View Full Version : Bear attackin GSMNP (report on ABC news)
blackwater slim
06-10-2015, 19:00
Not a lot of detail but the teen (it seemed) is going to be alright. Dad woke up and saw the bear dragging his son by the head.
Tuckahoe
06-10-2015, 19:23
http://www.whiteblaze.. t/forum/showthread.php/111853-Hazel-creek-closures-due-to-bear-incident
Already a thread going
Since it was a black bear attacking sleeper, should we carry bear spray???
You might agitate it.
Bear spray should not be needed on the AT... unless you come across a deranged attacking human!
Only once did I come across a bear that I met eye-to-eye, and it was in the GSMNP. It was on the trail and the bear did not move as I came over a bluff. I calmly turned 180 degrees, walked back for a minute, and returned. The bear moved about 60 feet off the trail, stared me down, moved his head up and down sniffing the air as I walked by. Yes, my heart rate went up, but the bear stood off to the side and never bothered me. Had I sprayed him (which is illegal) he or she may have charged.
I came across about 10 bears in all my years of hiking and every one, except the above, ran away quickly. One time about 3:00 AM, I had one come sniffing and snorting around my tent on Albert Mtn (actually a little N bound). My food was hung and the bear left with no physical encounter. Your odds of having a bad encounter with a bear are about the same as falling off the side of a mountain while hiking.
WalkingStick75
06-11-2015, 16:34
I have backpacked all over the lower 48 and in real bear country in Alaska. In every bear incident that I have ever known it can be traced back to human not following the rules in bear country. I saw a idiot get out of their vehicle and chase a bear in the Smokies. Another idiot in Canada taking pictures of a Brown bear on a kill along the highway. I hope this young man is going to be ok and if you feel safer carrying bear spray then buy some and learn when to use it and when not to but more important cook away from camp, keep food, toothpaste etc away from camp, cooking clothes away from camp, make noise while hiking in limited distance areas, NEVER run away from a bear but stand your ground and make yourself as large as possible. If in a group stay together. Bears when standing up are just looking around. Bears that hit the ground with their paws are warning you. Bears that charge you will 99.9% of the time not attack but a display of dominance, stand your ground. You can have your spray ready but don't use it before it's needed. If you carry spray it should be on your belt, not in your pack.
swisscross
06-11-2015, 16:36
Had I sprayed him (which is illegal)
How so? Isn't that why it is sold?
Read the rules for GSMNP.
WalkingStick75
06-11-2015, 16:52
Read the rules for GSMNP. I just read the backcountry rules for GSMNP I didn't see any mention either way on the use of bear spray. I am aware that most NP's have a policy it is illegal to use spray in the established campground areas. Do you have a link stating that it is illegal?
I just read the backcountry rules for GSMNP I didn't see any mention either way on the use of bear spray
no sure if bear spray is illegal in the park or not, but their rangers suggested that people carry it........
sooooooooooooo...................
swisscross
06-11-2015, 17:11
Read the rules for GSMNP.
"Pepper Spray
Bear pepper spray may be carried by hikers within Great Smoky Mountains National Park for the strict purpose of protection against bodily harm from aggressive wildlife. It should not be applied to people, tents, packs, other equipment or surrounding area as a repellent. Bear pepper spray is a chemical formula designed specifically to deter aggressive or attacking bears. It must be commercially manufactured and labeled as "Bear Pepper Spray" and be registered with the Environmental Protection Agency and individual states. Bear spray must contain between 1% to 2% of the active ingredients capsaicin and related capsaicinoids."
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/hiking.htm
What am I missing?
It has more to due with approaching, disturbing, feeding, molesting, etc bears. I don't recall language specifically addressing the use of bear spray but the other stuff will get you a fine if you are caught.
It is like the gun argument we have in Florida (and some other states). If you feel your life is in danger, use your weapon, and you are protected by law. Of course we know that can backfire, because life endangerment as you see it can be your opinion not necessarily the opinion of those investigating.
In the example that I stated, if I had pulled out a can of spray, and sprayed the bear to make it go away... It could have been considered as disturbing the bear which is illegal. Did I feel threatened?... Yeah... A little bit, especially when my heart rate went up.
Bottom line... probably not illegal to carry the spray, but potentially illegal to use it unless you are physically being attacked (and it's probably too late at that point).
What am I missing?
bacon..........
cause everything goes better with bacon.............
swisscross
06-11-2015, 17:16
bacon..........
cause everything goes better with bacon.............
Do bears like bacon?
Thanks for the clarification and link swisscross. That has been an addition in recent years.
Do bears like bacon?
they love it.............
cause bacon adds to the problems on hazel creek...........
seriously...............hazel creek is one of a few trails in the park where users can bring in carts.......
and in those carts----they can bring in as much food as they can handle....
these carts are something to see----bicycle wheels with mountain bike tires, the whole nine yard........
simple math---more food brought into the backcountry, more problems with bears.................
they love it.............
cause bacon adds to the problems on hazel creek...........
seriously...............hazel creek is one of a few trails in the park where users can bring in carts.......
and in those carts----they can bring in as much food as they can handle....
these carts are something to see----bicycle wheels with mountain bike tires, the whole nine yard........
simple math---more food brought into the backcountry, more problems with bears.................
Is that the campsite on the shoreline? I stayed at one where people could pull up in a boat and party. It was pretty trashy. I camped back where the horsemen typically camp.
hazel creek does have a campsite right down near the boat landing (actually, maybe 1/4 mile up)..........
then there are sites all along the trail going up to the ridge....
and yes, that's another problem...............boaters come over (and yes, they have the right to use it), camp there, and bring in food as well...
also, that lower site (#86) is used by some commercial fishing outfitters............
HooKooDooKu
06-11-2015, 20:14
...boaters come over (and yes, they have the right to use it), camp there, and bring in food as well...
You say that as if boaters were subject to different rules than drivers parking at a trailhead. As long as they have their permits, what does it matter how they got to the park.?
that's what im saying----doesnt matter how they got there, they are allowed to use the campsites just like hikers...........and just have to follow the rules like everyone else......
i didnt want it to make is seem like the campsite were just for hikers........
but, what they do add, is more food and provisions based on the fact that its not on their back.................
After reading these posts it seems prudent to carry bear spray. Especially since I will be sleeping in a hammock. I understand that there are more campers and more food in a smaller area where the bear attack took place than might be on the AT. However, I am not sure that all AT hikers will know to cook in separate cooking clothes, cook far enough away from camp, and remember to bag toothpaste with food at night. Thanks for all the input!
From a research paper on bear attacks:
"Our impression is that any activity that brings people and black bear into possible close proximity may very rarely be associated with fatal attack. Bear cayenne pepper spray was not used for defence during any of the fatal attacks."
Only the recent NJ attack seems like pepper spray would have made a difference as the hikers were not surprised and would have had time to deploy the spray. Pepper spray has been used in a few aggressive bear situations, perhaps if it hadn't the outcome would have been fatal. Either way it's very unlikely that you'll ever need it and perhaps you should carry it if only for the 2 legged varmits.
I have backpacked all over the lower 48 and in real bear country in Alaska. In every bear incident that I have ever known it can be traced back to human not following the rules in bear country. I saw a idiot get out of their vehicle and chase a bear in the Smokies. Another idiot in Canada taking pictures of a Brown bear on a kill along the highway. I hope this young man is going to be ok and if you feel safer carrying bear spray then buy some and learn when to use it and when not to but more important cook away from camp, keep food, toothpaste etc away from camp, cooking clothes away from camp, make noise while hiking in limited distance areas, NEVER run away from a bear but stand your ground and make yourself as large as possible. If in a group stay together. Bears when standing up are just looking around. Bears that hit the ground with their paws are warning you. Bears that charge you will 99.9% of the time not attack but a display of dominance, stand your ground. You can have your spray ready but don't use it before it's needed. If you carry spray it should be on your belt, not in your pack.
AHHHH, human responsibility from the start and sanity. This is the first step in avoiding negative bear/human interactions as a backpacker - KNOWLEDGE. All the other stuff comes second - gun, bear spray, etc.
Every bear encounter is an interaction. Learn your place in how you the human has responsibility in these interactions.
interaction - MUTUAL or RECIPROCAL action or influence
Do your part!
Pedaling Fool
06-13-2015, 07:51
Everyone seems to forget...the dude was just sleeping in his hammock, period. This bear went after him, not his clothes, not a freakin' candybar:rolleyes:...only him.
The only way to prevent that kind of human-bear encounter is to stop going into the woods.
MuddyWaters
06-13-2015, 09:18
The only way to prevent that kind of human-bear encounter is to stop going into the woods.
+
Make peace with the fact that if you want go out in wild places, you can die, possibly by an animal. Take normal precautions, then quit worrying about it.
Remember the guy attacked and killed by the beaver 2 yrs ago? It doesnt take a large animal. Sometimes a tiny insect.
rocketsocks
06-13-2015, 09:57
+
Make peace with the fact that if you want go out in wild places, you can die, possibly by an animal. Take normal precautions, then quit worrying about it.
Remember the guy attacked and killed by the beaver 2 yrs ago? It doesnt take a large animal. Sometimes a tiny insect.
No, don't remember that one, tell me more.
MuddyWaters
06-13-2015, 11:08
No, don't remember that one, tell me more.
Guy saw a beaver and tried to video it, it attacked him. Cut his femoral artery, bled to death. Its on youtube.
Several major arteries arent all that hard to cut on the human body. Almost any animal could kill you with a bite in the right place. It happens.
rocketsocks
06-13-2015, 11:35
Guy saw a beaver and tried to video it, it attacked him. Cut his femoral artery, bled to death. Its on youtube.
Several major arteries arent all that hard to cut on the human body. Almost any animal could kill you with a bite in the right place. It happens.
Wow, that's crazy, thanks Muddy Waters.
Everyone seems to forget...the dude was just sleeping in his hammock, period. This bear went after him, not his clothes, not a freakin' candybar:rolleyes:...only him.
The only way to prevent that kind of human-bear encounter is to stop going into the woods.
Nah. Dig deeper. You rarely to never receive a full accounting of these events especially in media reports. You have to ask questions. Something triggered the response. Normally Black bears don't go around pulling humans from their hammocks while sleeping for nothing. There's a cause and effect relationship. Something triggered the response. The trigger almost always can be traced back to human behavior. Why can't humans except their role in these interactions?
MuddyWaters
06-13-2015, 17:20
Nah. Dig deeper. You rarely to never receive a full accounting of these events especially in media reports. You have to ask questions. Something triggered the response. Normally Black bears don't go around pulling humans from their hammocks while sleeping for nothing. There's a cause and effect relationship. Something triggered the response. The trigger almost always can be traced back to human behavior. Why can't humans except their role in these interactions?
+
It does not have to be anything YOU do either.
Established campsites and other peoples usage recently can create problems.
I have found uneaten food and garbage stashed under rocks. Seen people pour out water from boiling pasta right by their tents.
If a bear got food there recently, they will be back and more aggressive.
Nah. Dig deeper. You rarely to never receive a full accounting of these events especially in media reports. You have to ask questions. Something triggered the response. Normally Black bears don't go around pulling humans from their hammocks while sleeping for nothing. There's a cause and effect relationship. Something triggered the response. The trigger almost always can be traced back to human behavior. Why can't humans except their role in these interactions?
Don't agree with you on this - Rogue bear- rogue humans- rogue dogs - there are crazy's in every species.
If a bear got food there recently, they will be back and more aggressive.
While it's impossible to rule this out, it's not normative behavior. "An Alaska study found that In 68% (13 of 19) of black bear incidents involving bear spray bears were either acting curious or were searching for food or garbage. Of these bears, none acted aggressively toward people while in pursuit of human foods." From an Alaska Black Bear study on incidents involving bear spray. Most fatal attacks are by lone males and don't involve food, excepting you as the meal.
Nah. Dig deeper. You rarely to never receive a full accounting of these events especially in media reports. You have to ask questions. Something triggered the response. Normally Black bears don't go around pulling humans from their hammocks while sleeping for nothing. There's a cause and effect relationship. Something triggered the response. The trigger almost always can be traced back to human behavior. Why can't humans except their role in these interactions?
i work in the media and i have learned over the years not to trust anything anyone says...........that goes from everybody from the elected officials, law enforcement, the guy at the gas station, the teenager grocery bagger all the way down to the general public....
the general public is the worst............
facts dont become facts after a certain point..............
now going back to asking offiicials for facts----i can ask all i want----but, its really up to them to determine the flow of information......they can tell me as much as they want, or they can tell me very little....
and with the way the news organizations are nowadaze, thats the best that can be done......
we wouldnt be able to do our own independent investigation or anything like that-----especially with the ratio of news stories that we do.........
yes, we could have a debate about how news organizations have gone down hill over the years but thats for a different thread.....
with all that being said----i have no idea if what is being told--------that they did everything proper in the backcountry as is reported-------or if the kid had some snacks in his hammock.............or if he smelled like a freshly fried trout..........
and yeah......something triggered that bear alright....
bears that are in the popular front country sites, along with the popular backcountry sites have associated that a pack means food of some sort.......
this happens every year when packs get "stolen" from shelters like russell field and cosby knob...
read the journals there-----typcially it wont take many pages to hear a story about a pack theft from a bear.............or a bear visiting the shelter at night......
since other gear can also resemble packs in bears eyes----like a hammock----and that bear knows if it opens it up, there could be food.....
in this incident it was a human.......
at the end off the day----we will never know 100% what happened in this incident....
we can only learn from it and go on..........
Traveler
06-14-2015, 06:57
at the end off the day----we will never know 100% what happened in this incident....
we can only learn from it and go on..........
Excellent point, and perhaps the chief driver why people discuss these events and are curious about the circumstances.
Offshore
06-14-2015, 09:17
From a research paper on bear attacks:
"Our impression is that any activity that brings people and black bear into possible close proximity may very rarely be associated with fatal attack. Bear cayenne pepper spray was not used for defence during any of the fatal attacks."
Only the recent NJ attack seems like pepper spray would have made a difference as the hikers were not surprised and would have had time to deploy the spray. Pepper spray has been used in a few aggressive bear situations, perhaps if it hadn't the outcome would have been fatal. Either way it's very unlikely that you'll ever need it and perhaps you should carry it if only for the 2 legged varmits.
Bear spray is illegal to possess in NJ, although a lot of local outfitters, including REI, sell it. I don't see a lot of people carrying in (openly, at least) on the trails in NJ. The other thing about the fatal attack in NJ is that it was in a fairly small preserve, not one of the large state forests or parks that the AT goes through. The difference being the preserve is basically surrounded by fully developed suburbs, so any bears there are likely used to humans and associate them with food sources. I was on day hike near Waywayanda on Friday and had the pleasure of spending some time with a thru hiker who told me that he had four bear encounters on the NJ section of the AT from the Delaware Water Gap to where we met at Pochuck Boardwalk. He said that all of them ran away once he made himself known.
Pedaling Fool
06-14-2015, 10:18
Nah. Dig deeper. You rarely to never receive a full accounting of these events especially in media reports. You have to ask questions. Something triggered the response. Normally Black bears don't go around pulling humans from their hammocks while sleeping for nothing. There's a cause and effect relationship. Something triggered the response. The trigger almost always can be traced back to human behavior. Why can't humans except their role in these interactions?
Dogwood, my dear, dear friend :D
I agree that you rarely never receive the full accounting of these events....And it's true that bears don't normally going around in pulling people from their tents/hammocks, but it does happen. The cause and effect relationship in many of these cases are no different than the cause and effect of a lion taking down an antelope.
This doesn't seem to be a normal case of a habituated bear, granted we are still waiting for more information, so I'm still not saying that was the case here, but all the markers are looking that way as of now.
I completely accept my (and other humans) role in habituated bears, but then you got them very rare cases....
As was discussed in the other thread on this topic, lets not confuse problems caused by habituated bears vs. bears on the hunt.
BTW, if you do "dig deeper" into this story, please let us know what caused this attack in you opinion.
See here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html?_r=0
Excerpt:
He might be surprised, then, by a new study that found that black bears — the most common bears in North America — have killed only 63 people in the United States and Canada over the last 109 years.
The study also found, contrary to popular perception, that the black bears most likely to kill are not mothers protecting cubs. Most attacks, 88 percent, involved a bear on the prowl, likely hunting for food. And most of those predators, 92 percent, were male.
“Mother bears, whenever they feel threatened or a person is too close, they act very aggressively,” said Stephen Herrero, the study’s lead author. “They make noise, they swat the ground with their paws and they run at people. They want to make you think that they’ll eat you alive, but they almost always stop.”
By contrast, “the kind of bear you need to be afraid of is not feeling threatened by you — it’s testing you out as a possible prey item,” said Dr. Herrero, a professor emeritus at the University of Calgary. “It’s quiet. It stalks you just like a lion might stalk you.”
Given that there are about 900,000 black bears in North America, the number of attacks is small, but it has increased as both the human and bear populations have grown. Eighty-six percent of attacks occurred between 1960 and 2009, 17 of those since 2000.
“It’s not an increase in hungry bears,” said Dr. Herrero. “It’s simply more and more people out there interacting with bears.”