View Full Version : Hazel creek closures due to bear incident
This came down early this afternoon....
Park Closes Several Trails and Backcountry Sites Due to Bear Incident
Great Smoky Mountains National Park officials have closed several trails and backcountry campsites in the Hazel Creek section of the park due to a bear incident occurring at approximately 10:30 p.m. on June 6. A 16-year old male from Ohio was pulled from his hammock by a bear and injured at backcountry campsite 84 which is 4.5 miles from the Fontana Lake shoreline near Hazel Creek in NC. The father was able to drive the bear off from the area.
Immediately following the incident, the young man and his father hiked to the lakeshore where they were transported across the lake to Cable Cove boat dock by campers at backcountry campsite 86 who had a boat. Graham County Rescue EMS transported them to a landing zone where the injured party was flown by Mountain Area Medical Airlift (MAMA) to Mission Hospital in Asheville, NC at approximately 3:00 a.m. this morning.
The young man received multiple injuries including lacerations to the head. He remained conscious throughout the incident and is in stable condition at this time.
Park rangers and wildlife biologists are responding to the backcountry campsite area to investigate the scene and to clear the area of other campers. Hazel Creek Trail, Jenkins Ridge Trail, Bone Valley Trail, Cold Spring Gap Trail and backcountry campsites 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, and 88 are closed until further notice. Derrick Knob shelter along the Appalachian Trail has also been closed to camping until officials can determine whether recent bear activity at the shelter may also be related to the same bear.
“While incidents with bears are rare, we ask park visitors to take necessary precautions while hiking in bear country and comply with all backcountry closures,” said Superintendent Cassius Cash. “The safety of our visitors is our number one priority.”
The father and son were on a multi-day backpacking trip in the Smokies. Both campers were sleeping in hammocks approximately 10 feet apart and had all equipment, food, and packs properly stored on aerial food storage cables.
For more information on what to do if you encounter a bear while hiking, please visit the park website at http://www.nps.gov/grsm/naturescience/black-bears.htm. To report a bear incident, please call 865-436-1230 (tel:865-436-1230).
Yikes!
I'd heard hammock = bear burrito. As a newbie hanger, I sure hope this is a rare occurence...
Lone Wolf
06-07-2015, 17:05
Yikes!
I'd heard hammock = bear burrito. As a newbie hanger, I sure hope this is a rare occurence...
it's the smokys. no predators or hunting. they need to be thinned out
Yeah.....
im kinda leaning that way as well...
it will just get worse as the years go by....
Walkintom
06-07-2015, 17:56
In the Porcupine Wilderness, a couple of hours away from us in the UP, they allow bear hunting.
Bears that go, "Hey, what's that you got there?" don't last too long. Being afraid of humans is a survival trait.
This is a case where hunting really helps because it helps keep the wildlife wild.
i ran into several bears a few years ago in that vicinity a few years ago...
daddytwosticks
06-07-2015, 18:35
it's the smokys. no predators or hunting. they need to be thinned out
...who needs thinning out? The bears or the hikers? :)
In the Porcupine Wilderness, a couple of hours away from us in the UP, they allow bear hunting.
Bears that go, "Hey, what's that you got there?" don't last too long. Being afraid of humans is a survival trait.
This is a case where hunting really helps because it helps keep the wildlife wild.
This happened in a national park where rules are different than wilderness areas......
imscotty
06-07-2015, 21:08
Wow, that is an aggressive bear. Sounds like dad and son did everything right. I'm with lone Wolf, a little hunting would instill a healthy dose of fear in those GSMNP bears.
Wow, that is an aggressive bear. Sounds like dad and son did everything right. I'm with lone Wolf, a little hunting would instill a healthy dose of fear in those GSMNP bears.
When I was a kid living in the area there was plenty of illegal hunting in the Park. But that stuff has been mostly stopped in GSMNP these days. Legal hunting is just not going to happen there. I agree with Lone Wolf though that they should be thinned out.
...who needs thinning out? The bears or the hikers? :)
i know you say this in (somewhat) jest, but both need to be thinned out..........
more hikers with bad food storage practices contribute to the bear problem.........
especially, in this area where one can use a cart to carry in as much food as they want......
few years ago, two fishermen were out for one night, and had 3 dozen eggs and 3 pounds of bacon..........
few years ago, two fishermen were out for one night, and had 3 dozen eggs and 3 pounds of bacon..........
I understand anticipation is sometimes a part of story telling, but what's the punchline?
punchline-----thats alot of food for two people one night.......
adds to the problems with bears...............
RADHiker
06-07-2015, 22:33
The thought that this bear went after the boy is terrifying. Tent or hammock, the bear knew what he wanted and tried to take it. Last summer at Siler Bald shelter, we hung near the shelter. a bear foraged maybe 100 ft away. It was pitch black. You couldn't see your hand in front of your face. That, too, was unnerving and scarier than I'd care to admit. Having a light handy didn't offer much comfort since it was a single beam.
Anyone have tips for overcoming this one other than lie there and try to sleep through it?
rocketsocks
06-07-2015, 22:43
The thought that this bear went after the boy is terrifying. Tent or hammock, the bear knew what he wanted and tried to take it. Last summer at Siler Bald shelter, we hung near the shelter. a bear foraged maybe 100 ft away. It was pitch black. You couldn't see your hand in front of your face. That, too, was unnerving and scarier than I'd care to admit. Having a light handy didn't offer much comfort since it was a single beam.
Anyone have tips for overcoming this one other than lie there and try to sleep through it?I think having a light handy is a good thing...that way I wouldn't step in my own poo. :D
https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/animals-camping-camper-breakfast-cooked_breakfast-bear-awhn81_low.jpg
Camp bears are the worst of the lot. I've run into a couple of persistent ones, over the years, in the park. It doesn't really matter if you do everything right, this type of bear has scored from previous visitors who maybe weren't doing things right.
TNshadetree
06-08-2015, 09:15
Maybe this will serve as a wake up call to all the people I see posting here that sleep with their food.
BirdBrain
06-08-2015, 09:35
Maybe this will serve as a wake up call to all the people I see posting here that sleep with their food.
As an advocate for hanging food, let me be the one to point out that they did hang their food. It did not help. This is not a hang or sleep with issue. LW is correct. They need to be hunted. Hunting will fix that problem. Maine has an estimated population of 25,000 bears (last I looked). We have zero bear problems. Our bears are scared of us. Hunting is not whiping them out. "Friendly" bears don't survive in Maine.
Sarcasm the elf
06-08-2015, 09:43
Maybe this will serve as a wake up call to all the people I see posting here that sleep with their food.
It won't since this incident had nothing to do with hikers sleeping with their food.
Ashepabst
06-08-2015, 11:32
i know you say this in (somewhat) jest, but both need to be thinned out..........
more hikers with bad food storage practices contribute to the bear problem.........
especially, in this area where one can use a cart to carry in as much food as they want......
few years ago, two fishermen were out for one night, and had 3 dozen eggs and 3 pounds of bacon..........
Agreed. the problem here is not too many bears. the bears haven't lost their fear of humans because there are too many bears. they've lost it because there are too many irresponsible campers making that connection for them.
the Smokies, unfortunately, receive a glut of amateur and irresponsible hikers and backpackers.
Maine doesn't have bear issues because Maine isn't visited by 10M dumbaces per year, who treat their local national park like a petting zoo.
Five Tango
06-08-2015, 12:25
Everybody is welcome to their own opinion but meanwhile I am sitting here wondering why hikers/campers have to be at prescribed government approved campsites rather than sleep where they want to while in the GSMNP?
TNshadetree
06-08-2015, 12:37
It won't since this incident had nothing to do with hikers sleeping with their food.
I know this incident didn't involve improper food storage. But it does illustrate how bears aren't deterred by tents.
I just don't understand the mindset of people who encourage others to sleep with their food in the tent with them.
Slo-go'en
06-08-2015, 12:39
Everybody is welcome to their own opinion but meanwhile I am sitting here wondering why hikers/campers have to be at prescribed government approved campsites rather than sleep where they want to while in the GSMNP?
Because someone thought long and hard about where the best place was to put these campsites. Something the average hiker is not capable of doing.
TNshadetree
06-08-2015, 12:40
I am sitting here wondering why hikers/campers have to be at prescribed government approved campsites rather than sleep where they want to while in the GSMNP?
To reduce the impact to vegatation and erosion the huge volume of campers would have.
Everybody is welcome to their own opinion but meanwhile I am sitting here wondering why hikers/campers have to be at prescribed government approved campsites rather than sleep where they want to while in the GSMNP?
It's because they don't want little fire rings everywhere and newb hikers getting manway lost.
BirdBrain
06-08-2015, 12:47
Maine doesn't have bear issues because Maine isn't visited by 10M dumbaces per year, who treat their local national park like a petting zoo.
Regardless of opinion of why Maine does not have an issue, the facts remains that we hunt our bears, we have plenty of them, and they are not an issue. I agree that ignorant people are part of the problem. I just happen to believe hunting is part of a solution. Either way, they would do well to learn from a state with a large bear population that is obviously doing something right.
Slo-go'en
06-08-2015, 13:01
It won't since this incident had nothing to do with hikers sleeping with their food.
Not these particular campers, but it's a safe bet this bear scored food from others in the past. It's possible the kid had food smells on his clothes which attracted the bear. There has to be some reason the bear decided to pull the kid out of the hammock. Maybe it was just curious as to what the heck was hanging from the tree?
I don't really buy the "hunting makes bears afraid of humans" argument. If someone shoots a bear, how does another bear a mile away know that? Every bear would have to be shot at and know it was shot at and that being shot at could kill it. Hunting can thin the herd as it were, but I doubt even where bear hunting is allowed it puts much of a dent into the bear population.
BirdBrain
06-08-2015, 13:07
Not these particular campers, but it's a safe bet this bear scored food from others in the past. It's possible the kid had food smells on his clothes which attracted the bear. There has to be some reason the bear decided to pull the kid out of the hammock. Maybe it was just curious as to what the heck was hanging from the tree?
I don't really buy the "hunting makes bears afraid of humans" argument. If someone shoots a bear, how does another bear a mile away know that? Every bear would have to be shot at and know it was shot at and that being shot at could kill it. Hunting can thin the herd as it were, but I doubt even where bear hunting is allowed it puts much of a dent into the bear population.
It isn't that a bear meeting is held and bears discuss the new danger. It is just that the stupid or aggressive or visible bears get shot. Again, we have a slug of bears in Maine. When was the last time you ever heard of an AT hiker even seeing a bear in Maine. It isn't because they are rare.
T.S.Kobzol
06-08-2015, 13:19
Bears are smart and learn quick.
Momma bear gets shot and baby bears are there = fear of humans
Bears are at a feeder and one gets shot = fear of humans
Bear gets close to a person and gets shot/injured = fear of humans
Bear sees another bear scared of human = observe and learn
Every one of these experiences connect sound of a gun and a sight of a human in their survival senses
late night snack........
I wonder if it is a hammock thing more than a tent problem.......
sure hope the kid is ok...I know many of us have been guilty of hanging a food bag, only to keep a candy snack with us for late night munching.
Jus sayin', bears do have a very high sense of smell.
Sarcasm the elf
06-08-2015, 13:46
Not these particular campers, but it's a safe bet this bear scored food from others in the past. It's possible the kid had food smells on his clothes which attracted the bear. There has to be some reason the bear decided to pull the kid out of the hammock. Maybe it was just curious as to what the heck was hanging from the tree?
I fully expect that humans played a large role in causing this bear to become habituated, however it is unlikely that the "sleep with your food" crowd here has anything to do with it. The people here who advocate sleeping with there food do so by keeping a clean camp, not littering, and by keeping there food attended at all times. Whether or not you agree with this method, it has been practiced for centuries and has a very high rate of effectiveness.
On the other hand, national parks are innundated by tourists and novice campers who either don't know or don't care about LNT and proper food storage. People commonly do things such as leaving unattended food in unsecured coolers, leaving food out on a picnic table and walking away, and even approaching and purposely feeding bears. This sort of behavior is what trains bears to associate people with food and lose their fear of humans.
I don't really buy the "hunting makes bears afraid of humans" argument. If someone shoots a bear, how does another bear a mile away know that? Every bear would have to be shot at and know it was shot at and that being shot at could kill it. Hunting can thin the herd as it were, but I doubt even where bear hunting is allowed it puts much of a dent into the bear population.
Hunting doesn't "teach" bears anything, it gets rid of the occasional problem bear. Bears have a natural fear of humans, which is one of their more important evolutionary traits. A healthy bear will instinctively run away from people unless they have learned to act otherwise. A bear that is bold enough to approach humans is much more likely to become a problem and is also much more likely to be shot by the hunter that it didn't run away from, especially if the habituated bear is known to frequent a specific area that a hunter can focus on.
[EDIT: The comments above meant to be general, obviously follow follow local food storage regulations if in a national park]
I don't really buy the "hunting makes bears afraid of humans" argument. If someone shoots a bear, how does another bear a mile away know that? Every bear would have to be shot at and know it was shot at and that being shot at could kill it. Hunting can thin the herd as it were, but I doubt even where bear hunting is allowed it puts much of a dent into the bear population.
Never heard of the old gun oil trick?
Pedaling Fool
06-08-2015, 14:50
Full Disclosure: I keep my food with me at all times, including in my tent at night.
However, that is not what habituates black bears to human presence. Yes, they can smell my food, just as they can smell food hanging on a bearline/tree limb. However, they do NOT go after my food in my tent, because they also know I'm in there, but as we all know they will go after food left unattended, i.e. all the hikers that have lost food to bears in Georgia and elsewhere.
This incident seem to be a case of a predatory bear attack. Note, that I said "seems", because we simply don't have enough information. These predatory attacks happen from time to time, as in the recent case in NJ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
I don't believe that a habituated black bear would do this, seems like this is strictly a case of predatory instincts, it happens, albeit it's very rare, but it does happen -- they are, after all, predators. However, when talking about what causes a black bear to become habituated to humans, I believe we would all agree that the most egregious act anyone can do is to feed a bear, as in actively feed bears.
However, we all are guilty of habituating bears to human presence, but I don't think in the most egregious way, i.e. actively feeding bears. Rather, we habituate them simply by always being around and at the same time not presenting a danger to them. When they see us hiking thru the woods and see that the vast majority of us are not a threat, then naturally they will lose their fear -- it's only natural. The only remedy to this is to make them fear us, thru things like hunting. But again, I don't think this was a case of a habituated bear, nevertheless, a habituated bear is a problem.
I've had two encounters with habituated bears, one time was while I was cooking dinner and that was probably the scariest, but the first case was one giving me "warning huffs" and pouncing on its front paws and it even tried to walk up on me (photo in my gallery). So the question in my mind is how long until a bear gets up the courage to steal food from you as you're cooking your meal or possibly jump you while you're hiking to get at your food in your pack or even invade your tent.
P.S. If I ever feel uncomfortable keeping my food in my tent, then I'd have to ask: Should I even be hiking with food on my back or sitting on a rock cooking my meal out in the open?
I vote for a bear hunt, not necessarily to reduce numbers, but to let them know we are not a species to steal from, after all, stealing in nature is a perfectly acceptable way to attain your food.
I would think best practice would be to follow the rules while in the GSMNP. Park bears are relocated and euthanized on a somewhat frequent basis because they become habituated to getting high calorie handouts from tourists, from poorly stored food in campgrounds, and from poorly protected trash. Those high calorie foods require pretty low calorie expenditures (compared to foraging) so they start to favor the human food and the mommas start to train their cubs where to find the human goodies. All the while, they don't have the competing stimulus of being chased by hunting dogs and being shot at by humans.
Outside of NPS land, I think you can make a valid case for sleeping with your food. But regardless if you hang it, sleep with it, or can it, you should be ready and willing to defend your food by shouting, throwing rocks, throwing sticks, acting big, bear spray, etc. By keeping a bear from getting your food, you are keeping the bear from associating humans with easy high calorie treats.
Pedaling Fool
06-08-2015, 18:10
I would think best practice would be to follow the rules while in the GSMNP. Park bears are relocated and euthanized on a somewhat frequent basis because they become habituated to getting high calorie handouts from tourists, from poorly stored food in campgrounds, and from poorly protected trash. Those high calorie foods require pretty low calorie expenditures (compared to foraging) so they start to favor the human food and the mommas start to train their cubs where to find the human goodies. All the while, they don't have the competing stimulus of being chased by hunting dogs and being shot at by humans.
Outside of NPS land, I think you can make a valid case for sleeping with your food. But regardless if you hang it, sleep with it, or can it, you should be ready and willing to defend your food by shouting, throwing rocks, throwing sticks, acting big, bear spray, etc. By keeping a bear from getting your food, you are keeping the bear from associating humans with easy high calorie treats.
How often are bears euthanized (SHOT) in GSMNP? I'd like to see an official listing of that. But in the end isn't that the same as hunting, at least the effect? I'm also curious how many hikers get their packs and/or food bags stolen in the Park? From what you've said above, it would seem like much of the bear problems are the fault of the Park itself, as well as front country campers and people just passing thru via the road.
Seems to me, I'm more in compliance, not by the letter of the law, rather the spirit -- I don't allow bears to have my food.
How often are bears euthanized (SHOT) in GSMNP? I'd like to see an official listing of that. But in the end isn't that the same as hunting, at least the effect? I'm also curious how many hikers get their packs and/or food bags stolen in the Park? From what you've said above, it would seem like much of the bear problems are the fault of the Park itself, as well as front country campers and people just passing thru via the road.
Seems to me, I'm more in compliance, not by the letter of the law, rather the spirit -- I don't allow bears to have my food.
They usually put down a few bears a year...
i know the leconte one from a few weeks ago was put down...
and the hazel creek one will be as well....
as for number of packs taken----I would guess dozens or more...
mainly at shelter......Russell field has a bear that takes a bunch and Cosby has the same problem...
and this has been happening for years at the same shelters and closures have resulted......
How often are bears euthanized (SHOT) in GSMNP? I'd like to see an official listing of that. But in the end isn't that the same as hunting, at least the effect? I'm also curious how many hikers get their packs and/or food bags stolen in the Park? From what you've said above, it would seem like much of the bear problems are the fault of the Park itself, as well as front country campers and people just passing thru via the road.
Seems to me, I'm more in compliance, not by the letter of the law, rather the spirit -- I don't allow bears to have my food.
I'm not sure fault can be assessed. Bears stealing food and packs in the park has been happening for years. In 1960 one got a pack out of a tree we had it hung in and bit through 2 cans of Pork and Beans. I knew then I didn't want to get bit by a bear. I'm sure the bears were raiding Indian villages long before any of us or our families got here.
WILLIAM HAYES
06-08-2015, 19:21
They will find this bear and put him down. It appears this was a predatory attack . I agree with lone wolf that the population probably need thinning out. New Jersey had some bear issues several years ago and opened up a limited bear season . There was a fatality I believe in New Jersey last year that involved a student who ran from a bear which triggered a predatory response. By and large though I believe the number of incidents have substantially declined in NJ due to the reduction in the bear population. It may be simply coincidental but I do know where other animals such as deer are hunted they become more elusive and avoid human beings. I wonder what the boys father did to fight off the bear. I am glad the boy is ok.
Pedaling Fool
06-08-2015, 19:22
I'm not sure fault can be assessed. Bears stealing food and packs in the park has been happening for years. In 1960 one got a pack out of a tree we had it hung in and bit through 2 cans of Pork and Beans. I knew then I didn't want to get bit by a bear. I'm sure the bears were raiding Indian villages long before any of us or our families got here.I'm not placing blame, note I said, "...it would seem...".
The fact is, I'd like to see more official info on these incidents, but I'm curious why we don't hear about this as much in other parks, like SNP (is it because we just don't hear about it -- maybe? -- granted GSMNP get more visitors, but still there should be a similar % of incidents).
It does seem there has always been closings of various shelters/campsites in GSMNP for quite some time due to bear problems. How much of these problems are from bears being habituated in the front country? That's why I'd like to see something official and not just these word-of-mouth figures.
I know I saw a documentary once on rangers in GSMNP hanging food for bears, so they could document some information (forget exactly what they were documenting), but that at least factors into bears looking in trees for food, not to mention is gives them a little practice:D
I still say hunting will help, because even if they are doing a few reactionary killings per year, that's nothing like letting hunters get out there and be a force multiplier. However, hunting is not and should not be the only answer. I do think (just a feeling) the Park can improve on its practices. However, like I've said before, no matter how much the park (and/or its visitors) improves on keeping food away from bears, you still got the issue of bears being habituated to humans, thereby losing their fear. They see us all the time and all we do is owww and ahhh when we see them and the only thing we're shooting is our cameras.
Granted it happens much faster when you feed the bear, but over time I believe this will still be an issue. As their numbers increase and food becomes more scarce, then it's only a matter of time when they look at us skinny, helpless, non-threatening humans that carry tons of food on their backs and sits out in the open and cooks up a delicious smelling meal... Hunting, eventually, has to be a part of the solution.
I know this incident didn't involve improper food storage. But it does illustrate how bears aren't deterred by tents.
I just don't understand the mindset of people who encourage others to sleep with their food in the tent with them.
Because sleeping with your food works and attempting to hang your food doesn't. Some sites have bear boxes or cables or poles which are fairly reliable. Hanging your food from a tree isn't reliable and just creates problems. Show me reliable proof that sleeping with your food creates problems before you say it doesn't work. This forum has lots of cites to show food hanging doesn't work.
MuddyWaters
06-08-2015, 21:11
No matter what you do, in areas with high number of humans, and high number of bears, there are going to be occassional encounters.
Reduce the people, or reduce the bears, or simply live with it.
Wilderness, without the wild, isnt.
What we already have is a watered down disney-world like outdoor activity park.
Thats how americans like their outdoors. Safe, watered down, pretend.
How much of these problems are from bears being habituated in the front country
bears are being habituated both in the front country and the back country.......
this area of hazel creek would be considered the back country...........
The fact is, I'd like to see more official info on these incidents, but I'm curious why we don't hear about this as much in other parks, like SNP
i think if it happened in SNP, we would hear about it...
difference is that GSMNP has both larger amounts of people and bears than the SNP.....
also, it helps that the knoxville media has a good working relationship with the Park.........
if they dont push out a press release and we hear about something, we know who to call in the Park..........
The fact is, I'd like to see more official info on these incidents,
i will try to get more info..........
gollwoods
06-09-2015, 01:40
Sorry for the young man and father. What a terribly frightening walk to the end of hazel creek that must have been. I was at site 75 that night there was a good moon and nice temps.
daddytwosticks
06-09-2015, 07:15
We still don't know all the details. However, I do know one dad who should get an extra special gift/attention from a certain teen-aged son this Father's Day :)
Tundracamper
06-09-2015, 08:07
I keep hearing that these campers did everything right. How many hikers in the AT bubble heading north have stayed in this area in the last three months? With the weekend hikers, we're probably talking well over 2,000, right? What was different in this one incident?
I keep hearing that these campers did everything right. How many hikers in the AT bubble heading north have stayed in this area in the last three months? With the weekend hikers, we're probably talking well over 2,000, right? What was different in this one incident?
There is a difference in my opinion. AT hikers are staying on the ridge and camping on higher ground for the most part. These campers were at lower elevation and are more likely to encounter more bears. Bears like the sweet foliage along the Hazel Creek shoreline.
I'm pretty sure bear hunting in GSMNP isn't going to happen anytime soon. Problem bears will be taken care of but, as we all know, going out into the wilderness isn't danger-free. Many, many more hikers have been injured by falls, etc. than by bears.
Pedaling Fool
06-09-2015, 12:58
I'm pretty sure bear hunting in GSMNP isn't going to happen anytime soon. Problem bears will be taken care of but, as we all know, going out into the wilderness isn't danger-free. Many, many more hikers have been injured by falls, etc. than by bears.I agree, don't expect to see bear hunting anytime soon in GSMNP.
But that's ok, I'm kind of curious how far the bears will go; I always look forward to these stories coming out of GSMNP every year:)
HooKooDooKu
06-09-2015, 13:44
Because sleeping with your food works and attempting to hang your food doesn't...
Keep in mind this is the Great Smoky Mountains National Park... and things are a little different that most areas along the AT that people go camping.
1. Camping is only permitted as designated camping spots. So the location of people (and hence their food) is fairly concentrated. It only takes one or two people to allow a bear to gain access to their food in camp and the bear quickly learns that people = food and campsite = people.
2. You don't use the PCT method of hanging your food in GSMNP. Every campsite has bear cables such that if your food is stored properly, it is impossible for the bears to get your food.
(Note, the cables only provide open hooks... I've heard that some bears have learned that if they try to shake the cables they can sometimes get stuff to bounce off the hooks, so you need to bring a small carabiner or something else to allow you to make sure the packs/bag is connected to the loop the hook hangs from rather than rely solely on the provided hooks).
So if nobody ever slept with their food and ALWAYS made sure their food was either in hand or on the bear cables, bears wouldn't learn to link people and campsites with food.
But the reality is that people are NOT that careful with their food. Someone sleeps with it, or leaves it unattended, and some even intentionally feed the wild life.
Bears are a concern. I am a hunter also and think hunting bears will make a bigger difference than maybe many here think. Natural selection is pretty simple in function. Those that exhibit behavior not conducive to passing on their genes (no fear of humans and getting shot) as opposed to those who naturally fear humans (however it was acquired) that do live to pass on their genes and by doing so, much of their behavioral traits, change the general population of the species (micro-evolution). I don't have enough experience to know whether storing food in a tent/hammock vs. in a tree is a better idea but in my reviewing bear attacks, seems a number of them have had the added component of a candy bar or food in the area. I think food causing a bear to become inquisitive, where ever it is stored, is pretty well documented. That being said, last time I was on the AT there was a few nights when I was too tired to hang my stuff though I do keep all of it in oder barrier bags, so I just slept next to a guy who had a dog. I really would like to know more of the specifics on this case as it's pretty ugly, and happy the young man survived.
There is no way I would sleep with my food in GSMNP. That is just asking for trouble.
BirdBrain
06-09-2015, 14:48
There is no way I would sleep with my food in GSMNP. That is just asking for trouble.
But it always always works :p and hanging never ever works. ;) (sarcasm alert)
Sarcasm the elf
06-09-2015, 15:17
But it always always works :p and hanging never ever works. ;) (sarcasm alert)
Hey, leave me out of this! :D
they've caught the bear they think did this........
we will know more later..........
. Every campsite has bear cables such that if your food is stored properly, it is impossible for the bears to get your food.
that's not exactly true----along with the shaking the cables (heard some bears do it one night i was out), the bears have also learned to walk the cables and get at bags.....
cataloochee has or had some pictures of bears doing this...
granted----its really rare and the cables are still the safest/best way to store food in the Park....
Rangers have put the bear down that they think attacked the boy. http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2015/06/08/smokies-rangers-plan-euthanize-bear-attacked-boy/28691927/
HooKooDooKu
06-09-2015, 17:38
...the bears have also learned to walk the cables and get at bags.....
How the heck does a bear walk the cables? Hold on to over-hanging branches (in which case the park service didn't do a good job picking out a place to put the cables).
Would like to see the pictures if you have a link.
that's not exactly true----along with the shaking the cables (heard some bears do it one night i was out), the bears have also learned to walk the cables and get at bags.....
cataloochee has or had some pictures of bears doing this...
granted----its really rare and the cables are still the safest/best way to store food in the Park....
Yep. I had a camp bear try to get my stuff off the hooks by jiggling the pull line (at 41). It didn't get the bags off but from then on I use a carabiner that goes through the strap and open hooks of the lines. I haven't had a shaker since that incident, though.
HooKooDooKu
06-09-2015, 17:44
Rangers have put the bear down that they think attacked the boy. http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2015/06/08/smokies-rangers-plan-euthanize-bear-attacked-boy/28691927/
Cool... a story with some details.
He said his son suffered bite wounds on his head and face but should make a full recovery.
That's excellent news to hear.
Someone seemed to have mentioned the father deserves a special father's day present for his efforts in fending off the bear. Based on the news story, I think the quote above IS his special father's day present.
Rangers have put the bear down that they think attacked the boy. http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2015/06/08/smokies-rangers-plan-euthanize-bear-attacked-boy/28691927/
Seems they did DNA testing on the bear. That's pretty quick testing.
Lone Wolf
06-09-2015, 17:47
Seems they did DNA testing on the bear. That's pretty quick testing.
they kilt if first then doin' the test. may come up negative. they need thinnin' regardless
they kilt if first then doin' the test. may come up negative. they need thinnin' regardless
Makes sense...
How the heck does a bear walk the cables? Hold on to over-hanging branches (in which case the park service didn't do a good job picking out a place to put the cables).
Would like to see the pictures if you have a link.
as they say----very carefully............
the photos i saw were down in cataloochee at the kiosk at the start of little cataloochee trail.........
its been a few years ago since ive been down there, so not sure if photos are still on the kiosk............
but, yes, a bear was tight roping its way across the line.......
This isn't from the smokies, but it does give you an idea what black bruins are capable of.
Bear on a wire.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw8BR0ADYWw
Ashepabst
06-10-2015, 11:05
man, that poor kid got beat up.
yeah.....i saw a picture earlier this morning and his injuries are more than i thought.............
<h3>Black Lives Matter</h3>
Its difficult to have a productive discussion on food bag hanging because usually two separate proposition are being discussed. One side argues for food bag hanging as a way to avoid being attacked by bears. The other side (myself) argues against food hanging because it's not an effective method of food storage.
Food bag hanging is generally effective and reliable if there's cables or a bear pole. Occasionally a bear will learn to defeat cables and poles, but that's outside the scope of this post.
Hanging food bags is prone to failure as evidenced by multiple occurrences of bears getting the bags at most locations that hikers and campers hang food. In many areas food bag hanging is prohibited, usually with requirements hikers use bear canisters. Some locations will allow use of a UrSack. The reason food bag hanging is prohibited in those aren't areas is simple, past experience has shown that the bears will learn to easily defeat food bag hanging. So, anyone arguing for the hanging of food bags simply doesn't have a limb to hang on if they're arguing that hanging food bags is an effective technique to prevent bears from getting the food. If they honestly believe that hanging the food bags will keep the hikers safe then they're naive and are denying the extensive results of food hanging. Bears routinely defeat the food bags hangs and consequently learn to associate humans with food. (Actually their association is probably being reinforced as the reason they're going for the hanging food bags us they have previously learned by getting non-hanging food bags.) So, if you believe that bears' association of humans with food is dangerous and you're seeking to increase safety then by hanging food bags, then you're defeating your goal since bears easily defeat food bag hangs. Fortunately there's little to no evidence that bear's association of humans with food is dangerous. Yes, that's correct, there's no such evidence, if fact there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. Bear attacks are rare despite the fact that people are routinely associated with food from food bags hanges, unattended packs, food left in tents and cars, unattended food at picnic sites and from people routinely intentionally feeding bears. Most attacks involve people that are intentionally interacting with bears. A few attacks involve predatory bears and small children or small women. Occasionally a few attacks result from someone threatening (or at least appearing to do so from the bear's perspective) the bear or it's cubs. The few remaining cases are so rare that's it's pure speculation as to why the bear attacked. But the simple fact remains is that despite bears routinely associating humans with food attacks are rare. So, hanging or not hanging the food bags has little to nothing to do with safety.
Well then that opens the question of why some of argue against hanging food bags. It's simple, hanging food bags increases the probability that a bear will get the food. This occurs because bear's easily learn to defeat properly hung food bags and most food bags hangs are probably not hung properly. Most food bag hangs I've seen were not done properly and it's unlikely this will ever change. Yes, a few hikers can hang their food bag probably, but experience shows that bears can and routinely defeat properly hung food bags. Just because a bear hasn't gotten your food bag doesn't mean it was properly hung and/or that they can't get it, it just means they haven't, that's why in problem areas all food bag hanging is prohibited. When bears become a nuisance because they have become highly effective at defeating food bag hangs bad things happen to the bears because the rangers have to deal with the problem and the outcome is never good for the bear. So, I'm not really advocating sleeping with your food as much as I'm advocating against a failed approach of hanging the food bags. I use the UrSack and never leave the food unattended. The UrSack is possibly unnecessary, but I'm also protecting the food against smaller critters. I just don't see food bag hanging as necessary as I don't leave the food unattended. At least I try not to do so, but reality is that occasionally I will, in such a case at least it's in the UrSack. If I did hang the food (occasionally required to do so) it will be in the UrSack and it's unlikely that the bear will get the food.
So, it's really about not leaving the food unattended, and it's not about safety (at least your safety). After all, "Black (Bears) Lives Matter!"
A thought worth sharing...
I was shocked as most of you were when I heard this news story. One thing that came to mind is perhaps this bear became "humanized" due to the abundance of trout fishing that occurs on Hazel Creek in the spring. What do people that catch fish do with them? They clean them. Perhaps this one learned last year, became bolder this year, and when the freebies started vanishing (as the fishing waned) this one became bolder still. Just a thought...
Offshore
06-11-2015, 07:32
<h3>Black Lives Matter</h3>
Its difficult to have a productive discussion on food bag hanging because usually two separate proposition are being discussed. One side argues for food bag hanging as a way to avoid being attacked by bears. The other side (myself) argues against food hanging because it's not an effective method of food storage.
Food bag hanging is generally effective and reliable if there's cables or a bear pole. Occasionally a bear will learn to defeat cables and poles, but that's outside the scope of this post.
Hanging food bags is prone to failure as evidenced by multiple occurrences of bears getting the bags at most locations that hikers and campers hang food. In many areas food bag hanging is prohibited, usually with requirements hikers use bear canisters. Some locations will allow use of a UrSack. The reason food bag hanging is prohibited in those aren't areas is simple, past experience has shown that the bears will learn to easily defeat food bag hanging. So, anyone arguing for the hanging of food bags simply doesn't have a limb to hang on if they're arguing that hanging food bags is an effective technique to prevent bears from getting the food. If they honestly believe that hanging the food bags will keep the hikers safe then they're naive and are denying the extensive results of food hanging. Bears routinely defeat the food bags hangs and consequently learn to associate humans with food. (Actually their association is probably being reinforced as the reason they're going for the hanging food bags us they have previously learned by getting non-hanging food bags.) So, if you believe that bears' association of humans with food is dangerous and you're seeking to increase safety then by hanging food bags, then you're defeating your goal since bears easily defeat food bag hangs. Fortunately there's little to no evidence that bear's association of humans with food is dangerous. Yes, that's correct, there's no such evidence, if fact there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. Bear attacks are rare despite the fact that people are routinely associated with food from food bags hanges, unattended packs, food left in tents and cars, unattended food at picnic sites and from people routinely intentionally feeding bears. Most attacks involve people that are intentionally interacting with bears. A few attacks involve predatory bears and small children or small women. Occasionally a few attacks result from someone threatening (or at least appearing to do so from the bear's perspective) the bear or it's cubs. The few remaining cases are so rare that's it's pure speculation as to why the bear attacked. But the simple fact remains is that despite bears routinely associating humans with food attacks are rare. So, hanging or not hanging the food bags has little to nothing to do with safety.
Well then that opens the question of why some of argue against hanging food bags. It's simple, hanging food bags increases the probability that a bear will get the food. This occurs because bear's easily learn to defeat properly hung food bags and most food bags hangs are probably not hung properly. Most food bag hangs I've seen were not done properly and it's unlikely this will ever change. Yes, a few hikers can hang their food bag probably, but experience shows that bears can and routinely defeat properly hung food bags. Just because a bear hasn't gotten your food bag doesn't mean it was properly hung and/or that they can't get it, it just means they haven't, that's why in problem areas all food bag hanging is prohibited. When bears become a nuisance because they have become highly effective at defeating food bag hangs bad things happen to the bears because the rangers have to deal with the problem and the outcome is never good for the bear. So, I'm not really advocating sleeping with your food as much as I'm advocating against a failed approach of hanging the food bags. I use the UrSack and never leave the food unattended. The UrSack is possibly unnecessary, but I'm also protecting the food against smaller critters. I just don't see food bag hanging as necessary as I don't leave the food unattended. At least I try not to do so, but reality is that occasionally I will, in such a case at least it's in the UrSack. If I did hang the food (occasionally required to do so) it will be in the UrSack and it's unlikely that the bear will get the food.
So, it's really about not leaving the food unattended, and it's not about safety (at least your safety). After all, "Black (Bears) Lives Matter!"
In all of this, we have generalizations based on limited observations, an attempt at comedy via a not-so-clever reference to current events outside of the topic, but not a bit of hard data. If a bag isn't hung properly, the problem isn't the bag, its the skill level of the hanger. "Bear bags don't kill bears. People who don't know how to hang a bear bag do."
Tuckahoe
06-11-2015, 07:34
Predators gonna predator...
Why do so many seem to have such a hard time saying that? Granted, I am no wild life biologist, but it seems to me that the habituated bear, is not generally a danger as much as they are a pain in the a$$. They're hanging around being a nuisance and waiting for that human to leave their food unattended because it is easy pickings. They will certainky destroy property and wreck things to get to food. And if anything they are a bit worse than that pain in the a$$ dog which keeps begging for food. But they do not generally attack people.
As with many pervious attacks, this was not an issue with food, but a bear being what nature intended, and that is a predator.
Pedaling Fool
06-11-2015, 08:40
Predators gonna predator...
Why do so many seem to have such a hard time saying that? Granted, I am no wild life biologist, but it seems to me that the habituated bear, is not generally a danger as much as they are a pain in the a$$. They're hanging around being a nuisance and waiting for that human to leave their food unattended because it is easy pickings. They will certainky destroy property and wreck things to get to food. And if anything they are a bit worse than that pain in the a$$ dog which keeps begging for food. But they do not generally attack people.
As with many pervious attacks, this was not an issue with food, but a bear being what nature intended, and that is a predator.Very true. I do think habituated bears are a big problem and we haven't seen the end of the consequences of habituated bears, especially in their boldness when it comes to stealing food, which could lead to some very dangerous encounters. Combine a very comfortable bear with more and more humans, but also with more and more bears (there numbers are still growing), meaning more competition for food and you got some interesting potential outcomes.
Having said that, I do believe most encounters with habituated bears are (and will continue to be) quite harmless.
I'm still waiting for more information, but I think this is NOT a case of a habituated bear, rather a predatory act -- two completely different things.
Very true. I do think habituated bears are a big problem and we haven't seen the end of the consequences of habituated bears, especially in their boldness when it comes to stealing food, which could lead to some very dangerous encounters. Combine a very comfortable bear with more and more humans, but also with more and more bears (there numbers are still growing), meaning more competition for food and you got some interesting potential outcomes.
"The black bear is the only bear species in New Hampshire, with an estimated population of 4,800 to 5,000 animals. The last time a black bear killed someone in the state was 1784."
"More recently, a Grafton woman suffered cuts on her arms when a bear attacked her as she opened her door to let her dog out in 2012, a year in which bear complaints spiked to more than 1,000 when a food shortage resulted in unusually desperate bears. That year aside, complaints have decreased in the last 10 years compared to the previous decade – even though both the bear and human populations have grown."
Increasing bear populations doesn't necessarily lead to more encounters or even dangerous or deadly encounters.
Sarcasm the elf
06-11-2015, 09:59
In all of this, we have generalizations based on limited observations, an attempt at comedy via a not-so-clever reference to current events outside of the topic, but not a bit of hard data. If a bag isn't hung properly, the problem isn't the bag, its the skill level of the hanger. "Bear bags don't kill bears. People who don't know how to hang a bear bag do."
The vast majority of bear bags I have seen, probably in the ballpark of 80-90% of them, have been hung incorrectly, often comically so. If my observations are representative of how the bags are hung as a whole then it at least raises the question as to whether there is a fundamental flaw in the concept of bagging and should not be written off as simply being a few people who "don't know how to hang a bear bag."
BirdBrain
06-11-2015, 10:14
The vast majority of bear bags I have seen, probably in the ballpark of 80-90% of them, have been hung incorrectly, often comically so. If my observations are representative of how the bags are hung as a whole then it at least raises the question as to whether there is a fundamental flaw in the concept of bagging and should not be written off as simply being a few people who "don't know how to hang a bear bag."
Again, the voice of reason comes from "sarcasm". I hang my food and am equally frustrated by the buffet supplied by those who hang wrong. By percentage, my crowd is a huge part of the problem.
SGT Rock
06-11-2015, 10:25
<h3>Black Lives Matter</h3>
Its difficult to have a productive discussion on food bag hanging because usually two separate proposition are being discussed. One side argues for food bag hanging as a way to avoid being attacked by bears. The other side (myself) argues against food hanging because it's not an effective method of food storage.
Food bag hanging is generally effective and reliable if there's cables or a bear pole. Occasionally a bear will learn to defeat cables and poles, but that's outside the scope of this post.
Hanging food bags is prone to failure as evidenced by multiple occurrences of bears getting the bags at most locations that hikers and campers hang food. In many areas food bag hanging is prohibited, usually with requirements hikers use bear canisters. Some locations will allow use of a UrSack. The reason food bag hanging is prohibited in those aren't areas is simple, past experience has shown that the bears will learn to easily defeat food bag hanging. So, anyone arguing for the hanging of food bags simply doesn't have a limb to hang on if they're arguing that hanging food bags is an effective technique to prevent bears from getting the food. If they honestly believe that hanging the food bags will keep the hikers safe then they're naive and are denying the extensive results of food hanging. Bears routinely defeat the food bags hangs and consequently learn to associate humans with food. (Actually their association is probably being reinforced as the reason they're going for the hanging food bags us they have previously learned by getting non-hanging food bags.) So, if you believe that bears' association of humans with food is dangerous and you're seeking to increase safety then by hanging food bags, then you're defeating your goal since bears easily defeat food bag hangs. Fortunately there's little to no evidence that bear's association of humans with food is dangerous. Yes, that's correct, there's no such evidence, if fact there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. Bear attacks are rare despite the fact that people are routinely associated with food from food bags hanges, unattended packs, food left in tents and cars, unattended food at picnic sites and from people routinely intentionally feeding bears. Most attacks involve people that are intentionally interacting with bears. A few attacks involve predatory bears and small children or small women. Occasionally a few attacks result from someone threatening (or at least appearing to do so from the bear's perspective) the bear or it's cubs. The few remaining cases are so rare that's it's pure speculation as to why the bear attacked. But the simple fact remains is that despite bears routinely associating humans with food attacks are rare. So, hanging or not hanging the food bags has little to nothing to do with safety.
Well then that opens the question of why some of argue against hanging food bags. It's simple, hanging food bags increases the probability that a bear will get the food. This occurs because bear's easily learn to defeat properly hung food bags and most food bags hangs are probably not hung properly. Most food bag hangs I've seen were not done properly and it's unlikely this will ever change. Yes, a few hikers can hang their food bag probably, but experience shows that bears can and routinely defeat properly hung food bags. Just because a bear hasn't gotten your food bag doesn't mean it was properly hung and/or that they can't get it, it just means they haven't, that's why in problem areas all food bag hanging is prohibited. When bears become a nuisance because they have become highly effective at defeating food bag hangs bad things happen to the bears because the rangers have to deal with the problem and the outcome is never good for the bear. So, I'm not really advocating sleeping with your food as much as I'm advocating against a failed approach of hanging the food bags. I use the UrSack and never leave the food unattended. The UrSack is possibly unnecessary, but I'm also protecting the food against smaller critters. I just don't see food bag hanging as necessary as I don't leave the food unattended. At least I try not to do so, but reality is that occasionally I will, in such a case at least it's in the UrSack. If I did hang the food (occasionally required to do so) it will be in the UrSack and it's unlikely that the bear will get the food.
So, it's really about not leaving the food unattended, and it's not about safety (at least your safety). After all, "Black (Bears) Lives Matter!"
As you said: A bear can defeat any hang, proper or improper. Bear Bagging is a confidence trick, people bear bag a few times and the bear doesn't get them or their food, then they think it must work. Truth probably is there wasn't a bear in the immediate area. I hear a lot of "proper food storage" but I've not heard of anyone that does improper food storage (i.e. sleep with their food) in the back country getting attacked. I have heard stories of bears shaking the cables to get food. And outside the park I've heard the two main methods are break the branch off that the food bag hangs on, or climb out the branch and defeat the cord.
I posted this on HF, but I'll repost it here because it is what I have observed over years in the back country of the GSMNP and other surrounding areas:
FWIW as a trail maintainer (in Nantahala and Cherokee) and someone that has done campsite clean up along that stretch of the Smokys: it is most likely people leaving trash in the fire rings that have habituated the bears. Campers seem to think leaving food wrappers, half eaten mountain house meals, egg shells, etc in the fire ring is acceptable. Burnable trash still has to be packed out, and burnable trash with foil in the wrappers is not going to burn out completely. There will be a ton of foil in any fire ring I ever clean out. My son and I carried out two full garbage bags of trash from the Lakeshore Trail, and that was after we left trash bags hanging that we couldn't carry - for a team to come in by boat and get the stuff we couldn't haul out. The worst campsites for trash were the ones accessible by boat if you can believe that.
I use the term campers instead of hikers because this section is frequented by horse campers and people who come in by boat to camp. One time up there a family had a wagon cart full of stuff they said they pulled the cart by hand after landing on the shore. They had tarps, stoves, tents, etc all over the place when I stopped to talk to them - they said they did that every year. I suspect they had cached a vehicle somewhere that had pulled the cart but wasn't going to challenge them or look for it. It was huge.
You can canister or hang your food or whatever in the Smokys, but it won't stop bears from coming to your campsite. The bears in the Smokys have been habituated to those campsites over decades. They walk down the trails and shortcut where they know to, and go to those campsites like people on a buffet line looking for what might be tasty. The park's system of designated campsites has concentrated the mess for sure, but it has created a system of habituating bears. If they had a system like Shenandoah NP where you could camp anywhere as long as you meet all the other requirements i.e. 200' away from water, 0.5 away from a road, 500' from the trail, etc - well it is my opinion that then you could break the cycle of bear habituation. Hanging your food, using an OP sack, or a canister use will not stop a bear from coming to your campsite in the Smokys because they were already going to come there anyway, but if you could camp in a stealth site that bears are not accustom to, then most of those precautions might actually protect you from a bear visit. I will caveat this by saying if you go to one of the very rarely used campsites you might have a better chance, but they are rare - something like campsite 14.
In a couple of months as the natural food in the area starts to come in they will go to eating up berries and become less interested in the campsites. But the only time to truly avoid bears in the Smokys is to camp in the winter.
Pedaling Fool
06-11-2015, 10:33
"The black bear is the only bear species in New Hampshire, with an estimated population of 4,800 to 5,000 animals. The last time a black bear killed someone in the state was 1784."
"More recently, a Grafton woman suffered cuts on her arms when a bear attacked her as she opened her door to let her dog out in 2012, a year in which bear complaints spiked to more than 1,000 when a food shortage resulted in unusually desperate bears. That year aside, complaints have decreased in the last 10 years compared to the previous decade – even though both the bear and human populations have grown."
Increasing bear populations doesn't necessarily lead to more encounters or even dangerous or deadly encounters.I agree, typically population increase will not necessarily lead to a jump in deadly encounters, that's not what I was saying. This is another case where we are mixing up habituated encounters and predatory encounters. All I was saying, is that in GSMNP, where bears feel relatively safe (they're not dumb, just like the deer in SNP know they are safe) around humans there is a potential for more dangerous encounters, but not from predation, rather just the bear trying to get at a person's food.
Bottom line, allowing HABITUATED bears to think we are not a threat and then adding to that human food is potentially a dangerous situation, depending on how fearless the HABITUATED bear is and how much it wants that food.
Then you got predatory attacks, very different thing. And, as of now, I believe this attack may have been predatory. It's a very rare occurrence, but it does happen.
BirdBrain
06-11-2015, 10:48
"The black bear is the only bear species in New Hampshire, with an estimated population of 4,800 to 5,000 animals. The last time a black bear killed someone in the state was 1784."
......
Increasing bear populations doesn't necessarily lead to more encounters or even dangerous or deadly encounters.
Maine has about 5 times the bear populating than that of New Hampshire and is about 4 times the size. I am more familiar with Maine than New Hampshire. Both states allow for hunting. Bears seem to be more of a problem in areas of those states that do not allow for hunting. I will let others debate why that is. I am argued out for today.
SGT, having spent most of my backpacking years in the Smokies, I agree. I think, unfortunately, if dispersed camping were allowed then canister use would have to be mandatory. As mentioned, there are a lot of hikers who do not know how to hang food properly and a lot of smart bag bears in GSMNP.
TurboPants
06-11-2015, 11:15
I was reading a recent issue of Backpacker Magazine and they were saying attendance in the national parks has risen something like 40% last year alone and expected the trend to continue. As more Americans are venturing back into the outdoors we have to accept higher risk of bear encounters like this, unfortunately. It's simple math really. I doubt this will deter him from getting back out there and hiking, in time. So glad he's alright!
What I really want to know is:
1) Did they cook their food and eat where they hung?
2) If so, did they use odor sealed bags for their waste materials and rappers?
3) Did they change clothes for sleeping to get odors off their person?
Those are the 3 major things I have been taught will virtually eliminate bear encounters at night, but shelters and sites around GSMNP are weekend pit stops for weekend hikers that generally use poor LNT etiquette. Many probably burn the food left overs and wrappers in a fire ring right next to where they sleep. I'd love to hear more about their story so we can learn from it.
But as someone who was seriously considering converting to a hammock this makes me second guess that!! I realize a tent/hammock would probably not have mattered the slightest in this case, but it still makes you go hmmmm.
Traveler
06-11-2015, 11:43
I was reading a recent issue of Backpacker Magazine and they were saying attendance in the national parks has risen something like 40% last year alone and expected the trend to continue. As more Americans are venturing back into the outdoors we have to accept higher risk of bear encounters like this, unfortunately. It's simple math really. I doubt this will deter him from getting back out there and hiking, in time. So glad he's alright!
What I really want to know is:
1) Did they cook their food and eat where they hung?
2) If so, did they use odor sealed bags for their waste materials and rappers?
3) Did they change clothes for sleeping to get odors off their person?
Those are the 3 major things I have been taught will virtually eliminate bear encounters at night, but shelters and sites around GSMNP are weekend pit stops for weekend hikers that generally use poor LNT etiquette. Many probably burn the food left overs and wrappers in a fire ring right next to where they sleep. I'd love to hear more about their story so we can learn from it.
But as someone who was seriously considering converting to a hammock this makes me second guess that!! I realize a tent/hammock would probably not have mattered the slightest in this case, but it still makes you go hmmmm.
I would add a question to that, did the boy have food with him in the hammock, a candy bar, popcorn, bits of s'mores, etc that would attract a bear?
As rare as black bear attacks are, unprovoked attacks are more rare. Usually after investigations its found there was an aggravating circumstance like an unleashed dog bothering the animal, food that was left laying around, throwing stones at the animal, etc. While it is indeed possible there was nothing the boy had or did, there could have been people around him that did something which has not come to light yet. I agree with the fact we do not know enough about this to make any kind of judgement outside of looking at historical data, I hope a more detailed report of the investigation follows the initial story.
LoneStranger
06-11-2015, 12:20
Maine has about 5 times the bear populating than that of New Hampshire and is about 4 times the size. I am more familiar with Maine than New Hampshire. Both states allow for hunting. Bears seem to be more of a problem in areas of those states that do not allow for hunting. I will let others debate why that is. I am argued out for today.
BSP has a tremendous bear population as evidenced by scat and tracks all throughout the backcountry portions of the park. There is no hunting allowed there with the exception of a small portion at the very north end. Despite that I have never seen a single bear there because they are naturally afraid of people unless they have been conditioned not to be. The same goes for backcountry camping in the Pemi; full of bears that are never actually seen. They do have bear problems at the established camps in NH because the animals have been taught to look there for food.
SGT Rock
06-11-2015, 12:29
SGT, having spent most of my backpacking years in the Smokies, I agree. I think, unfortunately, if dispersed camping were allowed then canister use would have to be mandatory. As mentioned, there are a lot of hikers who do not know how to hang food properly and a lot of smart bag bears in GSMNP.
Probably. But I disagree about "hanging properly". There is no such thing.
SGT Rock
06-11-2015, 12:31
I was reading a recent issue of Backpacker Magazine and they were saying attendance in the national parks has risen something like 40% last year alone and expected the trend to continue. As more Americans are venturing back into the outdoors we have to accept higher risk of bear encounters like this, unfortunately. It's simple math really. I doubt this will deter him from getting back out there and hiking, in time. So glad he's alright!
What I really want to know is:
1) Did they cook their food and eat where they hung?
2) If so, did they use odor sealed bags for their waste materials and rappers?
3) Did they change clothes for sleeping to get odors off their person?
Those are the 3 major things I have been taught will virtually eliminate bear encounters at night, but shelters and sites around GSMNP are weekend pit stops for weekend hikers that generally use poor LNT etiquette. Many probably burn the food left overs and wrappers in a fire ring right next to where they sleep. I'd love to hear more about their story so we can learn from it.
IF you have been taught that doing all this will eliminate bears visiting you in the GSMNP then you have been taught wrong.
But as someone who was seriously considering converting to a hammock this makes me second guess that!! I realize a tent/hammock would probably not have mattered the slightest in this case, but it still makes you go hmmmm.Yes, 1 micron of nylon would have made all the difference :sarcasm:
SGT Rock
06-11-2015, 12:32
I would add a question to that, did the boy have food with him in the hammock, a candy bar, popcorn, bits of s'mores, etc that would attract a bear?
As rare as black bear attacks are, unprovoked attacks are more rare. Usually after investigations its found there was an aggravating circumstance like an unleashed dog bothering the animal, food that was left laying around, throwing stones at the animal, etc. While it is indeed possible there was nothing the boy had or did, there could have been people around him that did something which has not come to light yet. I agree with the fact we do not know enough about this to make any kind of judgement outside of looking at historical data, I hope a more detailed report of the investigation follows the initial story.How about bear being bear. We don't need rationalization gymnastics to try and pin the blame on the victim.
Yes, 1 micron of nylon would have made all the difference :sarcasm:
But if I'm in a Hilleberg bear proof tent then I'm safe and/or He (the bear) can only come at me from three sides instead of 4. :sarc:
Sarcasm the elf
06-11-2015, 13:06
How about bear being bear. We don't need rationalization gymnastics to try and pin the blame on the victim.
There is an inherent human need to rationalize events and to try to remove the fear of circumstances outside of our control. It's amazing to me how many comments I have read on this and other sites where people need to know what this kid did "wrong." The idea that this was truely an unprovoked attack seems to bother a lot of people because it removes their ability to justify to themselves that it wouldn't happen to them. They want to find some act taken by the campers that they can point to and say "ah ha! They did this thing that I don't do, and therefore this will never happen to me!" People love to tell themselves that they are able to take an action that will keep them safe, it isn't about quantifiable reduction of risk, it's about feeling secure in their own minds.
To me the theory that keeping a snickers bar in your tent or sleeping in the clothes you cooked in can turn an otherwise timid eastern black bear into a ferocious man eater is objectively absurd. However being able to point to a strictly observed safety ritual just makes sleeping in the woods feel safer.
Traveler
06-11-2015, 13:08
How about bear being bear. We don't need rationalization gymnastics to try and pin the blame on the victim.
Rational gymnastics? LOL
SGT Rock
06-11-2015, 13:09
You just verbalize what I've been thinking for a few days now.
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Traveler
06-11-2015, 13:10
There is an inherent human need to rationalize events and to try to remove the fear of circumstances outside of our control. It's amazing to me how many comments I have read on this and other sites where people need to know what this kid did "wrong." The idea that this was truely an unprovoked attack seems to bother a lot of people because it removes their ability to justify to themselves that it wouldn't happen to them. They want to find some act taken by the campers that they can point to and say "ah ha! They did this thing that I don't do, and therefore this will never happen to me!" People love to tell themselves that they are able to take an action that will keep them safe, it isn't about quantifiable reduction of risk, it's about feeling secure in their own minds.
To me the theory that keeping a snickers bar in your tent or sleeping in the clothes you cooked in can turn an otherwise timid eastern black bear into a ferocious man eater is objectively absurd. However being able to point to a strictly observed safety ritual just makes sleeping in the woods feel safer.
Obviously I am in the dark with the results of the investigation of this, sorry about that. Where can I get that information of the attack from the Park Service?
Tuckahoe
06-11-2015, 13:30
there is an inherent human need to rationalize events and to try to remove the fear of circumstances outside of our control. It's amazing to me how many comments i have read on this and other sites where people need to know what this kid did "wrong." the idea that this was truely an unprovoked attack seems to bother a lot of people because it removes their ability to justify to themselves that it wouldn't happen to them. They want to find some act taken by the campers that they can point to and say "ah ha! They did this thing that i don't do, and therefore this will never happen to me!" people love to tell themselves that they are able to take an action that will keep them safe, it isn't about quantifiable reduction of risk, it's about feeling secure in their own minds.
To me the theory that keeping a snickers bar in your tent or sleeping in the clothes you cooked in can turn an otherwise timid eastern black bear into a ferocious man eater is objectively absurd. However being able to point to a strictly observed safety ritual just makes sleeping in the woods feel safer.
<golf clap>
Sarcasm the elf
06-11-2015, 13:32
Obviously I am in the dark with the results of the investigation of this, sorry about that. Where can I get that information of the attack from the Park Service?
To be clear, my previous comment was a general observation about people's reactions to this and other other attacks.
As far as the recent attack, I haven't seen anything published by the park sevice yet, but news reports are indicating that the hikers did everything by the book. (It also happened on a trail where hammocking was allowed, not on the A.T.)
http://www.wbir.com/story/news/2015/06/07/several-great-smoky-mountains-national-park-trails-backcountry-campsites-closed-after-bear-hurts-teen/28645819/
Park officials said the father and son were on a backpacking trip in the Smokies. Both were sleeping in hammocks about 10 feet apart and they properly stored their packs, equipment, and food with aerial storage cables
Chair-man
06-11-2015, 13:44
This report says the park service found and killed the bear. (http://myfox8.com/2015/06/11/recovering-teen-recounts-bear-attack-in-great-smoky-mountains/) Not a whole lot of details about it.
Traveler
06-11-2015, 13:49
To be clear, my previous comment was a general observation about people's reactions to this and other other attacks.
As far as the recent attack, I haven't seen anything published by the park sevice yet, but news reports are indicating that the hikers did everything by the book. (It also happened on a trail where hammocking was allowed, not on the A.T.)
http://www.wbir.com/story/news/2015/06/07/several-great-smoky-mountains-national-park-trails-backcountry-campsites-closed-after-bear-hurts-teen/28645819/
Gotcha, I read the same information that said the father and son "appeared to have been doing the right things". The article quotes the park service spokesperson that this was a "very rare and unusual situation", which I think most would agree.
Though opinion may suffice, investigations of these things often turns up information that is not available at the time of the headline. I have seen black bear attacks claimed to be spontaneous only to find out later someone was throwing rocks at the animal or a dog off leash decided to pursue it, etc. Though it may not be the case here, given the history of these things I don't rule it out automatically. The bear will be killed regardless once it can be identified.
I saw a news report where the father said the bear was dragging his son, by the head, towards the woods. I'm not a bear whisperer but this has the feel of a predatory attack. Even of they did "everything right" I don't think it mattered in this case.
As far as the recent attack, I haven't seen anything published by the park sevice yet, but news reports are indicating that the hikers did everything by the book
that is what the park told us (the media)......
although, they didnt mention if he had a candy bar or something like that out......
I saw a news report where the father said the bear was dragging his son, by the head, towards the wood
not sure if anyone has seen the pictures, but the kids face got beat up pretty bad...
i think we have a photo on our website......www.wbir.com
The bear will be killed regardless once it can be identified.
the bear was killed the other day................
[QUOTE]One time up there a family had a wagon cart full of stuff they said they pulled the cart by hand after landing on the shore. They had tarps, stoves, tents, etc all over the place when I stopped to talk to them[/QUOTE
i mentioned this same thing in a prior post a few pages back....
and yes, this adds in to the problems with bears...
its simple math----the more food you bring into the backcountry----the more it will attract bears......
SGT Rock
06-11-2015, 14:16
Right. A candy bar on his head. I'm pretty sure at that point the bear knew he was trying to kill live prey.
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i cant find it to quote it but someone asked when the last time a bear pulled someone outta a tent in the smokies.....
that would be last year------although, not sure exactly if the person was pulled out or jumped out after the bear tore into the tent..........this was at CS 86, at the bottom part of hazel creek.....a very popular campsite for fishing guide trips, boaters, and hikers....
i believe the bear grabbed the pad out as well..
sadly---i wasnt able to get anymore info on it----ie, was there food in the tent..........
Right. A candy bar on his head. I'm pretty sure at that point the bear knew he was trying to kill live prey.
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all i am saying is that maybe, just maybe, the kid has some food with him in the hammock...
maybe, just maybe, that attracted the bear.........
right now---the bears are between food supplies, so they are going to be a little more aggressive trying to get food.........
In all of this, we have generalizations based on limited observations, an attempt at comedy via a not-so-clever reference to current events outside of the topic, but not a bit of hard data. If a bag isn't hung properly, the problem isn't the bag, its the skill level of the hanger. "Bear bags don't kill bears. People who don't know how to hang a bear bag do."
Your oblivious to all the hard data around you. Blood Mt. had so many food bag hang fails that they close the area routinely. GSMNP said enough to food bag hangs except on cables. Why? Because hanging from trees doesn't work! Same with many other areas. Argue with the rangers but their experience is that hanging from trees is a failed plan.
Pedaling Fool
06-11-2015, 15:46
If you read this, you all will see that actually most attacks on humans by black bears are predatory attacks. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jwmg.72/abstract
And if you look thru the list of fatal attacks (I wish there were a similar list of non-fatal attacks) you can see that many of them were predatory attacks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
There was one predatory attack near the AT when I was hiking in 2006 and remember reading about it when sitting in the diner in Hot Springs. Very Sad case. http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/04/woman_visits_site_of_fatal_bea.html
Excerpt:
"Cenkus took photographs of the children as they climbed onto the rocks. Nearby, another family looked at the falls.
Cenkus soon spotted a bear on a ridge about 100 feet away. She yelled to her children. It was time to leave.
Within minutes, the bear raced down the hill, across the creek and attacked Luke, wrapping a giant paw over his skull.
Cenkus yanked the boy from the animal's grip and stared into the 200-pound bear's eyes, praying it would back off. For a few seconds, it worked.
But as she turned away to check on her children, the bear lunged at her, sinking its teeth into the back of her neck. "Save my children," she screamed to the nearby family.
I'm going to die, she thought, as sharp teeth and long claws ripped at her arms and legs. She heard her bones crush. The pain was excruciating."
Captain Bluebird
06-12-2015, 18:03
CNN interviews father and son. Amazing story. Son is lucky to be alive considering intensity of the attack and the fact they had to walk five miles to flag down a boater....
Captain Bluebird
06-12-2015, 18:06
I found it on my CNN app under latest videos!
Pedaling Fool
06-12-2015, 18:55
I found it on my CNN app under latest videos!
Here's the video if anyone is interested http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/06/12/black-bear-attack-north-carolina-orig.cnn
Captain Bluebird
06-24-2015, 07:52
http://www.wcpo.com/news/state/state-ohio/smoky-mountains-national-park-euthanized-bear-not-the-one-that-attacked-ohio-teen Euthanized bear determined not to be the same bear involved in attack! The campsite and others remain closed....
centerfieldr162
06-24-2015, 08:50
http://www.wcpo.com/news/state/state-ohio/smoky-mountains-national-park-euthanized-bear-not-the-one-that-attacked-ohio-teen Euthanized bear determined not to be the same bear involved in attack! The campsite and others remain closed....
Thanks for sharing the link. He's definitely lucky to be alive. I can't imagine waking up to my son or daughter screaming and then seeing a bear attacking him or her.. Crazy.
HooKooDooKu
06-24-2015, 09:33
http://www.wcpo.com/news/state/state-ohio/smoky-mountains-national-park-euthanized-bear-not-the-one-that-attacked-ohio-teen Euthanized bear determined not to be the same bear involved in attack! The campsite and others remain closed....
Issue of the wrong bear is already being discussed here: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/112250-Shot-the-wrong-bear