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View Full Version : Shelter etiquette question.....I think I got bamboozled :(



thecyclops
06-05-2015, 17:25
Ill try to condense the story...
Gooch mountain shelter On Monday,6-01-2015,me and a buddy coming from hawk mountain shelter,tired,wet,etc (yes it rained entire time we were there,LOL) and when we got there,only 3 camping spots were left and all spots AND all of the shelter was taken up by a church youth group.....
The church group was there almost 2 days,as they actually took a 0 day at the shelter on Monday and had only a 1.4 mile hike out to gooch gap where church van awaited...
7-15 year olds in woods playing "war",as im at the privy wiping man parts,they are on ridge well within eye shot...
As I come down from privy,aforementioned kids down in front/behind my shelter and my hiking partners tent,again,playing war....
Several hikers,while it was raining,were forced on down the trail,because shelter was taken by youth croup...
3am a HUGE storm came through and we were OK,but to be honest,it would have been nice to wait that out in the biggest shelter on the Georgia section of the AT instead of hunkered under a tarp....
I though large groups were to take spots only and not shelter? Leaving shelters for the thrus and section guys...Am I wrong? What is trail etiquette? What,if anything should have been said? Or is this just par for the course?
Thanks...just want to know next time,if something like this happens.

Slo-go'en
06-05-2015, 17:34
In theory, groups should be limited to 10 people max (including chaperons) and they should not take over a shelter. Some groups abide by the rules while others could give a crap about other people, like the group you ran into. Complaining does no good, but it can make you feel better after a rightness rant.

rickb
06-05-2015, 17:38
Best to get perspective on this from the oracle: Lone Wolf.

thecyclops
06-05-2015, 17:48
Best to get perspective on this from the oracle: Lone Wolf.
I would love to get his insight......

thecyclops
06-05-2015, 17:50
the group was around 20-30 I would say.

MuddyWaters
06-05-2015, 18:19
Go read ATC website.
Groups are not supposed to use shelters.
Just another reason why they should be removed.
That includes groups of section hikers and thru hikers too, they make no exception for them.

illabelle
06-05-2015, 18:20
There's ignorance: I would expect that a lot of camping groups like this don't know about any "Rules" and have never heard of leave-no-trace. If you made mention of the rules, they'd possibly look all over the shelter for them.

And then there's belligerence: 7 to 15 year-olds are generally going to follow the lead of their chaperons, and if the chaperons choose to ignore the rules, they're training a new group of idiots.

You can educate the first. Not much you can do about the other.

I'm pretty sure Lone Wolf would say stay away from the shelter.

GoldenBear
06-05-2015, 18:26
The Gooch Mountain Shelter is within Chattahoochee National Forest.
The only regulations I could find on limits to stays in shelter is that no person can stay at any one sight for more than three nights during any thirty day period.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3824389.pdf
There does not seem to be any limit on the size of a group, or at least any that I could find.

The GENERAL rule I've always followed on shelters is simple: first come, first served.
Three times I've arrived at shelters that were full due to a college crowd having a weekend "bonding" trip just before the start of the school year.
I wasn't happy at any of these incidents, but I realized I had no cause for complaint. They got there before I did, so I had to simply make do.
In one of these cases, similar to yours (shelter full but heavy rain occurring), I asked them to make room for me, and they were kind (or took pity on me) enough to agree.
I sort of "sang for my supper" by sharing my backpacking experience and expertise to people who had never backpacked in their lives.


> I though[t] large groups were to take spots only and not shelter?
> Leaving shelters for the thrus and section guys ... Am I wrong?

The only rule I could find is a GUIDELINE from the ATC:
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hiking/hiking-basics/families-groups
"Groups are welcome on the Trail, but bear in mind that the Trail is narrow and campsites are small.
Please follow these guidelines as you plan your outings. ...
When staying at Trail shelters where tenting is permitted, pitch tents nearby, leaving the shelter for solo hikers."

The extent to which these guidelines supersede the FCFS guideline is a matter of opinion.
You could always ask for mercy in these situations, but I myself wouldn't raise any fuss if I didn't get what I wanted.


I've always felt that part of the adventure of back-country camping is that you DON'T know what you'll get on the trail.
The shelter or hostel might be full, or even closed.
The water source might be completely dry.
The post office might have closed an hour early.
The campsite might be under three inches of water.

In all of these cases, you might have experienced misfortune, but I wouldn't say you were bamboozled.
For myself, I would simply make alternate plans.

johnnybgood
06-05-2015, 19:08
Similar situation happened to me at Ensign Cowall Shelter a few years back. Substitute a Maryland Boy Scout Troop for a church group.
I waited for the torrential rain to slacken to move on . A fellow hiker I met the next day said the entire group of about 20 was still there late that morning.
Scout Masters should've split their group in half , with one half hiking ahead, so as not to crowd out other hikers.
On the bright side I was so glad I got ahead of them by a day.

Lone Wolf
06-05-2015, 19:11
I would love to get his insight......

shelters are first come, first served. NOBODY gets preferential treatment. especially thru-hikers

shelb
06-05-2015, 19:41
Please, do not be opposed to groups.

Groups just need to have guidelines - for the dummies who can't figure out what basic LNT is....

I feel that the ATC should advise that groups are welcome to stay in camping areas BUT NOT SHELTERS! IMO (although I am a lowly section-hiker), shelters should be reserved for unaffiliated groups of 4 or fewer.

Groups should also be advised to make sure they travel in numbers of 15 or less. (I believe BSA actually states 14??). If they have more than that, they should divide and not camp in the same area. This is specified on the NCT portion of Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore. Note: If they do not have enough adults, too bad! Our Troop had to limit events on a few occasions because we didn't have the adults for a second or third group.

rickb
06-05-2015, 19:44
Wolf is right, but just because people can do something does not mean they should.

Lone Wolf
06-05-2015, 19:45
i consider 30 wannabe thru-hikers starting on the same day, a group. they should stay out of shelters

BirdBrain
06-05-2015, 20:00
If the lack of space in a shelter messes up your long walk, then you are not prepared for your long walk. Let them have the rodent hotels. Sleeping in your carried shelter is a better option anyways.

MuddyWaters
06-05-2015, 20:08
Please, do not be opposed to groups.

Groups just need to have guidelines - for the dummies who can't figure out what basic LNT is....

I feel that the ATC should advise that groups are welcome to stay in camping areas BUT NOT SHELTERS! IMO (although I am a lowly section-hiker), shelters should be reserved for unaffiliated groups of 4 or fewer.

Groups should also be advised to make sure they travel in numbers of 15 or less. (I believe BSA actually states 14??). If they have more than that, they should divide and not camp in the same area. This is specified on the NCT portion of Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore. Note: If they do not have enough adults, too bad! Our Troop had to limit events on a few occasions because we didn't have the adults for a second or third group.

Universally, groups monopolize space, disturb others, and create an environment reminiscent of the one most people go to the trail to get AWAY from.
This is pretty much why they are despised, behaviors aside.

No one wants to hike 10 miles to feel like they are at a state park on 4th of July weekend. Thats groups.

shelb
06-05-2015, 20:08
If the lack of space in a shelter messes up your long walk, then you are not prepared for your long walk. Let them have the rodent hotels. Sleeping in your carried shelter is a better option anyways.

I get where you are coming from; however, it is nice - from a social standpoint - to stay in the shelters if they aren't taken up by a group.

BirdBrain
06-05-2015, 20:28
I get where you are coming from; however, it is nice - from a social standpoint - to stay in the shelters if they aren't taken up by a group.

I honestly don't grasp the dilemma. I don't socialize while I am sleeping. I have never been to a shelter where people did not allow me to socialize with people in a shelter while I was awake even though I was not planning on sleeping in the shelter.

fiddlehead
06-05-2015, 21:32
I think it's great that they get the kids out there.
Being rained on for a few days would make it a bit of a turn-off, but turning it into a fun trip by playing war? Well, to each their own I guess.
Some of the church people I know seem to like war, so, I guess it fits.

Just Bill
06-05-2015, 22:32
General rule of thumb for a group- don't fill up "non-group" designated areas with your group.

General rule of thumb for the AT- tough $#!T if the shelter is full.

Generally though folks tend to help out in a bad storm- and we all like shelters in a bad storm.

Another Kevin
06-05-2015, 23:14
If you define "bad storm" as "you can hear the widowmakers crashing down all through the woods, and the wind is likely to tear your tent/hammock/tarp to shreds", yes, that's one thing that will get me into a shelter in hiking season. I don't mind, much, using them in winter, or using ones on less-popular trails where they may get one party a week. Although that raccoon in Harriman may make me revise my thinking.

For a lesser storm, well, I'm pretty sure that my tent won't leak. Can't say the same about the roof of any given shelter.

Mr. Bumpy
06-06-2015, 00:07
Should have sparked one up. That will usually prompt a group like that to move on. Or get naked. Or both.

Offshore
06-06-2015, 08:38
Wolf is right, but just because people can do something does not mean they should.

Exactly. We're raised a couple of generations with perhaps a little bit too much self-esteem, though. Common courtesy isn't all that common anymore.

bshow
06-06-2015, 09:12
Unfortunately, (some) church youth groups are the worst of the worst.. Of course, the whole concept of a church "youth group" is completely unbiblical...

Bronk
06-06-2015, 11:00
When you're out in the woods, miles from any kind of enforcement capability there really aren't any rules As in most places in life, people generally only follow the rules that they agree with balanced with what they think they can get away with. And specifically when it comes to the AT I've noticed that there are a lot of self appointed do gooders who make up their own rules...such as the recent case where it came to light that there actually isn't any kind of rule saying you can't camp on Max Patch, but experienced hikers had been saying so for so many years that people thought it was an actual rule.

peakbagger
06-06-2015, 11:14
Sometimes adult leaders are assigned the role and are clueless. Generally by talking with them if they are interested in learning you can pay it forward to some future hiker by explaining etiquette to the group leaders. I find the church group leaders particularly clueless but scout leaders also can be if they are new to the program. Frequently most youth organizations are desperate for adult leaders, its practically a full time job for scout leaders and frequently it come down to if the parents want their son in the program they have to participate as leaders, if they hang around enough there is excellent training available but frequently it comes down just getting someone with pulse.

MuddyWaters
06-06-2015, 11:55
Frequently most youth organizations are desperate for adult leaders, its practically a full time job for scout leaders and frequently it come down to if the parents want their son in the program they have to participate as leaders, if they hang around enough there is excellent training available but frequently it comes down just getting someone with pulse.

The flip side of this, is most adults will be somewhat suspicious of an older adult youth leader, with no kids of their own involved, and rightfully so.

WingedMonkey
06-06-2015, 12:15
My usual remedy for disrespectful groups is an after the fact action.

With Scout troops, church groups or "hoods in the woods", it's usually counterproductive to point out poor habits to the adults while it is going on. Unless there is some real danger that needs to be prevented.

If I can, I find out where they are from and what organization sponsors the group or the event and contact them. It doesn't help at the time of discomfort but hopefully some education and training can take place afterwards.

rocketsocks
06-06-2015, 12:28
I believe I'd pull a Katz.

johnnybgood
06-06-2015, 13:11
I believe I'd pull a Katz.

The stolen Shoelaces if I remember.

Bronk
06-06-2015, 13:41
"You folks mind giving me a little privacy here? I'm trying to use the restroom." "I've had a long day of hiking, would you mind playing somewhere else so I can relax at my campsite?"

As to the other complaints, they got there before you and had just as much right to be there as you did.

rickb
06-06-2015, 13:53
As to the other complaints, they got there before you and had just as much right to be there as you did.

Agreed they have the right.

But it that does not make it right.

What's more, youth leaders should be particularly intune to their impact on others, given they are setting an example for their charges.

Question: Commercial camp groups used to be the pits in the Hundred Mile Wilderness as this scenario was once rather common. Is that still the case?

RockDoc
06-06-2015, 14:44
This is happening more and more, and you won't do much of a hike without running into it now. The problem is not the kids, it's the leaders who don't care about hikers that aren't part of their group. Often these are families who live a few miles from the trail. You can tell they are local from the huge mess of gear they bring, plus dogs, kids, and elaborate smelly food.

The Boy Scouts can be the worst. I arrived at The Place in Damascus after traveling 18 hrs from Seattle, plus a long car ride from BWI. Nobody was there at 7 pm, but gear was strung everywhere like a bomb had gone off. So we claimed the remaining bunks, paid our fees, and got ready to retire. At 8 pm in comes this huge Boy Scout group from Kentucky. The kids were cool, but the leaders were livid that "hikers" had come in while they were out eating pizza. "We reserved the whole place", we were told. Followed by the proclamation "You can't sleep in a room with little boys!", he yelled.
We (three of us in our late 50's) quietly packed up and left for the more welcoming Woodchuck hostel.

My main thought was that the only people indicted for sexual misconduct with youthful Boy Scouts has been Boy Scout Leaders just like this guy from Kentucky.

Scrum
06-06-2015, 15:31
Please, do not be opposed to groups.

Groups just need to have guidelines - for the dummies who can't figure out what basic LNT is....

I feel that the ATC should advise that groups are welcome to stay in camping areas BUT NOT SHELTERS! IMO (although I am a lowly section-hiker), shelters should be reserved for unaffiliated groups of 4 or fewer.

Groups should also be advised to make sure they travel in numbers of 15 or less. (I believe BSA actually states 14??). If they have more than that, they should divide and not camp in the same area. This is specified on the NCT portion of Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore. Note: If they do not have enough adults, too bad! Our Troop had to limit events on a few occasions because we didn't have the adults for a second or third group.

In the White Mountain National Forest, the National Forest Service provides that groups of 6 or more people are supposed to use the AMC Group Notification System for many of the camping sites/shelters along the AT and elsewhere. It is an online registration process that looks to be primarily geared towards avoiding multiple groups show up at the same location, but the available of group space at any location is available for anyone to view. I would probably avoid a site indicating that there was no group space available, even if soloing.

The AMC Group Notification website makes clear that registration is not a reservation. Ever space is on a first-come, first-serve basis. Interestingly, when registering, people are asked if they would like to be contacted about organizing an AMC seminar on LNT. The reservation process is also in place in the Mahoosuc region. http://www.outdoors.org/lodging/campsites/campsites-notification.cfm

Also, in Wilderness Areas no hiking or camping in groups larger than 10 people​.

rocketsocks
06-06-2015, 15:47
The stolen Shoelaces if I remember.
Das da one ;)

FatMan
06-06-2015, 16:47
Rules and etiquette are two different things. I can tell you there are absolutely no enforceable rules regarding shelters here in GA other than rules against squatters. So it is all on a first come basis. But a large group taking over a shelter is definitely bad form and poor etiquette. I work with the maintainer at that shelter as I visit there about 5 times a week. It is about 3.5 miles from my house. As such I do see it is a common problem as many groups hike the 1.5 miles from Gooch Gap over to the shelter and spend the weekend. Most tent however and do not stay in the shelter. When I see a large group in the shelter I do say something but usually get blank stares and a finger when I walk away. But some do listen and appreciate the education.

Regarding privacy, forget it. If you want privacy go for a walk and get off the trail away from all eyes, dig a hole and do your business.

Sorry for your inconvenience but as a hiker you need to be prepared to carry your own shelter for all weather conditions. Shelter space is not always available, especially during the through hike season, or when a large group takes over.

mrcoffeect
06-06-2015, 19:15
I've found that an effective form of crowd control at shelters, is to; through idle conversation let someone or multiple people know that you are just getting over a bad case of super catchy VD or the noro virus. That almost always gives me the shelter to myself. or at least a wide area in the shelter to spread out.:D

4eyedbuzzard
06-06-2015, 19:31
I've found that an effective form of crowd control at shelters, is to; through idle conversation let someone or multiple people know that you are just getting over a bad case of super catchy VD or the noro virus. That almost always gives me the shelter to myself. or at least a wide area in the shelter to spread out.:D

I just let out a sneeze - e e e BOLA !!!

John B
06-06-2015, 20:00
Should have sparked one up. That will usually prompt a group like that to move on. Or get naked. Or both.

I don't care who you are, that's just funny! HA! I damned nearly spilled my beer. HA!

rocketsocks
06-06-2015, 21:22
I just let out a sneeze - e e e BOLA !!!that or a real bad case of Tourette's.

BirdBrain
06-06-2015, 22:19
that or a real bad case of Tourette's.

You guys are why I sleep with earplugs. :p

WalkingStick75
06-07-2015, 08:19
I really do not see the problem here, if the shelter is full.... hike on! Very few places on the AT where you can't get off the trail, out of sight and cold camp. I have taken refuge in a few storms inside the shelters and it was very convenient but I think the AT would be better off without them.

rocketsocks
06-07-2015, 10:18
You guys are why I sleep with earplugs. :pI have been known to cuss in my sleep. :D

Bronk
06-07-2015, 10:56
This is happening more and more, and you won't do much of a hike without running into it now. The problem is not the kids, it's the leaders who don't care about hikers that aren't part of their group. Often these are families who live a few miles from the trail. You can tell they are local from the huge mess of gear they bring, plus dogs, kids, and elaborate smelly food.

The Boy Scouts can be the worst. I arrived at The Place in Damascus after traveling 18 hrs from Seattle, plus a long car ride from BWI. Nobody was there at 7 pm, but gear was strung everywhere like a bomb had gone off. So we claimed the remaining bunks, paid our fees, and got ready to retire. At 8 pm in comes this huge Boy Scout group from Kentucky. The kids were cool, but the leaders were livid that "hikers" had come in while they were out eating pizza. "We reserved the whole place", we were told. Followed by the proclamation "You can't sleep in a room with little boys!", he yelled.
We (three of us in our late 50's) quietly packed up and left for the more welcoming Woodchuck hostel.

My main thought was that the only people indicted for sexual misconduct with youthful Boy Scouts has been Boy Scout Leaders just like this guy from Kentucky.I believe it is against boy scout policy for an adult to sleep in the same room/tent/etc with a child that is not their own child. Which means that boy scout leaders should not expect to be able to use shelters or hostels. I'd question the wisdom of anyone who would take their troop to spend the night in a flophouse anyway. They clearly brought those kids into a situation they could not control. From what I've seen these scout troops show up and think they own the whole area they occupy. I would have held my ground and refused to leave. You had more right to be there than they did given they put themselves into a situation where they couldn't help but violate their own rules.

SouthMark
06-07-2015, 11:02
Duh. A shelter full IS A GROUP.

Praha4
06-07-2015, 11:03
just about every summer AT section hike I've done in north GA, I have run into large church youth groups or Scout groups at AT shelters.... just come to expect it in the summer months. Most of the time they are polite and display a certain amount of maturity, but occasionally I've seen some wild injun behavior too. Personally I hate crowded shelters, and never stay in them. Many of these youth groups seem to view an AT shelter as their own private "clubhouse" or "playhouse" ... with huge gear explosions. It's summer, they probably just got out of school, it's a weekend out in the woods with their friends. My advice to me is avoid the shelter and tent or tarp camp away from the monkeys.

rocketsocks
06-07-2015, 11:16
I believe it is against boy scout policy for an adult to sleep in the same room/tent/etc with a child that is not their own child. Which means that boy scout leaders should not expect to be able to use shelters or hostels. I'd question the wisdom of anyone who would take their troop to spend the night in a flophouse anyway. They clearly brought those kids into a situation they could not control. From what I've seen these scout troops show up and think they own the whole area they occupy. I would have held my ground and refused to leave. You had more right to be there than they did given they put themselves into a situation where they couldn't help but violate their own rules.But for the first come first served rule, I agree with this take entirely. The situation comes up every now and again about kids not sleeping with non-approved adults...which is right, but it is incumbent that the scout leader not put the kids in that situation by bringing them to a place they have no control over....scouts should sleep in tents anyway, isn't that part of the fun of camping out, always was for me? I think it's the leaders who may not want to sleep in a tent. Now as far a church groups...well, it's be discussed.

Bronk
06-07-2015, 12:41
Generally speaking, aside from the above example of a boy scout troop trying to impose their rules upon people not a part of their group, I'm not sure I understand why some feel that groups have less right (or etiquette) to use shelters or camping areas. When 10 thruhikers show up at a shelter is that not a group? Many of them travel together for extended periods of time and move and function like any church group or boy scout troop. Two days before Trail Days I encountered a group of more than 30 thruhikers who were flip flopping into Damascus for Trail Days. I think you just have to accept the fact that some times are going to be more crowded than others, and that the more people you get into one area the more commotion there is going to be...and if you don't like it you can keep walking. I've hiked all day in the rain and all night in the dark...and if you're on a long distance hike you should expect to do that once in awhile. Sometimes its just better to move on. To give a perfect example...when I was in college we had this really nice gazebo on campus by a huge lake...I stopped there to eat lunch one day and was seated at a picnic table when all of the sudden a bus pulled up and 60 kindergartners filed out and the teacher brought them into the gazebo and sat them all down and pretty much just looked at me like I wasn't supposed to be there. I picked up the remainder of my lunch and left. It was a crappy deal, but what else was I supposed to do? Sit there amongst her class and finish my lunch? Ask them to leave? Yep, I was there first, but their sheer numbers forced me out. Sometimes that's just life.

rocketsocks
06-07-2015, 13:18
Generally speaking, aside from the above example of a boy scout troop trying to impose their rules upon people not a part of their group, I'm not sure I understand why some feel that groups have less right (or etiquette) to use shelters or camping areas. When 10 thruhikers show up at a shelter is that not a group? Many of them travel together for extended periods of time and move and function like any church group or boy scout troop. Two days before Trail Days I encountered a group of more than 30 thruhikers who were flip flopping into Damascus for Trail Days. I think you just have to accept the fact that some times are going to be more crowded than others, and that the more people you get into one area the more commotion there is going to be...and if you don't like it you can keep walking. I've hiked all day in the rain and all night in the dark...and if you're on a long distance hike you should expect to do that once in awhile. Sometimes its just better to move on. To give a perfect example...when I was in college we had this really nice gazebo on campus by a huge lake...I stopped there to eat lunch one day and was seated at a picnic table when all of the sudden a bus pulled up and 60 kindergartners filed out and the teacher brought them into the gazebo and sat them all down and pretty much just looked at me like I wasn't supposed to be there. I picked up the remainder of my lunch and left. It was a crappy deal, but what else was I supposed to do? Sit there amongst her class and finish my lunch? Ask them to leave? Yep, I was there first, but their sheer numbers forced me out. Sometimes that's just life.It absolutely is, always been my contention as well, and it's organized w/ kick off party, fed along the way and revered in the end. Sometimes we're our own worst enemy in the things we do.

BirdBrain
06-07-2015, 14:19
I have been known to cuss in my sleep. :D

I do worse. I steal blankets. However, since I am sleeping alone and wearing earplugs, I don't foresee any problems.

Harrison Bergeron
06-07-2015, 17:12
What's etiquette got to do with it?? OP, you're just bitchin' because you wanted to use the shelter and somebody else got there first. This is why you carry a tent.

If the storm had been a serious threat to your safety, then as a fellow human being (not a mere thru hiker), you have a right to be welcomed into the safety of that publicly-provided shelter even if the people that got there first are stacked like cord wood. You don't even need to ask, you just find a spot to stand until the danger is passed. Then you leave and set up your tent elsewhere.

But you have no claim whatsoever on space in that shelter just for your own convenience. It's first come first served, and the fact that you're hiking 2150 miles instead of 5 is about as relevant as your shoe size. Personally, I'd rather see the space used by a bunch of kids, anyway, if that's what it takes to get them away from their damned video games for a weekend.

Drybones
06-07-2015, 17:13
No whining!

Lone Wolf
06-07-2015, 17:15
What's etiquette got to do with it?? OP, you're just bitchin' because you wanted to use the shelter and somebody else got there first. This is why you carry a tent.

If the storm had been a serious threat to your safety, then as a fellow human being (not a mere thru hiker), you have a right to be welcomed into the safety of that publicly-provided shelter even if the people that got there first are stacked like cord wood. You don't even need to ask, you just find a spot to stand until the danger is passed. Then you leave and set up your tent elsewhere.

But you have no claim whatsoever on space in that shelter just for your own convenience. It's first come first served, and the fact that you're hiking 2150 miles instead of 5 is about as relevant as your shoe size. Personally, I'd rather see the space used by a bunch of kids, anyway, if that's what it takes to get them away from their damned video games for a weekend.

awesome :)

thecyclops
06-08-2015, 09:32
What's etiquette got to do with it?? OP, you're just bitchin' because you wanted to use the shelter and somebody else got there first. This is why you carry a tent.

If the storm had been a serious threat to your safety, then as a fellow human being (not a mere thru hiker), you have a right to be welcomed into the safety of that publicly-provided shelter even if the people that got there first are stacked like cord wood. You don't even need to ask, you just find a spot to stand until the danger is passed. Then you leave and set up your tent elsewhere.

But you have no claim whatsoever on space in that shelter just for your own convenience. It's first come first served, and the fact that you're hiking 2150 miles instead of 5 is about as relevant as your shoe size. Personally, I'd rather see the space used by a bunch of kids, anyway, if that's what it takes to get them away from their damned video games for a weekend.

1st I was not bitching...well about the heathens running around,but kids are kids...
2nd,suck on this
"Hikers may occupy them on a first-come, first-served basis until the shelter is full. They are intended for individual hikers, not big groups. If you're planning a group hike, plan to camp out or to yield space to individual hikers who may not have the resources you do."

thecyclops
06-08-2015, 09:35
That^^^^ is from the ATC website.Not only was it a big group,the took almost 2 zero days there...Again,not bitching,just figuring out how this stuff works.I can see from the responses that many here are smarta$$es and many dont care for"rules"....But whatev's.

BirdBrain
06-08-2015, 09:45
That^^^^ is from the ATC website.Not only was it a big group,the took almost 2 zero days there...Again,not bitching,just figuring out how this stuff works.I can see from the responses that many here are smarta$$es and many dont care for"rules"....But whatev's.

Many of the smartasses here are trying to answer the question. You don't like the answer. Be prepared to sleep outside a shelter and the issue goes away. Be prepared for the fact that life is not fair and you can't fix the other guy. It does not matter if the other guy plays by the rules if you are prepared for that reality. The pertinent reality here is that no one has a guaranteed right to shelter space while on the trail. Carry a shelter. Don't be concerned about if someone else is following some convenience rule.

rickb
06-08-2015, 10:06
To my way of thinking, having a very clear understanding of the accepted etiquette, as well as the actual rules/regulations along the trail (and knowing the difference) can help one deal with these kinds of situations. Usually, just by rolling with things -- but not always.

Its not bitching to ask about the church group's decisions or even to have an opinion on it.

Edit: In this specific case I think it is OK to bitch a bit, however.

thecyclops
06-08-2015, 10:22
Asking question in regards to the shelter rules,etc,yes I was...
Bitching about the heathens watching me wipe my mudbutt and playing war a foot and a half from my tarp shelter,yes I was...
I was not bitching about the group,but seeing as how the ATC says they were in the wrong,then maybe I should?
Next time they are getting the old "drop a few batteries in their campfire treatment".

Eagle1979
06-08-2015, 10:33
shelters are first come, first served. NOBODY gets preferential treatment. especially thru-hikers


Ahem . . .

On the ATC webpage considering shelters

A typical shelter, sometimes called a “lean-to,” has an overhanging roof, a wooden floor and three walls. It is open to the elements on one side but will usually keep you dry. Most (but not all) are near a creek or spring, and many have a privy nearby. Hikers may occupy them on a first-come, first-served basis until the shelter is full. They are intended for individual hikers, not big groups. If you're planning a group hike, plan to camp out or to yield space to individual hikers who may not have the resources you do.

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hiking/hiking-basics/camping-shelters

SouthMark
06-08-2015, 10:40
...they are intended... not reserved. Big difference.

BirdBrain
06-08-2015, 10:41
Bitch in one hand, prepare in the other. I will take the prepared hand. Bitching about the other guy never remedies the problem. Remedying the problem should be the goal. The problem is fixed if you grasp the fact and are prepared for the fact that you might not have space in a shelter. If that is unacceptable, stay home. Okay... I have beat this one to death. Moving on...

magic_game03
06-08-2015, 10:54
What's etiquette got to do with it?? OP, you're just bitchin' because you wanted to use the shelter and somebody else got there first. This is why you carry a tent.

+1


No whining!

+1


...they are intended... not reserved. Big difference.

+1 (I was just about to point that out. Likewise, it may be the stated general intention of the ATC, but on the flip side it says nothing about groups prohibited.

I got two things to add.
1) Once you go west and do some real hiking, you'll probably never want to stay in a shelter again. Good luck to you if you think shelters are the norm anywhere else besides the AT.

2) I'd rather city folk stick to day hiking and being shelter rats.

wrap89
06-08-2015, 11:16
Personally I would have had a sit down with the chaperons and explain to them about the rules/guidelines and if that didn't help I would have just simply moved on.

perdidochas
06-08-2015, 11:22
The flip side of this, is most adults will be somewhat suspicious of an older adult youth leader, with no kids of their own involved, and rightfully so.

I'm an Assistant Scoutmaster for a Boy Scout Troop (and I have two boys in the troop). We welcome adult youth leaders without kids, albeit we keep an eye out for any kind of grooming behavior (as we do with the adult leaders with boys in the troop).

I will admit, a few years ago, I contemplated getting the kids (and adults) in good enough shape to section hike the AT for a week. After comments on this forum, I don't think I will. I think we will stick to lesser known trails, like the Pinhoti, etc.

perdidochas
06-08-2015, 11:30
This is happening more and more, and you won't do much of a hike without running into it now. The problem is not the kids, it's the leaders who don't care about hikers that aren't part of their group. Often these are families who live a few miles from the trail. You can tell they are local from the huge mess of gear they bring, plus dogs, kids, and elaborate smelly food.

The Boy Scouts can be the worst. I arrived at The Place in Damascus after traveling 18 hrs from Seattle, plus a long car ride from BWI. Nobody was there at 7 pm, but gear was strung everywhere like a bomb had gone off. So we claimed the remaining bunks, paid our fees, and got ready to retire. At 8 pm in comes this huge Boy Scout group from Kentucky. The kids were cool, but the leaders were livid that "hikers" had come in while they were out eating pizza. "We reserved the whole place", we were told. Followed by the proclamation "You can't sleep in a room with little boys!", he yelled.
We (three of us in our late 50's) quietly packed up and left for the more welcoming Woodchuck hostel.

My main thought was that the only people indicted for sexual misconduct with youthful Boy Scouts has been Boy Scout Leaders just like this guy from Kentucky.

Well, BSA has a lot of rules, and one of them is that adults (besides their parents) can't share sleeping quarters with Scouts. (Parents can only share sleeping quarters with their own boys--they can't share a tent with their own son and another Scout).

That said, it sounds like a big miscommunication between whoever runs "The Place" and the Scout leader. He should have made all of that stuff clear.

perdidochas
06-08-2015, 11:32
I believe it is against boy scout policy for an adult to sleep in the same room/tent/etc with a child that is not their own child. Which means that boy scout leaders should not expect to be able to use shelters or hostels. I'd question the wisdom of anyone who would take their troop to spend the night in a flophouse anyway. They clearly brought those kids into a situation they could not control. From what I've seen these scout troops show up and think they own the whole area they occupy. I would have held my ground and refused to leave. You had more right to be there than they did given they put themselves into a situation where they couldn't help but violate their own rules.

As a Scout leader, I can't imagine staying in a hostel with the Scouts. I think we would have found a campground somewhere.

They do have that rule.

tagg
06-08-2015, 12:41
I don't normally stay at shelters, but I stopped at Campbell Shelter just north of McAfee Knob a couple of weeks ago on the first night of a long section hike because it had been a long day and I didn't really want to walk any farther. I got there around 7pm, and there were only 5 other hikers there. I set up my hammock in the vicinity, cooked and ate my dinner, and was just settling down for the evening when a Boy Scout troop from VA Beach showed up. I knew the shelter area was likely to be crowded because of where we were, but thought I had gotten lucky until they showed up close to 8:00. There were over 20 kids and adults in the group, and they (very loudly) went about setting up 5 hammocks and 12 tents. No big deal, I expected it to be crowded. What I did not expect was the behavior of the adults. Three wives/mothers who were along for the trip set up fairly close to my hammock, and yelled/cackled/whined/hollered incessantly from the very minute they arrived. One of the adult males snapped off branches and broke down a small tree in order to clear a space for his tent, and repeatedly hollered to get the kids' attention anytime he needed something. When he needed to talk to Jason (who was set up 100 yards from his tent), no problem...he just screamed "JASON" at the top of his lungs until Jason finally walked over to see what he wanted. Another adult asked me if I had any marijuana when he passed me on my way back from the water source, and when I reminded him that he was with a bunch of kids, he laughed it off and acted like he was joking. He clearly was not. It was one thing after another, and since they had arrived so late, all of the noise and inconsiderate behavior went on LONG past dark. But this is why I carry ear plugs, so I put them in and blissfully fell asleep with the chaos around me.

It was very annoying and I would have certainly felt better had I confronted them, however I knew when I set up my hammock near that shelter that this is what I was signing myself up for. My feeling is this...it would be nice if everyone was courteous and respectful of the people around them, but that isn't how things always go. I don't own that shelter or the trees I was hanging on, and if I didn't like it, I could have packed up my gear and moved on. I didn't think it was right or fair, but getting worked up about it was only going to ruin my night, and I go backpacking to decrease my level of stress - not to add to it. You can't control what other people do, just what you do. If you don't like camping near rude people, then do what I did for the next week and a half - don't camp near people. And for those times that you do need to camp near other people, remember that ear plugs weigh next to nothing. Some people are great, and some people suck. Such is life.

4eyedbuzzard
06-08-2015, 16:13
I'm an Assistant Scoutmaster for a Boy Scout Troop (and I have two boys in the troop). We welcome adult youth leaders without kids, albeit we keep an eye out for any kind of grooming behavior (as we do with the adult leaders with boys in the troop).

I will admit, a few years ago, I contemplated getting the kids (and adults) in good enough shape to section hike the AT for a week. After comments on this forum, I don't think I will. I think we will stick to lesser known trails, like the Pinhoti, etc.You shouldn't let a few mostly anonymous off-the-cuff comments on an internet discussion board dissuade you and your troop from hiking a section of the AT. It would be a great experience for you and your well led and behaved Scouts.

perdidochas
06-08-2015, 16:53
You shouldn't let a few mostly anonymous off-the-cuff comments on an internet discussion board dissuade you and your troop from hiking a section of the AT. It would be a great experience for you and your well led and behaved Scouts.

Well, there are plenty of other trails out there--as a troop we've done a few days on the Pinhoti in the Cheaha area, and a few days in the Sipsey Wilderness--we are working our way to becoming a backpacking troop. I will encourage them to think about hiking the AT on their own.

rickb
06-08-2015, 17:14
Well, there are plenty of other trails out there--as a troop we've done a few days on the Pinhoti in the Cheaha area, and a few days in the Sipsey Wilderness--we are working our way to becoming a backpacking troop. I will encourage them to think about hiking the AT on their own.

Yea, it would really suck for you guys to run into a church group like that at a shelter.

BirdBrain
06-08-2015, 17:45
It would appear from many of the comments that people are not aware of the plight of many a youngster that might be on such an outing. I get the visceral reaction toward church that some have. However, these comments show no compassion for children. Many of these young people come from broken and even violent homes. Many are using gear donated by church members. For many, this is the first time they have ever been taken on a fun adventure. How do I know this? My church runs a camp for these young people every year. We have been raising money and donating gear for the past several weeks to prepare for this year. Be pissed at the adults and their beliefs if you must. But give these kids a break already. Sorry if they don't live up to your standards. I have bit my tongue on several of these posts. It is likely I should have now.

swisscross
06-08-2015, 17:53
Yea, it would really suck for you guys to run into a church group like that at a shelter.

Last trip I did in the Cheaha area, (Skyway, Chinnabee, Pinhoti loop) there was a church group at High Falls and two scout groups at the Nubbins intersection.

Take your boys to the AT. Get to the campsite early and have them quite down after supper and into the evening.
I have no issues with groups using shelters. I do have issues with kids playing war around my gear, being loud and rude.

Majortrauma
06-08-2015, 18:34
I skimmed this and sure enough, it's a pattern, just takes a few idiots to ruin it for all of us. Mutual courtesy and respect go a long way but when the "adults' are idiots, we can't expect anything different from he kids. It's unfortunate that BSA has turned into what it has which is why my boys are not involved in that among other reasons. Same goes for church groups. More often than not it turns into total jackassery.
Removing the shelters is a horrible idea though and certainly not anything anyone is going to take seriously. IF you don't like them don't use them. It's not a moral issue so big deal.

MuddyWaters
06-08-2015, 20:33
BSA rule:

Separate accommodations for adults and Scouts required. When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the tent of an adult other than his or her own parent or guardian. Councils are strongly encouraged to have separate shower and latrine facilities for females. When separate facilities are not available, separate times for male and female use should be scheduled and posted for showers. Likewise, youth and adults must shower at different times.

When travelling as a crew for backpacking, we all slept in the same room . we called up churches and asked for places to stay, always found them. Even crashed a sunday school room once that we didnt have permission to stay at by accident. Mixup.

The intent of the rule is obvious. There is room for common sense. Provide privacy for changing, etc and there is nothing wrong with group sleeping in same room in a church. It doesnt define separate accomodations as having walls between youth and adults. Different sides of a room could be considered the same thing.

The leaders chose poorly to stay at a hostel however with strangers.
They could stay at any church almost by calling and asking.

Fredt4
06-09-2015, 02:01
Shelters are not suitable for groups for a simple reason. If the shelter holds 12 and there's 10 in the group, it's highly probable that 3 or 4 individual hikers will get there first. Therefore they need to plan on camping in tents. (So should anyone else.) As noted previously hikers with children should plan on not staying at shelters for valid reasons. But as noted, it's first come and no reservations excepting a few parks.

squeezebox
06-09-2015, 03:51
That also calls for not holding space for your friends that aren't there yet.

ChuckT
06-09-2015, 05:42
Something that belongs to everybody belongs to nobody. And it's a rare person that is willing to be responsible for something nobody wants.
Groups like the the OP described are far to common on and off the AT. I still have a vivid memory of encountering a Boy Scout troop where one scout was chasing others with a hatchet. Boy Scouts, brrrr!
But the I've been on the AT in the rain and had to "claim" a spot in a shelter to sit down and unpack to move out into the surroundings. I was happy to do that!
Ignorance and obnoxious behavior is all too common.

vamelungeon
06-09-2015, 05:54
There are no "unwritten rules" in life. If you get to the shelter first, you get to stay. Why you would want to stay in one of those things is beyond me though. I'd like to see them removed.

vamelungeon
06-09-2015, 05:58
I think what some are calling "unwritten rules" are actually manners, and as such since about 1960 something they've become more and more rare, to the point that people don't even know what to call them. I get the feeling sometimes when I am polite with young women they think I am flirting with them, and I'm not. That's pretty sad when good manners are confused with flirting, IMHO.

illabelle
06-09-2015, 06:25
It would appear from many of the comments that people are not aware of the plight of many a youngster that might be on such an outing. I get the visceral reaction toward church that some have. However, these comments show no compassion for children. Many of these young people come from broken and even violent homes. Many are using gear donated by church members. For many, this is the first time they have ever been taken on a fun adventure. How do I know this? My church runs a camp for these young people every year. We have been raising money and donating gear for the past several weeks to prepare for this year. Be pissed at the adults and their beliefs if you must. But give these kids a break already. Sorry if they don't live up to your standards. I have bit my tongue on several of these posts. It is likely I should have now.

Good post!

illabelle
06-09-2015, 06:33
I've been biting my tongue a bit too. Just wanted to add that we are the stewards of the backcountry. Sometimes it's prudent to withdraw from a situation (if someone threatens you, for example), but failure to confront bad behavior simply yields territory. While we can't enforce the "rules", we can educate, and we should. With respect, diplomacy, and a calm demeanor, of course.

perdidochas
06-09-2015, 09:15
Yea, it would really suck for you guys to run into a church group like that at a shelter.

Wouldn't matter to us, we would be in our tents or hammocks.

ExNihilo
06-09-2015, 13:28
I must have been blessed with a great troop. in the 90's I went on my first section hike with my Boy Scout troop in the Whites. It was the trip of a lifetime.
Will add that my Scoutmaster had us cleanly avoid shelters all together. Lots of talk of haunta virus even then. I've never been drawn to them.
All that to say, don't avoid the AT because of the rotten eggs. I'm glad my troop didn't

JohnHuth
08-14-2015, 12:16
You can't always expect or get adult leaders, and by turn, their charges to behave as you would like.

When I was an assistant scout master, I took my son's troop over the Kinsmans in the Whites. We all camped separately from other hikers and the 'rule' was to stay out of folks' way, be quiet at sunset, and leave no trace.

On the other hand, when doing a trip with friends in the Wenaha Wilderness in Oregon, I encountered a troop of maybe 40 kids in the alpine zone, where there were clear rules to limit the size of parties to 12. The alpine zone was already thrashed - too many hikers, too much pack-trains - it was sad to see people so oblivious to their surroundings.

Tipi Walter
08-14-2015, 13:13
What's etiquette got to do with it?? OP, you're just bitchin' because you wanted to use the shelter and somebody else got there first. This is why you carry a tent.


This is an old thread but somebody bumped it back up and I noticed the word "etiquette" in relation to the rat-box AT shelters and had to laugh. Hikers who depend on these hepatitis-boxes are probably the same kind of people who dial in a SPOT rescue as soon as a snowflake falls and the temps plunge to 40F. It's the entitlement generation I guess.


Many of the smartasses here are trying to answer the question. You don't like the answer. Be prepared to sleep outside a shelter and the issue goes away. Carry a shelter.

AT backpackers need desperately to spend 10 years backpacker in areas without these shelters and they would sing a different tune. "What shelters??" should be the main thought in your head when you're out backpacking. Have everything on your back to survive rainstorms and thunderstorms and blizzards and arctic cold snaps to -10F.

Somebody needs to write a decent screed against AT shelters and I guess it's up to me:

http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=480560

MAIN POINTS---
** Shelters erase any feel of wilderness . . . a shelter becomes an Interstate highway Rest Area so take the exit along with everyone else.

** What normal man would want to sleep butt-to-butt with other strange men??

** Hikers who sleep in shelters are like urban squatters sleeping under a bridge abutment.

** QUOTE: "The only good thing about these AT carports is they lure in and congregate the idiots whereby I can disperse camp a mile away and avoid the lunacy."

** THIS SUMS IT UP FOR ME:

BOX DEPENDENT
" The shelter residents actually have the gall to say the shelter has rules like no dogs and yet they are wrong as the shelter is a wide open piss tank available to anyone for any activity. If you're dumb enough to use them on your backpacking trip and too lazy to set up your own shelter then you have nothing to say for yourself in defense of your space while in one of these rat boxes. Because once you air a single complaint you are advertising your unwillingness to rely on your own shelter system. You willingly have allowed yourself to be box dependent and this choice negates any indignation you may have with fellow occupants in the same box. You're all in the same boiling pot of sewage and slowly cooking in a rat box induced retardation."


" Once dependent on these mud homes people get prickly as if shelters have rules and they develop a strong sense of entitlement to these open sores. "No dogs! No tents inside! No smoking! No room except for me and my friends!! No noise after 9pm!! Full up, sleep in the rain!!! I was here first!! Here, take a hit! I'm a thruhiker, you're not so make room for me! I've been on the trail for 4 months and will now take your questions! We are high mileage experts, now you may ask your questions! Gotta catch up with my friends Turd Blossom and Semen Tank!!! Did they sign the register???!!"

This was written in January 2015, well before thecyclops original post and is therefore not personally directed at him, actually.

Lone Wolf
08-14-2015, 14:11
:cool:..........................

rickb
08-14-2015, 15:11
Having met my wife at an AT shelter 25 years ago come Labor Day weekend, I think they have some value.

Of course she was smart enough not to sleep there, or any others since.

That trip aside, they still have their place on the AT for those who find value in sharing the company of others, I think. Good place to cook and eat a meal in the rain, too.

As for etiquette at a shelter, all it really comes down to is "don't be a selfish ass". You may not be able to demand that of others, but it is a reasonable expectation.

lemon b
08-14-2015, 15:44
I avoid shelters. However like most with many bag nights I've spent a few nights in shelters. Always in cold and wet weather. Shelter partners vary as do their behavior. Inexperienced hikers usually cause the most stress. My policy has to be open with communication and always will do my best to make everyone comfortable.
Only people I have a real issue with are those who carry no reasonable shelter. I have left a shelter and set up in cold rain for people without shelter before. I've told them good thing many of us have the experience to be prepared because if not you'd be having a dangerously difficult night.

BirdBrain
08-14-2015, 16:01
Go get 'em Tipi. :D Once again you are my hero. I ain't carrying your pack or anything resembling it though. :p

daddytwosticks
08-14-2015, 16:13
Boy, there sure are a lot of posters getting bent out of shape about shelters. If you like them, use them. If not, stay the hell out of them. Is that so difficult to comprehend? The tone of some people's rants are truly amazing and downright scary.

g00gle
08-14-2015, 16:23
If someone could just forward this entire thread (all 89 posts) to GSMNP...

What's a hiker to do if they don't like shelters but have no choice?

There's the bamboozling!

Tipi Walter
08-14-2015, 16:29
Boy, there sure are a lot of posters getting bent out of shape about shelters. If you like them, use them. If not, stay the hell out of them. Is that so difficult to comprehend? The tone of some people's rants are truly amazing and downright scary.

It's called Ridicule and Opinion, the last freedoms available in America. But scary? What's scary are the actual App Trail shelters.

BirdBrain
08-14-2015, 16:37
It's called Ridicule and Opinion, the last freedoms available in America. But scary? What's scary are the actual App Trail shelters.

What is scary is that people would actually fight over the rodent farms. The OP sought a solution. The easiest and most prudent solution is to be prepared to not be in one. If they are not willing to be prepared for that, then they should be prepared to argue with equally unprepared hikers. Unprepared hikers are the scariest thing on the trail.

Another Kevin
08-14-2015, 16:41
Tipi Walter, I think you're being a bit too negative about the shelters. But only a bit.

I'll happily use a shelter if the weather is bad, it seems reasonably free of vermin, and it looks as if I (or my party) have it to myself. If the weather is nice, or the rodents and bugs are out in force, or I'd have to snuggle with strangers, I'll just as happily use the tent I've brought with me. I understand that A-T hikers in most seasons will seldom find that a shelter is unoccupied by both humans and destructive creatures. I wouldn't know. I've slept in an A-T shelter once in the last five years, and that was in subzero temperatures, which do discourage the bugs and rodents just a bit. It also wasn't quite planned. I was interested in the conversation around the fire, got in my sleeping bag for warmth, and woke up the next morning still in the shelter, with my tent pitched out back.

I don't bring a dog into a shelter because I don't have a dog. I don't smoke, in or out of shelters. I don't set up a tent in a shelter because it's not lawful where I hike. If I want a tent to get out of the wind or get out of the bugs, then I don't use the shelter. The noise I make after 9 pm on the trail is typically snoring. Or maybe coughing. And flatulency, of course. But you're not going to hear it, because I don't camp in occupied shelters, and if others join me, I typically move off to my tent. I made an exception a couple of years ago (and not on the A-T) when I got to an unoccupied shelter about thirty seconds ahead of a hellacious thunderstorm, and was joined in the middle of the night by a hammocker whose tarp had been damage by wind-borne debris. He turned out to be simpatico. I've been hiking with that guy a few times since.

Then again, I guess I'm not one of the entitled people "who dial in a SPOT rescue as soon as a snowflake falls and the temps plunge to 40F." I do carry a PLB. I've gone 15 miles on a badly sprained knee (that forced me off trail for the next six weeks) rather than light it. The sprained knee wasn't yet a life-threatening emergency. I also sleep rough in negative single digits F and stay pretty comfortable. (Colder than that, I'd need to buy some better winter gear if I wanted the trip to be fun. I could be safe, but not comfortable, in -20 with my current setup.)

"Shelter? What shelter?" is, however, right up there with "trail? what trail?" in my opinion. About of a third of my hikes involve at least some off-trail travel. Yeah, I carry GPS also. I typically look at it maybe 5-10 times a day, just to cross check and make sure I haven't done something idiotic with my map and compass navigation.

You'll no doubt say that carrying GPS is showing a lack of self-sufficiency - because I've heard you say it. You'd no doubt say that carrying the PLB is irresponsible and leads me to do reckless things, or will tempt me to unnecessary activations. Because I've heard you say that too. And I just heard you reiterate your opinion of shelters (with which I wholeheartedly agree if we're talking about the A-T in a busy season). But I say that all these things are perfectly fine in their place. And I don't believe that I'm ruining your wilderness experience just by having the gadgets in my pack.

Oh, yeah, and shelters are a nice place to keep the log books out of the rain. And no, I've never seen Turd Blossom's name in the register. The lilacs are lovely where the outhouse used to be.

Tipi Walter
08-14-2015, 17:07
Another Kevin makes good points. My GPS experience is zero not because of a need for self-sufficiency but if a map ain't broke don't fix it. Of course I see waypoints and the fascination with these numbers as needless minutiae and newb drooling for backcountry technology. Just carry a good topo 1:24,000 map.

I would carry a personal locator beacon if I thought I was important enough to save or if I thought getting back home to be vital and immediate. Can I crawl to a road? Good enough.

Another Kevin
08-14-2015, 17:27
Another Kevin makes good points. My GPS experience is zero not because of a need for self-sufficiency but if a map ain't broke don't fix it. Of course I see waypoints and the fascination with these numbers as needless minutiae and newb drooling for backcountry technology. Just carry a good topo 1:24,000 map.

I would carry a personal locator beacon if I thought I was important enough to save or if I thought getting back home to be vital and immediate. Can I crawl to a road? Good enough.

I do carry maps (preferably at 1:24000 scale) and use those primarily. But the USGS topos are getting very long in the tooth -so good 1:24000 maps may not actually exist. My GPS is there mostly so that I can update OpenStreetMap with modern trail alignments and facility locations. I've actually seen some of my updates make it onto the USGS web site. For some purposes, they pull from the open source data. On many trips, my GPS is there to make maps, not to subsitute for them. It's a heck of a lot lighter than toting an alidade, a plane table, a chain and a leveling rod.

As far as the PLB goes, I've got friends and family who are going to send The Authorities looking for me if I don't make it back. Whether I want it or not. I carry a PLB because I hope to reduce the time, cost, and risk that the searchers will have to put into finding me. I think I'd really pay for it in the Hereafter if my accident made a rescuer into another victim. In many of the scenarios where I'd envision lighting it, I don't expect to be alive when searchers would get there. I gave the sprained knee example to point out that not every hiker with electronics is the sort that would say, "Good Heavens! We're out of Chardonnay! Call Search and Rescue!"

MuddyWaters
08-14-2015, 19:19
Boy, there sure are a lot of posters getting bent out of shape about shelters. If you like them, use them. If not, stay the hell out of them. Is that so difficult to comprehend? The tone of some people's rants are truly amazing and downright scary.

It may not be the shelters per se, but numbers of people they attract , their LNT ethic, and their level of preparedness to be on trail to start with. Even if you dont stay at them, the nature of the whole trail is affected.

A lot of people would never hike without shelters. This is why some groups choose the AT, fully ignorant of group size restrictions, or worse, willfully ignoring them. Because there is a shelter, and they are afraid to be without it.

Shelter hate is a proxy for everything people dont like about the trail. Crowds, garbage, partying and noise, clueless people, smelly privies, large groups, etc.

Roche
08-14-2015, 19:49
Shelters are simply any type of public housing.

Sarcasm the elf
08-14-2015, 20:10
It's called Ridicule and Opinion, the last freedoms available in America. But scary? What's scary are the actual App Trail shelters.

I would argue that the shelter's aren't necessarily scary, it's the fearless mice, gigantic rats and occasional rattlesnake that inhabit the that are a bit worry some...Well that and I have a good idea of the activities that a minority of people engage in inside the shelters, that alone is enough to give me pause before getting near one. :eek:

I will admit to occasionally setting up my tent inside a shelter in the dead of winter when there a good amount of snow on the ground and I am feeling too lazy to pack down a tent site. Of course there is nobody else around when I do this so it's not bothering anyone.

saltysack
08-17-2015, 14:34
This is an old thread but somebody bumped it back up and I noticed the word "etiquette" in relation to the rat-box AT shelters and had to laugh. Hikers who depend on these hepatitis-boxes are probably the same kind of people who dial in a SPOT rescue as soon as a snowflake falls and the temps plunge to 40F. It's the entitlement generation I guess.



AT backpackers need desperately to spend 10 years backpacker in areas without these shelters and they would sing a different tune. "What shelters??" should be the main thought in your head when you're out backpacking. Have everything on your back to survive rainstorms and thunderstorms and blizzards and arctic cold snaps to -10F.

Somebody needs to write a decent screed against AT shelters and I guess it's up to me:

http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=480560

MAIN POINTS---
** Shelters erase any feel of wilderness . . . a shelter becomes an Interstate highway Rest Area so take the exit along with everyone else.

** What normal man would want to sleep butt-to-butt with other strange men??

** Hikers who sleep in shelters are like urban squatters sleeping under a bridge abutment.

** QUOTE: "The only good thing about these AT carports is they lure in and congregate the idiots whereby I can disperse camp a mile away and avoid the lunacy."

** THIS SUMS IT UP FOR ME:

BOX DEPENDENT
" The shelter residents actually have the gall to say the shelter has rules like no dogs and yet they are wrong as the shelter is a wide open piss tank available to anyone for any activity. If you're dumb enough to use them on your backpacking trip and too lazy to set up your own shelter then you have nothing to say for yourself in defense of your space while in one of these rat boxes. Because once you air a single complaint you are advertising your unwillingness to rely on your own shelter system. You willingly have allowed yourself to be box dependent and this choice negates any indignation you may have with fellow occupants in the same box. You're all in the same boiling pot of sewage and slowly cooking in a rat box induced retardation."


" Once dependent on these mud homes people get prickly as if shelters have rules and they develop a strong sense of entitlement to these open sores. "No dogs! No tents inside! No smoking! No room except for me and my friends!! No noise after 9pm!! Full up, sleep in the rain!!! I was here first!! Here, take a hit! I'm a thruhiker, you're not so make room for me! I've been on the trail for 4 months and will now take your questions! We are high mileage experts, now you may ask your questions! Gotta catch up with my friends Turd Blossom and Semen Tank!!! Did they sign the register???!!"

This was written in January 2015, well before thecyclops original post and is therefore not personally directed at him, actually.

Haaaa this is spot on!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Moosling
08-17-2015, 15:08
We had planned to stay at Overmountain Shelter back in December but it was full of a bunch of partying Teenage locals drinking and smoking weed so we moved on and stealth camped. Kind of disappointing though.

Offshore
08-17-2015, 15:32
This is an old thread but somebody bumped it back up and I noticed the word "etiquette" in relation to the rat-box AT shelters and had to laugh. Hikers who depend on these hepatitis-boxes are probably the same kind of people who dial in a SPOT rescue as soon as a snowflake falls and the temps plunge to 40F. It's the entitlement generation I guess.



AT backpackers need desperately to spend 10 years backpacker in areas without these shelters and they would sing a different tune. "What shelters??" should be the main thought in your head when you're out backpacking. Have everything on your back to survive rainstorms and thunderstorms and blizzards and arctic cold snaps to -10F.

Somebody needs to write a decent screed against AT shelters and I guess it's up to me:

http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=480560

MAIN POINTS---
** Shelters erase any feel of wilderness . . . a shelter becomes an Interstate highway Rest Area so take the exit along with everyone else.

** What normal man would want to sleep butt-to-butt with other strange men??

** Hikers who sleep in shelters are like urban squatters sleeping under a bridge abutment.

** QUOTE: "The only good thing about these AT carports is they lure in and congregate the idiots whereby I can disperse camp a mile away and avoid the lunacy."

** THIS SUMS IT UP FOR ME:

BOX DEPENDENT
" The shelter residents actually have the gall to say the shelter has rules like no dogs and yet they are wrong as the shelter is a wide open piss tank available to anyone for any activity. If you're dumb enough to use them on your backpacking trip and too lazy to set up your own shelter then you have nothing to say for yourself in defense of your space while in one of these rat boxes. Because once you air a single complaint you are advertising your unwillingness to rely on your own shelter system. You willingly have allowed yourself to be box dependent and this choice negates any indignation you may have with fellow occupants in the same box. You're all in the same boiling pot of sewage and slowly cooking in a rat box induced retardation."


" Once dependent on these mud homes people get prickly as if shelters have rules and they develop a strong sense of entitlement to these open sores. "No dogs! No tents inside! No smoking! No room except for me and my friends!! No noise after 9pm!! Full up, sleep in the rain!!! I was here first!! Here, take a hit! I'm a thruhiker, you're not so make room for me! I've been on the trail for 4 months and will now take your questions! We are high mileage experts, now you may ask your questions! Gotta catch up with my friends Turd Blossom and Semen Tank!!! Did they sign the register???!!"

This was written in January 2015, well before thecyclops original post and is therefore not personally directed at him, actually.


It's clear that you don't like shelters but this is sounding a lot like "Get off my lawn!" or "Back in my day...!". Funny to read (occasionally), but not very useful to the OP's question. Like it or not, shelters exist and some people choose to use them. Agree or disagree, its their call. Why not use some of your backpacking experience to benefit newer backpackers by actually answering, instead of ranting at, the question?

ki0eh
08-17-2015, 16:00
In PA, the A.T. has rocks, limited views, the Doyle, and shelters. Many hike it.
The longest trail in PA is Mid State Trail. No shelters, many better views, State College in place of Duncannon, and (effectively) no shelters. Almost no one hikes it. http://www.hike-mst.org

mtnkngxt
08-17-2015, 16:18
Sleeping in shelters isn't something I like to do. I'd much prefer to avoid the hiker version of the Petri dish known as preschool. Get a bunch of unwashed kids touching everything, cooking, and sleeping in close proximity. I'll take my Tarp tent any night regardless of weather except possibly hail or a close proximity heavy frequency lightning.

Hoofit
08-18-2015, 08:29
I' m reminded of the phrase, " No Snivelling"!

The day had started out quite beautifully with some light snow as I headed out from Neels Gap , fifteen pounds lighter after a much needed shakedown and well refreshed with some of Miss Janet's hearty food and a couple of good night's sleep.
By late afternoon the snow had turned to light rain followed by a torrential downpour. However I cared not as I had visions of a shelter along the path and had already decided to rest there for the night rather than set up camp in the rain.
I remember the elation, something that I would experience many times over the following few months, as I rounded the corner and spotted the little shelter down the hill. Ah, at last and I charged on. As I reached the shelter I noticed a couple of pairs of poles and assumed there would be enough space left for a wet, solo hiker like myself. I pulled back the huge tarp and peered in. There were perhaps six or seven in there, somewhat spread out but nonetheless dry.
"Hi, how ya ' doing? Got room for one more?
"Ah, not really, it's pretty full in here......."
I looked back out, heavy rain still lashing the old tarp and then looked back in again....
"You sure, looks like there's room for one more?!"
A hushed silence fell upon the place and as I looked around at the faces, so the faces turned away....
F....ck it I decided and went out to the side of the shelter, pitched my tent in the downpour, cussing under my breath at the lack of comraderie shown by my fellow hikers that cold, wet night.
Once inside my tent and settled, I decided there and then, to NEVER, ever again 'expect' to just show up and have a warm, dry place to hang my hat. After just a few short days, I had already become dependent on others way too much! No more and that's the way it stayed. My new feeling of independence from the shelters carried me along just fine .

Offshore
08-18-2015, 08:55
I' m reminded of the phrase, " No Snivelling"!

The day had started out quite beautifully with some light snow as I headed out from Neels Gap , fifteen pounds lighter after a much needed shakedown and well refreshed with some of Miss Janet's hearty food and a couple of good night's sleep.
By late afternoon the snow had turned to light rain followed by a torrential downpour. However I cared not as I had visions of a shelter along the path and had already decided to rest there for the night rather than set up camp in the rain.
I remember the elation, something that I would experience many times over the following few months, as I rounded the corner and spotted the little shelter down the hill. Ah, at last and I charged on. As I reached the shelter I noticed a couple of pairs of poles and assumed there would be enough space left for a wet, solo hiker like myself. I pulled back the huge tarp and peered in. There were perhaps six or seven in there, somewhat spread out but nonetheless dry.
"Hi, how ya ' doing? Got room for one more?
"Ah, not really, it's pretty full in here......."
I looked back out, heavy rain still lashing the old tarp and then looked back in again....
"You sure, looks like there's room for one more?!"
A hushed silence fell upon the place and as I looked around at the faces, so the faces turned away....
F....ck it I decided and went out to the side of the shelter, pitched my tent in the downpour, cussing under my breath at the lack of comraderie shown by my fellow hikers that cold, wet night.
Once inside my tent and settled, I decided there and then, to NEVER, ever again 'expect' to just show up and have a warm, dry place to hang my hat. After just a few short days, I had already become dependent on others way too much! No more and that's the way it stayed. My new feeling of independence from the shelters carried me along just fine .

Given the right crowd, shelters can be good for the social aspect, but I'll take a tent site in the vicinity rather than the shelter itself unless weather condition are crazy. Given the conditions outside, I would have taken the approach of just walking in and putting my stuff down and letting them rearrange. (Better to ask forgiveness type of situation...) Yes, shelter space is first come first served, but your space entitlement is the footprint of your sleeping pad, and not much else. Still, sounds like it had a good outcome.

Hoofit
08-18-2015, 10:52
Given the right crowd, shelters can be good for the social aspect, but I'll take a tent site in the vicinity rather than the shelter itself unless weather condition are crazy. Given the conditions outside, I would have taken the approach of just walking in and putting my stuff down and letting them rearrange. (Better to ask forgiveness type of situation...) Yes, shelter space is first come first served, but your space entitlement is the footprint of your sleeping pad, and not much else. Still, sounds like it had a good outcome.

Yep, all was fine after a good night's sleep!
I admit to enjoying the looks of the somewhat guilty faces the following morning!
Truth is, for me personally, it's the sounds and smells of the woods that in large part drew me to the trails and that is best appreciated in a tent or under a tarp than in a man-made shelter.

QiWiz
08-19-2015, 16:39
If the lack of space in a shelter messes up your long walk, then you are not prepared for your long walk. Let them have the rodent hotels. Sleeping in your carried shelter is a better option anyways.

+1
In my experience, it's better to move on down/up trail a bit and leave the crowded noisy shelter and shelter area to it's own devices. Maybe grab some water for dinner before you go, or even stop and make sinner before you go. You will sleep better and keep your zen healthy.

rafe
08-19-2015, 19:47
Shelters? Some are nice, some suck, sometimes it's the people in 'em that make them nice or not-nice. At least half the time I'll set up my tent near the shelter rather than stay in it. If I do stay in the shelter, I scout out nearby tent sites anyway. I've been known to leave the shelter, set up and move into my tent in the middle of the night. Sometimes it's the snores that get to me, sometimes it's the skeeters and other wildlife.

Shelter mice are (I believe) less of an issue in the off-season. Shelters near roads are best avoided -- they're used by townie teenagers and folks who haven't learned LNT or woods etiquette. The farther from a road, the safer you are from that sort of nonsense.

jacob_springsteen
08-19-2015, 23:54
I'd like to see the trail clubs start replacing the shelters with just a pavilion type roof on four posts. No wooden floors or walls. Jut have gravel floors. Sort of like the open design overhangs they have been retrofitting on the southern AT shelters, except not connected to a lean-to this time. Maybe more picnic tables placed strategically at tent sites could help too. Ultimately, having a great tent or hammock or bivy or tarp set-up is the default stress-reducer over having to deal with shelter woes.

Traveler
08-20-2015, 07:42
I'd like to see the trail clubs start replacing the shelters with just a pavilion type roof on four posts. No wooden floors or walls. Jut have gravel floors. Sort of like the open design overhangs they have been retrofitting on the southern AT shelters, except not connected to a lean-to this time. Maybe more picnic tables placed strategically at tent sites could help too. Ultimately, having a great tent or hammock or bivy or tarp set-up is the default stress-reducer over having to deal with shelter woes.

Having several years of maintaining trails under my belt, I have come to a few conclusions about shelters. My first thought is, if you believe maintaining clubs of the AT should be doing something different, get involved with the club(s) and help them. If its a good idea you have and would solve problems they are having, I am positive you will be well received.

Picnic tables for some reason bear the brunt of misuse by people who are constantly trying to etch their names into the table with all sorts of things that cut and scratch, burn holes in them through careless or inexperienced use of cooking systems, get food and cooking prep ingredients ground into the table surfaces that form huge colonies of bacteria and attract vermin, and fail to wash properly before sitting at these tables and enable the consumption of their bacteria by others. I once found a family changing diapers on a picnic table who took great offense when I suggested they find a better place to do that. I will never eat at a picnic table again as a result of what I have seen and cleaned up. That said, putting a picnic table at a site less than a mile from the trailhead is not much of an issue. To place one into a back country site many miles in is no easy feat, though small, it takes several people to haul in the lumber to build them, then destroy and haul out the remnants of the old one. My first response to anyone suggesting a picnic table be provided at a given location is to volunteer yourself or company to sponsor a table and maintain it for a while.

Shelters on the other hand serve other functions beyond a convenient lunch stop or party point for the Frat House gang a few months out of the year. They are fixed waypoints used for navigation in forests (not everyone is on a well blazed or worn trail), they are bivouac or meeting points easily found by most so getting spread out is not an issue, and they become kind of the social platform of the trail overall for any number of things from recent news to weather reports. From a maintenance standpoint, they are a common area where people go to perform various things like using a latrine, cooking meals, and other uses that generate trash or debris that has to be cleaned up. I would prefer to have this all in one area than scout around the entire length of trail system for junk.

Shelters also can be life saving. Its not infrequently you hear of people caught in dangerous weather experiencing gear failure and had the luck to make it to a shelter, who credit the structure for their survival. Many on this board have said while they prefer camping outside of shelter areas, they have used them during bad weather and medical issues or injuries that needed to be tended to. I can see the pavilion type of shelter used in places that have a lot of day visitors, but for the back country folks, shelters have functions beyond just a place to stop for a rest.

I've not hiked much of the trail south of VA so I don't know if the shelters there are much different than in the Northeast, but most all the shelters I have seen are lean-to type structures that are closed on three sides and have an open front. Anything less that that will not provide much shelter in a wind driven snow or rain event and in my view would not fill their primary purpose of surviving weather events.

As with many here, I don't care much for shelters but will use them especially in cold weather months when weather turns ugly. I am thankful they are around during those occasions and makes it less onerous to clean up after a relatively few people trash a site in fair weather use.

rafe
08-20-2015, 09:13
IMO, the AT's three-sided lean-to design is the most effective and generally more pleasant to be at. A simple pavilion roof won't protect you from wind-blown rain or snow. Gravel floor wouldn't be fun to sleep on. On the Long Trail they have four-sided cabins (aka camps) which I don't much care for, either. On the western trails they don't do shelters much at all.

There's a huge variability in shelter design, siting, general condition, privies, water, fire rings, picnic tables, etc. My nominal destination is usually a shelter or campsite. Whether to stay there or not, I decide at the last moment. I use the shelter if it feels right, otherwise I'm in my tent. Hike in the off-season in less-traveled AT sections and you're likely to find shelters mostly empty.

Fredt4
08-20-2015, 09:37
Having several years of maintaining trails under my belt, I have come to a few conclusions about shelters. My first thought is, if you believe maintaining clubs of the AT should be doing something different, get involved with the club(s) and help them. If its a good idea you have and would solve problems they are having, I am positive you will be well received.

Picnic tables for some reason bear the brunt of misuse by people who are constantly trying to etch their names into the table with all sorts of things that cut and scratch, burn holes in them through careless or inexperienced use of cooking systems, get food and cooking prep ingredients ground into the table surfaces that form huge colonies of bacteria and attract vermin, and fail to wash properly before sitting at these tables and enable the consumption of their bacteria by others. I once found a family changing diapers on a picnic table who took great offense when I suggested they find a better place to do that. I will never eat at a picnic table again as a result of what I have seen and cleaned up. That said, putting a picnic table at a site less than a mile from the trailhead is not much of an issue. To place one into a back country site many miles in is no easy feat, though small, it takes several people to haul in the lumber to build them, then destroy and haul out the remnants of the old one. My first response to anyone suggesting a picnic table be provided at a given location is to volunteer yourself or company to sponsor a table and maintain it for a while.

Shelters on the other hand serve other functions beyond a convenient lunch stop or party point for the Frat House gang a few months out of the year. They are fixed waypoints used for navigation in forests (not everyone is on a well blazed or worn trail), they are bivouac or meeting points easily found by most so getting spread out is not an issue, and they become kind of the social platform of the trail overall for any number of things from recent news to weather reports. From a maintenance standpoint, they are a common area where people go to perform various things like using a latrine, cooking meals, and other uses that generate trash or debris that has to be cleaned up. I would prefer to have this all in one area than scout around the entire length of trail system for junk.

Shelters also can be life saving. Its not infrequently you hear of people caught in dangerous weather experiencing gear failure and had the luck to make it to a shelter, who credit the structure for their survival. Many on this board have said while they prefer camping outside of shelter areas, they have used them during bad weather and medical issues or injuries that needed to be tended to. I can see the pavilion type of shelter used in places that have a lot of day visitors, but for the back country folks, shelters have functions beyond just a place to stop for a rest.

I've not hiked much of the trail south of VA so I don't know if the shelters there are much different than in the Northeast, but most all the shelters I have seen are lean-to type structures that are closed on three sides and have an open front. Anything less that that will not provide much shelter in a wind driven snow or rain event and in my view would not fill their primary purpose of surviving weather events.

As with many here, I don't care much for shelters but will use them especially in cold weather months when weather turns ugly. I am thankful they are around during those occasions and makes it less onerous to clean up after a relatively few people trash a site in fair weather use.

Excellent insights.

Lnj
08-20-2015, 11:24
I haven't even begun yet, but the shelters feel like it takes away from what I'm trying to do. I do see that I would be grateful for it in weather and injury emergencies, but on a random good day... I believe I will be using it more as a mile marker and move on down the road a bit for sleeping. I want to feel like I am in a controlled version of wilderness, not just choosing to sleep in a dirty place with strangers. Maybe the AT is so well traveled now that it may be impossible to really be "alone" out there, but I like the fantasy world I live in and anyone carrying a needle, please step away from my bubble.:D Please allow me to continue to pretend that I am going to be a tough lady who makes it through the wilderness for about 90 miles. Don't let me see that I am just another heifer in the middle of a cattle drive instead.

2015 Lady Thru-Hiker
08-20-2015, 23:00
All I can say to your statement is wow!

Sarcasm the elf
08-20-2015, 23:07
I haven't even begun yet, but the shelters feel like it takes away from what I'm trying to do. I do see that I would be grateful for it in weather and injury emergencies, but on a random good day... I believe I will be using it more as a mile marker and move on down the road a bit for sleeping. I want to feel like I am in a controlled version of wilderness, not just choosing to sleep in a dirty place with strangers. Maybe the AT is so well traveled now that it may be impossible to really be "alone" out there, but I like the fantasy world I live in and anyone carrying a needle, please step away from my bubble.:D Please allow me to continue to pretend that I am going to be a tough lady who makes it through the wilderness for about 90 miles. Don't let me see that I am just another heifer in the middle of a cattle drive instead.

The A.T. isn't wilderness. But it is tough, you've got that part right. Once you get on the trail and away from internet posters you will find that the shelters don't take away much of anything, they're mostly just a stack of logs or rough cut boards off of a side trail.

The A.T. is wilderness light and it has been since it was created. It's awesome for what it is, no need to imagine that it's something else... As for "wilderness" there are plenty of places where you can travel off trail once you are sufficiently experienced. Real East coast wilderness is savage and spectacular, it's something to be experienced, but get plenty of time on a more forgiving trail under your belt before you try it.

rafe
08-20-2015, 23:17
Lnj, I don't know where you're getting your info about the AT. I've been on and about the AT for some 40 years now, never seen anyone with a needle. Smokeables, for sure. Needles, never.

Yes, you will meet "strangers." That's part of the adventure. 99% of the folks you meet on the trail are good folks. If they have long hair, dirty clothes, beards and/or smell bad, that's par for the course.

rocketsocks
08-21-2015, 00:03
Lnj, I don't know where you're getting your info about the AT. I've been on and about the AT for some 40 years now, never seen anyone with a needle. Smokeables, for sure. Needles, never.

Yes, you will meet "strangers." That's part of the adventure. 99% of the folks you meet on the trail are good folks. If they have long hair, dirty clothes, beards and/or smell bad, that's par for the course.Yes, I carry a concealed needle, and I'm very thankful I've never had to use, but I'm well prepared if I have too, ugly as that would be. It's a cruel world out there.

Sarcasm the elf
08-21-2015, 06:45
Yes, I carry a concealed needle, and I'm very thankful I've never had to use, but I'm well prepared if I have too, ugly as that would be. It's a cruel world out there.

I too carry a sewing needle, but I don't think that's the kind of needle they were talking about.

Traveler
08-21-2015, 06:53
On the issue of strangers.... As an Aesop pointed out in his fable, you will likely find the same type of people you expect to find. Change your expectations and you will find different types of people.

"People are strange when you're a stranger, faces look ugly when you're alone" Jim Morrison
"L'enfer, c'est les autres" (Hell is other people) JP Sartre
"There are no strangers here, only friends you haven't met yet" Yeats

MuddyWaters
08-21-2015, 06:55
Maybe the AT is so well traveled now that it may be impossible to really be "alone" out there, but I like the fantasy world I live in and anyone carrying a needle, please step away from my bubble.:D .

Needle would seem to be a figurative one.

rickb
08-21-2015, 07:38
On the issue of strangers.... As an Aesop pointed out in his fable, you will likely find the same type of people you expect to find. Change your expectations and you will find different types of people.

Agreed to a point.

That said, I expect many of us have been far more accommodating to oddballs (for lack of a better word) on the Trail and at shelters than we migh have otherwise been in another environment.

Why? Because after a while those shelters become like home and we adopt a more tolerant attitude because everyone is an oddball, really - or you are just too tired to deal with it. I can think of more than a couple times when a common sense would have had me push on rather than accept the situation as it were.

It is also important to remember, that the mix of people (and numbers of them) changes rather dramatically in the off season-- those times of year where you might actually end up sharing a shelter with just one other person.
This is particularly true outside of the marquis areas along the AT.

Seldom do you see he context of a person's stay in these discussions. Big difference between a Nobo's experience and that af a lagging Southbounder.

You also never see comments that while violence along the trail remains rare (though not as rare as some believe, IMHO), most of it has either happened at a shelter, or (to a lesser extent) followed an interaction between victim and criminal at one. That is a simple fact-- in most cases those rare tragedies did not begin with someone jumping out behind a tree along the pathway but rather at a shelter.

So yes, expect the best-- but be smart. Especially if you are hiking off season in a less popular area either by yourself, or asart of a M/F couple.

rafe
08-21-2015, 09:03
We've drifted far from the OP's specific concern, that's partly my fault. I was reacting to Lnj's concern about sleeping with strangers and having her bubble burst. I probably took the needle reference wrong. Liked what Elf and AT Traveler had to say.

RickB brings up rightful concerns I suppose. As an adult male I've been privileged to mostly ignore them.

Lnj
08-21-2015, 11:44
All I can say to your statement is wow!
2015 Lady Thru Hiker - Sorry if you took offense. I speak more joke than seriousness. I didn't mean any harm. I just laugh at myself often. It's my form of humor. That and sarcasm. Please forgive.

Lnj
08-21-2015, 11:49
The A.T. isn't wilderness. But it is tough, you've got that part right. Once you get on the trail and away from internet posters you will find that the shelters don't take away much of anything, they're mostly just a stack of logs or rough cut boards off of a side trail.

The A.T. is wilderness light and it has been since it was created. It's awesome for what it is, no need to imagine that it's something else... As for "wilderness" there are plenty of places where you can travel off trail once you are sufficiently experienced. Real East coast wilderness is savage and spectacular, it's something to be experienced, but get plenty of time on a more forgiving trail under your belt before you try it.

Sarcasm Elf - Agreed. I was just saying that, TO ME, suburbanite extraordinaire, the AT will be wilderness. When I have enough miles and years under by belt and I feel it isn't anymore, then I will head "off-road". I am not trying to run before I crawl. I am actually just really looking forward to the crawl. :sun

Lnj
08-21-2015, 11:53
Lnj, I don't know where you're getting your info about the AT. I've been on and about the AT for some 40 years now, never seen anyone with a needle. Smokeables, for sure. Needles, never.

Yes, you will meet "strangers." That's part of the adventure. 99% of the folks you meet on the trail are good folks. If they have long hair, dirty clothes, beards and/or smell bad, that's par for the course.


ROTL LOL!!!! It was a figure of speech, in reference to t he fact that I know I am thinking in a fantasy bubble.... as in don't burst my bubble with your needle of reality...???

I am also looking forward to the meeting of other people and hearing of there experiences and such. I just don't want to be in a campground setting too often with people all around me and certainly not in a shelter. Our family goes camping about once a month and we love it, but I just want this to be a different type of experience, ya know?

Lnj
08-21-2015, 11:59
All, please believe I am not being snooty about meeting other people, but I am a bit shy (in person) and meeting new people and sitting around a campfire or even a shelter and sharing funny and horror stories and enjoying each other's company is one thing, and I'm all for it, but sleeping butt to butt with someone I met 10 minutes ago is altogether different (for me at least).

As far as the dirty and smelling and long hair and beards go.... well... I will be the dirtiest and smelliest of them all. Who can judge a person's cleanliness in this environment? I have long hair as well... but my beard only grows when I forget to tweeze.

BirdBrain
08-21-2015, 12:13
All, please believe I am not being snooty about meeting other people, but I am a bit shy (in person) and meeting new people and sitting around a campfire or even a shelter and sharing funny and horror stories and enjoying each other's company is one thing, and I'm all for it, but sleeping butt to butt with someone I met 10 minutes ago is altogether different (for me at least).

As far as the dirty and smelling and long hair and beards go.... well... I will be the dirtiest and smelliest of them all. Who can judge a person's cleanliness in this environment? I have long hair as well... but my beard only grows when I forget to tweeze.

You will do fine. Embrace the fun. Ignore the noise... on the trail and in here. It is hard. I fail in that advice often.

Gratuitous note: Love the signature. I would add that God WILL, but sometimes it does not line up with our will.

Lnj
08-21-2015, 12:25
You will do fine. Embrace the fun. Ignore the noise... on the trail and in here. It is hard. I fail in that advice often.

Gratuitous note: Love the signature. I would add that God WILL, but sometimes it does not line up with our will.

Thanks BirdBrain. I will do that. Just want to enjoy the conversations and not come off different that I intend.
I agree completely on the God's WILL statement. So we will pray and take off and see what HE has in store for us, KNOWING that it will totally fine, no matter what.

2015 Lady Thru-Hiker
08-22-2015, 12:54
2015 Lady Thru Hiker - Sorry if you took offense. I speak more joke than seriousness. I didn't mean any harm. I just laugh at myself often. It's my form of humor. That and sarcasm. Please forgive.

Lnj - actually I need to apologize to you. My statement was meant to reference Lone Wolf's statement about if A group of individual thru-hikers arrive at a shelter at the same time, they should consider themselves a group and not occupy a shelter. Thought that proclamation was a little harsh. My statement was not intended for you. I apologize for my sloppiness :(


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Wildfang
09-01-2015, 00:42
It's unfortunate that this happened, but experiences like this happen to everyone. Until someone makes official rules and enforces them, nothing is going to change. Whether we agree or disagree with the rule or not.

Traveler
09-01-2015, 08:07
It's unfortunate that this happened, but experiences like this happen to everyone. Until someone makes official rules and enforces them, nothing is going to change. Whether we agree or disagree with the rule or not.

Given the myriad possibilities and potentials of trail life, it is difficult to have a set of rules that covers all possible scenarios. It starts to get real murky with who is supposed to enforce these rules. This is why a social contract, or trail etiquette, is commonly used to filter out most of the issues that come up. There are usually not many problems that cannot be resolved with agreeable people, so the social contract system works pretty well overall. The reality is, if staying the night one should be prepared to be outside the shelter.

If properly equipped it makes little difference who should be in what shelter (though etiquette along with posted rules in most parklands will state groups over a certain size should use group areas). These are the things worked out between people on the trail, when faced with knuckleheads, drunks, or those not well versed in what they are doing, moving on makes a lot of sense versus hashing it out. Knuckleheads and drunks are dangerous by definition, uninitiated are only dangerous inadvertently, all of them are successfully mitigated with a passive approach.

scottpash
01-26-2016, 08:13
It all depends on the Group and the people

I encountered two groups while on the AT on a section hike from Harper's NOBO

1 Group of Scouts at Antietam Shelter who had Great Leadership and Boys that were interested in hiking and talking about it (I was also a Scout Leader for many years , many years ago) They respected other people and asked if I needed room in the shelter, I hammock Camp so I just found a place near the shelter area for some solitude, after the boys all wanted to look at my setup since none have camped in a hammock. :)

I met another Group at Alec Kennedy (Church Group) when I arrived at the shelter garbage and food was everywhere and the group was very loud and did not appear to care about anything or anyone just a total lack of respect for anyone or anything so I just left and put on some more miles
to get to the.campground in Boiling Springs (Not the best place to stay, but it worked out)

A visit from a Bear or other critters was likely with all the food scattered about

So here is my 2 cents on Groups
It all depends on the Group and the leadership

wornoutboots
01-26-2016, 10:34
Go read ATC website.
Groups are not supposed to use shelters.
Just another reason why they should be removed.
That includes groups of section hikers and thru hikers too, they make no exception for them.
But groups of section & thru's normally aren't "together" or at least didn't start together?
Why doesn't the ATC laminate these rules & post them in the shelters? I don't remember seeing this anywhere?

wornoutboots
01-26-2016, 10:39
i consider 30 wannabe thru-hikers starting on the same day, a group. they should stay out of shelters
Now something like this should definitely be posted at the Springer Mtn Shelter along with some common sense rules & named "You're Not Entitled to Anything" & maybe even posted in hostels & shelters every 100-200 miles to remind them :-?

Miel
02-25-2016, 09:58
At the Truro, Mass. youth hostel a few years back (2008 or 09 or 10) there was a bicycle group that came in. They go there every year, but that time my visit coincided with theirs. VERY noisy; did not pay attention to quiet time in the dorms. Did a lousy job of cleaning up after themselves in the kitchen. Took veeeeeeeeeeeerry long showers at a green hostel where water conservation was encouraged.

These were not children but folks well into middle age.

So, two thoughts:

Don't blame kids for being kids - as we see from smartphone use, adults can be as obnoxious (and sometimes threatening life and limb) as teens.

I like that children are getting to see the trail. Maybe one day some of them will have such a respect for the planet, because of this trip, that they will enter professions that will help mitigate climate change. Although I have never done a thru-hike, I've done partial hikes with my child, and I like to think her respect for Earth, and her decision to make in environmental studies, is partially because of this.

Gambit McCrae
02-25-2016, 10:49
off on another shelter rant...

Coin side 1: Every hiker should be prepared to not use the shelters and to know that spring is thru hiker season so watch out for the stampede(over exaggerated)

Coin side 2: Thru hikers are to stay out of shelters south of the Smokies

Coin side 3...Tear down the wood constructed shelters south of the Smokies and put caretakers at the major camp sites in Georgia to babysit the trail during the spring time.

I use the Smokies as a cutoff as to when a large percentage either quit, or grow up.

full conditions
02-25-2016, 11:23
During my '76 thru, I got into the Outerbridge shelter one afternoon and had the place to myself for about and hour and a half. Later in the afternoon a group of girl scouts arrived with two adult leaders. They were surprised and obviously disappointed to see me there (I had already claimed a bunk spot off to one side). They consulted with each other for a few minutes and then came into the shelter to ask me if I would be willing to leave - since they had been counting on having the place to themselves. I pointed out that a.) there was plenty of room for all of us (its a pretty room shelter) and b.) the next decent site north was beyond what I was willing to undertake. They thought about this for a few minutes and gathered up the girls and hiked back down to the highway. Never saw them again. They were a little huffy about my refusal but didnt make a scene over it. But it occurred to me that they truly did not know what to expect and hadnt read any of the ATC's literature about shelter use before hand - could of saved them some trouble.

4eyes
02-28-2016, 19:56
shelters are first come, first served. NOBODY gets preferential treatment. especially thru-hikers
This was my experience. Sometimes it stinks to show up in nasty weather hoping for shelter spot, only to arrive and see that 15 other people had the same idea. If you plan on using shelters exclusively, the trick is to post up in one early. When I was out, usually the shelters in the South would start to fill up around 5pm. There was only one instance where I remember thatI had a shelter all to myself, and very few where there was less than 5 sleeping in. A good shelter is essential, imo.

4eyes
02-28-2016, 19:57
This was my experience. Sometimes it stinks to show up in nasty weather hoping for shelter spot, only to arrive and see that 15 other people had the same idea. If you plan on using shelters exclusively, the trick is to post up in one early. When I was out, usually the shelters in the South would start to fill up around 5pm. There was only one instance where I remember thatI had a shelter all to myself, and very few where there was less than 5 sleeping in. A good shelter is essential, imo.
A good shelter, as in a tent, or tarp, that you carry with you.

George
02-28-2016, 21:58
the katz thing has been mentioned here - (did they skip this in the ATC sanitized movie version) - but in this case it would tend to inconvenience the kids, not the leaders who set up the issue - in this case the church van may have been found with the air out of the tires - if there is no consequences there is no reason for repetition not to occur

Dogwood
02-29-2016, 01:53
This is an old thread but somebody bumped it back up and I noticed the word "etiquette" in relation to the rat-box AT shelters and had to laugh. Hikers who depend on these hepatitis-boxes are probably the same kind of people who dial in a SPOT rescue as soon as a snowflake falls and the temps plunge to 40F. It's the entitlement generation I guess.



AT backpackers need desperately to spend 10 years backpacker in areas without these shelters and they would sing a different tune. "What shelters??" should be the main thought in your head when you're out backpacking. Have everything on your back to survive rainstorms and thunderstorms and blizzards and arctic cold snaps to -10F.

Somebody needs to write a decent screed against AT shelters and I guess it's up to me:

http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=480560

MAIN POINTS---
** Shelters erase any feel of wilderness . . . a shelter becomes an Interstate highway Rest Area so take the exit along with everyone else.

** What normal man would want to sleep butt-to-butt with other strange men??

** Hikers who sleep in shelters are like urban squatters sleeping under a bridge abutment.

** QUOTE: "The only good thing about these AT carports is they lure in and congregate the idiots whereby I can disperse camp a mile away and avoid the lunacy."

** THIS SUMS IT UP FOR ME:

BOX DEPENDENT
" The shelter residents actually have the gall to say the shelter has rules like no dogs and yet they are wrong as the shelter is a wide open piss tank available to anyone for any activity. If you're dumb enough to use them on your backpacking trip and too lazy to set up your own shelter then you have nothing to say for yourself in defense of your space while in one of these rat boxes. Because once you air a single complaint you are advertising your unwillingness to rely on your own shelter system. You willingly have allowed yourself to be box dependent and this choice negates any indignation you may have with fellow occupants in the same box. You're all in the same boiling pot of sewage and slowly cooking in a rat box induced retardation."


" Once dependent on these mud homes people get prickly as if shelters have rules and they develop a strong sense of entitlement to these open sores. "No dogs! No tents inside! No smoking! No room except for me and my friends!! No noise after 9pm!! Full up, sleep in the rain!!! I was here first!! Here, take a hit! I'm a thruhiker, you're not so make room for me! I've been on the trail for 4 months and will now take your questions! We are high mileage experts, now you may ask your questions! Gotta catch up with my friends Turd Blossom and Semen Tank!!! Did they sign the register???!!"

This was written in January 2015, well before thecyclops original post and is therefore not personally directed at him, actually.

OMG, classic anti rat box umm I mean shelter rant.

oliviamariana
03-16-2016, 22:25
I think it's great that they get the kids out there.
Being rained on for a few days would make it a bit of a turn-off, but turning it into a fun trip by playing war? Well, to each their own I guess.
Some of the church people I know seem to like war, so, I guess it fits.

agreed. My sister hates the outdoors and hangs out at the mall with her friends. On the other hand, my dad regularly took me and the dog canoe camping with him and enrolled me in girl scouts as early as he could. the difference in upbringings made a big difference in our personalities and frankly in our achievements later on. As annoying as a group of kids may be, we should think of the irritation as an investment in raising better people. Just my 2 cents though -- what do i know I'm still a young'un!

skater
03-17-2016, 17:30
agreed. My sister hates the outdoors and hangs out at the mall with her friends. On the other hand, my dad regularly took me and the dog canoe camping with him and enrolled me in girl scouts as early as he could. the difference in upbringings made a big difference in our personalities and frankly in our achievements later on. As annoying as a group of kids may be, we should think of the irritation as an investment in raising better people. Just my 2 cents though -- what do i know I'm still a young'un!Well, young 'un, you give me hope for the future.