I taken up running, will it increase my MPD?

[kenp]

Over the previous 6 months I've taken up jogging to help keep fit. I run about 3 miles most days. Can I expect any increase in my miles per day (MPD) while hiking due to the jogging? If so, how will the improvement be manifest? Increased endurance? Going further on ascents between breaks? Faster walking speed?
Has anyone experienced a noticeable improvement in their MPD after improving their fitness in some other area?

[Slo-go'en]

MPD is a function of endurance. Keeping a steady pace up and down hills without taking many breaks allows you to go the farthest. If running helps to improve your endurance, maybe it will be beneficial. Or it could lead to injuries and make it harder to carry a pack long distances. Plus I don't think running tones up quite the same muscles which are used when climbing steep hills.

[Violent Green]

You should see a noticeable improvement since your heart & lungs are in better shape, plus your calves and thighs will have also improved. Most importantly, you are probably more mentally tough since you're a little more used to pushing yourself now. MPD is a function of speed & duration. Both of those should increase all other things being equal.


Ryan

[juma]

I've observed that seasoned marathoners can jump out within a few days to doing 20+ mile days. 3 milers, probably won't be too different from average folk.

[MuddyWaters]

Maybe some, but not necessarily huge. Depends on your previous level of conditioning.

MPD is probably affected more by pack weight, and how many hours per day you hike.

You will enjoy it more because you will be taxed less on uphills, and your legs and tendons may toughen up a bit and not be as prone to injury on downhills.

[kenp]

FYI, I generally do 15+ trail mpd in previous hikes, with a full load, without any sort of preparation... (I tend to walk a lot at work)

[Damn Yankee]

running alone will help with breathing and endurance but carrying a pack the is double what you will be carrying while training will help more with your MPD

[Just Bill]

There are three numbers that matter:
Miles per hour
Hours per day
Miles per day

In long distance hiking the only one that is important is miles per day.
Flat out simple- running improves hiking- but the inverse is not true.

If the goal is total mileage- the proven winner in the long distance world is steady (low) MPH with the highest amount of HPD.
Running will improve your total endurance and make you less prone to injury overall, which will also increase your hiking days per week (less zeros or neros)

How much... it all depends.
Pack weight and pace are the only things that truly seem to help hours per day.
Running can show create a small improvement in your MPH, up to a point. Once you are close to 3.5-4 MPH you "max out" your walking pace.
1/3 is a good goal- try to run 1/3 the distance you plan to hike in a day- at least that's the ratio I have found. Others run more, others less.

You mentioned 3 mile runs and 15+ mile days. To me that means that you are too concerned about your MPH over your HPD. The 3 miles of running are too low relative to your mileage goals or current level of fitness to see a noticeable change. Just keep in mind that your 3 mile run is about the same as a 9 mile hike IMO.

On the plus side- any exercise helps. Period. In doing anything you will eventually be able to do more.
I find Pilates and Yoga to be the best addition to running/walking training. The core strength, stretching and flexibility allow you to move for more hours per day. Simply adding an overloaded pack is a big help too. Scott Williamson was said to have trained with a heavy chain in his pack.

There are some freak exceptions (Jurek, Joey Camps, and a few record breakers) that can RUN.
99% of LD hikers though make it work by walking longer than others, not faster. In fact some walk quite slow. 2 MPH for 16 hours is a 32. 3 MPH for 16 hours is a 48. Pretty damn big miles for such a small MPH number really. The name of the game eventually simply becomes one of endurance. 1/3 runs, flexibility, experience, and pacing yourself to avoid extreme effort (allowing faster recovery) all seem to be common factors.
Weirdly- actually completing a long day seems to make a huge difference, so force a 20, 25, 30 or whatever. For some reason the simple act of "getting one under your belt" opens your mind to the possibility and allows you to repeat the experience more easily in the future.

But keep running!

[MuddyWaters]

Ive observed people hurrying to catch up to others while carrying that 35 lb pack, injure themselves. That can work against you.

The best way is start early, hike late. Start at 430 am, have 5 miles done before eating breakfast somewhere you watch sunrise. Then in the evening, after you eat dinner, hike another 5 miles before camping for the night. You will likely be doing 20-25 mile days this way, even with breaks during day too. In easy flat terrain, you will do 30.

[rocketsocks]

Weirdly- actually completing a long day seems to make a huge difference, so force a 20, 25, 30 or whatever. For some reason the simple act of "getting one under your belt" opens your mind to the possibility and allows you to repeat the experience more easily in the future.

But keep running! So true...even for us non competitors.

[Fredt4]

There are three numbers that matter:
Miles per hour
Hours per day
Miles per day

In long distance hiking the only one that is important is miles per day.
Flat out simple- running improves hiking- but the inverse is not true.

If the goal is total mileage- the proven winner in the long distance world is steady (low) MPH with the highest amount of HPD.
Running will improve your total endurance and make you less prone to injury overall, which will also increase your hiking days per week (less zeros or neros)

How much... it all depends.
Pack weight and pace are the only things that truly seem to help hours per day.
Running can show create a small improvement in your MPH, up to a point. Once you are close to 3.5-4 MPH you "max out" your walking pace.
1/3 is a good goal- try to run 1/3 the distance you plan to hike in a day- at least that's the ratio I have found. Others run more, others less.

You mentioned 3 mile runs and 15+ mile days. To me that means that you are too concerned about your MPH over your HPD. The 3 miles of running are too low relative to your mileage goals or current level of fitness to see a noticeable change. Just keep in mind that your 3 mile run is about the same as a 9 mile hike IMO.

On the plus side- any exercise helps. Period. In doing anything you will eventually be able to do more.
I find Pilates and Yoga to be the best addition to running/walking training. The core strength, stretching and flexibility allow you to move for more hours per day. Simply adding an overloaded pack is a big help too. Scott Williamson was said to have trained with a heavy chain in his pack.

There are some freak exceptions (Jurek, Joey Camps, and a few record breakers) that can RUN.
99% of LD hikers though make it work by walking longer than others, not faster. In fact some walk quite slow. 2 MPH for 16 hours is a 32. 3 MPH for 16 hours is a 48. Pretty damn big miles for such a small MPH number really. The name of the game eventually simply becomes one of endurance. 1/3 runs, flexibility, experience, and pacing yourself to avoid extreme effort (allowing faster recovery) all seem to be common factors.
Weirdly- actually completing a long day seems to make a huge difference, so force a 20, 25, 30 or whatever. For some reason the simple act of "getting one under your belt" opens your mind to the possibility and allows you to repeat the experience more easily in the future.

But keep running!

I agree, but this is just a longer version of the tortoise & the hare.

[kenp]

There are three numbers that matter:




You mentioned 3 mile runs and 15+ mile days. To me that means that you are too concerned about your MPH over your HPD. The 3 miles of running are too low relative to your mileage goals or current level of fitness to see a noticeable change. Just keep in mind that your 3 mile run is about the same as a 9 mile hike IMO.


But keep running!

So.. if I target 20mpd, I should be running 7miles? I like your analysis, it gives kind of framework to use while think about the relationship between running & hiking.Thanks

[CarlZ993]

I've found that being in good cardiovascular condition inevitably makes hiking easier. You're able to maintain a given pace longer w/ less effort. You're able to recover quicker when a particularly hard section is completed. But, you have to be careful that you don't go out too fast, too soon. Your pace is really important. I try to maintain a pace that I can handle all day long (if necessary). If you want to crank some miles, start early, minimize your breaks, and hike a long time. My personal fitness routine is running 5 X week (long run of 10M, other runs around 3M) and weight training 2 X week. I try to hike & backpack as much as a I can prior to a major hike.

I kept track of my start time and end times for each day on my AT thru-hike. From that, I was able to determine that my overall 'pace' was 2 mph for the entire AT. Invariably, there were days where I took extended breaks while hiking. Even so, my slowest days were 0.93 mph (Mt. Washington area) & 1.01 mph (Mahoosuc Notch/Arm). My fast day was 2.83 mph in PA (Fayetteville to Pine Grove Furnace State Park; 19M).

Avg start time: 7:08 am. Avg ending time: 3:16 pm. Avg duration: 7:25 hrs
Median start time: 6:57 am. Median ending time: 3:33 pm. Median duration: 8:09 hrs
Earliest start time: 5:11 am. Earliest ending time: 8:50 am. Shortest duration: 2:27 hrs
Latest start time: 12:30 am. Latest ending time: 6:45 pm. Longest duration: 12:26 hrs
152 day thru-hike. 14.4 MPD. 12 zeroes.

[Just Bill]

So.. if I target 20mpd, I should be running 7miles? I like your analysis, it gives kind of framework to use while think about the relationship between running & hiking.Thanks

I personally see running as part of overall training, not a standalone item.
you should hike with a pack as often as possible- moving to an overloaded pack eventually is ideal.
Running as I see it- is a swap. So in the case above- a 7 mile run would replace or substitute for a 20 mile hike.

Keeping things changed up helps eliminate a bit of training boredom, and there isn't always time to set aside a full day to do a long hike.
3-5 "things" a week is a good schedule, mixing running into it is great and provides more benefit than simply hiking alone would.
A straight hike, a loaded hike, and a run is a good cycle.

That said- hiking, running, weights or whatever. Take your time to build up and you'll be healthier long term. A max of 10% per week with one week off every 8 weeks is a good general rule of thumb for any fitness activity. So take your time, don't jump from 3- 7 or 15 to 20MPD overnight.

[Just Bill]

I agree, but this is just a longer version of the tortoise & the hare.

LOL.
Sigh... I keep waiting for troll to add the "Post Long Reply" button to my account. Everytime I press the "Post Quick Reply" button I feel a slight twinge of guilt.
Even sadder, I do try to abbreviate myself when I can. Clearly a skill I have not even gained competency at, let alone mastered.

I'll just have to keep an eye on Pappy and see if I can learn from the master.

[RockDoc]

Running does help hiking, although hiking does not help running.

[Lone Wolf]

although hiking does not help running.

i thru-hiked in 1992. when i finished i went to my friend's place in Bass Harbor, ME and trained for 6 weeks to run a 50 mile ultra. i placed 25th out of 180 runners with a time of 8hrs 47mins. hiking helped my running

[sbhikes]

Weirdly- actually completing a long day seems to make a huge difference, so force a 20, 25, 30 or whatever. For some reason the simple act of "getting one under your belt" opens your mind to the possibility and allows you to repeat the experience more easily in the future.


This is so true. The first time I hit 30 miles hiking the PCT it was more a mental barrier had been broken through, not a physical one. I even used mental trickery on myself to do it. After that, it wasn't such a big deal, although I found that two 30+ mile days in a row left me too tired to adequately recover over night.

Running will help only by increasing your physical fitness. You won't have as long a period of getting your trail legs as if you started hiking fresh off the couch. But if you really want to see some enormous differences, try a progressive strength training program with heavy barbells.

I've been squatting, deadlifting and pressing for 2.5 years now. I'm a woman, 50 years old, 5'3" and 135lbs and on Friday I am going to squat 200lbs. Once I was able to squat more than 135, I saw noticeable differences in my hiking ability. I went to the Sierras on a section hike with absolutely no cardio training beforehand, just the lifting, and I was able to fall in place with the PCT thru-hikers and hike with them, and even faster than a lot of them, for several days. I went up and over the highest passes and barely noticed the altitude. I was flying. I was in better shape than on my thru-hikes. At the end of the day I still had tons of energy leftover and would have done two passes each day had I been hiking by myself. I've never felt so good. Strength is the fountain of youth, I tell you.

[Studlintsean]

I agree with the strength training in addition to running. I run a few 3-5 mile runs per week and have also spent the past few months doing lots of squats, lunges, and leg presses in preparation for a 70 mile section hike that I am leaving for Thursday. Now all I am worried about are my feet as this will be in PA. I am hoping the running without socks and walking barefoot will help a little bit.

[thecyclops]

As a hiker,who started out as a runner and still is,running will drastically improve your hiking skills in every area.
Distance,speed,and most importantly,perceived exertion (Meaning after you get to be a decent distance runner,hiking seems EASYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY)

[Pedaling Fool]

This is so true. The first time I hit 30 miles hiking the PCT it was more a mental barrier had been broken through, not a physical one. I even used mental trickery on myself to do it. After that, it wasn't such a big deal, although I found that two 30+ mile days in a row left me too tired to adequately recover over night.

Running will help only by increasing your physical fitness. You won't have as long a period of getting your trail legs as if you started hiking fresh off the couch. But if you really want to see some enormous differences, try a progressive strength training program with heavy barbells.

I've been squatting, deadlifting and pressing for 2.5 years now. I'm a woman, 50 years old, 5'3" and 135lbs and on Friday I am going to squat 200lbs. Once I was able to squat more than 135, I saw noticeable differences in my hiking ability. I went to the Sierras on a section hike with absolutely no cardio training beforehand, just the lifting, and I was able to fall in place with the PCT thru-hikers and hike with them, and even faster than a lot of them, for several days. I went up and over the highest passes and barely noticed the altitude. I was flying. I was in better shape than on my thru-hikes. At the end of the day I still had tons of energy leftover and would have done two passes each day had I been hiking by myself. I've never felt so good. Strength is the fountain of youth, I tell you.
Great post!

I agree that strength training is the icing on the cake, shouldn't be left out of one's list of things to do to get healthy. And on top of that it has helped me greatly reduce an injury to my knee I sustained as a little kid that still haunts me today.

To the OP, I also run, but I agree with a lot that say just doing your 3-mile runs won't really change much in your 15-mpd hikes. But if you can get that number of miles up you will begin to see a difference in the spring in your step. And you don't want to get into a running routine, such as just doing x-miles per week, rather it's best to mix it up and always setting a goal and many times to attain that goal you have to introduce different types of running, i.e. speed work, tempo runs, fartleks (for fun)... Before you know it, you're hooked.

Also, goals keep you from plateauing. If all you do is run, say 30 miles per week at the same intensity, then before long you will plateau, because the body is good at becoming very efficient at doing one thing, but if that's all you do, then you are training the body to not like change, which is what it doesn't like anyway, but you're enforcing that bad habit. There are times to just do easy workouts, but just as important are those workouts that push you into a zone of discomfort, not a lot, but some discomfort.

Take two people that run 30-MPW and one of them has plateaued and the other uses variety and pushes his performance and that second person will be far more healthy.

However, I would recommend doing some basic strength training before, like what Sbhikes mentioned, because it really does toughen up your connective tissues/bones, which is something you don't want to injure...long recovery time...


P.S. I bet Sbhikes can out squat many of us guys here:);)

[Mr. Bumpy]

I've been squatting, deadlifting and pressing for 2.5 years now. I'm a woman, 50 years old, 5'3" and 135lbs and on Friday I am going to squat 200lbs. Once I was able to squat more than 135, I saw noticeable differences in my hiking ability. I went to the Sierras on a section hike with absolutely no cardio training beforehand

Weightlifting is a cardio workout. If it isn't then lift more :)

[trailblaser]

I found that doing lunges with 10-20 pounds as well as abs which helps to strengthen lower back will help those muscles that are primarily used when hiking

[slbirdnerd]

This has been an interesting thread, thanks to the OP for posting... I am a fairly new runner and while I don't think there is a direct correlation between running and miles-per-day, I'm sure there is an indirect one. I have already noticed I'm just more comfortable hiking at a faster pace for a longer period, plus with the running I have dropped some weight and my pack fits better. As my running mileage increases, I expect my cardio system will become even stronger, resulting in easier climbs/breathing. And, any kind of regular exercise will increase your energy level, so that's probably a boon as well. Happy trails!

[jbwood5]

Running does help hiking, although hiking does not help running.

Actually, if you are an ultra distance runner; especially targeting 100 mile or 100K events, backpacking will greatly improve your ability to complete the event with a lot less problems. I always backpacked for a week or two and finished up about 3 weeks before a hundred miler event.

Here is what I found out:

1. With the weight of the backpack and continuous daily hiking, your legs, and especially your feet are well prepared for 15 to 30 hours of running/jogging/speed walking. You won't tire out very much at the 50 mile or more distance in your event.

2. On my backpack trips, I always lost weight and never totally put it back on before an endurance event. I came back from the hike in super good shape. Even a few pounds less in an endurance event helps a lot.

3. While on my backpack hikes, I learned to live in conditions far out of the comfort zone; hiking occasionally through adverse rainstorms, mud, sweat-in-eyes, bugs, wet shoes, blisters, etc. On a 100 mile run, you usually finish up, eat, shower, and sleep. That is a luxiary in the big picture of things, and not too many runners train for those conditions, but I can guarantee you will experience many discomforts in a 100 mile run. You will be both physically and mentally prepared if you are a backpacker; i.e nothing comes as a shock. It rained in every event for the first 5 100 milers I did, and I loved it.

There are just a couple of things to keep in-mind. Allow about 3 weeks for recovery from an extended backpack hike before your event, and during those 3 weeks, just do light running to allow your body to re-adjust to speed. None of this will work if you don't already have a good running base and training program prior to your hike. You can't expect to be a prolific backpack hiker and suddenly decide you are going to run a 100 miler. I'm sure that is what RockDoc is talking about in his post.

John Wood

[Malto]

Running will definitely help as will any physical activity that gets you in better overall shape. A 15 mile day isn't all that tough to do. It doesn't require particularly long days or high speed. Let me build on Bill's "get one under the belt comment." I firmly believe this is the single biggest enabler to being able to hit a particular distance speed etc. I remember the first thirty mile day I did, could hardly walk the next day. But that gave me the confidence to know that I could do it and soon it became the new normal. So, keep doing anything to get general fitness but the key is strapping on the pack and giving it a go.

one final thought. Better than running, I have found that high speed incline treadmill routines are much better at keeping in good hiking shape. If you can work up to a 12 degree incline at 4.5 mph then you will not worry about speed or endurance. YMMV

[Just Bill]

I can also attest- Malto is in fantastic shape, and based upon the bit of incline treadmill work I did- he's right on.

I can further attest- regarding the mental barriers-
Breaking the barrier and establishing a new normal is so powerful that;

When real life rears it's head and you find yourself with a second child and stuck behind a desk nearly every day for 18 months, swilling beer, sewing gear instead of using it, yapping on a hiking site giving fitness advice but generally just getting fat...

That somehow someway you can still do a 42 mile day on a whim even though you have absolutely no business doing one...
Although you may need to call your wife for a pickup on the second day:o.

I do love my children though and I really hope people want to buy light, cheap well made quilts :).

[fiddlehead]

I believe it is wise to train for ultras by long distance hiking.
Pick it up to attempt a few 40-50 mile days on you hike, and you'll be passing a lot of folks near the end of a long race.
But, to try to prove it the opposite way, (whether running helps your hiking endurance), I have some doubts.
Although it certainly won't hurt your MPD.