PDA

View Full Version : looking into a new pack



Namtrag
07-20-2015, 17:33
After a week of backpacking in my Osprey Talon 44, I am beginning to think maybe it's the wrong size torso for me. I measure right at 19", and the sizes available are S/M, which goes up to 19", and M/L which is 19" and up. I have the M/L. Try as I may, I cannot keep it up on my hips, and am thinking it is too long. Another thing that bothered me is the thin hip belt and straps, which dig into my back and side bacon pretty badly if I tighten them enough.

In any case, I am considering getting a new pack, and am looking at the GG Mariposa or the ULA Circuit. I do mostly 3 day, 2 night trips, and carry total weight, including food and a 1 liter water bottle, of anywhere from 25-28lbs. For our once a year 6 day, 5 night trips, I slip up into the 32 lbs vicinity.

I like the Talon in that I can strap our Stratospire 2 Tarptent to the bottom, but it looks like the GG or ULA do not have this option, but instead, may have a large pocket on one side in which to slide the tent? Is this true, and if so, do you just counterbalance the weight on one side by carrying water in the opposite pocket? Also the hip belts appear like they would work better than the Talon ones, especially for a slightly chubby guy like me.

Thanks for any advice you guys can give on the pros and cons of the Mariposa or the Circuit. If there is another pack, like a SMD Fusion 50 that might work, let me know!

Odd Man Out
07-20-2015, 20:35
Here is a blog post I read with a detailed analysis of the authors pack selection process and results. I have the same pack he settled on. The Kalais by Elemental Horizons. If you Google this pack you will find a number of other very good reviews.

https://40yearsofwalking.wordpress.com/2014/03/04/the-search-for-the-perfect-pack/

Venchka
07-20-2015, 20:39
I've read that article several times. It opened my eyes.

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

gbolt
07-20-2015, 21:02
Your carry weight falls into the ULA upper Ohm range. Ohm and Circuit have close to the same capacity. The Circuit is more of an internal frame structure and carries more like Ospry and standard packs. The Ohm does have a little internal support and load lifters but is inbetween Ultra Light no frame and Light Internal Frame pack. I purchase and love the Ohm 2.0 and at do a great deal of 3/2 Hikes. The ULA's have great hip belts w/pockets. They adjust easily to get a snug fit on the hips. They are velcro and slightly adjustable. They are also interchangeable for small, med and large hips/waist. They also use the same belts whether it's an OHm or Circuit.

I have a box opening vid, on YouTube, of the Ohm if interested. Yet, I would suggest Shug's vids again. This spring he created one with his buddy that carries a circuit. So you can see both side by side.

I never investigated the Elemental Horizon packs but have purchased some fleece items made by them. Great quality as well.

Like purchasing a car. If the owner is happy than it was a great purchase! lol

Odd Man Out
07-20-2015, 23:01
I have not used a ULA pack but others have said my Kalais is quite comparable to the Circuit. Minimal frame, interchangeable velcro belt with multiple adjustments (belt pouches available for extra $), similar volume and carrying capacity.

Venchka
07-20-2015, 23:14
If they are that close, what sets the Kalais apart from the Circuit?

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

Namtrag
07-21-2015, 06:28
Thanks, guys. That blog entry was very informational, and the Kalais is definitely a contender.

a couple of things I have read, including gbolt's post, make me think I might be able to go smaller than the Circuit/Mariposa size. I use a Talon 44 now, and typically, I put my quilt, stove, and sleeping pad at the very bottom, then my clothes and everything bag, and on top, I put the food bag. I then strap our tent to the bottom. In the front mesh, I put the platypus system, bug spray and sunscreen, booze, and my pack cover. I don't even use the lid except for wallet and keys. For a 3 day trip, I have tons of room left in the inner compartment. Even on the six day trip. I still could have fit more if I had used the expansion sleeve.

This makes me think I could go with an Ohm or a Gorilla. Only downside I can see obviously is that I would exceed the weight limits on longer trips.

bigcranky
07-21-2015, 06:30
The Circuit would be a good choice. I carried our tent in the front pocket, in a long skinny homemade stuff sack so it carried upright. It still was able to hold a bunch of other personal gear. (Note that it was a very light tent, and I got a custom Circuit with the stretchy front pocket instead of the standard mesh.)

I would definitely get a Circuit instead of an Ohm for your total weights. I found the Ohm comfortable to about 24-25 pounds, and not at all comfortable above that.

If it were me, I would call ULA and talk about sizing and your fit issues. They are very helpful.

daddytwosticks
07-21-2015, 07:09
If you like Ospreys, take a look at some of their other models. I have an Exos 48 that is super comfortable. The Exos series does have the ability to attach items such as tents or pads to the bottom of the pack as you described. :)

Mobius
07-21-2015, 09:07
I can carry an SS2 in my Circuit along with everything else. I pack the tent vertically on one side, then all clothes/quilt in a compactor bag next to it. Food bag and cook kit sit on top. The only thing in the side pockets are water bottles. It's a pretty good sized pack. My carry weight for a long trip (5-6 day) is about like yours - 30 pounds. The pack can feel a bit empty on shorter trips but that's ok with me.

I've considered an Ohm but I don't technically _need_ another pack.

I hike with a lot of folks that love their GG Mariposa too.

Namtrag
07-21-2015, 11:07
The Circuit would be a good choice. I carried our tent in the front pocket, in a long skinny homemade stuff sack so it carried upright. It still was able to hold a bunch of other personal gear. (Note that it was a very light tent, and I got a custom Circuit with the stretchy front pocket instead of the standard mesh.)

I would definitely get a Circuit instead of an Ohm for your total weights. I found the Ohm comfortable to about 24-25 pounds, and not at all comfortable above that.

If it were me, I would call ULA and talk about sizing and your fit issues. They are very helpful.

I will definitely give them a call. I have heard nothing but good things about how they treat customers, and how they make sure you pick the right pack.


If you like Ospreys, take a look at some of their other models. I have an Exos 48 that is super comfortable. The Exos series does have the ability to attach items such as tents or pads to the bottom of the pack as you described. :)

I may do that, two sticks. I also have an Osprey Volt 60, and even though it's adjustable, I could never get it to sit right on me. Maybe the Exos would work. But like I said above, the Osprey lighter packs have some really thin hip and shoulder belts, and it's hard for me to take the hip belt cutting into my fat! lol


I can carry an SS2 in my Circuit along with everything else. I pack the tent vertically on one side, then all clothes/quilt in a compactor bag next to it. Food bag and cook kit sit on top. The only thing in the side pockets are water bottles. It's a pretty good sized pack. My carry weight for a long trip (5-6 day) is about like yours - 30 pounds. The pack can feel a bit empty on shorter trips but that's ok with me.

I've considered an Ohm but I don't technically _need_ another pack.

I hike with a lot of folks that love their GG Mariposa too.

I can see how the SS2 would fit that way, but I have always hated putting my tent in with everything else...for one, it can be wet, and more importantly, when we break camp, I can have everything else packed, and then just strap the tent on the bottom of my pack at the very end. I do like the Mariposa in that it has a big picket on one side where I could put our tent, and two pockets on the other side which I could put 2 1-liter bottles of water as a counterbalance. The only downside I have heard on the Mariposa is that it is hard to compress when you don't have it packed full. Anyone know about that?

Just Bill
07-21-2015, 11:49
Thanks, guys. That blog entry was very informational, and the Kalais is definitely a contender.

a couple of things I have read, including gbolt's post, make me think I might be able to go smaller than the Circuit/Mariposa size. I use a Talon 44 now, and typically, I put my quilt, stove, and sleeping pad at the very bottom, then my clothes and everything bag, and on top, I put the food bag. I then strap our tent to the bottom. In the front mesh, I put the platypus system, bug spray and sunscreen, booze, and my pack cover. I don't even use the lid except for wallet and keys. For a 3 day trip, I have tons of room left in the inner compartment. Even on the six day trip. I still could have fit more if I had used the expansion sleeve.

This makes me think I could go with an Ohm or a Gorilla. Only downside I can see obviously is that I would exceed the weight limits on longer trips.

A few thoughts-
General wisdom- around 25lbs at least one stay is needed, around 30 lbs two, and around 35lbs a frame of some sort does the job. You can add or subtract 5lbs to any of those numbers depending on your packing style, experience, and tolerance for discomfort.

It sounds like your packing style is tending to push more weight outside your center of gravity. This tends to torque a hipbelt a bit.

A shorter torso tends to compound that issue as well as there isn't much pack left to transfer the load.
With most of your weight high and out, as opposed to high and tight. Rather than hanging on your shoulders and pulling downward on your hips; the weight is tipping back, pulling away, and putting more pressure on the top edge of the hip belt. Which makes you want to tense it up, which makes it cut more into your sides.

Regardless of the pack, I think you should look at your packing style/sequence a bit more. Even without knowing your gear; your everything bag, food bag, and tent are all being packed far outside the ideal zone. While there are a few versions basically-

If you picture a hydration pack- think of the water bladder as your ideal zone. Then try to get the heaviest items closest to this spot. Centered on your spine, between hips and shoulders (or above shoulders) and close to your back.

An easier way to pack this way to get the hang of it- Lay your pack down instead of filling it like a garbage can. Put your pad, stove, sleep clothes etc into the bottom. You may need to switch food bags (tall/skinny vs short/fat) but that should probably next right against your back. If you have the spare room- you could slide your tent right in on top of or next to your food bag depending on fit.
Last- pack in your spare clothes and quilt around the sides and to fill out the pack. I'd also suggest breaking up your everything bag into a common use and "OH $hit!" bag. Most of the stuff you might want you don't need often. I keep the common stuff handy (TP, Soap, headlamp, compass, knife, lighter with blister tape). The rest is buried in the food bag.

Most hikers fall into a system of sorting out the next day's food the evening before. That way you don't need to get to the food bag during the day. If you have hip pouches or easy to access places that's where the daily food goes. If not- lid or on top of the gear in your main compartment is good.

Booze, bug dope, sunscreen etc. Likely weigh more than you think. Move those up to the empty lid. The lid is meant for things you want during the day- but it's location (high and tight) keeps the weight over your shoulders- rather than out back.

Keeping pack cover, wind shell, and perhaps the water treatment out in the mesh makes sense.

Think of a hammer. It doesn't seem heavy when you hold it by the head, but even an 8 ounce trim hammer feels pretty solid when you hold it by the 12" handle. Keeping your heavy stuff outside your center of gravity just puts a longer and longer handle on the hammer of weight beating you down all day. It makes your pack work harder than it needs to.

Play with repacking your load. It will help you more with any pack you choose.
Doing more with less will let you carry "less" pack too.
Doing less with more will force you to buy more pack than you need to stabilize a load.

Regardless of the weight you carry, how you carry it matters just as much.

Not to pick on you...
It's a common thing for folks to want to keep things "handy".
But handy things tend to be the heaviest things.

Namtrag
07-21-2015, 12:51
Great advice, Bill. I just was packing in the way that I could get things to fit best. I didn't think about where the weight was at all.

If I understand you, if the pack were standing up, you'd have me put clothes, stove, and pad at the bottom, but along the edge away from my back...then put the food bag down, standing vertically against my back. Am I picturing it right. I use a pretty big Opsak (I believe it is 12x20) because I carry all the food for my wife and me. It could stand vertically dead center against my back and I could squeeze other stuff down around it.

In any case, thanks again, and I will play around with it!

I still like having the tent outside the compartment so I can pack everything else and be ready to walk out of camp right after we take down our tent, but I don't see a lot of other people doing it this way. Seems pretty logical to me!

Anyway, maybe my M/L torso size will work better with the load packed right.

Just Bill
07-21-2015, 13:37
Great advice, Bill. I just was packing in the way that I could get things to fit best. I didn't think about where the weight was at all.

If I understand you, if the pack were standing up, you'd have me put clothes, stove, and pad at the bottom, but along the edge away from my back...then put the food bag down, standing vertically against my back. Am I picturing it right. I use a pretty big Opsak (I believe it is 12x20) because I carry all the food for my wife and me. It could stand vertically dead center against my back and I could squeeze other stuff down around it.

In any case, thanks again, and I will play around with it!

I still like having the tent outside the compartment so I can pack everything else and be ready to walk out of camp right after we take down our tent, but I don't see a lot of other people doing it this way. Seems pretty logical to me!

Anyway, maybe my M/L torso size will work better with the load packed right.

Depending on the pack- you could probably put the pad against your butt- nice to have something soft there- with the sleep clothes/stove towards the outside. Nice not to have a hard stove against your butt. This probably doesn't take up much "height" with the pack standing up.

I have a home-made food bag- 8x8x24" tall to keep the tube shape and my heaviest items centered. But yes, assuming it fits fine- 12" wide by 20" tall is pretty good too. I keep mine up a bit, but with a 19" torso you may not have room to push the food bag much higher than a few inches off the bottom of the pack. Move some of your heavier ditty bag items to the food bag too. (spare batteries, sewing kits, etc. that you don't need daily)

As fer the tent- the better place to carry it if you want it out would be over the closed body but under the lid. That way it's up high and tighter to your shoulders but still easy to get to.

Another option is to remove the poles from the tent bag, slip those into the pack along the outsides and stuff the tent into any dead space remaining in the body. So it's still the "last in, first out" but packs better. Without the poles you may find the tent forms a "U" that wraps the food bag pretty well.

In general- the more compact and tight you make your load- the better it carries and packs.
Also a "slack" pack tends to shift more- meaning that finding a way to fill your pack is also a form of balancing the load and stabilizing it. One trick commonly used is two food bags in/shelter out. When the first food bag is emptied up and space opens up, the shelter goes in the pack. In UL packs- a full main compartment greatly assists the frame by creating a rigid pack body.

Osprey is generally a cadillac, I think you'll be disappointed trying to switch to a cottage pack unless you go way overboard in terms of the intended load. Getting the load balanced first will fix problems with most packs and it may turn out you don't have a problem!

If rebalancing the load doesn't fix everything- I would second the recommendation to try the Exos 48 at an REI, the butterfly frame hugs hips well and transfers great for shorter torso folks. If you have wider hips, the frame pinches a bit, but if it fits you right it can carry 50+ pretty comfortably in a 2lb package.

Studlintsean
07-21-2015, 13:49
I haven't had the chance to read everything so I apologize if this was already addressed but I have the circuit, generally carry about 20 lbs, and put my Tarptent Contrail in one side pocket and two 1 liter platypus in the other side. Hope this helps a bit.

Namtrag
07-21-2015, 14:41
31415

Here is a pic of my pack from about a year ago. I remember it was a pretty long trip in Grayson Highlands, so I am guessing I had total pack weight of about 30. I am 5'8" and 200lbs, so am pretty stout around the chest and midsection...I just feel like the pack straps aren't quite long enough or thick enough to be comfortable. Like those two little candy bar pockets on the front of the shoulder straps. I am pretty sure they are supposed to be 9-12" further down in front than they are. lol

To me, it looks like the pack is riding 2-3" below where it should. I thing the bottom of the hip belt is at my waist.


Maybe my problem on my recent trip was the fact that my tent was soaking wet, as were most of my clothes. I bet I was pushing upper 30's to 40 lbs until the food got down a bit.

Dochartaigh
07-21-2015, 15:25
I would look into a Zpacks Arc Haul personally. My max weight is around 22 pounds with food/water/fuel (more like 17-18 for weekend trips which I normally do) and my Arc Blast has been incredibly comfortable. The Arc Haul is the same basic design but beefed up for slightly heavier loads like yours.

I tried the GG Gorilla (little brother to the Mariposa) and didn't like how no matter how I packed it the back would bow-out since there's no frame in the middle there (only a flimsy sheet of foam). I tried the ULA Ohm 2.0 as well and found similar. The extra stay in the ULA Circuit should combat that phenomenon hopefully though (can't add more on that exact pack since I haven't tried it).

My second go-to pack is the Exos 58 like several have mentioned. I just don't see the waist belt being beefy enough for the loads you're trying to carry (but of course that completely depends on you and how you handle a loaded pack). The Exos is great for my loads the couple weekends I've tried it (keep on going back to my Arc Blast so it hasn't gotten that much use...), but I think upper of 30 pounds would be pushing it no matter what weight they specify it can handle. You'll see what I mean when you handle the pack - the waist belt is a funky mesh that isn't that solid at all.

Namtrag
07-21-2015, 15:43
I haven't had the chance to read everything so I apologize if this was already addressed but I have the circuit, generally carry about 20 lbs, and put my Tarptent Contrail in one side pocket and two 1 liter platypus in the other side. Hope this helps a bit.

Yeah, that is a lot lighter than my load, but I think the Circuit can handle it ok.


I would look into a Zpacks Arc Haul personally. My max weight is around 22 pounds with food/water/fuel (more like 17-18 for weekend trips which I normally do) and my Arc Blast has been incredibly comfortable. The Arc Haul is the same basic design but beefed up for slightly heavier loads like yours.

I tried the GG Gorilla (little brother to the Mariposa) and didn't like how no matter how I packed it the back would bow-out since there's no frame in the middle there (only a flimsy sheet of foam). I tried the ULA Ohm 2.0 as well and found similar. The extra stay in the ULA Circuit should combat that phenomenon hopefully though (can't add more on that exact pack since I haven't tried it).

My second go-to pack is the Exos 58 like several have mentioned. I just don't see the waist belt being beefy enough for the loads you're trying to carry (but of course that completely depends on you and how you handle a loaded pack). The Exos is great for my loads the couple weekends I've tried it (keep on going back to my Arc Blast so it hasn't gotten that much use...), but I think upper of 30 pounds would be pushing it no matter what weight they specify it can handle. You'll see what I mean when you handle the pack - the waist belt is a funky mesh that isn't that solid at all.

Yeah, the Z Packs look great, but they are up above my price range unless I win the lottery :(. I may go try on an Exos and take all my crap to load in it. Just to see how it rides.

Dochartaigh
07-21-2015, 15:58
Yeah, the Z Packs look great, but they are up above my price range unless I win the lottery :(.
$305 vs. $220 for the Osprey (and add 6% sales tax if bought in a store ;). Not a very large price difference when we're talking about high-end camping gear. ZPacks also custom makes the packs to your exact specs - so you'll know it fits perfectly (Ospey is only available in 3 sizes -with no torso adjustment to boot- which may not be exactly perfect for you).

Namtrag
07-21-2015, 16:16
True Dochartaigh. It might be worth it to get a pack that fits that well!

I was reading their site and they are very vague on torso sizing. Here is what they say to do " Your best bet for sizing is to find an existing pack that you like and measure it directly". That's rough in my case since I can't find a pack that I like! lol

I am going to read up some more on the Arc Haul to get more informed. It's definitely a contender!

Just Bill
07-21-2015, 20:43
31415

Here is a pic of my pack from about a year ago. I remember it was a pretty long trip in Grayson Highlands, so I am guessing I had total pack weight of about 30. I am 5'8" and 200lbs, so am pretty stout around the chest and midsection...I just feel like the pack straps aren't quite long enough or thick enough to be comfortable. Like those two little candy bar pockets on the front of the shoulder straps. I am pretty sure they are supposed to be 9-12" further down in front than they are. lol

To me, it looks like the pack is riding 2-3" below where it should. I thing the bottom of the hip belt is at my waist.


Maybe my problem on my recent trip was the fact that my tent was soaking wet, as were most of my clothes. I bet I was pushing upper 30's to 40 lbs until the food got down a bit.

Overall, looks like the pack is actually too small for you. The shoulder straps are doing a full wrap on your shoulders and your hipbelt is riding a bit high.
I think a trip to REI to get fitted is probably a better bet for you... Provided you actually get someone who knows how to fit you.
This still remains my favorite, though more instructive videos exist- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO4VqSX3NpQ

Most packs are made for a range, and even then, they may not actually be produced to match your torso size exactly. What Joe at Zpacks is also saying is true. The actual measurement from hipbelt to where shoulder straps attach to the body may not actually match your torso size. In general it is roughly 2" difference depending on the design.
That's the reason he mentions measuring an actual pack you use. It's a bit more accurate IMO. I actually like to use a carpenter's square to find my measurement by resting it on my shoulder.

So let's say your pack is actually a bit short. You can still measure from the bottom of the hipbelt to the shoulder strap. When you hit the store you can ignore the torso numbers and compare that number. It eliminates you falling "in between" sizes, and also eliminates the design quirks or designer preferences in building a pack to match that torso. Eyeballing it- if your pack is sitting on top of your hip, and that's a 4" belt, you need 2 more inches than your existing pack to get the belt lower. This would also put the belt lower and out of the way of your stomach/sides. The wings of the belt seem a bit short too, but that is also an osprey thing to an extent.

The other problem you may have- when your load is out and back- you tend to feel the need to keep pulling on the shoulder straps to attempt to get the load back in the sweet spot. But since the shoulder is tied to the hip... you just keep pulling your belt higher. If you rebalance your load, try starting with the hipbelt first, and just tightening the shoulder straps to snug. Your hipbelt should be clipped first, but lotsa dudes like to get the shoulders right first and then do the hip.

In a pack with a frame- If a pack is balanced, and fitting right, you should be able to completely loosen the shoulder straps and still have the load sit on your hips. The shoulder straps take a little load, but mainly prevent it from falling backwards or shifting.

Namtrag
07-22-2015, 08:49
I guess, Bill, that I am at a loss as to how that pack is too short. It is a 19-23" torso, and my torso is 19" max (I am only 5'8"). The only thing I can come up with is that it is too small in the fact that the straps, particularly the shoulder straps, are too short for the thickness of my upper body from front to back. I could never get my fully adjustable Osprey Volt to ever fit right either, and it had a universal torso that you could adjust. Same issue, the shoulder straps never fit right.

I can play around with the Talon and move the torso adjustment to longer to see if that helps, but based on how the pack was riding last week (it was resting on top my butt cheeks lol), I would have guessed it was already too long.

Edit: I have also seen few people whose packs are even with the top or just below the shoulders, which is another reason I thought the pack was too long. Mine is frequently low like that.

gbolt
07-22-2015, 09:06
Thanks for the picture... Easier to see how the pack is riding. I am not a pack salesperson and do not know how to professionally fit packs. However, in my opinion:

1. The capacity of the pack in the picture is good for your load.
2. The ride of the pack is not what I am use to seeing.
3. You are correct, the straps are not wide enough for your build and are pulling back and down. They should be lower on your chest and be pulling forward.
4. The bottom of the pack looks like it should raise one or two inches; which could be done by lowering the belt. (A positive on ULA's whether Circuit or Ohm).
5. The belt is riding a bit high on the hip crest and actually looks one size to small. The padded part of a belt should cover where a "hip pointer" contusion (football term sorry) occurs. The edge of your hip belt (not counting the adjustment strap) looks like it just barely covers that.

Just my suggestion from my experience - I went and honestly looked at the Exos 58. I was sized and put into the correct pack. I packed my items in their pack. I walked around the store to get a good feel. I unloaded everything and then asked if they thought I could get into an Exos 48 (you probably don't have to worry because you have the talon capacity figured out. I then took their measurements on a card to "Think about it".

I purchased $20 to $50 Dollars of gear that I needed that wasn't specialty gear. I beleive I bought the Micro Rocket and gas. The sales person was happy that I didn't just walk out without any sale. I felt good because I like the store even though I purchase most items from the Cottage Industry. I then used the knowledge gained to decide on the ULA Ohm. Yet, honestly, I think I could have been happy with the Ospry. I really appreciate the lighter weight Ohm, the slight adjustability, the more minimal feel to it, yet it has some typical "bells and whistles". For me, the Zpacks and some of the lighter UL packs was to big a step for me to make at once. Maybe one day. Deciding between a Circuit that I was sure matched the Exos and going with the OHm was scary enough. Howevern, now I wouldn't trade my Ohm.

Keep researching, you are getting closer!!!

gbolt
07-22-2015, 09:11
PS. Just Bill posted close to what I posted before I did! He speaks the truth! lol

Namtrag
07-22-2015, 09:29
Thanks, Bill and gbolt for taking the time to help me. With both posts, I am coming to the conclusion that the pack could both be too long torso-wise, but too small fit-wise in all other aspects. I simply am too bulky for the pack I think. I think that was the problem i had with the Volt 60 I had as well. Osprey may well be mass producing the packs for the "average" hiker, and I am a 5'8" guy who wears a 42 coat. I think I am large to extra large in bulk, but medium in torso length, and that's got to be tough to fit.

gbolt, the hip belt on the Osprey is fixed, as you probably know, so I can't lower or raise it, and it sounds like the ULA's would be adjustable for that part. It is also a fixed size as far as girth goes, so I can't do anything to fix it, except get my damn fat off lol.

It seems like someone could come out with packs that fit short, stocky people like me. I sure see a lot more like me than I do like the skinny prototypes they use to make their packs.

What sucks is that I really love this pack. It fits so much stuff in it, much more than the 60 liter Volt.

Just Bill
07-22-2015, 09:50
http://www.zpacks.com/images/backpacks/arc/grn_side_l.jpg

See if this works- hopefully goes right to a nice pic. If not, even the main pic used on his backpack page is a decent one. The front and side shot is what I am looking at.

What you should be seeing- the shoulder strap comes over the shoulder and then runs almost straight back into the pack body. The radius of the strap breaks on or above the collar bone.
(as a side note for those reading along- the shoulder strap wrapping over this point is often the source of nerve pain and shoulder discomfort)

Your strap wraps all the way around and attaches near the shoulder blade.
In doing so you "eat up" 3-6" of strap wrapping your shoulder.
It also puts the hammer head further down the handle so to speak and makes the pack feel more tippy.
Having the straps up high controls the load and pulls it to you much better.

That's why I'm saying your pack is too short.
Empty the pack, put it on, then stand in front of a mirror.
The point the shoulder straps attach to the pack should be level with the top of your shoulder.
Ideally, you can see the attachment point while facing the mirror without having to turn sideways.

I'm all for shopping a cottage vendor, but until you nail down these dimensions for yourself it's going to be a frustrating process.

As for large chests and short torso's... I believe there is an entire sex of hikers that have packs designed for them you may want to look at. ;) Just about every kid in the scout troop I was in and have worked with used women's gear.

But seriously, getting the straps where they belong will buy you back a few inches of strap.
Once you nail down your hipbelt to strap distance, you can also measure:
the hipbelt- tip to tip.
the shoulder strap length- from body to tip
Distance between shoulder straps- from center to center at the point they attach to the pack.

Those four numbers are the one's you will want to get good feedback and service from a cottage vendor. Otherwise it's like shopping mail order shoes.

Just Bill
07-22-2015, 10:01
Oh- if it makes you feel any better- 42" chest is the bottom of Large in the fairly tight fitting Patagonia line.
Medium tops out at 40". So while your gun show is impressive... it's not too far out there. :D

Namtrag
07-22-2015, 10:03
I will give it a shot, Bill. I have it adjusted down to 19" now, so I can lengthen it by moving the velcroed pad it has.

It's worth trying before buying another pack.

I do want to make an argument that the same symptoms seem to be able to occur from a torso size that's too long, imo. the fact that the torso is too long would allow the pack weight to pull the shoulder straps up and over too far. Or am I totally off-base?

In any case, I don't have a trip for a couple of weeks, so I should be able to either dial it in by then, or figure out that it's not a good fit.

Thanks, again, Bill.

Namtrag
07-22-2015, 10:04
Oh- if it makes you feel any better- 42" chest is the bottom of Large in the fairly tight fitting Patagonia line.
Medium tops out at 40". So while your gun show is impressive... it's not too far out there. :D

Oh I used to have the gun show...I am just fat now! lol

Just Bill
07-22-2015, 10:17
I actually prefer my shoulder strap attachment to be an inch above my shoulder blade. Much more than that is going to far I think. I've learned not to get too caught up in the industry numbers, they are pretty arbitrary. Go by sight and actual measurements of the pack- not torso. I think it's a pack builders thing, and Joe is doing a good job of educating customers in that regard. The measurements we use to build are different than those used to fit.

So to counter and agree with your argument at the same time-

A- My original theory was that your packing style produced an unbalanced load- same packing style would produce the same result regardless of pack yes? That's why that is the first thing to try/fix. A pack can't fix it unless you go to a full framed load hauler that can take 50lbs with ease, but if you want to stay in a more minimal pack- you have to pack it better.

B- Toss the torso measurement out and physically measure the pack.

C- We're discussing packs with some type of internal frame. In a frameless pack- you might be correct on too long torso. The BPL folks have invented the term "torso collapse" to describe the condition. If the torso length is too long then the hip belt is on right, but the extra length causes the load to sag between the hip and shoulders.
With even a minimal internal frame though this issue is mostly eliminated. Think of it more like a broomstick. Hold the end in your left hand and rest it on your butt while you hold it vertical behind your back. The broomstick can't collapse. So if your right hand is your should strap you could reach over and grab the broom wherever it was comfortable and still prevent it from falling backwards with minimal effort.


Like I say, even if this pack is a bust- you're educating yourself on fit and design.
Lot's of folks talk about buying custom or cottage packs but it's not much use unless you know what you're buying.

Just Bill
07-22-2015, 10:20
Oh I used to have the gun show...I am just fat now! lol

Me too.
On a further side note- I have a 46" chest. An extra number I use when I built my pack to calculate shoulder strap length is to stand against a wall and measure from the wall to my nipples- basically my chest depth. That number becomes the radius of the 1/4 circle I use to design the shoulder strap. For me that number is 10"

That number- more than chest size is what dictates shoulder strap length.

Namtrag
07-22-2015, 10:28
Got it, Bill! Time to do some detective work on my pack.

The bad thing is, even if I figure the pack length part out, I can't make the hip belt longer :)

Here is another, maybe better view, of my pack It doesn't seem to bind so bad in this shot
. 31418

Namtrag
07-22-2015, 10:52
Me too.
On a further side note- I have a 46" chest. An extra number I use when I built my pack to calculate shoulder strap length is to stand against a wall and measure from the wall to my nipples- basically my chest depth. That number becomes the radius of the 1/4 circle I use to design the shoulder strap. For me that number is 10"

That number- more than chest size is what dictates shoulder strap length.

I will try that. I am built more like a barrel, so my coat is a 42", but my shoulders are actually kind of narrow, meaning the size comes from the thickness of my upper body, not the width.

Venchka
07-22-2015, 10:55
Just Bill & gbolt verbalized my thoughts exactly on the packing issues. Light weight low. Heavy weight high. All of it as close to your back as possible. If they didn't say it already, I would add that it would be a good thing to transfer items you need to get to easily on the trail to your top lid. No point in leaving it empty. Rain gear. Snacks. First aid kit. Navigation aids. I even carry a 1 liter Platypus bottle and hose in my top lid. Very convenient, weight in the right place, I drink more often having the hose handy. All of this in a pack built before the Camelbak influence.
I have no idea what the cost is, but you might want to talk to Chris Zimmer at Zimmerbuilt Packs. Your unique body shape might be best suited to a made to measure for YOU backpack. Things like Bills shoulder strap radius measurement for example could make all the difference in pack fit and comfort. Just a thought since you have already tried two off the shelf packs from a reputable manufacturer with less than ideal results.
http://www.zimmerbuilt.com/

I too am 5'-8" with an 18"-19" torso. The last time I was fitted for a pack, Osprey Aether 60 & 70, the two people fitting me both said that I as right on the dividing line between medium and large torso in the Osprey scheme of measuring. I wasn't aware of that. Both of my backpacks are a size medium and I love both of them. I like them even better since I lost all of my "pack weight" off of my body. I went from 180+ to 145 (+ or -). I can carry a fully loaded pack now and be no heavier than I was without a pack before.

Good luck!

Wayne

Venchka
07-22-2015, 11:02
Looking at your picture...
A horizontal line around the middle (top to bottom of the belt) of the hip belts sits on top of my pelvic bones. Iliac crest, I think, in medical terms. That places the belt well below my actual waist and provides a firm support for the load.
Just a hunch: You are trying to backpack with what is actually a day pack. The belt is there to keep the pack from flopping around but is not meant to transfer load to your hips.

Wayne

Just Bill
07-22-2015, 11:16
Got it, Bill! Time to do some detective work on my pack.

The bad thing is, even if I figure the pack length part out, I can't make the hip belt longer :)

Here is another, maybe better view, of my pack It doesn't seem to bind so bad in this shot
. 31418

That shoulder strap location is better- but belt is too high. Catch 22 there.

Not that you are destitute or desperate enough but for fun-
The sock trick!
When fitting scouts for packs we ran into the hipbelt problem- women's pack for torso length was a win but the hipbelts were often smaller like all the osprey packs are and poor fitting. Also the boys tended to have hips that were too small and they needed some filler.

So we took a tube sock and cut the toe off. Then slipped a 4" x 10" or so piece of blue foam pad into the sock. Then slid the whole sock- padding side in- over the hip belt. Extra pad volume and extra padded length.

Though if you're buying a pack these days... this trick is really only good for kids packs that they are growing into. But... if you're ever on trail and get some hip issues you can find some tube socks and foam in most places to get you by.

Trick should work on a shoulder strap too if you cut some spots for the sternum straps now that I think on it...

Namtrag
07-22-2015, 11:27
Thanks, Venchka. I will check into zimmerbuilt.

For the most part, I do keep the light weight low and the heavy weight high...except for my tent, which weighs 42 oz when not soaking wet! lol.

Here is what I may try:

Bottom layer: Quilt (23 oz) in a stuff sack with sleeping pad (klymit v insulated pad, rolled up) (26oz), and jetboil (16 oz), side by side on bottom. Total bottom layer 4 lbs.

Second layer: tent if it fits sidesways (42 oz)

Top layer: food bag against back (8lbs + depending on trip length) (I carry for me and my wife). Away from my back, I can put my clothes bag (2lbs?) and everything bag, which probably weighs 20oz, and my garbage bag, which weighs very little.

Lid: Pint of whisky, Platypus gravityworks 2 liter (dirty bag, clean bag, and filter), sunblock, bug spray, and any other misc crap.

Does this sound like a good first try?

The only other option I can think is to put my quilt on the bottom on one side, then put the tent next to it standing on its side in the bag. Nestle my stove and sleeping pad on top of the quilt next to the tent. That would square off the shape. Then I could place the food bag on top of that against my back, with the clothes and everything bags holding it in place against my back...lid would stay the same.

Namtrag
07-22-2015, 11:30
Looking at your picture...
A horizontal line around the middle (top to bottom of the belt) of the hip belts sits on top of my pelvic bones. Iliac crest, I think, in medical terms. That places the belt well below my actual waist and provides a firm support for the load.
Just a hunch: You are trying to backpack with what is actually a day pack. The belt is there to keep the pack from flopping around but is not meant to transfer load to your hips.

Wayne

Actually that pack is is rated green up to 30lbs on the osprey site, then goes green to yellow between 30-40. I know two thru hikers that used it, but they were much skinnier than I! lol

Congrats on getting the extra pack weight off of yourself! I am working on that as well. I am down about 15lbs from my high weight, but would like to lose 25 more.

Namtrag
07-22-2015, 11:30
That shoulder strap location is better- but belt is too high. Catch 22 there.

Not that you are destitute or desperate enough but for fun-
The sock trick!
When fitting scouts for packs we ran into the hipbelt problem- women's pack for torso length was a win but the hipbelts were often smaller like all the osprey packs are and poor fitting. Also the boys tended to have hips that were too small and they needed some filler.

So we took a tube sock and cut the toe off. Then slipped a 4" x 10" or so piece of blue foam pad into the sock. Then slid the whole sock- padding side in- over the hip belt. Extra pad volume and extra padded length.

Though if you're buying a pack these days... this trick is really only good for kids packs that they are growing into. But... if you're ever on trail and get some hip issues you can find some tube socks and foam in most places to get you by.

Trick should work on a shoulder strap too if you cut some spots for the sternum straps now that I think on it...

Might have to use that tube sock, foam pad trick. It actually sounds like it might work on those flimsy hip straps!

Namtrag
07-22-2015, 12:39
There was a flurry of posts, so I am posting this again in case it might have been missed by my advisory board members lol

For the most part, I do keep the light weight low and the heavy weight high...except for my tent, which weighs 42 oz when not soaking wet! lol.

Here is what I may try:

Bottom layer: Quilt (23 oz) in a stuff sack with sleeping pad (klymit v insulated pad, rolled up) (26oz), and jetboil (16 oz), side by side on bottom. Total bottom layer 4 lbs.

Second layer: tent if it fits sidesways (42 oz)

Top layer: food bag against back (8lbs + depending on trip length) (I carry for me and my wife). Away from my back, I can put my clothes bag (2lbs?) and everything bag, which probably weighs 20oz, and my garbage bag, which weighs very little.

Lid: Pint of whisky, Platypus gravityworks 2 liter (dirty bag, clean bag, and filter), sunblock, bug spray, and any other misc crap.

Does this sound like a good first try?

The only other option I can think is to put my quilt on the bottom on one side, then put the tent next to it standing on its side in the bag. Nestle my stove and sleeping pad on top of the quilt next to the tent. That would square off the shape. Then I could place the food bag on top of that against my back, with the clothes and everything bags holding it in place against my back...lid would stay the same.

joe.vance.440
07-22-2015, 16:11
My osprey atmos ag fits like a glove, interesting design


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Namtrag
07-22-2015, 17:40
It's 4lbs, but I bet it is a lot more comfy!

Venchka
07-22-2015, 17:44
A 4 pound pack that fits, disappears with a load and does the jobs it is asked to do beats the WINE out of a 2 pound pack that doesn't fit, won't do the job at hand and reminds you of it's presence every step.
Just my own personal opinion. YMMV.

Wayne

Namtrag
07-22-2015, 18:05
I am starting to think that too....just the cushier hip belt alone might make it worth the weight difference

Namtrag
07-22-2015, 20:12
I just noticed that you guys are saying my hip belt is too high. I found my iliac crest tonight, and looking at the pic of me in Orange shirt, the belt is actually a little low, that is if the iliac crest is supposed to bisect the hip belt. Now I am really confused.

BirdBrain
07-22-2015, 20:40
A 4 pound pack that fits, disappears with a load and does the jobs it is asked to do beats the WINE out of a 2 pound pack that doesn't fit, won't do the job at hand and reminds you of it's presence every step.
Just my own personal opinion. YMMV.

Wayne

That is where I am at too. I have an Osprey Aether. I chopped off everything I could to get it as light as possible. It still is heavy. But man is it comfortable. If it starts to hurt anywhere I tighten the hip belt like crazy and loosen other stuff up a tad. I am so envious of other people's pack weight. But I doubt I could ever find a pack as comfortable.

Venchka
07-22-2015, 21:25
I just noticed that you guys are saying my hip belt is too high. I found my iliac crest tonight, and looking at the pic of me in Orange shirt, the belt is actually a little low, that is if the iliac crest is supposed to bisect the hip belt. Now I am really confused.
I'm stumped. I told you that I was not a pack fitter. I must be an easy fit or I got lucky. I bought both of may packs through the mail.

Wayne

Just Bill
07-23-2015, 09:55
Figured I'd answer your PM here- always good to have second opinions.
http://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/backpacks-torso-hip-size.html

The picture in this one is a bit more helpful.
With the caveat that every body is different.

In anatomy terms the iliac crest is pretty easy to identify, especially in a skeleton.
(in the photos- your shorter torso and resulting longer t-shirt may have been throwing off the visual too)

Seeing as each of us then have to add all the rest of our parts, pieces, and spare tires onto that skeleton it isn't as cut and dry. If you look at our buddy the skeleton you see that the crest isn't exactly a definite point and is a rounded/teardrop shape. While the actual high point in the back is the "official" spot to measure your torso, it's not uncommon for this point to be the top of the belt, not the center.

Two things actually matter-
1- Where do your hipbones pop on the sides of your body, or do they at all?

This is the spot you want your pack to grab. For some it's around the belly button, but for most it is lower. A decent rule of thumb (unless you've got the beach ball beer belly)- stack your four fingers under your belly button and that is roughly the center of your hipbelt. If you do have too much of a belly- stack your four fingers atop your dickydoo along your abdomen ala Al Bundy and that will put you in the ball park from the other direction.
Another trick/tip- put your hands on your hips and do a side bend- that break point/bony bump is a good indicator too and will point you to where the business end of your iliac crest actually is.

2- Where do you feel most comfortable wearing the belt?

At the end of the day, that's all that matters. Does your body have somewhere that the belt cups? Does it slide or stay in place? Does it feel secure without pinching?

I got a decent dookie-booty and prefer the bottom of my pack to rest on my butt. Most guys and skinny girls have no hips or ass, so they tend to wear the belt a bit higher and pinch their abdomen so they have something to grab onto. Women tend to wear their packs differently too, and a true women's pack often has a conical shape to fit their shape better. That's why when it comes to packs- I consider them pretty sexless- pick the design that fits your body best and don't worry about the labels on the tags.

The odder your hip shape, the more padding/belt you tend to need.
The more curvy you are- the more conical shape you need.
The skinnier you are- the less belt you need. (you want the force concentrated in a smaller area to grab what little meat you got)

As fer your packing- seems reasonable.
An alternate image I used for scouts is the hard shell taco.
Picture the flat of the shell against your back. You want the meat piled in the middle (heavy) then the cheese and salsa (medium) then the lettuce and toppings furthest out (lightest stuff).

The only critique I have of your plan is to try to get more meat to the center with your short torso.
So save the quilt for last and pack that around everything else last if possible- topping off your taco so to speak.

Just Bill
07-23-2015, 10:00
Last thought on your packing- I'm picturing two oxygen tanks- one your food bag, one your tent. if that helps.
Or with food bag shape you mentioned, you may need to refold your tent to match that more square shape. Food bag sitting on your rolled up pad, then tent sitting on the foodbag. from bottom to top.

At some point you will pack up in the rain- so try to have a system that lets you slip in your shelter easily at the end.

Namtrag
07-23-2015, 11:45
Bill, you are truly a gentleman to give me all this great advice. I owe you a beer or three!

I did the side bend exercise, and the top of my hips at my sides is just above the level of my navel, so I must have a weird build!

I plan on trying out some of your packing ideas this weekend when I have time to dick around with it. I also will adjust my torso/shoulder strap on the pack so it's a couple of inches longer and see how it all works.

Like you said above, the most important thing is to find what's comfortable, numbers be damned!

I do know that I like the feel of my pack when it's sitting up higher. It feels like the weight is centered right above my tailbone when I have the pack up higher.

Thanks again Bill

Laughter95
07-23-2015, 21:40
Check out the user, "b_rad_ical (https://www.reddit.com/user/b_rad_ical)", and his input into this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/comments/3e0f1p/osprey_exos_48_pack_or_ula_circuit_or/

He hiked the PCT, saw most people using ULA Circuits, he uses a Granite Gear (GG) Crown VC 60. Another guy at backcountrybanter.com uses the same GG pack.

I've used the Circuit for a bit over a year now and have gone on two 1-1.5wk trips with it, and a bunch of the average weekend trips that office workers can budget. It's been great, but I am curious if I can find better load lifter support.

I asked bigcranky about his user input on his new Arc Haul since he bought that after years of using his Circuit. Here he recommends you to get a Circuit.

I personally would go for a Circuit over the GG pack because of the hip belt pockets. I always carry my map, compass, and chapstick in one pocket. The other is for a ProBar or other snack. I don't want to pay more to add GG pockets. Also the GG Crown VC doesn't have as sturdy of a frame. The GG Blaze has a rigid plastic frame but I found that the end dug into my lower back.

You could also try the Exos 58. But for me, the frame was too small for my hips. The corners dug into my sides. I am positive I'm smaller than you too as I'm 150lbs and 5'7". The center of gravity is a little less optimal as compared to a pack w/out back ventilation as the weight is set closer to the back.

So maybe you can try this:

1. Go to REI and try the Exos 58, Atmos AG (http://sectionhiker.com/osprey-packs-atmos-ag-50-backpack-review/), and the Granite Gear Crown VC 60. See if these work, buy it when there is at least 20% discount.

2. If the mainstream doesn't satisfy, call ULA to get sized for a Circuit.

3. If you are willing to pay a $120 premium over the Circuit, you could be like bigcranky and buy a Zpacks Arc Haul for $357 w/hip pockets, ice axe loops, and trekking pole holders.

Namtrag
07-24-2015, 09:37
Laughter95, thanks for the suggestions. I tried a GG Crown VC a while back and it felt like I was wearing a school backpack. I wasn't very comfortable in it. I have never tried an Atmos or Exos, so will give them a shot. This is all assuming I can't get my Talon adjusted better!

I really am leaning towards the Circuit though if I end up getting a new pack.

Also, thanks for the reddit link! Very informative, but it opened up another time waster for me to join! lol

Namtrag
07-24-2015, 11:31
Bill, et al...I did raise the shoulder strap adjustment about 2 inches and put about 15 lbs in it just to see what it felt like.

The steps I took were to put the pack on and tighten the hip belt where I wanted. The shoulder straps were not touching at all, so I tightened them down next. That brought them to where they were lightly touching on top of my shoulders, but from the top of my shoulders back to the pack itself, the straps no longer were touching as they did before. I could feel almost no weight on my shoulders at all since it was basically not really resting on my shoulders at all. The load lifters seemed to be at a better angle as well.

I will continue to tinker around this weekend with a real load, but does this sound more like how it should fit?

Just Bill
07-24-2015, 11:43
Bill, et al...I did raise the shoulder strap adjustment about 2 inches and put about 15 lbs in it just to see what it felt like.

The steps I took were to put the pack on and tighten the hip belt where I wanted. The shoulder straps were not touching at all, so I tightened them down next. That brought them to where they were lightly touching on top of my shoulders, but from the top of my shoulders back to the pack itself, the straps no longer were touching as they did before. I could feel almost no weight on my shoulders at all since it was basically not really resting on my shoulders at all. The load lifters seemed to be at a better angle as well.

I will continue to tinker around this weekend with a real load, but does this sound more like how it should fit?


Yar- sounds about right to me.
I like em just kissing my shoulder. Load lifters should run up about a 45* angle (depending on pack).
I don't know how stiff the frame in that pack is, but if all fits right and the frame design is good, you should be able to carry the pack with the hipbelt alone.

Namtrag
08-03-2015, 13:32
Bill, just for fun I did that measurement you described, from the wall over my shoulder and down to my nipples...14"

Another Kevin
08-03-2015, 14:22
Yar- sounds about right to me.
I like em just kissing my shoulder. Load lifters should run up about a 45* angle (depending on pack).
I don't know how stiff the frame in that pack is, but if all fits right and the frame design is good, you should be able to carry the pack with the hipbelt alone.

Bill knows this, but for anyone that doesn't: Once you have the ladder straps just kissing your shoulders, tighten the load lifters until the ladders are kissing your collarbones rather than the tops of your shoulders. If that makes the outer edge of them pull back on the humerus (you'll feel it when you swing your arms, snug up the sternum strap just a little bit until you've got the load off it. The last thing is to snug up the stabilizers on the hip belt if your pack has them. Now if you dance around a little bit, you can feel that the pack moves pretty rigidly with your back, so that you don't expend a lot of energy in your core just keeping your pack with you. The ladder straps are mostly keeping the pack from falling over backward or sideways, while the hip belt is bearing almost all the weight.

Namtrag
08-03-2015, 15:01
Bill knows this, but for anyone that doesn't: Once you have the ladder straps just kissing your shoulders, tighten the load lifters until the ladders are kissing your collarbones rather than the tops of your shoulders. If that makes the outer edge of them pull back on the humerus (you'll feel it when you swing your arms, snug up the sternum strap just a little bit until you've got the load off it. The last thing is to snug up the stabilizers on the hip belt if your pack has them. Now if you dance around a little bit, you can feel that the pack moves pretty rigidly with your back, so that you don't expend a lot of energy in your core just keeping your pack with you. The ladder straps are mostly keeping the pack from falling over backward or sideways, while the hip belt is bearing almost all the weight.

Almost every video and picture I see of how to fit a pack shows the shoulder straps going over the shoulders and down a bit on the back side before connecting into the pack body. The only one I have found that shows the shoulder strap going back to the pack level with the high point of the shoulder is the Z-packs pic.

that's why I am so confused....but I am going this weekend on an overnighter, and will definitely try lengthening my torso adjustment and seeing if I can get the shoulder straps as you and Bill describe! I have a feeling it will feel better with the torso longer. Last trip I had very sorry trapezoid muscles.

From Outdoor Gear Lab: The third fundamental is that that once the straps are adjusted you should ideally see the shoulder straps contouring up and over the wearer's shoulders with very little space or gaps.

Another site says: Your shoulder straps should completely wrap around your shoulders, with no gap between your shoulder blades and the shoulder harness. The connection points of your shoulder harness to the pack should begin about 2" below your C7 or the top of your shoulders.

Dochartaigh
08-03-2015, 16:40
The difference between ZPacks Arc Blast and other more traditional packs, is on the Zpacks your base weight should be so light that there's literally no weight whatsoever on the shoulder straps. The shoulder straps are solely there so the pack doesn't fall backwards.

On more traditional packs, with a more traditional base weight of say 25-30+ pounds, although they also say the shoulder straps are ONLY there so the pack doesn't fall back....but in reality as you move and flex your body while you hike (and expecially when the pack bounces a little bit) those shoulder straps still take on some of the weight of the pack – and that's when you want them to wrap around your shoulders a bit to distribute the weight a little more. (or I could be totally wrong...but that's what I've believe the biggest difference between the two is)

Namtrag
08-03-2015, 17:04
The difference between ZPacks Arc Blast and other more traditional packs, is on the Zpacks your base weight should be so light that there's literally no weight whatsoever on the shoulder straps. The shoulder straps are solely there so the pack doesn't fall backwards.

On more traditional packs, with a more traditional base weight of say 25-30+ pounds, although they also say the shoulder straps are ONLY there so the pack doesn't fall back....but in reality as you move and flex your body while you hike (and expecially when the pack bounces a little bit) those shoulder straps still take on some of the weight of the pack – and that's when you want them to wrap around your shoulders a bit to distribute the weight a little more. (or I could be totally wrong...but that's what I've believe the biggest difference between the two is)

Makes sense, dochartaigh...I will report back after this trip with the verdict on lengthening my torso adjustment and seeing if having the shoulder straps just touching works for me!

Namtrag
08-03-2015, 17:21
I did meet with a friend yesterday whom I backpack with a few times a year, and checked out his GG Mariposa. My stuff easily fit in the pack, and even our BV 450 fit easily in place of my food bag. I liked the feel of it, but didn't have a lot of time to mess around with the adjustments. The long side pocket on one side was awesome...our Stratospire 2 fit in it easily.

Next, I need to find a ULA Circuit to check out in person!

Namtrag
08-06-2015, 15:03
Six Moon Designs is selling off their Fusion 50 and Fusion 65 packs for $100 and $110, respectively. Apparently a new iteration of the pack is coming out, so they are trying to clear out the old.

I am tempted to get one, but my wife aka the boss says no...she wants me to get a Circuit or Mariposa since they are tried and true. She doesn't want me to have to keep saying I need a new pack lol

Mountain Wildman
08-06-2015, 15:58
I considered the Mariposa as well but went with the Circuit because of symmetry and color choice.
Should be here tomorrow. :-)

Namtrag
08-06-2015, 16:26
I considered the Mariposa as well but went with the Circuit because of symmetry and color choice.
Should be here tomorrow. :-)

Sounds great! I will be ordering my new pack once I get some cash saved up.

I wish the SMD Fusion had more reviews, it looks like a decent pack. I think the former owner of ULA designed it.

scrabbler
08-06-2015, 20:01
31415

Here is a pic of my pack from about a year ago. I remember it was a pretty long trip in Grayson Highlands, so I am guessing I had total pack weight of about 30. I am 5'8" and 200lbs, so am pretty stout around the chest and midsection...I just feel like the pack straps aren't quite long enough or thick enough to be comfortable. Like those two little candy bar pockets on the front of the shoulder straps. I am pretty sure they are supposed to be 9-12" further down in front than they are. lol

To me, it looks like the pack is riding 2-3" below where it should. I thing the bottom of the hip belt is at my waist.


Maybe my problem on my recent trip was the fact that my tent was soaking wet, as were most of my clothes. I bet I was pushing upper 30's to 40 lbs until the food got down a bit.

Yeah that looks a little wonky to me. I have an Exos and the pouches on the straps are quite a bit lower, and the belt sits lower on my hips. It doesnt appear this way in the pics, but I wonder if you have a smaller torso? But you said it measures out ok. I dont know, but for sure it looks like it sits on the small side to me. Maybe the load lifter straps are too snug?

Mountain Wildman
08-07-2015, 03:09
Sounds great! I will be ordering my new pack once I get some cash saved up.

I wish the SMD Fusion had more reviews, it looks like a decent pack. I think the former owner of ULA designed it.

I researched the Fusion, Circuit, Mariposa and ZPacks as well as a few others and all of them had some bad reviews except for the Circuit.
The Circuit most certainly had the most reviews and they were predominantly good. I almost went with the ZPacks Arc Haul but the more affordable Circuit was my choice.

Namtrag
08-20-2015, 12:35
SMD is selling off their remaining stock of Fusion 50's and 65's...$100 and $110, respectively. I think they are coming out with a new version.

I can't find out much about them, but the reviews say the fit can be dialed in really well. I do see some people saying the shoulder straps are too short, which could be problematic for me because of my thick shoulders.

Anyway, it's hard to decide what to do...get one of these packs at a great price, or get a Circuit for twice the price.

Namtrag
08-24-2015, 13:37
I lengthened my torso and tried the Talon this weekend, and it still rode badly, even with only 25 lbs in it.

I went ahead and ordered the Fusion 65 for $110. Hopefully it will work better for me!

Just Bill
08-24-2015, 15:30
At least you gave it a shot on the talon, and hopefully learned a bit in the process.
Only tricky thing I saw with the Fusion is that it's a no-return deal as it's a closeout... but worth a shot perhaps.
Did you get a chance to hit an REI first? Other than that... best of luck!

Namtrag
08-24-2015, 16:08
At least you gave it a shot on the talon, and hopefully learned a bit in the process.
Only tricky thing I saw with the Fusion is that it's a no-return deal as it's a closeout... but worth a shot perhaps.
Did you get a chance to hit an REI first? Other than that... best of luck!

REI is a long drive, so I didn't check them out. I am hoping the unique way the fusion can be adjusted will help a lot. Plus I got the large hip belt so it at least will be much more comfortable around my ample mid section!

I have figured out though that my iliac crest is higher up than my navel, which is odd, because I have never seen a guy on the trail with his hip belt up that high!!!

Just Bill
08-24-2015, 16:51
You could have a tilted pelvis, or other (fairly common) low back conditions you aren't aware of.
I developed scoliosis from carpentry work, so you don't even have to be "born" with a problem to have one.

At least you're learning, ultimately we're all a bit different and we either have to learn our needs or "overbuy" a bomber comfy pack to bridge the gap.
It is what it is, for some the extra pound/$100 is worth all the headaches to sort it out; I'm thinking at this point you're feeling pretty sympathetic towards that group. :D

Namtrag
08-31-2015, 16:18
Thanks for all your advice Bill. It's been a great learning experience for me.

I received my Six Moon Designs Fusion 65 the other day...it's orangish and white.

The color is not as hideous as I thought it would be. I wouldn't pick it, but it doesn't bother me much. One guy on backpacking light dyed his, and it's a pretty dark blue and black now, but I am not sure I have the courage to try and dye it...it's Robic and I hear that doesn't hold dye well.

The pack is way more roomy than I was expecting. I had read that it's a nominal 65, but really more like a 50 liter, I had a BV 450 in it with no problem. The side pockets seemed ok, just would be nice if they were deeper and stretchier. The front pocket is as roomy as my Talon, but it would have been better in all mesh. The shoulder straps and hip belt are 1000% better than my Talon. I am a little bit stocky, and the Talon has skinny straps which are not comfortable. The Fusion has nice wide straps.

I am not sure I understand how the torso adjustment works. There are three slots, L, M and S, and you can push the harness velcro section into each of these. The velcro section of the harness looks to be about 4" long. If you bottom it out in each of the slots, what do you reckon the torso length is for S, M, and L? The description says the regular harness fits 17-21" torsos. Mine measures 19", but the pack fits and feels best set on large with the velcro strip bottomed out.

The sternum strap really sucks. It's way too small. I only have a 42" chest and it barely snaps. If I could move it up into the next opening it might work better, but the ends will not pull back through the clips to do so.

The pack sits best on me when on large, the harness assembly actually meets my upper back and shoulders better that way. It's hard to picture whether everything is set right because the shoulder straps don't go back and attach to the pack, they go over and down pretty far. But large felt best.

The gap between the body of the pack and my neck/upper back is much farther than I am used to seeing with my Talon. I have to pull the load lifters pretty far to get it closer, but even then it still has a pretty large gap. Is this where the process of bending the stays might help?

I attached a piece of shock cord across the side of the pack on both sides. On one side, I am going to use it to hold my tent in place from falling out of the pocket. Since there isn't a pouch in the pack for keys and wallet, I bought a really lightweight Lewis & Clark mesh zipper pouch from TJ Max and attached it with safety pins to the top inside of the pack body. It flips up and over, so won't be in the way at all.

Still haven't tried bending the stays as I am not sure of the process, but I can say the pack rides pretty comfortably with 30lbs in it. Not sure if this is good or not, but almost all the weight feels like its dead center on my lower back at the hip belt level, and almost no weight on my shoulders.

Namtrag
09-21-2015, 15:18
I am not sure how many they have left, but I will do my mini-review for others to read in case they might want to try to get one before they run out...

I took my 1st generation Fusion 65 on its maiden voyage over the weekend to Dolly Sods.

It had so much room that I actually carried our Bear Vault 450 so that the pack would be full and it wouldn't be funny looking on my back. It fit easily. I put my tent in the side pocket, and the shock cord my wife added on that side was really helpful in holding it in place. I ended up with a total pack weight of 24.7 lbs, including two 20ish ounce bottles of water, and our food in the BV450.

The pack carried great, no shoulder soreness at all. The weight felt centered in the small of my back with a little weight felt on the sides of my hips, and somewhat of a tug where the sternum strap crosses my chest.

I did have a little trouble keeping the hipbelt up on its original spot, which was where my Iliac crest was an inch or so below the top of the hipbelt. It slipped down some to where the iliac crest was just above the top of the hipbelt... If anyone knows, does this mean I just need to tighten the shoulder straps, or is the pack too long, and just needs to be shortened a bit?

All in all, it has been the most comfortable pack I have had! I have only had 2 other packs though, an Osprey Volt, and an Osprey Talon 44, so I don't have a lot of experience with packs!

Edit to attach the one pic taken this weekend...we have our Friday dinner (half a sub from Sheetz) attached in the Sheetz bag with a carabiner lol

egilbe
09-21-2015, 19:16
Sounds like you have it sorted out. I'm still fiddling around with mine so it sits right. Your torso looks shorter than mine since your load lifter straps look to be the optimal height. Mine are almost level, so pretty useless. I like my hip belt top to just fit over my iliac crest. Rides more comfortable on me. I can see why you think the sternum strap is too tight. On you, it is :D

Namtrag
09-21-2015, 19:55
Yeah. I can pull the sternum strap about 1" before it feels tight.

A suggestion on the fit if you haven't done yet: Take out the black strip with the stay in it. Have some one hold it against your back and see if it is curved enough. If it needs adjusting, have them bend over their knee gently and recheck. It did wonders for me when my wife helped with this.

Sent from my KFTHWI using Tapatalk