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Cedar1974
06-30-2015, 08:36
I'm considering getting a separate GPS to hike with since most reviews on trail apps have come back that they don't work well due to lack of coverage on the trail. Have any of you had this problem and which do you think is the better idea? Also, suggestions for decent apps would be welcome too. I use an iPhone 4s currently, though will be upgrading in January.

Traveler
06-30-2015, 09:28
It really depends on what you will use it for and where. If you plan to hike well walked trails like the AT, you likely won't have much problem in losing the trail and a cell phone may be a nice way to track progress or stats. If you are in the back country following "approximate" routes to various places (as in desert hiking where there are not many real trails for example), you will probably want something more robust.

For what its worth, I find the articles I have read regarding the use of Smartphones or GPS units to mirror my own experience. I use a Garmin 60 CSx when out on trails. It gets outstanding coverage under fairly robust canopies and in canyons usually. There have only been a handful of times I have lost signal with it in WA state in some of the tall old growth forests. This and the 64 model supposedly have the best canopy/canyon signal reception but that could have changed in the past year. Cell phones may provide a back up, but not much beats a paper map, compass, and a GPS with the varied functions.

Slo-go'en
06-30-2015, 10:32
Most (if not all) phones have a GPS receiver built in. What they don't have is the maps, which they get via the cell towers when needed. Like when you use Google maps. But if you pre-load the maps you need for the area your in and have a GPS app which will interface between the two you can use it anywhere. The problem is topo maps require a lot of data storage so depending on how much area you want to cover, you might need several SD cards to hold it all.

I have a little hand held Garmin GPS unit which is next to useless as the screen is so small you can't see any detail more then 1/4 mile away if you zoom out. It also has the same memory limitations, so it has to have the maps for the area of interest loaded first.

I have a Samsung Galaxy Tab 3, 7" tablet with a GPS with a free app called "ViewRanger GPS" which works pretty good except the GSP receiver in the Tab is not very good and takes a long time to lock and pretty much never under canopy or rain. It also sucks the battery dry really fast.

HooKooDooKu
06-30-2015, 10:48
When my wife and I go on walks in the neighborhood, I use my Garmin GPS and she uses some fitness app for her iPhone 4s. On our dedicated loop, her fitness app always says we've hiked right at 2.0 miles, but my Garmin consistently says we've only gone 1.85 miles. Can't say for sure which is more accurate but my vote would be that a dedicated GPS unit is getting more accurate results than an iPhone app.

Singto
06-30-2015, 11:01
Good info and guidance. I didn't know about the View Ranger App. I'm gonna give that a try on my Samsung Grand 2 phone. Thanks Slo-go'en.

md1486
06-30-2015, 11:05
When my wife and I go on walks in the neighborhood, I use my Garmin GPS and she uses some fitness app for her iPhone 4s. On our dedicated loop, her fitness app always says we've hiked right at 2.0 miles, but my Garmin consistently says we've only gone 1.85 miles. Can't say for sure which is more accurate but my vote would be that a dedicated GPS unit is getting more accurate results than an iPhone app.

I have a Garmin GPSMAP 60Cx and I hike the Mt Adams this weekend by the Air Line trail and down by Valley Way. On many internet sites they give 14,5km and my GPS gave me 11.1km. I never lost signal the entire day. I'm also asking myself which is wrong.

Connie
06-30-2015, 11:46
XGPS 150A or XGPS160 Sky Pro bluetooth GPS receivers work with a bluetooth-enabled smart phone and four or five others' bluetooth-enabled smart phones or bluetooth-enabled laptops or tablets, if you like.

Highly recommended, if away from cell phone service.

Traveler
06-30-2015, 11:52
I have a Garmin GPSMAP 60Cx and I hike the Mt Adams this weekend by the Air Line trail and down by Valley Way. On many internet sites they give 14,5km and my GPS gave me 11.1km. I never lost signal the entire day. I'm also asking myself which is wrong.

Could that discrepancy be the elevation gain figured into the mileage?

BrianLe
06-30-2015, 12:18
I suggest that if you use the GPS a lot, and/or really depend on it, and/or have problems recharging a cell phone, then a standalone GPS can make sense. If you like having one but use it infrequently and/or don't really 'need' it, and you don't have a major problem with your smartphone running out of power, then having the right smartphone + software setup is a better choice. Or at least that's how it's worked out for me.

I bought a somewhat expensive GPS for hiking the CDT and was glad that I had it. But then I sold it on Craig's list after I was done; I didn't see myself using one very often after that. Then I bought a cheaper but perfectly fine GPS to use on the Pacific NW Trail (for much the same reason) and will hang on to that for similar use.

The key issue for me is being on a power budget. If I want to feel free to use the GPS more often, typically on less well-marked and/or well defined trails, then I don't want to have to have the GPS compete with other uses of the smartphone (for me: camera, blogging device, access to internet for uploading blogs and getting weather reports when possible, voice recorder, occasional book reader ...). With a separate GPS device I can carry a spare pair of lithium AA batteries at the cost of 1 ounce, and they're relatively easy to buy along the way in trail towns. I go the same way with MP3 player when I carry one, for the same reason.

Starchild
06-30-2015, 14:16
I would go with the smartphone. There are a bunch of off line map apps (so cellular service is not required), and they are just getting better all the time, The smartphone is where the advancements are coming to first. It's something you have already, so not a extra thing. Many apps are geared towards locating your position when and only when you ask, so you save batteries over continuous tracking.

gpburdelljr
06-30-2015, 14:32
Could that discrepancy be the elevation gain figured into the mileage?

Only if the grade was 97.6%

HooKooDooKu
06-30-2015, 14:34
Could that discrepancy be the elevation gain figured into the mileage?
Only if the two devices calculate distances differently.

I know in the case of my wife's iPhone App, it tracks changes in elevation and uses that info along with body weight to help calculate estimated calories burned.

My GPS, in addition to tracking elevation change with GPS technology, supplements changes in elevation via an air pressure sensor.

Just Bill
06-30-2015, 14:46
http://www.amazon.com/Silva-Starter-1-2-3-Compass/dp/B000COOUAA

Under an ounce.
No batteries.
Works under tree cover, in canyons, and even with one eye closed.
Screen won't fog, no moving parts to break.
Waterproof, highly shock resistant.
Costs $12, includes lifetime service plan.
Don't need wi-fi or bluetooth to update.
Pairs perfectly with your I-Phone.

Venchka
06-30-2015, 14:49
Assuming that Cedar1974 is talking about hiking the AT:
How many folks completed all, or large sections, of the AT long before there were smart phones or GPS?
I rest my case.
HYOH.

Wayne

Venchka
06-30-2015, 14:50
http://www.amazon.com/Silva-Starter-1-2-3-Compass/dp/B000COOUAA

Under an ounce.
No batteries.
Works under tree cover, in canyons, and even with one eye closed.
Screen won't fog, no moving parts to break.
Waterproof, highly shock resistant.
Costs $12, includes lifetime service plan.
Don't need wi-fi or bluetooth to update.
Pairs perfectly with your I-Phone.


Assuming that Cedar1974 is talking about hiking the AT:
How many folks completed all, or large sections, of the AT long before there were smart phones or GPS?
I rest my case.
HYOH.

Wayne

There you go.

Wayne

10-K
06-30-2015, 14:55
I like maps for the big picture but nothing says "You are here" like a GPS.

If you live in the southeast GSMNP offers a weekend long, ranger led map-compass course that's very good. I've taken it and a few other orienting classes - it's great fun but it's one of those things that require a lot of practice to get good at.

rocketsocks
06-30-2015, 15:27
Better still is a cheap $20 dollar gps off the net, and a map, plot those numbers and you're golden.

Walkintom
06-30-2015, 16:43
When your GPS seems to be under-reporting mileage, you may want to look at how often it is updating location.

If you follow a path that is not a direct line, such as a switchback or simply curving trail, and the GPS updates location - is it doing so often enough to reflect the path that you are following? If your GPS updates every 10 minutes - how much of a switchback have you traveled in 10 minutes?

I tend to believe that this causes more distance discrepancies by far than elevation changes.

Of course, other things could be coming into play - this is just one thing to look into.

Rex Clifton
06-30-2015, 17:05
If you bushwack you definitely want to go with a GPS. The Garmin Oregon is probably the best unit on the market. Of you stick to trails, a phone will do fine to give you coordinates but I have yet to find a map app that works well. You can easily find your position, however, by bringing along a map. Pencil a UTM grid on the map and set your phone that way. With a simple protractor it will take you less than 30 seconds to plot your position.

HooKooDooKu
07-01-2015, 09:29
When your GPS seems to be under-reporting mileage, you may want to look at how often it is updating location.

If you follow a path that is not a direct line, such as a switchback or simply curving trail, and the GPS updates location - is it doing so often enough to reflect the path that you are following? If your GPS updates every 10 minutes - how much of a switchback have you traveled in 10 minutes?

I tend to believe that this causes more distance discrepancies by far than elevation changes.

Of course, other things could be coming into play - this is just one thing to look into.
We are walking the neighborhood, and it's my eTrex that "seems to be under reporting"... but when I've looked at a track log of other walks in the neighborhood, I can perfectly see the 'bulb' of the cul-de-sacs that I walk thru. So if it were a case of not updating the location frequently enough, I would expect to see irregular edges, not smooth cul-de-sac shaped curves.

Gnomad
07-01-2015, 10:00
This seems to be relevant: http://adventurealan.com/iphone4gps.htm

Offshore
07-01-2015, 13:03
It really depends on what you will use it for and where. If you plan to hike well walked trails like the AT, you likely won't have much problem in losing the trail and a cell phone may be a nice way to track progress or stats. If you are in the back country following "approximate" routes to various places (as in desert hiking where there are not many real trails for example), you will probably want something more robust.

For what its worth, I find the articles I have read regarding the use of Smartphones or GPS units to mirror my own experience. I use a Garmin 60 CSx when out on trails. It gets outstanding coverage under fairly robust canopies and in canyons usually. There have only been a handful of times I have lost signal with it in WA state in some of the tall old growth forests. This and the 64 model supposedly have the best canopy/canyon signal reception but that could have changed in the past year. Cell phones may provide a back up, but not much beats a paper map, compass, and a GPS with the varied functions.

Another big fan of a handheld GPS (Garmin GPSMap 60csx) over a cell phone. My number 1 reason is battery life. Using a GPS continuously on your cell phone will kill the battery in an hour or two while the current Garmin GPSMap 64 models will go for hours and hours on a set of replaceable lithium ion batteries (bonus of Li ion over alkaline is that in addition to lasting longer, they are a lot lighter so its not a big deal to toss a spare set in the pack). I use Avenza PDF maps on my iPhone to check my position on a map occasionally, but for navigation, I use my Garmin loaded with the 1:24000 topos.

QiWiz
07-01-2015, 16:45
I would go with the smartphone. There are a bunch of off line map apps (so cellular service is not required), and they are just getting better all the time, The smartphone is where the advancements are coming to first. It's something you have already, so not a extra thing. Many apps are geared towards locating your position when and only when you ask, so you save batteries over continuous tracking.

+1
When I started to use Gaia GPS on an iPhone, I ended up selling off my dedicated GPS because I no longer used/needed it. You do not need a cellular connection. You can download maps (USGS topo) so that you know exactly where you are. You can download a track (like the AT) so that you also know if you are on trail. What more do you need?

garyp
07-01-2015, 20:24
+1
When I started to use Gaia GPS on an iPhone, I ended up selling off my dedicated GPS because I no longer used/needed it. You do not need a cellular connection. You can download maps (USGS topo) so that you know exactly where you are. You can download a track (like the AT) so that you also know if you are on trail. What more do you need?

I used my phone on the JMT and it would drain my battery like no tomorrow. I am debating getting a dedicated GPS instead of my phone.

Starchild
07-01-2015, 21:00
I used my phone on the JMT and it would drain my battery like no tomorrow. I am debating getting a dedicated GPS instead of my phone.

If you use your phone for tracking, then yes it will deplete your battery very fast, but why would you need tracking for normal hiking? The hiking apps that are really worth it I have found are apps that will just get your location when you request it. Those apps sip power unless you check constantly.

As for tracking, and just a FYI, I use a tracking app while group hiking so stragglers can find the group. I get about 6 hours on a full charge to 20% on my iPhone. That app not only uses GPS but also continuous cellular service to transmit my location.

MuddyWaters
07-01-2015, 21:14
I wont use a gps for any more that spot checks, and source of electronic maps. A phone will do this fine.

A phone without a cell signal eats battery life. Keep phone turned off except when need. Problem solved.

BrianLe
07-02-2015, 11:40
"I wont use a gps for any more that spot checks, and source of electronic maps. A phone will do this fine."

For shorter trips and infrequent spot checks that's true. The power issue comes into play when you're hiking for long periods where the opportunity to recharge is relatively rare, and doing it on a trail that is less well marked, and/or perhaps where a GPS is helpful for other issues.

Connie
07-02-2015, 11:49
Pactically everywhere I hike, there is no cell phone service.

The phone "GPS" gets coordinates from triangulating cell towers. If WiFi, the cell phone "GPS" gets coordinates from triangulating WiFi systems and modems that allow location services.

If your cell phone has an internal actual GPS, I would like to know about it.

I recommended the most accurate pocket GPS I know. It has the advantage of working with practically any software or app. It works with iPhone, Android phones, iPad, iPod, Android tablets, Windows tablets, and maybe even a Kindle if it has a map app and Bluetooth.

10-K
07-02-2015, 11:53
Pactically everywhere I hike, there is no cell phone service.

The phone "GPS" gets coordinates from triangulating cell towers. If WiFi, the cell phone "GPS" gets coordinates from triangulating WiFi systems and modems that allow location services.

If your cell phone has an internal actual GPS, I would like to know about it.

I recommended the most accurate pocket GPS I know. It has the advantage of working with practically any software or app. It works with iPhone, Android phones, iPad, iPod, Android tablets, Windows tablets, and maybe even a Kindle if it has a map app and Bluetooth.

An iPhone has a GPS chip... You can google it, there's lots of info on it.

Connie
07-02-2015, 11:58
I have been in iFans forum years: I am Geekgrrl.

Its "news" to me.

We have had several discussion forum threads over the years at that iPod Touch Fans/iFans Cupertino Apple "skunkworks" forum iPhone does not have an actual GPS that gets coordinates from satellites.

Connie
07-02-2015, 12:05
Ooh, pictures... Google
apple iphone gps chip

I looked at the adventurealan link (above) as well.

I have looked at side-by-side comparisons that show the iPhone GPS is not highly accurate. It may be fine for bicycling trips, but if I am bushwacking the Pacific Northwest Trail looking for a better line if no trail, I like precision.

That said, I understand the AT doesn't have that problem. If early or late season, snow can obscure the trail. I have heard people unintentionally get off the white blaze trail, as well. That's about it.

10-K
07-02-2015, 12:11
This isn't one of those things I need to be right about but for what it's worth there's a decent writeup here.. FWIW, the iPod touch does not have a GPS nor do wifi only iPads. The GPS on an iPhone is on the chip that provides cellular communications. That's why an iPhone GPS won't work in airplane mode but an Android phone GPS does.

http://tewha.net/2011/10/how-the-iphone-gps-differs-from-a-standalone-navigation-gps/

iOS Hardware Models

First, some iOS devices have a GPS chip and some do not.


A device with a GPS chip can identify your location (usually within 10 or 20 meters) even when it has no WIFI or Cellular signal. A device without a GPS chip can identify your approximate location only when it has a WIFI signal; these devices are still useful tools for looking at maps but will not show your location on the map while you are hiking.
All iPhone models (4, 4S, 5, 5C, 5S, 6, 6+) include a GPS chip.
No iPod-Touch model has a GPS chip.
All iPad models that have 3G or Cellular also have GPS chip and therefore behave like an iPhone for mapping purposes. The WIFI-only iPads do not have a GPS chip and therefore behave like an iPod Touch for mapping purposes.

Starchild
07-02-2015, 12:35
For shorter trips and infrequent spot checks that's true. The power issue comes into play when you're hiking for long periods where the opportunity to recharge is relatively rare, and doing it on a trail that is less well marked, and/or perhaps where a GPS is helpful for other issues.

How many days are you going w/o recharge? I could go about 10 days + with my phone + 5000 mAh battery pack using GPS (on demand - 'spot checking' as you put it), music, audio books, occasional use of cellular/data and even streaming music and on line maps & daily weather. The battery pack is comparable in weight to if not slightly less then that of a handheld GPS.

A handheld GPS should be more rugged/water resistant and they commonly get 20 hours or so out of 2xAA batteries continuous tracking. IDK if they can do 'spot checks', if so that may be practically unlimited use.

Starchild
07-02-2015, 12:45
This isn't one of those things I need to be right about but for what it's worth there's a decent writeup here.. FWIW, the iPod touch does not have a GPS nor do wifi only iPads. The GPS on an iPhone is on the chip that provides cellular communications. That's why an iPhone GPS won't work in airplane mode but an Android phone GPS does.

http://tewha.net/2011/10/how-the-iphone-gps-differs-from-a-standalone-navigation-gps/

iOS Hardware Models

First, some iOS devices have a GPS chip and some do not.


A device with a GPS chip can identify your location (usually within 10 or 20 meters) even when it has no WIFI or Cellular signal. A device without a GPS chip can identify your approximate location only when it has a WIFI signal; these devices are still useful tools for looking at maps but will not show your location on the map while you are hiking.
All iPhone models (4, 4S, 5, 5C, 5S, 6, 6+) include a GPS chip.
No iPod-Touch model has a GPS chip.
All iPad models that have 3G or Cellular also have GPS chip and therefore behave like an iPhone for mapping purposes. The WIFI-only iPads do not have a GPS chip and therefore behave like an iPod Touch for mapping purposes.



Bold part mine, it is not true what you state, well not true anymore. The iPhones will allow the use of GPS while in airplane mode, while not using cellular. It may or may not be on the same chip, but the antennas for GPS and Cellular are separate and can and do get used independently. It is true that the iPhone will use cellular and wifi to get a better/quicker lock on your position, but it is not required.

Now at one time using airplane mode on the iPhone would turn off all antennas, so you could not use GPS, but that was limited in iOS (software) and not a hardware limitation. That was changed to allow GPS (and WiFi) many iOS versions ago.

The iPhone will also use GPS fine by itsel if there is no cellular service or WiFi signal.

10-K
07-02-2015, 13:54
Bold part mine, it is not true what you state, well not true anymore. The iPhones will allow the use of GPS while in airplane mode, while not using cellular. It may or may not be on the same chip, but the antennas for GPS and Cellular are separate and can and do get used independently. It is true that the iPhone will use cellular and wifi to get a better/quicker lock on your position, but it is not required.

Now at one time using airplane mode on the iPhone would turn off all antennas, so you could not use GPS, but that was limited in iOS (software) and not a hardware limitation. That was changed to allow GPS (and WiFi) many iOS versions ago.

The iPhone will also use GPS fine by itsel if there is no cellular service or WiFi signal.

You are correct! From what I can tell by googling GPS started working with the release of iOS 8.3. How cool is that... Now we can use the GPS without the battery drain of having cellular on with no service always searching-searching-searching.

Thanks for pointing that out.

(I notice you say "Many versions of iOS ago" but I'm pretty sure it did not work in iOS 7.x because I was hiking the PCT then and no GPS in airplane mode for certain. Everything I can find googling says GPS did not require airplane mode beginning with iOS 8.3.)

Venchka
07-02-2015, 14:22
When my wife and I go on walks in the neighborhood, I use my Garmin GPS and she uses some fitness app for her iPhone 4s. On our dedicated loop, her fitness app always says we've hiked right at 2.0 miles, but my Garmin consistently says we've only gone 1.85 miles. Can't say for sure which is more accurate but my vote would be that a dedicated GPS unit is getting more accurate results than an iPhone app.
I have Argus on my iPhone 5s. It has a setting for stride length. Out of the box it uses a preset stride length. Perhaps your wife's app uses something similar and she has not calibrated her stride length.

Wayne

garyp
07-02-2015, 14:28
I have all trails map ap and one thing I noticed was that the map wouldn't fully load. I downloaded it and followed the instructions however the app ate my battery like no tomorrow and I couldn't get see anything on the map at all due to the map wouldn't load. For me that was a worthless app and I even made sure I stated this on the rate the app.

Starchild
07-02-2015, 14:38
(I notice you say "Many versions of iOS ago" but I'm pretty sure it did not work in iOS 7.x because I was hiking the PCT then and no GPS in airplane mode for certain. Everything I can find googling says GPS did not require airplane mode beginning with iOS 8.3.)
I'm not exactly sure when, I can do it right now on my old iPhone 4 with iOS 5.1.1, it is jailbroken IDK if I had that ability though the iOS or added it through the JB.

Fredt4
07-02-2015, 21:41
Pactically everywhere I hike, there is no cell phone service.

The phone "GPS" gets coordinates from triangulating cell towers. If WiFi, the cell phone "GPS" gets coordinates from triangulating WiFi systems and modems that allow location services.

If your cell phone has an internal actual GPS, I would like to know about it.

I recommended the most accurate pocket GPS I know. It has the advantage of working with practically any software or app. It works with iPhone, Android phones, iPad, iPod, Android tablets, Windows tablets, and maybe even a Kindle if it has a map app and Bluetooth.

Most Android phones don't use cell towers for the GPS unless they're available. Used a LG on my 2011 AT thru hike for this reason. My previous phone required cell towers to get a fix. Pretty certain Apple phones no longer require a cell tower.

My biggest reasons for recommending cellphone over GPS are:
One device vs two
I use my phones GPS regularly so I'm familiar with the interface. Many times I've come across weekenders that were unfamiliar with their GPS.
Don't need multiple charging devices.

Backcountry Navigator app is the best app I've found for off-line use.

MuddyWaters
07-02-2015, 21:59
If your cell phone has an internal actual GPS, I would like to know about it.

What rock you live under?
Not only do they support gps, but glonass (russian) as well.

BrianLe
07-03-2015, 05:17
"How many days are you going w/o recharge? I could go about 10 days + with my phone + 5000 mAh battery pack using GPS (on demand - 'spot checking' as you put it), music, audio books, occasional use of cellular/data and even streaming music and on line maps & daily weather. The battery pack is comparable in weight to if not slightly less then that of a handheld GPS.

A handheld GPS should be more rugged/water resistant and they commonly get 20 hours or so out of 2xAA batteries continuous tracking. IDK if they can do 'spot checks', if so that may be practically unlimited use."

Number of days between recharge varies; the longest stretches I've gone have been a couple of 8-day periods.
A battery pack is okay if you must use one; Samsung phones (up until now with the Galaxy S6) have removable batteries; that's what I do, carry one or even two spares. Two spare batteries are a lot lighter than the battery pack/recharger unit that I own (maybe there are lighter ones out there, dunno).

I agree that handheld GPS units are typically more rugged. My Galaxy S5, however, has an IPX67 rating, which means it's completely dust resistant and "pretty" waterproof (can submerge to 1 meter for half an hour). So I don't worry about it in the rain, etc. And fortunately I don't tend to drop my phone or bang it around much!

I used my handheld GPS a fair bit on the CDT, and I can tell you that just doing "spot checks" does not mean you have practically unlimited use! And I think the truth is that most of us that say we do just spot checks will on occasion leave the GPS on "for a while" in certain situations. For example, if I'm off trail and navigating back to it --- might be on for a few minutes. If the trail on the ground doesn't match very well with the trail (that might or might not be) on my map. If I'm looking for a specific food cache or water (point) source that I don't want to miss. Etc. But mostly the GPS receiver is "off".

Responding to another post, I think that every smartphone I've used has had a GPS chipset --- no cell towers involved, and my cell 'radio' is almost always off while I'm in the backcountry. And indeed, units that receive Glonass are becoming more common. I live and often hike in the NW, so the Russian satellite system is a very nice augment for me to the U.S. system. I made sure before buying my current phone that it would be able to use both U.S. and Glonass satellites in conjunction. Result: quicker fix and more accuracy.

Starchild
07-03-2015, 07:26
...
A battery pack is okay if you must use one; Samsung phones (up until now with the Galaxy S6) have removable batteries; that's what I do, carry one or even two spares. Two spare batteries are a lot lighter than the battery pack/recharger unit that I own (maybe there are lighter ones out there, dunno)....
Extra batteries have their advantages. I almost considered this for my iPhone with the tamper resistant screws removed to make it field replaceable.

But how do you recharge all those batteries? Do you need to do them one at a time in the phone or can you charge all at once (do they make a spare battery recharger, and is that weight efficient? Not a issue for a short backpack, but once you start dealing with resupply how do you handle it?

10-K
07-03-2015, 07:49
I'm interested to see how long my iPhone battery will last now that the GPS will function in Airplane mode... Starchild, that bit of news made my week!

On the CDT I'm carrying a battery that will recharge the phone 5 times - that should give me at least 8 days in the field. Being somewhat paranoid, I also have the CDT track and all the waypoints from Beacons databook on my Garmin GPS with a fresh set of lithiums.

bigcranky
07-03-2015, 08:28
My iPhone 6+ loses only 1% per day on airplane mode, which means I can leave it turned on for instant access to the camera, GPS, etc. For what I consider relatively heavy use, I use at most 10% of the battery per day, so I can go a long time between charges. (Heavy use = multiple GPS spot readings to find my location, several attempts to get data on top of a random mountain somewhere so I can see a radar map, and writing in my journal on Day One in the evening. No phone calls, no video, no photos -- I have a separate camera.)

I use Gaia GPS and pre-download the maps. Many of the hikers we met last week were using the Guthook app (http://www.guthookhikes.com/apps), which I will try next time. (Kicking myself when I see there was a Guthook app for the Long Trail last year. Alas.)

10-K
07-03-2015, 08:34
My iPhone 6+ loses only 1% per day on airplane mode, which means I can leave it turned on for instant access to the camera, GPS, etc. For what I consider relatively heavy use, I use at most 10% of the battery per day, so I can go a long time between charges. (Heavy use = multiple GPS spot readings to find my location, several attempts to get data on top of a random mountain somewhere so I can see a radar map, and writing in my journal on Day One in the evening. No phone calls, no video, no photos -- I have a separate camera.)

I use Gaia GPS and pre-download the maps. Many of the hikers we met last week were using the Guthook app (http://www.guthookhikes.com/apps), which I will try next time. (Kicking myself when I see there was a Guthook app for the Long Trail last year. Alas.)

What I'm wondering though is how battery life will be affected now that GPS will work in airplane mode and the issue with battery drain due to searching for cellular service is no more.

Of these scenarios I wonder which is (most) correct:

1. GPS is on all the time whether an app is using it or not. This means that you could go a LONG-LONG time between recharges using the iPhone as a GPS in airplane mode.

2. GPS only comes on when an app requests it. Still the battery will last longer than before because the phone isn't searching for a cell signal but battery life will be shorter than in #1 above.

2a. If #2 is correct will the GPS stay on if the app is working in the background? ( that could be tweaked in the settings area in the 'Background refresh" section I suppose.

CoolBobby
07-03-2015, 08:43
I have been in iFans forum years: I am Geekgrrl.

Its "news" to me.

We have had several discussion forum threads over the years at that iPod Touch Fans/iFans Cupertino Apple "skunkworks" forum iPhone does not have an actual GPS that gets coordinates from satellites.
Most current smart phones have a GPS chips in them now. I am a electronic forensic specialist, and routinely pull GPS chips off all the current phones.

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Grinder
07-03-2015, 08:52
+1 on the thought "Phones on GPS eat batteries" Plus, my phone takes forever to lock in. very frusterating.

Starchild
07-03-2015, 08:57
What I'm wondering though is how battery life will be affected now that GPS will work in airplane mode and the issue with battery drain due to searching for cellular service is no more.

Of these scenarios I wonder which is (most) correct:

1. GPS is on all the time whether an app is using it or not. This means that you could go a LONG-LONG time between recharges using the iPhone as a GPS in airplane mode.

2. GPS only comes on when an app requests it. Still the battery will last longer than before because the phone isn't searching for a cell signal but battery life will be shorter than in #1 above.

2a. If #2 is correct will the GPS stay on if the app is working in the background? ( that could be tweaked in the settings area in the 'Background refresh" section I suppose.

2 & 2a are the correct answers,

Put the phone into airplane mode, then toggle GPS on or off as you wish. If you leave it on and you have any apps that can access the GPS in the background and you have allowed it in settings then it will use it for whatever the app does with it. That could be continuous, or it could be intermittent, it could also be only when the app is in the foreground. Not all apps have all options, actually most do not, it's a take the option we give you or leave it thing.

GPS's antenna does take power, it will shorten battery life if you use it (if a app is using it, that location icon looks like a narrow triangle means that something it). I believe you will be disappointed for tracking, but if spot checking it will last a long time.

Starchild
07-03-2015, 09:10
My iPhone 6+ loses only 1% per day on airplane mode,

Just a aside about airplane mode, I have found it may, under some circumstances, hurt the battery, but most likely will not the way it is used for hiking. When I got my new iPhone I wanted to see how long my old iPhone would go in airplane mode, so I ran a test. On day 16 it was down to apx 50% power (I was hopeful to get a month and was on track for that. I never put on anything or did anything with it except just once per day hit the home button to see how it was going. By day 20 it had dropped to about 25%. One day 21 it was off needed about a hour to recharge to come back to life. It did charge to 100% but that took a great toll on the battery and it never had that performance again, it would drop from 100 to 80% in one night on airplane mode. I keep it plugged in all the time now.

What I suspect happened is that the battery was draining so slowly it confused the charge level circuitry, reporting a higher state of charge then it really was. The battery actually ran well below 0% (all Li-ion batteries can do this, as well as go above 100% but at the expense of overall battery life, and why there is circuitry to prevent this and create a artificial 0% and 100%). Such a low state of charge (far below zero by evidence of the long recharge time back to life), just ate up the battery and shortened its life.

In hiking situations the spot checking, occasional use should prevent the above from happening.

saltysack
07-03-2015, 09:13
Bold part mine, it is not true what you state, well not true anymore. The iPhones will allow the use of GPS while in airplane mode, while not using cellular. It may or may not be on the same chip, but the antennas for GPS and Cellular are separate and can and do get used independently. It is true that the iPhone will use cellular and wifi to get a better/quicker lock on your position, but it is not required.

Now at one time using airplane mode on the iPhone would turn off all antennas, so you could not use GPS, but that was limited in iOS (software) and not a hardware limitation. That was changed to allow GPS (and WiFi) many iOS versions ago.

The iPhone will also use GPS fine by itsel if there is no cellular service or WiFi signal.

Forgive me I'm not techy....
I plan to use my iPhone 6+ on jmt periodically to check location.(guthook jmt app)....any tips...how do u view map in airplane mode? App tips?


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10-K
07-03-2015, 09:19
Just a aside about airplane mode, I have found it may, under some circumstances, hurt the battery, but most likely will not the way it is used for hiking. When I got my new iPhone I wanted to see how long my old iPhone would go in airplane mode, so I ran a test. On day 16 it was down to apx 50% power (I was hopeful to get a month and was on track for that. I never put on anything or did anything with it except just once per day hit the home button to see how it was going. By day 20 it had dropped to about 25%. One day 21 it was off needed about a hour to recharge to come back to life. It did charge to 100% but that took a great toll on the battery and it never had that performance again, it would drop from 100 to 80% in one night on airplane mode. I keep it plugged in all the time now.

What I suspect happened is that the battery was draining so slowly it confused the charge level circuitry, reporting a higher state of charge then it really was. The battery actually ran well below 0% (all Li-ion batteries can do this, as well as go above 100% but at the expense of overall battery life, and why there is circuitry to prevent this and create a artificial 0% and 100%). Such a low state of charge (far below zero by evidence of the long recharge time back to life), just ate up the battery and shortened its life.

In hiking situations the spot checking, occasional use should prevent the above from happening.

I periodically reset my iPhones battery charging circuitry (or whatever it is).. Here's a brief article explaining it and how to do it: http://www.appledystopia.com/how-to/calibrate-iphone-battery/

Starchild
07-03-2015, 10:04
Forgive me I'm not techy....
I plan to use my iPhone 6+ on jmt periodically to check location.(guthook jmt app)....any tips...how do u view map in airplane mode? App tips?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Swipe up from bottom, push the airplane mode button to enter it.

Go to settings>location services. It should be on (green) if you want to use the GPS, or off if you want to force it off. You can also limit what apps can use the GPS, good if you find the GPS running but you don't know what is using it.

When your phone is using the GPS it will display that narrow triangle angle symbol near the battery. See the immediate above posting to determine what to do if that icon is lit.



To view the maps, just open the app, the maps should be preloaded, you don't need a cell connection for them. You may need to specify which maps to download, so better check this ahead of time.

Dogwood
07-03-2015, 10:31
I might hire one of you as my hiking electronics advisor should that 3 letter domain name I have sell for the big bucks I'm expecting. :) Oh that's silly. You don't need an hiking electronics advisor. Oh yes I do. Up to this day I never knew there was any such thing as an electronics forensics specialist.

QiWiz
07-03-2015, 11:16
I used my phone on the JMT and it would drain my battery like no tomorrow. I am debating getting a dedicated GPS instead of my phone.

I used my iPhone on the JMT last year as well. Used both Gaia GPS and Guthook's app for navigation on trail. The devil is in the details, as usual. You DO need to manage battery life. As long as I just use the iPhone to check position form time to time, and leave it in Airplane mode the rest of the time so that it is not constantly trying to find a nonexistant cellular signal, I routinely get 4-5 days of use on trail before needing to recharge (I bring an external battery pack for this if I'm out for more than 4 days, as I did on the JMT). If you want to create tracks, most dedicated GPS units will perform more efficiently as far as battery life than an iPhone.

BrianLe
07-03-2015, 12:58
"But how do you recharge all those batteries? Do you need to do them one at a time in the phone or can you charge all at once (do they make a spare battery recharger, and is that weight efficient? Not a issue for a short backpack, but once you start dealing with resupply how do you handle it?"

The most I ever carry are two spare batteries, and more typically just one, depending on the trip. I don't carry a separate battery charge unit; the whole point here is minimal gear and light weight! So yes, I need to sort of monitor it on zero or nero days (i.e., time off the trail) to swap out the one battery once it's fully charged and get the next one charging. It's not that big a deal, just part of a set of habits one gets in when managing precious "in town" time.

In terms of phone power just in general --- it's a potentially complicated topic. It can be kept simple, but to really get the most out of your phone battery, there's some learning and a bit of work involved. Some people use a battery minimizing app. My phone has built in a "power saving" mode that is somewhat user configurable. For some (many, most?) phones, you can dig into your operating system to see just what has been using power recently, and then see what to do about the heavy users. The screen is often a big one, but keeping it dim or off or even just monochrome can help. Some apps are very "active", and you potentially have to find a way to fight back against the ones that want to do too much "city background crap" while you're in the backcountry.

Work this as much or as little as makes sense to you, but be aware that there can be a learning curve and a time hit to really get on top of it. Being my mostly "all-in-one" device, I've found it worth while to learn and even practice with this a bit to get more out of my batteries.

Traveler
07-03-2015, 15:39
One of the problems I had some years ago with GPS was the device being able to "see" the satellite under heavy canopies, in canyons and ravines, especially if there were trees obscuring the sky. The Garmin 60 CSx has only failed me twice, once in a slot canyon out west, and once in some old growth forests in the Olympic Peninsula.

I am curious how well the GPS in smart phones can "see" through canopies, given the antenna is relatively small compared to the Garmin designed for that use. I know my iPhone 5 loses signal relatively easily in heavy canopy, but I always seem to get the last product off the assembly line before the 2- week shut down, so it may be my device.

MuddyWaters
07-03-2015, 22:42
One of the problems I had some years ago with GPS was the device being able to "see" the satellite under heavy canopies, in canyons and ravines, especially if there were trees obscuring the sky. The Garmin 60 CSx has only failed me twice, once in a slot canyon out west, and once in some old growth forests in the Olympic Peninsula.

I am curious how well the GPS in smart phones can "see" through canopies, given the antenna is relatively small compared to the Garmin designed for that use. I know my iPhone 5 loses signal relatively easily in heavy canopy, but I always seem to get the last product off the assembly line before the 2- week shut down, so it may be my device.

Yeah, all gps engines are not equal.
I used to have a heavy lowrance, that could lock on under tree cover far, far better than magellan or garmins of the time. It worked indoors often.

Word is, cell phone gps is weak by comparison to dedicated units.

garyp
08-17-2015, 12:32
The problem I have found is the maps won't load even if you download the maps prior. I have used several to include all trails etc. It killed my battery and while doing the JMT I wasn't able to load my maps even though I pre-downloaded the entire JMT route on my phone with 3 map apps. I am leaning towards a stand alone GPS due to the fact that where I hike in the Sierra mountains there are no cell towers and the apps are not working.

perdidochas
08-17-2015, 16:25
Pactically everywhere I hike, there is no cell phone service.

The phone "GPS" gets coordinates from triangulating cell towers. If WiFi, the cell phone "GPS" gets coordinates from triangulating WiFi systems and modems that allow location services.

If your cell phone has an internal actual GPS, I would like to know about it.

I recommended the most accurate pocket GPS I know. It has the advantage of working with practically any software or app. It works with iPhone, Android phones, iPad, iPod, Android tablets, Windows tablets, and maybe even a Kindle if it has a map app and Bluetooth.

Most of the better smart phones these days have GPS chips. I know the Iphones do, and it's independent of the cell towers (although, granted, it does work better with cell service, since it uses the location found with the cell towers in conjunction with the gps satellites, to get a faster fix). The GPS in an Iphone is inferior to a dedicated unit, but it it still a true GPS.

joedperk
08-17-2015, 16:45
I use a IPhone 6+ with a bad elf gps receiver... turn on airplane mode... launch blue tooth... pair devices... it does well in canopy and also will pick up 6 or 7 satellites inside house.. also use motionx gps as a app... which gives my wife peace of mind as she can follow me on my hike... (must have cell service to upload the info) I find the combination to work very well... using it on golf course battery life is excellent... check them out on their site... http://bad-elf.com/

fiddlehead
08-17-2015, 20:45
http://www.amazon.com/Silva-Starter-1-2-3-Compass/dp/B000COOUAA

Under an ounce.
No batteries.
Works under tree cover, in canyons, and even with one eye closed.
Screen won't fog, no moving parts to break.
Waterproof, highly shock resistant.
Costs $12, includes lifetime service plan.
Don't need wi-fi or bluetooth to update.
Pairs perfectly with your I-Phone.

When you are in the middle of the desert, with only one spring within 15 miles, and you are running low on water, I'll take the GPS with the waypoint of the spring over the SILVA any day.
But, having both WILL save your battery.

Connie
05-07-2016, 21:17
The "GPS" in a phone usually works off WiFi routers that allow location.

Read carefully to find out if there is an actual GPS chip inside your phone.

I can't believe I didn't mention Orange Gadgets GPS for iPod Touch, iPhone at the time. Now, Emprum UltiMate GPS has been made available for the newer Apple iPod Touch, iPhone, iPad, etc.

It has the most powerful and accurate GPS I have seen: I could watch myself stop at the curb, or, step off the curb.

I never had it fail, but I don't walk in deep ravines or slot canyons. It works in Old Growth forest I have hiked.

The Dual 150A and other GPS in that brand improve on internal GPS devices in phones and tablets, as well, and work with i-apps or Android apps. It has the advantage it is a Bluetooth device that will communicate with up to 5 devices, at the same time. It could be used for teaching others how to use a GPS, without having to purchase their own GPS ahead of a hike.

I like the fact it does not plug-in to my iPod Touch, as an attachment. It works hanging off my pack or in the lid pocket. I have seen it worn on a shoulder strap.

BrianLe
05-08-2016, 14:45
"The "GPS" in a phone usually works off WiFi routers that allow location."

I'd be interested in a source for that. I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that everything I've read has suggested otherwise --- that while a-gps aids in getting the signals via cell towers (if cell radio is on!), an actual GPS chip is pretty much standard in modern/current smartphones.
Perhaps what you're saying is that folks sometimes get location information with location services (i.e., GPS chip active) off, but there too, in my experience the smartphone kind of forces you to turn it on, or at least a lot of apps try to.
So --- if you can point out your source(s) for that, I'd appreciate the education.

What I'm finding interesting in this general area is the rise of location satellite systems in other countries, particularly two more that are rolling out global systems. Besides U.S. based NAVSTAR (GPS), I've appreciated that my phone uses the Russian GLONASS system, but Europe is building out their Galileo system and China is getting a start on phase 3 (global rollout) of their BaiDou system. So by 2020 a receiver --- whether dedicated GPS or smartphone --- will have so many satellites to use for triangulation. GLONASS already helps measurably; perhaps living in a more northern part of the U.S. biases me a bit on that, however. Bottom line, is if I were looking to buy a standalone GPS or when I eventually replace my smartphone I'll definitely consider whether it will have hardware that can detect not just NAVSTAR and GLONASS satellites, but Galileo and BaiDou birds as well.

One can of course do that for GLONASS in smartphone selection now, via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smartphones_supporting_GLONASS_navigation

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smartphones_supporting_GLONASS_navigation)

MikekiM
11-13-2016, 10:40
I-Device user here...

For the past few years I have been using GaiaGPS on my iphone for navigation and logging. The iphone has GPS capability when in AirPlane mode, and GaiaGPS allows you to download maps for the areas you will trek in. So offline access to maps and GPS only usage on the device.

Until recently I was logging my treks for offline use post trek as well, using GaiaGPS, but found it was sucking battery life and though I carry a backup battery there is rarely a time in the middle of the day I want sit and recharge a battery. I also log on my Suunto Ambit.. Why was I logging twice? The Ambit can go two or three days without a charge; I don't need to see my recorded track while I am out, just my current location and the route I want to be on. So, between Suunto, GaiaGPS map and compass I am covered.

Uncle Joe
11-13-2016, 11:48
The "GPS" in a phone usually works off WiFi routers that allow location.


I can put my iPhone in Airplane mode and use Guthook. I think there was a change around iOS 8 that allowed apps to access the GPS chip. I believe WiFi is used to help the accuracy of the GPS but is no longer required.

That said, an actual GPS unit is probably far better technically but frankly, usability is lacking IMO. On The AT Guthook is just far easier and just as useful.

Leo L.
11-13-2016, 12:07
Most smartphones use several informations to get the location, and the user can choose which info it should use.
GPS only takes some time for the first lock (up to several minutes) as the data stream from the satellites is extremely low, and the receiver has to wait for more and more satellites to pass over and get their full info, until it can calculate the position accurately (it needs 3 to even start calculation, but needs 5 to get height info as well - and then its skipping some unfitting satelites, so it will wait for some others to pass over).
It greatly helps if the receiver is power-on the whole time, re-calculating the position minutes later is fast and easy then (but then, the always-on eats more battery). It also helps to download a current "map" or "flighplan" of the satellites, to get faster results. I think smartphones do this by themselves.

Near civilisation the smartphone also can take WIFI locations for a first lock, which works surprisingly well - if there is WIFI, which obviousely isn't out in the backcountry.
Triangulation off cellphone towers would be very inaccurate and I'm not sure if the smartphone itself could perform it. Its more of a crime-TV thing I believe.

Modern smartphones have very decent GPS chips and software, are very accurate and use surprisingly little battery.
With my 2yr old Sony I can track my hike for up to three days, using Backcountry Navigator (other apps might work even better?), given that I'm using all other settings for lowest battery usage.

KDogg
11-13-2016, 16:10
I had zero problems with guthooks gps on both android and iphone. Was always able to get a fix regardless of coverage. Actually never met anybody carrying an actual GPS.

MikekiM
11-13-2016, 23:02
I would expect the GPS in an actively used iPhone is always on.. Gaia plots a position instantly. Haven't had a single issue with locating, positioning and plotting.



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Leo L.
11-14-2016, 03:53
Can't speak for i-devices, but in Android it depends on apps.
GPS is off, unless any app is asking for position. You can decide for every single app to allow it asking for position.
"Any app" includes Chrome, camera and all social media, so if you have a default setup most likely many of your apps constantly ask for position data.

When tracking, I have set Backcountry Navigator to get position data every 5 seconds. The app is asking for the data every 5 seconds, and the device calculates the position without any noticabely delay.
Reason is, re-calculation of the data with the just slightly different input of the few seconds of free movement is very easy and very accurate.
Receiving the signal is very little work for the device, too.

The calculation to be done to get the GPS position is a pretty hard one if all input data is new, its a long winding and iterative process, and it will take a lot of (CPU-) power.
I bleive that in modern devices it takes less battery to keep the GPS quasi-on than to switch it on only randomly.