View Full Version : Alcohol, solid fuel and wood stoves banned in Rocky Mtn National Park
So..I was a bit surprised when someone told me that alcohol stoves are banned in Rocky Mountain National Park.
Not so much doubting, but wanting to see in this new development in writing, I sent an inquiry to RMNP today. Note this was for RMNP only. Not sure about outer NPS units.
I will admit to being a little surprised as this is the first I heard of such a ban in NPS units outside of general open flame bans. RMNP does not allow campfires except in campground and a very limited amount of backcountry sites..so maybe I should not be surprised.
Here's the exchange if anyone is curious. To help prevent auto spammers, I've changed the direct email adresses to dashes...
ROMO Information, NPS (sent by
[email protected])
10:30 AM (3 hours ago)
to pmags
The use of disposable or portable charcoal grills, wood fuel camp stoves, petroleum fuel/gas stoves, propane turkey cookers and gas grills are allowed for food preparation in all campgrounds. Used charcoal and ash must be completely extinguished and disposed of in a trash receptacle. In back country sites, fuel camp stoves, petroleum fuel/gas stoves are permitted. There are a few back country sites that do have fire rings where you may have wood fires and even charcoal fires if you wish to carry in charcoal. Thank you for your interest in Rocky Mountain National Park.
Information Office
Rocky Mountain National Park
970.586.1206
On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Paul Mags <
[email protected]> wrote:
Thank you for the information.
If possible, could you please clarify this statement: " In back country sites, fuel camp stoves, petroleum fuel/gas stoves are permitted" ?
Does that mean canister and white gas stoves *only*? (i.e. stoves with UL certification and an on/off valve). Are solid fuel stoves and alcohol stoves specifically banned for backcountry use?
Again, thank you for your time.
ROMO Information, NPS (sent by
[email protected]) 12:36 PM (1 hour ago)
to Paul
Stoves must have an on/off switch to be used in the Park.
(Emphasis in red mine)
MuddyWaters
06-09-2015, 19:23
Bummer. My cannister stove doesnt have an on-off switch, and I dont know of any that do.
They have a needle valve, which can be closed.
Slo-go'en
06-09-2015, 19:36
Bummer. My cannister stove doesnt have an on-off switch, and I dont know of any that do.
They have a needle valve, which can be closed.
Obviously they mean a stove which has a means of turning off the flame, which is a valve of some sort.
However, banning alcohol stoves is a bit over the top. Yes, they can be knocked over and spread fuel, but I've seen enough white gas stoves spit fire out of loose fittings or turn into flame throwers when over pressurized that those can be an even greater risk. The rings you see burnt into picnic tables and shelter floors? Those are caused by whisper lite stoves which have the flame very close to what they are sitting on.
Oh well.
MuddyWaters
06-09-2015, 19:47
I dont have a problem with it.
But if its not published somehow by due process in the 36 CFR for NPS or addendums for RMNP, it basically doesnt exist.
I dont easily find it, which is odd. There is due process the federal government is required to follow for deciding and approving regulations.
If concerned, I would ask to be referred to the printed regulation in question.
4eyedbuzzard
06-09-2015, 20:01
Unfortunately, even though they may receive initial input from some technically competent people, many of these regulations are ultimately written by people who have little to no knowledge of the equipment, practices, etc. (and in some cases even basic science :rolleyes:). So they write a reg. that basically is a coverall. I think the biggest reason for including alcohol stoves is that most are burning uncontained fuels with no means to stop the fuel flow, as opposed to canister and traditional white gas stoves. Granted, any stove can malfunction and start a fire, and regarding alcohol you can remove the oxygen. But, there is a problem in that many alcohol stoves are homemade, and there is no way to control the ingenuity (and lack thereof of) of what devices some people will dream up and light off in the woods. So they write a reg. that basically ensures that allowed stoves will have been built by a company with some engineering resources.
MuddyWaters
06-09-2015, 20:02
Here is the law, from the compendium for RMNP: Note there is nothing about a shutoff valve, that was entirely fabricated. Alcohol was not addressed, likely from ignorance. As it reads to me, however poorly written, I can use an alcohol stove anywhere I want, its not regulated at all. That is surely not the intent however.
Section 2.13 Fires(a)(1)(i) Campfires are permitted in auto campgrounds, backcountry campsites that aredesignated as open to fires, designated picnic areas, and at permanent and termemployee housing and other residential areas as approved by the Superintendent,and only in metal fire grates provided by the park for such use.
The use of disposable or portable charcoal grills, wood fuel camp stoves,petroleum fuel/gas stoves, and gas grills is allowed for food preparation asadjuncts to fire grates provided by the park in auto campgrounds and picnic areas,and designated backcountry sites by permit only. Used charcoal and ash must becompletely extinguished and disposed of in a trash receptacle.
41(a)(1)(ii) Campfires and portable grills are permitted in the following areas:Campgrounds Aspenglen Glacier Basin Longs Peak Moraine Park Timber CreekPicnic Areas Beaver Ponds (In Kawuneeche Valley ONLY; Beaver Ponds Picnic Area EAST,below Hidden Valley, has been removed and rehabilitated) Bowen-Baker Colorado River Copeland Lake Endovalley Harbison Meadow Hidden Valley Hollowell Park Holzwarth Historic Site Lake Irene Lily Lake Picnic Area (ONLY self-contained cooking grills, and ONLY under theconditions of a special use permit. Sprague Lake Timber Lake Tuxedo Park Upper Beaver Meadows West Alluvial Fan Wild Basin TrailheadEmployee Housing Areas All Permanent, Term, and Seasonal employee housing areas where designated.(a)(3)(i) The use of open flame torches (e.g., “tiki” torches) is prohibited due to theincreased associated fire hazard.
4eyedbuzzard
06-09-2015, 20:39
Here is the law, from the compendium for RMNP: Note there is nothing about a shutoff valve, that was entirely fabricated. Alcohol was not addressed, likely from ignorance. As it reads to me, however poorly written, I can use an alcohol stove anywhere I want, its not regulated at all. That is surely not the intent however.
Section 2.13 Fires(a)(1)(i) Campfires are permitted in auto campgrounds, backcountry campsites that aredesignated as open to fires, designated picnic areas, and at permanent and termemployee housing and other residential areas as approved by the Superintendent,and only in metal fire grates provided by the park for such use.
The use of disposable or portable charcoal grills, wood fuel camp stoves,petroleum fuel/gas stoves, and gas grills is allowed for food preparation asadjuncts to fire grates provided by the park in auto campgrounds and picnic areas,and designated backcountry sites by permit only. Used charcoal and ash must becompletely extinguished and disposed of in a trash receptacle.
41(a)(1)(ii) Campfires and portable grills are permitted in the following areas:Campgrounds Aspenglen Glacier Basin Longs Peak Moraine Park Timber CreekPicnic Areas Beaver Ponds (In Kawuneeche Valley ONLY; Beaver Ponds Picnic Area EAST,below Hidden Valley, has been removed and rehabilitated) Bowen-Baker Colorado River Copeland Lake Endovalley Harbison Meadow Hidden Valley Hollowell Park Holzwarth Historic Site Lake Irene Lily Lake Picnic Area (ONLY self-contained cooking grills, and ONLY under theconditions of a special use permit. Sprague Lake Timber Lake Tuxedo Park Upper Beaver Meadows West Alluvial Fan Wild Basin TrailheadEmployee Housing Areas All Permanent, Term, and Seasonal employee housing areas where designated.(a)(3)(i) The use of open flame torches (e.g., “tiki” torches) is prohibited due to theincreased associated fire hazard.Here's the thing, though. Regardless of the specific wording of the above, Park Superintendents have extremely broad powers under 36 CFR to interpret regulations and also to institute and enforce local rules - pretty much whatever they deem necessary at the time in order to protect the park. And that could include not allowing alcohol stoves if they deemed it so.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36/2.13
[My bold for emphasis]
36 CFR § 2.13 Fires.
(a) The following are prohibited:
(1) Lighting or maintaining a fire, except in designated areas or receptacles and under conditions that may be established by the superintendent. [Note: This is the catch all.]
(2) Using stoves or lanterns in violation of established restrictions.
(3) Lighting, tending, or using a fire, stove or lantern in a manner that threatens, causes damage to, or results in the burning of property, real property or park resources, or creates a public safety hazard.
(4) Leaving a fire unattended.
(5) Throwing or discarding lighted or smoldering material in a manner that threatens, causes damage to, or results in the burning of property or park resources, or creates a public safety hazard.
(b) Fires shall be extinguished upon termination of use and in accordance with such conditions as may be established by the superintendent. Violation of these conditions is prohibited.
(c) During periods of high fire danger, the superintendent may close all or a portion of a park area to the lighting or maintaining of a fire.
You can contest what was written. But, it seems to me, you may get a ticket, too, in the process.
Just passing on the info direct from the source.
MuddyWaters
06-09-2015, 21:03
There is no catch all. Anything to be enforced, must be written down and signed off.
They may have good intentions, but they have vague poorly worded regulation that is subject to interpretation.
I had a hand in getting Yosemite to change theirs last year. It now explicitly states that alcohol and tablet stove are allowed, even in fire restrictions.
All they needed was someone to point out WHY they get so many questions about that stuff. The fact their rules were vague, and misleading , and didnt consider several options that backpackers use, as well as there being no such thing as jellied petroleum stove fuel, wasnt even on their radar. It was simple to get cleared up when it was brought to their attention. The rangers want clear regs too. It makes their life easier.
More importantly, though, I wonder if this banning of certain stoves types in RMNP is a trend? With all the droughts in the American West (http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2015/04/the-american-west-dries-up/389432/) (Colorado was an anomaly this year..so far), and the potential for wildfires, I wonder if land agencies are becoming gun shy about certain stoves?
Seems so.
Alcohol and Esbit stoves still have their place. In the coming years, I just think their place will be increasingly less in the American West.
4eyedbuzzard
06-09-2015, 21:13
There is no catch all. Anything to be enforced, must be written down and signed off.
They may have good intentions, but they have vague poorly worded regulation that is subject to interpretation.
I had a hand in getting Yosemite to change theirs last year. It now explicitly states that alcohol and tablet stove are allowed, even in fire restrictions.
All they needed was someone to point out WHY they get so many questions about that stuff. The fact their rules were vague, and misleading , and didnt consider several options that backpackers use, as well as there being no such thing as jellied petroleum stove fuel, wasnt even on their radar. It was simple to get cleared up when it was brought to their attention. The rangers want clear regs too. It makes their life easier.I agree. But the only way this stuff gets cleared up is, as you found out, if someone takes the effort to bring it up and follow through on it. But, on the other note, Superintendents (and Rangers) can make on-the-spot decisions as to what is allowed and what is not - whether written regs. exist or not. It's all about their determination if a threat to the park and/or people exists. Written regs. can't cover every possibility of what may happen, hence, they have very broad powers.
Slo-go'en
06-09-2015, 21:15
5c is the catch all.
A Caldora cone stove system is pretty fool proof. The addition of a small aluminum saucier under it to contain any possible fuel leak would make it even safer. One would also hope that anyone using such a stove (or any stove) in an area prone to forest fires is well versed in its care and feeding. But I guess in the National Park where they have to let anybody in, such assurances are not possible.
I kinda like the canister stove for it's convenience, but I hate buying the canisters and what to do with them when they are empty.
MuddyWaters
06-09-2015, 21:15
More importantly, though, I wonder if this banning of certain stoves types in RMNP is a trend? With all the droughts in the American West (http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2015/04/the-american-west-dries-up/389432/) (Colorado was an anomaly this year..so far), and the potential for wildfires, I wonder if land agencies are becoming gun shy about certain stoves?
Seems so.
Alcohol and Esbit stoves still have their place. In the coming years, I just think their place will be increasingly less in the American West.
Possibly.
A fool can make a disaster with any stove though.
I was reading a CT blog the other day, and this dude had a pic of his caldera cone. Belching flames around the pot using twigs, with a note that it was the first time he had used wood in it.
The problem was, the ground was dried needles and stuff under it. The fool didnt clear the area to the dirt before doing this. It looked mighty dry too.
Seeing these people out there. maybe its for the best.
My zelph pot & BRS3000T stove, weigh 1.95 oz together. I cant complain about using that and getting 20 days on a small cannister.
Im a big alcohol fan, but it doesnt really matter that much to me. If it prevents 100,000 acres from burning due to an idiot, maybe thats OK.
A bigger problem, to me, is campfires. I would like to see campfires banned on all public land, and a national campaign to make people realize how dangerous, scarring, etc they are. There is simply no reason short of dieing of hypothermia , to have one.
People quit wearing fur, they can quit making fires in the woods.
Another Kevin
06-09-2015, 21:26
There is no catch all. Anything to be enforced, must be written down and signed off.
They may have good intentions, but they have vague poorly worded regulation that is subject to interpretation.
Since what's written down and signed off on is that fires are prohibited entirely, except as authorized by the Superintendent, that's what's enforceable. If the superintendent hasn't made any other determination, then fires are prohibited. Given that writing in the regulation, any ambiguity goes against allowing a fire.
SimplyMe
06-09-2015, 22:13
In AZ's Tonto National Forest I asked about the use of my Esbit stove. Took two days before the rangers returned with a strict NO. These are fire.
Well gee so is the propane stove sitting on the other guys tailgate of his pickup. Last year a major fire was started by a propane stove leaking and being knocked on the ground. ....
At least an Esbit burns out.
Clearity in statements would be better. No more hot coffee.
A fool can make a disaster with any stove though.
No disagreement there. I suspect that since these stove are often homemade or similar, that the "powers that be" don't trust them.
Similar type of situation to why legal does not trust open source software vs a more expensive option from say Microsoft.
rocketsocks
06-09-2015, 22:47
No disagreement there. I suspect that since these stove are often homemade or similar, that the "powers that be" don't trust them.
Similar type of situation to why legal does not trust open source software vs a more expensive option from say Microsoft....and ASTM, ASME, Underwriters, all that good stuff. So cooking with a tealight is out I guess?
4eyedbuzzard
06-09-2015, 22:50
In a mild defense of not allowing alcohol stoves under certain conditions, no one need look much further than all the burn marks on picnic tables and shelter floors on the AT. Not that a Whisperlite can't do that as well, but, just sayin'.
Offshore
06-10-2015, 07:23
[QUOTE=Slo-go'en;1976935}
I kinda like the canister stove for it's convenience, but I hate buying the canisters and what to do with them when they are empty.[/QUOTE]]
Carry the empty canister out, poke a few holes in in using a "church key" can opener or the Jetboil $5 tool and put it out with your recycling. Not a big deal.
So..I was a bit surprised when someone told me that alcohol stoves are banned in Rocky Mountain National Park.
Not so much doubting, but wanting to see in this new development in writing, I sent an inquiry to RMNP today. Note this was for RMNP only. Not sure about outer NPS units.
I will admit to being a little surprised as this is the first I heard of such a ban in NPS units outside of general open flame bans. RMNP does not allow campfires except in campground and a very limited amount of backcountry sites..so maybe I should not be surprised.
Here's the exchange if anyone is curious. To help prevent auto spammers, I've changed the direct email adresses to dashes...
ROMO Information, NPS (sent by
[email protected])
10:30 AM (3 hours ago)
to pmags
The use of disposable or portable charcoal grills, wood fuel camp stoves, petroleum fuel/gas stoves, propane turkey cookers and gas grills are allowed for food preparation in all campgrounds. Used charcoal and ash must be completely extinguished and disposed of in a trash receptacle. In back country sites, fuel camp stoves, petroleum fuel/gas stoves are permitted. There are a few back country sites that do have fire rings where you may have wood fires and even charcoal fires if you wish to carry in charcoal. Thank you for your interest in Rocky Mountain National Park.
Information Office
Rocky Mountain National Park
970.586.1206
On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Paul Mags <
[email protected]> wrote:
Thank you for the information.
If possible, could you please clarify this statement: " In back country sites, fuel camp stoves, petroleum fuel/gas stoves are permitted" ?
Does that mean canister and white gas stoves *only*? (i.e. stoves with UL certification and an on/off valve). Are solid fuel stoves and alcohol stoves specifically banned for backcountry use?
Again, thank you for your time.
ROMO Information, NPS (sent by
[email protected]) 12:36 PM (1 hour ago)
to Paul
Stoves must have an on/off switch to be used in the Park.
(Emphasis in red mine)
All was going well until you introduced "on-off" valve etc.
BirdBrain
06-10-2015, 15:40
All was going well until you introduced "on-off" valve etc.
Agreed. Suggesting the wording was not helpful. Of course if that was the intent all along, it matters little. Sometimes it is best to have authorities remain ignorant. Too much knowledge leads to the need to clarify. In this case, rule. It is like much like dress codes for private schools. Denim skirts are fine until someone asks if they are fine. Then the all powerful authority feels the need to opine.
I did not introduce it. This was the wording that the original person was told over the phone that was then relayed to me. *HE WAS SPECIFICALLY TOLD THE PROBLEM WAS NO ON-OFF SWITCH *
You can "blame" the person who asked the question over the phone. He was told NO. I am simply verifying. In writing. (Notice I used the word "valve" myself)
To me, when someone tells me something, I like to remain informed and verify for myself..and not ignorant as you suggest we leave people.
Now, stop playing lawyer and use the gray matter between your ears. :)
BirdBrain
06-10-2015, 16:48
I did not introduce it. This was the wording that the original person was told over the phone that was then relayed to me. *HE WAS SPECIFICALLY TOLD THE PROBLEM WAS NO ON-OFF SWITCH *
You can "blame" the person who asked the question over the phone. He was told NO. I am simply verifying. In writing. (Notice I used the word "valve" myself)
To me, when someone tells me something, I like to remain informed and verify for myself..and not ignorant as you suggest we leave people.
Now, stop playing lawyer and use the gray matter between your ears. :)
You used the words on off. Go back and read what you wrote. Second off, I did not blame anyone for anything. I stated that if that was the intent, it matters little. The introduction of the wording was not helpful. No one thinks you wrote the regs. Thirdly, I was not calling you or any hiker ignorant. I was stating that sometimes it is best for those in charge to not be faced with ruling on every nuance. The example of the dress should have shown that.
Now I am.going back to read the exchange again. I am pretty sure your account stated that you introduced the on off language. I will be glad up admit my error.
BirdBrain
06-10-2015, 16:55
Okay. You said valve. He said switch. I just agreed with zelph. He quoted you correctly. Your account states that you introduced the words on off. I repeat, the suggesting of the wording was not helpful, but if that was the intent it matters little. If you cannot grasp those words, then you are the one lacking gray matter usage ability.
Now I am.going back to read the exchange again. I am pretty sure your account stated that you introduced the on off language. I will be glad up admit my error.
No, you are incorrect.
The person who relayed the info to me was told DIRECTLY about the on/off switch. I simply asked what he was told. I said as such on my first post. So..I was a bit surprised when someone told me that alcohol stoves are banned in Rocky Mountain National Park.
Here's the full exchange with the person who brought it up:
Person:
"I am going to RMNP, and they don't allow alcohol stoves with no on/off valve, is there any good alternative?"
Me: Whuh?!?! News to me..did a ranger tell you this?
"Hi Paul,
Yes I did call the park office yesterday, and they told me that, anything not having an on-off switch is not allowed."
Capish?
BirdBrain
06-10-2015, 17:08
No, you are incorrect.
The person who relayed the info to me was told DIRECTLY about the on/off switch. I simply asked what he was told.
"I am going to RMNP, and they don't allow alcohol stoves with no on/off valve, is there any good alternative?"
"Hi Paul,
Yes I did call the park office yesterday, and they told me that, anything not having an on-off switch is not allowed."
Capish?
I believe you. I just was not privy to that detail until you just introduced it. I believe Zelph suffered from the same confusion. Your OP left us both thinking that you introduced the language.
I should never have posted my agreement with Zelph. My point was secondary to the reality that you posted as information.
Your OP left us both thinking that you introduced the language.
.
So..I was a bit surprised when someone told me that alcohol stoves are banned in Rocky Mountain National Park.
Zelph has a history of trying to obfuscate issue a bit when it comes to stoves he sells. :)
Check out these comments (It is Dan Y) http://www.pmags.com/alcohol-stoves-reconsidered
Not particularly nice. And a bit accusatory.
BirdBrain
06-10-2015, 17:20
So..I was a bit surprised when someone told me that alcohol stoves are banned in Rocky Mountain National Park.
Zelph has a history of trying to obfuscate issue a bit when it comes to stoves he sells. :)
Check out this comments: http://www.pmags.com/alcohol-stoves-reconsidered
Not particularly nice. And a bit accusatory.
Well allow me to apologize for my imperfect wording. You provide valued content on a regular basis. I really was not trying to impune your efforts. I thought my saying that if that was the intent it mattered little would have covered it. I have a habit of offering gratuitous information. I succeeded. I did not deserve the previous flaming.
Moving on.
BirdBrain
06-10-2015, 17:22
Double post. Feel free to delete Mags. :)
4eyedbuzzard
06-10-2015, 17:57
Double post. Feel free to delete Mags. :):eek: Delete Mags? That's kind of harsh. :p :D
rocketsocks
06-10-2015, 18:00
http://i0.wp.com/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/BLU-82_Daisy_Cutter_Fireball.JPG/800px-BLU-82_Daisy_Cutter_Fireball.JPG?resize=500%2C335
Bam! thanks for the cool link
http://zenstoves.net/Canister.htm#CanisterTypes
BirdBrain
06-10-2015, 18:01
:eek: Delete Mags? That's kind of harsh. :p :D
Thank you. This exchange could use some humor.
Honestly, were my words that harsh? I thought I was just making an observation on how authorities mess things up.
The part that tweaks me is the suggestion that I was not using my brain because I did not account for words that were not stated in this thread. The private conversation was not listed here.
The part that tweaks me is the suggestion that I was not using my brain because I did not account for words that were not stated in this thread. The private conversation was not listed here.
Too many people, not neccessarily you, are interested in playing backcountry lawyer rather than seeing the obvious intent of what what was meant...
And, once more, for the third time:
So..I was a bit surprised when someone told me that alcohol stoves are banned in Rocky Mountain National Park.
If you want things spelled out directly, three times no less, rather than implied, well....... :)
BirdBrain
06-11-2015, 00:38
Too many people, not neccessarily you, are interested in playing backcountry lawyer rather than seeing the obvious intent of what what was meant...
And, once more, for the third time:
So..I was a bit surprised when someone told me that alcohol stoves are banned in Rocky Mountain National Park.
If you want things spelled out directly, three times no less, rather than implied, well....... :)
I saw those words each time. It was the origins of the words on off that was not obvious. Yes, it is obvious to us that an alcohol stove does not have an on off switch or valve. I do not have confidence that every authority that decides such things know this. The fact that the authority used the word switch and you used the word valve demonstrates that the authority lacks knowledge. As such, I would not have volunteered those words. It is clear now, that you did not. It was not clear from the OP that you did not. Again, I said from the beginning that if that was the intent, it matters little. You continue to imply that I am stupid. I remain amazed that my words are so mischaracterized. I meant you no malice.
4eyedbuzzard
06-11-2015, 09:17
Thank you. This exchange could use some humor.
Honestly, were my words that harsh? I thought I was just making an observation on how authorities mess things up.
The part that tweaks me is the suggestion that I was not using my brain because I did not account for words that were not stated in this thread. The private conversation was not listed here.I was just joking at the grammar given the spirited context - the notion of "deleting Mags", as in eradicating him - not your obvious intent of letting Mags know to delete the double post.
BirdBrain
06-11-2015, 10:07
I was just joking at the grammar given the spirited context - the notion of "deleting Mags", as in eradicating him - not your obvious intent of letting Mags know to delete the double post.
I got your joke. I was pleased to see the spirit. I am saddened by the spirit Mags has demonstrated towards me. My point of how we deal with those that have the ability to make our lives difficult is valid. It is infinitely subordinate to the good information he provided, but still valid. I am not the idiot he implies me to be. I am not seeking loopholes either. I am thankful for the clarifications he provided. I will be better equipped to be in compliance if I hike there. I do not think Mags is stupid. It does puzzle me that he does not grasp the valid nuance that I stated. I wish I had not gone there. It certainly did not add to this thread. All it accomplished was to make someone I had considered to be a reasonable person think that I am not. Both of us have changed our opinion of the other based on words that was not in this thread prior to it going south. I no longer think Mags is reasonable and he thinks I am an idiot.
I was just joking at the grammar given the spirited context - the notion of "deleting Mags", as in eradicating him - not your obvious intent of letting Mags know to delete the double post.
I am sure a lot of people would like to delete me. :D I left the post in because the joke is lost w/o the double post... :)
And, no, I don't think you are an idiot. I have a very sarcastic, blunt and non-too-gentle sense of humor. For the more gentle people who tend to frequent the hiking circles, does not always work. I grew up working class Catholic in an ethnic family in the northeast. With those stereotypes working against me..it is amazing I am not even more coarse. ;) FWIW, the humor was given to people in general.
I think it is time to give it a rest..aye?
rocketsocks
06-11-2015, 11:38
I don't like deletions...makes em hard to read.
What surprised me was, I thought the ban on Alchy stoves was already in effect due to last years fire (or there bouts???) on the CT ???
I don't like deletions...makes em hard to read.
What surprised me was, I thought the ban on Alchy stoves was already in effect due to last years fire (or there bouts???) on the CT ???
Not that I am aware of...
Been a very wet spring.
I suspect the park superintendent of RMNP is just very super cautious/conservative. There are a total of five bears in RMNP, yet bear canisters are required. And I doubt Ursacks will be allowed anytime soon, either. The backcountry office is phone only (no email!) vs online registration for Canyonlands NP. As one person wrote me "automated reservation system, automated payment, printed the permit on your desktop". That's pretty cool if you ask me.
Some parks are just more conservative and slow to adapt versus another.
As someone noted above, the park superintendent has A LOT of discretion in their mini-empire!
BirdBrain
06-11-2015, 12:44
I am sure a lot of people would like to delete me. :D I left the post in because the joke is lost w/o the double post... :)
And, no, I don't think you are an idiot. I have a very sarcastic, blunt and non-too-gentle sense of humor. For the more gentle people who tend to frequent the hiking circles, does not always work. I grew up working class Catholic in an ethnic family in the northeast. With those stereotypes working against me..it is amazing I am not even more coarse. ;) FWIW, the humor was given to people in general.
I think it is time to give it a rest..aye?
You got it. I will cease my attempt to discuss the merits of the words in question. I would rather that be the focus rather than the perceived characteristics of the ones discussing them. Sadly, that was not allowed.
rocketsocks
06-11-2015, 13:06
Not that I am aware of...
Been a very wet spring.
I suspect the park superintendent of RMNP is just very super cautious/conservative. There are a total of five bears in RMNP, yet bear canisters are required. And I doubt Ursacks will be allowed anytime soon, either. The backcountry office is phone only (no email!) vs online registration for Canyonlands NP. As one person wrote me "automated reservation system, automated payment, printed the permit on your desktop". That's pretty cool if you ask me.
Some parks are just more conservative and slow to adapt versus another.
As someone noted above, the park superintendent has A LOT of discretion in their mini-empire!Yeah I might not even have the right trail, and maybe it was 2 or 3 years ago...I thought it was a story you broke though...hmm. A hiker accidentally kicked over there alchy stove. shorty after the stoves were ban.
Yeah I might not even have the right trail, and maybe it was 2 or 3 years ago...I thought it was a story you broke though...hmm. A hiker accidentally kicked over there alchy stove. shorty after the stoves were ban.
This one? http://www.denverpost.com/ci_20654312/hewlett-fire-near-fort-collins-at-7-673
rocketsocks
06-11-2015, 13:23
This one? http://www.denverpost.com/ci_20654312/hewlett-fire-near-fort-collins-at-7-673
That's the one...well at least I got the "there was a fire" part right. :o
magic_game03
06-11-2015, 13:25
Bummer. My cannister stove doesnt have an on-off switch, and I dont know of any that do.
They have a needle valve, which can be closed.
Sorry to bust your needle valve but a VALVE IS A TYPE OF SWITCH! So yes you do have an on/off switch. Maybe go brush up on your mechanical engineering 101. Seems as if your statement just plummeted to new heights. (Yes, for all you english majors the sarcastic oxymoron was intended.)
As far as I can remember, every national park I've visited in the last decade has a policy against open flames in backcountry campsites, except in limited designated sites with established fire rings. (I mostly hike out west so this statement not definitive for all national parks, only the ones I've hiked in.)
As far as the OP, it boggles my mind how a self declared 'hiker trash' from Colorado has never heard this. Really?!?
rocketsocks
06-11-2015, 13:32
Sorry to bust your needle valve but a VALVE IS A TYPE OF SWITCH! So yes you do have an on/off switch. Maybe go brush up on your mechanical engineering 101. Seems as if your statement just plummeted to new heights. (Yes, for all you english majors the sarcastic oxymoron was intended.)
As far as I can remember, every national park I've visited in the last decade has a policy against open flames in backcountry campsites, except in limited designated sites with established fire rings. (I mostly hike out west so this statement not definitive for all national parks, only the ones I've hiked in.)
As far as the OP, it boggles my mind how a self declared 'hiker trash' from Colorado has never heard this. Really?!?
My cousin Vinnie could argue the switching takes place in the brain at a nero chemical level...and win! he's that damn good. :rolleyes: sham antics
BirdBrain
06-11-2015, 13:48
Sorry to bust your needle valve but a VALVE IS A TYPE OF SWITCH! So yes you do have an on/off switch. Maybe go brush up on your mechanical engineering 101.
Thank you for taking the pressure off me. This debate should erase any memory of my straining over wording.
Okay RS, you and I were pipefitters for quite some time. I will allow you the pleasure. My turn to get popcorn.
rocketsocks
06-11-2015, 14:17
Thank you for taking the pressure off me. This debate should erase any memory of my straining over wording.
Okay RS, you and I were pipefitters for quite some time. I will allow you the pleasure. My turn to get popcorn.
Ok, I'll call Vinnie.:D
Another Kevin
06-11-2015, 15:03
I'm just going to assume charitably that the person who gave the answer is neither a pipefitter nor an engineer, and take "on-off switch" as a popular term for "built-in device whereby the operation of the system can be interrupted," and leave it at that.
In times of fire danger (which is hardly ever, here in the East, except right after the snow melts before we've got lots of green stuff covering the duff), I keep a half-bucket of water next to my alchy stove when it's lit. That's my on-off switch. In the West, I'd have to switch to another system. But I don't hike in the West.
That's like my attitude toward bear safety. I sleep with food when the bears are asleep or when I'm waaaay off the beaten path and unlikely to encounter a habituated bear. I use a PCT hang most of the time. I use a bear canister when I must (which for me, means "the portion of the High Peaks Wilderness lying east of the ridge located to the west of Indian Pass"). And I don't use a BearVault there, because there's still a bear in there that can open them. Some of the less-well-informed staff seem to think that the canister must be a Garcia, because that's what ADK rents, but the ranger for the district says that anything hard-sided (no Ursacks) and sold commercially for bear protection is legal, with the exception of the BearVault.
In other words, I use my judgment when I may and follow the directions of the landowner when I must.
As far as the OP, it boggles my mind how a self declared 'hiker trash' from Colorado has never heard this. Really?!?
That's a new regulation that CO Rob, myself and many other active CO hikers have not heard of.
The stove ban is for the park only. And, again, something very new.
In all my hiking, the only stove bans have been during specific open flame bans and not in general.
As mentioned, different park superintendents take a stricter view than others. Obviously, RMNP is strict in terms of the stoves. Yosemite? Not-so-much.
Again, we are not debating if most parks ban open flames (well known). What surprised many of us that RMNP has declared certain stoves to be "an open flame" due to lack of a valve/switch/doohickey. ..which, again, other than obvious high fire danger seasons, is highly unusual.
I can't speak for Rob, but I rarely go backpacking in RMNP due to the red tape and the many choices minus the red tape elsewhere. (Though, I suspect Rob is similar).
So, yes. Really. :) If you can't understand that and/or misread what I wrote, perhaps you should use your gray matter more as well. ;) (Or you just have sand in your boxers perhaps and a bit grouchy?)
rocketsocks
06-11-2015, 18:04
I'm just going to assume charitably that the person who gave the answer is neither a pipefitter nor an engineer, and take "on-off switch" as a popular term for "built-in device whereby the operation of the system can be interrupted," and leave it at that.
Since none of us have been sworn in w/hand on book (lets please not debate that one either) and had to qualify officially, i'd say that's the prudent thing to do. I even like Mag's doohickey definition for purposes here.
MuddyWaters
06-11-2015, 19:59
Sorry to bust your needle valve but a VALVE IS A TYPE OF SWITCH! So yes you do have an on/off switch. Maybe go brush up on your mechanical engineering 101. Seems as if your statement just plummeted to new heights. (Yes, for all you english majors the sarcastic oxymoron was intended.)
As far as I can remember, every national park I've visited in the last decade has a policy against open flames in backcountry campsites, except in limited designated sites with established fire rings. (I mostly hike out west so this statement not definitive for all national parks, only the ones I've hiked in.)
As far as the OP, it boggles my mind how a self declared 'hiker trash' from Colorado has never heard this. Really?!?
Sorry to bust YOUR bubble, but that is something YOU made up.
A valve is not a switch.
Here is the definition of switch from websters dictionary:
Full Definition of SWITCH
1
: a slender flexible whip, rod, or twig <a riding switch>
2
: an act of switching (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/switching): as
a : a blow with a switch
b : a shift from one to another
c : a change from the usual <that outfit is a switch>
3
: a tuft of long hairs at the end of the tail of an animal (as a cow) — see cow illustration (http://www.merriam-webster.com/art/dict/cow.htm)
4
: a device made usually of two movable rails and necessary connections and designed to turn a locomotive or train from one track to another
5
: a device for making, breaking, or changing the connections in an electrical circuit
6
: a heavy strand of hair used in addition to a person's own hair for some coiffures
I couldnt care less about the reg. They use the "shutoff valve" verbage in many regulations during fire restrictions, and sometimes in standing regulations.
The issue here, is it is not anywhere in these regulations, at all.
Now, the types of stoves they intend all DO have shutoff valves, so they use this as an example that is easy for idiots to understand. Fine, even though it isnt written down.
The person stating it just got screwed up, is all. We all know what they MEANT.
dont know how new it is, but the 2014 compendium contains the current stove regs, signed in august 2014
magic_game03
06-11-2015, 23:06
Here is the definition of switch from websters dictionary:
You're going to use a layman's dictionary to argue IEEE and ASME constructs. I should probably stop calling network switches, switches, because Webster doesn't mention anything about a switch being a communication portal. Might as well take that dictionary to your next doctor's appointment and argue with him too
rocketsocks
06-11-2015, 23:28
Time/Life is much better in the anatomy dept.:D
BirdBrain
06-11-2015, 23:32
I thought we were talking about stoves. I had no idea we were in the mechatronics realm. Or is my stove a transformer? No wonder they want these things banned. We can't have transformer stoves running around loose with no on off switches on them.
I remember that incident: walk up a bicycle trail on a hot day, in tinder dry conditions (with fire warnings) and stop to have lunch that is hot food or a hot drink, place stove near combustable material, kick over alcohol stove, and, can't even kick dirt on the flames.
...that screams fire-bug.
I didn't like any part of the "explanation".
Me? I use a zelph spill-proof alcohol stove w/lid.
I remember that incident: walk up a bicycle trail on a hot day, in tinder dry conditions (with fire warnings) and stop to have lunch that is hot food or a hot drink, place stove near combustable material, kick over alcohol stove, and, can't even kick dirt on the flames.
...that screams fire-bug.
I didn't like any part of the "explanation".
Me? I use a zelph spill-proof alcohol stove w/lid.
Hi Connie, good info about safe, spill-proof stoves.
The "StarLyte Stove is a good example of a safe alcohol stove. It came into being right here on Whiteblaze. Mags was around when it was named after Trail Angel "StarLyte"
Mags the Hiker Trash knew about “Safe” Non-spill alcohol stoves but was always too busy “reconsidering” stoves to draw interest to his blog site.:)
Too busy to inform park officials of “Safe” alcohol stoves.:)
Yes, there is a "safe" alcohol stove available:)
http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/starlyte-stove.php
"The StarLyte Stove"
Made in the USA!
The unique feature of this burner is the material under the stainless steel mesh. It is the same material that is used in the manufacturing of the popular Swedish marine alcohol stoves that are commonly seen on Ebay Has integrated stainless steel pot support.
Read all about the StarLyte on Whiteblaze.net how it was designed and became popular with the backpackers here in the United States and many European countries. Came into being in the Do It Yourself Gear Forum.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/18383-STARLYTE-alcohol-stove-worlds-lytest-almost?highlight=starlyte+stove
The StarLyte weighs in at 16.4 grams. That is the combined weight of the burner and pot stand.
Burner is made of aluminum and has an integrated stainless steel pot support.
Fuel capacity is 1 ounce in suspension
Boils 2 cups of 69 degree water in 6 1/2 min.
Used 1/2 ounce of denatured alcohol to boil 2 cups of water.(always use windscreen for best fuel efficiency) results may vary according to conditions and pot used.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/18383-STARLYTE-alcohol-stove-worlds-lytest-almost?highlight=starlyte+stove
Dan,
I have not used your stove nor am I overly familiar with it. Truly. I can't keep track of the myriad of stoves which really are not that different in the end. Does it have an on-off doohickey thingamabob?
But if you think, differently, then perhaps you are right.
May I suggest you send a stove to RMNP and see what they have to say? Please let us know the results.
Or, if you don't have the time, send this photo instead? It was from a very good review....
30958
I am not sure spilled fuel is the issue. I could be wrong, but I do not see an on-off whatchamahoosey for the open flame.
But, again, let us know what the powers that be think Dan. Perhaps your use of the word "safe" in quotes may be appropriate for them.
I backpacked or camped 24 trips (60+ days) last year. Not bad for a weekend warrior with a career and a wife. Perhaps I was too busy being outside to reconsider stoves and discuss it in minutia. But enough to give it a piece of gear a fair shake.
Send me a stove, and I'll give it a fair review. With photos and then I'll see if I truly reconsider it. Fair? It is wet spring. As mentioned, I use this type of stove in wet and cool weather. So it will get used. Including this weekend.
Email directly if interested pmags AT pmags.com
Paul
BirdBrain
06-12-2015, 23:05
Mags, will that patient and magnanimous reply, you just restored the previous opinion I held before that you are indeed a reasonable person.
Just saying. It is what it is.
MuddyWaters
06-12-2015, 23:11
Fires have started when stoves have been left simply unnattended.
Not just "spilled". I wouldnt equate " spill proof" with being "safe". Safer....yes. But not unequivocably " safe".
There are other facets of operation and chances for operator error.
Also not argueing any type of stove is really safer. Some of the rules are somewhat arbitrary IMO.
Mags, will that patient and magnanimous reply, you just restored the previous opinion I held before that you are indeed a reasonable person.
Just saying. It is what it is.
Living up to my last name: Magnanti ;)
(seriously, same root word.. :) )
The entire review that Mag's mentioned and others can be seen here:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/reviews/display_reviews?forum_thread_id=20958&cat=Stoves%20-%20Alcohol&cid=18
Zelph's Stoveworks SS Starlyte Ultralyte Alcohol Stove on 05/09/2009 00:36:15 MDT
Rating: 5 / 5
Technical review of Zelph's Stoveworks SS Starlyte Ultralyte Alcohol Stove and E-Z fold windscreen.
Stove type
The stove is a wickerized open top alcohol stove with a built in pot stand.
First impressions
I am a machinist and a have a strong interest in designing and making BP stoves and I am very critical of the manufacturing quality of other MYOG stoves. When I unpacked the Starlyte stove I noticed that it is well made and presented, the stove came with a well made E-Z fold windscreen, the quality of the Starlyte actually impressed me.
Construction and materials
The stove is made from a small aluminum tin with the top cutout and filled with fiberglass with a stainless steel cover to hold the fiberglass in, four holes have been drilled equal spaced around the edge where the integrated pot stand was then place, the pot stand is made from two pieces of stainless steel wire which have been spot welded together and then bent to fit into the holes. The windscreen is made of aluminum which has been crinkled, the clip that came with the screen is a hanger from a curtain.
Specifications
Weights as measured on my scales
Stove: 14.8 grams (this is as advertised)
The E-Z fold windscreen: 21.2 grams
Clip that came with the windscreen to hold it together: 3.4 grams
Measuring cup: 3.4 grams
Total of 42.8 grams
Diameter of stove: 55 mm
Height of stove and pot stand: 44 mm
Testing
Test condition was in my garage at 600 meters elevation, the ambient temperature was around 170C, I used Australian denatured alcohol 95% ethanol content. In each test I place 20 grams of fuel in the stove and after reaching 950C as quickly as possible I placed a tin over the stove to put the flame out, this was the same for all tests.
I ran four tests on the starlyte stove (heating rates can be seen in graph below) in each test I heated 0.5 liters of water from tap temperature to 950C and then normalized the results to grams used to heat water 800C (g/800C). As the stove was sitting directly on my test bench and the test surface was warming up between tests I placed a cooled piece of 3 mm ply under the stove before each new test.
Results
1/ 14.0 g/800C
2/ 16.0 g/800C
3/ 13.1 g/800C
4/ 12.3 g/800C
Average of test 1,3 &4 = 13.1 grams or about 16.4 mls
Note test 2: while doing the test I noticed that the pot was not central on the stove, I must have knocked the stove off center while placing the pot on it, I decided to leave this incorrect placement until the end of the test, this non central placement showed more fuel being used than the other tests.
Notes test 1&3: in these tests the windshield was left slightly open so I could look at the flame, I suspect this might have some effect on the efficiency.
Notes test 4: in this test I had the windshield full closed, as can be seen in the results this was the most efficient test.
Discussion of results
When used correctly the Starlyte stove used similar amount of fuel to my Trangia 27-1 which I consider a standard amongst alcohol stove this is very impressive as the Starlyte system is much lighter than the Trangia
Testing the no spilling claim.
I filled the stove with 20 grams of alcohol, lit the stove and then tipped the stove over on my testing bench to try and see what would happen, surprisingly as can be seen in the photo no fuel spilled out of the stove, the flame just stayed coming out of the stove.
30958
Trying to spill fuel from the Starlyte stove (CAUTION DO NOT TRY THIS WITH OTHER ALCOHOL STOVES)
Conclusion
I found the Starlyte very easy to use, I had no problems with the filling of fuel, the fiberglass wick filling had no problems absorbing the fuel. The stove ignited very easy, it only took a touch of the lighter that I was using.
The windscreen was easy to unroll and rollup and to setup around the pot, the clip that was supplied was also easy to put on and the clip was useful in removing the windscreen after the water had reached the desired test temperature.
The stove pot is supported by 4 legs these where not perfectly leveled and the pot had a very small amount of rocking but with a little bit of adjustment this can be easily fixed.
I have not used this stove in the field as yet and if I like to cook gourmet meals and for this reason I prefer Canister stoves, but I have ran a lot of tests on many different alcohol stoves and I really enjoyed using this stove.
Tony
Mags, you have seen these alcohol burner under chafing pans. They have an off and on switch or call it a valve. The handle closes off access to fuel. It's a shutoff valve of the simple type. put your little pop can stove in there and you're good to go.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/chaffing%20alcohol%20stoves_zpsxooigug1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/chaffing%20alcohol%20stoves_zpsxooigug1.jpg.html)
Dan,
That's fine and dandy..but it does no good unless the powers that be think so. :) Is it UL certified? As the British like to say, that can be a sticky widget.
The offers still there for the review.
Let me know.
Paul
The rules will never be changed. We abide by the rules.
This lighweight backpacking stove with valve has been around for years and yet no one mentions it when the conversation comes up about alcohol stoves during fire bans. Everyone is in too big of a hurry to get into a peeing contest about legislators etc.
This stove has the shut of valve with fold away valve handle.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/trangia%20fold%20away%20handle%20on%20snuffer._zps fujtpsin.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/trangia%20fold%20away%20handle%20on%20snuffer._zps fujtpsin.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/trangia%20with%20valve_zpsaoxg1srj.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/trangia%20with%20valve_zpsaoxg1srj.jpg.html)
Dan, does your stove come with this apparatus? And is your stove and this apparatus UL certified? I am still not quite sure. I look forward to your clarification.
Paul