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Coffee
06-20-2015, 12:57
I'm looking for a bag or quilt for use in summer conditions here in northern Virginia, most likely in Shenandoah National Park for weekend trips, and possibly other destinations along the AT or possibly in West Virginia. My Marmot Helium 15 is way too warm for summer around here. I had not expected to be around here this summer but not I am and I need to be able to get on trail from time to time.

I've been looking at the Enlightened Equipment Revelation 40 degree quilt in regular width/long and it seems pretty good at $225 and just over 15 ounces. However, they have a 5-6 week lead time on orders. Are there other products out there with no lead time that might be similar? I'd like to get something before early-mid August when summer conditions will be winding down...

I am hoping for some secondary uses from this bag. I'm kicking around the idea of hiking the Camino next spring (probably April) and thinking that I'll want a minimal bag in case I occasionally camp and for use in the hostels. Is a 40 degree bag a good idea for this?

Also, I'm thinking that *maybe* I'll use the quilt in conjunction with my Helium to extend my comfort level in the winter. Right now with my Helium and my NeoAir xlite, I'm able to get down to near the bag's rating but I can't say it is that comfortable. Mid 20s is about the limit of "comfort". If the quilt/helium combo can get me down comfortably to 10 degrees or so that would cover nearly all conceivable winter conditions in the areas I'm likely to camp.

10-K
06-20-2015, 13:01
Thought I'd pass this along to you, re: Camino...

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=167777

Edited to add, I'm saving the Camino until I'm too old to hike wilderness trails.

Coffee
06-20-2015, 13:06
Edited to add, I'm saving the Camino until I'm too old to hike wilderness trails.

I used to feel that way but now that I'm looking at hikes that aren't longer than 6 weeks or so the Camino is a bit higher on my list. Also I could combine it with a conventional "touristy" trip to Spain with some of my family. I view Camino as more of a cultural walk through the country, not so much as something comparable to US trails.

Odd Man Out
06-20-2015, 13:55
...I've been looking at the Enlightened Equipment Revelation 40 degree quilt in regular width/long and it seems pretty good at $225 and just over 15 ounces. However, they have a 5-6 week lead time on orders. Are there other products out there with no lead time that might be similar?...

I had a custom quilt made by Underground Quilts a while back. It's very nice and comparable to the other cottage quilt makers. They have a ready-to-ship section in their catalog. You can see if they have a size, weight, and color that suits your needs.

http://www.undergroundquilts.com/instock/default.html#30TQ

Just Bill
06-20-2015, 23:48
Probably won't have mine in time for you...
You could try the hammock guys in general, but EE and Underground are the top two I know of...not sure on Zpacks current lead times.

On your Helium- you would probably do well to update your pad... Regular NeoAir is about there between 20-30*. If you aren't insulated right on the top AND bottom you won't be warm. Bumping up to a winter neo-air or adding a foam pad to your regular will likely get you closer to zero on bottom. From there; unless your 15 degree helium is worn out (most rate that bag true to temp) you should be at 10-15 degrees as is, maybe even pushing it a bit with clothing.

Combining the quilt and bag will help, but never quite as much as we'd all like... assuming that everything fits without compressing insulation I would guess that 15* bag and 40* quilt would push you closer to -5. IF your pad is doing it's share of the work.

Coffee
06-21-2015, 07:19
Good point on the pad. My neoair is so much better than the prolite it replaced but I do plan on supplementing with a ccf pad this winter if for no other reason than to have some backup if the neoair fails.

Maybe be I should just order the EE quilt and hope it gets in earlier. I've only been off the PCT for nine days and already wanting to get back on a trail, any trail... this summer but it will be somewhere more local and hot than the pct ... And only for a night or a few...

Coffee
06-21-2015, 07:23
Just checked zpacks and they have a 6-8 week lead time !! Glad business in going well for them and hope they have plans to seriously ramp up their operations to meet demand!

Old Hiker
06-21-2015, 07:49
Ordered and received a Sierra Stealth in about 5 days. 40* in a long, wide. Sale price helped me decide. Wearing it as a serape looks goofy, but seems to be very warm. Can't really test it here in FL, esp. with the A/C down to 79*. :eek: I'm hoping it will do well for the summer leg of the AT in 2016.

I'll have a better indication this fall/winter when the temps actually drop into the 30-50 range.

Good luck.

http://www.jacksrbetter.com/shop/sierra-stealth/

bigcranky
06-21-2015, 08:23
A few years ago I bought a 40F quilt from Jacks R Better for summer use in my hammock. I found it also works well sleeping on the ground. It was less than $200 iirc. Very well made and plenty warm enough for summers around here. I don't think I waited at all for them to make it.

Coffee
06-22-2015, 13:32
A few years ago I bought a 40F quilt from Jacks R Better for summer use in my hammock. I found it also works well sleeping on the ground. It was less than $200 iirc. Very well made and plenty warm enough for summers around here. I don't think I waited at all for them to make it.

Was it the Shenandoah quilt? I was just looking at that one on the website earlier today. It doesn't appear that they have a backlog at this point which is a big plus for me. I'm also thinking about the Western Mountaineering HighLite which is a bag rather than a quilt but still around a pound. I think that it would also be available without as much of a backlog.

daddytwosticks
06-22-2015, 16:16
Check out a Montbell Thermal Sheet. It's a type of lightweight down bag liner that I use opened up as a quilt in the summer. It can also be used with your cold weather bag to extend it's range. Mine cost be about 160 when I purchased it two years ago and weights about 15 ounces. :)

bigcranky
06-22-2015, 16:20
Was it the Shenandoah quilt? I was just looking at that one on the website earlier today. It doesn't appear that they have a backlog at this point which is a big plus for me. I'm also thinking about the Western Mountaineering HighLite which is a bag rather than a quilt but still around a pound. I think that it would also be available without as much of a backlog.

Yes, it was the Shenandoah (I had to go look). I've used it for several years on summer hikes in the South, and last summer on the Long Trail (in conjunction with my light down parka).

saltysack
06-22-2015, 16:56
+1 JRB..under $200...I also use helium for colder weather but love the stealth for 45 deg or warmer...


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Coffee
06-22-2015, 17:13
Confirmed that JRB products are available to ship the next day, so that's a huge plus in terms of getting the utility I want out of a purchase this summer. But as I compare specs, I do think that the weight/warmth of the EE Revelation is somewhat better for the sizing I'd purchase unless I'm looking at the specs wrong, Revelation is probably warmer.

EE Revelation 40 degree Regular Width Long Length
Dimensions: 54" at head half tapered to 40" at foot
Total weight: 15.06 ounces
Fill weight: 8.92 ounces
Price $225

Jacks R Better Shenandoah Quilt
Dimensions: 48" wide 86" long
Total weight: 16.5 ounces
Fill weight: 6.5 ounces
Price: $199.95

saltysack
06-22-2015, 18:16
Confirmed that JRB products are available to ship the next day, so that's a huge plus in terms of getting the utility I want out of a purchase this summer. But as I compare specs, I do think that the weight/warmth of the EE Revelation is somewhat better for the sizing I'd purchase unless I'm looking at the specs wrong, Revelation is probably warmer.

EE Revelation 40 degree Regular Width Long Length
Dimensions: 54" at head half tapered to 40" at foot
Total weight: 15.06 ounces
Fill weight: 8.92 ounces
Price $225

Jacks R Better Shenandoah Quilt
Dimensions: 48" wide 86" long
Total weight: 16.5 ounces
Fill weight: 6.5 ounces
Price: $199.95

I believe the stealth is alittle better than the Shenandoah ...I could be wrong...


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Just Bill
06-22-2015, 19:02
You'd need the length of the EE bag (Tim doesn't list them) From there you could calculate area and determine if the insulation used is enough for the bag's size.

Generally speaking... EE has one of the best insulation to shell ratio's. Z-Packs is better, but it costs big bucks for little gain.
In theory you get the lightest X* bag from the best shell to insulation ratio.
Tim also uses a tapered shape, so in theory uses less bag to do the same job.

You also need to look at fill power. If you compare EE bags you can see an apples to apples difference in fill power in a given bag and temp rating. Fill power doesn't equate to more warmth, just less down at a given loft. (lower weight)

So JRB may have a 900 fill bag and EE may have a 700 FP bag and be giving the same warmth at the weight you listed above.

JRB may also be using a 1.1 oz shell fabric, EE may be using a .67 oz shell- which again throws off the ratio.

In practice there is more at play like features, zippers, etc. So it is hard to get weight to an apples to apples number.

You're barking up the right tree but you have one fundamental flaw...

IF they are both 40* bags they are both 40* bags. One can't be warmer than the other if the rating is correct. One rating can be wrong, conservative or optimistic... but 40 is 40.

If you can figure out the insulated area, you can do the math to look at loft. Ultimately if there isn't enough fill used (or it's right on the line) then the bag is not a great value or may not meet it's rating. There are some design factors that help/hurt- but more or less with down- inches of loft is where the rating comes from.

Generally speaking- above 35* down gets a bit suspicious, especially at higher fill powers. 1.5" of down at 900 fp isn't much down as far as clusters per square yard of material. But that's my opinion mainly, but making several down bags I noticed some issues that required some higher than normal overstuff at that range (perhaps a conclusion EE has made as well), especially in conditions of less than ideal loft (wet, humid, or more than a weekend on the trail).

It is very tough to evaluate down bags with less than 2" of loft IMO.
One reason it doesn't matter that much- is above 40* many can deal with a 5-10 degree error from night to night- it's partially a nerd/designer problem- not so much a user issue. But summer bags in down are more prone to cold spots of uneven fill than a synthetic of a similar rating. If the cold spot is in the right spot... it makes your evening unpleasant.

Coffee
06-22-2015, 19:25
Thanks Just Bill. All good points I need to look into and consider.

Just Bill
06-22-2015, 19:37
Looking at the JRB real quick for you to show the math-
Looks like a straight cut 48x86 bag. 48x86=4128 square inches.
4128 square inches x claimed loft of 1.5" means you need (with no overstuff)- (4128*1.5)= 6192 cubic inches of fill.

In this case the fill is 800 FP (one ounce = 800 cubic inches).
6192/800= 7.74 ounces of fill to achieve 1.5" of loft.

Now that is a sewn through bag- so likely the 1.5" is peak loft because the chambers are not rectangles, but ellipses.
6.5 ounces of fill x 800= 5200 cubic inches.
5200 CU inches divided by sq in of bag- (5200/4128) equals 1.25" average loft.
The chart Z-packs uses is derived from the BPL chart which is pretty good... I post the Zpacks chart because you may not have access to the BPL charts :) http://www.zpacks.com/quilts/down_loft.shtml

A 1.2" loft bag is about a 50* bag.
That's not to pick on JRB, but I'd call the 40-45 a bit optimistic. Especially considering that generally 30% overstuff is added on top of the minimum fill weight which assumes ideal conditions. I'd expect the JRB bag to require a very good lofting/recovery period to achieve it's rating.

Now a sewn thru bag can do better than it's rating, especially with a bivy as you condition air based upon maximum loft, not average in a typical sewn through bag. But this does fall apart a bit as you get closer to 40* or if you have any air movement around you as you sleep (like in a hammock or cowboy camping).

I would need the height dimension of the EE bag to do the same numbers. But Tim at EE came from BPL and follows some of the rules developed there.

I do note that the JRB does use 1.1 oz shell. In the 4128 shell area from above...
4128/1296= 3.18 yards of shell material per side. double plus 10% for Seam allowance- Is 7 yards on the dot.
7 yards by 1.1- 7.7 ounces of fabric
7 yards by .67- 4.69 ounces of fabric
So you can see how shell material choice affects the bag weight- assuming JRB offered that shell.

bigcranky
06-22-2015, 19:40
Yeah, Bill is right, if they are rated properly then you can just choose the one you like. I do find the JRB quilt to be chilly under 50 degrees, so I wear a hat or my light down parka (WM Flash) and light wool base layers. But for summer use it's just fine, the price is reasonable, the weight difference with the EE quilt isn't enough to worry about, etc.

saltysack
06-22-2015, 20:55
Yeah, Bill is right, if they are rated properly then you can just choose the one you like. I do find the JRB quilt to be chilly under 50 degrees, so I wear a hat or my light down parka (WM Flash) and light wool base layers. But for summer use it's just fine, the price is reasonable, the weight difference with the EE quilt isn't enough to worry about, etc.

Now that hat u mentioned it....I usually sleep in my montbel ul down parka...tried with just cap 1 top and bottom but got cold last summer without parka.. I don't think it was under 50*....Sierra stealth


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Just Bill
06-22-2015, 21:28
One thing to keep in mind with any bag- quilt or mummy- it's only one part of a system.
For either- if your insulation underneath isn't good enough (doesn't match) then your system is broken.

A quilt is sweet in that it saves about 1/4-1/3 of the material vs. a mummy. But it's missing a critical part- a hood.
Now you can wear a hat (or two or three) that will generally serve you better than a mummy hood for less or equal weight.
But if you are missing the insulation on your head- your system suffers.
On the plus side- you can wear your hats outside your sleeping bag, so your versatility for the same weight (hats+quilt) vs mummy is better since you get more use.

Same issue if your quilt doesn't fit you right and you have drafts. 48" on it's own can be a bit tight for many people. If you don't have pad straps and have that size locked down tight you'll probably get more drafts and some more holes in your system too. Wearing a jacket in a quilt helps bust some of the drafts- assuming you'd be carrying the jacket...

Dogwood
06-22-2015, 21:44
+1 Dat man is wicked smart. Wait, he lies a lot. Hmmm?

saltysack
06-22-2015, 21:47
One thing to keep in mind with any bag- quilt or mummy- it's only one part of a system.
For either- if your insulation underneath isn't good enough (doesn't match) then your system is broken.

A quilt is sweet in that it saves about 1/4-1/3 of the material vs. a mummy. But it's missing a critical part- a hood.
Now you can wear a hat (or two or three) that will generally serve you better than a mummy hood for less or equal weight.
But if you are missing the insulation on your head- your system suffers.
On the plus side- you can wear your hats outside your sleeping bag, so your versatility for the same weight (hats+quilt) vs mummy is better since you get more use.

Same issue if your quilt doesn't fit you right and you have drafts. 48" on it's own can be a bit tight for many people. If you don't have pad straps and have that size locked down tight you'll probably get more drafts and some more holes in your system too. Wearing a jacket in a quilt helps bust some of the drafts- assuming you'd be carrying the jacket...

Thx...great info! Plan to buy a black rock gear down Beanie as my patagoochie beanie doesn't cover ears..guess kind of stoopid but my down parka has hood but don't like to sleep with it on...owell I'm not a gram weenie..13lb winter base wt good enough for me...


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Just Bill
06-22-2015, 22:14
Summertime a regular hat is fine, otherwise I think the hood style like the Zpacks one is a better choice.

One of the potential tricky spots with a quilt is a draft around the shoulders... a full hood helps with this.
So does having enough length in your quilt to roll/snug the top around yourself. One reason I like/make mine much longer than others is that in a pinch I can use it as a mummy style, but mainly having an extra 6" or more kills any shoulder drafts.

Not that the Zpacks hood is a good value really, but if you're dropping money on the black rock hat you might consider that. One thing that does work some for many- overkill on the hat weighs almost nothing and can do wonders for stretching a sleeping bag past it's rating. Perception is important and when your head, ears, and neck are all toasty warm or even hot-you'll feel warmer. So even in a "summer" weight having an overkill hat may let you stretch that piece a bit further...

saltysack
06-22-2015, 22:23
I like my mummy bag for winter..all the reasons you stated!! I happy with my mid level bag...marmot helium 15. I've had it at 15* wasn't toasty but not freezing either. I need better base layer bottoms as stated in my previous topic.....


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Just Bill
06-22-2015, 22:32
Yar, 20* or so is my flip point too on giving up on the quilts- the tradeoffs make less sense and at those temps the weight advantage can often swing back to the mummy.
I like a nice down mummy when it's chilly a 10 degree or better.
A good synthetic quilt around 30* for three seasons (though kind of a coin flip between synthetic and down for me)
A good synthetic quilt for summer, I don't find down to do very well in thinner lofts- too many dead spots and synthetic is lighter or equal (and cheaper).

The only point with the hat... you can maybe delay bumping up to your next bag in the quiver with a good hat and/or base layers.
I'd rather carry 2 ounces more hat than 8-12 ounces more bag when I'm on the edge of seasons...

Dogwood
06-22-2015, 22:59
I don't find down to do very well in thinner lofts- too many dead spots

Depends. Take a clue from the high end lightest wt/SUL highest FP down jackets/vests apparel. Smaller compartments that control the down keeping it in place while STILL maintaining high loft. Sometimes similar is done with very light/SUL/UL synthetic apparel too.

I gotta see your quilt pics, specs, and beta. Site up and running yet?

Would you agree that different fabrics, both shell and interior, including their wt/sq yd, not only affect the finished wt of the product but could, as in the case of quilts/ sleeping bags, SLIGHTLY play into temp ratings? Could other factors other than loft play into the ultimate warmth of a quilt/bag especially when employing the highest fp downs? I think you've already answered that last question by saying yes.

greeter
06-22-2015, 23:06
Have you looked at the SOL escape bivy? $50 at REI. 8.5 oz. I used it with a Sea to Summit cotton/silk blend liner, about 5 oz. Good for me down to about 50 degrees in a single wall tent. Add some extra clothes for cooler nights. If you not tall, the bivy can go over a summer weight sleeping bag to extend it well into fall. Cheap and light.

Just Bill
06-23-2015, 00:03
Site's not up yet, few more weeks.
I won't be selling any down for now but I've made about a dozen pieces now which led me to some of my conclusions. Also had some very good discussions, debates, and conclusions over at Hammock Forums on the topic and some Jerry Adams inspired baffleless quilts I made after some BPL discussion. I'm hoping to finish up a mini-article for the site... Another Kevin has been helpful with some of the science and I need to digest some of his info and bounce it by him one more time.

You're right on the baffle size IMO... The jackets are a good example, and even then there are some dead spots.
Design could be a whole book, lol. But yes shell choice is a big deal on finished weight. I don't know that it would improve temp, but a bad shell could hurt it. Really though almost all legit companies use down proof fabric so it's not as big a deal as it used to be. But...
A stiffer fabric would deform less. One thing that happens with down is it wants to form a circle and deform the shell. (like the sewn through bag that forms a football shaped baffle.

Z-packs and EE deal with that very well by slightly undersizing their baffle material relative to design loft. So they sew a 1.5" or 1.75" baffle for a 2" loft and let the baffle deformity work for them. It also reduces the weight of baffle material in the final design. Joe uses the .34 cuben. Not having taken one apart I would imagine this also lets him run a very small seam allowance on the baffle material as well.

The problem with high fill downs in my experiments trying to push gram weenie levels of light...
If you think of down like a marble, think of higher fill power down as larger diameter marbles. Let's call 700 fill 1/2" and 900 fill 3/4" diameter. In a 1.5" thick bag, you can stack 3 marbles deep, or 2 marbles deep. In a 1.5" by 1.5" cube- you can only put in 4 900 fill marbles, maybe a 5th.
But in a 700 fill you could fit many more, 3x3 marbles on the bottom at least three rows high, plus some infill marbles between layers.

Assuming you picture all that, lol.
You can actually visually see this when you have some loose fill- or if you look at a high end jacket in a lighter color- they are see through more or less. If you hold up a high fill power SUL vest or jacket up to the light you can actually see individual clusters of down. To control this essentially one cluster deep down- they sew the 1" baffles, which end up about 1/2" of loft roughly. Any bigger baffle size, and they would shift easily. Any smaller and the cluster couldn't loft to it's max potential.

So when you get to the lower loft bags, I think you actually hurt yourself with the really high fill power downs. To use your profession; you wouldn't try to use 3" stone as a 1" ground cover, you'd want to use pea gravel sized stuff because you don't have the depth to use such large diameter stone and cover the surface. With the large material cover you'd see too much dirt, too many cold spots and dead zones. Just because the down cluster gets bigger, it's density at the edges is very low.

In the down- the bigger the baffle- the more the material "rattles around" too.
I had some decent luck with 3" baffle spacing to trap 850 fill at the correct amounts (no overstuff) but then you have a different issue in that the baffle material starts to outweigh the advantage of the higher fill downs. If you aren't doing MYOG, you also have to look at double the labor in sewing 3" vs 6" spacing too.

Joe and Tim both use at least 30% overstuff to help make up the difference and balance it out. Down is cheaper than more baffles from a labor standpoint, also unless you have a machine stuffing small baffles on any scale is very hard. So if you overfill your baffle you solve most of your baffle size problems- and you get to tell your customers you use more down!

In the sub 2" lofts- I have found that 800 fill or less was the best balance IMO. The minimal weight savings doesn't justify the cost increase, really a decent 700 fill does very well too. In a low loft bag you're not talking much weight, but like the pea gravel vs the 3" stone- you're getting better coverage per ounce because you are using the right material.

2" and up- the high fill power is only limited by your budget really. About 2" thick the "material size" is no longer a real factor.

That said- a pet theory of mine is the stuff theory... A cluster of down is made of stuff. Let's call it a gram of stuff. Take your gram of stuff and make a cluster of 600 fill down. Now stretch your stuff a bit and make 700 fill, then 800 fill, and up to 1000 fill. Your cluster gets bigger and bigger in diameter yes, so in the lab you post higher and higher results. BUT, you still only have one gram of stuff.

So now you have one gram of stuff- blown out to the limits of fragility as you stretch and stretch to get that big. A bit like a balloon blown until it pops. I think 550-700 is a bit under inflated. 700-850 is perfect, 850 plus is overinflated.

The more your stuff is stretched the more delicate it gets. So just the slightest wisp of humidity and that 1000 fill is now a 900 fill.
Or that super mega compression sack job you pulled to make your pepsi can sized bag crushes your stuff so small that to expect it to recover back to it's pristinely lofted state in just such the right arrangement of molecules is asking a bit much of the material in real life. If you're talking mega bags (-20 and below) then maybe it makes sense. But I think that there is a balance in there where the high fill downs will only achieve that fill in the lab, not in the field on day 7 of a trip. Just a little trapped moisture/frost in a 950 fill bag over a winter week could cut 25% off it's fill power. Whereas the structure of a 750 fill is "tougher" and less prone to collapse.

Of note- Primaloft is working on a down synthetic hybrid. I assume mainly to help down recover better and reloft in the real world. With a little help down can bounce back better- we all know the shake, shake, fluff, puff, pat routine to fix our lifeless bag when we don't have 2 hours for our bag to "rest" before bed. I think that perhaps even a 900 fill at 75% with 700 fill at 25% may even prove to be the same fix; a bit of tough stuff to get it going- remember- to get 900 fill you stretched all your stuff so thin that it doesn't have much strength to bounce back. I think that's the tree Primaloft is barking up with the hybrid. Especially as PL retains nearly all it's insulating ability when wet.

So ultimately my conclusion was that you could build a better bag out of synthetics at this time.
I'm coming in a bit heavier than Zpacks, but a bit lighter than EE.
Since the synthetic is a mat, not a loose fill, you don't need baffles.
Roughly speaking- about 35* is the break even point in 800+ fill down vs. Primaloft Gold.
So shell+down vs Baffle material is equal to Shell + Primaloft at that point.
Yes in a super high fill power with cutting edge materials there is a slight weight advantage still for down, but you are talking double (or more) the cost for very little gain. Perhaps even a disadvantage come day 5 or so away from a commercial dryer or zero humidity.
Obviously there are a few spots out west this isn't a factor, but most of us deal at least with our own body vapor.

Environment wise- your highest chance of moisture problems (ambient as well as rain) is above 30 degrees. So your highest potential for down failure (either in part from moisture, or in full from truly drenching it) is in a bag 30* plus.

So plus or minus 10% on weight, half the cost, no worries with water. (Primaloft Gold retains 92% of it's insulating value and as far as I can tell can't actually be soaked without some serious effort) I think a good synthetic is a clear winner above 40* for sure, maybe even to 20* depending on your budget.

Start to cross the 20* mark- as stated- down is still king. Though I think I'd stay away from 850+ fills myself.

One shell thing I may one day explore...
You, Malto, and others have reported success with VBL experiments. I'm not personally convinced myself, but this last winter was down gear experiments mainly for me. Point being- your shell comment leads to an interesting debate and eventual experiment of simply using a VBL as the inner shell of a bag, probably a mummy. It would be very easy to do and save you the weight of a separate VBL.

I think you'd have to be talking at least a 10* bag, and it would be a pretty specialized piece. For sub-zero temps though it could prove very effective at little weight penalty (well under 2 ounces). I wonder if you'd need to seam seal/tape- but still. In true cold a VBL is a proven winner, and adding 2 ounces to a 2lb winter bag isn't a deal breaker, especially if you save a 6-8 ounce VBL liner in the process.

Mountain Wildman
06-23-2015, 00:20
FYI: I emailed EE or the length before ordering my Revelation.
The Regular is ~78 long, and the Long is about 84. Some of the length is used in how the footbox is drawn together, which is why its typically more helpful to go by user height.

Cuacoatchoo
06-23-2015, 08:12
It's so hot here in Virginia this year, for weekend hikes the most I would take is my sleeping bag liner. Note: you need to check the weather night time temps with such as system. But if you have any kind of insulating top, the liner is more Tha. Enough. I use the thermo lite extreme.

A sleeping bag liner would be a nice modular addition to your gear list because it expands both your summer and winter ranges.

If you need something fast, I got a 16 Oz marmot aspen mummy bag. I'm a big guy so I mostly use the mummy bag as a quilt. It's. It as comfortable as a real quilt but at a $100 it's quite a cool little bag. I use its above 40 F

Just Bill
06-23-2015, 08:58
FYI: I emailed EE or the length before ordering my Revelation.
The Regular is ~78” long, and the Long is about 84”. Some of the length is used in how the footbox is drawn together, which is why it’s typically more helpful to go by user height.

A good ballpark on loss of height is 4-8".
I don't disagree at all with the user height idea, but I personally like to know.
I find that 6-8" for a footbox, and at least 6" to curl around your shoulders is good, add more if you want to curl up mummy style when needed. So add 12-18" to user height depending on how plush you want it. In warmer temps or for lightest weight you can keep it a bit slim/short. For maximum versatility, I think the relatively low weight of extra length lets me stretch the quilt to colder temps.

If you want the math to evaluate a quilt on your own-
Foot box width can be used to show the circumference of a circle when the quilt is used in that way.
To close the circle you need to pull it shut and the radius of that circle is what you "lose" in height as a result.

EE's quilt- 40" footbox. 40"/3.14 (Pi)= 12.74. Divide diameter by two to get radius (12.74/2) 6.37"
A quilt isn't a perfect cylinder, so I would round up and add 1 to call it 8" to be safe.

That said, depending on how you sleep (especially if you side sleep with pointy toes) you may lose only half that since your footbox looks more like a football than a drum.

Namtrag
06-23-2015, 09:22
It's so hot here in Virginia this year, for weekend hikes the most I would take is my sleeping bag liner. Note: you need to check the weather night time temps with such as system. But if you have any kind of insulating top, the liner is more Tha. Enough. I use the thermo lite extreme.

A sleeping bag liner would be a nice modular addition to your gear list because it expands both your summer and winter ranges.

If you need something fast, I got a 16 Oz marmot aspen mummy bag. I'm a big guy so I mostly use the mummy bag as a quilt. It's. It as comfortable as a real quilt but at a $100 it's quite a cool little bag. I use its above 40 F

I am kind of scared that I was comfortable using my EE Enigma 20 degree quilt last weekend, with lows in the mid 60's. I didn't burrow into it, and had it pulled down to mid torso much of the time, but it seems like it should have been making me sweat to death. I would wonder if it was really a 20 degree quilt except I have used it down to 30 or so and been comfortable as well. My wife is telling me that down is good that way, it kind of adjusts to what you need. Not sure if I buy that, but it is kind of curious as to why I am ok with warm quilt in the summer so far.

Just Bill
06-23-2015, 09:27
EE Revelation 40 degree Regular Width Long Length
Dimensions: 54" at head half tapered to 40" at foot
Total weight: 15.06 ounces
Fill weight: 8.92 ounces
Price $225


And just to close the circle for you Coffee now that we have an 84" length for the revelation.

EE makes a tapered bag, so we have to guess a bit. Tim calls it a half taper so lets go with that-
54+54+40/3= 49.33" wide. 84" long- 84x49.33=4144 square inches.

Tim Calls his 40* 1.5" and jives with the BPL chart.
So 4144 x 1.5= 6216 cubic inches of fill.
Revelation uses 800 FP down.
6126/800= 7.77 ounces of fill.
BUT Tim uses 8.92 ounces???

That's a good thing. Using exactly what you need is for the lab. In the field everyday isn't perfect and the down won't loft just right. 30% overstuff is considered a good rule of thumb, but you don't get one of the most efficient bags around going with safe. So where is this bag?

8.92-7.77= 1.22 ounces of overstuff. 1.22/7.77=.158 or 16% overstuff.

Assuming you have properly designed your bag; I'd call that pretty durn good. You could make it an ounce heavier, but EE's unique baffle shape and design helps correct down shift- so good design solves a problem typically solved by stuffing more down... in this case saving an ounce or so versus a typical 30%.

EE uses a 10d shell material- about .70 ounces per yard.
4144/1296= 3.19 yards, double that plus 10%=7.03- almost the exact same yardage as the JRB.

But EE's tapered shape does more with the same material- wider on top for the torso, narrower at the footbox. Good design!

7 yards x .7= 4.9 ounces of shell.
But Tim lists- (15.06-8.92) 6.14 ounces of shell...
Most of that weight is the baffles. A 1.5" baffle needs at least 1/2" seam allowance- so 2.5" wide.
JRB has a sewn thru- no baffles. EE has a true baffled bag. I won't guess on the linear inches of baffles but you can see that they will add up fast, they could easily be another yard of material.

The zipper and drawcords are probably are probably .75 ounces too.

BOTTOM LINE-
On paper-
The EE bag is a solid bag by the numbers, should perform as expected, and a good value.
The JRB is a decent bag, but appears optimistically rated. I would also call it over priced relative to EE. EE is using a more expensive shell (almost double the cost) and more down, yet only runs $25 more.

The most important rating though is peer review. Math will only get you so far.:eek:

Several chimed in to back up the paper ratings, reporting that 50* was closer to reality and that supplemental insulation (jacket) was needed in the JRB. The sewn thru design is likely a big contributor to this, as is the apparent lack of any overstuff beyond ideal.

We know in general (from community feedback) that EE is considered conservatively rated. They are a bit below overstuff "guidelines" but the "shiftless baffle" design isn't just good marketing, it's truly good design that saves an ounce on the scale, and puts money in your pocket by reducing the most expensive material.

Doing more with less=applying more intelligence than less.

Coffee
06-23-2015, 09:37
Thanks again Just Bill. I think that the EE is definitely the best price/performance value of the products I've looked at so far. I guess there's a reason for the long lead times!

Just Bill
06-23-2015, 09:39
I am kind of scared that I was comfortable using my EE Enigma 20 degree quilt last weekend, with lows in the mid 60's. I didn't burrow into it, and had it pulled down to mid torso much of the time, but it seems like it should have been making me sweat to death. I would wonder if it was really a 20 degree quilt except I have used it down to 30 or so and been comfortable as well. My wife is telling me that down is good that way, it kind of adjusts to what you need. Not sure if I buy that, but it is kind of curious as to why I am ok with warm quilt in the summer so far.

Your wife is right. It's a bit like Merino in that regard.

And it's a quilt.
A mummy is crappy at the upper limit- but shines at the lower limits.
A quilt is crappy at the lower limit- but much more versatile at upper limits.

Four bags end up in most closets.
Summer, three season, below freezing and true winter.
IF you had to pick one- a 20* down quilt will span from 30* up for most users most comfortably. It will get you through the odd 20* night with some tricks, but most of us would want a mummy for prolonged trips below freezing.

Dipping into a chill is a lot different than living in one day after day.
Often you will find if you add quilt plus hats- you come out ahead on a good mummy vs. a winter quilt rig.

Namtrag
06-23-2015, 09:45
Thanks for the insight, Bill! I learn a lot reading your posts.

saltysack
06-23-2015, 10:28
Your wife is right. It's a bit like Merino in that regard.

And it's a quilt.
A mummy is crappy at the upper limit- but shines at the lower limits.
A quilt is crappy at the lower limit- but much more versatile at upper limits.

Four bags end up in most closets.
Summer, three season, below freezing and true winter.
IF you had to pick one- a 20* down quilt will span from 30* up for most users most comfortably. It will get you through the odd 20* night with some tricks, but most of us would want a mummy for prolonged trips below freezing.

Dipping into a chill is a lot different than living in one day after day.
Often you will find if you add quilt plus hats- you come out ahead on a good mummy vs. a winter quilt rig.

I plan to try the JRB quilt over my 15* marmot helium this winter.. Curious how much warmth it will add..


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Namtrag
06-23-2015, 10:48
it's hard to justify buying a sleeping bag liner or fleece for summer use when my quilt is working for me. The liners and fleeces in some cases weigh the same as my quilt! And liners probably won't fit my massive upper body very well! :)

saltysack
06-23-2015, 10:59
it's hard to justify buying a sleeping bag liner or fleece for summer use when my quilt is working for me. The liners and fleeces in some cases weigh the same as my quilt! And liners probably won't fit my massive upper body very well! :)

I have a sea to summit reactor liner...don't think it does much other than keeping bag clean....its not worth carrying...my $ .02....I get cold fairly easy...most of my use mainly on the southern AT having a 15* bag and a 45-50 quilt is sufficient..


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Just Bill
06-23-2015, 14:06
it's hard to justify buying a sleeping bag liner or fleece for summer use when my quilt is working for me. The liners and fleeces in some cases weigh the same as my quilt! And liners probably won't fit my massive upper body very well! :)

For a good 10+ years- a simple cotton bed sheet was my summer "bag". Still is on many car camping trips.
Doesn't need to be special or expensive. JoAnn sells a poly fabric (a knock off Capeline 1 style) that would make a good summer sheet or liner. Probably about 8 ounces & about $10 with a coupon. Add 15-20 if you had to take it somewhere to get the edges hemmed... Maybe add an ounce for your preference to bear arms.
Bug netting also makes an okay summer bag.

At some point it's warm enough that it's almost silly to take a three season quilt along- but free country and all. ;0

Just Bill
06-23-2015, 14:08
I have a sea to summit reactor liner...don't think it does much other than keeping bag clean....its not worth carrying...my $ .02....I get cold fairly easy...most of my use mainly on the southern AT having a 15* bag and a 45-50 quilt is sufficient..


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http://www.zpacks.com/quilts/down_loft.shtml

On paper- open up your helium so you are only measuring top insulation. Lay your quilt on top and measure the total loft. Look at the chart and you'll get a best case scenario.

In real life- there's more to it and you may find you only get about half of the additional warmth you show on paper.

saltysack
06-23-2015, 14:20
http://www.zpacks.com/quilts/down_loft.shtml

On paper- open up your helium so you are only measuring top insulation. Lay your quilt on top and measure the total loft. Look at the chart and you'll get a best case scenario.

In real life- there's more to it and you may find you only get about half of the additional warmth you show on paper.

I'm on the road...what would u guess..the sea to summit reactor liner says 15* more which I don't believe...would u think the JRB quilt would lower rating by 10-15. If so around 3lbs isn't to bad for a 0* winter set up....


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saltysack
06-23-2015, 14:40
Just got home and measured...I must be missing something here....http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/23/fb006391fe982372a2c70dff034d9d13.jpg


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Just Bill
06-23-2015, 14:55
Yar- try a hard surface and go the otherway. Helium on bottom, JRB on top.
if you have a light yardstick or similar- lay that on top and measure from hard surface to stick.

Camera angle is bad too.

The sea-to summit ratings are horse poop- if you cut them in half they don't stink as much.

saltysack
06-23-2015, 15:09
10-4...already put away but would guess around 4". On the scale around 0*....sound correct?


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Just Bill
06-23-2015, 15:23
4" is decent- somewhere between zero and -10 if everything lays right and you don't have too many drafts.
Assuming that you have a sleeping pad that matches.

Coffee
06-23-2015, 15:36
My coldest night to date in my Helium Long was on the Foothills Trail in February when I believe the lows got to the mid-high teens, so just above the bag's rating. It was paired with a Neoair xLite. I wore a Mountain Hardwear Dome Perignon hat and had the Helium's hood cinched pretty tight and I tried my best to keep the bag's excess material tucked in (the bag's girth is way too wide for me at the torso). Doing all of that and sleeping on my side I was not toasty warm but I did sleep for a few hours at a time showing that I was comfortable enough. On previous occasions I felt super cold when I paired the Helium with a Prolite even in the mid 20s. So I wasn't totally comfortable at the Helium's rated temp but at least I did sleep. I suspect that if I were to pair the Helium with a summer quilt like the EE Revelation I could be very comfortable in the mid teens and still be able to sleep into the single digits, although I suspect I wouldn't be totally comfortable.

saltysack
06-23-2015, 15:52
My coldest night to date in my Helium Long was on the Foothills Trail in February when I believe the lows got to the mid-high teens, so just above the bag's rating. It was paired with a Neoair xLite. I wore a Mountain Hardwear Dome Perignon hat and had the Helium's hood cinched pretty tight and I tried my best to keep the bag's excess material tucked in (the bag's girth is way too wide for me at the torso). Doing all of that and sleeping on my side I was not toasty warm but I did sleep for a few hours at a time showing that I was comfortable enough. On previous occasions I felt super cold when I paired the Helium with a Prolite even in the mid 20s. So I wasn't totally comfortable at the Helium's rated temp but at least I did sleep. I suspect that if I were to pair the Helium with a summer quilt like the EE Revelation I could be very comfortable in the mid teens and still be able to sleep into the single digits, although I suspect I wouldn't be totally comfortable.

Similar to me....in winter I now also carry my cut down zlite sol to put under neoair xlite...it seemed to help but look forward to trying with quilt on top this winter....I tend to sleep cold but stay hot while on the go....weird. I find I get cold under 25* in the 15* rated helium


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Coffee
06-23-2015, 15:56
I'm also going to add some type of CCF pad to put under my neo air in winter. Other than the increased r value, I'll be less nervous about being totally screwed if the neo air pops on a winter trip.

Just Bill
06-23-2015, 16:54
One of the things I'm still working on (the one I need Another Kevin's engineering mind for some proofreading) is to answer this question on paper.

The hard part with all insulation:
We all think in temperature- primarily in Fahrenheit because we are American jerks.
Science thinks in Celsius- my jerk brain has a hard time thinking in C*.
Synthetic insulation uses the CLO system.
Down insulation uses loft.
Sleeping pads use R-Value.
Clothing uses CLO.
The CLO system starts to break down around zero.
Loft calculations start to break down around -20.
Science and outdoorsfolks disagree on warmth from a hat.
Conventional wisdom doesn't always agree with science.
Paper doesn't always agree with real life.
Everyone is different.
One person is different from night to night.

None of it works very well together. So it is very hard to evaluate your sleep system as a whole.

But your scenario is a common one (one I may be concerned about as someone selling sleeping gear!)
You take your 15* helium out and freeze your butt off when it's in the 20's yet. ***!#!$! you shout- this bag sucks!
You promptly ask for a refund.

Worse actually-- you buy an even heavier bag, for even more money. Sucks for you, sucks for the vendor.
Now nobody is happy, nor getting what they paid for. Your pack is heavier, your wallet is lighter, the vendor gets a bad rep for having bad ratings.

Or maybe you get a good vendor/service who gets you an Xtherm... but as you see below even that doesn't do it!

I suspect your problem is your pad. Here is a very rough chart that I am still working to clean up- (assume a hard line between CLO and Temp- I don't know how to paste excel or make a chart on here) So two charts side by side- not one chart.



Neo-Air-
R value-
CLO

Temp-
CLO


X-lite
3.2
3.64

50
1.64


womens
3.9
4.43

40
3.28


X-therm
5.7
6.48

30
4.92


Zlite sol
2.6
2.95

20
6.56


3/8 foam
1.4
1.59

10
8.2



We can take the R-value of your xlite pad- 3.2.
Convert it to CLO by dividing by .88- and get 3.64 CLO

Look at a rough CLO chart and see that your 3.64 CLO X-lite is a high 30's pad at best. (pretty close to field experience/general wisdom)

We can also look and see that for your given goal (15 degrees or so) that an X-therm would still put you at the edge at about 20*.
(A bit off of conventional wisdom as many report closer to low teens or zero with an Xtherm)

Conventional wisdom says add a foam pad to your xlite (3.64R+1.59R= 5.23R/.88= 5.95 CLO) will do it. But running the numbers you still fall short a bit with about 25* worth of pad. So get out the trusty Zlite Sol (3.64R+2.95R=6.59R/.88=7.48CLO) Basically 15* and a winner.

Now the CLO chart listed here is still a bit rough. But matches field experience well enough.

Also- many folks can get away with a bit less on the ground.

Why?-
My non-lab tested but logical guess- you are only relying on the pad for say 1/3 of your insulation. The other 2/3rds is your bag/quilt/hat. So if you are durn close on your pad, and a little heavy on the rest then it evens out and you meet in the middle. You may toss and turn, but you make it.

The inverse is true in the field too- I used a women's neo-air for a very long time (35*) and a very light homemade quilt (50*) with hats and took the combo into the 40's and high 30's fairly regularly. Side sleeping would lead to a cold side (quilt) and a warm side (pad) Flip over and sleep for another hour or two and I could make it work.

However if the gap is too big you will be too uncomfortable to fall asleep at all. Hammock-ers are very familiar with CBS-(Cold butt syndrome)- where basically one small- but critical part of your body is too uncomfortably cold to allow sleep- even if the rest of the system is good or even over the temp needed.

In a hammock- you have to reverse everything.
Your UQ covers about 2/3rds, your TQ only a third.
Plus I have found that in a hammock it is not air temp- but "real feel" temp that you need to size your UQ to match, even with a wind sock.
Same for cowboy camping. In a tent or bivy you can size to air temp.

There is also a bit of ground temp to consider...
Even if it's -10, that doesn't mean that the ground you sleep on is -10. It could be quite a bit warmer, and snow can be an insulator too- so there is literally a little love from Mother Earth keeping you warm when you stay grounded. (or her molten core) I'm fairly convinced that this is why conventional wisdom (for ground dwellers) differs from paper so much- you're simply not dealing with as much cold in your pad as the thermometer might suggest.

saltysack
06-23-2015, 17:19
One of the things I'm still working on (the one I need Another Kevin's engineering mind for some proofreading) is to answer this question on paper.

The hard part with all insulation:
We all think in temperature- primarily in Fahrenheit because we are American jerks.
Science thinks in Celsius- my jerk brain has a hard time thinking in C*.
Synthetic insulation uses the CLO system.
Down insulation uses loft.
Sleeping pads use R-Value.
Clothing uses CLO.
The CLO system starts to break down around zero.
Loft calculations start to break down around -20.
Science and outdoorsfolks disagree on warmth from a hat.
Conventional wisdom doesn't always agree with science.
Paper doesn't always agree with real life.
Everyone is different.
One person is different from night to night.

None of it works very well together. So it is very hard to evaluate your sleep system as a whole.

But your scenario is a common one (one I may be concerned about as someone selling sleeping gear!)
You take your 15* helium out and freeze your butt off when it's in the 20's yet. ***!#!$! you shout- this bag sucks!
You promptly ask for a refund.

Worse actually-- you buy an even heavier bag, for even more money. Sucks for you, sucks for the vendor.
Now nobody is happy, nor getting what they paid for. Your pack is heavier, your wallet is lighter, the vendor gets a bad rep for having bad ratings.

Or maybe you get a good vendor/service who gets you an Xtherm... but as you see below even that doesn't do it!

I suspect your problem is your pad. Here is a very rough chart that I am still working to clean up- (assume a hard line between CLO and Temp- I don't know how to paste excel or make a chart on here) So two charts side by side- not one chart.



Neo-Air-
R value-
CLO

Temp-
CLO


X-lite
3.2
3.64

50
1.64


womens
3.9
4.43

40
3.28


X-therm
5.7
6.48

30
4.92


Zlite sol
2.6
2.95

20
6.56


3/8 foam
1.4
1.59

10
8.2



We can take the R-value of your xlite pad- 3.2.
Convert it to CLO by dividing by .88- and get 3.64 CLO

Look at a rough CLO chart and see that your 3.64 CLO X-lite is a high 30's pad at best. (pretty close to field experience/general wisdom)

We can also look and see that for your given goal (15 degrees or so) that an X-therm would still put you at the edge at about 20*.
(A bit off of conventional wisdom as many report closer to low teens or zero with an Xtherm)

Conventional wisdom says add a foam pad to your xlite (3.64R+1.59R= 5.23R/.88= 5.95 CLO) will do it. But running the numbers you still fall short a bit with about 25* worth of pad. So get out the trusty Zlite Sol (3.64R+2.95R=6.59R/.88=7.48CLO) Basically 15* and a winner.

Now the CLO chart listed here is still a bit rough. But matches field experience well enough.

Also- many folks can get away with a bit less on the ground.

Why?-
My non-lab tested but logical guess- you are only relying on the pad for say 1/3 of your insulation. The other 2/3rds is your bag/quilt/hat. So if you are durn close on your pad, and a little heavy on the rest then it evens out and you meet in the middle. You may toss and turn, but you make it.

The inverse is true in the field too- I used a women's neo-air for a very long time (35*) and a very light homemade quilt (50*) with hats and took the combo into the 40's and high 30's fairly regularly. Side sleeping would lead to a cold side (quilt) and a warm side (pad) Flip over and sleep for another hour or two and I could make it work.

However if the gap is too big you will be too uncomfortable to fall asleep at all. Hammock-ers are very familiar with CBS-(Cold butt syndrome)- where basically one small- but critical part of your body is too uncomfortably cold to allow sleep- even if the rest of the system is good or even over the temp needed.

In a hammock- you have to reverse everything.
Your UQ covers about 2/3rds, your TQ only a third.
Plus I have found that in a hammock it is not air temp- but "real feel" temp that you need to size your UQ to match, even with a wind sock.
Same for cowboy camping. In a tent or bivy you can size to air temp.

There is also a bit of ground temp to consider...
Even if it's -10, that doesn't mean that the ground you sleep on is -10. It could be quite a bit warmer, and snow can be an insulator too- so there is literally a little love from Mother Earth keeping you warm when you stay grounded. (or her molten core) I'm fairly convinced that this is why conventional wisdom (for ground dwellers) differs from paper so much- you're simply not dealing with as much cold in your pad as the thermometer might suggest.

U should run for President!


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saltysack
06-23-2015, 17:24
Would u recommend putting zlite on top or below neoair xlite? The neo is a large vs reg zlite....


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Coffee
06-23-2015, 17:28
Strangely enough, my perception of coldness in the Helium usually comes from above, rather than from the pad. I've been comfortable in temps far below high 30s with the NeoAir, in terms of my perception of warmth from below. I might be a special case as a skinny guy in the Helium which is a pretty wide bag at the chest and shoulders with lots of dead air. If I can cinch the excess bag material around my body well before going to sleep and if I don't toss and turn, I can take the bag down to lower temps. Once I start tossing and turning, that excess material gets loose and cold. My body can't generate enough heat to keep the inside of the large bag warm I guess. I'd do better with a narrower warm bag, I think. The zPacks 10 is definitely what I would opt for if buying new today but my Helium does have a lot of life left and I don't think I'd get all that much if I sold it given that I've spent well over 100 nights in it...

Bluegrass
06-23-2015, 17:51
I am kind of scared that I was comfortable using my EE Enigma 20 degree quilt last weekend, with lows in the mid 60's. I didn't burrow into it, and had it pulled down to mid torso much of the time, but it seems like it should have been making me sweat to death. I would wonder if it was really a 20 degree quilt except I have used it down to 30 or so and been comfortable as well. My wife is telling me that down is good that way, it kind of adjusts to what you need. Not sure if I buy that, but it is kind of curious as to why I am ok with warm quilt in the summer so far.

I have an EE Revelation 20* quilt and used it down into the mid-20's, combined with a NeoAir Xlite and a Katabatic Gear Windom Hood. I was warm the entire night. I have used the same quilt and pad in 60 degree nights and been comfortable. I find the quilt design to be more flexible - in the 20's I had both pad straps tightened down and both the head and foot cinched more shut. In the 60's I went without pad straps at all, and had the footbox opened.

I keep considering getting a 40-50 degree summer quilt for the weight savings, but my 20 degree Revelation is definitely acceptable as a one-size-fits-almost-all solution. I am curious to see Just Bill's final designs and prices.

Just Bill
06-23-2015, 17:57
Most say foam down, though that's just field wisdom and little to no science.

Coffee- never used a helium... It's possible that it isn't a true 15. Possible that after 100+ nights it's lost a little umpfff.
And field wisdom on the neo-air is closer to 32- so I'm with you there.

But size of the bag might do it too- dead air is a factor.
You could also be a cold sleeper (about 5-10 degrees off someone else).
You could be drafting- do you feel a rush of warm air leave the bag when you roll over? Tighten the hood.

Or... there are some flaws with the EN system:
The standard measures four temperature ratings:


Upper Limit — the temperature at which a standard man can sleep without excessive perspiration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspiration). It is established with the hood and zippers open and with the arms outside of the bag.
Comfort — the temperature at which a standard woman can expect to sleep comfortably in a relaxed position.
Lower Limit — the temperature at which a standard man can sleep for eight hours in a curled position without waking.
Extreme — the minimum temperature at which a standard woman can remain for six hours without risk of death from hypothermia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia) (though frostbite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostbite) is still possible).


The EN system assumes a few things, and is a bit misleading at times.
It assumes that you are wearing a baselayer (about .5 CLO or 3.5 degrees) and a hat. We all agree that sleeping naked is a bust, but wearing too many clothes can affect the rating.

You will note that the men's rating mentions sleep position as curled. The women's rating however is relaxed.
Basically- if you curl up in a ball- you reduce surface area and lose heat slower than if you lay flat on your back. (Field and lab results agree)
So 15* assumes ideal sleep position, little or no change in position, and experience sleeping in that position.
Realistically- splitting the men's and women's rating is closer to the real deal. Looking at REI- http://www.rei.com/product/864090/marmot-helium-sleeping-bag#tab-specs

16 for men, 28 for women. So what about a man in a relaxed position- or less than ideal sleep? Dunno...not tested. Split them is probably fair. Now you have a 22* bag.
If you are truly a cold sleeper, maybe the women's rating is the more accurate for you personally.

The tests are done in a lab, under controlled humidity and wind conditions.
The tests allow 24 hours for the bags to loft (recover) which is not real life.
The tests do not allow for a few days of body moisture to accumulate in your bag (affects even your treated down)
On the topic- treated down may not be as good a performer. (different thread)
While the EN tests combine dummies and real people- the real people are generally fit, younger, and going from a room temperature lab to a sleep chamber; not crawling out of the rain after 16 hours fighting the cold into a shelter after a long hard day of physical exercise.

There is also the "expert" or experience factor- the EN ratings discuss and review an expert sleeper (another topic too). If you remove the distaste you might feel for the word- there is quite a bit of evidence that sleeping in less than perfect conditions takes practice and certain skills. Some of which can be learned, some are just different body types.

hikenski
06-24-2015, 07:12
Karrimor out of the UK, has an amazingly compact (Nalgene 1 liter bottle size) light weight 3 season bag called "the travel bag", 1.7 lbs priced at about 30 bucks. Rated for for about 50 Fahrenheit but with a beanie and a puff jacket i was warm well into the low to mid 40 degree range.

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Odd Man Out
06-24-2015, 15:34
...We all think in temperature- primarily in Fahrenheit because we are American jerks.
Science thinks in Celsius- my jerk brain has a hard time thinking in C*...

Try this:

First remember some convenient benchmarks:
-20 C = -4 F (think really cold)
-10 C = 14 F (think cold)
0 C = 32 F (freezing)
10 C = 50 F (nice round number - easy to remember - also spring in MI)
20 C = 68 F (room temp-ish)
30 C = 86 F (in MI we just call this HOT!)
40 C = you're probably not hiking, but 104 F just in case you're stuck (or what they call "cool" in Abu Dhabi)

also

37 C = 98.6 F (convenient to recall if you get sick overseas)

then remember that a 5 deg change in C is a 9 deg change if F (or 2 F = 1 C over small changes).

So you are at 15, just add 9 to 50 = 59 F

Room temp is really 72 deg F? That's 4 over 68 or about 20 + 2 = 22 C

Odd Man Out
06-24-2015, 15:37
Oh, and I forgot. In case you have to calculate some delta G values, body temperature is 310 K.

Just Bill
06-24-2015, 18:32
Try this:

First remember some convenient benchmarks:
-20 C = -4 F (think really cold)
-10 C = 14 F (think cold)
0 C = 32 F (freezing)
10 C = 50 F (nice round number - easy to remember - also spring in MI)
20 C = 68 F (room temp-ish)
30 C = 86 F (in MI we just call this HOT!)
40 C = you're probably not hiking, but 104 F just in case you're stuck (or what they call "cool" in Abu Dhabi)

also

37 C = 98.6 F (convenient to recall if you get sick overseas)

then remember that a 5 deg change in C is a 9 deg change if F (or 2 F = 1 C over small changes).

So you are at 15, just add 9 to 50 = 59 F

Room temp is really 72 deg F? That's 4 over 68 or about 20 + 2 = 22 C

You keep Kelvin outta this! He's a really nice guy.

It took me 10 years to think fluidly in grams and ounces, still not too sharp on the Kilograms.
Took the last five years to memorize all the MYOG numbers in regards to fabrics and estimating weights.
Took the last two to mainly wrap my head around this CLO business.

I'm not saying no... But Celcius (which without spell checker I apparently can't spell even) is slated for Just Bill adoption in roughly 2023, I'll pencil in November, that way I can master 1-10 C before I move into bigger numbers.

daddytwosticks
06-25-2015, 07:31
You keep Kelvin outta this! He's a really nice guy.

It took me 10 years to think fluidly in grams and ounces, still not too sharp on the Kilograms.
Took the last five years to memorize all the MYOG numbers in regards to fabrics and estimating weights.
Took the last two to mainly wrap my head around this CLO business.

I'm not saying no... But Celcius (which without spell checker I apparently can't spell even) is slated for Just Bill adoption in roughly 2023, I'll pencil in November, that way I can master 1-10 C before I move into bigger numbers.

Get ready to learn a new calendar when we go to Metric Time. :)

Bluegrass
06-25-2015, 14:41
I'm not saying no... But Celcius (which without spell checker I apparently can't spell even) is slated for Just Bill adoption in roughly 2023, I'll pencil in November, that way I can master 1-10 C before I move into bigger numbers.

I have started with -40 degrees. I figure once I remember that one I can move on from there.

swisscross
06-25-2015, 15:38
We (the USA) should have switched to metric some 40 plus years ago.

Coffee
06-25-2015, 15:41
Any opinions on the performance difference between duck down and goose down, if any? Just realized that the base revelation uses duck down while the fancier versions using 850 and 900 fill power use goose down.

Just Bill
06-25-2015, 16:51
Any opinions on the performance difference between duck down and goose down, if any? Just realized that the base revelation uses duck down while the fancier versions using 850 and 900 fill power use goose down.
There is no difference.

The perception of quality comes from the fact that ducks do not naturally produce down in higher fill powers. So early marketing touted goose down as superior because it could produce higher fill power than duck.

Even when you buy goose down it may have some duck down in it depending on the source.
Everything- feathers and down gets put in a sorter and the heavier feathers fall out, the lighter down rises and they sort it that way. And if it's your thing; you can also look into ethically sourced traceable down- but again these are moral/marketing statements that don't affect quality.

The only down that is actually superior is Eider Down, which ironically comes from a duck.

Now treated vs. non-treated down is today's hotter topic.
Once more marketing may be causing some perception issues. Consumer demand in response to the marketing is causing the product to become more prevalent. The cost is little difference so some have switched to simplify inventory and avoid having to offer the option.

Of note-
Western Mountaineering has yet to jump on the bandwagon, I would consider them one of the premier vendors of down products.
Zpacks has jumped off the bandwagon;

My (admittedly limited) personal experience is the same as theirs. I found busting clumps after initial stuffing to be very difficult and recovery time increased. (the bag did not loft well after compression) This was in a few apples to apples experiments- same shell different fill on my end in use around the relatively controlled environment of my home. It is very easy to stuff as it clings together, whereas regular down flies all over the place and the slightest sneeze or heavy breath will send it flying.
Personally I thought that any resistance to humidity/body vapor was offset by the poor recovery/re-lofting after packing. Basically- even if the treated never absorbed any moisture the lack of quick response and lower loft as a result easily outweighed any loss of performance in natural down.
It is possible that over a few wash cycles and time on the trail the treatment might relax some. Also possible I got a "sticky" batch with a heavier coating.



From the Zpacks site-http://www.zpacks.com/quilts/sleepingbag.shtml
900 Fill Power Water Resistant Down:

Water resistant down is just normal down that is washed with a water resistant treatment by the factory. In theory this treatment makes the down take longer to wet out, and may retain a little bit less water after being soaked, however real world results are hard to observe. The down still wets out after a while and you still need to be careful to keep your bag dry. I personally think that the benefits are very minor. We have also noticed that the treated down can be more clingy and can take more work to break apart clumps and fluff the bag up, which could result in cold spots if the bag isn't fluffed well.

It is for this reason that we have decided to streamline our production and discontinue WR down as a standard option as of November 2014.

Coffee
06-25-2015, 16:59
Thanks. I also noticed zPack's move away from the water resistant down and as far as I'm concerned Joe's opinion on this carries a great deal of weight. I wouldn't pay extra for it or seek it out. I've always managed to keep my bag relatively dry although one of the very few downsides of my current tent (zPacks Hexamid Twin) is that my head and feet touch the sides ever so slightly especially when using my 3 inch thermarest (less so with my prolite). My next tent is likely to be the Altaplex for that reason.

ZenRabbit
06-26-2015, 11:27
I was just ordering a Revelation Elite 20 UQ from EE last week and chose the regular 900 FP down. About an hour after placing the order, I got an email telling me that they would give me an upgrade to the DownTek 900 FP product since they have decided to stop using the untreated down.

I have the same Revelation TQ in 900 FP regular. My reasoning in getting the regular was purely based on a dislike of chemical additives, especially to something I'd be spending a lot of time very close to.

I figured that the UQ would benefit from being treated due to its exposure to humidity, mist, rain compared to the TQ. Also, the UQ will be buffered by the double layer of the hammock... Hopefully far enough away from me if any treatment used is proven unsafe... These were my conclusions, and I would probably do it the same way today if they offered me the upgrade for the TQ I have to say I'd turn it down.

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Just Bill
06-26-2015, 16:43
I was just ordering a Revelation Elite 20 UQ from EE last week and chose the regular 900 FP down. About an hour after placing the order, I got an email telling me that they would give me an upgrade to the DownTek 900 FP product since they have decided to stop using the untreated down.

I have the same Revelation TQ in 900 FP regular. My reasoning in getting the regular was purely based on a dislike of chemical additives, especially to something I'd be spending a lot of time very close to.

I figured that the UQ would benefit from being treated due to its exposure to humidity, mist, rain compared to the TQ. Also, the UQ will be buffered by the double layer of the hammock... Hopefully far enough away from me if any treatment used is proven unsafe... These were my conclusions, and I would probably do it the same way today if they offered me the upgrade for the TQ I have to say I'd turn it down.

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I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other on the chemical concerns. Likely though it's some version of the DWR we all wear in our clothes, rain jackets, (and probably the shell of your TQ too). Not to freak you out, but you're already exposed :eek:

That said- It'd be interesting to hear your thoughts when you've had time to put both through their paces.
My reasons to try the treated were the same as your's- better protection in an UQ.
On the plus side- the UQ also has gravity working in it's favor to aid in maximum loft.

But having one of each, with the same user, in the same setup is an interesting test.

Coffee
06-26-2015, 22:07
Thanks for all the feedback, especially Just Bill's detailed calculations on down fill. Very helpful! Decided on a down bag and it seems pretty hard to beat the value proposition from Enlightened equipment. So I ordered a long/regular width 40 degree bag tonight. It should weigh just over 15 ounces. I also have a custom ULA CDT on order (Circuit style rolltop rather than draw string top closure) and my summer kit will drop by 2 1/2 pounds based on these two changes alone (vs my Circuit and Marmot Helium). I'm also thinking that the Revelation should also work out pretty well on the Camino inside the albergues and, occasionally, a night stealth camping outdoors if conditions are favorable.

ZenRabbit
06-27-2015, 13:19
You're going to love that quilt, it's amazing workmanship and quality materials. I got an xped downmat 7 LW to use if I'm going to be tenting. Taking the time to get them both out and linked up last week, I was tempted to turn off my phone and sneak a nap in. :)

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v1k1ng1001
06-28-2015, 10:35
Fwiw I bought the JRB quilt because it was on sale (160...180 with treated down) and there was no lead time. I just took it down 40 in very humid damp conditions--with an insulated pad I was still a bit cold. Above 50, this quilt is just fine.

I might do the Camino next year as well...only because I'm in Spain every june.

If you feel the Camino is too pedestrian and you'd like an amazing hike akin to the Pacific nw, I'd suggest backpacking through asturius instead. I saw numerous through hikers, mostly germans. You'd need more than a 40 quilt up there any time before late july. It gets cold and there's plenty of altitude.

I also talked to a travel agent in Salamanca about hut to hut hiking in the spanish pyrenees which is a possibility.

Both of these options seem more worthwhile than the camino but would require different gear choices and logistics.

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