that humans hang food. But I can see many here have issues with discerning...

Pedaling Fool
04-16-2015, 07:50
I think we see a great example of why we follow strict LNT guidelines, it is because we have to compensate for those who don't know any better. That's OK, they are in general hikers who don't yet have the experience and appreciation that most of us do. They are infant souls in hiking, and they need to learn as they grow, as we all did, as we all will.

Yes we need to bear additional burden for these people, but these are our children and they can not yet been able to even realize what we value, they just have not developed that ability and that is normal in human development. While it may be annoying at times, remember that they are really small children, who need to learn and will learn in the proper time, it is not their fault that they have not learned as their time has not yet come.

And Children are Beautiful - regardless of their age. And there will always be children. And Children are messy.

I know what you mean; I can relate and it's what I think of all you car commuters.

I think we cycling commuters see a great example of why we always commute by bicycle every where we go, it is because we have to compensate for those who don't know any better.

That's OK, they are in general commuters who don't yet have the experience and appreciation that most of us do. They are infant souls in commuting, and they need to learn as they grow, as we all did, as we all will.

Yes we need to bear additional burden for these people, but these are our children and they can not yet been able to even realize what we value, they just have not developed that ability and that is normal in human development. While it may be annoying at times, remember that they are really small children, who need to learn and will learn in the proper time, it is not their fault that they have not learned as their time has not yet come.

And Children are Beautiful - regardless of their age. And there will always be children. And Children are messy.

LoneStranger
04-16-2015, 08:03
Can't tell if you are trolling or serious PF but I'm laughing either way. Reminds me of RPG rules lawyers working an angle; You're never wrong so long as you keep arguing :)

Offshore
04-16-2015, 08:09
I compost at home. My yard, great place for composting.

I pack out from the trail. Cause it's not a great place for composting. Because it's not right for me to leave that for someone else to deal with until it breaks down.

Exactly. The woods surrounding a trail area are a shared space and tossing organic waste on the ground with the expectation of it rotting away at some point is not the same as composting. Fool's approach is no different that me tossing my food waste onto my neighbor's lawn and when he complains, telling him it will (eventually) decompose and be good for his grass when the truth is I'm just a lazy jerk.

Offshore
04-16-2015, 08:19
I know what you mean; I can relate and it's what I think of all you car commuters.

I think we cycling commuters see a great example of why we always commute by bicycle every where we go, it is because we have to compensate for those who don't know any better.

That's OK, they are in general commuters who don't yet have the experience and appreciation that most of us do. They are infant souls in commuting, and they need to learn as they grow, as we all did, as we all will.

Yes we need to bear additional burden for these people, but these are our children and they can not yet been able to even realize what we value, they just have not developed that ability and that is normal in human development. While it may be annoying at times, remember that they are really small children, who need to learn and will learn in the proper time, it is not their fault that they have not learned as their time has not yet come.

And Children are Beautiful - regardless of their age. And there will always be children. And Children are messy.

This gives me a whole new appreciation for bicycle commuters. I'm truly not worthy to share the road. :rolleyes:

BirdBrain
04-16-2015, 09:45
Can't tell if you are trolling or serious PF but I'm laughing either way. Reminds me of RPG rules lawyers working an angle; You're never wrong so long as you keep arguing :)

Regardless of intent, it is difficult to debate with a person unable to grasp the most basic of concepts. I am not perfect with LNT. However, the older I get, the more I try to respect authorities and the wishes of the stewards and/or owners of property that is not mine. I can't say that I fully agree with every syllable of LNT as described on the ATC website. All that is left is a choice. I choose to show deference. Some choose to argue. If they are truly correct, which can often be a possibility, they should reason with the right people. In this case, that would be the ATC.

From their site, under LNT:
RESPECT WILDLIFE

Bears inhabit or travel through nearly every part of the A.T. Sightings have increased at shelters and campsites and even small food rewards teach bears to associate humans with food. When that happens, they often have to be killed to protect human safety.
Dropped, spilled, or improperly stored food also attracts rodents to shelters. Even a few noodles or pieces of granola are a large meal for mice. Clean up spills completely and pack out all food scraps.
Store your food according to local regulations. Store all food, trash, and scented articles (toothpaste, sunscreen, insect repellent, water purification chemicals, balm, etc.) out of reach of bears and other animals. A safe distance is 12 feet from the ground and 6 feet from a limb or trunk.
Protect wildlife by keeping a respectful distance so as not to cause a change in their behavior. If you are hiking with a dog, keep it on a short leash. Do not follow or approach animals. Particularly avoid wildlife during sensitive times, i.e., when mating, nesting, raising young, or during winter.

Pedaling Fool
04-16-2015, 09:57
Exactly. The woods surrounding a trail area are a shared space and tossing organic waste on the ground with the expectation of it rotting away at some point is not the same as composting. Fool's approach is no different that me tossing my food waste onto my neighbor's lawn and when he complains, telling him it will (eventually) decompose and be good for his grass when the truth is I'm just a lazy jerk.

You need to go back and read my posts. Your analogy would be accurate if I were saying just throw it anywhere, but that's not what I have been saying and I've explicitly said that it should never be discarded near shelters, campsites or water sources.

I think people are confusing composting with decaying organic matter in the woods, for all practical purposes there is no difference whatsoever.

Just because there's a so-called science to composting doesn't mean that composting and natural decay are inherently different processes. The major difference is that humans compost so that they can create soil, but what they do is not at all unnatural; unlike gardening which involves using plants that have been bred in a way that does not happen out in nature.

I really believe people are suffering from a common perception problem of many and that is: If you can't see it, it ain't there. Or: Out of sight, out of mind.

There are tons of soil organisms in the woods, if there were not it would be absolutely littered with fallen trees (and tree limbs), leaves, seed pods, dead animals, animal bones...

Nature doesn't take long at all to recover its territory, see some examples here: http://www.boredpanda.com/nature-reclaiming-civilization/

Those things are growing, because things are decaying(composting). For life to grow things need to die and decay, it's happening all the time all over the world and it even happens on the AT; it's like an endless game of musical chairs.

Decay/composting is simply organisms eating and crapping. Ramen noodles being eaten by a bear is essentially no different than ramen noodles decaying in the soil it's just being eating a crapped by a different organism. In other words, decay/composting is just another word for eating.

Pedaling Fool
04-16-2015, 10:03
Regardless of intent, it is difficult to debate with a person unable to grasp the most basic of concepts. I am not perfect with LNT. However, the older I get, the more I try to respect authorities and the wishes of the stewards and/or owners of property that is not mine. I can't say that I fully agree with every syllable of LNT as described on the ATC website. All that is left is a choice. I choose to show deference. Some choose to argue. If they are truly correct, which can often be a possibility, they should reason with the right people. In this case, that would be the ATC.

From their site, under LNT:
RESPECT WILDLIFE



Bears inhabit or travel through nearly every part of the A.T. Sightings have increased at shelters and campsites and even small food rewards teach bears to associate humans with food. When that happens, they often have to be killed to protect human safety.
Dropped, spilled, or improperly stored food also attracts rodents to shelters. Even a few noodles or pieces of granola are a large meal for mice. Clean up spills completely and pack out all food scraps.
Store your food according to local regulations. Store all food, trash, and scented articles (toothpaste, sunscreen, insect repellent, water purification chemicals, balm, etc.) out of reach of bears and other animals. A safe distance is 12 feet from the ground and 6 feet from a limb or trunk.
Protect wildlife by keeping a respectful distance so as not to cause a change in their behavior. If you are hiking with a dog, keep it on a short leash. Do not follow or approach animals. Particularly avoid wildlife during sensitive times, i.e., when mating, nesting, raising young, or during winter.



I'm not trolling, just expressing my opinion. Although, I've found that many will call someone who is in the minority names, such as troller...

But I don't have any more time on this subject for now...gotta get working...

P.S. I know loneStranger was not calling me a troller, but I've been called it before when expressing an unpopular point of view.

BirdBrain
04-16-2015, 10:20
I'm not trolling, just expressing my opinion. Although, I've found that many will call someone who is in the minority names, such as troller...

But I don't have any more time on this subject for now...gotta get working...

P.S. I know loneStranger was not calling me a troller, but I've been called it before when expressing an unpopular point of view.

I get your point. I really do. We may or may not differ on that point. I think you know that we differ. However, that is not relevant. A reasonable steward has asked me to do a reasonable thing. Why would I seek another path? It is not hard to carry out what I lugged in, especially being a gram weenie like me that freezer bag cozy cooks.

Offshore
04-16-2015, 10:55
You need to go back and read my posts. Your analogy would be accurate if I were saying just throw it anywhere, but that's not what I have been saying and I've explicitly said that it should never be discarded near shelters, campsites or water sources.

I think people are confusing composting with decaying organic matter in the woods, for all practical purposes there is no difference whatsoever.

Just because there's a so-called science to composting doesn't mean that composting and natural decay are inherently different processes. The major difference is that humans compost so that they can create soil, but what they do is not at all unnatural; unlike gardening which involves using plants that have been bred in a way that does not happen out in nature.

I really believe people are suffering from a common perception problem of many – and that is: If you can't see it, it ain't there. Or: Out of sight, out of mind.

There are tons of soil organisms in the woods, if there were not it would be absolutely littered with fallen trees (and tree limbs), leaves, seed pods, dead animals, animal bones...

Nature doesn't take long at all to recover its territory, see some examples here: http://www.boredpanda.com/nature-reclaiming-civilization/

Those things are growing, because things are decaying(composting). For life to grow things need to die and decay, it's happening all the time all over the world and it even happens on the AT; it's like an endless game of musical chairs.

Decay/composting is simply organisms eating and crapping. Ramen noodles being eaten by a bear is essentially no different than ramen noodles decaying in the soil – it's just being eating a crapped by a different organism. In other words, decay/composting is just another word for eating.

I've been working professionally in environmental sciences for over 30 years, so don't need the primer and don't need to reread your posts. 1.) It's not your trail. 2) Littering is littering. 3) Rationalization is rationalization. Just pack out your trash, please.

LoneStranger
04-16-2015, 13:25
Regardless of intent, it is difficult to debate with a person unable to grasp the most basic of concepts. I am not perfect with LNT. ...

Just as difficult is debating with a person who fully grasps the concepts, but intentionally pretends not to. I didn't call anyone anything. Just said I can't tell the difference because I honestly can't.

As far as LNT goes I like to say "It doesn't matter how close to perfect you get. Just how far from perfectly awful you are." Focus on making an effort and you've done more than someone who didn't. I'll admit I'm less than perfect. I've left other folks trash behind because I was too lazy to carry it out for them a few times, though I've probably picked it up more times than not.

The folks I have an issue with, even more than the average litter bug, are the rabid anti-LNT people. Met a group finishing their thru on top of Katahdin last year that still makes me so angry I could spit. They weren't content to just disrespect all of the other folks on Baxter Peak that day, they had to disrespect the mountain. What should have been one of their best moments on this earth and they dedicated it to being at their worst just to prove that no one was going to tell them what to do.

BirdBrain
04-16-2015, 13:50
None of us are close to perfect. Intent and effort are key. I love birds. I spend quite a bit of money feeding them in my back yard. They would do fine without me. I enjoy watching them so I selfishly lure them in. We have Canada Jays up here. We call them Whiskey Jacks. I first met them on a canoe trip I took when I was 18. It was from the Saboomook Dam to the Ripogenus Dam. Those things would land on my plate while I was eating. Soon, I had them eating out of my hand. It is a fond memory. I repeated this on Old Speck in 2013 and at Mizpah Hut in 2014. I was telling people about this at Garfield Campsite. The caretaker had a good conversation with me about what I was doing. I was embarrassed. It was common sense. I will never do it again. We are not perfect. Are we at least trying? I think most are.

Uriah
04-16-2015, 14:59
I realize I'm almost assuredly alone in such logic, but I'm sort of along the lines of that old desert rat Edward Abbey. I toss my beer cans out along roads and highways and in parking lots, since the pavement itself is litter and always causes more harm to a landscape. (And landfills aren't really "landfills,"...the land doesn't need filling! They're just a place where we condense our litter and then forget about it as it continues to accrue.) Shelters are also really just litter, although at times I was extremely grateful they had been littered about. The same can be said about all the bridges and raised walkways along the AT.

But when it comes to wildlife, I always do my best to help protect it. The animals need more of us in their corner, as they're continually be pushed farther into it. Walking without the stuff may be slightly easier than carting any uneaten food out, but for the animals' sake, it's probably best to let them fend the way they always have. All this said, and as others have already mentioned, I could never imagine not finishing what I've cooked on the trail. Didn't your parents tell you? "There are starving hikers on the AT! For Christs-sakes, finish your meal!"

Bronk
04-16-2015, 15:17
Hike the smokies in the spring...you'll see ramen and mac and cheese in every other spring you pass.

BirdBrain
04-16-2015, 15:25
Hike the smokies in the spring...you'll see ramen and mac and cheese in every other spring you pass.

It would not stop it. However, freezer bag cozy cooking would slow it down. If there were no pots to wash, there would be less food being in the water. The method is very easy and very efficient. When done, the only thing that remains is the bag and a spoon that can be mostly cleaned by a mouth.

ChrisJackson
04-16-2015, 17:23
It would not stop it. However, freezer bag cozy cooking would slow it down. If there were no pots to wash, there would be less food being in the water. The method is very easy and very efficient. When done, the only thing that remains is the bag and a spoon that can be mostly cleaned by a mouth. Agreed. Once I started FBC....I can't go back. Simplified everything. Cut out a few camp chores. Plus, I find making up the meals pre-trip enjoyable. Now I'm getting hungry...