View Full Version : Permithin use
Tprunty8
04-21-2015, 15:55
I just got a bottle of concentrated Permithin and would appreciate advice on its use. I would like to treat both clothing and gear before hitting the Trail. The bottle is 10% Permithin and 90% inert whatever. How should I dilute it? Should I soak clothing and hang it to dry? How about gear, should I use a spray bottle? Is there anything that I shouldn't treat? Thanks for letting me draw on your knowledge and experience.
Clothing and bug net get soaked in a bucket, everything else is sprayed. Don't treat your underwear.
BirdBrain
04-21-2015, 16:08
Why not treat your underwear? I do. Have not seen any problems so far. Seems logical that they would be the most important items to treat. Ticks head for such areas.
Walkintom
04-21-2015, 16:23
Why not treat your underwear? I do. Have not seen any problems so far. Seems logical that they would be the most important items to treat. Ticks head for such areas.
Probably would be effective on crabs, too.
BirdBrain
04-21-2015, 16:30
There is a version of permethrin that is not suitable for clothing. It is sold at farm supply stores. I am trying to find it on the web. Can't find the reference. The type I am referring to is a much higher percentage and has other additives. Be careful what type you use. Someone help me out and post that info if you can find it. Some people have used the type that is intended for farm use as an insecticide. It is not intended for clothing. Soak all your clothes in the right stuff. Soaking is more reliable than spraying.
BirdBrain
04-21-2015, 17:11
After a bit if research, I see that some people people are concerned with rashes. I am more concerned with incurable diseases.
squeezebox
04-21-2015, 17:16
Well I bought the 36.8% stuff, the back label talks about termites and construction materials, nothing about clothes. I would want to keep harsh chemicals away from my naughty bits. Although they say it's non-toxic after it drys.
BirdBrain
04-21-2015, 17:21
I am going to find that reference. If memory serves, the 36.8% version is not intended for clothing because of other non inert ingredients.
BirdBrain
04-21-2015, 17:27
https://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/mobile_product_questions.php?products_id=445
Down the page a bit, it says do not use this for clothes. This is not the reference I found before and does not list the unsafe ingredients. Still looking.
4eyedbuzzard
04-21-2015, 17:47
I just got a bottle of concentrated Permithin and would appreciate advice on its use. I would like to treat both clothing and gear before hitting the Trail. The bottle is 10% Permithin and 90% inert whatever. How should I dilute it? Should I soak clothing and hang it to dry? How about gear, should I use a spray bottle? Is there anything that I shouldn't treat? Thanks for letting me draw on your knowledge and experience.
Read this http://www.isd.net/~mhurwicz//tickproof/
From what it says, you soak clothing in a 0.5% solution - that is 1/2%, not 5%. So if my math is correct, and your concentrate is 10%, you would need to dilute it 19 parts water to 1 part concentrate to get a 0.5% soak solution. That would be 6.4 oz per gallon of final solution volume, which would mean mixing 6.4 oz of solution with 121.6 oz water. Realistically, 6 1/2 oz of concentrate added to a gallon of water would be close enough.
BirdBrain
04-21-2015, 17:49
Okay...I am going to give up on this search. I am finding abstract discussions of petroleum based mixtures being the issue. Hopefully someone can add an intelligent comment to this thread. I am certain that not all permethrin mixtures will work well on clothing, but can't find the proper reference to cite. I don't want people to waste money on a false hope.
Why not on underwear? Technically, if you treat your clothes property, wear the correct clothing, and wear it correctly, the ticks will never get anywhere near that area.
Rocket Jones
04-21-2015, 18:44
My understanding is that there are two types of permethrin. A mix with petroleum products made for livestock, it has a strong smell. And a mix with water that has little to no smell and is suitable for clothing.
Tprunty8
04-21-2015, 20:08
Thanks for all of your advice. I did pick it up at the farm supply store. I didn't realize that there might be a difference because of the inert part of the solution. Maybe I shouldn't use this bottle on clothing
I have been using the permethrin intended for termites. I dilute it down to the 0.5% intended for clothes. I did so after reading many many peoples reviews of its use on clothes and gear for years with nothing but good results. I switched to the "bulk" termite use stuff because I was spending a fortune on the stuff premixed, Intended for clothes.
Maybe the bulk stuff says "not for use on clothes" because they want people to spend a fortune on the stuff intended for clothes??? Not sure but I haven't had any problems and it seems to be working fine for me. Both have the same smell wet and dries odor free!
Of course use only after doing your own research and always at your own risk!!
Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!
BirdBrain
04-21-2015, 20:45
I believe the percentage is not the issue. Petroleum based or not is the issue. It can be very concentrated as long as it is not petroleum based.
I've had a few retired military men say they used the petroleum based in the service. They swear by it and still use to this day. I do not promote or even advise anyone to use in any way outside recommendations on the labeling. Just stating my use...
Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!
Odd Man Out
04-21-2015, 22:32
I was looking at the Permethrin concentrates at the farm store sometime last year. I seem to recall they had concentrates that were pertroleum based and some that were not petroleum based. So perhaps some concentrates are OK and others are not.
Ksbcrocks
04-21-2015, 22:37
I don't have a source, but I've read that it isn't good for permetherin to make contact with mucus membranes. That would be why you don't want to treat underwear.
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CoconutTree
04-22-2015, 08:32
This label from the army kit indicates they use permethrin with petroleum distillates:
http://www.afpmb.org/sites/default/files/pubs/standardlists/labels/6840-01-345-0237_label.pdf
However, I ended up buying a 10% solution from Amazon that doesn't appear to have the petroleum distillates, Martin's brand. A 8oz bottle was about $12 and should be more than enough for everything I want to treat.
I also read the army kit is diluted to 0.8% solution, so I think I will use that concentration when applying it.
This label from the army kit indicates they use permethrin with petroleum distillates:
http://www.afpmb.org/sites/default/files/pubs/standardlists/labels/6840-01-345-0237_label.pdf
However, I ended up buying a 10% solution from Amazon that doesn't appear to have the petroleum distillates, Martin's brand. A 8oz bottle was about $12 and should be more than enough for everything I want to treat.
I also read the army kit is diluted to 0.8% solution, so I think I will use that concentration when applying it.
Thank you for posting the link...
Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!
BirdBrain
04-22-2015, 10:46
This label from the army kit indicates they use permethrin with petroleum distillates:
http://www.afpmb.org/sites/default/files/pubs/standardlists/labels/6840-01-345-0237_label.pdf
However, I ended up buying a 10% solution from Amazon that doesn't appear to have the petroleum distillates, Martin's brand. A 8oz bottle was about $12 and should be more than enough for everything I want to treat.
I also read the army kit is diluted to 0.8% solution, so I think I will use that concentration when applying it.
I thank you too. It kinda crushes all my points. Oh well. I value facts over being right.
The stuff that Sawyer sells is 0.5%. That military version is 40.0%. A small difference in concentration.
The stuff that Sawyer sells is 0.5%. That military version is 40.0%. A small difference in concentration.
The Sawyer product is premixed (diluted) and ready for use.
That is correct of the content in the bottle; however I am assuming the instructions on dilution for proper use will bring the concentration level down to somewhere close to 0.5% or a little stronger but not anywhere near 40%.
Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!
novasquid
04-22-2015, 17:27
not sure if this will help, but i found this on another board. for soaking clothes, it recommends diluting a bottle of 0.5% permethrin with 2 more bottle's worth of water and soaking up to 2 hours. not sure why they recommend such a long soak time. maybe cut down the soak time with a higher concentration?
https://www.chinookmed.com/PermethrinUse.pdf
Tprunty8
04-22-2015, 20:25
Thanks again for all of the replies. Much bigger response than I expected. I'm going to use this concentrate, diluted down to .5%. I think it'll be fine.
Wise Old Owl
04-22-2015, 23:27
Clothing and bug net get soaked in a bucket, everything else is sprayed. Don't treat your underwear.
Absolutely not and sorry Bird Brain,,, never treat your underwear... Clothing is light sprayed on the outside,
Here is the reality.. sweat can re activate the chemical and because it is a synthetic it get sucked into your pores and the itch for some is mind boggling! Including me. DONT DO IT. read directions please!
IF you have mosquitoes and chiggers in your underwear... you are doing it wrong...
BirdBrain
04-23-2015, 00:17
Absolutely not and sorry Bird Brain,,, never treat your underwear... Clothing is light sprayed on the outside,
Here is the reality.. sweat can re activate the chemical and because it is a synthetic it get sucked into your pores and the itch for some is mind boggling! Including me. DONT DO IT. read directions please!
IF you have mosquitoes and chiggers in your underwear... you are doing it wrong...
I am doing it wrong. I treated all my clothing the last 2 years. Now I am wondering what is going to happen to me. :rolleyes:
I fully intent to do it wrong again this year. :D
Trailweaver
04-23-2015, 00:53
One really good reason not to treat the underwear is that the skin in the "underwear" area is much more susceptible to absorbing the toxic properties of this chemical. You wouldn't treat your underwear for the same reason you wouldn't spray bug spray on your nether region. Besides, if you treat your outer clothing, you really shouldn't need to treat your underwear. Also, if you do have a sensitivity to the product, would you really want to find out the hard way?
BirdBrain
04-23-2015, 01:04
One really good reason not to treat the underwear is that the skin in the "underwear" area is much more susceptible to absorbing the toxic properties of this chemical. You wouldn't treat your underwear for the same reason you wouldn't spray bug spray on your nether region. Besides, if you treat your outer clothing, you really shouldn't need to treat your underwear. Also, if you do have a sensitivity to the product, would you really want to find out the hard way?
I do not expect anyone to follow my lead. From what I have learned via this thread, people should not. All I am saying is that I have treated my underwear the last years. I have not had any noticeable reactions yet. I am being tongue in cheek as to my future plans. I honestly have not decided.
4eyedbuzzard
04-23-2015, 06:22
I do not expect anyone to follow my lead. From what I have learned via this thread, people should not. All I am saying is that I have treated my underwear the last years. I have not had any noticeable reactions yet. I am being tongue in cheek as to my future plans. I honestly have not decided.
Looking in to it a bit, apparently permethrin is used in much higher concentrations, 5%, in topical cream applications in the treatment of lice, scabies and other creepy crawly human infestations, which would typically tend to be the same nether regions of the body underwear would contact. Treatments seem to be for weeks. Not going to do a personal test . . .
Rain Man
04-23-2015, 08:22
Straight from the horse's mouth--
Sawyer's own video of instructions. (http://vimeo.com/39012753)
Where I get my Martin's brand of Permethrin for household use--
http://www.bugspray.com/
Deadly stuff for fish and cats, until it dries. Also not good for humans, while in liquid form. If treating underwear and socks, be sure to let dry thoroughly. Run through dyer (or washer and dryer) before wearing if you want to confirm it's dry.
Looking in to it a bit, apparently permethrin is used in much higher concentrations, 5%, in topical cream applications in the treatment of lice, scabies and other creepy crawly human infestations, which would typically tend to be the same nether regions of the body underwear would contact. Treatments seem to be for weeks. Not going to do a personal test . . .
Buzzard brings up an interesting point. A quick search on the procedure for applying the 5% permethrin cream to treat scabies yielded instructions to apply the cream head to toe, leave it on for 8-14 hours,then shower. I don't know if the shower is for removing the excess chemical or the dead mites. Maybe both. The FDA says this is safe for infants and children.
Even so, at 0.5% concentration, you would think it wouldn't hurt to treat your underwear. Unless, you happen to be allergic.
The topical cream could be a another protective measure if you are in an area that has a higher infestation of ticks. Anyone out there up for some human trials? :)
There used to be a place in NC where you could send your hiking clothes to get treated. It cost a bit but lasted for 70 or so washes. I can't remember te name of the place though...
Makes me wonder ... The thrus that treated their clothing before leaving Springer probably lost all of its effectiveness before hitting Damascus. I figure it last 5-10 washes. So with a couple of washes and walking in a few days of rain, is it now worthless?
BirdBrain
04-23-2015, 09:37
My ignorant guess on the matter was that if it was done right the stuff would not come off even in a washing machine unless done many many times. Therefore, it would not come of on me. Given that thought, I decided to add a second defense to an area that I did not want them to get to. That is why I treated my underwear. Doing it right meant soaking for many hours and drying for many days. As I have stated, I have hiked in treated underwear for 2 years with no signs of problems. I think I am safe. However, I am not arrogant. I am rethinking it. In the interest of full disclosure, I have worn nothing but my underwear for brief periods.
I've read that it's off after 7 washes. So if its 7 washes, lots of thrus already lost its usefulness before Erwin or Hot Springs.
Just t's had an idea..... What if we all pitch in a few bucks and rent a crop duster. We could spray a 50' swipe up the AT which would make a tick free zone for hiking!
BirdBrain
04-23-2015, 09:56
Sure. What could possibly go wrong? :p
Traveler
04-23-2015, 10:31
If not already suggested, the OP may want to try a dab or two of the chemical on their skin on various places to see if they have a reaction to it before dumping a few hundred dollars of clothing into the solution. Better to have a minor isolated rash than to work up a sweat and ignite a body wide rash.
I have also always treated my underwear as additional protection. Also treat all my buffs and beanies/tabogons. Everything I have read says that once it dries it is harmless. The video above appearing to be from Sawyer (a maker of a Permethrin product) states it is safe on under garments but not necessary as outer clothing will stop ticks from getting on your nether regions.
Also, everything I have read states that simply washing or getting your clothes/gear wet does not affect the treatment but rather the tumbling of the dry (I'm guessing mixed with the heat) is what causes the deterioration of the treatment...that and time, that's why it states 6 washes or 6 weeks.
I personally don't dry any of my hiking clothes. Once they come out of the washer I hang them to dry.
Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!
From the University of Rhode Island
"How safe is Permethrin and Permethrin-treated Clothing?http://www.tickencounter.org/images/PermethrinSpray.jpgQuick Facts :
Permethrin is over 2,250 times moretoxic to ticks than humans; so just a little bit provides great protection safely.
The EPA states "...There is reasonable certainty that Permethrin-treated clothing poses no harm to infants or children".
Put directly on the skin, typically less than 1% of active ingredient is absorbed into the body; DEET can be absorbed at over 20 times that rate.
Exposure risk of Permethrin-treated clothing to toddlers is 27 times below the EPA's Level of Concern (LOC).
A 140-pound person would have no adverse health effects if exposed to 32 gms of permethrin/day.There is less than 1 gram of permethrin in an entire bottle of clothing treatment.
A 5% cream (10 times the dose) is recommended to treat children and infants with mites called scabies." http://www.tickencounter.org/prevention/permethrin
DIY: Treat your own clothes at homeWe have info on DIY treating your own clothes (http://www.tickencounter.org/prevention/clothing_only_repellent_videos). Keep in mind, you will likely need to re-apply monthly with the DIY method. DIY treated clothes last about 5-6 washes, while professional treated clothing last about 70 washes.
squeezebox
04-24-2015, 03:12
I read the back label it says to store in a cool lightproof place. My guess is the hot water and/or the heat from the dryer might be the cause of deterioration.
If I soak my clothes or the pros do it what's the diff? Sure the spray on lasts only 5-6 washes, But shouldn't my soaking last 70?
novasquid
04-24-2015, 07:28
"For best results Sawyer recommends hand washing and air drying. When using a conventional washer and dryer, use the gentle wash and dry cycles. Loss due to the dryer is limited compared to the detergent and washer agitation. Dry cleaning removes the permethrin from the fabric."
Slosteppin
04-24-2015, 19:47
I've been soaking all my outside hiking clothes in permithrin diluted down to 1% or 2% every April for about 8 years. I just get them completely wet, wring out and hang outdoors to dry for several days. This treatment seems to still be effective in late September.
iAmKrzys
04-25-2015, 20:31
I treated my clothes 2 weeks ago by soaking them up in 0.5% solution. Today I was geocaching in New Jersey Pinelands where the tick problem is really horrible and I noticed a tick crawling up on my pants. Since I saw it I decided not to take it off but rather see what would happen next. For the first 3-4 minutes the tick was crawling quite vigorously but then it slowed down and curled up its legs. After another 2 minutes it fell off. This is the second time I had a chance to observe something like this.
I guess my main concern now is a situation where a tick would crawl up under my pants. I am not sure if more limited contact against my pants would be sufficient to paralyze such tick.
We used it in Maine (Andover to Mt K) in June-July and it worked great. We could stand around in shorts and tee shirt while others were swarmed by clouds of skeeters. We soaked our clothes, packs, tent (not our underware). We would do it again.
squeezebox
04-26-2015, 02:31
How should I treat my tent?
There used to be a place in NC where you could send your hiking clothes to get treated. It cost a bit but lasted for 70 or so washes. I can't remember te name of the place though...
http://www.tickencounter.org/prevention/insect_shield_your_own_clothes
Rain Man
04-26-2015, 09:01
How should I treat my tent?
Spray the netting. Don't bother with the rainfly nor the "bathtub" bottom of the tent. Permethrin doesn't soak into waterproof fabrics.
I have a hammock and I either soak or spray it. Mosquitoes can bite right through the fabric of a hammock, so I don't care for it to be pest-friendly.
4eyedbuzzard
04-26-2015, 13:03
http://www.tickencounter.org/prevention/insect_shield_your_own_clothesI have always sprayed my boots pretty heavily, more out of just what I thought was common sense (close to ground, grass, etc.). A lucky educated guess in hindsight. I found it interesting that treating boots was so much more effective than just treating clothing in the study http://www.tickencounter.org/research/summer_clothing
What if we all pitch in a few bucks and rent a crop duster. We could spray a 50' swipe up the AT which would make a tick free zone for hiking!
If you're looking for a volunteer to hold the paypal donations for this cause, let me know.
On another note, anyone with chrysanthemum allergies use permethrin on their clothes? Wondering if you had a reaction?
Harrison Bergeron
06-02-2015, 09:51
Just got back from a GA-NC section and I'm happy to report that I didn't see a single tick in the entire 3 weeks. I don't know if the cold winter inhibited them but it didn't seem to have any effect on the flies and gnats, neither of which were bothered in the least by my permethrin-soaked clothes. I left my zip-offs on and still discovered gaping sores at the end of the day where the flies actually crawled up my permethrin-soaked pants legs to bite me. On Cheoah Bald the gnats were so bad that I was tempted to put on my headnet. When we left they followed us and I had to hike 30 yards behind my hiking buddy to prevent his swarm from joining forces with my swarm. My permethrin-soaked bucket hat didn't keep them from dive-bombing my eyes, but then I added some Picaridin-based repellent and that seemed to hold them at bay.
Ankle Bone
06-02-2015, 13:10
Sorry, probably a dumb question, but I'm new to permethrin.
For those who use it, do you also spray it on your skin, or do you use a DEET product in addition to the permethrin?
Sorry, probably a dumb question, but I'm new to permethrin.
For those who use it, do you also spray it on your skin, or do you use a DEET product in addition to the permethrin?
Do not spray it on your skin. It is used to treat fabrics. You can also buy clothes that have already been treated. Google it.
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Ankle Bone
06-02-2015, 15:15
So do you also still use DEET for exposed skin?
So do you also still use DEET for exposed skin?
You can use any bug spray on the market for exposed skin. Repellents containing DEET are just some that can be used. My understanding is that DEET works like nothing else in repelling skeeters but some have cited adverse health effects (http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/consultations/deet/health-effects.html) from using the stuff, especially with repellents containing higher percentages of DEET. Whether or not this concerns you is up to you.
Permethrin applied to clothing will not protect your exposed skin.
Ankle Bone
06-02-2015, 15:43
You can use any bug spray on the market for exposed skin. Repellents containing DEET are just some that can be used. My understanding is that DEET works like nothing else in repelling skeeters but some have cited adverse health effects (http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/consultations/deet/health-effects.html) from using the stuff, especially with repellents containing higher percentages of DEET. Whether or not this concerns you is up to you.
Permethrin applied to clothing will not protect your exposed skin.
Great - Thanks!
Buttercup01
06-09-2015, 01:19
I fill a 24 oz spray bottle with 1 oz of permithren and then add 19 oz of water to fill it to the 20 oz line. Spray 3 oz per item of clothing for best results. Look up the military method to soak items. Items need to soak for 2 hours.
Buttercup01
06-09-2015, 01:24
Stop wearing pants and underwear. :)
Odd Man Out
06-09-2015, 10:24
Sorry, probably a dumb question, but I'm new to permethrin. I
For those who use it, do you also spray it on your skin, or do you use a DEET product in addition to the permethrin?
Just to be clear you treat you clothes with permethrin once before you hike. Repellent like deet is added to your skin as need during you hike. Picaridin is another repellent that is just as effective as deet but does not irritate skin or damage fabrics as deet does.
Allshookup
06-09-2015, 17:15
I'm sure I could figure this out if I got a pencil & paper but I'll ask for help. I found some 40% permethrin (Y-TEX GardStar 40%) at the local Tractor Supply. I want to do the soak method / military method of 0.8%. Does anyone know how much 40% permethrin to use per gallon of water? Also do you use tap water or distilled water?
This link may answer a few questions on how to treat clothes. Also offers an option to send in your clothes to be treated. We've treated our own. This year when we replace some clothes off season (when hopefully they will be marked down) we'll send in a couple of sets (70 washes vs 5).
Link would help now wouldn't it
http://www.tickencounter.org/prevention/insect_shield_your_own_clothes
scyankee
06-11-2015, 10:03
at I the percentage of permethrin did you use?
scyankee
06-11-2015, 10:52
Sorry I mean to say was what percentage of permethrin did you use. Where did yo obain the permethrin?
scyankee
06-11-2015, 10:57
Was it obtained in a Factory Tractor store? I am having a hard time determining how to dilute the percentage for the 40% permethrin I got in a trator stoe.
Odd Man Out
06-11-2015, 12:13
I'm sure I could figure this out if I got a pencil & paper but I'll ask for help. I found some 40% permethrin (Y-TEX GardStar 40%) at the local Tractor Supply. I want to do the soak method / military method of 0.8%. Does anyone know how much 40% permethrin to use per gallon of water? Also do you use tap water or distilled water?
This is the equation to use for dilutions. C1V1=C2V2
Or V1 = C2V2/C1
C1 is the concentration of the concentrate you are using.
C2 is the concentration of the diluted solution you want to make.
V2 is the volume of the final diluted solution you will make.
V1 is the volume of concentrate you need to use.
Also note that Vw = V2 - V1
Where Vw is the volume of water you need to mix with the concentrate to make your diluted solution.
Also note that you can use any volume units you want (mL, oz, L, drams, cubic furlongs, etc) as long as all volume masurements are the same when doing the calculations.
Was it obtained in a Factory Tractor store? I am having a hard time determining how to dilute the percentage for the 40% permethrin I got in a trator stoe.
I use a 36.8% permethrin and I mix 2oz per gallon of water to get a
.5% mixture (same as in Sawyer product). You should be safe using 2oz per gallon. The mixture will be slightly stronger than mine but you'll be fine. Some people mix it much stronger to soak as the military do. Hope this helps!
Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!
Mr. Bumpy
06-12-2015, 08:44
Spray the netting. Don't bother with the rainfly nor the "bathtub" bottom of the tent. Permethrin doesn't soak into waterproof fabrics.
I have a hammock and I either soak or spray it. Mosquitoes can bite right through the fabric of a hammock, so I don't care for it to be pest-friendly.
Rain Man,
Are you using Sawyer or something more of a farm grade petroleum for this?
Rain Man
06-12-2015, 16:40
Rain Man,
Are you using Sawyer or something more of a farm grade petroleum for this?
Neither. I tried the Tractor Supply Company farm product ONCE. It smelled of petroleum and was intended for livestock, not household use.
I immediately switched to the water-based Martin's brand, intended for household use.
Occasionally I still use Sawyers if I run out of my mail-order Martin's and need something quick.
scyankee
06-12-2015, 17:07
Have you already treated your clothes and gear? Did the solution smell like oil? What amount of permethrin (40%) did you use? I was told a person used 2 ozs to a gallon of water with 36.8 % permethrin for a 0.5 % solution. And he's said he has used it before. I have the (40%) and also a spray can of permethrin I got at an outfitter. I intend to spray my pack and boots but intend to soak my clothes.
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scyankee
06-12-2015, 17:08
Above intended for allshookup
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Mr. Bumpy
06-12-2015, 23:40
Rain Man,
Are you using Sawyer or something more of a farm grade petroleum for this?
Thanks. I've used the tractor supply product on shorts, socks, and day time shirt, and although not horrified by the smell, it is distinct. I am wanting to treat a hammock and some new clothes so I'll give the Martins a try.
Thanks for all the information, am ordering some today in preparation!
I am ordering the Martin's 10% solution which I will dilute down to a .5%-1% solution. Does the starting solution make any difference if it is all going to be diluted down anyway? I am not finding a non petroleum based version of the 40%.
Thanks!
Odd Man Out
06-21-2015, 23:01
Thanks for all the information, am ordering some today in preparation!
I am ordering the Martin's 10% solution which I will dilute down to a .5%-1% solution. Does the starting solution make any difference if it is all going to be diluted down anyway? I am not finding a non petroleum based version of the 40%.
Thanks!
The starting concentration should not make a significant difference assuming you use the correct number when doing your dilution calculations. There will be a slight error due to the fact that we are using mass based concentration units (%) with volume based measurements, but only an analytical chemist would really worry about that.
As long as the ticks can't tell a difference then I'll be happy :)
Sprayed my tent netting and some clothes (no underwear) with Sawyer yesterday. Watched an ant pay the price for crawling on the tent.
Pendragon
06-22-2015, 19:09
Could someone please explain to me why factory applied permethrin is supposed to last up to 70 washings while the self-applied version (Sawyer) only lasts 48 days/no where near the washings?
I just received my order in the mail. I purchased Martin's Permethrin 10% and was going to use it to soak all clothing and spray gear. However, on the Q&A portion of the website it specifically states that it should NOT be used for clothing as it contains ingredients that should not come into contact with skin and to use a separate product for clothing material. http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/product_questions.php?products_id=2124
Have others used it to treat clothing without any ill effects? Thinking I just just use this to spray pack and tent items and get something separate for clothing.
I just received my order in the mail. I purchased Martin's Permethrin 10% and was going to use it to soak all clothing and spray gear. However, on the Q&A portion of the website it specifically states that it should NOT be used for clothing as it contains ingredients that should not come into contact with skin and to use a separate product for clothing material. http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/product_questions.php?products_id=2124
Have others used it to treat clothing without any ill effects? Thinking I just just use this to spray pack and tent items and get something separate for clothing.
Always use at your own risk...
I use a permethrin labeled for use on termites. It is 36% I believe. I dilute it down to 0.5% and spray my clothing and gear. I am going to use as a soak before heading out on my thru hike (as to get a better saturation) I have not had any ill effects from my use.
All permethrin, including the kind sold for clothing, has other ingredients/ distillates. My opinion and everyone has one, is that the stuff sold for clothes is much more expensive and they want to keep saying it at the outrageous price. There is much talk on these forums about its use. Everyone's opinion differs but I can say I haven't ran across anyone who has used the kind you are talking about and the or the kind I use who has had ill effects from its use.
Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!
I also want to add that I used Saywers product that's meant for cloths for years and it was costing me a fortune. That's why I switched and started mixing my own. Personally I cannot tell any difference...
Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!
I also want to add that I used Saywers product that's meant for cloths for years and it was costing me a fortune. That's why I switched and started mixing my own. Personally I cannot tell any difference...
Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!
Thank you for the feedback, I read others posts and that they have been doing a similar method by diluting and soaking clothing. I will give it a try. Thanks :)
james ford
07-06-2015, 20:06
OK, I have never used it before, but seeing as I am currently taking doxycycline for lyme disease I figure I may try.
So my question is this; I wear a pair of compression tights when I am trail running (daily). although it seems that all agree upon not treating underwear what is the though on me treating my tights? It seems kind of pointless to only treat my socks and shirt.
OK, I have never used it before, but seeing as I am currently taking doxycycline for lyme disease I figure I may try.
So my question is this; I wear a pair of compression tights when I am trail running (daily). although it seems that all agree upon not treating underwear what is the though on me treating my tights? It seems kind of pointless to only treat my socks and shirt.
When I first started using permethrin I ALWAYS treated my underwear. I didn't know you weren't suppose to treat underwear. I never read any warnings to doing so on the Sawyer product for clothes. I STILL TREAT MY UNDERWEAR and have never had any ill effects so I think treating your tights should be ok. I am going to be treating my tights next year, probably my underwear too! Always use at your own discretion!
Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!
james ford
07-07-2015, 19:47
When I first started using permethrin I ALWAYS treated my underwear. I didn't know you weren't suppose to treat underwear. I never read any warnings to doing so on the Sawyer product for clothes. I STILL TREAT MY UNDERWEAR and have never had any ill effects so I think treating your tights should be ok. I am going to be treating my tights next year, probably my underwear too! Always use at your own discretion!
Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!
thanks for the help jimyjam. I think i will give it a try.
thanks for the help jimyjam. I think i will give it a try.
You're welcome...anytime!
If you're worried about contact in your nether region or if you break out from it you could always spray or soak just the legs on your tights and leave the rest alone. Just a thought.
Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!
When I first started using permethrin I ALWAYS treated my underwear. I didn't know you weren't suppose to treat underwear. I never read any warnings to doing so on the Sawyer product for clothes. I STILL TREAT MY UNDERWEAR and have never had any ill effects so I think treating your tights should be ok. I am going to be treating my tights next year, probably my underwear too! Always use at your own discretion!
Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!
I do the same. I treat ALL my hiking clothes.
BirdBrain
07-08-2015, 15:18
I do the same. I treat ALL my hiking clothes.
Me too. Ticks are easier to find on arms and legs. If anything, I would soak underwear longer. I treat my underwear. Have not seen a problem yet.
ThinAirDesigns
07-08-2015, 18:14
I am super sensitive to chiggers and have multiple family members suffering from Lymes. I trail run and backpack (often off trail) in the South and average about a hundred miles a week in the woods.
Several years ago I started dunk treating my outdoor clothes (sock, underwear, pant, shirts, hat the works) a couple times a year with "Hi-Yield 38 plus" 38% permethrin. I just bought a one pint bottle at the local nursery and still have half. I water it down to around 1% or less (not super picky with the measure), dunk and wring out (using rubber gloves). Dry on line. I also drench shoes with spray and mist coat my backpack, netting, etc.
A year ago started doing the same for new girlfriend who often joins me. She noticed a bit of a smell on first wearing and now just puts her clothes through a wash cycle (after totally line dry) before wearing to get rid of it. I was never bothered by it and just wore them and washed them normal next round.
In all the time since, she has seen no ticks and I've seen one on the outside of my pants which I just let climb to watch the results (curls up and falls off.) I got lazy on one run and wore my shorts and returned with 75 chigger bites on my legs. (I only wear long pants now). You could not pay me to be without my treated clothes.
I didn't pick the Permethrin I bought carefully - it's what they had. Says it contains petroleum distillates (I assume that's the mild smell my GF picks up on until washed).
Perhaps on the future I'll find a better base product, but 3 years in and no ticks/chiggers and no reactions of any kind and I'm quite satisfied to use out my bottle. I'm not convinced that soaking is better than dunking. I'm not convinced that commercial treatments are more durable. It's cheap. I do it. It works.
JB
Snowleopard
07-09-2015, 16:31
The US military uses permethrin treated clothing and ultrathon (time release DEET) on exposed skin. They recommend NOT using permethrin on underwear and head bands. My guess for not using it on underwear is to reduce the chance of dermatological reactions (rash, etc.).
The conventional wisdom for ticks/lyme disease is to use light colored clothing (so you can see the ticks better) with long pants tucked into socks -- that way ticks can't crawl up the inside of the pants. I think that ticks would not survive the trip up the inside of permethrin treated pants. Also, you are supposed to do a daily tick check, which is hard to do by your self.
I've been using clothes pretreated with Insect Shield (permanent permethrin treatment) for a couple years now and they seem to still work, but they're expensive. For hot weather, these treated pants are cooler than most: http://www.rei.com/product/865231/exofficio-bugsaway-sandfly-pants-mens-30-inseam You can send your own clothes to Insect Shield to be permanently treated, about $10/garment plus shipping. I also use the Sawyer spray stuff on clothes, shoes, socks and hats.
james ford
07-10-2015, 21:27
thank you all for the additional input! It certainly makes for an easier decision.
RumpusParable
07-28-2015, 12:24
The issue of clothing and skin contact on Permethrin not specifically labeled for such (like lice treatments and such) is a CYA matter. MSDS sheets on Permethrin state that it is, itself, safe to use on clothing and skin (as well as the long list of agricultural and household uses). It takes exceptionally high dosages to be worrisome. Every company has some version of their product's specific MSDS, but all come to the same as this when we shop the Permethrin brands on the market we've been talking about.
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/Permtech.pdf