BSP - Leave No Trace Concept seems to be missing some folks

[peakbagger]

http://bangordailynews.com/2015/07/08/outdoors/baxter-state-park-tackles-poop-problem-with-success/

Its not unusual when hiking the trails up Katahdin to find where folks just "stopped and dropped" right in the middle of the trail. I generally ascribe that to the day hikers who swarm the mountain every year.

[ChrisJackson]

Good article! Happy they've taken the poop issue "by the horns".

[LoneStranger]

This really seems to be primarily an issue in the day hike areas. I've seen folks do their business by a log ten feet from the cage latrine at Frost Pond, but other than that most of the real back country areas are free of human waste. Moose and bear waste on the other hand... :)

[1234]

Lets see, we build a $200,000 parking lot with a $10,000 Kiosk and park 20 cars and build a short cut to a nice waterfall. Hmmmm forgot to include bathroom facilities. Just where do you expect folks to go? I carried a trowel and found it useless, it never cut through the roots or rocks, seems a few good heel stomps and I had a nice 6" deep hole to bury the mess. Oh but above treeline there are few roots just rocks, cannot dig in rocks, so find one you can lift and cover the mess, opps seems every rock is already covering someone Else mess.

People do not go off trail on account of fear of ticks, chiggers, bugs in general. I remember running to hide behind a bolder and walking back through a lot of 1 foot plants, looks at my legs and pulled off 16 ticks. That makes me want to do it again run a few hundred feet off trail. Ya know you do not have tons of time to do a field study of choice locations, you mainly look to be hidden so that nobody gets scared out of their mind at the sight of a moon in the forest. There is only one answer, build proper facilities and LETS FOLKS KNOW WHERE THEY ARE.

[Water Rat]

Actually, there are other options. Go before you head above treeline, use the provided facilities before you hike, or packed it in... You can pack it out.

It is disturbing and unnecessary to see someone's crap on the trail. This doesn't even begin to cover the health hazards it could pose... And, if you aren't sure where the facilities might be in a park - Just ask a ranger. They would be more than happy to tell you where facilities are located and what to do with your poo.

[Water Rat]

Meant to say "YOU packed it in... You can pack it out."

[rocketsocks]

Bag it out above tree line, or smear it on a south facing rock, o'coarse park restrictions apply depending where ya are. Know the rules where you hike, and as they say...when in Rome!

[LoneStranger]

Alpine rule has been the same for many years in BSP; 200' off trail via rock hop and leave waste exposed on a rock taking TP with you. No cat holes or rock moving as that would disturb the fragile ecosystem. The only thing different is that they are talking to more people because no one reads the handouts everyone gets at the gate.

[Coffee]

Alpine rule has been the same for many years in BSP; 200' off trail via rock hop and leave waste exposed on a rock taking TP with you. No cat holes or rock moving as that would disturb the fragile ecosystem. The only thing different is that they are talking to more people because no one reads the handouts everyone gets at the gate.

Wow, I've never heard it recommended to leave waste exposed to the elements like that ... Seems unsustainable for large numbers. Best to take care of business below treeline. Or mandate WAG bags above treeline.

[Odd Man Out]

Wow, I've never heard it recommended to leave waste exposed to the elements like that ... Seems unsustainable for large numbers. Best to take care of business below treeline. Or mandate WAG bags above treeline.

I have heard this before for rocky terrain. With no soil, rock-covered poop lasts a long time. But exposed to the sun and elements, it decays more quickly. But agreed that with large number of people, that may not be quick enough.

[Traveler]

I have heard this before for rocky terrain. With no soil, rock-covered poop lasts a long time. But exposed to the sun and elements, it decays more quickly. But agreed that with large number of people, that may not be quick enough.

Agreed, you see this technique used in the Sierras when the soil gets too difficult to work. But I think the WAG bags be required gear (or issued with park access) is the best idea.

[LoneStranger]

Pack out would make sense, but if you handed out bags at the THs you'd have bags of poop all over the mountain at the end of the day. There are a lot of folks climbing that mountain with very little back country experience and no clue what LNT might be all about. I'm glad they are getting out there, but I wish they'd worry less about getting a bug bite and a bit more about taking care of the sacred mountain.

[lemon b]

Some good points. Build facilities where necessary. WAG bags work for people willing to use them and they sure do not get disposed of in a septic system. I've always gone as far from the trail as possible and put it as deep as possible. When above treeline I use the go first and then try and hold it method. But do carry a sack.

[Water Rat]

Well that didn't work out so well... That was a picture of the sign to the last outhouse on the trail. Attached to the sign is a notice about how to deal with your poo beyond that point, should you opt to not partake of the outhouse.

[rocketsocks]

Well that didn't work out so well... That was a picture of the sign to the last outhouse on the trail. Attached to the sign is a notice about how to deal with your poo beyond that point, should you opt to not partake of the outhouse.
GB decease, LOL

[Traveler]

Its not so bad, if you rotate the screen about 10 degrees left, hold your tongue like this.... and squint juuust right, you can see the sign. The outhouse gets lost in the background though.

[Water Rat]

GB decease, LOL

Exactly! *slamming head on desk*

[Water Rat]

Its not so bad, if you rotate the screen about 10 degrees left, hold your tongue like this.... and squint juuust right, you can see the sign. The outhouse gets lost in the background though.

Oh, so you are saying you didn't need me to describe it? ;)

[BirdBrain]

GB decease, LOL

I will laugh with you RS. Private jokes are sometimes the best. And to stay on subject, don't build more buildings, rip up a few roads. Make it harder to get there.

[rocketsocks]

Well there's your problem...I think you left a trace.

[MuddyWaters]

need to give out wag bags, just like whitney zone.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I think you left a trace.

That's what I said to my buddy when he crapped his pants in the middle of the trail in Jersey.

[Another Kevin]

GB decease, LOL

Decease? He's not dead yet!

[rocketsocks]

Decease? He's not dead yet!
Oh Gosh No, he's on TOS postin' up a storm.

[rocketsocks]

That's what I said to my buddy when he crapped his pants in the middle of the trail in Jersey.
oh I hate when that heappens!

[Water Rat]

I think you left a trace.

Oh, the irony...

[imscotty]

GB decease, LOL

OK, I'm stumped on that one. Birdbrain is smarter than me.

[Sarcasm the elf]

OK, I'm stumped on that one. Birdbrain is smarter than me.

GrayBlazer Disease. It's a reference to a fellow member who was notorious for accidentally including huge chunks of html code in his posts to this site.

[imscotty]

Glad to hear that BSP is having a successful education campaign on this matter. Now, I'll be the first to admit that my cat holes may not always meet everyones standards, but I have to say something about those Neanderthals who leave their crap smack in the middle of the trail. This is not an education problem, or a facilities problem, these people are just inconsiderate animals. I cannot even begin to fathom the thought process of this behavior.

[imscotty]

GrayBlazer Disease. It's a reference to a fellow member who was notorious for accidentally including huge chunks of html code in his posts to this site.

Got it. Have not heard from him in a while :(

[BirdBrain]

OK, I'm stumped on that one. Birdbrain is smarter than me.

Do not confuse the lack of knowledge with the lack of ability to gain knowledge. In this case, I was less ignorant, not smarter. I am not taking any wagers on any other instance either. :D

[Singto]

Lets see, we build a $200,000 parking lot with a $10,000 Kiosk and park 20 cars and build a short cut to a nice waterfall. Hmmmm forgot to include bathroom facilities. Just where do you expect folks to go? I carried a trowel and found it useless, it never cut through the roots or rocks, seems a few good heel stomps and I had a nice 6" deep hole to bury the mess. Oh but above treeline there are few roots just rocks, cannot dig in rocks, so find one you can lift and cover the mess, opps seems every rock is already covering someone Else mess.

People do not go off trail on account of fear of ticks, chiggers, bugs in general. I remember running to hide behind a bolder and walking back through a lot of 1 foot plants, looks at my legs and pulled off 16 ticks. That makes me want to do it again run a few hundred feet off trail. Ya know you do not have tons of time to do a field study of choice locations, you mainly look to be hidden so that nobody gets scared out of their mind at the sight of a moon in the forest. There is only one answer, build proper facilities and LETS FOLKS KNOW WHERE THEY ARE.


People who spend other peoples' money aren't too interested in doing the prudent thing or getting the most out of every dollar.

[Singto]

Glad to hear that BSP is having a successful education campaign on this matter. Now, I'll be the first to admit that my cat holes may not always meet everyones standards, but I have to say something about those Neanderthals who leave their crap smack in the middle of the trail. This is not an education problem, or a facilities problem, these people are just inconsiderate animals. I cannot even begin to fathom the thought process of this behavior.

Thought process? Not hardly.

[LoneStranger]

People who spend other peoples' money aren't too interested in doing the prudent thing or getting the most out of every dollar.

BSP is not a government facility. The money the Park Authority spends is its own. They build as little as possible, as Percival Baxter instructed when he set the park up and believe me, they make every dollar they spend stretch as far as possible. What they won't do is put the needs of people before the imperative of keeping the park as wild as possible. When they can't support more people they will likely limit the number of people rather than build more services.

[Water Rat]

BSP is not a government facility. The money the Park Authority spends is its own. They build as little as possible, as Percival Baxter instructed when he set the park up and believe me, they make every dollar they spend stretch as far as possible. What they won't do is put the needs of people before the imperative of keeping the park as wild as possible. When they can't support more people they will likely limit the number of people rather than build more services

+1

For those of you who have yet to visit Baxter - It's a gorgeous place and I highly recommend it!

I realize most of this crowd knows what to do with their litter and their poop. I just find it to be rather sad that there are so many people out there who feel that they can do whatever they want, just because they want to do it.

Sadly, the poop issue is not just above treeline and it doesn't just involve day hikers. I like to hit Baxter at least once a season. I usually stay at KSC. On my last trip, I had a campsite that was next to a huge, awesome boulder - the kind that just invites you to climb on it. Well, just behind that boulder, the previous campers had decided would make for a lovely toilet. I have no idea what they ate in the 3 days they were there (yes, the ranger was able to obtain that information and they do keep tabs), but there were piles everywhere and lots of tp to go with it. The ranger kept apologizing (he shouldn't have had to do that - he didn't leave the piles) and immediately cleaned that mess up.

What makes this even more sad is that this campsite was not located too far from a very clean outhouse. The people who made this mess chose to do so. It has nothing to do with not enough facilities and everything to do with people feeling entitled to do whatever they want, wherever they want. I am glad they are being more vocal about the poop issue. It is sad more people can't take responsibility for their actions so that this is not an issue. Adults shouldn't need a ranger to tell them to manage their poop.

[Pedaling Fool]

Pack out would make sense, but if you handed out bags at the THs you'd have bags of poop all over the mountain at the end of the day. There are a lot of folks climbing that mountain with very little back country experience and no clue what LNT might be all about. I'm glad they are getting out there, but I wish they'd worry less about getting a bug bite and a bit more about taking care of the sacred mountain.
That's probably true (the underlined section). And in that case, I don't think LNT training matters one bit. If people, regardless how little experience they have, even zero experience, leaves a plastic bag lying around, they just don't care. No amount of LNT training is going to change that.

I can only relate to my personal frame of mind and in that frame leaving behind plastic trash is just something you don't do. Has nothing to do with my experience in the woods. You don't do it in town and you definitely don't do it in the woods.

Yet, people do this everywhere...I just don't understand that mindset...It boggles the mind.

[ChrisJackson]

...It boggles the mind. I know! It REALLY grinds my gears...the attitude of people like this..."Well, let somebody else [clean up my s**t/pack out my trash]". Who do they think they are?

...taking a deep breath...........

[perdidochas]

Glad to hear that BSP is having a successful education campaign on this matter. Now, I'll be the first to admit that my cat holes may not always meet everyones standards, but I have to say something about those Neanderthals who leave their crap smack in the middle of the trail. This is not an education problem, or a facilities problem, these people are just inconsiderate animals. I cannot even begin to fathom the thought process of this behavior.

I think it's almost a mental health issue.

[perdidochas]

+1

For those of you who have yet to visit Baxter - It's a gorgeous place and I highly recommend it!

I realize most of this crowd knows what to do with their litter and their poop. I just find it to be rather sad that there are so many people out there who feel that they can do whatever they want, just because they want to do it.

Sadly, the poop issue is not just above treeline and it doesn't just involve day hikers. I like to hit Baxter at least once a season. I usually stay at KSC. On my last trip, I had a campsite that was next to a huge, awesome boulder - the kind that just invites you to climb on it. Well, just behind that boulder, the previous campers had decided would make for a lovely toilet. I have no idea what they ate in the 3 days they were there (yes, the ranger was able to obtain that information and they do keep tabs), but there were piles everywhere and lots of tp to go with it. The ranger kept apologizing (he shouldn't have had to do that - he didn't leave the piles) and immediately cleaned that mess up.

What makes this even more sad is that this campsite was not located too far from a very clean outhouse. The people who made this mess chose to do so. It has nothing to do with not enough facilities and everything to do with people feeling entitled to do whatever they want, wherever they want. I am glad they are being more vocal about the poop issue. It is sad more people can't take responsibility for their actions so that this is not an issue. Adults shouldn't need a ranger to tell them to manage their poop.

It's wierd to me that people would choose a cathole over an outhouse, but in my Scout troop, one of the older boys told one of the younger boys to dig a cathole rather than use the outhouse. Unfortunately, I didn't hear about it until the younger boy was coming back. the older boy had some lame explanation that pooping in outhouses is what makes them stink so bad. My response was that was a normal thing, and it's better to use the outhouse than to dig a cathole.

[perdidochas]

That's probably true (the underlined section). And in that case, I don't think LNT training matters one bit. If people, regardless how little experience they have, even zero experience, leaves a plastic bag lying around, they just don't care. No amount of LNT training is going to change that.

I can only relate to my personal frame of mind and in that frame leaving behind plastic trash is just something you don't do. Has nothing to do with my experience in the woods. You don't do it in town and you definitely don't do it in the woods.

Yet, people do this everywhere...I just don't understand that mindset...It boggles the mind.

Same here. I'm always perplexed at how much trash is on the side of the road, etc.

[Old Hiker]

Decease? He's not dead yet!

He's not dead - he's just pining for the fjords.