PDA

View Full Version : Minority Hikers?



SGT Rock
01-20-2003, 15:06
OK, the White is Right thread was probably in bad taste. But it had potential for an incitefull discussion (I hope).

It does bring up a point that many have noticed: most of the hikers out there are Caucasians. I can count all tha African-American hikers I know on one hand, and I don't know any oriental or hispanic hikers.

Any thoughts?

(I hope this doesn't get me nuked):eek:

Ann
01-20-2003, 15:56
I am very embarrassed to say this BUT in my neck of the woods most of the hikers are middle class and Caucasian. Unfortunately this trend will probably continue due where contribution dollars and efforts are placed. The numbers of hikers have increased dramatically and the camping regulations have been tightened due to impact. The camping rules are very restrictive and the link the usfs provides only gives a general overview...the ACTUAL rules are quite lengthy. AMC contribution dollars goes primarily into the AMC hut system and base hotel expansions/operations under the veil of "education". I am not sure on this, but per trail dollar, the Whites, are perhaps the richest area and have the fewest camping options of the entire AT corridor. I got to the point this past year that any dollars that were contributed from this household, I INSISTED go specifically to trail maintenance. I will also add that membership in this organization was made without my full knowledge, I would have gone down fighting on that one. (As for insisting that dollars be spent towards trail maintenance, I am probably living in Polly-Anna land because donating money to this organization is most likely ONLY going towards trail maintenance that HEAD towards huts.) Unfortunately they do NOT have a contribution fund that could be funneled towards backcountry sites and I do not think this will be something that is done in the future. Presently it costs a family of four $240 to stay one night at a hut. It costs a family of four $32 to stay at an AMC campsite. They have a corner on the best site/scenic site market. I would say that puts a squeeze on many families. The campsites are in overflow many times and there is NO present interest in the organization to address that problem. There are campsites available in other locations but tend NOT to be in close proximity to the nice scenic locations and water than areas of AMC huts/campsites...that is simply NOT fair. There is also a parking fee in effect for all of the White Mountain National Forest area. In my opinion, all these factors contribute to excluding many groups of people.

On a lighter note I DO have a friend who is hispanic, and he just started winter hiking this year. He thinks he's unusual. (And that those are his OWN words.)

sli74
01-20-2003, 17:28
I am Indian (from India not Native American) and I VERY RARELY see others of my ethnicity on the trails. In all the years I've been hiking I've seen 3 other Indian people, a couple in NH and a man on Mansfield in VT. My family thinks I am crazy and don't really understand the hiking thing but I think it is mostly because this sort of this isn't part of the norm for our culture. Being an Indian woman makes me even that much more out of the norm in being a hiker. Also as an African American friend of mine pointed out, the majority of African Americans live in cities and rarely have family or friends who live far distances from cities and she believes this contributes to the lack of hikers from her community. Having said that, I drag MANY of my friends hiking and I am happy to say that they come from all walks of life and from different races. Anyway, enough rambling . . .

walkerat99
01-20-2003, 18:17
Ann,

Thanks so much for saying all that about the AMC, since I have felt that way for so long, in fact since I did my thru hike in 99. I wish more people would tell it like it really is up there and also wish the ATC would not give them total control as it seems to be. That is the reason I have never renewed my membership in the ATC, simply because they allow the AMC to make the rules for the White Mts. At least that is my preception and even what I was told from some of the crew that work there for the AMC. Also just as you said about not knowing the truth about the club. I hiked with some members of the AMC and they did not know what was really going on with the club until they thru-hiked. Just my 2 cents, and I expect to get blasted about this one, but I don't care, I know what I saw and experienced while hiking through the White Mts.

Sincerely,
Ed

PushingDaisies
01-20-2003, 18:26
When I was planning for my 2002 hike, one of my co-workers, who is black, told me her perspective on why most hikers are white.

The Number one reason was just because the fact that most hikers are white and that she would feel out of place and possibly threatened. She said that she would never go out into the woods where she would be far away from the nearest escape. She said that she felt that she was more likely to get harrassed because there were not as many black people that would be hiking, especially in the south. She also said that it was just plain uncomfortable for her to be so outside of her safety net, which was her community.

On the other hand, I have seen many hikers of other races on trails other the AT. It's usually a couple (white male, black female) that are hiking for only a few days, or just day hiking.

SGT Rock
01-20-2003, 18:36
Pushing Daisies,

That is interesting. I had a soldier who was African American. We were discussing hiking and such because I was doing a barracks inspection and there was all this hiking equipment in his room. He told me about how he had done a bike trip up the Blue Ridge Parkway before comming in the Army. He said he had expected all kinds of problems since he had grown up in the inner city of Detroit. But, he said it was exactly opposite of what he had expected. He said the southerners had been more polite to him than he was used to normal people (I think he ment yankees) being.

Maybe it is their perception of what it would be like rather than the reality?

Nutterbutter,

If hiking isn't normal for your family, how did you get into it in the first place? My family is how I got started over 30 years ago, and I'm trying to keep my kids interested in it now. I would be interested in hearing how that happened.

Waterbuffalo
01-20-2003, 19:52
My Wife and I were discussing this the other day. She graduated from UGA with a BA in Sociology. We figured the reason you don't see many Arican Americans on the trail, is that the city is where they for years many have felt safer (ie. away from hillbillies).

PushingDaisies
01-20-2003, 20:36
Originally posted by Waterbuffalo
My Wife and I were discussing this the other day. She graduated from UGA with a BA in Sociology. We figured the reason you don't see many Arican Americans on the trail, is that the city is where they for years many have felt safer (ie. away from hillbillies).

I agree that many people (of any race, really. Look at the kinds of questions we get when we announce this kind of trip.) feel safer in the cities.

The lady that I talked to was from Minneapolis and from Chicago (I believe) before that. I tried to take her on a camping trip but she flat out refused. She told me that she wouldn't feel safe being in a less populated area.

She said that she felt safer in the city. (Let's just say she lived in the area of Minneapolis that earned the nickname of "Murderapolis" for the city.) I tried to convince her that the woods were safe, but there was no way she was going to believe me.

smokymtnsteve
01-20-2003, 21:32
I have run into racism on the trail and by some hostels owners.. and it wasn't hostile Uncle johhny eithier!!!

I have also Once meet an african-american female on the trail ..very nice person...also i have meet several african -american males on the trail...buffalo soldier and PACMAN...who spent two nights up top of max patch in 2000(?) real nice guy...heavy pack for a small dude...spent one night along with him and group on Max patch he liked it so much that he stayed on Max patch for a second day...saw he again in hot springs as I stayed at elmers three days that year!


I have also meet oriental hikers...mostly folks of japanese background...several...hiking is a big sport in japan according to my friend hiromitchi...who I spent some time with in 2001 in the Roan mtn area..he was an exchange student staying with my Aunt sharon in newland NC...he loved to hike and sent me a pic of him on MT Fuji..

during my year of volunteering (1999)
for the NPS great smokey mtns visitor center cherokee, Oconaluftee...I worked on the info desk...I would not see many african american visitors...however a good many oriental again mainly japanese...and I would see some folks from India ,,a good few....


but why....several reasons

money...jobs with vacation benefits

traveling problems until the 60's and even into the 70's african american people were not allowed overnight lodging or access to restaurants...coming up US441 from atlanta One has to pass thru RABUN county ga...known to not be a good place for a black person to be ,,,there is STILL a lot of racism in that area...

not part of thier family's culture..the GSM park honors the anglo settler...even though over near Hazel creek thier is a grave of a Black man that you can find and it is marked as such...but this mtn area has never had a large black population...the folks living in the mtn area generally supported the union in the civil war...no large plantations so no large slave owners...so the african -american population was not here..and after the civil war and 'freedom ' it was still extermely hard for african americans to travel...in the south.. if you were black in this time period you just couldn't stay in "regular " hotels... there was even a system of 'black guest houses' in small southern towns there were guest houses or hotels that were run by the black community where a black family traveling could stay ..but you just couldn't stay where ever you wanted it was very limited... US441 out of Atlanta was a small 2 lane road even into the late 70's ..what is now a 2and one half hour drive now would take all day back in the 60's...part of the road through the already mentioned Rabun county is still 2-lane and there are still places where I'm sure that an African -american would be made to feel unwelcome...why there are still place in the area where a Jewish person would be unwelcome...even though I meet a Israeli hiker outside of Watuga lake/hampton TN ..on the way to Damascus...VA i guess I should add...

Near woody gap in GA there is a store that is REBEL something or other ...I stopped there one time just to check it out and I was uncomfortable there..I'm sure a african american would have felt
Extremely uncomfortable...

MedicineMan
01-21-2003, 01:05
personally I think the trail should be devoid of any racists thoughts. I enjoyed many years in a Scout Troop in rural East Tennessee that was a mix of caucasians, blacks, and orientals. We were all taught by word and example that in Scouting there was no color...that Jesus loves us all. That's the attitude I want to model on the trail and actually love to meet hikers from other lands who can tell me what the trails are like 'over there'. The Indian woman 'Nutter-butter' I think, sets a good example by getting her friends out and into the woods. You never know who may come to your aid but when aid comes does will it matter what color hand is reaching down to you?

PushingDaisies
01-21-2003, 02:21
Ok people, I gotta stop this right here and now. Many people have refered to people from the asian countries as "orientals".

"Oriental" refers to a type of food. "Asian" refers to region of origin or race.

Thank you. End of rant.

stevec
01-21-2003, 03:21
To be completely technical and totally techical and <cough> <gag> politically correct.

It should be Asian food as well. Oriental would refer to the ethnicity of the culture from which the food came.

Edit: Well actually I edited this to make sure I did'nt come off as the political correctness police because thats about as far from the truth as anything can possibly be. The edit got lost in some sort of net glitch and its too late to retype all of it.

smokymtnsteve
01-21-2003, 08:24
Oriental or Asian"??

heromitchi called himself an oriental...he lives in japan and his father is a shinto priest...In my post and the otheres which I read here I don't pick up any derogatory message in any anyones' use of the term oriental...

black , african-american( a term that I don't particualrly like)
colored, and many other terms been used in this country in the past...I think that the spIrit that someone has toward the person is more important than the "accepted' lingo of the day... labels change constantly always have always will...my post certainly was not against anyone...why my own mother is jewish..makes me a JEW boy myself.... used to call us hebrews among other things!

Grimace
01-21-2003, 10:37
Most minorities in the US have come from hard times. Think about slavery, destitute farming communities in Southeast Asia, poverty in Latin America, etc. I think many who hail from these groups strive to be successful in our capitalist economy. Therefore, they congregate in cities, work their asses off. Furthermore, in a lot of cases, they have come from the woods or an outside lifestyle. Why would someone trying to succeed or change their lives go back to the woods?

sli74
01-21-2003, 13:16
My family does think I am crazy because hiking doesn't fit with anything they have ever understood but they have begun to accept that somehow it has become an essential part of me.

I hiked for the first time when I was 18 with my boyfriend at the time. He was from Maine and had hiked most of his life. My first trip out into the woods was climbing Tumbledown Mountain in Maine and it was a disaster, he really overestimated my abilities. Because I was a petite 107 pound girl he thought I would just about fly up the Mountain but with starting at 4:30 pm on a late August day and carrying no flashlight and no water, we were already in trouble. He insisted we'd get up there and back in 2 hours and didn't need anything. He had hiked the same trail with his guy friends when they were 16. Needless to say, 4 hours later, the sun had mostly set and we were at the top for what should've been a beautiful sunset but the dark clouds had rolled in and we had no light source. I was parched and frightened out of my wits. Then the rain began pouring and with the thunder and lightening we slipped and fell our way back down the mountain in the dark. About a half mile from the bottom (we didn't know at the time how close we were to the end), with 2 or 3 near mishaps, a backpacker who was out for the night with his 2 year old son heard me crying and found us. He gave me water and his extra flashlight and my boyfriend and made it safely to our car at about midnight. We left the nice man his flashlight and a 20 dollar bill in his pick-up truck.

Anyway, that was my first hiking trip.
I didn't hike again for a while but eventually I began going again with the outing club from college and eventually as I learned to hike safely I grew to LOVE it.

Now I hike/backpack for a number of reasons. I like the serenity of it, it makes me feel at peace in my hectic life. I find strength in the outdoors. I find confidence and beauty within myself. In my "real" life I find so much meanness and attitude, so much stress and when I am out there I feel calm. I go now because somewhere between Tumbledown Mountain and now I found a part of the wilderness within me and it brings me real joy. I know that long after, people and things have walked/left from my life, I will have the woods.

Anyway, sorry I rambled for so long but you asked . . . :)

Ann
01-21-2003, 13:29
Really nice post and good to see you over on this board!!!!

Trail Dog
01-21-2003, 14:52
As a city boy born and living in New York City i dont know very many outdoors people, and far fewer hikers. Asides from my old boyscout troop and the few others in my National Guard unit who didnt join for the college money i only know ONE person who likes to hike.

Its got to be a city thing and if it wasn't for my father getting the family into the woods once or twice a year when i was a kid i'd never be out there myself.

Rob

Chickenfeet
01-21-2003, 16:19
I teach in a public city high school. Over the past year I've been explaining to my students what a thru-hike is and that I plan to do one this year. With 2 exceptions out of probably 200 students, the reaction from these kids is this: "WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER WANT TO DO *THAT*?" Mountains, trails, forests, and nature in general is a foreign and disagreeable world to city kids of any race. A group of students doing a work study program last summer all opted to clean bathrooms over picking up litter on trails just outside the city. My students all truly think I'm completely nuts for attempting a thru-hike. And many of them really believe I'm going to die out there, no matter what I say.

So, the point is, I agree with those who are saying that the absence of minorities on the trail is mostly related to minorities being concentrated in cities.

Blue Jay
01-21-2003, 19:00
Just read the responses to the thread on the proposed 30 day visa. If this is passed foreign thruhikers will be eliminated. Did hikers respond by opposing this ban, NO they supported it completely. There is a very obvious reason there are few nonwhites on the Trail, they are clearly not wanted. Oh, yes there is all kinds of politically correct talk, but have you ever been in a shelter when a nonwhite walks in. All the good old boys from the north and the south shut right up.

Lone Wolf
01-21-2003, 19:15
Bull****! Were you stoned on 9/11 or something? We lost 3000 people in an instant. Time to regulate strictly who comes into this country. Tough **** if foreigners can't come here for six months to play. All of the foreigners I've ever met hiking were from Europe, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand. All white. Got nothing to do with race. By the way Blue Jay have you served in the armed forces?

sli74
01-21-2003, 19:16
Thanks Ann,

I thought it was you on this board also but I wasn't sure. :)

Trail Yeti
01-21-2003, 20:22
I agree w/Lone Wolf that you are full of **** BJ...
There was a black thru-hiker last year and he was one of the funniest, coolest hikers there was. Great guy, and no one "shut up" when he walked into the shelter.

Bandana Man
01-21-2003, 20:29
On my 2001 section hike, I met a thru-hiker named Trail Dancer. He was the only minority I saw during my 2 weeks on the trail from Amicalola to Rock Gap. Hope he made it all the way to the Big K! ATC's list of 2001 thruhikers didn't list his trail name and I never learned his real name. Anyone else meet Trail Dancer in 2001 or know if he finished?

Lugnut
01-21-2003, 21:11
Back in my Army days we had a saying that there were no white, black, red, or yellow GI's. Everyone was green(uniforms). Maybe it should be something like that for hikers. You got a backpack and smell bad then we must be on the same team! I couldn't care less what ethnic group some one is from, what their profession is, what their religious or political beliefs are, how much their gear cost, etc. I see enough of that everyplace else and I don't miss it in the woods.

smokymtnsteve
02-07-2003, 10:52
I think we have come up with some of the reasons we don't see many minority hikers...

Blue Jay
02-07-2003, 11:45
We certainly have. Oh, Lone Wolf, I just saw your post from 1/21. Yes, I served in the Armed Forces, back when Orientals instead of Arabs were hated. It taught me a lot. The innocent on both sides die, the guilty live on. The Thu/Key (spelled wrong) government that killed thousands was moved at taxpayers expence and still live in luxury in California. Ever wonder why Cadafi, Castro, Kulmani, Ho Chi Ming, Bin Laudin, or any of the others including Sadam are never killed? Think about it.

Haiku
02-07-2003, 12:05
Just a quick note to jump in on the "Oriental" vs. "Asian" thing - it really depends on where you're from. SMS, your Japanese friend may well have learned English from a British source, where the term "Oriental" means someone from the Far East, and the term "Asian" means someone from the Middle East through India and Pakistan.
I also don't like the term "African-American" because I don't go around calling myself "Irish-German-American." Maybe people with dark skin are from Haiti or elsewhere, and they certainly aren't "African-American." Likewise, many people from Egypt or Morocco don't have especially dark skin and wouldn't immediately be classified as "African-American" even if they were.
Maybe I'm living in a dream world, but why classify people at all? People are people, no matter where they came from. That'll be the day all wars stop because no one hates anyone else any more, I guess.

Haiku.

Lone Wolf
02-07-2003, 12:23
John McCain calls Vietnamese gooks. While in Okinawa locals were referred to as gooners.

Redbeard
02-07-2003, 13:06
Having thusfar avoided the thread, this Scandinavian American will now deign to put forth his views. (nice and flowery, huh?)
I kind of doubt if Akira Kurusawa ever called anyone a "Gooner" but who know's. (by the way A.K.'s movie "Redbeard" is great.)
Sli74- I work at a state park in northern Illinois, we have a great many Indian hikers come through, They're often amused when I direct them past the wooden Indian carving. Language is a funny business. As far as rascism on the trail? I only spent two months out their last year, I have never met a better group of people. Of course Homo Sapiens will act like angry monkeys anywhere, if given the chance, but things are far more tense in the Chicago suburbs than in the southern AT.

smokymtnsteve
02-07-2003, 15:31
Excellent point Haiku...and good in sight..heromitchi's english was more formal and certainly not his first language and he strugled to communicate in english but hey my japanese ..ain't so good neither as my english lacks also...but I kin shore talk some hillbilly..plum talk upa storm!

i certainly did not use the term oriental in derogatory manner, I like heromitchi...but the shop down in Asheville that we visited sold Asian goods ...they had the Temple bowls...that are sacred to hero and they were on display so folks could play them and then buy'em....well hero said they were for funeral music and very scared and not displayed...kind of like if a shop was selling some catholic Mass sacrementals and letting folks just treat it any ole kinda way...or if your jewish maybe using the kiddish cup for some southern iced tea ....

cultural sensitivity what an undertaking!

Jack Tarlin
02-07-2003, 18:31
This thread is getting a little heated, folks. A few comments are in order:

First, to Lone Wolf. While Senator McCain may have used this term 30-odd years ago inreference to his enemies and captors, I rather doubt that he uses the term today, and to imply or baldly state that he still does imputes a certain racisim to the man that I personally don't think exists; in that the Senator and his wife have an adopted daughter originally from Bangladesh, I rather doubt he's got an ingrained problem with folks of Asian descent; to state that he still uses derogatory terms to speak about Vietnamese or any other minority is to denigrate and villify a man I happen to admire very much. Wolf, I suggest you have a look at his two excellent autobiographies if you you really want to get to know the man; there are certainly reasons to disagree or dislike Senator John McCain, but racism is not one of them.

As to why there are so few non-white hikers, I think there are many reasons, mainly to do with economics and geography.

Economically, backpacking, especially long-distance backpacking, is practiced primarily by middle, or upper middle class Americans. Most members of minority groups are, at the very least, economically dis-advantaged; even if they had the inclination, most of them simply do not have the economic wherewithal to take to the woods for 6 months.

As to geography, most members of minority groups are found in urban areas, where it is likely they've had little contact with, or the opportunity to discover the joys of the backcountry. Also, many of these folks grew up in irregular families, where the opportunity to discover the woods and mountains with family members, or on family vacations, simply didn't take place. If you look at most backpackers and thru-hikers, in most cass, they have a lifelong love of, and connection with the outdoors. There are simply not that many folks in the inner cities that have this early connection.

Lastly, as to why there aren't more black thru-hikers. Geez, that's a good one. Maybe they just have more sense.

Lone Wolf
02-07-2003, 18:50
He still to this day refers to his No. Vietnamese captors as gooks.

screwysquirrel
02-07-2003, 21:28
Who's calling somebody a hillbilly?

smokymtnsteve
02-08-2003, 00:10
screwysquirrel writes

"Who's calling somebody a hillbilly?"

I'm not calling somebody a Hillbilly ..I'm refering to myself...my family been way out in the 'back of Beyond " for generations all the way from Ireland..my great uncle jack who I got to know as a child was an ole time liquor maker..I used to work on cousins
Cary and gredines ole time chicken farm when I was a child... they finnally got electirc lights at the farm,right after we got the indoor bathroom at our house...i even got a hill billy gap in my buck teeth...I'm a genuine hillbilly..why you could call me a hillbilly american....

Tenderfoot
02-08-2003, 17:17
What about women as a minority group on the trail???

Same reasons regarding safety, income, etc? or others?

DebW
02-08-2003, 19:40
Originally posted by Tenderfoot
What about women as a minority group on the trail???

Same reasons regarding safety, income, etc? or others?

A few comments on this one. Some of the posts on this board seem designed to make women feel like a minority, even here. And there are many things on the trail itself to make women uncomfortable - just read a shelter register and you see a lot of weird stuff written by sex-starved guys. Women who want to hike have to get past this kind of stuff without letting it detract from their enjoyment of the trail. There are probably some cultural reasons that more women don't hike. Being physically strong and self-reliant are not traditionally valued in women. I would guess also that women are less likely to leave family and children behind to hike for periods of time. I gave up backpacking for 15 years when I had kids, though I continued to dayhike extensively during those years.

Anyone know statistics about M/F ratios on the trail?

Bad Ass Turtle
02-08-2003, 20:33
In the fieldnotes from my 2001 hike, I have 229 people mentioned by name, and that number includes both thru-hikers and section hikers. Of those, the statistics break down as follows:

97% Caucasian (from Europe and the US)
3% African-American and Asian-American

73% male
27% female

ages 17-29 -- 65% (approximately)
ages 30-50 -- 25% (approximately)
ages 51-75 -- 10% (approximately)

* I say approximately on these ages, because on many people, I hazarded my best guess as to their age range.

Just a small sample of the hikers that year, of course, but I offer it for the general knowledge pool.

BAT

earplug
02-08-2003, 20:37
I met an African American hiker on top of Frosty Mountain one evening by himself already in his tarp for the night. He spoke as I walked by and I told him of the trouble on top of Frosty from time to time with the locals that drive to the trail and get drunk. I told him about Happy (member here) trying to sleep one night and having a hard time due to a group of people partying all night. He told me thanks but that he was not worried. (nice guy)
I have a neighbor that is African American and have asked him to go hiking two times and he has not showed any interest at all. We are pretty good friends.
I met an African American lady on the Len Foote Hike Inn Trail that had been hiking to the Inn and back in one day and she asked me to please hike back with her to the parking lot because she had met a man going in on this trail to Springer that called her a name as he passed her. She was very scared. She admitted she was kind of scared being off in the country like this. She was with a co-worker that was causacian.

This is the extint of seeing or talking with African American hikers after many, many miles on the AT, the DR and Benton Mackaye.

Jack Tarlin
02-08-2003, 21:36
Lone Wolf:

Will keep this brief, as this probably isn't the time or place to debate this.

I've met John McCain several times, and had the privilege of speaking with him on several occasions during the New Hampshire primary race the year 2000. I very happily voted for him, and would do so again in a heartbeat.

I thought your comment about McCain and the phrase"gooks" was unfortunate. I previously said that I've no doubt that that word was once part of his regular vocabulary. He went thru some pretty awful stuff while a captive in Hanoi. In my opinion, he was entitled to call his captors and torturers anything he damned well pleased.

My point was that I don't believe he uses this term anymore; I don't believe it's part of his vocabulary; I don't believe there's a bigoted bone in that man's body, and to imply or state that he still uses terms like this, would, in the the eyes of many folks, be considered hurtful and damaging to his reputation.

If you have contemporary recent proof that shows that I'm mistaken on this, I'll happily read it and acknowledge my error. Failing that, I think you do a dis-service to a very fine man by potentially painting him, in the minds of some, as one who uses derogatory terms to describe certain ethnic groups.

To anyone else who might well wonder why I'm pursuing this, or why this thread is continuing on a hiking site....well, sorry. John McCain is about the finest man I've ever met, I'd be absolutely delighted if he ran again as an independent next year, and I would do everything I could to help his campaign, including NOT HIKING that year if he were running. When someone I admire is
presented in an unflattering light that I think is unfair and damaging, this bothers me, so if I've gone WAY off the trail in pursuing this, sorry.

Onece again to Wolf: If I'm in error here, please provide proof and recent example of what you baldly state to be fact.

EarlyRiser
02-08-2003, 21:59
I'm a genuine hillbilly

Smokeymtnsteve,

pride of the mountain folk! im not sure if i can really be classified as a hillbilly, but our school mascott is the hillbilly, so i supose i am a hillbilly in that sense. (yes you heard me right, we are the hillbillies)

:banana so fitting with the song that just came on (jungle boogie)

Jack Tarlin
02-08-2003, 22:16
Well. Let it not be said that I can't acknowledge an error.

Lone Wolf has a valid point. A "Google" search reveals that as recently as February of 2000, Senator McCain used the term "gooks" to refer to his captors.

Repeat: his captors and torturers. And I've found no evidence that he's publicly used this phrase in several years.

In the eyes of the terminally politically correct, this is offensive and wrong, tho sorry, considering what was done to him over there, in my opinion, gives him the right to call his captors anything he wishes.

If McCain is viewed by some as racially insensitive or bigoted because of past speech or actions, well how about Democrat Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia, who has been a leding figure in his party for over four decades despite prior membership in the KKK and frequent public use of the word "******." In other words, before jumping on McCain for the occasional mis-statement, let's remember that he's hardly the only public figure to have been guilty of this, and in any case, as regards his captors, I say again he's entitled to call the people who tortured and crippled him any damned thing he wants.

Anyway, enough of this. I think we can now move on to something else....

Jack Tarlin
02-08-2003, 22:21
The asterisks in the above posts are not my own; there is evidently still a limited filter system over-seeing this site. However, I'm not there there's any question over Senator Byrd's choice of language, just as I'm equally convinced there's nothing inherently damning about McCain's.

TJ aka Teej
02-08-2003, 22:45
I'm pretty certain I've only met one Hispanic female tennis-skirt-wearing hiking-with-a-dog thru-hiker. :D
But anyhoo... the 'Whiteness' of long distance hiking is an observable phenomenon. Why is it so? It's certainly a legitimate question.
I was sitting around the Ranger's cabin at Katahdin Stream one night this fall talking with a young Japanese thruhiker who was complaining about how hard the trail in Maine was. How it had no bridges, no switchbacks, etc. He went on about how nice trails out west were compared to Maine. Maybe I should've asked about it, but when hikers start talking we usually stick to hiking as a topic!

Lugnut
02-09-2003, 01:01
I would support John McCain in any endeavor he may choose no matter what he says about anything or anyone. The term hero is tossed about so loosely it has almost lost it's meaning; the title fits only a few, and John McCain is right up front in that group. Next to Ronald Reagan (who isn't really with us anymore) he is the living American I admire the most.
P.S. Not trying to open up a can of worms with the Reagan thing; just expressing my opinion. No I won't change my mind, so save the arguments.:D

Jaybird
02-11-2003, 09:25
Okay kids....am I gonna have to seperate you two?

hehehehehe! joking!

I have a friend, that just happens to be black (or African-American if you want to be P.C.) & we go camping & backpacking @ several state parks.....but he too doesnt like the idea of hiking in the woods for long periods of time (or mileage).

He tells me its a comfort factor. (which i've seen mentioned in previous posts).

I've encountered Japanese hikers on the trail...but NO black folks.
No hispanics as of yet....but as i'm a section hiker....its gonna be about 2020 before i finish the A.T. ....theres hope yet!


seeya UP the trail!


jaybird

steve hiker
02-11-2003, 21:55
I live in south Louisiana where the population is almost 50% black. Part of the reason I go hiking and enjoy going to the Appalachian region is because it is predominantly, and usually totally white. I enjoy being among other whites now and then. Blacks enjoy opportunities to be just with their own kind as well. Nothing wrong with that.

Lone Wolf
02-11-2003, 22:17
Birds of a feather... didn't that rich white boy Thoreau coin that term? He was a pussy.

Redbeard
02-11-2003, 22:44
Glad I'm not a bird... or a cat. Diversity is way more fun.

Redbeard
02-11-2003, 22:55
PS Didn't Thoreau build his own house? Didn't he spend a night in jail rather than pay a slave tax? Granted he was only a mile from town and his mommy's cooking. And granted Maine apparently scared the crap out of him, but things were a wee bit tougher back then. He's a hero for every slacker I know :D

Lone Wolf
02-11-2003, 23:05
He was a good writer. That's all. My opinion. He didn't practice what he preached. All men built their own houses in the 1800s. Gay men weren't bashed back then. He was a wannabe.

Redbeard
02-11-2003, 23:24
Not exactly Jim Bridger or Pierre Marquette, no.(I know, wrong time line...)

rickb
02-12-2003, 11:51
"He (Thoreau)was a good writer. That's all. My opinion"

Ghandi thought he was a good writer too. Well, he didn't say that Thoreau was a good writer, exactly. He just said that he was influenced by Thoreau's essays. That's all.

Rick B.

(Who enjoys his time in the mountains in spite of the people he meets there. And who defines "his kind" to a different standard than some posters)

Jack Tarlin
02-12-2003, 16:15
If memory serves, Thoreau went briefly to jail becuse he refused to pay his taxes; his objection at the time was to the Mexican War, and not to slavery.

Redbeard
02-12-2003, 23:03
" I have paid no poll tax for six years. I was put into jail once on this acount, for one night..." Henry David Thoreau on Civil Disobedience

I have no idea what the "poll tax" was actually for, the slave idea came from some Lit teacher or another. Now that you mention it he did say something about the M.A. war, but I don't think it was in Civil D.

Don
02-13-2003, 12:41
Things I ran across while looking for something else...

From USE AND USERS OF THE APPALACHIAN TRAIL by Robert E. Manning et.al in conjunction with the Park Service and Forest Service.

Authors did a survey in year 2000 of over 2000 users of the trail randomly selected from various points along the entire length of the trail.

They found among general (non -Thru hikers) that 96.5% of users were white, 1.6% African American, 1.2% Asian American, 0.5% American Indian or Native Alaskan...

For thru-hikers, 96.8% were white, 0.7% African American (2 of about 300 sampled) 1.4% were Asian American..

wordsnrhymes
06-10-2004, 17:18
As a black female who plans on thru-hiking next year, I find this whole thread a bit ridiculous; maybe if color really didn't matter to people on the trail were there'd be blacks out in larger numbers. I plan on doing my own hike; I'm not too worried about people's own hang-ups about race...and I'm certainly not out there as an "ambassador" to my culture. So when you see me walking down the trail with a big smile on my face, come on over and say hi.

Chip
06-10-2004, 19:43
I have friends of different races and have talked about hobbies, work, politics, religion and so on.When hiking is the topic I have heard a variety of reasons why hiking and camping is not their "cup of tea". Some just don't get it or want to get into this way of relaxation. Some do not feel safe in the woods. I have Caucasian friends who feel the same way, want no part of the backcountry. There are different things in life that we all do that is part of our culture and race and some that are the same.

Wordsnrhymes, if my wife and I meet you on the trail we will say hello :) . Please do not take this thread as being offensive but rather a way of folks asking questions and responding to get a better understanding not only on this topic but on all the different topics listed in the Whiteblaze forums.
Happy Trails,
Chip ;)

TJ aka Teej
06-10-2004, 19:59
As a black female who plans on thru-hiking next year

Welcome wordsnrhymes! :welcome
Don't mind us too much, it's just that the lack of diversity in the set of people who go for long backpacking trips is a reality that many notice and some wonder about.

Mountain Dew
06-11-2004, 02:19
Ann..."I am very embarrassed to say this BUT in my neck of the woods most of the hikers are middle class and Caucasian." --- people in N.H. should be ashamed of being middle class and white ? Liberal BS

pushingdaisies.... "When I was planning for my 2002 hike, one of my co-workers, who is black, told me her perspective on why most hikers are white.
The Number one reason was just because the fact that most hikers are white and that she would feel out of place and possibly threatened. She said that she would never go out into the woods where she would be far away from the nearest escape. She said that she felt that she was more likely to get harrassed because there were not as many black people that would be hiking, especially in the south. She also said that it was just plain uncomfortable for her to be so outside of her safety net, which was her community. "---Your friend should try to think before she makes a racist and ignorant remark like this again. "especially in the south"... What is that supposed to mean ? Inform her that blacks were lynched in NEW YORK CITY during the civil war and that slavery/racism went on in the north as well.

Smokeymtnsteve... " after the civil war and 'freedom ' it was still extermely hard for african americans to travel...in the south.. if you were black in this time period you just couldn't stay in "regular " hotels..." --- as opposed to in the north where they welcomed blacks into their hotels with open arms ? Laughable.

Blue Jay... ... "Oh, yes there is all kinds of politically correct talk, but have you ever been in a shelter when a nonwhite walks in. All the good old boys from the north and the south shut right up." ---I've never witnessed this either. Have you ever witnessed a street pickup basketball game where a white walks up and wants to join in ? I bet he gets a few funny looks as well. See my point ?

Asterisks are now being used on this site for the word N****R ? ( I put those there myself) hhmmm I've seen GD spelled out, pussy spelled out, and numerous other words as well. I guess that word used even in the correct "unhateful" context is a no no, but using the Lords name in vain is fine.

attroll
06-11-2004, 02:45
Asterisks are now being used on this site for the word N****R ? ( I put those there myself) hhmmm I've seen GD spelled out, pussy spelled out, and numerous other words as well. I guess that word used even in the correct "unhateful" context is a no no, but using the Lords name in vain is fine.
The reason for the word you are referring to being asterisks out is because most people that use it use it in a hateful manner. The reason for other words not being asterisks out is because they are two words for example God and Damn. They can be used separately. We can not block two word used together at this time. Your right the word pussy should be blocked as well. Where do you stop at blocking certain words? We could block a long list of them. But we are trying to block just the mean and hateful ones that get used in a mean and hateful manner. Yes we have missed some words. We are trying out best to keep this site running and are being very open minded to everything and respecting everyone as an individual. But it is hard to please everyone. I should say it is impossible to please everyone.

Pencil Pusher
06-11-2004, 04:40
If there are hardly any minorities hiking, they must be somewhere doing what they like, wondering where all the white folks are.

So why is jewish used to describe an ethnicity or race? I don't hear people calling others by their religion. Just as well, if your mom is white and your dad is black, which ethnicity are you? You are just as much one as you are the other. It's crazy if you think of all the variations, like what would happen if I moved to another country and had kids.

Jaybird
06-11-2004, 05:30
As a black female who plans on thru-hiking next year, I find this whole thread a bit ridiculous; maybe if color really didn't matter to people on the trail were there'd be blacks out in larger numbers. I plan on doing my own hike; I'm not too worried about people's own hang-ups about race...and I'm certainly not out there as an "ambassador" to my culture. So when you see me walking down the trail with a big smile on my face, come on over and say hi.



wordsnrhymes


i'm putting in 3, possibly 4 weeks on the trail next year April & May 2005...in Virginia...if i see you...i'll give you a smile & a hug! :D

Good luck with your hike!


p.s.: the only "true minority" on the trail...is a "CLEAN HIKER". hehehehe

Needles
06-11-2004, 12:45
How many of us have mentioned hiking the AT and had a friend or a family member bring up the movie "Deliverance"?
Most people who haven't spent time on, or along, the trail, and a shocking number of hikers who have spent time on the trail as well, seem to think that the Southern Appalachians are filled with evil, banjo playing, albino, rapists, and that hiking in this area is paramount to commiting suicide. Of course this is as far from the truth as you can get. Yes, I am white, but if I can stand on the side of a road, wearing a kilt and no shirt with my nipple piercings and several of my tattoos out for all of the world to see and still have no problem hitching a ride into town I would have to say that the people along the trail are a pretty accepting bunch. Of course they aren't all perfect and I am certain that racism/sexism/homophobia exist along the trail just like they do every where else, I just don't think they exist in any higher concentrations. I feel it is also a fact that the US isn't a nation with a single culture and while a confederate flag in Michigan may be nothing more than a symbol of racist oppression in North Carolina and Georgia it is often looked upon as a symbol of heritage without any racist connotations.
So I think education would be the first step in getting more minorities out on the trail, not that I know how this would be done, moving from Nashville to Seattle I have realized how hard it is just by trying to convince people that I didn't move to flee whatever form of oppression they feel I must have been subjected to by living in the South.
Of course we should also look at ourselves as hikers. Out on the trail we can get a bit "colorful" with our language, and I have no problem with that. But I have walked into shelters and found myself over hearing too many conversations about **** and queers to feel comfortable letting anyone on the trail know that I am gay. For me this isn't a big problem, I haven't run into many hikers I have felt the need to tell I am gay and I understand that some people might feel uncomfortable sleeping in a shelter with someone who is gay (not that there is any chance I would be interested in anyone who smelled that bad anyway), and since I don't have the word "HOMO" tattooed on my forehead it isn't a big issue. But if I were black, or hispanic, or asian I wouldn't be able to blend in nearly as well.
Now I am not saying that we should all become highly PC out on the trail, just the opposite, if you are a racist, or a homophobe, or you think women shouldn't be hiking cause they should be at home taking care of the kids, please speak up, and do so often and loudly. Then we can all know who you are and start ostracizing you till the point that you decide the trail isn't for you ;)

Mountain Dew
06-11-2004, 18:14
Needles... ...That was one of the most well thought out and overall solid posts I've ever seen on Whiteblaze. Post more often bro.

Attroll....Blocking the derogatory term for blacks puts us on a slippery slope. Like you said...when will the slope of blocking words end ? The word is often used is referrence to somebody else saying it and not used in a bad way. Personally, I've never seen it abused on this site, but have seen other words such as P-word, GD, etc. abused on this site. I do, however, understand the two word/ one owrd capability's of your software. I also DO NOT mean to emply that you guys aren't doing a GREAT job with Whiteblaze. Just a little constructive critcism I suppose. Keep up the good work.

Shoe Leather Express
06-18-2004, 15:44
I am very embarrassed to say this BUT in my neck of the woods most of the hikers are middle class and Caucasian.
Felling a little white guilt there, Ann?

I'm in agreement with Mountain Dew, so there's no use repeating what he already said.

SGT Rock
06-20-2004, 19:38
Just in Troll's defese about blocking that word. I was the one that added that particular word. And this thread (if I remember correctly) was started because of a certain member and series of posts. At the time it was blocked, we had a member that was going out of his way to be obnoxious and used that particular word to the point of causing us to loose members in what I thought was a totally needless show of someone's drunken ass. The easy way to prevent his posting stuff that had nothing to do with hiking while not banning someone (we had never banned anyone up to that point and were proud of it) was to finally add some word filters, because also up to that point we had not ever had a word filter installed.

There was an inital hope when Troll and I took the site that people could act mature and that we could also occasionally take some "adult" language. Neither of which proved to be true. Some people deliberatly tried to offend, and some people were offended. The philosophy here was VERY free speech, and hopefully we can keep it that way as much as possible. We continue to attempt to be as hands off now with any censorship at all because as a rule, we basically hate that worse than some of the speach we don't agree with. Personally I would rather ask someone to restrain themselves than to force it.

BeaverTrapper
06-20-2004, 21:10
We all know that hiking is an overwhelmingly white endeavor. Nobody disputes that. That question seems to be why, and everybody seems to think that there must be a reason, and that reason HAS to be the fault of the whites, who have done, or are doing something to keep the minorities out.

So far I've seen that we have priced outdoor activities out of reach of non whites, we have deprived non whites of good jobs with vacation benefits and we have a culture that makes non whites fear the woods. Anything else we evil White folks have done to keep black folks in their place - in the city? :)

It's all our fault. Couldn't possibly be the free choice of minorities. Has to be the white mans fault. Always is.

Face reality people - the only thing keeping blacks off the trails are blacks themselves. As soon as they decide to take the initiative, seek the challenge and endure the rigors of the trails, they will experience the freedom and satisfaction of the trail.

I grew up white and in the city. My parents never took me camping, we didn't have money for scouting, etc. I sought out the solace of the trail on my own. I didn't have a mentor, I didn't have an organization looking out for me - I just decided that I wanted to do it - and I did it.

As soon as backs make that same decision, we'll see them on the trail. Till that time, we'll just have to keep blaming the white man for keeping the brothers down.

Needles
06-21-2004, 02:41
Face reality people - the only thing keeping blacks off the trails are blacks themselves. As soon as they decide to take the initiative, seek the challenge and endure the rigors of the trails, they will experience the freedom and satisfaction of the trail.

I have to agree with you, to a certain extent. The only real issues that could keep minorities (by the way, this thread is about minorities on the trail, not just blacks, I will refrain from asking why you only refer to blacks in your post) are in my opinion, and since many people would consider me a member of a minority group maybe my opinion means just a little, so insignificant that they would be easily overcome by any minority wishing to spend some time in the woods.

The thing is that many minority individuals don't know and understand how minor these issues are and to make matters worse they often times assume that much more serious issues will confront them on the trail when these imagined problems just don't exist.

Humans, it would seem, are by nature defensive creatures. Personally I could care less if someone wants to call me a word that starts with an "f" is followed by an "a" and ends with a "g" (apparently this word isn't allowed on whiteblaze.net, which is ok by me, I don't make the rules here but I am happy to follow them). This is a word that is used all the time, and from what I can see most of the time it has nothing to do with homosexuality, sure, it is almost always negative in conotation, but I don't feel the need to get all defensive and ticked off every time I hear the word. Many people don't feel the same way, about this word and many others. If I were black and found myself in a small rural town along the AT and heard someone using the "N" word I don't know how I would react. Hopefully I would try and think about how the word was being used, what was the contextual meaning of the word, and decide what to do from there. Many people wouldn't take the time to think through this, including many whites.

So while I agree that whites aren't to blame for the lack of minorities on the trail (although whites in the US might bear some of the burden historicly) I think we do need to make the effort to change the current state of affairs by educating anyone that's interested in what the AT and hiking in general, is really like. I think anyone who wants to hike, and is capable of hiking (sorry, but if you are disabled and it would require changing the character of a trail to make it possible for you to use the trail, well I hate the fact that you might not be able to enjoy the view from the top of Standing Indian, but I would hate it more if they paved the trail to the top. I have told my blind brother the same thing, and he agrees.) should feel that they would be safe to do so and that other hikers would be happy to have them join us out in the woods.

So you are probably right, it isn't our fault, but I tend to think it is our responsibility.

BeaverTrapper
06-21-2004, 10:56
I mentioned blacks by name because, as a percentage of our population, they are by far the most under represented group, and thus the most glaringly absent.

I didn't mention Hispanics for two reasons. Number one is that as far as our government is concerned, when reporting crime statistics - they are considered white. If they are white when it comes to commiting crimes, then they can be white when it comes to hiking the AT as far as I'm concerned. The second reason is that I think Hispanics are very accomplished hikers. Millions of them hike right across the border illegally every year under conditions far harsher than encountered on the AT.

I disagree that it is our responsibility to recruit people into the hiking community that show no interest in it. Perhaps we can force them to hike for their own good, just as we forced school busing on little kids for their own good? If it is our responsibility to facilitate minority interest in hiking because we, as whites, are the majority - do Chinese, who own the majority of Chinese restaraunts, have a responsibility to facilitate the acquisition of white owned Chinese restaraunts in Chinatown? :D

MOWGLI
06-21-2004, 11:34
I disagree that it is our responsibility to recruit people into the hiking community that show no interest in it. Perhaps we can force them to hike for their own good, just as we forced school busing on little kids for their own good?

It may not be your responsibility, but it is in our best interests to see a broader range of ethnic groups involved in hiking for one simple reason. Trails like the AT were created at a time when the ethnic composition of our society was different than it is today. If we fail to attract a more diverse group to take interest in long distance trails (like the AT), they may cease to exist one day. Already there is tremendous development pressure up & down the AT Trail Corridor. Particularly in the Mid Atlantic. If we remain an exclusive group, at some point in the future, we'll be on the outside looking in.

From a fiscally conservative perspective it makes sense on a different level. Many minority groups are disproportionately affected by health issues that are addressed by physical activity like hiking. In the end, you & I pay the costs of obesity, heart disease, arthritis, and all the other chronic health problems that are addressed by hiking. We pay it with our tax dollars.

It will probably be extremely difficuly to attract a large number of folks from the African American community to hike in the backcountry of the Southern Appalachians. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try and get more folks (regardless of their ethnicity) involved in hiking or walking, even if it's on a Greenway along a river in the middle of Nashville, Knoxville, Chattanooga, or Huntsville. Along the way, education on issues like Leave No Trace is a vitally important component.

For those a bit more interested in this issue, here's a link to a study looking at minority recreation in Appalachicola National Forest in Florida.

http://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/viewpub.jsp?index=1369

TJ aka Teej
06-21-2004, 13:50
I disagree that it is our responsibility to recruit people into the hiking community that show no interest in it.

The lands and trails on which we hike are purchased, owned, and sustained in large part by our government. The voters elect the government, in the hope that those elected will make laws and decisions that represent the will of the people. When the time comes that "minorities" become the majority of the electorate what will become of our trails, parks, and lands if those voters have not become part of the hiking community?

hikerltwt
06-21-2004, 17:14
I had a roommate/good friend that was half Korean, half Black. I took him hiking a few times and he simply did't enjoy it. Was it because he was a minority, that he didn't enjoy hiking? I think not! It simply wasn't something he liked to do. We are still friends despite this glaring character defect of his. I am a BALD WHITE MAN who enjoys hiking. No one in my family hikes/backpacks, yet I found that it is my niche to distance hike. I hike because I like to hike, not because of my race. Minorities hike or do not hike for the same reason. I thru-hiked the AT last year and met several minority hikers. In fact, I hiked about two thousand of those miles with an asian woman I met at Bly Gap. I called her an Oriental Girl when we first met........gasp, gasp sigh, sigh. She found that so horrible, she hiked 2000 miles with me, now dates me and is planning on hiking the PCT in '05 with me. She wasn't concerned with how politically correct I was, she was concerned with how I treated others. We sort of deal with the politically correct/ race issue a little different than the politically correct movement would like us to. I cheerfully and lovingly refer to her as my Little China Girl, she refers to me as her Cracker Mother F***er or CMF for short! This sometimes shocks people when they first hear us. Yet, invariably, those that spend time with us and see us interact, learn that it is just OUR BRAND OF HUMOR. Gee, I guess we are so dysfunctional, Huh? This whole politically correct, fake way of dealing with one another has gone over board. For my money I'd rather a racist make his views known to me overtly, rather than be politically correct in my presence yet be racist out of my presence. I am really tired of seeing threads like this. Get over it people. Racism exists, always has, always will. "Whitey" doesn't own the market on it either, as we are so often led to believe. It is not "Whiteys" fault that minorities don't hike in the numbers representative of their percent of general population. Ever hear of diversity, it doesn't just refer to skin color right? It means different culturesand customs, perhaps that extends to recreational pursuits?
So most hikers are white, I could care less. What I do care about and what makes me love the distance hiking community so much, is the fact that the people in this community, the ones really out on the trails, not the ones sitting around, stirring up silly conflict on the web, are the kindest, most generous, compassionate and truly good people I have ever had the pleasure of associating with. And that is what is important, not the color of their skin.

ps If you all see a big bald CMF and a Little China Girl on the PCT next year, come hike with us, black, brown, white, or yellow. You just might enjoy the company!

steve hiker
06-21-2004, 18:32
I hike to get away from blacks. Where I live, in the Deep South, blacks are over 50% of the population in many areas. It's like Planet of the Apes.

So when I get in the car and head for the Appalachians, and the black population drops off drastically after Birmingham, it's like a breath of fresh air. It's a feeling of homecoming, to where my own people, white people, are. (For reasons I won't go into, I have ties that keep me from moving from Louisiana. Otherwise I''d have left this state long ago.)

I find it absurd that some white people have been so brainwashed by the "quota mentality" and the media that they think there's something wrong with there being few blacks on the trail. Gotta see a black face everywhere, right? After all, that's the picture the media is brazenly pushing, to the most offensive extreme.

Get off it, you politically-corrected types. Hike your own hike and if the blacks decide they want to suddenly pick up and go out in the mountains with a bunch of white people, they can do so. In the meantime, I'll enjoy my breaks from Planet of the Apes.

Needles
06-21-2004, 19:10
I hike to get away from blacks. Where I live, in the Deep South, blacks are over 50% of the population in many areas. It's like Planet of the Apes.

Thanks Steve, I appreciate your honesty and openess on this issue. It takes a bit of courage to speak out in a way that you know will probably be unpopular.

I do however disagree with you completely and totally, but I am thrilled that you, and all of us, still have the right to say something so totally wrong :)

BeaverTrapper
06-21-2004, 20:51
When the time comes that "minorities" become the majority of the electorate what will become of our trails, parks, and lands if those voters have not become part of the hiking community?<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
When that time comes, you'll have a more important problems to worry about than a hiking trail.


Many minority groups are disproportionately affected by health issues that are addressed by physical activity like hiking. In the end, you & I pay the costs of obesity, heart disease, arthritis, and all the other chronic health problems that are addressed by hiking. We pay it with our tax dollars.

So I gotta get minorities into hiking so I don't have to pay for their hospital bills? Gimme a break.


What the liberals just can't bring themselves to admit, is the simple fact that there are differences between the races; physical, emotional, spiritual and intellectual. Why we can't concentrate on complementing each other, rather than blindly insisting that we are all exactly alike, I'll never understand.

I can promise you one thing, friends, blacks aren't sitting around moaning about the relative lack of whites in the NBA, blaming themselves for it, and harping about the necessity to rectify the situation because they are afraid the NBA will die out. :D

Think about it.

MOWGLI
06-21-2004, 21:17
So I gotta get minorities into hiking so I don't have to pay for their hospital bills? Gimme a break.



I think you missed my point here. Obesity is a national epidemic. I talked about getting al sorts of folks "regardless of their ethnicity" involved in physical activity.



What the liberals just can't bring themselves to admit, is the simple fact that there are differences between the races; physical, emotional, spiritual and intellectual. Why we can't concentrate on complementing each other, rather than blindly insisting that we are all exactly alike, I'll never understand.

Tell us Beaver, what are the intellectual differences between the races? Y'all should be sure to let us know what your qualifications are to discuss this issue.

Just who are you referring to as a liberal? I have seen this about a half dozen times recently on this web site. If you are referring to me, I can assure you, you don't know me or my politics.

By the way, I had a good time at the Birmingham music festival this past weekend. I would only suggest one change for next year. Replace Lynyrd Skynyrd with Neil Young. he he

Little Bear

BeaverTrapper
06-21-2004, 21:28
The intellectual differences are obvious. Just look at the graduation rates in the sciences for whites, asians and blacks. But, I guess thats because whitey has kept the black man down, huh? How about the scores for the various races on the ASVAB test given by the military. There are parts of that test that don't even require the ability to read, just to look at a cube, and decide what it would look like unfolded. Whites average 20% higher on IQ tests than blacks, across the board. What is your explanation for that?

In your opinion, are there ANY differences between the races? If so - what are they? I would be interested to learn the truth from somebody who feels that they are the arbiter of such.

PS. They might feature Neil Young if anybody would bother to pay to see him. :)

minnesotasmith
06-21-2004, 22:03
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/retard.htm

Scroll down until you see the first graph.

You may also find illuminating the graphs on page 279 of the hardcover edition of "The Bell Curve" by Murray and Rothstein (1994) edition. They have essentially the same conclusions, using different and relatively impeccable sources.

weary
06-21-2004, 22:53
What the liberals just can't bring themselves to admit, is the simple fact that there are differences between the races; physical, emotional, spiritual and intellectual. Why we can't concentrate on complementing each other, rather than blindly insisting that we are all exactly alike, I'll never understand....

.

I suspect the primary differences between the races may be cultural. I suspect a bit more than a century may be too short to erase a 200-year culture of slavery. And 40 years may be too short to erase a culture that applauded the killing of little children and refused to convict their murderers in an attempt to keep blacks from voting -- or even having an equal right to a seat on a bus.

Though beavertrapper seems to lack the intellect to understand, "liberals" have been responsible for most of the improvements in our culture and society throughout history.

Weary

steve hiker
06-21-2004, 23:07
I suspect the primary differences between the races may be cultural.
I suspect differently. There are obvious physical differences between the races, and there is no reason to believe these differences do not extend to brain structure and intelligence. To quote:

"The black-white IQ gap has been studied and analyzed for more than 80 years. It has outlived sweeping attitude changes, from extreme anti-black discrimination to bias against whites, Asians and males. The billion-dollar Head Start budget has not dented it. Though IQ scores have been rising worldwide for decades (the Flynn effect) the cognitive distance between blacks and whites has remained remarkably constant. In fact, the 1 SD black-white IQ gap is as close to a fundamental sociological constant as we come."

The Old Fhart
06-21-2004, 23:17
Before you all start patting youselves on the back about how much smarter you are than other races, and use biased figures to try to suport your "uberman" superiority, look at some other information for the cause of the differences.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-inferiorIQ.htm says in part: "Which viewpoint is correct? The answer becomes obvious when you compare the lower IQ results of other discriminated minorities around the world, many of whom are of the same genetic stock.
Perhaps the most dramatic example is the Northern Irish. Even though they come from the same ethnic group, Catholics (the discriminated minority) score 15 points lower on IQ tests than Protestants." (So does belonging to one particular religion make you less intelligent or is it that you are a discriminated minority?)
U.S. Census information on the breakdown of white students who have graduated with a B.A. from college would indicate white Russians are 2 to 3 times more likely to graduate with a BA from college than most other white groups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence states: "The mean score for people of East Asian and Jewish descent is usually higher than the mean score of whites, but the extent of that difference is not precisely known. However, most studies place the median IQ of Ashkenazi Jews (who make up the overwhelming majority of American Jews) at approximately one standard deviation above the mean for other whites."

So are there differences in I.Q.-yes. But these differences are far greater within a particular group than between different groups and the causes are not genetic but overwhelmingly nurture, not nature. Don't try to use biased data to support your race bias or hatred. Doing that actually displays your lack of intelligence.

Skyline
06-21-2004, 23:38
I hike to get away from blacks. Where I live, in the Deep South, blacks are over 50% of the population in many areas. It's like Planet of the Apes.

So when I get in the car and head for the Appalachians, and the black population drops off drastically after Birmingham, it's like a breath of fresh air. It's a feeling of homecoming....

Gee Steve, you don't have to share your home, your bed, your body, your tent, or even your dinner with a black person if you don't want to. But would you really have a problem sharing a trail with one? Shelter space? A ride into town?

Is it only blacks you feel superior to? Or is it anyone "different" than you? What about Asians? Native Americans? Gay folks? Women? Hispanics? The physically challenged? Hikers with Australian accents? Any other irrelevant factors I may have overlooked?

Would serve you right to be freezing your butt off in a March blizzard at Newfound Gap and the only driver in hours brave enough to pass by on the way to Gatlinburg was a mixed race Black/Cherokee Lesbian amputee in a 4x4. If she stopped to offer you a ride, would you get in?

In over a decade around and on the A.T. (eight years of it section hiking) I've met only a few blacks. Not a single one was anything but polite. One of the nicest guys I've met of any race on the A.T. was an older black man named "Sarge" who seems to be out every year. I don't know how even you would fail to be impressed by Sarge if you gave him half a chance.

BeaverTrapper
06-22-2004, 00:14
OldPhart:

Differences within racial groups exist just as differences between racial groups exist. That is fact. Is it your underlying assumption that discrimination results in poor IQ? I believe that perhaps poor IQ results in discrimination. Of course, there is no way to scientifically explore that area in our society where political correctness stifles scientific study of certain areas.

Skyline:

Why do you automatically assume that anyone who dares mention differences between the races considers themselves superior to another group of people? That is prejudice on your part. Why do you wish anyone who broaches the subject ill will? While Steve and I may disagree with you, we haven't wished any frozen misfortune on you. That strikes me as being a bit hateful, you know.

Also, IQ was simply one area of difference between the races that was mentioned. I mentioned physical differences, emotional differences, cultural differences, etc. Why is it that the liberal always pounces upon the IQ difference, and then automatically assumes that the person daring to mention it also claims to be "superior"?

It's quite obvious that blacks posess many physically superior characteristics compared to whites. It's funny how no one disputes that blacks, as a group, are superior to whites, as a group, when it comes to certain physical abilities - thats quite OK; but the mere mention of white superiority in intellect compared to blacks, as a group brings instant howls of indignation and self loathing.

So how do you explain black dominance of the NBA, if we are all the same and there are no differences between the races? How do you explain the fact that blacks don't sit around and mope over the fact that they dominate the NBA, and they don't have discussions about how they should be responsible for bringing more whites into the NBA, in order to insure fairness and balance?

And back to the original point of this entire thread, if blacks are just as intelligent as whites, if blacks have the same emotional characteristics as whites, if blacks have the same physical characteristics as whites - then why don't they backpack?

The problem with liberals and race is a simple one. If they admit that there are ANY differences between the races - any at all; then they are forced down the slippery slope of asking themselves, just how different are other races? In what ways are they different? Since they cannot bear to explore this path, they are forced to deny even the most obvious differences between racial groups;which of course, makes them look foolish.

The result is that it's safer, and easier to simply label anyone who broaches the subject as a racist, a hater, or claim they they are claiming superiority, and ridicule them personally.

Pencil Pusher
06-22-2004, 00:28
Yeah, this thread is really going places...

Skyline
06-22-2004, 01:01
:

Skyline:

Why do you automatically assume that anyone who dares mention differences between the races considers themselves superior to another group of people?

Beaver Trapper:

When "Steve Hiker" makes statements like he has in this thread and in others, it's not a matter of pointing out "differences" between races. It's CLEARLY a preference on his part for segregation of the races, and his viewpoint that the white race is superior. Are you actually saying that you've read his rantings and don't get this?

Needles
06-22-2004, 01:12
OldPhart:The problem with liberals and race is a simple one. If they admit that there are ANY differences between the races - any at all; then they are forced down the slippery slope of asking themselves, just how different are other races? In what ways are they different? Since they cannot bear to explore this path, they are forced to deny even the most obvious differences between racial groups;which of course, makes them look foolish.

The result is that it's safer, and easier to simply label anyone who broaches the subject as a racist, a hater, or claim they they are claiming superiority, and ridicule them personally.

I have to say something about this, first of all I am not a liberal, I am a leftist, the differences between liberals and conservatives in the US are so minor that I consider them 2 sides of the same coin. I support socialized medicine, increasing taxes on everyone, but especially the wealthy, so that our governement can afford to provide a decent and equal education to everyone in the US, provide a real safety net to the underprivaledged so that no one is homeless and no one is hungry. I am in favor of greatly reducing the power corporations have over our country and daily lives by reversing the court rulings from the 20th century that gave corporations the same basic rights and freedoms that individuals have which allows individuals to hide behind corporate structures and to break laws because they know the corporation will be the one to be punished if they get caught and not them, ever seen a corporation go to jail? I also support full equality for everyone no matter what color, race, sex, or anything else they are.

I have no problem admitting there are differences between people, some of these are based on genetics and therfore race and ethnicity come into play, most however are based on culture, ie. environment, and could effect anyone no matter what their skin color is.

Are some races smarter than others? I don't think so. Do some races place more importance in different areas than others so that they might see athletic ability having greater value than mathmatical skills? Hell yes. Are schools across this country equal in their ability to effectively teach all subjects? Hell no. Environment and culture are as, if not more, important than genetics, to deny this doesn't show that any minority group is smarter or dumber than another minority group, it just shows your ignorance and lack of willingness to open your mind to all of the facts instead of only the ones that support your narrow minded beliefes.

I live in the liberal capital of the US, and I too am amazed at the idiocy I see around me, people convinced the best way to save the environment is to get everyone to give up their cars and ride bicycles. Well since this is never going to happen why are they wasting their time on bicycles when they could be putting their energy towards something that might actually make a difference. I laugh my butt off everytime I see a "No Blood for Oil" bumper sticker on the back of a Ford Excursion. I am amazed at how many people think they are doing great things for society by donating money to charities that support things like public art, or preserving wooden boats. I have nothing against art or boats, but think of what could be done if this money was going to feed the hungry and house the homeless or fund research in to treatments for cancer or AIDS. Yes it astounds me.

Of course I moved here, Seattle, from Nashville, TN, one of the most conservative cities in the US. I was also amazed at how conservatives could be convinced that stopping gay marriage was the most important issue facing our nation. Or how they could believe that safe and legal abortions could be responsible for the downfall of the United States. How is it that conservatives, most of whom areen't wealthy, can believe that huge tax cuts to the rich benefit anyone but the rich when all of the evidence says it is true. And when race relations in the country are better than they were in the 1950's by a long shot how could anyone think that, overall, school intergration hasn't been a sucsess.

I have spent time with members of just about any race you can think of, including bleeding heart hippy liberals who think that the races should all be able to live as one big happy family even though they don't personally know anyone who isn't white, and neo-nazi white supremecists (this is how they defined themselves) who thought that Blacks and Jews were pure evil and out to see white people whiped off the face of the planet. These same people never could understand why I thought it was so funny to see them talking their black friends (it would always come down to the neo-nazi saying that this one guy was different, he wasn't like all the other blacks). Amongst all of these groups of people I have found individuals who were smart, and individuals who were denser than rocks, I have found individuals I liked and others I couldn't stand (yes, some white supremecists are nice enough people) and the only thing I can see is that people really are more alike than they are different.

If you can't see this Beaver, well it doesn't make me think any less of you, but it does make me feel really sorry for you.

A-Train
06-22-2004, 01:47
Nice post Needles

steve hiker
06-22-2004, 02:00
When "Steve Hiker" makes statements like he has in this thread and in others, it's not a matter of pointing out "differences" between races. It's CLEARLY a preference on his part for segregation of the races, and his viewpoint that the white race is superior. Are you actually saying that you've read his rantings and don't get this?
Skyline -- I really don't care who is superior. I'm sure that both whites and blacks feel superior in their own ways, and that's fine.

You keep harping on my post, but I don't have anything to add. So I'll repeat it again, just to make sure you get it:

"I hike to get away from blacks. Where I live, in the Deep South, blacks are over 50% of the population in many areas. It's like Planet of the Apes.

"So when I get in the car and head for the Appalachians, and the black population drops off drastically after Birmingham, it's like a breath of fresh air. It's a feeling of homecoming, to where my own people, white people, are. (For reasons I won't go into, I have ties that keep me from moving from Louisiana. Otherwise I''d have left this state long ago.)

"I find it absurd that some white people have been so brainwashed by the 'quota mentality' and the media that they think there's something wrong with there being few blacks on the trail. Gotta see a black face everywhere, right? After all, that's the picture the media is brazenly pushing, to the most offensive extreme.

"Get off it, you politically-corrected types. Hike your own hike and if the blacks decide they want to suddenly pick up and go out in the mountains with a bunch of white people, they can do so. In the meantime, I'll enjoy my breaks from Planet of the Apes."

steve hiker
06-22-2004, 02:10
By the way Skyline, I notice you live near Shenandoah National Park in Virginia. That's a pretty white area, isn't it? What are you, some kind of racist? Better pack up quickly and move to black Atlanta, or D.C., or the Mississippi Delta, or New Orleans. After all, you have a reputation to protect.

And stay away from those white rednecks in the Appalachians. Keep going there and you'll be cast for a role in Deliverance II. :D

Or maybe, you're hanging out on the AT so much so your "inner white guy" can come out?

Pencil Pusher
06-22-2004, 02:12
Needles points out the hypocrisies of others while blindly being proud of his own. Despite his fishbowl perspective of Seattle, this is a regular city without the oppressive summer heat, which I think is one source of making people go nuts (in their own varying degrees).

Needles
06-22-2004, 02:50
Needles points out the hypocrisies of others while blindly being proud of his own. Despite his fishbowl perspective of Seattle, this is a regular city without the oppressive summer heat, which I think is one source of making people go nuts (in their own varying degrees).

I take pride in my hyporisies because they are my own, and being my own I am familier with them enough to know they are superior to everyone elses hyporisies. So my pride is far from blind.

Further more Seattle is far from a regular city, we currently have a major, elevated roadway in Seattle that is due to colapse and take down several residential buildings with it. So what is being done to fix this problem? Nothing. Why? Because taking this elevated hideously ugly roadway down would eliminate a particularly nice view of the waterfront that everyone in Seattle enjoys so much as they speed down the road at 60 miles per hour (shouldn't you be watching the road instead of enjoying the 20 seconds of view you get from this vantagepoint anyway?). Obviously a large enough percentage of the people in Seattle think that a lovely view, that goes by so fast you can't really enjoy it, from a particularly ugly stretch of highway is much more important than the impending deaths of hundreds of their fellow citizens. I won't even talk about the monorail project (it must be a good idea cause Disney likes them in their theme parks, but it won't ever happen cause the stations might block our views of things like parking garages) or the assorted coffee houses (no, they aren't ALL Starbucks) on every street corner, or the fact that so many of the roads change names every block and a half. Plus this is the only city I have found where its residents set up web sites for the sole purpose of telling the rest of the world how much this city sucks. No, Seattle isn't a regular city. It isn't all bad though, every now and then, the cloudsburn off and the smog thins out just enough that if you are standing in the right spot and squint you can catch a glimps of Mt. Rainier or Mt. Baker, both of which are amazingly beautiful sites. Of course they are both located outside of the city as well.

I will agree that it doesn't get nearly as hot and humid here as it does out East, but I enjoy heat and humidity. Don't say it doesn't get oppressively hot though, today I heard numerous people saying that it was oppressively hot, it was only in the mid 80's with 20% humidity, which to me is just starting to get comfortably warm, but apparently for Seattle that is oppressively hot.

Pencil Pusher
06-22-2004, 03:49
The issue with the viaduct is how many people would be affected if they closed it. Monorail will happen, I was one of it's supporters and even signed the petition to force the issue to be voted on by the people. Light rail happened in Denver. Of course, the lawmakers can always toss the people's vote, as they did with the sound transit monies and vehicle tabs. But none of this is exclusive to Seattle. Take into account Denver building that flop of an airport, DOA, right after they added the D concorse to Stapleton. Or the insanely priced interstate that is running under Boston (did they ever drop the Mass turnpike tolls, as was required by law?). How about the circus government of NYC, police and firefighters included?
My point exactly on the heat, it makes people wack out. Even in these 'heat waves' of 80 degrees. Hop on the bus and you see people are more easily agitated when it is hot out. Thankfully Seattle is not known for it's heat, just the rain. Aren't you going to miss out on the mountains and the sea if you move back? It only takes an hour of driving to get over the pass and into 'real' summer heat. I'd guess the gay community here to be stronger, though I've never lived in Nashville.

Sorry for being way off topic. If Seattle sucks, then Nashville blows, hence the gusty winds in Kansas and Wyoming.;)

Alligator
06-22-2004, 07:38
I hike to get away from blacks. Where I live, in the Deep South, blacks are over 50% of the population in many areas. It's like Planet of the Apes.
You must be astronaut Landon.

The Old Fhart
06-22-2004, 08:21
Originally Posted by BeaverTrapper
OldPhart:The problem with liberals and race is a simple one. If they admit that there are ANY differences between the races - any at all; then they are forced down the slippery slope of asking themselves, just how different are other races? In what ways are they different? Since they cannot bear to explore this path, they are forced to deny even the most obvious differences between racial groups;which of course, makes them look foolish.

The result is that it's safer, and easier to simply label anyone who broaches the subject as a racist, a hater, or claim they they are claiming superiority, and ridicule them personally.

I can clearly make such a statement when the people using the data try to prove they are superior to one particular race while ignoring the rest of the data that would imply (using their twisted logic) that Asian are smarter than whites making whites the less intelligent race. When I hear any of the above posters say:"Yes, I am dumber than Asians", or any other ethnic subgroup, then I'll be sure they aren't racial bigots. This topic of intelligence isn't used by them to point out differences among race or to try to explain why you don't see minotities hiking, but to prove why they are superior to one particular race while ignoring that others are superior to them using their own logic.

If you want to use "facts" to prove a point, use all of them, including the ones that don't support your point of view. Any thing else is bias or worse.

BeaverTrapper
06-22-2004, 08:43
This topic of intelligence isn't used by them to point out differences among race or to try to explain why you don't see minotities hiking, but to prove why they are superior to one particular race while ignoring that others are superior to them using their own logic.

If you want to use "facts" to prove a point, use all of them, including the ones that don't support your point of view. Any thing else is bias or worse.
Obviously you can't read, because I clearly state that there are plenty of other differences between the races, IQ being only one of them. I also clearly point out aspects in which blacks are clearly superior to whites. Up to this point, we have not discussed asians extensively, but I am happy to do so. Why is pointing out the fact that your studies only show that differences exist within the races, just as they exist between the races, 'not using all the facts"?

So, why is it OK to discuss areas where blacks are superior peformers to whites, and not OK to discuss areas where whites are superior to blacks? It's a simple question, Old Phart. Can you answer it?

SGT Rock
06-22-2004, 09:02
Look y'all, this is turning the way of some of the gun threads. We donít have a site about genomics; the topic was about the topic of minority hikers, why don't we see more of a cultural (not just racial) diversity on the trail like we do in the rest of the US.

I hardly think that discussing the superiority or inferiority of anyone would indicate this at all. I am smarter than some people on the trail and dumber than others (probably a lot of them) and I am better athletically than some while worse than others - so I think just based on my observations of hikers in general that physical ability and IQ don't meet in some secret combination to make a hiker. I hardly think that genetics plays a part in deciding if someone will become a hiker or not, more likely culture or exposure at the right time in one's life.

So if you please, if you think it is important to debate this, find someplace devoted to it and do so there or have an e-mail exchange. But get back to hiking.

screwysquirrel
06-22-2004, 09:07
Great Gods! This thread is about as relevant to hiking as the latest population count of the Manatee. Here you have your right section and then your left. If minorities want to hike the AT, who cares if they do or they don't! It's their choice.
Great quote here Sgt. Rock, my feelings exactly.
(So if you please, if you think it is important to debate this, find someplace devoted to it and do so there or have an e-mail exchange. But get back to hiking.[/QUOTE]

Lone Wolf
06-22-2004, 09:09
www.naawp.com
For you inferior feeling whites :cool:

Skyline
06-22-2004, 09:35
By the way Skyline, I notice you live near Shenandoah National Park in Virginia. That's a pretty white area, isn't it? What are you, some kind of racist?


Depends on what part of the Shenandoah Valley you're talking about. Those counties where the whites were wealthy enough to own slaves today have a lot of blacks who settled there after the Civil War. Counties like mine were never that wealthy--tho we're not as pure white as you might prefer. Compared to places I've lived before this, I think most of us get along rather well.

Shenandoah National Park gets a high percentage of its visitors from the Baltimore, Washington, and Richmond regions. All very black cities. While it is true that not that many blacks take to the trails, there is usually a representation of blacks (and many other ethnicities) at the overlooks along Skyline Drive, the picnic areas, and the restaurants/lodges.

It's not about numbers or quotas. It's about what's in your mind and heart. If you just take folks you meet one at a time, do your part to get to know them, you can usually decide in short order if you want to maintain the friendship, relationship, etc. The factors that enter into that decision, for me at least, don't have anything to do with whether a person is white, black, gay, younger, older, male, female, wealthy, indigent, educated, or not. It has everything to do with their personal words and actions.

lysdexia
06-22-2004, 09:44
"I like being in a family," Fuzzy said.

I don't know about y'all, but I hike to get away from all people. Except the slow, kinda portly ones. Them's good eatin'.

The Old Fhart
06-22-2004, 09:59
I completely agree with Skyline's post #99, it is right on target. SGT Rock is absolutely right that this line of arguement of "my race is better than yours" is idiotic and pointless.

As to Beaver Trapper's question to me: "Old Phart. Can you answer it?" I assume you're addressing me even though you can't spell my name right. To use your own words: BT, "Obviously you can't read,..." You only single out two groups and ignore the rest. Your obvious point has nothing to do with facts. If you were truely talking about minorities you wouldn't have singled out one particular group to smear. Take L. Wolf's advice and go to the site he mentioned and have a conversation with people you can agree with. I have nothing further to say on this subject.

Mountain Dew
06-23-2004, 01:59
Beaver Trapper and Pencil Pusher.... Save your words brothers. One thing I have learned on the trail is that talking politics doesn't belong on the trail. 9/10 times when politics was brought up, when I was hiking in 2003, it was by some liberal, loud mouthed, hippie loving, hyprocrite idiot. When confronted with the other side of the political spectrum they soon 1. blew up in a classic liberal factless rage 2. changed the topic 3. couldn't answer a question directly 4. wanted everybody to STOP talking politics all of a sudden.
Trying to convert the liberal, white apologist from themselves is like trying to break down a brick wall with your head. You just might do it, but in the end you end up brain dead. The same low IQ brought them to their conclusions and will , in all likelyhood, keep them forever ignorant.

Sgt. Rock... WELL SAID ! :clap I hate when the topic roars off course even though I may have been guilty of it at times.

200-year culture of slavery... --- Slavery existed for about 80 years in the U.S. and has been over for more than 140 years. The only place where slavery has gone on for more than 200 years AND STILL goes on is indeed, africa.
---------------------
Getting back on topic.....

I don't feel that race talk , like politics, has any place on the trail or in the trail community except among those that share like minded views. One thing I trully enjoyed about the trail was how many different kinds of people came together and were joined by a common bond...HIKING. Hell... me and Lone "harley" Wolf even got along at trail days. Gee thanks for nothing Baltimore Jack for introducing us. :D !!! Recently I was looking through my Backpacker mag and noticed a black female in an add near the back (about page 135 I think). No point there , but rather an observation.

TJ aka Teej
06-23-2004, 07:52
How brave of you to place your claim "The same low IQ brought them to their conclusions and will , in all likelyhood [sic], keep them forever ignorant." on top of a pile of spelling, punctuation, grammatical, and historical errors.


Beaver Trapper and Pencil Pusher.... Save your words brothers. One thing I have learned on the trail is that talking politics doesn't belong on the trail. 9/10 times when politics was brought up, when I was hiking in 2003, it was by some liberal, loud mouthed, hippie loving, hyprocrite idiot. When confronted with the other side of the political spectrum they soon 1. blew up in a classic liberal factless rage 2. changed the topic 3. couldn't answer a question directly 4. wanted everybody to STOP talking politics all of a sudden.
Trying to convert the liberal, white apologist from themselves is like trying to break down a brick wall with your head. You just might do it, but in the end you end up brain dead. The same low IQ brought them to their conclusions and will , in all likelyhood, keep them forever ignorant.

Sgt. Rock... WELL SAID ! :clap I hate when the topic roars off course even though I may have been guilty of it at times.

200-year culture of slavery... --- Slavery existed for about 80 years in the U.S. and has been over for more than 140 years. The only place where slavery has gone on for more than 200 years AND STILL goes on is indeed, africa.
---------------------
Getting back on topic.....

I don't feel that race talk , like politics, has any place on the trail or in the trail community except among those that share like minded views. One thing I trully enjoyed about the trail was how many different kinds of people came together and were joined by a common bond...HIKING. Hell... me and Lone "harley" Wolf even got along at trail days. Gee thanks for nothing Baltimore Jack for introducing us. :D !!! Recently I was looking through my Backpacker mag and noticed a black female in an add near the back (about page 135 I think). No point there , but rather an observation.

weary
06-23-2004, 08:55
....200-year culture of slavery... --- Slavery existed for about 80 years in the U.S. and has been over for more than 140 years. The only place where slavery has gone on for more than 200 years AND STILL goes on is indeed, africa.
---------------------


Well, I guess technically, MD is right, since the U.S. was only about 80 years old in 1863 when the emancipation proclamation was issued. (and that only a half measure) But black slavery in the Western hemesphere began in the mid 1500s, when native populations enslaved by the Spanish and Portugese had mostly died from European diseases and no long provided the manpower needed to work the gold mines.

By the 1660s black slavery flourished through out the region. Black slavery was not a product of the American constitution as Mountain Dew's "80 years" seems to imply. Rather the consititution reflected existing slavery that was so widespread that the nation probably could not have been created had not slavery been allowed to continue in the south.

I forget when the constitution was amended to end legal slavery. But it was about 140 years ago, but the culture spawned by slavery dragged on in the south for another century. Full citizenship was not achieved until us liberals finally managed to pass and enforce black voting right laws.

Weary, who agrees this is not a useful topic for this forum, but who thinks distortions involving even off topic important matters should be corrected.

Alligator
06-23-2004, 09:42
200-year culture of slavery... --- Slavery existed for about 80 years in the U.S. and has been over for more than 140 years. The only place where slavery has gone on for more than 200 years AND STILL goes on is indeed, africa.
No, slavery goes on around the world to this very day, even here in the U.S.
http://www.state.gov/g/rls/rm/2004/31063.htm

gravityman
06-23-2004, 10:24
The same low IQ brought them to their conclusions and will , in all likelyhood, keep them forever ignorant.


MD, I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but given the previous discussion about the supposed minority IQ and the fact that most blacks are in fact liberal, this doesn't sound too good, and I would be highly offended if I was ethnic.

BTW I consider myself liberal, and I have a Ph. D. in physics. I have an IQ that is pretty far from the low end... Don't know why you are attacking like that...


Gravity Man

bunbun
06-23-2004, 11:33
I forget when the constitution was amended to end legal slavery. But it was about 140 years ago, but the culture spawned by slavery dragged on in the south for another century. Full citizenship was not achieved until us liberals finally managed to pass and enforce black voting right laws.

Weary, who agrees this is not a useful topic for this forum, but who thinks distortions involving even off topic important matters should be corrected.

If you believe the second paragraph, then you should correct your own mistake in the first one. It wasn't just "liberals" who passed the voting rights legislation. Without a LOT of "conservative" votes and support, it would have taken a lot longer to happen.

weary
06-23-2004, 11:56
If you believe the second paragraph, then you should correct your own mistake in the first one. It wasn't just "liberals" who passed the voting rights legislation. Without a LOT of "conservative" votes and support, it would have taken a lot longer to happen.

I should have chosen my words more carefully. Without conservative votes it probably still wouldn't have happened. But I do believe that it was liberal presidents and liberal activists that got voting rights on the political agenda.

Weary

Skyline
06-23-2004, 13:09
I should have chosen my words more carefully. Without conservative votes it probably still wouldn't have happened. But I do believe that it was liberal presidents and liberal activists that got voting rights on the political agenda.

Weary


Oh, voting rights were on the conservative agenda too, as late as the early '60s---an agenda to make sure blacks never got any. And the way some voting precinct workers and GOP loyalists intimidated black voters in Florida in 2000, an argument could be made that conservatives are still up to their dirty tricks in the 21st century.

There may have been a few--very few--conservatives who were arm-twisted into supporting the civil rights acts of the '60s and '70s, but without the liberals and progressives the laws would not have been written, and without the moderates they would not have been passed. It's usually those in the middle who make the difference on divisive issues.

Watch how the various gay-related issues and legislation play out over the next generation. History will repeat itself. The progressives will propose equality, the conservatives will do everything including waving their Bibles to stop it, and the moderates will eventually see that they need to undo the inequalities that exist today. That's precisely how it happened in the '50s and '60s regarding black civil rights--and back then, the conservatives used religion to justify their bigotry as they are doing today.

bunbun
06-23-2004, 13:56
Oh, voting rights were on the conservative agenda too, as late as the early '60s---an agenda to make sure blacks never got any. And the way some voting precinct workers and GOP loyalists intimidated black voters in Florida in 2000, an argument could be made that conservatives are still up to their dirty tricks in the 21st century.

There may have been a few--very few--conservatives who were arm-twisted into supporting the civil rights acts of the '60s and '70s, but without the liberals and progressives the laws would not have been written, and without the moderates they would not have been passed. It's usually those in the middle who make the difference on divisive issues.

Hmmm - really?? I don't think you have that quite right. First because you seem to equate "liberal" with "Democrat" and "conservative" with "Republican" - not only in the present, but in the past as well. And that ain't true. Nor is Weary's statement that "implies" that "only liberals" were responsible for this kind of legislation any less deceptive. Charleton Heston, for example, could hardly be termed a "liberal" - either then or now. But he was marching with Dr. King in Birmingham - and he wasn't even close to being "one of a kind" in that crowd.

But - where the rubber meets the road is in Congress - not Birmingham. And the fact is that the majority of Democrats voted AGAINST civil rights, while the majority of Republicans voted FOR civil rights. If it hadn't been for the Republicans, we might (as Weary suggested) still be fighting that battle.

Bottom line - don't confuse today's "liberalism" (which is not liberal at all) with the "liberalism" of the 60's that actually accomplished some good things. They're two entirely different beasts. I was there. And I was a Democrat (and considered "liberal") back then, just like my parents and grandparents had been. But that was then - this is now.

Now - I'm gonna suggest that we either get this thread back to reality (hiking) or drop the whole thing because this is REALLY non-productive - and divisive.

SGT Rock
06-23-2004, 13:59
Agreed, non-productive at this point rather than for people trying to figure out what they are and waht others are LOL. Me I hate if I get called either because labeling anyone by something such as liberal, conservative, redneck, ******, etc. just pidgenholes them into a steryotype. Useually what others call you just shows their own ignorance as to your character.

smokymtnsteve
06-23-2004, 14:05
Mostly I'm a bleeding heart liberal..cept I kinda look like a redneck hillbilly...
but I believe (along with rock n roll) in Conservation. so I am also a conservative,

copythat
06-23-2004, 14:33
... labeling anyone by something such as liberal, conservative, redneck, ******, etc. just pigeonholes them into a steryotype. Usually what others call you just shows their own ignorance as to your character ...


I don't know about talking politics on he trail, but I think we're doing a good job proving it has little place on this forum. With one or two notable exceptions, I believe we are a pickup truck full of white people trying to persuade ourselves we know all about what other people -- people of color, for example -- do when they are not at work.

An aside: I am an editor for a living. I edit newspaper stories eight hours a day, five days a week. (No, I won't debate 'How the liberal/conservative/corporate media is ruining the world' with you.) I can tell you, without doubt, that how a person spells (or even constructs sentences) seldom has anything to do with with how smart he or she is. Earlier comments about a person's arguments being undone by spelling errors hold little weight with me. 'Let he without sin cast the first stone ...'

Now ... I've crossed out this thread, and the one about carrying Glocks on the trail ... what could possibly be left? BACKPACKING??????????????

bunbun
06-23-2004, 14:58
Agreed, non-productive at this point rather than for people trying to figure out what they are and waht others are LOL. Me I hate if I get called either because labeling anyone by something such as liberal, conservative, redneck, ******, etc. just pidgenholes them into a steryotype. Useually what others call you just shows their own ignorance as to your character.

Rock - you won't get any argument about that from me. The only one who's ever been able to "pigeonhole" me is my wife - and sometimes I even surprise her. I've been tagged with "all" those names and more at one time or another. But those who tag me with them rarely, if ever, have a clue about who/what I really am. Anyway - let's see if we can redirect this thing.

The subject of "diversity" came up some time ago on another forum - and my comment was that "trail community "diversity" is a self-serving and self-delusional myth." And I wasn't just talking about the AT. And the idea wasn't well received there. Tough.

Now I haven't read "everything" on this thread - in fact, I've tried to avoid much of it. But this is "my" 20 cents worth - anyone who thinks the LACK of minority hikers is due to their race, color, lack of intelligence or other such factors has their head in a dark, warm smelly place and should get their collective heads out of their collective armpits.

I hiked with a man (Caucasian) on the PCT whose wife is from Central America - her attitude about his hiking the PCT was that it was disgusting (her word, not mine). I worked for 3 years for a Nisei who worked his way through college clearing trail in the South San Jauns (Colorado) - he doesn't hike and doesn't want to. I've worked for blacks and Chinese - few to none of them hike. The original question here was - why? And the answers seem to be too simple for some people to understand - because it's a CULTURAL THING.

Example - in many parts of the world, those who have money or status or power DO NOT walk. They ride - horses, carts, rickshaws, motorbikes, bicycles, cars - whatever. To walk would be an admission of low status.

Example - in some parts of the world, only rebels, terrorists or other undesirables go into the woods and live there. To voluntarily spend time in the woods labels one as an undesirable person.

Example - and Mags can attest to this - in some cultures (Italian just as one pertinent example) the family is more important than anything else - to leave the family is to be voluntarily ostracized - and to hike for 6 months is definitely "leaving the family." And NOT acceptable.

Example - in some cultures, the concept of a thruhike is much, much too close to the way the people of that culture live their everyday lives - and their desire is to improve their lives, to get away from everything that's implied by "spending time in the woods" - not to continue to live in dirt and squalor.

There are a lot more examples - but I think that's enough for now.

As for the idea that we, as hikers, are "responsible" for correcting the ituation - frankly, that smacks of the "White Man's burden" philosophy. And we (the human race) has been through that mess. I'm much more in agreement with the idea that it's not our "responsibility" but that, as a group, it's absolutely in our best interest to "change the face" of the trails. Or at least the color of some of the faces. I won't belabor it here, but for anyone who's interested, a few of my thoughts on why I consider it an urgent necessity can be found here:

http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/at-l/2004-May/030585.html

But it all boils down to this - that if the average color of the faces on the trails doesn't get darker, then the trails (and most of the "wilderness") will simply disappear. Yeah - we'll get more city parks, rail trails, playgrounds, ball parks, public beaches, etc. But that's not what we're all here for, is it?

Mountain Dew
06-23-2004, 15:24
TJ.. -" How brave of you to place your claim "The same low IQ brought them to their conclusions and will , in all likelyhood [sic], keep them forever ignorant." on top of a pile of spelling, punctuation, grammatical, and historical errors."
TJ... If you wish to ignore history and be the classic liberal revisionist historian go ahead....who cares. Calling somebody to task for grammatical errors is nothing short of waving the white flag online. Do I need to grade all of your posts as well ? Say something constructive about the relatied topic.

Weary... - Yes, I was right and thanks for acknowledging that fact. Don't hold the U.S. accountable for things that happened on this soil before we became a nation.
- "but the culture spawned by slavery dragged on in the south for another century." ---as apposed to the north where it didn't ? "
- "Full citizenship was not achieved until us liberals finally managed to pass and enforce black voting right laws." --- JFK had little support from his own party while trying to pass the civil rights bill. The civil rights bill passed in the 60's thanks to the majority vote by republicans and JFK. How do you like them apples ?

Alligator.. - "No, slavery goes on around the world to this very day, even here in the U.S." ---When did I say slavery DOESN'T go on to this very day ? Comparing America's past slavery to today's slavery in America is like comparing the mountains in Kansas to the ones of Colorado.

Gravityman... - "MD, I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but given the previous discussion about the supposed minority IQ and the fact that most blacks are in fact liberal, this doesn't sound too good, and I would be highly offended if I was ethnic." ---I NEVER commented on that "previous discussion" about minority IQ so trying to draw a line between it and me wont work. I also disagree with your comment about most blacks being liberal. Please use MY words against me and not those from another conversation that i had nothing to do with.
- "BTW I consider myself liberal, and I have a Ph. D. in physics. I have an IQ that is pretty far from the low end... Don't know why you are attacking like that..." --- I understand that I.Q. isn't the end all of measurements, but it remains one of the best. Being a member of Mensa, I've also known complete idiots to have their Ph. D. That is NOT to imply you are in any way an idiot either. I agree with most all of your post and enjoy reading them usually. Associating IQ with education level isn't a good idea usually.

bunbun.... Good grief...we agree on something here ! I'm glad you know the history behind the civil rights bill. You even know some Ben Hur history. Amazing.... Be careful how much you agree with me though....Lone Wolf gets real jealous. :clap
------------------------------------
Skyline... "And the way some voting precinct workers and GOP loyalists intimidated black voters in Florida in 2000" --- hahahaaa So untrue ...hey, learn some real history about the civil rights bill. Skyline, bashing God and Christians is so earthy of you. Makes me wanna hug a tree.

Sgt. Rock ... I know what you are trying to say, but with that said.....isn't calling yourself Sgt. the same thing ? Not all labels are bad and even some that are bad are needed. --- i.e. terrorist

Lone Wolf
06-23-2004, 15:25
I have a friend who is Japanese that hiked the AT a lot in the late 80s and early nineties. One night I said "It's nippy". He said. "Hey, watch the slurs". :D

Mountain Dew
06-23-2004, 15:32
hahahahaaaaa :clap

firefly
06-23-2004, 15:44
Who introduced you to backpacking?? I was very lucky. My father was in the military..we camped out on weekends and on family vacations...yum-peanut butter from tin cans. My older brother was a boy scout..I was a girl scout-then an explorer scout. I love to camp and backpack and I drag everybody along for the ride that I possibly can. If you were lucky enough someone introduced you to backpacking. If no one in your family backpacked or you moved here from another country or you were not in a youth group that went to the woods then you probably never gave it much of a thought. I believe you do not see many minorities on the trail because for various reasons they have not been exposed to it. Things are changing now. Extreme Sports & Adventure Racing are all over television (along with Survivor) You do see minorities participating. There are lots of clubs that teach outdoor skills and take groups on trips. There are books and videos available to everyone. AND of course there is the internet where even an old camping nut like me learns something new everyday :)

Pencil Pusher
06-23-2004, 15:57
Opie and Anthony would have a good solution to this, but unfortunately they got canned a while back: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/opieanthony1.html

SGT Rock
06-23-2004, 16:13
I don't consider SGT to be a label that someone else calls me to define me in his way of thinking. SGT is something I had to earn and work for. Somewhat like being called a Dr or something like that (not that I feel I have devoted the study to my profession a doctor had). But if I were to call you a neo-facist it probably is way off, yet someone taking some of your posts may think this of you from their yellow-dog democrat point of view. :-? Their label of you is just as wrong as yours may be of theirs.

I am from the south, but I ain't a redneck or hillbilly. I am conservative in a lot of ways, but have some ideas that are sometimes labled as "liberal". I have Indian, Scottish, Dutch, English, and probably some other ethnic groups in my bloodline, but calling me any of those titles above doesn't take any part of my character, intelligence, or background into accound. Honestly, I have heard some good arguments on all sides of many political subjects here, but often one side (liberal, conservative, or whatever the issue at hand is) totally discounts a valid point by the other by saying something like "You conservatives always say...." or "You liberals always resort to..." this sort of dialogue is just as bad as yelling at someone while putting ear plugs in your own ears. If you ever want to get a point accross to someone the last thing you want to do is pidgenhole them like that in a conversation and simply debate an idea on the merits of the facts and reason. It also helps as well to know when to give up, and it helps to know not to sink into the labeling an name calling the person you may be talking to resort to.

Anyway, we are getting off topic again LOL.

Mags
06-23-2004, 16:13
>>Example - and Mags can attest to this - in some cultures (Italian just as >>one pertinent example) the family is more important than anything else - to l>>eave the family is to be voluntarily ostracized - and to hike for 6 months is >>definitely "leaving the family." And NOT acceptable.

:) Yep...the Magnanti clan (and esp. mom's side of the family which is isn't Magnanti..but the dynamics are the same) scratched their collective heads over someone voluntarily being homeless and in the woods for months on the end. When I moved to Colorado it was a bit of mini-scandal as 6 children and 16 grandchildren all lived within 10 minutes of each other. I am still considered a black sheep of sorts in the family. My family loves me dearly..just don't understand why I had to move so far away (Esp. five years ago when it first happened! On my mom's visit last year, she started crying and said "Sons should not do this to their mothers". So..it is still an adjustment for my family for me to be living 2000 miles away.)

Yep. The trail is NOT a diverse place. Hoepfully that will change. As of now it is pretty much the domain of middle - upper middle class, college educated, caucasians. Not a cross section of America to say the least.

As mentioned in another forum, hiking the trail was an eye opener for me. It really introduced me to ideas and concepts that were alien to me.
Interesting to meet people whose experience was much different than mine. People who grew up without knowing their grandparents as someone down the street, only working during the summer months, having cousins all over the US as opposed to literally down the street, etc. I can honestly say if I did not start backpacking probably would have followed a path that would leave me a much different person than I am today. As Jim mentioned, this path I did follow was not always a smooth one.

(There is a great book about this type of experience called LIMBO by Albert Lubrano. People like myself who have crossed over from a blue collar background to a "middle class" one. Thru-hiking was a definite part of the experience for me!)

Anyway, as Jim mentioned, diverstiy of all types needs to be encouraged for trail users. Not just for PC reasons so we can sing "Kum Buy Ya" around the campfire but so we can be sure that the wilderness we love continues to be supported. People who do not experience the outdoors are less likely to support it. As long as the outdoors is perceived as the domain of a very small group of people, the overall tax dollars and resources may not go to support what we love as much. People literally vote with their feet in this case!

Anyway, diversity on the trail is more than just about "race" (which is a cultural and not a biological term. 100 years ago, the powers that be debated in my ancestors were "White" for example). The trail, and the outdoors in general, need to be loved by more than our small non-too-diverse tribe.

How to reach out to more people? I honestly do not know.

As with many people I can define what the issue is...and as with many people coming up an answer will take harder work.


Mags (a family nick name of at least 80 years...)

Skyline
06-23-2004, 22:43
Hmmm - really?? I don't think you have that quite right. First because you seem to equate "liberal" with "Democrat" and "conservative" with "Republican" - not only in the present, but in the past as well. And that ain't true.




I am quite aware that the Dixiecrats of the '50s/'60s were as right wing as the Republicans of the '80s, '90s, and '00s. In fact some are the same people, or their offspring, who have simply switched parties. Some of my relatives from Georgia, North Carolina, and Mississippi were PROUD Democrats. They switched to the Republican party about the time McGovern ran against Nixon in '72. They found a home there, and their kids and grandkids are now almost all Republicans. Today, the liberal wing of the GOP is a relic, and in many jurisdictions even the moderate Republicans are drowned out by the drumbeat of the Limbaughs, Frists, Gingrichs, Delays, Drudges, Falwells, Hannitys, Helms', Santorums and their ilk.

The point is: U.S. conservatives--at least those neo-cons being increasingly referred to as the Taliban Wing of the Republican Party, and their brethren before them who were just as likely to be Democrats--have ALWAYS had a huge problem making room at the American table for anyone or any group of people that was not like them, not part of their view of what was normal and mainstream. They supported slavery, they didn't think women should be able to vote, they fought violently for over a century to make sure blacks were denied equal status, they waved their Bibles to "prove" that God's plan prohibited people of different races from marrying, and in today's culture war we have them on the wrong side of stem cell research, a whole list of issues involving gay men and lesbians, and given more power they will strive to make sure that none of us are able to see, hear, or read anything that Ozzie and Harriet wouldn't approve of.

Kozmic Zian
06-24-2004, 08:39
Yea......Race?...........Didn't wanna do this one, but I must say....this is a changing world we live in guys. It hain't like it was back in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Bob Dylan said, "The Times, They Are A Changin'", in the 60's.....rest assured they are. Living and writing and producing art work for a living in the Greater Washington DC area, has certainly opened my eyes to this aspect of life. Concerning the 'Race Card', either you is or you ain't my baby. But, if you is, get ready for the shock of your lives, 'cause the times they are a changing.

Diversity is the theme for 'New America', as we enter the 21st century. People from all over the world now make up core groups all over the country. You have Africans (east, west, south & north), Southwest Asias (Saudis, Afganis, Indians, Maylays), East Asians (Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, Koreans, Island People), South Americans (Latinos, Central Americans, Andeans, Mestisos, Indians, others) and in general, people from all over the world, including European nations, living in America today. These groups of 'new Americans' are growing larger everyday. This is not the world that our forefathers (the old Europeans) took from the Native Americans. So all I can say is, you can go live 'on the side of the mountain', and pull up your 'racism boots', or join the rest of the nation and the world, and learn to live and respect diversity. Love it or Leave it, it's here to stay. KZ@:-?

Ramble~On
06-24-2004, 08:46
Yeah and don't forget about us SCOTS.
I'm sooo Bloody happy so many people are wearing Kilts these days
:banana

bethagibbs
06-27-2004, 22:11
Saw the post on minority hikers. I'm one - not a thru hiker - yet. I've just done parts of the trail in New England. A friend and I were talking today about connecting with other minority hikers- African American in particular - anybody else out there?

Lone Wolf
06-27-2004, 22:16
Ain't too many folks on here that have dual citezenship. Do you travel to Africa often?

weary
06-27-2004, 23:05
Ain't too many folks on here that have dual citezenship. Do you travel to Africa often?

Lone Wolf. You're a jerk.

Weary

Lone Wolf
06-27-2004, 23:07
Explain why. If the lady wasn't born in Africa then she's an American. Name calling ain't a very mature thing to resort to, weary.

Pencil Pusher
06-28-2004, 01:31
Not to pick on LW, but I'm more in agreeance with Weary. LW, your feigning innocence on this topic is lame.

oyvay
06-28-2004, 12:45
Sorry there Weary and Pencil pusher, I have to side with LW. If your not from (or ever been to) Africa how can someone be African-American? The term "gook" is actually slang for "hanguk" (mark over the U). It's the Corean term for Corean. The second syllable is pronounced "gook," sure explains why the Vietnamese were pissed off! BTW I did not misspell "Corean" it's the proper spelling. The Japanese started spelling that way from about 1910, so "Japan" was listed first in the dictionary. How's that for racism? (ethnicism?)

weary
06-28-2004, 13:09
Sorry there Weary and Pencil pusher, I have to side with LW. If your not from (or ever been to) Africa how can someone be African-American? ....(ethnicism?)

My dictionary -- like most dictionaries -- defines African among other definitions as "a person of black African descent." It defines "American" among other definitions as a "native or citizen of the United States."

Therefore an African-American is a person of black African descent who is a citizen of the United States. It's really not complicated for those of us with a desire to understand.

Weary

Lone Wolf
06-28-2004, 13:31
I am a European-American. Soon to be a minority in this country. But the more I think about it we're ALL African-American in this country if you're a citizen. Anthropologists have pretty much proven all humans decended from Africa. :)

steve hiker
06-28-2004, 14:03
First they didn't want to be called ******s (Etymology: Spanish or Portuguese, from negro black, from Latin nigr-, *****). Then they didn't want to be called negros, they wanted to be colored. Then they didn't want to be colored, they wanted to be black. Now they're tired of being black, and they want to be called Africans. What next?!

steve hiker
06-28-2004, 14:13
I see the politically corrected Whiteblaze word filter has censored part of my post, and also censored Merriam-Webster's online dictionary.

This is ridiculous. I've always called them n!.gg.ers, just like almost everyone else I've known since I was a kid, and always will. These fad terms that go in and out of style every decade or so are a bunch of crap.

MOWGLI
06-28-2004, 14:25
This is ridiculous. I've always called them n!.gg.ers, just like almost everyone else I've known since I was a kid, and always will.

It's unfortunte that some people in the year 2004 still harbor the hatred and bitterness that is evident in some of these posts. I have edited my original knee-jerk post to avoid stooping to the levels of others. I do need to say that I think that referring to fellow human beings as "apes" and by using the N-Word shows a level of ignorance that I find astounding.

Last week I watched Mississippi Burning with my 14 y.o. daughter. Tonight I'll show her some of the posts here to let her know that the type of hatred shown in that true-to-life film still exists in parts of America today.

How sad.

Little Bear

Mountain Dew
06-28-2004, 17:56
MOWGLI16....It's good that you are taking an active part in teaching your daughter life lessons. Isn't it a shame that you can show her a film depicting whites being all out racist towards blacks, but couldn't find a film showing the opposite if you wanted to. I'm glad to see a dad sit down and talk to their kids about real life issues.
-----------------------------------------
Way too many people think racism is a one-way street.

Lone Wolf
06-28-2004, 18:13
MOWGLI, where did anyone refer to anybody being "apes"?

MOWGLI
06-28-2004, 18:22
MOWGLI, where did anyone refer to anybody being "apes"?


The below post was from this thread. Personally, I find this kind of thought repugnant.





"I hike to get away from blacks. Where I live, in the Deep South, blacks are over 50% of the population in many areas. It's like Planet of the Apes.

"...Hike your own hike and if the blacks decide they want to suddenly pick up and go out in the mountains with a bunch of white people, they can do so. In the meantime, I'll enjoy my breaks from Planet of the Apes."

Lone Wolf
06-28-2004, 21:21
Yeah that's pretty bad.

Youngblood
06-28-2004, 21:24
I for one would appreciate it if people would refrain from using derogator terms or comments on this web site. It is my believe that the hiking community should be above all that. Typically we see the best of people on the trail and that is one of the reasons that the trail experience is so special. Please practice self restraint so that any negativism that you may have doesn't degrade this unique web site experience for others.

We have enough tension on some hiking related subjects (blue blazing vs white blazing, dogs on the trail, guns on the trail, etc.) without this nonsense.

Thanks,
Youngblood

TJ aka Teej
06-28-2004, 21:28
Saw the post on minority hikers. I'm one - not a thru hiker - yet. I've just done parts of the trail in New England. A friend and I were talking today about connecting with other minority hikers- African American in particular - anybody else out there?

Welcome to WhiteBlaze.net, Betha! :welcome
May I suggest using the 'hooking up' forum here, placing an advert in the ATC's monthy magazine or the ALDHA newsletter,and joining the AMC's bulletin board and/or the woman's hiking email list? Don't mind this thread too much, "two" of the trolls posting appear to be the same person just being as obnoxious as possible.

smokymtnsteve
06-28-2004, 22:04
I for one would appreciate it if people would refrain from using derogator terms or comments on this web site. It is my believe that the hiking community should be above all that. Typically we see the best of people on the trail and that is one of the reasons that the trail experience is so special. Please practice self restraint so that any negativism that you may have doesn't degrade this unique web site experience for others.

We have enough tension on some hiking related subjects (blue blazing vs white blazing, dogs on the trail, guns on the trail, etc.) without this nonsense.

Thanks,
Youngblood


I agree with you youngblood...100% but let's not overlook the fact that Racism exsist..everywhere including here on the trail (as has been shown and proven by some posts here)

Kozmic Zian
06-28-2004, 22:35
.................................................. .......

Kozmic Zian
06-28-2004, 22:40
Yea.......I see what you see MOGLI16. How can a bright, intelligent and young person in America today, be so misguided and unenlightened? Guess that's the real reason ethnic people don't want to hike on trails in this country.....man, what's the world coming to? Glad I'm as old as I am and don't have to put up with it too God awfully much longer. KZ@:-?

Dainon
06-29-2004, 09:01
My daughter, age 18, is Japanese and will be leaving July 9 for a 10-day hiking/rock climbing trip to Blanca Peak Trailhead, Colorado. For her, hiking surpassed her previous 13 year passion, gymnastics.

Rain Man
06-29-2004, 16:02
I for one would appreciate it if people would refrain from using derogator terms or comments on this web site.

AMEN. Pretty disgusting stuff going on here from the mouths of only one or two.
:-?

Rain Man

.

SteveHikerBitesMe
06-29-2004, 19:33
First they didn't want to be called ******s (Etymology: Spanish or Portuguese, from negro black, from Latin nigr-, *****). Then they didn't want to be called negros, they wanted to be colored. Then they didn't want to be colored, they wanted to be black. Now they're tired of being black, and they want to be called Africans. What next?!And you probably don't want to be called a stupid f***ing cracker @**hole kluxxer, mouth-breathing, can barely read, stupid (wait, I already said that), waste of skin moron, but if you talk that ***** in my face, I'll make you wish you could get back on the boat to stupid-land.

BTW, we all came from Africa originally, pansy-boy. Your kind, and by that I mean brain-dead morons, make us all look bad

Kiss my white @ss, punk.

P.S. You sure got a pretty mouth, boy, why don't you come on over here for a few minutes.

Nightwalker
06-29-2004, 19:52
OK, the White is Right thread was probably in bad taste. But it had potential for an incitefull discussion (I hope).

It does bring up a point that many have noticed: most of the hikers out there are Caucasians. I can count all tha African-American hikers I know on one hand, and I don't know any oriental or hispanic hikers.

Any thoughts?

Squeaky, my wife, is Cuban, so I guess that counts.

Frank

Nightwalker
06-29-2004, 20:09
I didn't mention Hispanics for two reasons. Number one is that as far as our government is concerned, when reporting crime statistics - they are considered white.

Wrong, or at least outdated. Check a few stats at http://www.census.gov/

Frank

Nightwalker
06-29-2004, 20:14
PS. They might feature Neil Young if anybody would bother to pay to see him. :)

I would definitely rather see Neil Young than that Skynyrd cover-band.

:D

Nightwalker
06-29-2004, 20:16
I suspect the primary differences between the races may be cultural. I suspect a bit more than a century may be too short to erase a 200-year culture of slavery. And 40 years may be too short to erase a culture that applauded the killing of little children and refused to convict their murderers in an attempt to keep blacks from voting -- or even having an equal right to a seat on a bus.

Weary

Weary, you're not gonna believe this, but for once I completely agree with you...

Nightwalker
06-29-2004, 20:32
Mostly I'm a bleeding heart liberal..cept I kinda look like a redneck hillbilly...

I'm a bleeding-heart conservative, and that doesn't fit anywhere. That is unless we're actually given a chance to think for ourselves, and not fit in any pigeon-holes.

:)

steve hiker
06-29-2004, 20:37
LOL. My very own troll, made in my own image. Or, a fan?


BTW, we all came from Africa originally, pansy-boy.
Sorry to break your bubble SteveHikerFan, but all of my ancestors came from Europe. And so did yours, if you're white like you say. That's a little fact the PC tyrants are trying to get us to forget.

Kozmic Zian
06-29-2004, 21:16
Yea......Cheeezzzzeeee! Why don't you guys carry the hate mail to e-mail, why do the rest of us have to read this BS! KZ@

Lone Wolf
06-29-2004, 21:27
Lock this mutha down!

smokymtnsteve
06-29-2004, 21:35
Yea......Cheeezzzzeeee! Why don't you guys carry the hate mail to e-mail, why do the rest of us have to read this BS! KZ@

I'm just assuming your not a Minority KZ..you don't even like hearing this hate mail on the internet...but how about if you were a minority and had to live with this HATE ALL the TIME... It's out there..it's a fact..a fact minorities deal with 24/7.

Kozmic Zian
06-29-2004, 22:04
Yea........Thanks Steve. I wouldn't like it one bit. I'd be like 'StevehikerBitesMe'. Responding that same way. Being as I'm not 'other-ethnic', but European by descent, I still abhor, as we enter the 21st Century, the 'I'm better than You are because I got here 1st', mentality. It's lame beyond belief.....because the Europeans stole this country from the Native Americans 300 years ago, using Christianity as a shield. Killing and raping and attacking violently these humble and proud people in the name of religion.....In itself, pretty damn lame. It's time to re-sheath the 'Racism Sword', by all peoples, including those who claim predjudice. You don't have to be ethnic to have a lock on feeling predjudice.....all people have a choice to either be racist or not. It's not a particular 'group' thing at all. Children are not born racist, rather they learn it from their parents and those around them. Racism is born out of fear and ignorance. Fear of things and people that are different, and ignorance enough to not be able to determine that it's (racism) not the spiritually right way to be. So, we live and learn, and hopefully a few of us get out of that(racist) pit, and go on to have productive and spiritually active lives, Thanks to the Grace of God and the Blessings of the Mother Earth.KZ@;)

steve hiker
06-29-2004, 22:20
...why do the rest of us have to read this BS!The short answer is, you don't. If you don't like a topic, don't open the thread. And just for clarification, I am not a fan of this thread. I think the opening premise is lame. And the thread title, like the gun, dog, and Wingfoot threads, virtually assures an endless debate and flame war.

I tried to ignore this stupid* thread for a long time. I was relieved when it finally went away about 6 months ago and fell into the archives. Then someone dredged it back up about 2 weeks ago, and it's been at the top ever since.

I finally responded after getting sick to death of seeing the same BS politically-corrected views being repeated over and over. The same dangerous propaganda being pushed brazenly by the media and certain political terror groups, who hold the media and politicians captive. So I have responded with my honest views (along with a few other rare, free souls here), which until very, very recently were the obvious mainstream views of the people in this country. They probably still are, but everybody's afraid to speak their minds today. Is there something dangerous going on in our society?

I hesitated to respond to my fan's post earlier today, but changed my mind on the premise that silence can imply timidity or agreement. And if thereís one thing that free people should not do today's Patriot Act world, itís to give in to "political-correctness" tyranny and stifle their opinions. There was an excellent Charleston Heston speech about this very dangerous trend, but Iím too lazy right now to search for it.


*(I call this thread lame and stupid because there is nothing wrong with the AT community, and there is nothing wrong with backpacking being primarily a white activity. We don't need quotas or programs to recruit blacks into hiking the AT. Just let us be, okay.)

Jack Tarlin
06-29-2004, 22:23
Geez, this thread is getting silly. One one side, we have lefties drowning in political correctness decrying how mean and horrible the world can be....on the other, we have troglodyte bigots spouting filth and venom under the convenient and happy cloak of anonymity.

A plague on both your houses!

I dunno where to begin here.....so many of the comments of the past few days are too foolish, crude, or hatefilled to merit a response. And then, on the other side, we get self-righteous revisionist crap like KZ's.....first of all, KZ, your history's off; oppression of the Indians goes back a lot further than 300 years, but more importantly, your comments about the horrors and indignities perpetrated on the proud and noble natives is more than a bit silly. Someday, you should do some reading and check out what these paragons of virtue and civility did to EACH OTHER long before any European arrived to teach them how to be mean and horrible. I assure you they needed no lessons from the likes of us; if you doubt me, read up on on how the Hurons, Mohawk, and Iroquois treated their enemies long before the British or French darkened their shores, or better yet, bone up on how the Comanches and Apaches treated THEIR enemies, who, before the Spanish arrived, were, of course, other Indians. Discovering what these folks did to each other at every opportunity will curdle your blood, if, of course, you bother to find out about it. Fact is, we were no more cruel or savage to our native population than they were to each other.... we weren't any more brutal; we were merely more efficient in our methods.

Ahhh, this is pointless. I dunno which is worse----hate-filled bigots blaming other people for their problems, or bleeding-heart liberals who can't possibly imagine that Europeans or Americans ever did anything right.

Maybe it's time to let this thread die a well-deserved death, and maybe we should think about talking about the Trail......wow, what a novel concept.

Lone Wolf
06-29-2004, 22:31
Jack has spoken. He is correct. Taps...

steve hiker
06-29-2004, 22:34
Maybe it's time to let this thread die a well-deserved death, and maybe we should think about talking about the Trail......wow, what a novel concept.
I agree. I can take only so much pee see bullcrap before I respond. And when I do respond, it will be the truth as I see it, or feel it, or believe it -- whether you like it or not.

Pencil Pusher
06-29-2004, 22:35
Yeah Jack, good response.