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squeezebox
06-11-2015, 01:31
2 weeks ago I was climbing down the rock field south of Waynesborough PA, I took a turn behind a tree instead of in front of it. I fell about 3 ft. and fell directly on my shoulder with a 40 lb pack. I was able to scramble back up, but my shoulder was hurt, not able to carry my pack, too much pain. Thinking a while I decided to call 911.

911- 911 can I help you
me - I'm a hiker in a rock field just south of town, I fell about 3 ft off a rock and hurt my shoulder, can you send someone to help me walk out of here?
911- do you need an ambulance?
me- no I need 1 person to carry my pack and help me walk out of here.
911- we can send an ambulance with a team of paramedics, we have the equipment to evacuate you.
me - I can walk. can't you call a local hiking club or outfitter to find someone to help me walk out of here?
911- We don't have those numbers. Don't you need an ambulance?
me - no

They called back in 5 min. and repeated the conversation.
The Park service called back 5 min after that and repeated the conversation.

I waited a while for another hiker to come by. Late in the day, That did not happen, so I put up my tent for the night. luckily there was a fairly flat spot.
In the morning I started packing up, figured someone would come by.
Another call from 911 another call from Park service.
Before finishing packing up 4 experienced day hikers came by. I explained my situation, and asked for help.
1 person took the others pack, 1 took mine, another walked behind me, they decided uphill was shorter. in about 1/4 mile or more we were at the lookout above Waynesborough PA. I called the B&B asked for a ride, another call from Park service. in a bit the B&B lady was there, took me to the doc in a box. No broken collarbone. But the soft tissue damage would take a while to heal. as well as the heel blisters.
I'm still disappointed that 911 is so rigid and is unable to meet peoples needs that are not actually in danger of dying.

fiddlehead
06-11-2015, 01:52
Sounds like a computer.
My insurance company sounded about the the same when I tried to change some coverage. .
The way the world is going I guess.
Hope you are feeling better.

Tuckahoe
06-11-2015, 03:57
Squeezebox, you called 911, an emergency number intended for immediate emergency response from police, fire or EMT and expected them to send out just a porter? I think you're the one with unreasonable expectations here.

peakbagger
06-11-2015, 05:16
I agree with the prior poster, 911 works on Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs). When you call the dispatcher they have a written set of instructions for every possible emergency. Before they will do anything, they have to determine if you are having an emergency and you unfortunately didn't meet the threshold. If you were capable of walking out it wasn't an emergency. Much as it is important to you, recovering your pack is not an emergency, thus the reasoning was, you were capable of walking out and therefore didn't need a rescue.

In NH the 911 system would have routed you to Fish and Game who deal with hiker incidents. I expect in rural PA, hikers incidents are a rare but in NH, they are frequent. NHF&G will ask you questions and decide if you have an emergency, most likely they would decide it wasn't as what you wanted was a porter to carry your pack. At their discretion, they may contact a local volunteer S&R organization or if in the Whites either the AMC or RMC huts staffs to assist. They may or may not carry your pack out. If you really want your pack, they may refer you to a local mountain guide who will get your credit card number and gladly meet you. Incidents like this happen frequently in NH and usually other day hikers will help like your case. Unfortunately, some folks don't like the response so they will lie about their condition, if F&G responds they will make an assessment and may elect to charge for the rescue and the NH Hike Safe Card may not cover it.

As was relayed to me by a S&R member years ago, they are there for emergencies, not inconveniences, that definitely applies to the 911 system.

Starchild
06-11-2015, 06:09
911 is a highly trained professional 24/7 emergency service. You call them, explain the situation and they put the plan into action - that's what they do. They are the ones in control and make the calls (given their training, expertise and SOP's). The one requesting help has already turned over control by the request. Your only choice is to refuse their service, they don't have any obligation to offer help in the way you want it, and in many cases they can not do that.

'Walking you out of there' (your request) is evacuation, your pack is irrelevant, your ability to walk out if assisted is still evacuation. To them also you are not medically qualified to make a determination as to the state of your injury.

They provided the appropriate response in your 911 transcript. If you would have taken them up on it you could have had the paramedics helped hiked you out but refused transport once you got to the trailhead.


From what you wanted a more proper number would have been 411 where you could ask for a guide service or outfitter (911 is not such a number to call fro such services). Although you might not have been able to call them as 911 gets all towers, 411 only your service providers.

Also your story seems like your exit to a trailhead, if I'm reading this correctly, was only 1/4 a mile away uphill which you could not do alone, yet you could set up your tent. Perhaps you could have abandoned the pack (maybe with a note, maybe hid it for later recovery), and walked out???

Lone Wolf
06-11-2015, 06:46
you did not need to call 911

daddytwosticks
06-11-2015, 07:12
Every person reacts differently to situations. It's easy to second guess. If it was me, I'd probably abandoned the pack and walked out. Glad you are OK. It could have ended up much worse. :)

FlyFishNut
06-11-2015, 07:47
Unfortunately, had you been an indigent in any city around the US you could get transported for having a cold or a headache and not even have to foot the bill!

I'm not saying that you needed to call 911, I would have just left my pack and hoped no one stole it or left a note on it if possible.

Every day people use ambulances for the dumbest reasons, wasting time and costing taxpayers money. I would bet EMS wouldn't chastised you at all if you had fallen on a street somewhere and they were called to transport you, but up in the hills it is a different story.

slbirdnerd
06-11-2015, 07:53
I'm glad you got help and are ok, squeezebox. Buuuuut, I agree this wasn't a 9-1-1 call situation. Having been the public information officer for the National 9-1-1 Association, I was forever explaining to the media what 9-1-1's intended purpose is, and that yes, they do have procedures and protocols they must follow. One of the biggest problem 9-1-1 comm centers have is that when someone calls without a life-threatening emergency, they are taking up a line and an operator who then may not be available to someone who IS having a life threatening emergency. I realize it can be difficult not to panic when you're hurt, but please use 9-1-1 responsibly.

I recommend everyone going out into the backcountry take a wilderness first aid course. Even if you don't intent to use the training to help others, it's incredibly beneficial yourself to help you understand different injuries, learn how to keep calm, and know what constitutes an extraction versus a walk-out scenario. I took one through NOLS and it was a huge confidence booster with this kind of stuff.

Traveler
06-11-2015, 08:08
I recommend everyone going out into the backcountry take a wilderness first aid course. Even if you don't intent to use the training to help others, it's incredibly beneficial yourself to help you understand different injuries, learn how to keep calm, and know what constitutes an extraction versus a walk-out scenario. I took one through NOLS and it was a huge confidence booster with this kind of stuff.

Great idea. Not only valuable (and in a lot of instances usable) knowledge to help others, the self rescue component of these first aid courses can literally make the difference between life and death.

Pedaling Fool
06-11-2015, 08:24
Squeezebox, you called 911, an emergency number intended for immediate emergency response from police, fire or EMT and expected them to send out just a porter? I think you're the one with unreasonable expectations here.I agree. 911 service is set up for emergencies. Sometimes asking too little is too much, not the fault of the 911 service.

Grampie
06-11-2015, 09:57
Squeezebox, If the 911 call did bring help would you have been willing to pay for that help? Too many folks in the outdoors today think that if they have a cell phone they can just call when they have a problem and someone will come and solve it. The 911 folks are there to help those with real life threatening proplems not hikers who can't, no longer carry their pack.

Offshore
06-11-2015, 10:16
2 weeks ago I was climbing down the rock field south of Waynesborough PA, I took a turn behind a tree instead of in front of it. I fell about 3 ft. and fell directly on my shoulder with a 40 lb pack. I was able to scramble back up, but my shoulder was hurt, not able to carry my pack, too much pain. Thinking a while I decided to call 911.

911- 911 can I help you
me - I'm a hiker in a rock field just south of town, I fell about 3 ft off a rock and hurt my shoulder, can you send someone to help me walk out of here?
911- do you need an ambulance?
me- no I need 1 person to carry my pack and help me walk out of here.
911- we can send an ambulance with a team of paramedics, we have the equipment to evacuate you.
me - I can walk. can't you call a local hiking club or outfitter to find someone to help me walk out of here?
911- We don't have those numbers. Don't you need an ambulance?
me - no

They called back in 5 min. and repeated the conversation.
The Park service called back 5 min after that and repeated the conversation.

I waited a while for another hiker to come by. Late in the day, That did not happen, so I put up my tent for the night. luckily there was a fairly flat spot.
In the morning I started packing up, figured someone would come by.
Another call from 911 another call from Park service.
Before finishing packing up 4 experienced day hikers came by. I explained my situation, and asked for help.
1 person took the others pack, 1 took mine, another walked behind me, they decided uphill was shorter. in about 1/4 mile or more we were at the lookout above Waynesborough PA. I called the B&B asked for a ride, another call from Park service. in a bit the B&B lady was there, took me to the doc in a box. No broken collarbone. But the soft tissue damage would take a while to heal. as well as the heel blisters.
I'm still disappointed that 911 is so rigid and is unable to meet peoples needs that are not actually in danger of dying.

But 911 is exactly for IDLH (immediately dangerous to life and health) situations where people are in danger of dying, not general medical transport. The prolonged initial conversation you had with 911 pretty much demonstrates that this was not an IDLH situation.

To quote the NH Hikesafe site:

You are responsible for yourself, so be prepared:


With knowledge and gear. Become self reliant by learning about the terrain, conditions, local weather and your equipment before you start.
To leave your plans. Tell someone where you are going, the trails you are hiking, when you will return and your emergency plans.
To stay together. When you start as a group, hike as a group, end as a group. Pace your hike to the slowest person.
To turn back. Weather changes quickly in the mountains. Fatigue and unexpected conditions can also affect your hike. Know your limitations and when to postpone your hike. The mountains will be there another day.
For emergencies. Even if you are headed out for just an hour, an injury, severe weather or a wrong turn could become life threatening. Don’t assume you will be rescued; know how to rescue yourself.
To share the hiker code with others


Items 2 and 5 apply to your situation in particular. When I hike alone, I always leave my plans with someone at home and text or call when going on and getting off trail. I also carry a SPOT satellite messenger that is set up with an SOS button for true IDLH situations and and second help button that is set to notify my emergency contact that I need assistance (that doesn't rise to the 911 level) at my location.

In this situation, I would have just hidden my pack and walked out rather than spend the night and take the risk that my unassessed injuries might worsen to the level of a true 911 emergency. I am very glad that you were not seriously injured. By sharing this experience, the good that comes from this is that it's a lesson leaned for you and the larger WB community.

Bronk
06-11-2015, 10:22
If I knew there was enough daylight to walk to the nearest road I would have left my pack behind and that is what I would have done. Otherwise I would have done what you did...camped the night and walked out the next day. 911 is not a concierge service that will serve up whatever you want. Sounds to me like they went above and beyond what was required of them, checking back with you several times to make sure you were OK. I once met a guy who fell and dislocated his shoulder near Clingman's Dome in late winter before the road was open. He left his pack and walked to Newfound Gap and hitched a ride to the hospital. When he returned 3 days later his pack was right where he left it. Bottom line is you dialed 911 because you didn't want to leave your camping gear behind. In hindsight, doesn't that sound a little ridiculous to you?

imscotty
06-11-2015, 10:23
It sounds to me like sound decisions were made by both sides. I think you were right to call and at least make them aware of your situation. Your injury could have been worst than you realized, judgement may have been impaired, it sounds like they were at least monitoring your situation and that is a positive thing.

I also think that they were correct to not utilize emergency services in a non-emergency situation. Resources are always limited. Imagine how you would have felt if an EMT crew was on the trail attending to you and someone elsewhere in the area died because emergency services could not get back out of the woods in time.

It sounds like you did not panic and took care of yourself, which is great. If you needed treatment that very day, abandoning your pack was certainly an option to consider. I am glad to hear that the hiking community (as they often do) were able to help out. I am glad to hear you will be OK.

Pedaling Fool
06-11-2015, 10:50
It sounds to me like sound decisions were made by both sides. I think you were right to call and at least make them aware of your situation. Your injury could have been worst than you realized, judgement may have been impaired, it sounds like they were at least monitoring your situation and that is a positive thing.

I also think that they were correct to not utilize emergency services in a non-emergency situation. Resources are always limited. Imagine how you would have felt if an EMT crew was on the trail attending to you and someone elsewhere in the area died because emergency services could not get back out of the woods in time.

It sounds like you did not panic and took care of yourself, which is great. If you needed treatment that very day, abandoning your pack was certainly an option to consider. I am glad to hear that the hiking community (as they often do) were able to help out. I am glad to hear you will be OK.The Conciliator:D

O-H-10 Lil Ohio
06-11-2015, 12:17
I know this is going to sound kind of Calais, however my own personal opinion is; don't go into the woods if you don't understand what you're getting into when hiking alone. I'm afraid we're going to see much more of these type of threads in the future .People who believe they are entitled to assistance , people who do not truly understand what an emergency is ,what it takes in the way of help and assistance by local , State, and Federal S&R folks.. Assessing a emergency situation on the trail is a skill in its own. For folks heading out on the trails we recommend you join your hiking clubs take the REI courses, NOL, or any other medical courses before going on your hikes Experience is the best teacher ,we all made mistakes on the trail ,our goal is to eliminate these mistakes and have a better understanding so we can truly enjoy the outdoors and the trail.

Starchild
06-11-2015, 13:18
...People who believe they are entitled to assistance ....

They are entitled to emergency services (as long as they can be contacted and can be safely and done). It's part of our society structure.

Violent Green
06-11-2015, 13:58
This resembles one of those gag posts where someone posts something completely flame worthy and never posts again. "My dog is really aggressive and I don't like putting him on a leash. Will other hikers accept me?" Kind of stuff.


Ryan

Dochartaigh
06-11-2015, 14:47
911 is a highly trained professional 24/7 emergency service.

I've found exactly the opposite. The last time I had to call 911 was when I was kayaking in Wharton State Forest in NJ. The fire was a 1/4 mile from Mullica River Camp, a wilderness campground, with officially no car access allowed although emergency vehicles can make it there via sand roads. I called 911 and reported the forest fire. Here's the rough version of the conversation:

Me: "Hi, I'm in Wharton State Forest and there's a forest fire, I can give you GPS coordinates of where it is."

911 Operator: "What is the address of the fire?"

"I'm in a state forest, there aren't any addresses back here. It's off Mullica Road –a sand access–, about 1/4 mile north of Mullica River Camp, I can give you the exact GPS coordinates of the fire."

"What is the address or cross streets of the fire?"

"I'm in a state forest. There is nothing around here for 10+ miles except for trees, the only road is a dirt road – Mullica River Rd, about a 1/4 mile north of Mullica River Camp. I can give you GPS coordinates"

....it went literally on and on with her asking me about 6 or 7 times for the address as the fire grew in size. I finally said something like "listen, you're on a computer right? With internet access? Why don't you plug these coordinates into Google Maps and it'll show you exactly where the fire is." I guess I got a little testy (I don't know why....it was only a forest fire surrounding me and growing ;) and she finally transferred me to the local fire company which started in with the SAME EXACT "what's the address?" bull****.

--now keep in mind Wharton State Forest is famous for their forest fires. There's several larger ones every single year it seems. The fire department knows all the landmarks in the park, yet still refused to take anything but a street address to send people out. After about 2 or 3 minutes of this BS I literally said "F this" and hung up. Called the park ranger, had a 10 second conversation with him to which he replied "Yeah, 911 and the fire department are useless. I know exactly where that is. I'll send somebody out."

The worst part was the fire department didn't put out anything but decided to do a "controlled burn" which means they burn down all the undergrowth and leave the fire smoking and smoldering all night long and didn't even leave someone overnight to make sure it didn't flare-up again. The campers loved that and the fog of smoke we breathed in all night long...

BirdBrain
06-11-2015, 15:02
I know this is going to sound kind of Calais,....

I know that town sounds like callous.... but at least people now know how to pronounce that Down East town. :D

Dogtra
06-11-2015, 15:33
From the 911.gov website:

When to Call 911

In an emergency, call 911 or your local emergency number immediately from any wired or wireless phone.

An emergency is any situation that requires immediate assistance from the police, fire department or ambulance. Examples include:
•A fire
•A crime, especially if in progress
•A car crash, especially if someone is injured
•A medical emergency, such as someone who is unconscious, gasping for air or not breathing, experiencing an allergic reaction, having chest pain, having uncontrollable bleeding, or any other symptoms that require immediate medical attention

Important: If you’re not sure whether the situation is a true emergency, officials recommend calling 911 and letting the call-taker determine whether you need emergency help.

When you call 911, be prepared to answer the call-taker’s questions, which may include:
•The location of the emergency, including the street address
•The phone number you are calling from
•The nature of the emergency
•Details about the emergency, such as a physical description of a person who may have committed a crime, a description of any fire that may be burning, or a description of injuries or symptoms being experienced by a person having a medical emergency

Remember, the call-taker’s questions are important to get the right kind of help to you quickly.

Be prepared to follow any instructions the call-taker gives you. Many 911 centers can tell you exactly what to do to help in an emergency until help arrives, such as providing step-by-step instructions to aid someone who is choking or needs first aid or CPR.

Finally, do not hang up until the call-taker instructs you to.

If you dial 911 by mistake, or if a child in your home dials 911 when no emergency exists, do not hang up—that could make 911 officials think that an emergency exists, and possibly send responders to your location. Instead, simply explain to the call-taker what happened.

Another Kevin
06-11-2015, 15:36
--now keep in mind Wharton State Forest is famous for their forest fires. There's several larger ones every single year it seems. The fire department knows all the landmarks in the park, yet still refused to take anything but a street address to send people out. After about 2 or 3 minutes of this BS I literally said "F this" and hung up. Called the park ranger, had a 10 second conversation with him to which he replied "Yeah, 911 and the fire department are useless. I know exactly where that is. I'll send somebody out."

The worst part was the fire department didn't put out anything but decided to do a "controlled burn" which means they burn down all the undergrowth and leave the fire smoking and smoldering all night long and didn't even leave someone overnight to make sure it didn't flare-up again. The campers loved that and the fog of smoke we breathed in all night long...

In the unlikely event that I have cell service where I'm hiking, I'd always call the rangers first for backcountry emergencies, because 911 operators are poorly trained to handle them. Being a New York State hiker, I have "DEC Service Dispatch ADK 518-891-0235" and "DEC Service Dispatch Catkills 518-408-5850" in my phone's contact list just in case. If they need to call in the other services, at least they can use their channels to call them, bypass the call-taker and get to someone who actually knows something.

Note that the call-taking procedures work very well in town. Get the address, and find out the details. What a lot of people who complain about the long-winded 911 interview don't know is that help is usually on the way after the first couple of questions. (No, that doesn't excuse your call getting confused on the very first question.) A great many callers say, "Don't ask me all these questions, send help!" without realizing that the first responders have already been dispatched and the questions are to get information while they're en route so that they know what to expect.

Pine barrens are a "fire climax" ecosystem. Not only do they have frequent fires, they need them. Pitch pine can't even reproduce without it. The cones don't open unless they're burnt. Fire suppression in pine barren country creates an environmental disaster. Letting it burn was exactly The Right Thing to do.

Dochartaigh
06-11-2015, 16:43
In the unlikely event that I have cell service where I'm hiking, I'd always call the rangers first for backcountry emergencies, because 911 operators are poorly trained to handle them

There’s no 24/7 park rangers down there unfortunately (and the roving park rangers are part of the state police as of a couple years ago). Both park offices close at 4pm. Since it was after 4pm I called 911, and when that failed I was very happy a ranger stayed a little late and answered the phone at the ranger station.







Pine barrens are a "fire climax" ecosystem. Not only do they have frequent fires, they need them. Pitch pine can't even reproduce without it. The cones don't open unless they're burnt. Fire suppression in pine barren country creates an environmental disaster. Letting it burn was exactly The Right Thing to do.

You’re thinking of some other pine species. Pitch pine trees (Pinus Rigida) can have trees whose cones open naturally every season, and trees which have serotinous cones which need fire to open. The latter are of course more common in the places which have burned over and over again.

Also, the fire department leaving an unsupervised fire to smolder right near an occupied campground with children (with another campground a couple miles away), was most definitely NOT The Right Thing to do.

WalkingStick75
06-11-2015, 17:07
This is NOT a 911 call, so you hurt your shoulder. What would you have done before the advent of the cell phone? You were a 1/4 mile away from a trailhead, drag your pack or stash it in the woods. If you go into the backcountry (and I use that term loosely here) you need to learn SELF RESCUE.

Starchild
06-11-2015, 17:10
In the unlikely event that I have cell service where I'm hiking, I'd always call the rangers first for backcountry emergencies, because 911 operators are poorly trained to handle them. Being a New York State hiker, I have "DEC Service Dispatch ADK 518-891-0235" and "DEC Service Dispatch Catkills 518-408-5850" in my phone's contact list just in case. If they need to call in the other services, at least they can use their channels to call them, bypass the call-taker and get to someone who actually knows something. ...
This has been going back and forth in hiking clubs and the like for quite some time. You do state the advantages about calling other agencies but 911 has the advantages of priority cellular access, plus the conversation is recorded and can be heard back and more and more 911 centers are becoming cellular GPS equip. which means they may be able to see your location. They are also obligated to respond, even if they are unable to hear your voice or get a partial message.

FatMan
06-11-2015, 17:26
A bogus 911 call. Call a friend who can contact a local hiker club for assistance. Drop your pack and walk out and get help. Someone can always go back and get your pack. Heck, even if your pack is lost/stolen the value of your pack is a heck of lot less than the cost of a rescue mission.

911 is for emergencies. Sorry but your sore shoulder doesn't measure up to that level.

But I am impressed with the 911 followup. At least is showed they were prepared to take action if this did escalate to "emergency" status.

Lone Wolf
06-11-2015, 17:29
i work in EMS. 90% of the 911 calls we get are non-emergencies. the system is abused

Tuckahoe
06-11-2015, 18:01
They are entitled to emergency services (as long as they can be contacted and can be safely and done). It's part of our society structure.

I know you want to believe that... but emergency service, and protection by fire and police are not an entitlement.

Harrison Bergeron
06-11-2015, 18:14
Let me get this straight. You called 911 because you didn't want to leave your pack behind to walk the quarter mile to the trailhead? Because you had a sore shoulder? And when 911 wouldn't send a sherpa for your pack, you managed to con another hiker into carrying it for you?

Come on, Squeezebox, this is a joke, right?

Wow. Reminds me of the 50-something fat lady I passed last month at some gap in Georgia. She was sitting on a log and whining that she just couldn't go on and didn't know what to do. I suggested that she walk up that forest road right there until she got a cell phone signal and call for a shuttle. I even gave her the only number I had -- a card I'd picked up for Top of Georgia.

Later that day, I was trudging the quarter mile back up the trail from camp to the water source when I passed a teenager carrying a modest backpack on his back and an enormous monster of a pack on his front. I thought to myself -- now that's something you don't see every day!

About an hour later back at camp, I saw the fat lady putting up her full-dome Walmart tent and put two-and-two together. Instead of calling the shuttle, she'd conned some poor kid into carrying her huge pack three miles over a mountain, and the only thing wrong with her was she was tired.

I'm all for fat people (like me) taking up hiking, but some people ought to do it at the mall.

Vegan Packer
06-11-2015, 18:26
Assuming that there is cell service in an area, then learning if and where to call for given situations, before the trip, is a good thing to add to the list of preparation items. I am purchasing evacuation insurance before my upcoming trips, and you can be sure that I will be carrying my card with their contact number along with me. Beyond that, I'll carry a Personal Locator Beacon, a 17 ounce brick, no doubt, but one that I will be grateful to have with me, should I need to use it.

squeezebox
06-11-2015, 19:37
Squeezebox here. You're right I was wrong. I didn't know who else to call. After listening to you I have changed my attitude. Thank you.

MuddyWaters
06-11-2015, 19:50
Not terribly uncommon unfortunately.
Many people break mentally at the first signs of real difficulty.
The mind gives up long before the body, everytime.

Sooner or later, you WILL get hurt if you hike enough.
It may be a sprained ankle, stress fracture, severe tendonitis, but you will be incapacitated.
And your only option, barring something like a real broken leg, and maybe not even that, is.....keep walking to the next road, or town.
You will amaze yourself , you CAN do it. It is possible. Its just slow and painful.

rocketsocks
06-11-2015, 20:45
No sweat Squeezebox, truth is none of us were there feelin' your pain and hIng to access ourselves after tKing a teeter. Glad your alright. Also wanna add that in the future should something happen again, don't take this thread as a do not call. If you need help, you need help, If this were a phantom chest pain, you always call, it could save your life...just didn't want you to walk away from this thread feelin' beat down. It's all good, keep on hikin'

Lone Wolf
06-11-2015, 20:51
No sweat Squeezebox, truth is none of us were there feelin' your pain and hIng to access ourselves after tKing a teeter. Glad your alright. Also wanna add that in the future should something happen again, don't take this thread as a do not call. If you need help, you need help, If this were a phantom chest pain, you always call, it could save your life...just didn't want you to walk away from this thread feelin' beat down. It's all good, keep on hikin'

socks is right. sorry if i came off as a hardazz

Another Kevin
06-11-2015, 20:53
i work in EMS. 90% of the 911 calls we get are non-emergencies. the system is abused

Perhaps. But I'm sure you'll also agree that you don't want someone agonizing over whether their emergency is a real one or not.

My most recent 911 calls:



60yo female with symptoms of a grand mal seizure. (Diabetic in hypoglycemia, as it turned out. Glugagon shot revived her. Medics transported anyway. Good thing, too, she crashed again in the ED.)
Pile of debris in the center lane of a freeway, after hours, and the cops weren't answering the non-emergency number. (911 operator: "Yeah, we got it, someone's on the way already, thanks for calling!) I stopped and placed flares, but some of the stuff was just too heavy for me to shift alone. The firefighters dragged some of the pieces with a come-along.
Obviously impaired driver traveling in the wrong direction on a divided surface street - when he wasn't on the median or shoulder.
16-month-old female overset a teapot. Burns turned out to be second degree and less than 15% of body surface, but better to pack the burnt area in sterile gauze with isotonic saline, and let the ED evaluate. Babies can be brittle.
6-day-old female, breathing rapid and shallow, no cry when pinched, poor skin tone (skin on back of hand remained gathered when pinched). ED needed to do a popliteal vein tap to start a line.
33yo female in a wrecked car on a utility stanchion on a freeway off-ramp. Driver's door inoperable. Arterial bleeding from right leg, unknown internal injuries. Buddy went in passenger seat to apply pressure to wound, I autopatched 911 on an amateur radio and got in the back seat to hold the driver's head and preserve cervical alignment until the pros got there with a Hurst tool and a spine board.
22yo male at bottom of a stairwell with visibly deformed knee (translocation of patella), claimed inability to walk.
(Another one where it was radio rather than 911.) 19-year-old male ultramarathonner near timberline on the Moosilauke carriage road with a fracture of the right tibia just above the malleolus. Helicopters couldn't operate in that day's weather, so a bunch of us, pros and civilians alike, humped the guy out on a litter down the Snapper ski trail to the Ravine Lodge.
Brush fire in a vacant lot. Called 911, and then went to check it out. Beat most of it out with a broom by the time the truck arrived. (Brother was fetching a garden hose.) Firefighters wet down the area and said, "thanks for calling!"


A sufficiently jaded emergency service worker would, I'm sure, argue that one or more of these situations wasn't a 'real' emergency. I'm just-a-civilian, with perhaps a trifle more first-responder training than the average bear. I wanted backup in all of them. And I'm not all that bad at assessing situations.

Don't set the bar for a 'real' emergency too high, or you'll have the old fogy who decides that he won't call 911 and misses the golden hour because what if his chest pain turns out not to be a heart attack?

But yeah, I suppose you're talking about things that are a bit more obviously non-emergencies. Maybe not quite to the "OMG! We're out of Perrier!" level.

Edited to add: Lone Wolf's post above and mine crossed in the mail.

Sarcasm the elf
06-11-2015, 20:56
Squeezebox here. You're right I was wrong. I didn't know who else to call. After listening to you I have changed my attitude. Thank you.

Just to put this in perspective: In the smallish town that I grew up in people would commonly call 911 to ask for driving directions, to complain about routine nuisances in their neighborhood such as dogs barking and children playing loudly and to occasionally report "unsavory" people walking down their street when in truth the caller was just racist.

You had an actual accident in the woods and sustained an injury. While it didn't turn out to be serious enough to warrant an emergency response, you were in fact injured and in the woods unsure of how to safely deal with the situation. I don't think that calling 911 in that situation should be seen as abusing the system, especially because you were honest with them that you were injured but believed yourself able to self rescue. They knew where you were and what your situation was, they checked up on you the next day to make sure you were safe and they did all this without having to send out any responders unnecessarily. Your request for them to have someone carry your pack was not one that was appropriate but I think that informing them of your situation, especially if you were unsure of the severity of the injury was prudent, and for that part I don't think you deserve to be browbeaten about it.

[EDIT: Crap, how many times did I just use the word situation?]

rocketsocks
06-11-2015, 21:01
i work in EMS. 90% of the 911 calls we get are non-emergencies. the system is abused
No doubt, and I didn't think you were being a hardazz, just tellin it like it is. I like that.

BirdBrain
06-11-2015, 21:06
Don't set the bar for a 'real' emergency too high,....

But yeah, I suppose you're talking about things that are a bit more obviously non-emergencies. Maybe not quite to the "OMG! We're out of Perrier!" level.


What if it is coffee that I am out of?

Sarcasm the elf
06-11-2015, 21:15
What if it is coffee that I am out of?

Before or after the caffeine withdrawal caused you to strangle someone? :rolleyes:

squeezebox
06-12-2015, 01:47
Live and learn.
it was a hard day for me. I was tired. misread some signage. should have backed up and reevaluated signage. once injured evaluate injury as serious or not. I did that and decided it was not life threatening. I did wait a while for some other hiker to come by. Should not have called 911 it was not a serious enough injury. That was my 1st experience stealth camping. I had food and water and shelter. I was okay to spend the night. I should have calmed down and just wait till morning. I could have tried to climb back out but I was very concerned about a possible broken collar bone.
Once again I've learned from you folks and learned from the experience.
Thanks!

rickb
06-12-2015, 07:26
I think we have all learned something from this thread, but I am not so sure you were 100% wrong to call 911.

By definition, a fall can be unsettling and disorienting.

Your shoulder hurt like hell and you were concerned about getting out of the woods-- who wouldn't be?

But with a call to 911, they had the capacity to ask other questions that you might not have considered in the situation. I would not have expected you to be in a total clear state of mind. Were I taking the call I would have probed about any possible head injury-- I have no expertise in all that, but I am smart enough to know a back country concussion is a big deal. And what about shock? Is that even a concern if you had broken one or more bones and decided to spend the night?

Probably not, who knows?

It seems like the Ranger who called you back might have recognized that kind of complication can happen. That could well be why he called back.

Of course if you hadn't called 911, the ranger would not have had that opportunity. Too be direct, I think you did the right thing in calling.

I think the problem with 911 call is that the response and expection is often binary-- nothing at all or everything they'd would do for John Kerry had he made the call.

In in the end, I think this is an example where everything went very right-- from you making the call, to the measured response (the follow up calls) to getting help from fellow hikers, to a better understanding of things.

I want to thank you for sharing the experience. it's good to think about these things in advance.

rocketsocks
06-12-2015, 07:45
I think we have all learned something from this thread, but I am not so sure you were 100% wrong to call 911.

By definition, a fall can be unsettling and disorienting.

Your shoulder hurt like hell and you were concerned about getting out of the woods-- who wouldn't be?

But with a call to 911, they had the capacity to ask other questions that you might not have considered in the situation. I would not have expected you to be in a total clear state of mind. Were I taking the call I would have probed about any possible head injury-- I have no expertise in all that, but I am smart enough to know a back country concussion is a big deal. And what about shock? Is that even a concern if you had broken one or more bones and decided to spend the night?

Probably not, who knows?

It seems like the Ranger who called you back might have recognized that kind of complication can happen. That could well be why he called back.

Of course if you hadn't called 911, the ranger would not have had that opportunity. Too be direct, I think you did the right thing in calling.

I think the problem with 911 call is that the response and expection is often binary-- nothing at all or everything they'd would do for John Kerry had he made the call.

In in the end, I think this is an example where everything went very right-- from you making the call, to the measured response (the follow up calls) to getting help from fellow hikers, to a better understanding of things.

I want to thank you for sharing the experience. it's good to think about these things in advance.I agree...good post, good thread.

billnchristy
06-12-2015, 07:47
I agree that the call was not warranted, but were the half a dozen plus calls BACK that he received warranted? If they decided it wasn't an emergency, shouldn't that be the end?

As he put it, they almost harrassed him into an ambulance.

Traveler
06-12-2015, 08:14
I agree that the call was not warranted, but were the half a dozen plus calls BACK that he received warranted? If they decided it wasn't an emergency, shouldn't that be the end?

As he put it, they almost harrassed him into an ambulance.

Once people who perform SAR work are notified of someone having trouble, they tend to monitor the situation. In this instance since cell phone contact had been established, it was a good tool to use and was fairly easy check on the person trying to get out of the forest. As long as that person keeps moving, is alert, communicative, and isn't lost, there is little need to send people in to help. On the other hand, if during that process anything changed they would be able to respond quickly.

911 typically has questions that are asked, sometimes repeatedly like "do you need an ambulance", because many of those who use the number are disorientated and not able to think clearly. It appears both 911 and SAR personnel who were involved handled the circumstance well and in line with best practices.

Starchild
06-12-2015, 08:50
I agree that the call was not warranted, but were the half a dozen plus calls BACK that he received warranted? If they decided it wasn't an emergency, shouldn't that be the end?

As he put it, they almost harrassed him into an ambulance.

Read the post by rickb. His call was appropriate given that the OP states that:
but I was very concerned about a possible broken collar bone. , but he did not like the way they offered to assist. That was the problem, it is common, people do not like to give up control. And fear of a big bill for a ambulance is unfortunately part of that equation for many areas that causes many to forgo early treatment.

But 911 is legally obligated to follow up on every call, to follow it to completion in a report that they are accountable for. If they just wrote him off in the woods as OK and didn't call back they would be held accountable. That is why it's important to call 911, and not direct to the rangers IMHO.



Starchild][/B]They are entitled to emergency services (as long as they can be contacted and can be safely and done). It's part of our society structure.



I know you want to believe that... but emergency service, and protection by fire and police are not an entitlement.



I believe you misinterpreted my quote to make it fit your point, but I ask you to explain your point. You are entitled to call for help (even a free call, even from a cell phone that has no carrier). They are legally obligated to assist to the degree then can and follow up. How are you using the word entitlement that makes emergency services not a entitlement in modern society?

Lyle
06-12-2015, 08:56
Folks seem to be implying that it was the 911 operator who determined that the situation was not an emergency and would not send help. In fact, it was Squeezebox who refused the emergency response. He recognized that the situation did not rise to that level, and he was correct. I'm positive that resources would have been sent if Squeezebox had accepted them. The 911 operator did not make the determination. I also am impressed with the extensive follow-up this system provided. That went above and beyond once a response was refused.

In Michigan, for emergency services purposes, if a caller states an emergency exists, then, officially, an emergency exists. Period. Different levels or response will be sent, but there will be a response. I imagine it's similar across the country. Too much liability to operate in any other way.

As LoneWolf says, most of the 911 "emergencies" are not really emergencies, just a quick, easy, foolproof way of getting immediate transport for medical attention. And a way to have insurance pay for the services - you can't get reimbursed for taking a cab or driving yourself. (not implying anything in Squeezeboxes situation, just a general observation)

Background: I am a recently retired Paramedic who worked full-time in the industry for over 30 years - working the road, teaching all levels of EMS courses, and even spent over a year in dispatch full-time. Couple of quick "war stories" to lillustrate true abuse of the system:

1 - Called at 3AM for a complaint of back pain. We were stationed in the local hospital basement. The address given was a house about two blocks away. When we arrived, the patient was not there. As we spoke with the man who answered the door, he pointed out the patient walking up the street towards us. The patient had no phone, so had walked to the Hospital lobby to use the pay phone to call 911. His reasoning was that he had Medicaid so the ambulance was "free" and he would get seen in the ER sooner if he came in by ambulance.

2 - Called in mid afternoon for a 12 year old with a foot injury. When we arrived at the home, there were three cars in the driveway. About 4 or 5 adults were present at the home. The 12 year old had stubbed her toe. There was no swelling, no redness, no bruising, no deformity. We transported the child 21 miles to the nearest hospital, with the parents following behind in their car. The ambulance was out of service for over an hour. The child was sent home about the same time we cleared the hospital.

The system is definitely abused, but we do not want to discourage folks calling - the other end of the spectrum also exists, folks do not call when they should. I always thought that this is one of the most important aspects of first aid training - learning to recognize an emergency and differentiating it from a non-emergency, always erring on the side of caution. I would stress this aspect a great deal in all the courses I taught. I wish all courses placed more emphasis on it.

Again, Squeezebox did the right thing by refusing an all-out response and self rescuing. He just was not aware of the limitations of what 911 can actually do for you. They are geared and intended for true emergency response, so practice "overkill" when called on for non-emergencies. Better to call and not need the cavalry then to not call and need it.

Scrum
06-12-2015, 08:57
This is one of the more informative threads I have seen on WB - definitely learning from it.

Question - what if I was in a similar situation:
(1) Took a fall and getting out would be difficult and painful, but not life threatening;
(2) No one else passing by on the trail to ask for help.
(3) I brought the telephone numbers for local SAR and/or the non-emergency number for the local PD.
(4) I try to call SAR/local PD non-emergency number (which I had the forethought to to look up and bring with me on the hike) to ask if some can hike in 2 hours to help me hike out so the experience is less painful and risky (not because I don't want to abandon the bag);
(5) NO cell phone coverage with my carrier - but there was priority coverage for 911 through another carrier.

Under these circumstances should I:
A. Call 911 and explain the circumstances;
B. Suck it up and hike out on my own;
C. Set up my tent and wait for another hiker?

No, this is not a question from the new SAT exam, just an effort to learn and keep this interesting discussion going.

Lyle
06-12-2015, 09:22
When in doubt, call 911. They MAY have some resources they can contact, but don't count on it. As stated, they can monitor and contact other officials (Park/Forest Service Rangers, for instance).

Best bet would be to have a local friend know about your trip. If you need help, less than a full-blown rescue, perhaps they could arrange it for you or provide it themselves. Perhaps they can pick you up at an alternate, closer trail head then you planned on exiting, or hike in to meet you as you suggested. I don't know too many SAR members who would or could operate as an individual in either their official or unofficial capacity. Too much liability and they would not want to accept the responsibility if you injured yourself further.

It's an individual call.

WalkingStick75
06-12-2015, 09:33
In following this post it is interesting that everyone starts out with calling 911 when it should start with assessment of the situation and self rescue.

Even Squeezebox arrived to the conclusion that he jumped the gun at calling 911 but he recognized that SAR was not really necessary.

The biggest problem here is that the 911 center failed by not sending someone out, they do not have to send the entire SAR team. I worked for a couple years as a campground host in Alaska at a popular state park, more times than I can count 911 called the ranger to check on an ATV or a hiker in the park and in turn the ranger would contact me as the host to take the ATV and assess the situation. In a situation like this I could radio the ranger or satellite phone directly to 911 and advise if EMS was needed or not. I'm also a retired LEO from Michigan, in the county I worked we had some large state hunting areas, while it wasn't very common to have hurt or lost hunters it did happen and somebody would have been looking for a new job if they didn't respond even if it was to carry their pack and walk them out a 1/4 mile.

rocketsocks
06-12-2015, 09:47
I guess it depends on the level of preparedness one wants when going on a long distance hike. Do you want to research and have on your persons the numbers of every trail club, angel, shuttler up and down the trail who may be able to help in the event of a minor emergency? If I needed help and had internet working, and it was not an emergency, I post here on WB and see if someone was able to help me out, it really is a great resource.

Bronk
06-12-2015, 15:21
As Lone Wolf said, the vast majority of calls made to 911 are not true emergencies. An emergency is when life or property are in imminent danger. Squeezebox's situation didn't rise to that level, though there was a very real potential for it to escalate to that level. And I have to say I'm impressed that Squeezebox was able to admit his mistake...few people are willing to humble themselves like that. As to the complaints some have of 911 operators getting hung up on the address, it might help to understand that the computer systems that 911 operators use to track and dispatch calls are very dependent upon addressing...when they type an address into their computer that location tells them which police department, fire department and ambulance services serve that area...even a small rural 911 center may dispatch for more than a dozen different agencies. If you tell them what road you are on they need a reference point on that road, which would be the nearest intersecting road. Because these computer systems are address dependent, and the location of the emergency is the most important thing, they will most definitely be fixated upon that. If they can't get your location to go into their computer, they get hung up and it becomes more difficult for them to get the ball rolling. You can give them GPS, but they can't type a GPS into their addressing system the way they can a physical address or road intersection. They then have to look at maps to figure out exactly where you are, then determine which agencies provide service in that area, which may be tricky in some jurisdictions. Whereas with an address all of that information goes automatically through the computer system and resources can be dispatched with the touch of a button. Usually as soon as a location and nature of the emergency can be established that button is pressed. If you can't give them a location in a way that their computer system understands then you are wasting time.

10-K
06-12-2015, 15:27
You made a judgement call.

The thing about decisions is that we make good ones and bad ones. Unfortunately, there's no way to know 100% of the time in advance if we're making good ones. That's what makes it a decision.

I wouldn't worry about it - it's over.

Harrison Bergeron
06-12-2015, 15:42
What if it is coffee that I am out of?

Tough call! I guess I'd have to say that if you can't figure out how much real coffee to take with you, you should confine your hiking to the mall, where there is always a Starbucks handy.
It is actually possible to exist without coffee for several days in an emergency, so you should be able to reach a trailhead without calling 911. If you absolutely can't make it to the trailhead without coffee, I'm going to have to be a hardass about this and say tough! You should have planned better!

BirdBrain
06-12-2015, 15:53
Tough call! I guess I'd have to say that if you can't figure out how much real coffee to take with you, you should confine your hiking to the mall, where there is always a Starbucks handy.
It is actually possible to exist without coffee for several days in an emergency, so you should be able to reach a trailhead without calling 911. If you absolutely can't make it to the trailhead without coffee, I'm going to have to be a hardass about this and say tough! You should have planned better!

Thanks. I needed the blunt answer. I will try to be prepared and will suck it up if I burn through my coffee too fast. :) Just kidding. I doubt I would have the ability to remember the number for 911 if I ever ran out of coffee.

rickb
06-12-2015, 16:42
I think the best question to ask is not what we (think) we would do in the backcountry if we thought we might have broken a bone, but what we would do if our wife, daughter, or mother thought she had.

Hey honey, let me splint that up for you-- you will be fine. Nothing to worry about sweetie, you will be back with your softball team in no time-- who needs a Sam splint when I have carbon fiber tent poles-- they are actually better. Puncture-smuncuter, broken ribs always hurt-- lets get out of here, we will stop for ice cream on the way home. I understand you are a bit nauseous dear -- but don't worry I am too. 911? Screw that, they have more imortant stuff to deal with-- not to mention our insurance might not cover any assistance. Are we still in NH?

Or not. If it turns out you have two different standards for calling in help, well, that doesn't make sense at all.

Slo-go'en
06-12-2015, 17:55
It seems a lot of hikers have fallen down and broke something or other this year. Some make it out on their own and some don't. Unless you got a bone sticking out the side of your leg, it can be a tough call.

If you fall and land on your shoulder it's pretty easy to break the collar bone. It's also pretty easy to tell you did. I broke mine once (thankfully not on the trail. Stupid accident, but aren't they all?) and I figured the bone wasn't suppose to move when I pushed on it. I also felt a bit nauseous. The collar bone can't be set or cast, so they had me wear what amounted to back pack straps with out the back pack for 6 weeks. And charged me $200 for it (and another $700 for the ER visit and another $200 for a "Specialist" to look at the X rays and say, yea it's broken). I had plenty of backpacks I could have used to do the job if I had known that was all it took to fix it. And lots of Vitamin I.

So, if Squeezebox had broken his collar bone, the best thing to do would have been to put the pack back on - maybe after taking some of the heavy stuff out of it. The pack pulls back the bone and helps ensure the broken end doesn't puncture a lung, which if it does, your in big trouble. A friend of mine broke his collar bone after falling on wet ledge, 3.5 miles from the road. He was able to get help, but they had him carry his pack out for just that reason.

Another Kevin
06-12-2015, 18:00
This is one of the more informative threads I have seen on WB - definitely learning from it.

Question - what if I was in a similar situation:
(1) Took a fall and getting out would be difficult and painful, but not life threatening;
(2) No one else passing by on the trail to ask for help.
(3) I brought the telephone numbers for local SAR and/or the non-emergency number for the local PD.
(4) I try to call SAR/local PD non-emergency number (which I had the forethought to to look up and bring with me on the hike) to ask if some can hike in 2 hours to help me hike out so the experience is less painful and risky (not because I don't want to abandon the bag);
(5) NO cell phone coverage with my carrier - but there was priority coverage for 911 through another carrier.

Under these circumstances should I:
A. Call 911 and explain the circumstances;
B. Suck it up and hike out on my own;
C. Set up my tent and wait for another hiker?

No, this is not a question from the new SAT exam, just an effort to learn and keep this interesting discussion going.

If you can self-rescue, you do self-rescue.

That said, are you comfortable with evaluating ABCDE (Airway, Breathing, Circulation, Deformity, Environment)? The 'D' (Deformity) part there is key. If you can't walk out wtithout walking on a possible broken bone and you haven't got help, then an SAR activation may be warranted, to avoid doing yourself further permanent injury. You may also need extraction if the trail is difficult enough that you have a significant risk of a life-threatening fall if you try to travel in your current condition.

Can you get out without significant risk of permanent injury? Do so. If you can't - or think it's likely you can't - then call by all means.

Things that definitely warrant 911:



Anaphylaxis
Chest pain
Coma, seizure or convulsion
Confusion (patient disoriented as to person, place or time)
Dizziness with sudden onset
Hallucinations
Drowning
Drug overdose
Dyspnoea (unexplained shortness of breath or painful breathing)
Dysentery (bloody diarrhoea with shock)
Heart attack (see chest pain)
Heatstroke
Paralysis
Unexplained slurring of speech
Sudden blindness
Copious nosebleed that cannot be controlled with pressure and posture.
Sudden weakness on one side of the body
Serious burns (any third degree burn, any second degree burn on face, genitals, or encircling an extremity, any burn exceeding 15% body surface area)
Arterial bleeding
Shock
Compound fracture
Suspected spinal injury, head fracture or concussion
Suspected leg fracture.
Suspected arm fracture if evacuation will necessitate bearing all or part of body weight on hands
Attempted suicide or suicidal threats or statements.
Sudden severe fever with light sensitivity.
Stiff neck with fever and headache.
Fire out of control. (Even if you think you can put it out, call for backup!)
Witnessed felony.
HAZMAT spill
Motor vehicle accident with injury
Odor of gas
Live electrical wires down

I suspect that the things Lone Wolf is complaining about - and the emergency services see far too often - are calls to 911 for the OBVIOUS non-emergencies:




Transport to a doctor's appointment
Get a prescription filled.
Minor cuts or bruises, broken fingers or toes
Patient with chronic pain who has run out of painkillers
Drunk patient vomiting (but not unconscious)
Child with foreign body in nose or ear
Single episode of blood in urine not associated with trauma
Localized allergic reaction
Mild animal bite
Chronic aches and pains
Dental pain
Ear infection
Migraine
Rash
Minor sprains and strains
Burning urination
Vomiting or diarrhoea of short duration
Cold or flu or mild stomach bug
Get quicker attention in the ED
Report a noisy party
Report a power outage
Report a stray dog
Report a broken fire hydrant or burst water pipe
Pay a traffic ticket
Out of gas, flat tire, mechanical breakdown out of traffic
Property damage when suspects have fled scene
Motor vehicle accident
Theft from vehicle
Lost property
Abandoned vehicle
Harassing or obscene phone call
Find out whether someone has been arrested
Curious why an ambulance or police officer is at a neighbour's house
Find out about weather conditions
Find out about school or business closings

And the people who call for reasons on the second list tend to be serial offenders, so a small minority of the population account for a tremendous fraction of Lone Wolf's business.

But - when in doubt, call! 80% of patients with heart attacks, for instance, don't call - because they fear embarrassment or huge bills if they do.

Another Kevin
06-12-2015, 18:16
I've found exactly the opposite. The last time I had to call 911 was when I was kayaking in Wharton State Forest in NJ. The fire was a 1/4 mile from Mullica River Camp, a wilderness campground, with officially no car access allowed although emergency vehicles can make it there via sand roads. I called 911 and reported the forest fire. Here's the rough version of the conversation:

Me: "Hi, I'm in Wharton State Forest and there's a forest fire, I can give you GPS coordinates of where it is."

911 Operator: "What is the address of the fire?"

"I'm in a state forest, there aren't any addresses back here. It's off Mullica Road –a sand access–, about 1/4 mile north of Mullica River Camp, I can give you the exact GPS coordinates of the fire."

"What is the address or cross streets of the fire?"

"I'm in a state forest. There is nothing around here for 10+ miles except for trees, the only road is a dirt road – Mullica River Rd, about a 1/4 mile north of Mullica River Camp. I can give you GPS coordinates"

....it went literally on and on with her asking me about 6 or 7 times for the address as the fire grew in size.

"Near Mullica Road, between Batsto River Road and Quaker Bridge Road" might have got you past the question, by giving the ill-trained operator SOMETHING to enter into the computer. Not very precise, but once someone gets dispatched, they'll call back.

WingedMonkey
06-12-2015, 18:31
What you should have done is made more of an effort to look homeless and set up camp next to the trail.

Someone would have reported you on the ATC hotline.

Then you would have been escorted out of the woods.

:D

Scrum
06-12-2015, 18:37
That said, are you comfortable with evaluating ABCDE (Airway, Breathing, Circulation, Deformity, Environment)? The 'D' (Deformity) part there is key. If you can't walk out wtithout walking on a possible broken bone and you haven't got help, then an SAR activation may be warranted, to avoid doing yourself further permanent injury. You may also need extraction if the trail is difficult enough that you have a significant risk of a life-threatening fall if you try to travel in your current condition.

Can you get out without significant risk of permanent injury? Do so. If you can't - or think it's likely you can't - then call by all means.

Very helpful response AK - thanks. I have trained for and performed ABCDE on others, but for some reason never really thought about evaluating myself. Great advice.

ekeverette
06-12-2015, 19:33
one day at a time squeeze....... one day at a time.......EVEREADY

Fredt4
06-12-2015, 21:35
Excellent discussion and goods points raised. I would suggest that leaving the backpack should be only done after great deliberation. I consider the backpack, and it's contents, as a great source of first aid and shelter which is especially necessary when injured. Many times I read of someone who became disoriented and either died or nearly died because they abandoned their pack that contained every thing they needed until a rescue arrived.

squeezebox
06-13-2015, 00:47
Squeezebox here again.
You can tell I'm a complete newbie, I'm slow the other hiker I started the day with got ahead of me. I did not do a complete ABCDE, ABCD were such non issues I didn't think about them, I tried on my pack and it hurt a lot. on to E I did not calmly evaluate E . As it started getting dark I realized I was there for the night. I knew I probably could do that safely. I believe I was frustrated with not being able to move forward or backward, also in not making my goal for the day. but I could tell I was not in serious, immediate trouble. I did call the B&B lady and she could not think or anyone to send to me. It's a big rock field so nobody would enter it late in the day and finish it, so no traffic. Leaving my pack and climbing out did not come to mind, I would be safer in my tent, in my bag, with my food bag. I hoped someone would come by in the morning and help me, they did.
I learned a lot about trail marker mistakes, and my ability to stay put and wait for help.
Expecting 911 to contact the local sherpa for me was a wrong expectation. they do real emergencies. calling 911 to inform them approx. where I was, was stable and in no immediate danger, I think might have been a reasonable thing to do.

10-K
06-13-2015, 08:21
This reminds me of when I carried a SPOT for a while. My custom message programmed to send my wife was something like:

"Not an emergency - but I need help."

I forget the exact wording but the point was that I wasn't in a life-threatening situation but I needed help.

Bronk
06-13-2015, 10:09
I find it difficult to get mad at people who abuse 911 because the reality is that there are some major metro areas in this country that encourage everyone to dial 911 for just about everything because they have one large call center that takes all of the calls and they don't differentiate between emergency and non-emergency calls for police, fire and ems...in those places 911 is the only number to call to report a stray dog or your neighbor who won't turn down his loud stereo.

Another Kevin
06-13-2015, 12:00
I find it difficult to get mad at people who abuse 911 because the reality is that there are some major metro areas in this country that encourage everyone to dial 911 for just about everything because they have one large call center that takes all of the calls and they don't differentiate between emergency and non-emergency calls for police, fire and ems...in those places 911 is the only number to call to report a stray dog or your neighbor who won't turn down his loud stereo.

More and more of them are realizing that was a mistake, because usually the caller actually can do the first level of triage. Big cities like New York and Chicago are gradually rolling out 211 for human services (usually staffed by United Way or AIRS), 311 as a non-emergency city government line, 511 for traffic, travel and transit information, so that the 911 operators don't get choked with the other stuff.

What's more frustrating to me is the difficulty of getting to emergency services in another place. (How does someone who happens to be in Schenectady County get in touch with the sheriff's department in Ulster County, for instance?) I try to leave emergency service contact information in the safety plan that I leave with my wife, but it's sometimes insanely difficult to find it, because "call 911" is the universal answer. Well, Schenectady County service dispatch isn't going to be a lot of use if it's Franklin County that I'm lost in!

MuddyWaters
06-13-2015, 19:52
Nothing wrong with notifying authorities,and keeping them appraised of your progress if injured.
There can be unseen internal injuries that become life threatening a short time later.
Or condition can worsen to point rescue is really needed.

I had an ex boss that died last week.
He was hit on head by a branch in his yard while cleaning up.
Seemed ok when he first went in and told his wife.
Was tired and took nap before dinner, seemed groggy after a nap, so went to ER
Internal bleeding . Like many he was on coumadin. The bleeding didnt want to stop.

Died several days later.

Bronk
06-14-2015, 09:43
What's more frustrating to me is the difficulty of getting to emergency services in another place. (How does someone who happens to be in Schenectady County get in touch with the sheriff's department in Ulster County, for instance?) I try to leave emergency service contact information in the safety plan that I leave with my wife, but it's sometimes insanely difficult to find it, because "call 911" is the universal answer. Well, Schenectady County service dispatch isn't going to be a lot of use if it's Franklin County that I'm lost in!You're absolutely right, because when you call 911 in Schenectady County the 911 center there may end up having to call the non-emergency number in Ulster County because there isn't often an emergency number available to people calling from out of the area...which can be maddening when you call and the first thing the recording says is that if you have an emergency hang up and dial 911. There seem to be two extremes: people who call 911 over petty non-emergencies and others who are afraid to call when they do have a true emergency...you have people who are having a heart attack that don't call 911, they call their sister in law two states away who then turns around and has to try to get ahold of the right 911 center.

The Splitter
06-14-2015, 10:40
OP, I think your the one with unreasonable expectations. 911 is an emergency line, for real emergencies. What you were experiencing was an "inconvenience." If you were hurt too bad to pack out then you should have stashed your pack somewhere and then come back for it later. It's not 911's responsibility to help someone who is perfectly mobile to walk their crap back to the trailhead. What you experienced was an inconvenience and not an emergency.

One thing people don't realize is that when they utilize 911, those resources are "out of service" while helping you, meaning that if someone else in your area has an emergency, the response time is going to be longer (and depending on the area dramatically longer) as the next closest emergency resource may be a ways away.

Not to long ago my engine responded to a call for a cardiac arrest, we were the second due engine as the first due was already on a call. The station I was at at the time was on the edge of a rural area so we frequently ran calls when the station in that area was tied up... It took us 45 min running lights and sirens to get there, at which point the patient was dead as a door knob. The station that was supposed to respond was tied up on a BS call that didn't really need medical attention.




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squeezebox
06-14-2015, 10:58
Yes splitter you're right I was wrong. But I did learn a good lesson.

The Splitter
06-14-2015, 15:19
Yes splitter you're right I was wrong. But I did learn a good lesson.

Not trying to be harsh, just bring up a point, particularly from the perspective of someone in the field. I'm glad you walked away from it with something.


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