NC - Winding Stair Gap - Yellow Creek Gap - last minute ask for info

[Scouter101]

I'm a Boy Scout leader from the Chicago Burbs.

I have a crew of 14 going from Winding Stair Gap to Yellow Creek Gap in three weeks (OMGosh .... three weeks!!!!) :banana

Parking cars at both ends.

Any late breaking news on this section? Any bad areas (washouts, downed trees, etc)?

Water has GOT to be good with all this rain. Any confirmations?
I know about the GSMNP bear issues... any other critter incidents further south?
We're all tenting in tents; not using the shelters.
Any parking concerns?

Lastly, after a High Adventure trip, I treat the boys to a victory meal. Stecoah Diner (south east of the dam) seems like a good place.... any insights?

Yours in Scouting,
Rich

[saltysack]

Don't think I'd leave my car a WSG.....a few miles farther but imo safer at standing Indian campground. Left many times at SI backcountry kiosk or in campground with no problems...


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[MuddyWaters]

14 is too large a group for AT for overnight camping.
The limits for groups are are 10 for overnight, 25 for dayhikes.

If you want to know why groups are despised, its because they are generally ignorant of rules, and disturb others. Shelters are specifically not for groups either.



[*=left]Limit group size to no more than 10 for overnight trips, or 25 on day hikes. Four to six is best. Traveling and camping in smaller groups reduces the physical impact to the Trail. Smaller groups also help preserve the sense of solitude and remoteness for other hikers who encounter your group.

[daddytwosticks]

Agree with all posts so far. Consider safer places to park on both ends for that number of days. :)

[Scouter101]

Wow... I'm really surprised by the negativity.

For the record.

We don't use the shelters; just the privy.
We hike single file down the path and ALWAYS yield to any other hikers on the trail coming at or from behind us. It's a wonderful sight to see a column of 12 people step off the trail in unison to let a hiker pass.
We have a small camping footprint of four 8' x 8' tents (4 boys per tent)
While the boys are not silent, they are not disrespectful of others... especially at a shared campsite.
The crew is made up of four Eagle Scouts (including myself) and three boys that will be Eagle Scout by the end of this year.


2013 we did the prior 50 mile stretch starting at Dick's Creek (12 person crew)
We provided about four gallons of water to other hikers from our filters
I provided first aid out of my 50 oz first aid kit to two un-prepared thru-hikers
A downed tree (6" trunk) covered the path to Siler Shelter. We used our pack saw to cut a few branches to make the path cross-able for others.
We also provided meals for people along the trek as we realized extra resources. Hot home-cooked / dehydrated meals... not packets of dry oatmeal...although we shared oatmeal too.
We packed out over 5lb of OTHER peoples trash as a service project.... that's a LOT of granola bar wrappers.

This is my fifth high adventure activity that I have planned. Three backcountry backpacking, one horseback and one canoe trip in the boundary waters.

I'm very proud of my crew. They have trained hard to make the experience a positive one for us and others.
We bring years of camping experience, backpacking experience, backcountry experience, hundreds of hours of CPR/first aid training (including wilderness first-aid) and emergency communications technology to the trail as well.

The trail WILL be better with us on it
The trail WILL be better than we found it when we leave

Sincerely,
Rich

[Traveler]

Why is it negative to remark on parking alternatives or post AT use rules after you asked about information?

Muddy posted the rules of use so you can make the assessment, no one claimed you weren't well behaved or otherwise good stewards. The rules are not always known by everyone, so they were posted and he gave you a fairly accurate reason why large groups are not as well received as small ones so if new to the rules you can better understand the rationale of people who may comment on this board or on the trail directly to you.

Seemed pretty straight forward to me. Knowing these things you can better mitigate any issues by spreading your group out a bit using two smaller groups about a half hour apart and ensure everyone is more sensitive to being quiet in the camping area for example, which by your description you would prefer to do.

[saltysack]

I see both sides and understand reasoning....I camped at gooch several years ago. There was a large group of 20+ scouts that showed up little after us....at first I was irritated.... as lots of people in general detract from the wilderness experience.....probably why I prefer to hike between October-feb on southern AT...in the end they were very respectful, cooked hot donuts which they shared!![emoji16]...also left the site much cleaner than it was prior. I wasn't in scouts as a kid but am very impressed with what it teaches...this generation of young people need to get outdoors...enough with the video games!


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[dr.rock]

+1 the scouts are good they do a great job

[peakbagger]

With respect to group size I don't think they are rules rather they are recommendations for a vast majority of the trail. The ATC does not have enforcement authority and given that there is one NPS law enforcement officer for the entire trail enforcement is highly doubtful.

"The limits for groups are 10 for overnight, 25 for dayhikes" I would like to see the source as some times I would love to be able to cite it to less than well behaved adult as well as youth groups. Unless the Nantahala NF has different rules, up north in the WMNF the only areas specifically limited to group sizes of 10 or less are the designated Wilderness Areas which the AT mostly skips except for the Great Gulf. There can be an indirect limit if the Nantahala NF actively manages the outfitter guide permit program for youth groups. This was in effect in the whites for a few years but currently doesn't seem to be an issue unless money changes hands. If the outfitter guide permit applies, then the specific conditions for the permit can be restrictive with respect to group size and locations to be hiked. The permit for our scout troop was set at 10 or less and we were strongly encouraged to avoid popular trails and areas. They did have the right to limit the permit to specific ranger districts but they elected not to. The local scout council had a high adventure program that did need an outfitter guide permit and they were specifically prohibited from the AT through the whites.

A point that non scouters may not be aware of is that the scouts require 2 adult leaders to be present for youth activities, I haven't been involved with the program for several years but the training I received was pretty specific that if the group was broken into two groups additional adults were needed. The youth protection training at the time was black and white with no room for interpretation but I expect most groups would just split up.

This does bring up that since the scouts are a youth training program, recommendations for proper use of a resource is an important part of training. Since the recommendations are for 10 maximum group size, this should be taught and accommodated in planning. I am surprised that when filling in the major trip form that you don't have to research what group size limitations are present at the proposed venue. To knowingly ignore the recommendations or rationalize that a well behaved group is somehow excluded from the limit of 10 is poor training. To bring up relative impact of one group versus another introduces a slippery slope, yes its great that the large group of scouts and leaders can do positive things while on their trip but using that approach why stop at 12?

[Traveler]

With respect to group size I don't think they are rules rather they are recommendations for a vast majority of the trail. The ATC does not have enforcement authority and given that there is one NPS law enforcement officer for the entire trail enforcement is highly doubtful.

"The limits for groups are 10 for overnight, 25 for dayhikes" I would like to see the source as some times I would love to be able to cite it to less than well behaved adult as well as youth groups.

While I agree in the definitions between guidelines and rules in the strict sense, without enforcement they are essentially the same thing. Absent enforcement the guidelines or rules of play are based on a social contract. If everyone pretty much observes the guidelines or rules, there are rarely any issues. Breaking the social contract can bring a different experience.

The ATC website publishes the following in the "Families and Groups" menu under Hiking Basics that is probably the best source to use. National Parks that are specific to the park itself. Other special lands have their own regulations that should be observed, usually for the health and safety of the public and wildlife:

GROUPS ON THE A.T.Groups are welcome on the Trail, but bear in mind that the Trail is narrow and campsites are small. Please follow these guidelines as you plan your outings.http://www.appalachiantrail.org/images/default-album/group.png?sfvrsn=1 (http://www.nps.gov/shen/index.htm)


[*=left]Take particular care to follow Leave No Trace Practices (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hiking/hiking-basics/leave-no-trace-practices). This is vital because groups have a more concentrated impact on paths, campsites, and facilities. Click here (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-document-library/atlntforgroups8-14-2012.pdf?sfvrsn=2) for specific Leave No Trace guidelines for groups on the A.T.
[*=left]When staying at Trail shelters where tenting is permitted, pitch tents nearby, leaving the shelter for solo hikers.
[*=left]Limit group size to no more than 10 for overnight trips, or 25 on day hikes. Four to six is best. Traveling and camping in smaller groups reduces the physical impact to the Trail. Smaller groups also help preserve the sense of solitude and remoteness for other hikers who encounter your group.
[*=left]In New England, voluntary group registration systems help reduce crowding and allow groups to reduce their chances of arriving at a campsite area that is already full.

[*=left]In Vermont -- contact the Green Mountain Club (http://www.greenmountainclub.org/page.php?id=141) for the Long Trail (southernmost 100 miles of the A.T.)
[*=left]In New Hampshire and southern Maine -- contact the Appalachian Mountain Club (http://www.outdoors.org/lodging/campsites/group-hiking.cfm)
[*=left]In Maine north of Grafton Notch -- contact the Maine Appalachian Trail Club (http://www.matc.org/for-hikers/group-registration/) for Maine for areas north of Grafton Notch.


[*=left]The Mount Rogers High Country of Virginia, which includes the Grayson Highlands, requires special consideration from groups. Check out the Mount Rogers VA High Country Trip Planning Guide for Groups (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-source/default-document-library/mount-rogers-va-high-country-trip-planning-guide-for-groups.pdf?sfvrsn=0) to help you plan a group hike.
[*=left]Take care to keep members together; most search-and-rescue missions along the A.T. happen when someone gets separated from a group.

[MuddyWaters]

Group limits are specified in the compendium of orders for the AT, attachment B.

. It is a national park, that is where you will find regulations. They are established by the maintaining clubs in this cade,, and they are all the same.

Just because no one is around to enforce it, doesnt make it a reccomendation.

Ignoring it because it doesnt suit you, reflects badly on you, and your group, and sets a quite bad example.

;This is the overriding problem with the at today, without enforcement, some people just tend to do whatever they want, believing there are no rules.. It says tons about their character.

[Traveler]

So... I should probably rethink my plan to bring 37 11 year olds from the Junior Bagpipers Ensemble, with their dogs, on a weekend trip on the AT to rehearse for their visit with the Queens Black Watch.

[wannahike]

Water has GOT to be good with all this rain. Any confirmations?
I know about the GSMNP bear issues... any other critter incidents further south?
We're all tenting in tents; not using the shelters.

You're hiking through GSMNP, right? The park has it's own rules and limits group size to 8, you need a permit for each night in the park and if you are on the AT you are required to sleep in the shelters, tenting is not allowed.
See http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm

If I've got the gaps wrong sorry just ignore. It's way early.

[Crabapple]

Can anyone please answer this man's questions about trail conditions, water, blowdowns, etc....?

It's great to hear your opinions about group numbers, recommendations, and scouting, but at the end of the day, he has a hike to plan and wants to be prepared. Also, I want to know the same information! :)