Insight on pack weight (creature comforts and convenience vs ultralight)

[The Splitter]

I've been trying to look at ways to cut weight with my pack. Below is currently where I stand as far as gear with some justifications for what I'm carrying as well. I'm shooting for a 30LB pack loaded with 3 days of food and 2L water but I'm not sure that's even possible without sacrificing some serious creature comforts. I'm also trying to find a balance between durability and lightness as well, in regards to a shelter and mattress. I love the idea of an ultralight tent but I don't love the idea of some of the materials they're made from. I see people on here talking about how they have a 25LB pack that includes five days of food and water and I'm wondering how that's even possible. I do a lot of weekend hikes and plan do to some month long thru hikes next year so I'm trying to get things squared away in prep for the longer trips. In my opinion, once changing out my sleeping pad and tent for a lighter model, I may have found a realistic ideal balance between livability/durability and lightweight but I wanted to get some others opinions first.

Arc Teryx Khyber 50


- (2) 1L Nalgene Bottle
- MSR Hyperflow
- Arc Teryx Pack Shelter (Medium)


- Clothes: (1) Columbia Silver Ridge Shirt, (1) Pair Hurly Phantom Bord Short, (1) Arc Teryx Candidate Shirt, (1) Under Armor 9in Compression Shorts,
(1) Pair Wigwaum Socks

- (1) Roll Toilet Paper
- (1) Travel Size Hand Sanitizer
- Small Trowell


- Outdoor Research 5L Compression Dry Sack
- MSR Hubba Hubba (tent, stakes, poles, fly, no footprint)


- Outdoor Research 20L Compression Sack
- Marmot Hydrogen 30 Long
- Thermarest Compressible Pillow (Large)
- Arc Teryx Beta AR Hardshell
- Arc Teryx Atom LT Hoodie


- Snowpeak Titanium Spoon and Fork
- Snowpeak LiteMax Titanium Stove
- Snowpeak Titanium Cook & Save
- (1) 230 Gram Gas Canister
- 1oz Bottle Dawn
- Bic Lighter
- Small Terrycloth


- Maxpedition Anemone Pouch
- 4oz Bottle Body Wash
- Travel Size Toothpaste
- Travel Size Tooth Brush
- Travel Size Deoderant
- Small Nail Clippers


- Maxpedition Anemone Pouch
- (6) Mini Fire Starter Logs
- (3) CR123 Batteries
- (1) Compass
- Bic Lighter


- Marmot Small Stuff Sack
- First Aid Kit: (1) Roll Gauze, (1) Roll Coban, (5) Medium Bandaids, (5) Large Bandaids, (3) 4x4 Gauze, (3) 3x3 Gauze,
(1) travel size sunscreen, (1) chap stick, (2) small vials super glue.
- 50FT Paracord


- Thermarest Neo Air Trail Lite (L)


- Outdoor Research Durable Stuff Sack 20L
- 2 Days Food


One day of food is:
Breakfast: (4) Packets Quacker Low Sugar Instant Oatmeal
(3) Jiff Peanut Butter Packets


Lunch: (1) Annies Deluxe Rice Pasta Mac & Cheese
2 TBS Crushed Almonds


Dinner: (2) Annies Deluxe Rice Pasta Mac and Cheese
2.5 Oz Hormell Peperoni Minies


Desert: Muscle Milk Pro




Total pack weight with 2 days food and 2L water is 34.5 LBS.




Places where I know I can lose weight are by upgrading my Thermarest mattress to a lighter model, upgrading my tent
to a lighter model and by carrying the Annies Mac and Cheese that uses the powdered cheese instead of the sludge.
The powdered stuff weighs 6oz per box vs. 11oz for the deluxe. Righ away I can see that by going to a Nemo Astro
Air Lite 25L for my mattress and a Hilleberg Enan for my tent would result in a combined net weight reduction of 3.25 LBS.
Past that I'm not really sure where else I could cut weight withough sacrificing living comfort.


Some Reasoning behind what I carry.


- I carry the Arc Teryx Candidate shirt and board shorts for wearing after I'm done for the day.
I like to wash my clothes when possible or at least let them air out over night. It's also nice to be able to bathe
or take a dip in a stream/river when possible.


- I carry nail clippers as I've found these usefull for trimming pack troublesome nails or removing splinters,
a small pair weighs practically nothing.


- My food could probably be lighter but, I really enjoy a good meal while in the woods. We loose
most of our creature comforts when in the woods and eating well is a way to keep me happy. I really love mac
and cheese and find that it's a very versatile and calorie dense food. I don't mind eating it for both lunch and dinner as I can
change the topping. I also carry a large amount of food as I need the calories. I aim for about 4K a day and with the
above meal plan I am able to hit that number.

- Two person tent. Most of my backpacking is currently done with my girlfriend but I'm considering lightening the load by upgrading to a Hilleberg Enan 1 Person tent.

- Compression Sacks and other organizing sacks: I know a lot of ultra lighters advocate ditching the stuff sacks and other containers, however, I really like them for their ability to help me keep things organized. I I stuff the occasional shirt or jacket between stuff sacks to help take up unused space.

[Dochartaigh]

Just really (really!) rough numbers, but you can easily shave 2+ pounds with a new pack, 9 ounces switching to Platypus water bladders, couple ounces on a smaller wrap of TP, ounce on repackaging sanitizer into a smaller bottle, switch to Nano Sil dry bags for a couple ounces, it goes on and on and on. I think my old thermarest large pillow like you have weighs something like 10 ounces...my Klymit X-pillow is under 2 ounces and I like it better! The biggest (and most expensive as I'm sure you know) are going to be your pack, tent, and sleeping bag, but many of those smaller things I mentioned are pretty cheap and drop serious ounces (which add up to pounds).

[The Splitter]

Thanks Dochartaigh! I want to keep my pack, I know it's a little heavier than some but one of the reasons I bought it was for it's durability, I find it to also be extremely comfortable and able to support weight extremely well. That's probably about the one and only piece of gear I'm tethered too. My tent and pad are definitely getting changed out and I'll have to try the Nano Sil bags. I've considered the Platypus bladders so I'll probably pick up some of those. I'll definitely be looking into the Klymit X Pillow you're talking about, as my Thermarest actually weights 12 OZ!

[Turtle-2013]

I JUST came off a section hike where I hiked GA with the thru hikers ... with 2-L water, 6 days food, and 2.5# colder weather gear I was at 27.5 # ... in June, I will be at or under 25# without the colder weather gear. As I look through your gear there I certain things I simply don't bring, found that I never used them anyway. In other cases, I simply use lighter gear, 28 oz pack, 21.5 oz tarp-tent, etc. My BEST advice .... go out and see what you do and don't use, swap out for lighter if you can, leave stuff at home that you don't need. If you come home with too many consumables, or food (some extra is good, but not too much) ... you brought too much. BUT, NO-ONE can REALLY tell you what YOU don't need to bring, or bring as much of. You need to learn through your own experience.

[Havana]

As Dochhartaigh says, there's easily 2 pound on your pack (vs a ULA, 3 vs an Arc blast, you don't need a bulletproof pack if your load is light.) and 2+ pounds on your tent (vs something like a BA Fly Creek or maybe even a Copper Spur). The bag isn't bad though you could find 8 ounces with a zpack 20. Another pound plus if you go with a NeoAir Xlite pad. So, right there you're at roughly 28. Then it's all ounces. Quick look at things you don't need no matter who you are: Dawn (nothing to wash, cook in bags), deodorant (nobody cares about your stink), fire logs (carry a couple of cotton balls liberally doped with Vaseline), Not sure what the batteries are for but they go too, for 3 Days you don't new four ounces of body wash. One this I'd add here is some blister care. You could probably get in the neighborhood off 23-25 easy.

[Dochartaigh]

Thanks Dochartaigh! I want to keep my pack, I know it's a little heavier than some but one of the reasons I bought it was for it's durability, I find it to also be extremely comfortable and able to support weight extremely well.

Once you start dropping pounds and pounds from your pack weight you won't need an overbuilt and heavy pack anymore. The lighter weight packs (meant to carry lighter loads) will be just as comfortable for you at that point (and help you shave even more pounds...it's a vicious, but good cycle ;)

[fastfoxengineering]

25lbs with 5 days food and two liters of water is roughly a 10lb base weight. You can have all the comfort you'd want on the trail with a 10lb pack easy, but that is obviously subjective your specific definition of comfort and how fat your wallet it.

Going ultralight doesn't have to be expensive, but with greater $$ comes greater comfort. If I could spend whatever I wanted on gear, I could make a ton of people jealous of how luxurious I'm living on the trail.. and yet they're carrying double the weight I am.

Trust the new lightweight fabrics. There's plenty of research and proof that they are plenty durable and built for the long haul. There's a few tarptent contrails out there with a couple thru-hikes under their belt.

ULA packs are lightweight.. and once again.. there are a few out there with 5,000 miles + on them.

Usually a lot of weight can be saved in the smaller items you carry. Actually, a lot of weight is saved here once you stop bringing things all together. And I have found a solution for each of my smaller items that was at least 50% lighter, and most often than not served its function better... and guess what! sometimes... it didn't even cost any more money.

For example, I carry 2x 1L gatorade bottles and a 2L collapsable platy softbottle. Cost = $15. Weight = About 4oz. I have 4L water capacity. And each of these items is plenty durable enough. My 2L platy has over 500 miles on it. And I usually exchange my gatorade bottles for new ones in town. They come with free gatorade! I never have to clean a water bottle.

So my hydration system weighs half of a 1L nalgene, and costs less. And to me, serves greater function over a hydration bladder. I have no use for a hard nalgene bottle.

This can be applied pretty much to everything in your pack.

I've used a ton of Maxpedition gear in my short time here on earth. Everything from their backpacks to pouches and between. Good gear. I still have a short list of some of their pouches that I use when I'm out hunting. However they don't have a place in lightweight backpacking. Do you really need a 500denier codura pouch to hold your hygiene kit? Even worse, it is stored in the safety of your bombproof backpack.

My hygiene kit rides in the outside mesh pocket of my ultralight pack... I use a hefty quart sized freezer bag as my stuff sack. It weighs very little, I can see everything inside of it, and I'm still using the same bag now for 250+miles. Furthermore, all though it has some pin holes, it keeps my stuff dryer than a maxpedition pouch would. I know a toothbrush or tube of paste doesn't get ruined if it gets wet, but my point is, freezer bags make great, lightweight, water resistant organizers.

Ditch the two maxped pouches. A practically "free upgrade" in my eyes.

Like I said, everyone's different, but I have found a lighter and more efficient solution that ended up being way cheaper in so many ways I kick myself for dropping money that now sits in a plastic tote.

If you want to see how many lives luxuriously on the trail (gear wise) and has an ultra-light load, check out will woods (redbeard) gear videos for his AT and upcoming PCT thru hike. Granted he's spent a lot of money on gear, but check out how many luxury items he's got!... he takes like 3 spare shirts.. thats comfort!

[Tuckahoe]

Just a few of my personal thoughts...

1) I would switch out the MSR Hyperflow filter for a Sawyer Mini. If for anything just the cost at $40 for replacement Hyperfilters. It would also save you about 4 to 5 ounces

2) Why are you carrying 5 ounces of two types of soap? 1 to 2 ounces of Dawn works just fine for washing dishes and self. Carrying 1 ounce of Dawn for all uses gets you another 4 ounces saved.

3) Why carry deodorant? A travel size is another ounce.

4) The Snow Peak Cook and Save is about 8 ounces while a Imusa 12cm pot is 4 ounces.

5) Why the mini fire starter logs?

Its not big number, but you would drop about a pound right there.

[Walkintom]

Lots of good observations here already.

Why spoon and fork? Ditch the fork.
Instead of Dawn, Dr. Bronners. Friendlier to your skin and will do all your washing.
Way too much gauze. Are you a knife fighter? Mebbe an ace bandage for sprains though.
Ditch the trowel. Dig a hole with a trekking ole or a stick.
Ditch the super glue. Get a little duct tape.
Ditch the firestarter logs.
Ditch the compass.
Waht are the batteries for? Do you have a light that I missed?

[fastfoxengineering]

On top of what everyones been saying. 5oz's of liquid soap!

Here's the difference between the lightweight crowd vs the heavypackers.

you look at us and go how the hell does your pack only weigh ten pounds. That's impossible and your crazy. We look at you and go why the hell does your pack weigh 30lb. That's rediculous and your crazy... Its a viscious cycle, but all in good spirit.

but seriously.. I carry a 6ml (about 0.25oz if I'm correct) dropper bottle of Dr. Bronners for soap now. Its enough soap to last me a month on the trail. And I'm not completely frugal about. Bout two drops to clean my pot if just plain water won't do the trick.

wait till you meet the guy who chews your ear off when he sees you dump dawn soap into the forest. And I'm on his side. I'll go with dr.b's, but some LNT extremists will argue that even biodegradble soap has no place in the wild. And you know what, I can't argue with them because all though I think a drop of soap is fine.. They are still leaving less a trace than me.

and have you weighed your maxped pouches yet! I'm tellin ya man. Your soap and pouches weigh half what my shelter does!

Get a tiny dropper bottle and some dr. b's and some hefty zip freezer bags and tell me if ya miss your old stuff.

I know, I'm pushy. But lighten up! (pun intended) we are here to have fun

[BirdBrain]

Very little to add. I agree with the posts above. I will add that most of the sacks are not needed. All of the stuff that needs to be organized in my pack would fit in a pint sized ziplock. It is in a cuben fiber pouch. My pot keeps all my cook gear in one spot. I can find my sleeping bag and clothes fine without a sack. No need to "compress" anything. It will be compressed enough once packed. The greatest creature comfort I can think of is to not carry heavy stuff. Any comfort derived from extra stuff is far outweighed by the weight of carrying it.

[The Splitter]

Thanks for all the great insight here guys! Lots and lots of excellent advice. Exactly what I was looking for. One of the things I love about this site and backpacking in general, everyone has something worth listening too.

- The batteries are for my Surefire EB1 light that I carry on my person (in pocket)

-Trade Dawn for Dr. Bronners

- Get rid of compass (I have a gps on my phone and the trails are well marked)

- Ditch the fire starter logs (although holding them in my hand id say they weigh about the same as the ziplock I carry them in, but I know, it all adds up)






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[The Splitter]

Also I posted this in another thread but it didn't get any responses so I'll throw it in here since we're kind of on the subject. I will be upgrading my tent sooner rather than later and while I love the Hilleberg Enan for its strength, durability and relative light weight, I do do a lot of backpacking with my girlfriend, way more than I do solo. Does anyone have any thoughts on the new Nemo Hornet 2P? At 2 lbs it seems like a great two person shelter and it would be nice too for when I'm solo as I'll have room to move around. I'd like to avoid tents that use trekking poles as I don't use them and even if I become using them down the road I don't want to be forced to always carry them.


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[bigcranky]

You're not going to be using the Surefire light enough to go through 4 batteries before you can get to town and buy new ones. The Surefire is way overkill anyway (a Black Diamond Spot headlamp with a single set of 3 AAA lithium batteries is far more useful and plenty bright enough), but if you take it, just bring the one spare.

Yes, this is nitpicking about a very small thing, but when you start adding up all the little "just in case" things you end up with a heavy pack. Also note that this has nothing to do with "sacrificing some serious creature comforts." Most of what is mentioned above is little convenience stuff, not comfort stuff.

[Starchild]

The good news is there are lots of ways to reduce your pack weight, the bad news is it appears you are not ready to actually do that. The barrier to getting your pack weight down from your post does not appear to be gear but emotional comfort. It is common to reason why you may need something and convince yourself to put it back on the list. It is comfort in what you know.

Like what you said about getting a lighter tent, you stated that "love the idea of an ultralight tent but I don't love the idea of some of the materials they're made from." Most tents are made from syl-nylon even many ultra light ones. The same material as the MSR Hubba Hubba. Your reason does not make sense as the material is the same. A (very) few tents are made of cuban fiber, which is a great tent material that has proven itself trail worthy by surviving the thru hike. I find it a superior tent fabric to syl-nylon for various reasons.

To drop your pack weight you have to be comfortable with it, you even use the word 'comfort(s)' in your title for this thread. It is comfort in change from what you know to the accepting of the unknown that seems where the greatest progress can be made in getting your pack weight down. It is not gear that needs to be looked at now, but more of a emotional need.

My suggestion is to try to find and attend group backpacks from various groups and hiking clubs. See what they are using and how it is working for them. This was what I used to get ready for my thru hike. I signed up for every one I could attend and that helped greatly what gear I would take, what worked and want didn't work for me. Also great to meet new people. By backpacking with them you will see how it plays out along the entire hike.

By seeing the different equipment used for backpacking trips used by other people in the group you should be more comfortable with it and thus make you more willing to try different systems.

[The Splitter]

The good news is there are lots of ways to reduce your pack weight, the bad news is it appears you are not ready to actually do that. The barrier to getting your pack weight down from your post does not appear to be gear but emotional comfort. It is common to reason why you may need something and convince yourself to put it back on the list. It is comfort in what you know.

Like what you said about getting a lighter tent, you stated that "love the idea of an ultralight tent but I don't love the idea of some of the materials they're made from." Most tents are made from syl-nylon even many ultra light ones. The same material as the MSR Hubba Hubba. Your reason does not make sense as the material is the same. A (very) few tents are made of cuban fiber, which is a great tent material that has proven itself trail worthy by surviving the thru hike. I find it a superior tent fabric to syl-nylon for various reasons.

To drop your pack weight you have to be comfortable with it, you even use the word 'comfort(s)' in your title for this thread. It is comfort in change from what you know to the accepting of the unknown that seems where the greatest progress can be made in getting your pack weight down. It is not gear that needs to be looked at now, but more of a emotional need.

My suggestion is to try to find and attend group backpacks from various groups and hiking clubs. See what they are using and how it is working for them. This was what I used to get ready for my thru hike. I signed up for every one I could attend and that helped greatly what gear I would take, what worked and want didn't work for me. Also great to meet new people. By backpacking with them you will see how it plays out along the entire hike.

By seeing the different equipment used for backpacking trips used by other people in the group you should be more comfortable with it and thus make you more willing to try different systems.

Thanks Starchild! In regards to the tents, I know most are all made of the same materials, it's the thinner materials that concern me. I've read where people had pine needles poking through the 20D floors of their BA Copper Spur and Fly Creek and that got me wondering where the line was really drawn between durability and just seeing how light something can be made and still be made to mostly function.

[q-tip]

My first AT pack was 40 lbs fully loaded. I got my base wt. to 15-16 lbs and have all the comforts I need. If interested, send me a pm with your email and I will forward gear lists with wt and cost. I literally researched every single piece of gear for lower wt options. You will see my complete kit cost $3,500. One can do it for less, but I bought gear for the long term.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/asset.php?fid=18964&uid=20935&d=1362058673. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/asset.php?fid=18967&uid=20935&d=1362058731
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/asset.php?fid=21915&uid=20935&d=1377262692

[garlic08]

...I want to keep my pack, I know it's a little heavier than some but one of the reasons I bought it was for it's durability, I find it to also be extremely comfortable and able to support weight extremely well. That's probably about the one and only piece of gear I'm tethered too....

I know how you feel, but it might be time to change. Switching from my trusty six-pound monster to a two-pound wonder for my first AT section hike was a real eye-opener. I only kept that pack for a season or two before I ended up with a sub-one pound Gossamer Gear pack that only cost about $80 on sale. I remember being very leery of the (at the time) new silnylon fabrics, but that stuff is pretty cheap (good shelters for under $200 then, slightly more now), so I tried one out and never looked back. I got over 7000 trail miles on my first Tarptent Contrail.

Another idea that should be reiterated--food and water management. For instance, on the AT, there was only one time on my thru hike that I carried two liters of water, yet most AT hikers talk about their pack weight "including two liters of water." I often carried none at all. I can hike ten miles with one liter. A one-liter bottle of water is the heaviest item in my pack, including the pack, so why carry it when I'm stepping over springs every few miles. Food is similar--most carry an extra day's worth, two or more pounds. Leaving that behind costs nothing and going a little hungry is a minimal risk for most.

Someone said we pack our fears and in many ways that's very true.

Everything I changed (or more importantly left behind) to make my pack lighter actually improved my experience, so I never saw it as "sacrificing any creature comforts." The miles hiked are easier and more enjoyable, I take more side trips, I feel better setting up camp and I feel better getting going the next day--where exactly is the sacrifice?

[Dochartaigh]

The one thing I’ll add is how you DON’T have to give up all those creature comforts, or to stop feeling uncomfortable with not having backups to your important safety items – and you can still be ultralight with your gear. It just takes some planning, thinking and creativity, trial and error, and yes, some money in most cases to go with the lightweight options which will give you comfort and piece of mind.


For instance, my base weight is 9.22 pounds, and some of the “luxury items”, and “backup items” (which some may or may not consider luxury/backup) I carry are: salt and pepper and other spices, extra flashlight/headlamp (with spare batteries), full first aid kit with ace bandage and all, a 7.5 ounce true bushcraft knife, backup fire, fire starters themselves, backup water treatment, 3x different types of tape/glue, and even a cell phone charger (1.3 charges of my iPhone 5) and a spare t-shirt (again, many people wouldn’t consider an extra t-shirt a luxury item…)


If you add in my real luxury items: Jerry Camp Chair with Klymix Pillow X for a nice cushy butt-rest ;) a 750 lumen monster flashlight, nice warm fluffy hat, some more extra socks and underwear (oh so nice out in the wild!), 12 servings of alcohol, 2 different flavors for my e-cigarette with a backup atomizer, even a deck of cards and I’m only at 10.88 pounds!


So you can see that ultra-comfortable and ultra-light is certainly possible. And FYI, this is all part of a super-comfy hammock camping setup as well (and no short/uncomfortable 9’ crappy “ultralight” hammock either, it’s a full 11 footer with bug net).

[Mountain Bluebird]

If you are going to hike the AT, I don't see the need to have 2 L of water on your back. That's 4.4 lb. Mike Clelland's book (Ultralight Backpackin' Tips) has a provocative statement, which he credits to a friend: "If you arrive at a water source and are still carrying water, you've made a mistake." An AT guide book will have directions to water everywhere you can access it close to the trail. You might have the capacity to carry 2 L to handle situations where water resupply is distant, but typically carry less.

[swjohnsey]

Started one year with 28 lbs. Came back the next year with 18. Lighter is better.

ULA Ohm 2.0
BA Flycreek UL1
WM Highlight
Neoair

[squeezebox]

I think I'll go ahead and start with my 25 lb base wt. and let things settle out the 1st couple of weeks. I admit to carrying too many what ifs, but I really won't know until I get out there.

[OwenM]

I'm shooting for a 30LB pack loaded with 3 days of food and 2L water but I'm not sure that's even possible without sacrificing some serious creature comforts. I'm also trying to find a balance between durability and lightness as well, in regards to a shelter and mattress. I love the idea of an ultralight tent but I don't love the idea of some of the materials they're made from. I see people on here talking about how they have a 25LB pack that includes five days of food and water and I'm wondering how that's even possible.

It's very possible! I wouldn't have thought so a decade ago, either, though. My gear isn't all "ultralight", and last fall my pack for 7 days while prepared for temps as low as 0F was <30lbs on day 1 including 2L of water. No sacrificing what I consider creature comforts, either, except for my Tarptent Notch lacking interior room(I'm just there to sleep, though).

After looking at your list, I would consider switching:
-the board shorts for some meshy athletic ones. My board shorts weigh 7.5oz, while my athletic shorts weight 4.25oz. Both are standard fare with no thought for weight going into buying them, so I don't know how others would compare.
-the MSR filter for a Sawyer Squeeze, and the Nalgenes for Evernew /Platypus bags or Smartwater bottles. A Sawyer with "dirty" bag and two "clean" bags or bottles will weigh less than your filter alone does, so there's the weight of 2 Nalgenes, at least 10-12oz, saved.
-the 2 Maxpedition Anemone pouches at 3.6oz/ea for Ziploc 1qt freezer bags at ~1/4oz/ea saves 6.7oz.
-the Compression sacks for regular stuff sacks-buckles and straps double the weight.
-the mini firestarter logs for 7g hexamine tabs.
-the Atom LT with a down jacket, and have more warmth, plus save a few oz.
-the Arc'teryx pack cover, which lists at 7.2oz. A trash compactor bag is ~2oz, and at 3.6oz, even my 55L OR waterproof pack liner is half the pack cover's weight.
-For the money you're willing to spend on a tent, they've got all kinds of cuben shelters, but it sounds like you want more durability than they afford. You can get a 1p Tarptent that weighs less than that Hilleberg Enan for less than half the cost, though. Actually, you can get a 2p Tarptent, and still be just as light for less than half the cost.

[mlivin01]

I think you can find a much ligher pack. I would use Gatorade bottles for water as well.

[Wyoming]

If you are going to hike the AT, I don't see the need to have 2 L of water on your back. That's 4.4 lb. Mike Clelland's book (Ultralight Backpackin' Tips) has a provocative statement, which he credits to a friend: "If you arrive at a water source and are still carrying water, you've made a mistake." An AT guide book will have directions to water everywhere you can access it close to the trail. You might have the capacity to carry 2 L to handle situations where water resupply is distant, but typically carry less.

I have to argue with the content of this post. I have seen it lots of times and Mr. Clelland is just plain wrong. And following advise like his frequently endangers lives. Just the opposite is what wilderness sense and safety considerations require.

Even in regards to a trail as benign as the AT and way out of bounds for the tougher trails and backpacking conditions. I have thru hiked the AT as well as dozens of section hikes of it. I have come across dehydrated hikers many times and had to share water with them. This was due to following this very approach. When it is 95 degrees or more in the mid-Atlantic and you are sweating buckets it is easy to get in trouble. I have seen times in VA in the summer in a dry spell that expected water sources are dry and you end up hiking much further than you planned to the next water source. Where I hike now (Arizona) to take this advise would frequently be lethal and people die here every year for lack of water on the hiking trails right inside Phoenix.

One should always plan on having water left when they reach the next source and the amount left should be dependent on where the next water supply after that is (some times a cup or two and sometimes a liter or more - here in AZ I know of hikers who have arrived at a water source that was dry and the next one was a day away). During my AT thru hike a woman I knew broke an ankle and lay on the trail for some hours until other hikers found her and carried her to a trail head. What if she had no water and it was 95-100 deg?

I admit I take issues like this very seriously and that the AT is an easy place to hike compared to many, but the situation can change fast and you can get in trouble on any trail. Always plan for adverse conditions.

[MuddyWaters]

There is nothing wrong with carrying just enough water to reach the next source.

You should be 100% sure that source is reliable though. And know your own water needs for the weather and terrain. Having contingency plans doesnt hurt either.

That also doesnt mean you reach the next source dehydrated. You reach it well hydrated, and drinking your last drop when you get there. If you have to press on, you are in good position to do so.

If you are guessing, or hoping, or dont know your requirements, that is poor planning. This is what most people that get in trouble are guilty of i suspect. If you reach an unexpected dry source already dehydrated, you are in trouble.

If you arent 100% sure, err on side of caution.

[garlic08]

Hiking involves a certain level of risk and we all need to adjust what we carry based on our perception of the risks.

We should also pay attention to what our bodies required under certain conditions and learn what we need to carry.

For instance, when I started my PCT hike, faced with my first 25-mile water carries in the desert, I would tank up with seven liters of water. Man, that's heavy. But I'd arrive at the next water fully hydrated with two liters of extra water. By the time I reached the Hat Creek Rim, a 30+ mile carry, I hiked it with four liters and arrived fully hydrated with no extra water and that was good. A few years later I hiked the Arizona Trail, where 40+ mile carries with dry camps were routine (I did one at 47 miles) and I carried six or seven liters depending on temp and trail profile.

So when I hiked the AT and saw people carrying three liters, obviously struggling on the grades in 40+ pound packs, when there was guaranteed water every five miles, it was a little surprising. I thought carrying the extra weight was risky--it could cause injury, as well as take more food and time to carry it. My perceived risk was very different than theirs.

[kevperro]

The problem with giving people guidelines like "always arrive at your next water source with X amount of water" is that people lose focus on what is important. You should hydrate and I'd rather carry water in my body than on my back.

Also... I don't even give thought to how much water I'm carrying in the PNW. Well....rarely do I think about it. Sometimes you are walking a long ridgeline and you know that you are going to need to carry some water. If you plan to camp there you better carry enough for that. There is water everywhere and like garlic08, once you have hiked long waterless sections in the desert you certainly have to approach that with a different outlook than you do hiking the AT. I rarely considered water when hiking the AT simple because it is available virtually everywhere.

[kevperro]

Also... there really is not much reason to have a base weight over 13-15 lbs on the AT. If you carry more than that recognize that some of it is unnecessary. If you want to carry camp shoes, camera, books, extra clothing, guitar or a grand piano...... that is a value choice. For typical 3-season weather on most of the AT you can easily have a base pack weight around 13-15 lbs without getting too nutty on ultra-light equipment choices.

[MuddyWaters]

I personally have a bad habit of not drinking enough. Ill routinely go 10 miles without taking a sip, even when carrying 2L water. You can get pretty dehydrated and keep walking.

I have suffered some minor confusion, probably related to this before.

[bigcranky]

If you want to carry ..... a grand piano......

Man, that would be awesome. Think of the trail name possibilities. "Here comes 'Steinway'!" Or just "Baby Grand" would be a great trail name.

[Rolex]

MY GAWD! You are carrying TWO vials of SuperGlue! No Wonder you're overloaded!

Just Kidding.

Here's my ideas.

Weigh everything. Write a list up. Load it in geargrams, whatever. Just track it. Sounds corny but just like a check book it really does help.


Trade the Nalgenes in on smart water bottle or gatorade and a wide mouth bladder (maybe 2l?)Wide mouth can be filled in stream or trickling stream for camp duties, bath etc.

Pull the center out of the toilet paper. Take it down to about 1/4 roll. store in Ziploc.

Lose the trowel. Tent Peg or stick it.

Lose the body wash and hand sanitizer. Dawn soap is good for all that.

Drop the 5L compression bag for the tent. Put the tent in the 20liter bag. with the sleeping bag and carry the fly outside of it folded/rolled with inside in to keep semi dry if it won't fit in bag with other stuff.

Drop the pillow. Use clothes, hoody in compression bag. etc.

Drop the fork.

Drop the Max pouches. Use ziplocks.

Drop the deodorant, fire starter logs, and do you really need the cr123 batteries if you start with afresh set? Just one set of spares at most.

- Drop the Small Terrycloth & switch to a chamois or camp towel.

Drill holes through tooth brush handle to lighten it. (JUST KIDDING!)

Switch 2 bics for mini bics. One in your pocket instead of in pack for just in case. (What if you meet a good looking member of the opposite sex that needs a light? You don't want to be dicking around in your pack while some other hiker bum steps up with the flame.)

Keep the compass. But get a light one (but still decent quality) Wake up and walk the wrong way on a trail a couple of miles one foggy morning to learn this.

Painkiller for headaches and body aches will help a nights sleep in your first aid kit.

Trade the paracord out for some of that fancy dyneema/ spectra stuff. Splurge and get nite eyez and you can see it at night. Also get extra and switch the tent ropes to it to avoid tripping over the tent lines in the middle of the night on a nature run. (You'll still trip over the damn thing but now you'll be able to see what you tripped over!)

I use the neo air but the ridgerest sure looks inviting also.



Carry the stuff you want. My first pack after I weighed it per the group here was 52 pounds! (that counted the six pack of bud lite and frozen steak and a potato for the first night though. I try to keep it around 30 for 5 days and am happy with the way it rides in my Catalyst.


My 1 1/2 cents,
Rolex

[kevperro]

MY GAWD! You are carrying TWO vials of SuperGlue! No Wonder you're overloaded!

Just Kidding.

Here's my ideas.

Weigh everything. Write a list up. Load it in geargrams, whatever. Just track it. Sounds corny but just like a check book it really does help.


Trade the Nalgenes in on smart water bottle or gatorade and a wide mouth bladder (maybe 2l?)Wide mouth can be filled in stream or trickling stream for camp duties, bath etc.

Pull the center out of the toilet paper. Take it down to about 1/4 roll. store in Ziploc.

Lose the trowel. Tent Peg or stick it.

Lose the body wash and hand sanitizer. Dawn soap is good for all that.

Drop the 5L compression bag for the tent. Put the tent in the 20liter bag. with the sleeping bag and carry the fly outside of it folded/rolled with inside in to keep semi dry if it won't fit in bag with other stuff.

Drop the pillow. Use clothes, hoody in compression bag. etc.

Drop the fork.

Drop the Max pouches. Use ziplocks.

Drop the deodorant, fire starter logs, and do you really need the cr123 batteries if you start with afresh set? Just one set of spares at most.

- Drop the Small Terrycloth & switch to a chamois or camp towel.

Drill holes through tooth brush handle to lighten it. (JUST KIDDING!)

Switch 2 bics for mini bics. One in your pocket instead of in pack for just in case. (What if you meet a good looking member of the opposite sex that needs a light? You don't want to be dicking around in your pack while some other hiker bum steps up with the flame.)

Keep the compass. But get a light one (but still decent quality) Wake up and walk the wrong way on a trail a couple of miles one foggy morning to learn this.

Painkiller for headaches and body aches will help a nights sleep in your first aid kit.

Trade the paracord out for some of that fancy dyneema/ spectra stuff. Splurge and get nite eyez and you can see it at night. Also get extra and switch the tent ropes to it to avoid tripping over the tent lines in the middle of the night on a nature run. (You'll still trip over the damn thing but now you'll be able to see what you tripped over!)

I use the neo air but the ridgerest sure looks inviting also.



Carry the stuff you want. My first pack after I weighed it per the group here was 52 pounds! (that counted the six pack of bud lite and frozen steak and a potato for the first night though. I try to keep it around 30 for 5 days and am happy with the way it rides in my Catalyst.


My 1 1/2 cents,
Rolex

Good detail advice. Trust me when I say that many of the things you "thought" you needed will drop by the wayside after the first 300 miles. If you don't find yourself using something, drop it.

This is something you typically have to learn the hard way. You don't need extra batteries and all these emergency fix items. I've lived long sections of trail without a flashlight, spoon and/or a repair kit for my sleeping matt. It isn't a life or death item and you can fix most things with duct tape and paracord. You don't need a big detailed first aid kit. Most of the stuff that comes in a first aid kit is useless, especially if you don't have any training on how to use it. You are not going into the deep wilderness on the AT. Somebody will be coming along every couple hours (or less) in most cases. If you break an ankle or have the big one, somebody will help you. You can always mooch food, stove fuel, or some other needed item if it came down to a real need.

When I hiked it we had this guy whose trail name was Marlboro Man. He was dirt poor and had saved up for all his gear by saving Marlboro cartons. Evidently you could trade in cartons box proofs of purchase for Marlboro items that included at the time a backpack, tent, sleeping bag, etc....etc.... and so all his gear was branded by that hated tobacco company. His main source of calories when I met him was a single squeeze bottle of margarine and a few candy bars. He mooched most of the way I think and earned his keep because he was so incredibly funny. Nobody felt put-out by sharing a meal with the guy. I certainly didn't. It is a Grandma Gatewood story. You don't need as much as you think and one of the cool things about hiking the AT is you really learn what things you NEED to live and what ones are just nice to have.

[Wyoming]

The problem with giving people guidelines like "always arrive at your next water source with X amount of water" is that people lose focus on what is important. You should hydrate and I'd rather carry water in my body than on my back.

Also... I don't even give thought to how much water I'm carrying in the PNW. Well....rarely do I think about it. Sometimes you are walking a long ridgeline and you know that you are going to need to carry some water. If you plan to camp there you better carry enough for that. There is water everywhere and like garlic08, once you have hiked long waterless sections in the desert you certainly have to approach that with a different outlook than you do hiking the AT. I rarely considered water when hiking the AT simple because it is available virtually everywhere.

?? I assume you miswrote what you intended? The entire point of the water (and food type issues) is that they ARE what's important. That was why I responded to the very bad advise. There is advise often given in hiking forums which ignores basic safety sense. Sure on the AT there are times and places where the water supplies are so frequent that carrying many liters of water is not called for. But it is also very true that many people on the AT do not carry as much as safety and basic hydration needs require. As I stated before I have had to provide water on the AT many times to hikers who were out of water and in real need. In giving bad advise to very inexperienced hikers (as many on the AT are) it is easy to train them to do the wrong thing elsewhere where it can kill them. All people out in the mountains need to be taught to respect where they are and plan for things going wrong.

If garlic08 had arrived at his stop on the PCT just finishing his water and that source had been dry it would have been very bad. But if he was "certain" that it would have water maybe not - but then again it might have been a 95 deg day and 5 miles before the water stop that he drank the last of his water and then stumbled and broke his ankle and was going to be waiting for help from other hikers or spending the next 10 hours trying to get to the water source. Things happen.

It is the same story with being prepared for being cold and wet and not getting hypothermia. Sometimes the AT is like a park and sometimes it's not. We need to be careful advising newbies in the outdoors to carry almost nothing as their lack of experience can lead to them making decisions which could get them in trouble. What really experienced people can get away with is often very different than what a newbie should be doing. On my 06 thru of the AT a guy I hiked with was about 2 miles from a shelter as dusk approached and it was driving rain, windy and cold. He finds a young hiker laying in the trail semi-conscious and shivering - hypothermia. The kid would have died if he had not come along. Poor preparation and poor training can get you anywhere.

I am a little hard core on these types of things as I have seen so many people get hurt or die over not making sound decisions over safety issues. I also hike by myself almost all the time and when you have no one to save you but yourself you get a bit more serious about it.

We should all caveat our advise and point out its limits/exceptions, and especially admit that much of what we say about gear and what is best are opinions and not facts.

[Scooter2]

As Dochhartaigh says, there's easily 2 pound on your pack (vs a ULA, 3 vs an Arc blast, you don't need a bulletproof pack if your load is light.) and 2+ pounds on your tent (vs something like a BA Fly Creek or maybe even a Copper Spur). The bag isn't bad though you could find 8 ounces with a zpack 20. Another pound plus if you go with a NeoAir Xlite pad. So, right there you're at roughly 28. Then it's all ounces. Quick look at things you don't need no matter who you are: Dawn (nothing to wash, cook in bags), deodorant (nobody cares about your stink), fire logs (carry a couple of cotton balls liberally doped with Vaseline), Not sure what the batteries are for but they go too, for 3 Days you don't new four ounces of body wash. One this I'd add here is some blister care. You could probably get in the neighborhood off 23-25 easy.

Looks like you also have almost a pound in compression sacks and nearly two pounds of outer layers between the hoody and hard shell. You could pare those down to lighten the load if that's your desire...but in the end it's about how you hike, what makes you comfortable doing so, and the resulting tradeoff between weight/comfort.

[MuddyWaters]

The AT is a veritable ocean of water.

But, 5 miles without water, is a long way to an out of shape person carrying a heavy load that only hikes 5 mpd.

10 miles without water, is a long way to many that only hike 10 mpd.

To those that hike 20+ mpd, 10 miles without water sources is negligible short distance.

Its all perspective.

[Scooter2]

I think I'll go ahead and start with my 25 lb base wt. and let things settle out the 1st couple of weeks. I admit to carrying too many what ifs, but I really won't know until I get out there.

You can do some shake-down hikes to determine what you really don't need to have with you. Do you pull out the big knife because you need it to open that package of cheese sauce, or because it's the knife you brought? Using your gear on over nighters can help you figure that out.

[kevperro]

?? I assume you miswrote what you intended? The entire point of the water (and food type issues) is that they ARE what's important. .

I think MuddyWaters pretty much nailed it. It all depends on your experience/conditioning and circumstances.

The area and circumstances dictate how much of a safety margin you need. Thirty five mile stretches in the remote desert are a lot different than the AT which is hard to describe as wilderness. In some circumstances you carry extra because the consequences of running short are drastic. In others... you don't have to be as concerned because there is plenty of room for error. You cannot assume the same attitude for every situation.

[Havana]

I never want to arrive at a water source out of water. Granted I'm a bit like Wyoming on the safety stuff, but I like to arrive at a water source with enough water to get me to the next water source (even if it's behind me), so that means I'm normally leaving a water source with 2L of water, 3L on very hot summer days when I'm sweating like a pig. Last fall I ended a day at a campground with a well known, reliable stream next to it and the thing was bone dry even though it had rained the previous day. This was after a long dry summer. No need to be crazy, just be a little more thoughtful on the water front.

[BirdBrain]

Last time I weighed in on a water debate I was called arrogant. I am not arrogant. I can be stupid. I will prove it now by weighing in again. Water is more critical than food. You can go longer without food than you can water. You can do damage to your body by depriving it of water in the name of saving weight. Having said that, I agree with those that attempt to be running out of water as you approach the next reliable water source. Finding the locations of reliable water sources is not that difficult. Thousands of people have already gone where you are going. They have noted these locations. My journal is a bunch of 3x5 cards. On one side I write my daily thoughts. The other side is an elevation profile of the day's walk with water sources and distances marked on them. If I go too far (I am never behind schedule), I have to work off 2 cards. It is easy to carry the proper amount of water if you are willing to research and plan. It is unwise to not carry enough. Therefore, if you are unwilling to plan, plan on carrying too much water. You are just guessing. If you guess wrong, you could be in big trouble.

[squeezebox]

Thanks birdbrain. You're right. it's stupid to carry too much water. It's dangerous to carry too little.

[BirdBrain]

Thanks birdbrain. You're right. it's stupid to carry too much water. It's dangerous to carry too little.

Easy. People get offended by the word stupid. ;) It might be better to say that through prudent planning you can avoid carrying too much water. It is dangerous to carry too little. Sorry to nitpick. Just trying to head off the nuclear explosion from people that think planners are jerks. :D

[The Splitter]

Bird Brain makes a very valid point, and this year I don't plan on hiking with water. I have done extensive research on the trails I will be hiking and there is water everywhere. It literally is stupid to be carrying water where I'll be. Research and planning IS everything. One of the things I've found about the AT and the smokies is that there is no shortage of information to aide in planning and everything (from what I've seen so far) is very well marked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Deacon]

Bird Brain makes a very valid point, and this year I don't plan on hiking with water. I have done extensive research on the trails I will be hiking and there is water everywhere. It literally is stupid to be carrying water where I'll be. Research and planning IS everything. One of the things I've found about the AT and the smokies is that there is no shortage of information to aide in planning and everything (from what I've seen so far) is very well marked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The AT Guide does an excellent job of noting where water supplies are. When I come to water I look at the next "black drop" symbol in the guide and plan accordingly. I'll either dump, add, or maintain the water I'm carrying.

[Siestita]

"I would switch out the MSR Hyperflow filter for a Sawyer Mini. If for anything just the cost at $40 for replacement Hyperfilters. It would also save you about 4 to 5 ounces." Tuckahoe

To save even more ounces, switch from filtering to chemically treating your water. I've often used Aquamira drops, which are poplar with many here. And, MSR's relatively new "Aquatabs" may be the lightest water purification option. Switching from from the Hyperflow filter to Aquatabs would save you at least seven ounces.

http://www.backpacker.com/gear/essentials/water-purifiers/gear-review-msr-aquatabs-water-treatment/

[Paws60]

I carry two liters one on each trekking pole. At two pounds per liter that's 4 pounds off your pack.

[Harrison Bergeron]

Back to the comfort vs weight discussion... I'm hitting the trail Saturday, and I'm a comfort kind of guy. Think I'm ready?

30657

Actually, I've removed the boat, but I recently added a sink to wash my socks, so I wouldn't have to wash them in the same bucket I use to fetch my drinking water. It cost me half an ounce (bottom of a milk jug -- and the bucket is another half-ounce of silnylon). Comfort weighs a little more, but maybe not as much as you'd think.

So I loaded up the beast last night for the big weigh-in and got a thrill -- 31 pounds even! A full 2 pounds less than my spreadsheet! Whoo-hoo!

I immediately added a 10 ounce flask of single-malt. It'll probably get more use than my 16 ounce puffy jacket, but note that one was optional and the other one wasn't. It's not all about what you'll use.

The fact is, you're in camp more than you're walking, so why focus all your efforts on walking comfort? And who am I to expect some stranger to carry the stuff on his back to ride to my rescue if something goes wrong?

[putts]

I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if your pillow's been brought up. But I just got back from a trip where I replaced my large Thermarest pillow with a large Sea to Summit inflatable pillow (the green one) and loved it. Much lighter, packable, and in my opinion more comfortable of the two. It doesn't feel bouncy if you deflate it just a bit. (Assuming you're talking about the same Thermarest pillow as me)

[Franco]

Paws60
"I carry two liters one on each trekking pole. At two pounds per liter that's 4 pounds off your pack."
maybe I am reading this wrong but are you saying that you have two water container attached to your trekking poles each containing 2 liters ?

[BirdBrain]

Paws60
"I carry two liters one on each trekking pole. At two pounds per liter that's 4 pounds off your pack."
maybe I am reading this wrong but are you saying that you have two water container attached to your trekking poles each containing 2 liters ?

Do not take that post seriously. He is laughing at people who shuffle weight in their pack to claim a lower base weight. A least I hope that is what is happening.

[Franco]

Given the recent TrekPouch Kickstarter project, it was a bit hard to figure out if it was meant to be funny or not..
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1026398049/trekpouch-the-backpack-for-your-trekking-poles?ref=newest

[Tuckahoe]

I carry two liters one on each trekking pole. At two pounds per liter that's 4 pounds off your pack.

;) Underestimated your water/water bottle weights.


Paws60
"I carry two liters one on each trekking pole. At two pounds per liter that's 4 pounds off your pack."
maybe I am reading this wrong but are you saying that you have two water container attached to your trekking poles each containing 2 liters ?

I read it as carrying a total of 2 liters, with one liter on each pole.


Do not take that post seriously. He is laughing at people who shuffle weight in their pack to claim a lower base weight. A least I hope that is what is happening.

That is how I interpreted the comment as well. Chuckled a bit too.

[Franco]

I carry two liters one on each trekking pole. At two pounds per liter that's 4 pounds off your pack

Yes, that second part contradicts the first one. I focused on the two liters on each bit.

[bigcranky]

Missing a comma:

"I carry two liters, one on each trekking pole."

Better?

[Jake2c]

I don't know, carrying stuff you will not use is excess weight, if you are using it then I shift to the definition of too much weight. Weight to the point where I'm not enjoying the hike. I used to bike a lot and some people would constantly chase lower weight at significant cost to gain imagined speed. Others would just get a decent bike (not heavy) and ride more often to gain actual speed. I know that each person is attracted to hiking for different reasons and each reason is as valid as the next. When I hike the AT I will come in at about 35 lbs with food and water, depending on how much dehydrated food I can find. Won't skimp on water, carrying an extra pound won't hurt me, running out will. I did that on a long bike ride once. I used a little more water than I thought I would and one of the water stations was missing so my plan went out the window. It was the one and only time I went into heat exhaustion and that was one bad experience that took days to recover from. I have a few packs but intend to carry the one that weighs about 1.5 lbs more than the others because it is a very comfortable pack. I'm not knocking chasing the lightest pack weight or the bragging rights that go with it, and the physics are that if the pack I carry is a couple of pounds heavier than the persons next to me, it is that much more weight I will move for 2k miles. The balance is as noted in the beginning, weight vs comfort. Each has their own tipping point, I am only highlighting that it is sometimes easy to get sucked into the lighter is always better goal set. Maybe weight as a percentage of body weight is a better way to go at it. I will be at about 15-18% with a 35 lb pack. My 100 lb wife would be crushed or at least miserable with that same weight. I will carry some weight that is really not for my comfort on the trail, but my wife's at home when I do the AT. She wants me to carry a SPOT type device so she can track and monitor my progress. Not sure what I will carry but I will carry something. Causing her to worry will make my attempt and any success less rewarding. Anyway, my long winded 2 zincs.

[Another Kevin]

Water carry is very much a personal thing. I like to err on the side of comfort, so I might carry a couple of pounds of water more than BirdBrain. That's fine with me. He's a faster hiker than I am, so he has more options about the next water source. And he then reduces his water carry to be light to go faster still. I'm a clueless weekender, so I never get my trail legs, really.

Also, nobody's discussed the issue of convenience of the water sources. I guess the A-T is better watered than where I go (and surely the water sources are better catalogued!) - or at least more of the water sources are very close to the trail. There are places where I'm willing to carry a few extra pounds to delay the inevitable moment when I have to leave the ridge to water up.

On one East Coast extreme, a couple of summers ago, I started an 18-mile stretch in the Catskill escarpment with 5 litres of water. This stretch was going to take me two days. I'm slow, and there were about 8000 feet of elevation gain in those miles, and a fair amount of scrambling. Water sources were plentiful, but all a thousand feet below the ridge I was hiking. I decided to be lazy and carry the extra weight to postpone climbing down to water and back up again. The extra carry also allowed for a dry camp. I didn't tank up again until mid-morning on the second day, at a point where there was a moderate approach trail that took me to a spring.

At the other extreme, last fall, on a couple of sections of the Northville-Placid Trail (one 40 miles, one 30), I carried a 1-litre bottle. There was water everywhere - the trail goes through a swamp. Each time I finished the bottle, I'd get out the Sawyer Mini and refill it, always within about a quarter mile. I had my Camelbak, and in fact usually dumped the bottle of treated water in there and carried the bottle empty, but if I were to do it again, I think I'd not have bothered with the water bladder. (Although having the hose right by my face reminds me to drink, so I might.)

[BirdBrain]

In planning water sources, make sure you plan around reliable water sources. I do not play Russian Roulette with water. If there is a chance that a source will dry up, I do not plan on that source. In those areas I end up lugging water over rills. There are water sources that do not dry up. I plan around those sources. It is just a choice. It does not make anyone superior to another person. I chose to plan prudently and carry as little as I can while being safe. Stupid is a strong word. I will use it here. With all the information available, it is stupid to run out of water on the AT. I don't. I never have. The guessers do, even though they on average carry more than me. A planner knows when it is time to carry a lot. A guesser guesses and is sometimes wrong.