View Full Version : Printed WB articles to raise $$, widen readership base
Tha Wookie
11-13-2005, 13:44
I posted this in another thread that I think will get buried, so here it is again. what do ya'll think? I volunteer to help:
I like the idea of having more items for sale, but honestly a cup, hat, t-shirt, ect., with a website name on it is unappealing to me, and I suspect to others as well. I have way too many of those items already. To me, it's clutter and junk.
What I offer as an alternative is a hard-copy publication of the articles for purchase. They do not need to be anything fancy. If you have seen Yogi's PCT Handbook, then you know what I mean.
This market is much about functional information and downsizing than bric-and-brac. So why not cater to it, in physical printings? Who knows- there could even be a market for a cannon of articles in a book to be professionally published and marketed on other venues.
Imagine, a book with info directly from the people who are very experienced at hiking, making gear, cooking, ect. -Just a simple collection of articles, like a scientific journal. There could be different editions, each with new articles, like Foxfire books but about backpacking topics. Each would be prefaced from a word from the editor (s).
These would make great gifts to hikers of all speeds, a physcial document with the perspective of all the great voices here.
Face it, many people just don't like forums. Just ask Sgt. Rocks elder son: "I don't do forums!" he told me at the primitive skills workshop.
I don't blame him. But wouldn't it be great to hand him a volume of articles from the site, or put it in his Christmas stocking?
Furthermore, many people are scared off by the intensity of the discussions. They just want to learn about backpacking, not get in a heated debate about it. I don't blame them, and at the same time, i don't think we should sacrifice our perspectives to appeal to everyone.
So we could offer the cream off the top- the essential information, for topics ranging from wild edibles, LNT, town info, stove making, to ALDHA's endangered services campaign.
We do not have to be just net geeks. There is some AWESOME info here, which belongs in print, and which can be "donated" by the authors to help finance WB's needs for today and the future ahead.
IMAGINE the bandwidth needs if the newman/redford movie ever comes out!
Respectfully ya'lls,
TW
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Jack Tarlin
11-13-2005, 14:14
Speaking ONLY for myself, while I that Wook has presented a strong case, I do not at present wish to have any of my information "for sale." I realize that folks can still get it for free by accessing the website, but right now I'd rather not be in the position of "selling" my stuff, even for a good cause. This might change in the future, if I ever get off my ass and write a book (which has been suggested) but right now there's something distasteful to me about asking people for money in exchange for information. Right now, I'd rather give it away for free.
Alternative idea: Rock and Troll can tell us what it costs to keep the site going, and once we get an actual figure, we can ALL start whittling it down with contributions. After all, if we could get Miss Janet a new furnace in little over a week, I'm sure we could pull things together for Whiteblaze.
Tha Wookie
11-13-2005, 14:18
Maybe we could print an article on a coffee mug. just kidding ;)
I think the net articles should stay free also.
SGT Rock
11-13-2005, 14:50
The idea has some merit, it is something to consider in the future. But for now Troll has worked out some re-structuring of our service to keep costs down. I really hope we can just continue to rely on the occasional contribution, sponsorship, and some T-Shirt sales to the interested to keep us rolling for the future.
But a WhiteBlaze book someday? Maybe. I think it could be a hoot.
,,,,,We do not have to be just net geeks. There is some AWESOME info here, which belongs in print, and which can be "donated" by the authors to help finance WB's needs for today and the future ahead. IMAGINE the bandwidth needs if the newman/redford movie ever comes out!-->__________________
Great idea! Feel free to use all my pleas for help towards buying buffers for the trail in Maine from the development that is coming. :sun
Instead of getting into cost of printing and binding the articles, I would think a $2 a year per member for a Whiteblaze subscription would cover most costs for the website, if not all, without chasing many away.
Then anyone can print what they wish.
SGT Rock
11-13-2005, 19:24
Well we were thinking of a two tier system. Normal membership is free and stays the same as you have it. A higher level of membership would give you:
Edit button
Custom Avatars (we would still reserve some rights)
Higher PM totals
Access to a members forum where you could bitch me out :D
And possibly some other things. So basically eveyone can still participate like you have been, but those WhiteBlaze addicts can get a few extra perks while helping to pay for that bandwidth they use by refreshing the front page ever minute to see if someone has posted something new.
Anyway, Troll came up with some of these cool ideas and we are still thinking on it. I didn't plan to bring it up, but since y'all are talking about this sort of thing, I thought I might throw it out there for y'all to give some input and thoughts.
Hope Troll doesn't get mad at me ;)
hikerjohnd
11-13-2005, 19:28
Well we were thinking of a two tier system. Normal membership is free and stays the same as you have it. A higher level of membership would give you:
Edit button
Custom Avatars (we would still reserve some rights)
Higher PM totals
Access to a members forum where you could bitch me out :D
And possibly some other things. So basically eveyone can still participate like you have been, but those WhiteBlaze addicts can get a few extra perks while helping to pay for that bandwidth they use by refreshing the front page ever minute to see if someone has posted something new.
Anyway, Troll came up with some of these cool ideas and we are still thinking on it. I didn't plan to bring it up, but since y'all are talking about this sort of thing, I thought I might throw it out there for y'all to give some input and thoughts.
Hope Troll doesn't get mad at me ;)
Excellent idea! Any timeline on introducing something like this?
but those WhiteBlaze addicts can get a few extra perks while helping to pay for that bandwidth they use by refreshing the front page ever minute to see if someone has posted something new.
Ooops, running and ducking! :D
SGT Rock
11-13-2005, 19:38
Excellent idea! Any timeline on introducing something like this?
Well technical issues have to be worked out first. Troll is working it diligently.
The other part is acceptance by the members. That is where we must tread lightly. I don't want to make someone "more important" because they pay. The idea is still that everyone is basically equal when it comes to sharing of ideas and such.
hummm - how about making that dancing banana a "member only" option ???
ps - pun intended
hummm - how about making that dancing banana a "member only" option ???
Well, a better option would be to eliminate such things entirely. That would be educational also. It's gotten so that if one doesn't put a funny face or a bouncing banana or a stereotyped grin on a post, hardly anyone will understand it.
People have manged the printed word for a millenium or two. We really shouldn't retrograde to cartoons for understanding.
SGT Rock
11-13-2005, 20:20
Yes, but the Internet allows for a more conversational style than simple letter writing. The "smiley" is an adaptation that is now over a decade old that allows the writer to pass on the non-verbal communication that facial features would pass on if the participants were communicating in person.
Example: A couple of years ago there was a question about keeping floaters out of the water when you are filling a nalgen bottle. In a post meant to be sort of humorous I said to let them get in your water, it was like free calories. I got a bunch of e-mails and PMs deriding me for giving such bad advice - you know, presence of biological materials and all the inherent problems and such.
Now if I had said that with a wink ( ;) ) people would have got it.
What I meant to say was
Smilies are for cowards :D .
SGT Rock
11-13-2005, 20:28
What I meant to say was
Smilies are for cowards :D .
LOL. Now are we being Passive-Aggressive today? :-?
Rock, you know that term was coined by the military right?
Here is a link to a good site that explains it all :clap
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030530.html
SGT Rock
11-13-2005, 20:33
No I didn't know that. What is your source?
Sounds like something an officer would dream up after an NCO says: "Sir, no disrespect intended, but..."
SGT Rock
11-13-2005, 20:38
Disregard. I see your citation. Very cool. Next time my CO tells me I'm being passive-aggressive I'll just tell him I am really just and *******.:eek:
Speaking ONLY for myself, while I that Wook has presented a strong case, I do not at present wish to have any of my information "for sale." I realize that folks can still get it for free by accessing the website, but right now I'd rather not be in the position of "selling" my stuff, even for a good cause.
....
Alternative idea: Rock and Troll can tell us what it costs to keep the site going, and once we get an actual figure, we can ALL start whittling it down with contributions. After all, if we could get Miss Janet a new furnace in little over a week, I'm sure we could pull things together for Whiteblaze.
I feel the same way Jack does. I'd rather not sell what I write for the aid of others. If people want to buy something, let them donate.
Tha Wookie
11-14-2005, 11:12
I feel the same way Jack does. I'd rather not sell what I write for the aid of others. If people want to buy something, let them donate.
If they bought it, it would be a "donation", to White Blaze.
Most backpackers do not spend the amount of time we do on the internet.
As the system is now, they can do what you say. But obviously there are funding challenges to be met.
They wouldn't have to pay for a computer, a web provider, or the jading experience of sitting in fornt of a computer to learn about backpacking in nature.
I respect what you and Jack say, but I just think the great info you guys and many others provide only hit a very small percent of the people out there.
I talk to many backpackers all the time, and very few have ever heard of whiteblaze.
But if you want to save it for the net folks, I understand.
LIhikers
11-17-2005, 09:00
An e-mail list I'm on about another subject had a similar idea. To pick out the best posts, compile them by topic and make them available for sale to help support the costs of operating the server. As it turns out, the legality of the thing seems to be that each poster "owns" the copyright for their own posts and must give permission for their posts to be distributed. That is unless each poster agrees before hand to a policy that their posts become the property of the owner of the website. I imagine the same thing would apply here. In the end, on the other list, the writtings of one well respected member, who gave permission, were compiled and sold on a CD.
Tha Wookie
11-17-2005, 10:35
An e-mail list I'm on about another subject had a similar idea. To pick out the best posts, compile them by topic and make them available for sale to help support the costs of operating the server. As it turns out, the legality of the thing seems to be that each poster "owns" the copyright for their own posts and must give permission for their posts to be distributed. That is unless each poster agrees before hand to a policy that their posts become the property of the owner of the website. I imagine the same thing would apply here. In the end, on the other list, the writtings of one well respected member, who gave permission, were compiled and sold on a CD.
Yes, certainly copyrights should always be honored. If Chris and Jack don't want to do it, I'm sure other authors might be willing.
I see nothing wrong with an author saying no. It's their right and theirs only.
But it would be nice for Whiteblaze to publish such a volume, to help meet costs. Thankfully, there are plenty other capable authors. Warren Doyle, for instance, could provide insights on the AT that few could.
Just so everyone is clear about it, I'm more than happy to give away, free of charge, what I write. I just don't want people to have to pay to get it. However, I suppose that if it was freely available here and there was an option to buy a printed copy, that would be ok. Sort of like the Companion.
Tha Wookie
11-17-2005, 13:13
Just so everyone is clear about it, I'm more than happy to give away, free of charge, what I write. I just don't want people to have to pay to get it. However, I suppose that if it was freely available here and there was an option to buy a printed copy, that would be ok. Sort of like the Companion.
That's exactly what I'm saying. The point is to do two things: get the writing our there for people who don't get on-line, raise money for WB operations.
I never imagined anything would be "pulled" just because it's in print.
But print costs money (like the website does). So there would be a charge, with a little royalty to WB to keep the FREE versions going, and the increasing bandwidth needs met. Think newman/redford.
Do you think this site would have happened without Bryson's book? Or be as popular?
Time to think ahead!
Also, I am writing a book about my west coast hike. Does this mean I pull all my completely free journals from my site? Of course not! But I know damn well that most people in thos site do not sit down and read trailjournals because reading a computer screen is what most people try to get away from after work.
I have a mission to inspire the designation and protection of trails and scenic lands. I will not restrict myself to do this to people who may say it's "selling out" to provide a hardcopy of the adventure. I will use every tool possible to reach as many people as possible. I suggest WB do the same for its goals and mission.
Gray Blazer
11-17-2005, 13:20
Wook, this is a good idea. Whiteblaze can have the rights to all my posts (and if I ever say anything important that could actually be used, they can have the rights to that, also). As far as my posted photos, they can use them, but, I want to be able to use them, too.
Shutterbug
11-17-2005, 13:45
What value do you place on AT Troll's time? In my job (lawyer), I am often asked to evaluate business opportunities. I often see people making the same mistake you have made -- they don't consider the value of the time consumed in the venture.
You have proposed an idea that might yield a positive cash flow if AT Troll's time isn't worth anything. That isn't a valid assumption. When one considers the fair value of the time used to edit, copy, inventory, package, mail and deal with customer issues the venture would be very unlikely to yield a profit. Throw on top of that the accounting, sales tax and income tax issues and AT Troll is better off paying the cost of the web site out of his pocket.
Tha Wookie
11-17-2005, 16:06
What value do you place on AT Troll's time? In my job (lawyer), I am often asked to evaluate business opportunities. I often see people making the same mistake you have made -- they don't consider the value of the time consumed in the venture.
You have proposed an idea that might yield a positive cash flow if AT Troll's time isn't worth anything. That isn't a valid assumption. When one considers the fair value of the time used to edit, copy, inventory, package, mail and deal with customer issues the venture would be very unlikely to yield a profit. Throw on top of that the accounting, sales tax and income tax issues and AT Troll is better off paying the cost of the web site out of his pocket.
Well, he maybe he could get a benovent lawyer to sponsor printing.
I've already offered to do the editing.
We're talking Kinkos here
I wonder how Yogi does it.....
sales tax? c'mon!
This is small time, interstate e-traffic.
But thanks for free legal advice
I never imagined anything would be "pulled" just because it's in print.
That was what I was worried about. Yogi put up a bunch of the info in the spring of 03 and I used it on my thruhike. When she wrote her book, she pulled the info from the journal site. While I certainly understand it, I didn't want that to happen in this case. I'm all for it now.
Note that Yogi, I think, ends up printing up small batches of the books. Perhaps even one at a time. Very small scale operation that takes some time and capital.
Without getting into the legal part of it...an easy way to print books for a limited audience would be a "print on demand" service such as cafe press.
A ~150 page book, for example. would be about $10 base price, add a $5 profit for $15 total per person.
The advantage is that you do not have to keep stock on hand and the end user place the order through a built in ordering system. Very little overhead for the designer/author/whatever.
The book may be more expensive initially, but in time saved it is (in my opnion) worth it. Again, esp for such a limited market.
Just an idea. Again, though. I know NADA of the legal issues.
An example for a White Blaze user: http://snipurl.com/k087
Rain Man
11-17-2005, 17:20
What value do you place on AT Troll's time? In my job (lawyer), I am often asked to evaluate business opportunities. I often see people making the same mistake you have made -- they don't consider the value of the time consumed in the venture.
Amen and AMEN! My experience is the same.
Rain:sunMan
.
Well I hate to burst anyone bubble. But,
1. I don’t have to time to do anything like this. I don’t think Rock does either.
2. We can not event get people to order shirts to help raise money how are we going to get people to buy this pamphlet to help raise money.
As of right now we are all set for money for a long time as long as our prices do not go up. I talked to our server this week and they have agreed to raise our bandwidth to 200gig at not charge. They will take a look at it at the beginning of the year and see how it looks. But the worst case would be that they will charge $5 more for the extra bandwidth.
You are more then welcome to keep discussing this if you all want to. I am not trying to stop the posting of this thread. I was just simply making a statement and passing along some info at the same time.
There is always the possibility that some day we will need more money to help pay for our own server. So we still need to keep that in mind.
MedicineMan
11-18-2005, 05:41
Seems like that is where we are headed.......so why not post the costs of a WB server and then do the 'Miss Janet' and get it done???
Seems like that is where we are headed.......so why not post the costs of a WB server and then do the 'Miss Janet' and get it done???
There is more to it then just buying a server. I should rephrase that. I should have said before we rent our own server. Here are some facts about servers.
1. First you can not just buy a server and run it free after you have bought one. If you buy one then you need someplace to park it. This means you have to put it on a rack with other servers. I have checked into this. This is just a pricy if not more then renting your own server. Don’t ask me why. Another thing is you need to make sure that the place where you store it can handle the load you desire.
2. Renting our own server is not cheap by all means. A very good server would be about $300 a month. So we are looking at $3,600 a year. I would not go with any other company then the company that we are using now. For those that have been on WhiteBlaze from the start know what server issues we us to have and it crashing all the time. Some of that was due to our growth and some was due to lack of server support. So now that we have good support and an excellent company I am very reluctant to switch companies. There is another package for a server that is $100 cheaper I have not looked into yet though and I will look into that when and if we need to. I know a lot of you have wrote and sent me links to the server company’s that you us and have said they are very good in support. I believe you all. They are probably excellent for what you are all using them for. But when it comes down to it. You are not getting the message traffic that WhiteBlaze is getting. You most likely are not using a user data base using MYSQL. There are a couple other programs that get used that most other people that have their own web pages do not use also.
If we need to do this and spend the money I have though of some ideas to help defer the cost of the monthly fees. Of course I would need to talk this over with SGT Rock. We could rent server space to our members for a minimal fee for there own personal web pages as long as they were not running forums or using MQSQL.
MedicineMan,
I would love to do this right now. But right now we have not problem with money with what we have for donations in the bank as long, as we do not go over 200gig a month now. As I posted in the previous post, the worst it might go up is $5 a month in January if we keep it under 200gig. If we can do that then we have enough money to pay for the server for well over one year and more. But I also have some sticks in the fire right now on some thing I am working on and I have talked to SGT Rock about this. This project would increase our users and our traffic on the web site. The down side to this is that it would increase our bandwidth drastically in the future.
Tha Wookie
11-18-2005, 19:54
Well I hate to burst anyone bubble. But,
1. I don’t have to time to do anything like this. I don’t think Rock does either.
2. We can not event get people to order shirts to help raise money how are we going to get people to buy this pamphlet to help raise money.
As of right now we are all set for money for a long time as long as our prices do not go up. I talked to our server this week and they have agreed to raise our bandwidth to 200gig at not charge. They will take a look at it at the beginning of the year and see how it looks. But the worst case would be that they will charge $5 more for the extra bandwidth.
You are more then welcome to keep discussing this if you all want to. I am not trying to stop the posting of this thread. I was just simply making a statement and passing along some info at the same time.
There is always the possibility that some day we will need more money to help pay for our own server. So we still need to keep that in mind.
Just planting a seed.
I know what you mean about t-shirts. I have a couple drawers full of Trekking for Children T-shirts. They sound like good ideas, but really, who needs another t-shirt?
I'd rather have a book about hiking the AT personally
But I'm not waiting until they sell out before I find other means.
Just planting a seed.
I know what you mean about t-shirts. I have a couple drawers full of Trekking for Children T-shirts. They sound like good ideas, but really, who needs another t-shirt?
I'd rather have a book about hiking the AT personally
But I'm not waiting until they sell out before I find other means.
I knew you were just planting a seed and I apreciate it. I am open to any ideas. Like I said, don't let my comment stop this process. Thank You.
MedicineMan
11-19-2005, 02:13
the AT database that was on WB and then was yanked.....that is something that i will pay for and gladly.....if/when there is an AT database on WB, could there be a way to download it after clicking on a PayPal button?
OK so i got the AT database that was here (thanks to a friend) and its now in my PDA....awesome to have that much info in the palm of the hand....
the AT database that was on WB and then was yanked.....that is something that i will pay for and gladly.....if/when there is an AT database on WB, could there be a way to download it after clicking on a PayPal button?
OK so i got the AT database that was here (thanks to a friend) and its now in my PDA....awesome to have that much info in the palm of the hand....
Yes it could be fixed so that a person could pick a donate button and then have access to the database. This is a very good idea and one to think about. I would have to talk to SGT Rock about this. Here are a couple things to think about on this.
1. The person who created the database would have to agree to let us set it up that way. Their intent was to share it freely.
2. If the person did agree to this and if we did do it we would need this person or a committed team to keep this database update every year like they do the ALDHA Companion.
3. Would this detour users from using WhiteBlaze after we vowed to keep the site free for the sharing of information and not charge for anything. We stated that we would remain non-profit. Which we have to this date. If we created something like you mentioned that we would not be sharing information freely anymore. We would now be charging to get information.
Here is my opinion on this as if I were not a webmaster:
I would be a little upset about this being done after WhiteBlaze said it would remain non-profit and are now thinking of charging to get information. I would probably keep using the web site but would be upset.
That would be my take on it if I were not the webmaster. But I can see where it would help bring in funds to help with cost that may be need in the future.
MedicineMan
11-19-2005, 05:11
the information is free, right here at the site, for anyone to read on-line,,,,but to download the file a donation is made to keep WB up running and free......
Like I said I got the AT database after it was pulled.....i love having it in my PDA with me everywhere i go.....it would be worth money to me to be able to download it, especially if i could taylor a bit what i download.
I dont think this violates the WB creed unless we/you/rock restricted the database completely.
SGT Rock
11-19-2005, 09:44
Here is a thought with that, in the case of the database, I think that if there is a charge for download, lets say $5. $4 of it should go to the ATC, and $1 could go for the site. We would just need to track about how many times it is downloaded and then make a contribution to the ATC at the end of the year in the name of "Members of the WhiteBlaze Community". Doesn't that sound equally fair to the ATC for the Databook info and the great trail that it goes with and still gives us just a little to support the bandwidth used?
MedicineMan
11-19-2005, 22:42
It gets better and better. Surely with the growth of WB the ATC would love the idea, especially at the end of the year when the checks come.....but in the end i wonder how many downloads there would be????
SGT Rock
11-19-2005, 23:16
Probably not many. But the Databook costs something like $5. So they would get about the same amount of money without the printing costs and all the other things that go along with maintaing a stock. So in the end, it would still be worth it to them.
MedicineMan
11-19-2005, 23:23
and i'm thinking that the newer and newer hikers will embrace packable tech and surely the Nano will eventually be capable of containing this database, you think?
SGT Rock
11-19-2005, 23:41
I think that at least a PDA will be able to carry it. Possibly other applications.
MedicineMan
11-19-2005, 23:49
vehement yes....already in mine but I'm using PDF Reader for Pocket PC and I dont think I can edit it??? would be nice to add my own notes. But it is very nice to have it even here at work.
Ultimately I hope to redownload it after checking off boxes of what the download is to include and PayPalling some money :)
vehement yes....already in mine but I'm using PDF Reader for Pocket PC and I dont think I can edit it??? would be nice to add my own notes. But it is very nice to have it even here at work.
Ultimately I hope to redownload it after checking off boxes of what the download is to include and PayPalling some money :)
I have software (and I'm sure there are many out there that convert pdf to word doc or txt files. then you can eddit uhhh er edit or update as needed.
We have it in word format now. We are the ones that converted it to PDF format. So there would be no need to convert it if we release it in word format.
I don't know of any way to track how many times it got downloaded. The only way that I know how to do what we want it to set up a separate area and have users that wish to donate for the database to have access to it for a donation and then we could set it up like a yearly thing. This way when it gets update they will need to renew there donations. We could set it to expire every 365 days.
Another issue is the donation to ATC, we would also have to send some of it to ALDHA because I believe some of the information came from them also. I don’t know if I agree with only $1 going to the site and $4 going to the ATC. I think we should get more then $1. But that would be something that we would have to talk more about later if we were ever to do this.
MedicineMan
11-20-2005, 01:07
and thanks bogey, didnt know it could be edited...i will search for something that can convert the pdg to word and then back to pdf again....maybe something on the home pc already that can do this?
and I agree with you Attroll about the $1....
We have it in word format now. We are the ones that converted it to PDF format. So there would be no need to convert it if we release it in word format.
> oops! UHHHH I knew that! yeah, that's right. I knew it all along.:o
I don't know of any way to track how many times it got downloaded. The only way that I know how to do what we want it to set up a separate area and have users that wish to donate for the database to have access to it for a donation and then we could set it up like a yearly thing. This way when it gets update they will need to renew there donations. We could set it to expire every 365 days.
when you get a paypal contribution, you email the "donor" the password. It should be understood that in you want to charge for annual updates, or solicit donations for the updates, you change the password at the start of the season.
Another issue is the donation to ATC, we would also have to send some of it to ALDHA because I believe some of the information came from them also. I don’t know if I agree with only $1 going to the site and $4 going to the ATC. I think we should get more then $1. But that would be something that we would have to talk more about later if we were ever to do this.
Since it's a labor of love for all or most who put it together, how'z about an even split?
Just Jeff
11-20-2005, 11:20
Need a way to give unique passwords after the contributions - if you see someone with 25 downloads from 24 unique IPs, you'll know whose password to change.
SGT Rock
11-20-2005, 11:24
Well we could implement the higher level membership thing where if you contribute, you get stuff like personalized Avatars, edit buttons, more PMs, and access to the file. This way a contributing member could download it again later if they loose the file without having to pay (good for hard drive failure issues) and we could track how much the WhiteBlaze membership donation would be by the number of contributing members.
I like Troll's idea of member webpages. :) I would pay for that!
And the membership level thing is good too.
Johnny Swank
10-23-2006, 18:43
I've started a small publishing company to put my book out on the Mississippi River trip and have the bugs sorted out on short run publishing and the like. Give me a holler if there is any traction on this project - I'd like to help.