Toe problems in mud

[Another Kevin]

Here's a query for the Real Hikers out there.

I've thought for a while that I had my foot care dialed in pretty well. I virtually never get a blister, and when I'm hiking, my knees always give out before my feet do.

In summer, I wear lightweight trail runners (New Balance 610 is my current favorite for fit and light weight), green Superfeet insoles, and Darn Tough midweight hiker socks. In winter, I add a vapor barrier inside (thin nylon or polyester dress socks, and then a double layer of bread or newspaper bags), and switch to either Timberland boots or Sorel pac boots depending on the temperature and snow conditions.

In either season, I add over-the-calf gaiters if I'm having problems with keeping my socks clear of brush, snow or debris.

This system works very well for me - mostly.

But last week I was on a section hike on the Northville-Placid, on the wettest trail that I've ever encountered. I couldn't go five minutes without sinking in mud over the tops of my shoes. "Embrace the slop!" is a necessary LNT motto of the Adirondack hiker. Proper trail etiquette demands just walking through the mud, rather than widening the mud hole by going around it.

I found out that all the silt and grit makes it up under gaiters and through trail runners, and accumulates in the toes of my socks, and my toes, particularly the pinky toes on the sole side, were like hamburger by the end of the hike. And this was with washing feet and socks at least 2-3x daily. Not just rinsing, actually sitting down with soap and a bucket and giving the socks a good pounding and wringing and the feet a good scrubbing. It did very little good, since minutes later, the socks would just be full of grit again.

Now, I recognize that this trail is legendary for its wetness - Vermud has nothng on it! - but I imagine that others have ideas for dealing with the extreme situation. What ought I to be doing beyond what I already am? Just sucking it up and sweating in waterproof boots seems to be inviting other foot problems.

[Ktaadn]

I once met a thru-hiker in northern VA that was wearing Teva's and had been wearing them since Springer. He said that he hadn't had a single blister and the mud squishing between his toes felt great. He said it was like having his feet constantly pumiced. You could try that. I would be too worried about jamming my toes into a rock though.

[Walkintom]

With that much silt working its way in, it seems like you have to either take one of two approaches: keep it out or embrace it. I doubt that doing things like adding an impermeable layer (bread bag) inside the footwear would do any good.

So go with a higher boot that will keep it out or just go ahead and let it on in and deal with the aftermath with lots of washing and probably changing out footwear and letting your feet dry in between as much as conditions permit.

[Snowleopard]

Perhaps wear goretex socks over your socks? That would keep the dirt/mud from getting into your socks.
NEOS overshoes would work but is likely overkill for 3 season hiking.

[Dogwood]

Sounds like you have some maceration issues compounded by friction caused by wet gritty silted up dirty socks and footwear.

IMO, Andrew has the right idea: http://andrewskurka.com/2012/minimizing-the-effects-and-aftermath-of-wet-feet/

Carefully read about what he does to avoid the potential hamburger effect of wet feet. I deal with the same thing just as Andrew does but I use Bert's Bees Res-Q-Ointment or Bert's Bees Miracle Salve to do the same thing. The bees wax holds in your natural skin moisture and also acts as an anti friction salve all in one.

http://www.burtsbees.com/Res-Q-Ointment/77599-00,default,pd.html

http://www.burtsbees.com/Miracle-Salve/165-999,default,pd.html

I hear ya about the ooze on a few sections of the NLPT. That's one reason why I chose to thru-hike it in late Oct.

[Dogwood]

IMO too I agree with you AK WP shoes or boots are NOT the way to go on a summer NLPT hike. The ooze is almost knee deep in some areas requiring a ridiculously knee high WP boot to be worn(SWEATED IN!) during summer. No #@$^% way!

[Zach ADK]

I'm not sure if I qualify as a Real Hiker, but anyway..... I try to avoid muddy areas in the Adirondacks but when I do hit them I go around if they look at all deep. I used to go through as per directions on the DEC website, since I would go in August and wear Tevas, but once when I was visiting Cascade Lake (the one outside Eagle Bay, not the better-known one) I was on the trail around the lake and entered a meadow where the trail got muddy. I walked blithely ahead, stepped carefully off a piece of wood into the mud and suddenly sank well past my knees. I had a struggle getting out with my backpack on and almost lost one of my sandals. This has made me question the doctrine of always wearing gaiters and going through. My knees are about 2' from the ground so if I had been a more conventionally sized person I might have been closer to waist deep.
Zach

[Another Kevin]

Sounds like you have some maceration issues compounded by friction caused by wet gritty silted up dirty socks and footwear.

IMO, Andrew has the right idea: http://andrewskurka.com/2012/minimizing-the-effects-and-aftermath-of-wet-feet/

Carefully read about what he does to avoid the potential hamburger effect of wet feet. I deal with the same thing just as Andrew does but I use Bert's Bees Res-Q-Ointment or Bert's Bees Miracle Salve to do the same thing. The bees wax holds in your natural skin moisture and also acts as an anti friction salve all in one.

http://www.burtsbees.com/Res-Q-Ointment/77599-00,default,pd.html

http://www.burtsbees.com/Miracle-Salve/165-999,default,pd.html

I hear ya about the ooze on a few sections of the NLPT. That's one reason why I chose to thru-hike it in late Oct.

Right you are. Exactly. Maceration from constant wetness, and then the grit to abrade everything, and no way to keep the socks from getting silted up.

It's nice to see that he agrees with me on light wool socks, well-ventilated light shoes, nonabsorbent insoles. About the only thing he's doing that I'm not is the pretreatment with the beeswax compound far in advance of getting wet. I'll try that next time.

I was amused that multiple posters in the discussion thread mentioned West Canada Lakes specifically! (As I said, the wetness there is the stuff of legend.) And you had a good plan, thru-hiking in October. That's when I tried to thru-hike it myself, but I wound up needing to get off trail for a few days to get over a case of bronchitis and would up leapfrogging from Long Lake to Piseco. Even then, I got several straight days of rain and wound up having to contend with high water at Wanika Falls and Ouluska Pass Brook. Now I'm making up what I missed. I still have 28N to Wakely to finish up.

[Another Kevin]

I'm not sure if I qualify as a Real Hiker, but anyway..... I try to avoid muddy areas in the Adirondacks but when I do hit them I go around if they look at all deep. I used to go through as per directions on the DEC website, since I would go in August and wear Tevas, but once when I was visiting Cascade Lake (the one outside Eagle Bay, not the better-known one) I was on the trail around the lake and entered a meadow where the trail got muddy. I walked blithely ahead, stepped carefully off a piece of wood into the mud and suddenly sank well past my knees. I had a struggle getting out with my backpack on and almost lost one of my sandals. This has made me question the doctrine of always wearing gaiters and going through. My knees are about 2' from the ground so if I had been a more conventionally sized person I might have been closer to waist deep.
Zach

I do resort to probing with a trekking pole, because you're right that sometimes the stuff is just bottomless. I'm also tallish, and I've at least once had a rotten puncheon collapse under me and drop me thigh-deep into the beaver swamp. (This was in the perennial mess a little bit north of Plumley's Landing.) There's LNT (go through the mud), and then there's personal safety. There is actual quicksand in spots in the ADK's, and nobody's asking you to go wading in it. Verplanck Colvin himself nearly drowned in the stuff.

[BirdBrain]

I will be watching this thread with interest. My footwear is the same as Kevin's. I have never had a foot issue other than losing toenails. Losing toenails sounds like an issue. It has been no big deal for me. The mud of Vermont a couple weeks ago stopped me in my tracks. A 45 mile walk from Norwich to the Maine JCT tore my feet up. I have a black toenail that is coming off. No big deal. A big deal is the hot spots all over my feet and mud wedged under my toenails. I cleaned those issues up and tried the Whites instead a few days ago. I hiked over the Hancock's Saturday and did he mini- Pemi loop on Sunday (21.8 mile loop that includes Owl's Head). I walked through every stream and muddy spot on purpose. Zero issues. Instead of doing the Long Trail as planned, I will be hiking in the Whites. Maine is muddy. I trudge right through mud and water all the time. That stuff west of Norwich is special.

Long story... I will be taking notes.

[12trysomething]

Regardless of conditions I remove my shoes and socks at each break and clean my feet. A week leading up to a hike I rub Joshua Tree climbing salve on my feet at night and wear socks. Each night on the trail, prior to crawling into my hammock, I apply JT and my sleep socks. When the conditions are muddy (as expressed above) I reapply JT throughout the day after my on the trail cleaning. Prior to putting my muddy socks back on I clean them in a ziplock bag with water only.

[BirdBrain]

Regardless of conditions I remove my shoes and socks at each break and clean my feet. A week leading up to a hike I rub Joshua Tree climbing salve on my feet at night and wear socks. Each night on the trail, prior to crawling into my hammock, I apply JT and my sleep socks. When the conditions are muddy (as expressed above) I reapply JT throughout the day after my on the trail cleaning. Prior to putting my muddy socks back on I clean them in a ziplock bag with water only.

That might work for me. I have been borderline snobbish in bragging about my foot routine. Vermud humbled me. I would always tell people to do like me and you won't have issues. I advocate trail runners, quality insoles, darn tough socks, and liquid body glide. I have always embraced the slop and don't stop. I need to add periodic maintenance as you describe when I am in Vermud.

[Another Kevin]

Two of you now have mentioned sleep socks A couple of nights I was out there were kind of muggy, and I was sleeping nekkid or nearly so, on top of my pad and bag. Do I need to wear my sleeping socks, or at least liners, so as not to rub off the beeswax stuff, or are you just telling me not to sleep in my just-washed wet socks? (I already know that wet clothes are banned from the sleeping gear.)

[BirdBrain]

I have dedicated sleep socks. I clean and dry my feet as best I can before climbing into bed. During the night, my feet are warm and recover a bit from the days stress. As an added benefit, my sleeping bag stinks less. In the morning, I cover the problem spots with body glide just before sliding my walking socks on. Wet it dry after that does not seem to matter. That stuff is resilient.

[12trysomething]

I always have a dedicated pair of sleep socks. Different weights based on the season / conditions.

[12trysomething]

Here is the JT. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/15/b1e0ad02d929faea875c219c4af71b1f.jpg

[Another Kevin]

I think I wasn't clear about the question. I have dedicated sleep socks, too. Are you telling me not to sleep barefoot in muggy weather? (Assume that I've washed my stinky feet with Dr Bronners in a bucket.)

[BirdBrain]

Here is the JT. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/15/b1e0ad02d929faea875c219c4af71b1f.jpg

Thank you. I love the body glide I use, but I am going to try your suggestion.

[Traveler]

For what its worth, I have been seeing a different sock used around here in wet conditions, similar to what you describe, "Hydroskin" socks by NRS. I have not used these, however after a very similar run of problems in trail runners, I will probably try these later on this season. REI has them on their website. Some of the review comments maintain they keep your feet warm and don't let the silt near the skin to act as an abrasive.

I've no clue if they work as advertised and have only seen a few people wearing them, but I have used NRS stuff before, adapting paddle gloves for trail/pole gloves for example with great success. These may require a larger shoe, but may not depending how much larger you get your shoes. It may be worth a shot for $30, since you can return them easily.

[12trysomething]

I think I wasn't clear about the question. I have dedicated sleep socks, too. Are you telling me not to sleep barefoot in muggy weather? (Assume that I've washed my stinky feet with Dr Bronners in a bucket.)

I do ....always.

[Another Kevin]

I do ....always.

I'm feeling stupid. You do ... sleep barefoot in muggy weather? Or you do wear socks always? :confused:

[BirdBrain]

I do ....always.

Help a thick guy out. Do what? Sleep without socks? Sleep with socks? Wash your feet with Bronner's. I am pretty sure I know what you meant. However, assumptions are poor building material.

[12trysomething]

Sleep with socks. :)

[BirdBrain]

Hehehehe... great minds and all that.

[Another Kevin]

Hehehehe... great minds and all that.

Great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ?

[BirdBrain]

Great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ?

Hey now! :banana:

[rdljr]

you might want to try Seal Skin socks for the wet muddy conditions, I have a friend who swears by them as keeping everything out. I have not been able to find a pair that do not turn my feet blue from cutting of the circulation but if you find ones that fit you, all reports are they work great to keep everything out.

[Dogwood]

Andrew has it all right there written well in that piece so no need for me to rewrite it all. He knows how to deal effectively with wet feet from extensive experience so I'd at least read and consider all that he says in this article!
Why wet feet can be badAttempts to keep my feet dry all proved futile. So I shifted my focus on reducing the effects and aftermath of having wet feet, which might prove more effective. Wet feet can result in:



Maceration, or pruning, which results from the outer layer of skin absorbing moisture. The skin becomes sore, itchy, and soft, which makes it prone to blistering.
Cracking of the skin as it dries out after being macerated, because the skin has been robbed of its natural oils by the moisture. These cracks can be very painful and difficult to treat, depending on the size and location on the foot.

How I treat wet feetI do five things to reduce the effects and aftermath of wet feet:



Wear non-waterproof shoes, which drain and dry out quickly;
Wear thin, non-cushioned merino wool socks, which don’t absorb as much water as thicker socks;
Take off my shoes and socks to let my feet air dry during any mid-day rest stop that will be longer than 20 minutes;
Wear dry and warm socks at night, to give my feet 8-9 hours of recovery time; and,
Apply Bonnie’s Balm Climber’s Salve (http://andrewskurka.com/product/bonnies-balms-climbers-salve-2-oz/), or a similar topical treatment, to the bottoms of my feet.

Why Climber’s Salve helpsClimbers Salve will reduce—but not entirely eliminate—the effects and aftermath of wet feet, specifically by:



Minimizing the amount of moisture that the outer layer of skin will absorb, thereby reducing the severity of the maceration/pruning. The Salve does not seem to clog pores, however, which would cause other problems.
Keeping the skin moisturized, thereby minimizing the likelihood that the skin will crack as it dries out.

How to apply Climbers Salve for best resultsApply Climbers Salve before your feet get wet, ideally hours before. If you apply it after your feet are wet, or immediately before they get wet, the effectiveness is very limited. Normally, applying Climbers Salve is one of my nighttime housekeeping chores, along with looking at tomorrow’s maps and separating out tomorrow’s daytime food.



After drying my feet thoroughly, perhaps with the help of a warm fire, I coat the bottom of my feet with Climbers Salve and rub it in, paying special attention to the rim of my heel and my forefoot, which seem to suffer the worst when wet.
Once the Climbers Salve has been rubbed in, I put on a dry and clean sock, and go to bed. I don’t spend much time in camp—if you do, then protect your dry and now-treated feet from your (potentially) wet shoes using a bread bag or other waterproof liner.
In the morning, and sometimes even in the middle of the night, I check my feet to determine if they need another coating of Climbers Salve. If my feet still feel waxy, then they don’t. If they are dry again, which indicates that all of the Climbers Salve was absorbed, then I reapply

[garlic08]

Great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ?

I heard it, "Great minds think alike...and so do ours."

The only foot problems I had on the AT were from mud. As I age, my skin becomes more liable to crack (thanks, Dad) and mud is far worse than plain water. My best remedy is beeswax. If you care to, it's easy to make your own salve with equal parts beeswax and olive oil. Carefully melt the wax in the microwave (or double boiler if you're that old-fashioned), add the oil, and pour into a mold like an ice cube tray. If you have problems with skin cracking in winter, this is a good solution.

[CELTIC BUCK]

All good information; Thanks. I sometimes hike in LLBeans boots always keep me dry with mid wool socks. Some times the ole boot stinks like cat.

[Dogwood]

Always take heart though you're not dealing with the mud sink holes like found in Florida. http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/28064-man-vs-wild-escaping-muddy-sink-hole-video.htm I've fallen into a couple while wade fishing in mangrove swamps. It's freaky, easy to get paranoid and sink deeper getting yourself even more stuck or drowning in mud.

I've wondered how deep those bogs are on the AT in Maine that are bridged by floating pontoon walkways. I've hiked the AT in ME with a 4 1/2 ft hiking staff attempting to check the depth of some of these bigs. With me sticking my arm into the muck while on my belly to extend the reach I still couldn't touch bottom in several of them. With a pack on, wearing boots, colder weather, soloing, and somewhat fatigued I could envision danger if one fell in and couldn't remove themselves promptly.

[BirdBrain]

I have stepped off a plank twice in a bog in Maine. Both times I only touched the planks with my body and face. My foot dangled above thick muddy air. It would freak people out if they removed the muck under the planks to show just what you are walking on. It is a tight rope walk in some places.