New safer & easier bear-bag hanging method

[nsherry61]

The Puzzler’s Tree-safe Bear-bag Hang


This morning (7/23/15), I was reading the forums on WhiteBlaze.net and came across a thread about Florida’s state parks requiring 2” wide straps for protecting trees when hanging hamocks.


That got me thinking. The damage done to trees from a standard 1” hammock suspension strap pales in comparison the the damage done to tree branches when we hang bear bags using the PCT method.


Using the popular PCT bear-bag hanging method, the cord saws through the bark of a tree branch over and over again with two times the food-bag weight pulling down on it every time it is raised. NOT GOOD!


I propose the following bear-bag hanging method as an advantageous alternative to the PCT method. The method I describe below eliminates the weighted sawing of the tree bark when raising the bear-bag while reducing the effort required to lift the bag by a factor of two. Also, you can use smaller cord for hanging because it is not increasing damage to the tree nor cutting up your hands because the bag is raised with a 2:1 leverage advantage.


The Puzzler’s Tree-safe Bear-bag Hang


Supplies needed:


50’ or more of small cordage

2 carabiners - They can be small as they only need to support twice the weight of your bag.

2 feet of webbing material - 1 inch wide should be ample

Tube of seam sealant or contact cement

The bear-bag of your choosing



Assembling the haul system:


Tie a loop in both ends of the strap - the loops only have to be big enough to put the carabiner through.

Put a series of sealant or glue drops across both sides of the strap and let them dry to creating rubbery dots to provide friction between the strap and the tree branch

Put one of the carabines through the loop on one end of the strap

Tie one end of your haul line through the loop on the other end of the strap
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Close your bear-bag and attach the second carabiner to it like in the PCT method

Throw your cord over the tree branch of your choice, just like the PCT method
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Slip a loop of the cord through the carabiner on the bag and hook it into the carabiner attached to the strap
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Leaving the bag on the ground, pull on the haul cord to raise the strap end of the haul system (with the cord looped through the carabiner) up to and across the tree branch.
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Now, pull the loose end of the cord to raise the bear-bag up to the branch.
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Secure a stick to the haul cord exactly like the PCT method

Lower the bear-bag back down until the stick contacts and holds against the carabiner on the bear-bag.
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Sleep peacefully

When lowering the bear-bag, pull the cord until you can reach and remove the stick, then lower the bag. It’s done exactly like the PCT method.


In building this system this afternoon, I found that very small cord is fine from the standpoint of hand damage when hauling, but the mason’s twine was not strong enough to lift my 25 lb bag without eventually breaking.
I was also surprised at how easy this was to rig up and use. It's great having only half the weight pulling on you while you are trying to tie in the stick or remove it.

[Captain Blue]

Why the tiny photos? It would be easier to understand your new method if the photos were a bit larger.

[nsherry61]

I'm so sorry about the images. Here, I'll try again.

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These are images of the complete bag hoist system although the mason's twine broke when trying to hoist my 25 lb bag, so I am now using slightly stronger cord.

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Just like the PCT hang, you start by throwing the cord over the tree branch.
I didn't have to use a rock, the webbing and carabiner were heavy enough to work in this case.

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With the strap end dangling, nearby, pull a loop of cord through the carabiner on the bag.

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And hook the loop you just pulled through the carabiner on the bag onto the carabiner on the strap.
In this photo, I am holding the cord that is running between the top of the tree branch and the carabiner on the bag. If you were to follow the cord going up from the strap, at this point, you would see it go up over the branch, down to my hand, through the carabiner on the bag, up through the carabiner on the strap, back through the carabiner on the bag and then onto a pile on the ground.

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In this photo, I have now pulled down on the cord I am holding in the previous image and thus lifted the strap up and across the tree branch.
In the second photo, I have moved my hand to the tail of the cord that I will pull on to hoist the pack.
The hoist is rigged and ready to lift. Now, if you follow the cord from the loose end I am holding, which is the end you will pull on to lift the bag, the cord goes through the bag carabiner (just like the PCT method) up to the carabiner on the strap at the branch, back down through the bag carabiner and back up to the other side of the strap on the branch.

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Here is the bag hoisted and locked into place with the little stick, just like the PCT method.
Not, the blue cord because the mason's twine broke during the first lift of the 25 lb bag.
It's really nice having the 2:1 leverage of this hoist when lifting heaver bags. This 25 lbs was really quite easy.

Again, I'm sorry about the pictures.
This really needs a diagram and a video.
Trying to describe it is terribly complicated.
The diagram I have sketched is frankly confusing, BUT, the actually process is really very simple.

[nsherry61]

Here is a diagram of the bear-bag hoist system in case that makes it a bit more clear.
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[Another Kevin]

If I understand what you're saying, this seems like a very nice method to avoid chafing the tree branch. (550 paracord doesn't seem to do that much damage, but the UHMWPE cord that a lot of hikers are switching to is like a saw blade!) It also gives a 2:1 mechanincal advantage when hoisting the bag because the second 'biner functions as a moving pulley.

The disadvantage is that it needs half again the length of cordage. I know that one night a couple of weeks ago I would up finding a perfect branch that was a little bit higher up than I'd usually have used. (And amzed myself by hooking the branch on the first cast - that never happens!) Starting a conventional PCT hang needed virtually every inch of my 50 feet of paracord - that is, the branch was roughly 25 feet up. If I were to use your method, I'd need 75 feet of cord for the same branch, right? 25 feet from hand to the 'biner on the strap, 25 feet from the 'biner on the strap to the 'biner on the bag, and 25 feet from the 'biner on the bag back up to the strap again. That's not a showstopper, but you really should point it out. Life is full of tradeoffs.

[Captain Blue]

This looks very useful for group hikes where you are hanging multiple food bags on one line. There tends to be a lot of rope-on-tree friction with multiple food bags even with 550 paracord. Thanks for the higher res photos and diagram. It is much easier to understand now. Does the strap tend to stay in place?

[nsherry61]

Excellent points and all spot on.

Yes, it has the downside of needing 30% more cord length for the same height hang - only an issue when hanging at maximum height of course.
And yes, the strap has more weight on the carabiner side when being hauled up, so it will tend to pull off the branch if the bark is smooth and there is no added friction material on the strap. With the glue or other rubbery spots on the strap is stays put just fine. And, once the bag is hoisted, the strap stays put fine. I've used a similar method without the strap in the past and found that a series of knots in the para cord where it went over the tree worked just fine also for added friction.

There are also a couple other points worth making.
1) Since the hoist ratio is 2:1, the bag only drops back down from the branch 1/2 as far after tying in the stick, so you don't have to reach as aukwardly high to tie the stick in when you are worried about the bag comming back down too close to the ground with the PCT method.
2) As noted above, it is also a lot easier to tie the stick in and get it out again with only 1/2 the food bag weight pulling against you in the process.

3) If you promise not to get confused with yet more details, there is another really cool trick that can be used with this method.
There is a less-than-ideal "alternate PCT method" that enables a bag to be pulled away from a tree horizontally.
Using this method, you can pull the bag away from the tree without any less-than-idea sacrifices.
You do everything else exactly the same as above, but then tie the loose end of the line to the carabiner on the bag, before the bag is hoisted up.
After the bag is hoisted up and the stick locked against the bag carabiner, you can now grab the excess cord (the part tied to the bag carabiner, not the part tied to the stick), and use it to pull the bag away from the tree. Here the extra 30% of cord length can come in handy.

[shakey_snake]

Bear here.

*Taking notes*

[nsherry61]

Incidentally, because I've always carried 50' of para cord, I've never used more than 50' of cord when using this type of hanging method in the past. It would certainly open up more really high branches as options for hangs if I added some more length to my system. Hmm.

[nsherry61]

I found the closest I could get, so far, to the original source of the underlying bear-bag hanging method (http://www.downworks.com/downworks/Bear_Hitch.html). Maybe the method I describe above would best be described as the "Tree-safe Modified Skilman Method", although I think the person's last name may really me Skillman with two els instead of one.

The primary differences between the Skilman method (http://www.downworks.com/downworks/Bear_Hitch.html) and what I am promoting above are:

1) I use a strap where the cord goes over the tree branch.
2) I am rigging the hoist by simply passing a loop through the bag carabiner and over the strap carabiner instead of trying to figure it out in a more analytical way.
3) The tail (loose) end of the cord my hoist passes back through the bag carabiner providing less drop-back on the bag after tying in the stick.
4) I am suggesting that the loose tail of the hoist can be attached to the bag carabiner before hoisting to enable pulling the bag away from the tree.

[Malto]

hauling a heavy bag up a hang can be next to I possible with something like the MLD Bear hang system. This system could be rather interesting. I love getting the perfect hang. this is a photo of one of my best in the Sierra. I was actually hoping to see a bear make an attempt at this.

[Malto]

What about two small pullies?

[nsherry61]

Pullies would work better than carabines, but they weigh more and carabines work quite well. Pullies are also cord diameter specific, and I don't know what pullies might be available for the size cord most of us use.

[texasmufflerman]

nsherry61, your method is a great idea. Thank you for sharing it.

I was playing with it a little bit and I came up with what I feel is a viable alternative to the webbing. By tying an extra cord to the top carabiner before tossing it over the limb, you have something that can be used to stop the carabiner from slipping down, even on the smoothest of bark. Easy way if you are solo would be to just step on the extra cord just before hoisting the bag, (maybe wrap it once around your foot and then step on it). The extra cord doesn't even need to be a separate piece. A single piece of cord could be tied to the carabiner such that 2/3 to 3/4 of the cord would serve as the existing system in yoru method and the remaining 1/3 to 1/4 of the cord would serve as the extra piece.

I realize this means there is even more cord to carry, but if zing-it 1.75mm is used, you have a breaking strength of 500 lbs and this stuff weighs just under 2 oz per 100 ft. This means an extra .5 oz would be needed. I'll bet any of us are carrying more weight than that in sweat on the trail. And with the elimination of the webbing, I'd be willing to bet that there was a net savings in weight.

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[Kaptainkriz]

I'm a sailor as well as a hiker. Lightweight and low friction, there are plenty of blocks to choose from. Annapolis Performance Sailing has a superior selection of lightweight high tech line as well as block hardware:
http://www.apsltd.com/micro-single.html


Pullies would work better than carabines, but they weigh more and carabines work quite well. Pullies are also cord diameter specific, and I don't know what pullies might be available for the size cord most of us use.

[Kaptainkriz]

http://www.apsltd.com/amsteel-blue-7-64-in-2-75mm.html

I'm a sailor as well as a hiker. Lightweight and low friction, there are plenty of blocks to choose from. Annapolis Performance Sailing has a superior selection of lightweight high tech line as well as block hardware:
http://www.apsltd.com/micro-single.html

[ChuckT]

Interesting. Sheave + Amsteel + 2' strap + carabiner + found stick.
And isn't there some heavier cord that's hollow? So you could weave the Amsteel through a short length (would it stay in place?) and not need the glue buttons?

[texasmufflerman]

It seems that my attachment did not make it. I'll try again.
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[texasmufflerman]

http://www.apsltd.com/amsteel-blue-7-64-in-2-75mm.html

Amsteel 7/64 is very popular for hanging a hammock, but I understand there is concern for the added weight of extra length of cord in The Puzzler’s Tree-safe Bear-bag Hang. That is where the 1.75mm comes in. 550 Type III cord weighs 7 oz per 100 ft, Amsteel 7/16 weighs 6.5 oz per 100 ft, but the Zing-It 1.75mm weighs only 2 oz per 100 ft.

Here is the Zing-It:
http://www.samsonrope.com/Pages/Product.aspx?ProductID=811
http://www.reddenmarine.com/samson-rope-zing-it.html


Interesting. Sheave + Amsteel + 2' strap + carabiner + found stick.
And isn't there some heavier cord that's hollow? So you could weave the Amsteel through a short length (would it stay in place?) and not need the glue buttons?

the sheath of 550 cord might work but I might be concerned that it would bind like a chinese finger cuff and . Maybe 1/2 inch tubular webbing might be a better candidate for that, but then again, I am trying to eliminate the webbing altogether.


I'm a sailor as well as a hiker. Lightweight and low friction, there are plenty of blocks to choose from. Annapolis Performance Sailing has a superior selection of lightweight high tech line as well as block hardware:
http://www.apsltd.com/micro-single.html

1/2 oz block with 1200 lb breaking strength for about $10. Very nice!

[ChuckT]

"Eliminate the webbing" would be ideal hence my suggestion of using hollow cord as a sheath.

[texasmufflerman]

"Eliminate the webbing" would be ideal hence my suggestion of using hollow cord as a sheath.

I presume the sheath would be used on the standard PCT method rather than with The Puzzler’s Tree-safe Bear-bag Hang, right?

[Cuacoatchoo]

Feels like we're overdesigning a simple system.

Hammocks support ~180 lbs compared to 10 lbs.
Hammocks go around the lower trunk of the tree. A critical artery of the plants circulatory system. The capillaries around the outside of the trunk are the most important. Up High the new growth branches are likely to be less dependent on the their outer ring of capillaries, as well as not affect the overall tree if they loose capillaries.

Also, personal opinion, the branches you selected in these photos are too big for bear bags. A cub could easily monkey his way out to it. I'd personally go smaller branches farther from the trunk. Of course I live in the land of Oaks and dogwoods so we have plenty of branches.

[Kaptainkriz]

i'm liking that line....gotta get some and play with it! I'm thinking of splicing it to an Antal ring:
http://www.apsltd.com/antal-7mm-low-friction-ring.html





Here is the Zing-It:
http://www.samsonrope.com/Pages/Product.aspx?ProductID=811
http://www.reddenmarine.com/samson-rope-zing-it.html

[Kaptainkriz]

Bummer, website says not splicable. Guess a knot will have to do. :)


i'm liking that line....gotta get some and play with it! I'm thinking of splicing it to an Antal ring:
http://www.apsltd.com/antal-7mm-low-friction-ring.html

[texasmufflerman]

Bummer, website says not splicable. Guess a knot will have to do. :)

I have seen some folks talking about splicing the zing-it and lash-it, but I wonder how well it holds with the samthane coating. It will be something that you may have to try and see. I plan on purchasing some soon and i will be playing with it as well.

Here are some other throw lines that I found, most are coated. I can't tell if any of them are not.
http://www.wesspur.com/throw-line/zing-it-throw-line.html

[texasmufflerman]

Feels like we're overdesigning a simple system.

Hammocks support ~180 lbs compared to 10 lbs.
Hammocks go around the lower trunk of the tree. A critical artery of the plants circulatory system. The capillaries around the outside of the trunk are the most important. Up High the new growth branches are likely to be less dependent on the their outer ring of capillaries, as well as not affect the overall tree if they loose capillaries.

Also, personal opinion, the branches you selected in these photos are too big for bear bags. A cub could easily monkey his way out to it. I'd personally go smaller branches farther from the trunk. Of course I live in the land of Oaks and dogwoods so we have plenty of branches.

Unlike the hammock application, is not simply the weight of the bear bag that is a concern, it is the friction of dragging 20 feet of loaded cord across the tree branch. you['d be surprised what friction can do. I pull audio, video, and data cabling as part of my job. If I drag a cable across another cable for 20 feet, it doesn't take much to burn through the jacket of the cable that is being pulled against.

[Heliotrope]

Looking forward to trying this method!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kaptainkriz]

I ordered some 1.75mm Yale Ultrex 12 and a pair of Antal 7mm rings to splice up. I'll post some photos after I finish it. :cool:


I have seen some folks talking about splicing the zing-it and lash-it, but I wonder how well it holds with the samthane coating. It will be something that you may have to try and see. I plan on purchasing some soon and i will be playing with it as well.

Here are some other throw lines that I found, most are coated. I can't tell if any of them are not.
http://www.wesspur.com/throw-line/zing-it-throw-line.html

[texasmufflerman]

"Eliminate the webbing" would be ideal hence my suggestion of using hollow cord as a sheath.

New idea, a foot of surgical tubing!

[texasmufflerman]

I ordered some 1.75mm Yale Ultrex 12 and a pair of Antal 7mm rings to splice up. I'll post some photos after I finish it. :cool:

Where did you get the Yale Ultrex and how did you come to that decision? Looking forward to seeing your results.

[Kaptainkriz]

Ultrex was at Annapolis Performance Sailing, I buy a lot of sailboat gear from them, I sail/race on the Chesapeake Bay. It's a 12 strand, so it's splicable...I'll find out how easy when it arrives, I've never done 1.75 before. It's 50g/100', a little lighter than the Samson zing-it. Normally .37 a foot, they are running their 25% off winter rigging sale. :)

Where did you get the Yale Ultrex and how did you come to that decision? Looking forward to seeing your results.

[Kaptainkriz]

Surgical tubing may be a good idea. I tried this with naked line and with a few knots. It's tricky to get the top part to stay up on the branch when you pull it up. I ended up using a piece of soft tubing I had laying around just to prototype...it worked well enough to see that with 2:1 you can get a higher hang than with the straight PCT method and can lift heavier objects more easily. There is a risk if you have a 'senior' moment and rig it incorrectly, you will permanently affix one end out of reach in the tree!! (don't ask me how I discovered this... :( ). The Yale Ultrex 12 (1.75mm SK-75) is easy to splice using standard 12 strand methods. I used brummel lock loops on each end and loped around the Antal rings. The Antal rings are rated to 1700lbs SWL and the Ultrex is rated at 800lbs break. 80' of line, brummels on each end, a pair of 7mm Antal rings, and a slice of the line taken for a continuous loop shackle was only 45g. That's about half the weight of 50' of 550 paracord I was using. I used a folded guitar 'e' string as a fid for splicing small line. :)
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New idea, a foot of surgical tubing!

[squeezebox]

I'm interested but I'm sorry I still can't figure it out. It doesn't look that difficult Any chance someone could do a youtube on this?

[Kaptainkriz]

I'm clearly not a good instructor and the video has a lot to be desired. :) It does show the basics of the method and maybe some potential issues.
The picture posted earlier does a good job showing how to do it: http://www.downworks.com/downworks/Bear_Hitch.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uGxu6ZCQQM

[texasmufflerman]

Good stuff, Kaptainkriz. Thanks for sharing. About spliceability, are 8 strand typically not spliceable or is it something else?

[jbix1958]

Try rappel rings - half the price of the Antal and rope glides through easily.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BS4FEO8/ref=s9_hps_bw_g200_i2

(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BS4FEO8/ref=s9_hps_bw_g200_i2)

[Hangfire]

Cool, I like it.

[Kaptainkriz]

Oo, I seem to have missed the activity in the thread!
@texasmufflerman, 12 strand splices with known methods and little loss of strength. I've never tried to splice 8 strand before. If it is a hollow braid, it might splice but not sure how well it holds.
@jbix1958, I've not seen those before, they look cool! A feature of the Antal, though not used here, is it has two bearing surfaces (around the perimiter and through the center) which can be used creatively. :)

[Kaptainkriz]

I still like them and think they are cool, but they do weigh 10x what the Antals do for gram weenies that are counting. :)



Try rappel rings - half the price of the Antal and rope glides through easily.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BS4FEO8/ref=s9_hps_bw_g200_i2

(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BS4FEO8/ref=s9_hps_bw_g200_i2)

[dgoggins]

So....I've been playing around with this system....and learning some of the pitfalls. One pitfall not mentioned...is that if you are using the webbing and a PCT style system, it is possible to get your food stuck in the tree. Fortunately I was practicing at home and quickly saw the danger.

In the morning....when going to retrieve the food bag, you start pulling down on your haul rope so you can bring the jam stick to you. However....if at this time the webbing slips off the tree...it will start traveling down towards the food bag. When that top carabiner moves down....the jam stick "height" moves up. So...if the night before you had already put the jamstick high above your head and did the clove hitch, you can get to a point where you can't reach your jam stick.

Worst case scenario....the top carabiner/webbing moves all the way down to the carabiner at the food bag...at this point, the jam stick is also right at the food bag, and...you can't pull down on the rope at all. True, the food bag is now lower, but still out of reach most likely. By my calculations...which I could be wrong...if the food bag was 6' down from the tree branch, it would now be 9'....but...could still be out of your reach.

That is why....I think the second rope vs the webbing is a much better idea. There is a good diagram of it here ->
http://www.trailspace.com/forums/backcountry/topics/117048.html

First....if you do forget to attach the thin rope (which is attached to the top carabiner) to a branch or the tree trunk (so the top carabiner doesn't move), the top carabiner will move down. However...unlike the webbing...you could just pull it back into place. You are not pulling the weight of the food bag up....you are just pulling enough to overcome the friction of the system (friction of tree branch and rope passing through 2 carabiners). You can use a really thin rope.... .5oz for 50'....and you don't even need 50'. 40' should be more than plenty. Also....its more multi use over webbing....you can use it during the day for something else...or....do a different hang with it. (like...do a normal PCT hang and then use this rope to pull the bag away from the tree). Or there are plenty of other hang types that use 2 ropes. Or....its a backup rope. If one of your ropes break, you could still do a normal PCT hang with the other. The webbing would only be 1 use.

[cmoulder]

To update this thread, I recently tried an easy modification that worked to keep the top webbing in place on the tree branch. Here is a photo of my version of this setup with 7mm Antal rings as suggested by Kaptainkriz — they work extremely well and are simple and lightweight.

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The only problem is that there wasn't enough friction between the webbing and tree branch, and no matter how delicately the food bags were hoisted the webbing slipped off the branch. The simple modification was to put some blobs of Shoe Goo on the webbing, on both sides, to add a little friction to the system.

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After taking this photo, I decided to add more blobs in between these, so that they ended up about 1" apart.

Two friends and I used this recently on the Grafton Loop Trail in Maine (at the campsites that did not have bear boxes) and it worked extremely well. One night we just tied the cord off to a tree and one night we used the 'stick-on-a-clove-hitch' for the modified PCT hang. This system really is superb for heavy hangs! :)

[Kaptainkriz]

I like the goo idea. I'm still using a piece of sticky fish tank tube on mine. :)


To update this thread, I recently tried an easy modification that worked to keep the top webbing in place on the tree branch. Here is a photo of my version of this setup with 7mm Antal rings as suggested by Kaptainkriz — they work extremely well and are simple and lightweight.

The only problem is that there wasn't enough friction between the webbing and tree branch, and no matter how delicately the food bags were hoisted the webbing slipped off the branch. The simple modification was to put some blobs of Shoe Goo on the webbing, on both sides, to add a little friction to the system.

After taking this photo, I decided to add more blobs in between these, so that they ended up about 1" apart.

Two friends and I used this recently on the Grafton Loop Trail in Maine (at the campsites that did not have bear boxes) and it worked extremely well. One night we just tied the cord off to a tree and one night we used the 'stick-on-a-clove-hitch' for the modified PCT hang. This system really is superb for heavy hangs! :)

[dgoggins]

So, after practicing a fair bit on this method at home, and thinking I had it down, I had quite a bit of trouble out in the field on the first night of a 3 night trip. I had made a webbing strip, but like in my post above, I was worried about it slipping so I did the 2 string method.

The problem I was having....was tangling. Mainly with my thinner "leading line" ....it would tangle with itself or ...it would get twisted with the other lines. And, it was hard in dying light to keep track of all the lines. At any given point there are like...4-5 lines going up to the branch that you have to manage.

I eventually ended up getting 12' or so of leading line and a carabiner stuck up in the branch...due to a big tangle of my leading line. I think if I used zpacks 1.2mm slick line for my leading it wouldn't have happened, but, I assume I still would have gotten lines twisting together. That night I eventually just did the same as my hiking partner. He just threw a single line, tied it to his food sack, lifted the sack high above his head, and then walked the pull line out and away from the branch at an angle to hoist the rest of the couple of feet, and tied to a tree. We weren't in sensitive bear protection areas so I wasn't too worried about it. The simplicity and ease of it...was..hard to beat.

But I am willing to try again. A few questions:
1. Are you just using standard smooth silicone fish tubing? Did you cut it or...just tie your guyline to it? Could you upload a pic?
2. On my setup, I was just using 2 standard carabiners...like the zpacks mini carabiners -> http://zpacks.com/accessories/carabiner.shtml
Now, both carabiners are completely rounded (they are tubes), so I assumed that they would have similar friction compared to the 7mm antal rings. How wrong am I on that?
3. @cmoulder Where did you get your two rings? I'm trying to find the cheapest way of getting 2 to try out....most places after shipping they are coming to $32-$35.

I may just go back to a webbing form instead of using 2 ropes. If I do the non PCT method and just tie the haul loop to a different tree, then I wouldn't have to worry about the webbing slipping when retrieving the food bag...would require a bit longer rope though.

I did learn...that I do like using a rock bag instead of wrapping/tying a rope to a rock. I had a zpacks rock bag that I have never used...and, I'm glad I haven't yet. I made a Tyvek bag and ...it would basically get a tear in it with each throw when it hit the ground. I would hate to do that to anything cuben. Tyvek is super easy to make stuff sacks out of. Here I even sewed a drawstring channel, though next time I would just "tape" one together. And, when it tears due to the bag hitting the ground, just put another piece of Tyvek tape on it.

https://i.imgur.com/rRHoKZJ.jpg

[cmoulder]

7mm Antal rings (http://www.apsltd.com/antal-7mm-low-friction-ring.html)

They ain't cheep! :o Maybe you can google around and do better. I searched a fair bit and with shipping they were all similar... right in the range you mentioned. However I believe these are FAR superior to mini-biners and you only gotta buy 'em once!

The line I use is Lawson's Ultraglide bear line (http://lawsonequipment.com/Ultraglide-Bear-Line-Reflective-p1073.html).

I also noticed a tendency for the line to get twisted around itself. However with the slick line it slid past itself even with 5-6 wraps without the friction between the lines overcoming that of the friction between web and branch. I tested this specifically but even so it is still going to be highly subjective depending upon the branch diameter, tree species, etc. In both cases when we used it the trees were beech and the branches were about 3-4" in diameter. YMMV

The most we hoisted was about 12 lbs or so and this setup made it pretty easy... would've been very difficult with a single line of 1.8-2mm of anything else.

[Kaptainkriz]

Standard vinyl fish tank tube with the line threaded through it. I'm using a small knot to keep it from sliding down. 2nd pic in this post: https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/112951-New-safer-amp-easier-bear-bag-hanging-method?p=2038067&viewfull=1#post2038067


1. Are you just using standard smooth silicone fish tubing? Did you cut it or...just tie your guyline to it? Could you upload a pic?

[dgoggins]

I saw that picture before....I didn't notice the tubing (it is clear after all). Thanks for that.

Hmm, there are several sellers that will provide free shipping for $50...otherwise its $10 or more. Would anybody be interested if I did a group buy and then send them to you for $2 shipping instead?

[cmoulder]

I don't need 'em now, otherwise I'd jump on that group buy!

Probably sounds kinda ridiculous to the 'uninitiated' that a bear bag setup can cost around $50. But for those who have grappled with the problem it is money well spent.

The next logical step is to look for a cheaper alternative (that is light and works just as well!) to the Antal rings, although they're gonna be hard to beat.

[dgoggins]

Edit: Nevermind..it only saved 2-3 bucks to do a group buy so just bought separately.

[saltysack]

So, after practicing a fair bit on this method at home, and thinking I had it down, I had quite a bit of trouble out in the field on the first night of a 3 night trip. I had made a webbing strip, but like in my post above, I was worried about it slipping so I did the 2 string method.

The problem I was having....was tangling. Mainly with my thinner "leading line" ....it would tangle with itself or ...it would get twisted with the other lines. And, it was hard in dying light to keep track of all the lines. At any given point there are like...4-5 lines going up to the branch that you have to manage.

I eventually ended up getting 12' or so of leading line and a carabiner stuck up in the branch...due to a big tangle of my leading line. I think if I used zpacks 1.2mm slick line for my leading it wouldn't have happened, but, I assume I still would have gotten lines twisting together. That night I eventually just did the same as my hiking partner. He just threw a single line, tied it to his food sack, lifted the sack high above his head, and then walked the pull line out and away from the branch at an angle to hoist the rest of the couple of feet, and tied to a tree. We weren't in sensitive bear protection areas so I wasn't too worried about it. The simplicity and ease of it...was..hard to beat.

But I am willing to try again. A few questions:
1. Are you just using standard smooth silicone fish tubing? Did you cut it or...just tie your guyline to it? Could you upload a pic?
2. On my setup, I was just using 2 standard carabiners...like the zpacks mini carabiners -> http://zpacks.com/accessories/carabiner.shtml
Now, both carabiners are completely rounded (they are tubes), so I assumed that they would have similar friction compared to the 7mm antal rings. How wrong am I on that?
3. @cmoulder Where did you get your two rings? I'm trying to find the cheapest way of getting 2 to try out....most places after shipping they are coming to $32-$35.

I may just go back to a webbing form instead of using 2 ropes. If I do the non PCT method and just tie the haul loop to a different tree, then I wouldn't have to worry about the webbing slipping when retrieving the food bag...would require a bit longer rope though.

I did learn...that I do like using a rock bag instead of wrapping/tying a rope to a rock. I had a zpacks rock bag that I have never used...and, I'm glad I haven't yet. I made a Tyvek bag and ...it would basically get a tear in it with each throw when it hit the ground. I would hate to do that to anything cuben. Tyvek is super easy to make stuff sacks out of. Here I even sewed a drawstring channel, though next time I would just "tape" one together. And, when it tears due to the bag hitting the ground, just put another piece of Tyvek tape on it.

https://i.imgur.com/rRHoKZJ.jpg

Simply use one of your 20oz Gatorade bottles with lil water...works fine..no need for a rock bag..


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[Venchka]

Oh great. Now I have to add a 20 oz Gatorade bottle to all the other stuff I'm carrying. [emoji106][emoji1][emoji41]
Forget about keeping the food away from the bears. Make sure you are sleeping behind a moose proof barrier of trees and boulders.
Wayne


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[dgoggins]

I've heard that idea before to throw water bottles instead of rocks. But...it just seems to me that a water bottle is more likely to get hung up in the tree. Plus, around here half of the ground is exposed rock, so the bottle is going to get busted up quick. But.....I still might try it.

[Venchka]

A quick easy and secure method for attaching the line to a bottle would be greatly appreciated.
Wayne


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[saltysack]

Oh great. Now I have to add a 20 oz Gatorade bottle to all the other stuff I'm carrying. [emoji106][emoji1][emoji41]
Forget about keeping the food away from the bears. Make sure you are sleeping behind a moose proof barrier of trees and boulders.
Wayne


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I carry 2 of the 20oz on shoulder straps, easier to fill w Gatorade powder and my morning concoction...not carrying anything extra.


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[RangerZ]

So, after practicing a fair bit on this method at home, and thinking I had it down, I had quite a bit of trouble out in the field on the first night of a 3 night trip. I had made a webbing strip, but like in my post above, I was worried about it slipping so I did the 2 string method.

The problem I was having....was tangling. Mainly with my thinner "leading line" ....it would tangle with itself or ...it would get twisted with the other lines. And, it was hard in dying light to keep track of all the lines. At any given point there are like...4-5 lines going up to the branch that you have to manage.

I eventually ended up getting 12' or so of leading line and a carabiner stuck up in the branch...due to a big tangle of my leading line. I think if I used zpacks 1.2mm slick line for my leading it wouldn't have happened, but, I assume I still would have gotten lines twisting together. That night I eventually just did the same as my hiking partner. He just threw a single line, tied it to his food sack, lifted the sack high above his head, and then walked the pull line out and away from the branch at an angle to hoist the rest of the couple of feet, and tied to a tree. We weren't in sensitive bear protection areas so I wasn't too worried about it. The simplicity and ease of it...was..hard to beat.

But I am willing to try again. A few questions:
1. Are you just using standard smooth silicone fish tubing? Did you cut it or...just tie your guyline to it? Could you upload a pic?
2. On my setup, I was just using 2 standard carabiners...like the zpacks mini carabiners -> http://zpacks.com/accessories/carabiner.shtml
Now, both carabiners are completely rounded (they are tubes), so I assumed that they would have similar friction compared to the 7mm antal rings. How wrong am I on that?
3. @cmoulder Where did you get your two rings? I'm trying to find the cheapest way of getting 2 to try out....most places after shipping they are coming to $32-$35.

I may just go back to a webbing form instead of using 2 ropes. If I do the non PCT method and just tie the haul loop to a different tree, then I wouldn't have to worry about the webbing slipping when retrieving the food bag...would require a bit longer rope though.

I did learn...that I do like using a rock bag instead of wrapping/tying a rope to a rock. I had a zpacks rock bag that I have never used...and, I'm glad I haven't yet. I made a Tyvek bag and ...it would basically get a tear in it with each throw when it hit the ground. I would hate to do that to anything cuben. Tyvek is super easy to make stuff sacks out of. Here I even sewed a drawstring channel, though next time I would just "tape" one together. And, when it tears due to the bag hitting the ground, just put another piece of Tyvek tape on it.

https://i.imgur.com/rRHoKZJ.jpg

I use a mesh bag that garlic comes in. I just fold the open edge over to reinforce it and thread light cord thru the mesh as a draw string. The mesh is pretty small and it's never snagged on anything. It's also a good visibility red which makes it easier to find when I finally hang my food I've also put reflective tape on the carabiner to help find it.

My 50' of line and carabiner fit inside for storage. The mesh bag could be used as a scrubby also.

[Venchka]

I carry 2 of the 20oz on shoulder straps, easier to fill w Gatorade powder and my morning concoction...not carrying anything extra.


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I don't do Gatorade. I don't do bottles on shoulder straps.
One size doesn't fit everyone.
I had an 8 oz. Ozarka bottle that worked well. I can't find it. Need a new one.
Wayne


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[dgoggins]

A quick easy and secure method for attaching the line to a bottle would be greatly appreciated.
Wayne

No problem...the easiest would be to use a larks head knot ->
http://www.kittyhawk.com/skilled-advice/kites/tying-a-larks-head-knot/

Where the toggle in that example would be the water bottle's "head". Usually I tie a bowline at the end of my line, and then push a bend through the loop as the "larks head", but in that example...they just make a non tied loop at the end of the line which....is pretty slick. I just learned I could do that. Its great to keep learning!

[saltysack]

No problem...the easiest would be to use a larks head knot ->
http://www.kittyhawk.com/skilled-advice/kites/tying-a-larks-head-knot/

Where the toggle in that example would be the water bottle's "head". Usually I tie a bowline at the end of my line, and then push a bend through the loop as the "larks head", but in that example...they just make a non tied loop at the end of the line which....is pretty slick. I just learned I could do that. Its great to keep learning!

+1...already have a bowline at lines end for carabiner and food bag....simple....


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[dgoggins]

Ok...I tried out the larkshead where you don't tie a knot at the end, and....don't recommend it. It will slip easily. Just tie a loop and then pass a bend through it.

[Venchka]

Thanks!
Wayne


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[English Stu]

Seems a fair system so I intend to practice it.
Anyone recall this system and what it is called. I have knowledge from YouTube, which I cannot now find now, of a modified PCT method in which you carry something like a 2 inch piece of plastic plumbing pipe with two opposite holes in it which the cord passes through and when at the correct height you tie off like you do the twig. A suitable twig, like a suitable stone to throw, is often never close by.

[English Stu]

To be clear it is 1 inch pipe about 2 inch long.
How do you edit posts on here now?

[cmoulder]

As far as the name, I did some googling to try to find the origin and came to the same conclusion as Kaptainkriz did for his video: Skilman Bear Hitch

http://photos.bwca.com/s/SCOUT64-160811-160430.JPG
As for stick or pipe, or even a 2" piece of bamboo chop stick for the stopper stick... makes no difference. I never not been able to find a stick.

Things that DO make a difference are the actual line, which needs to be very slick; the pulley bits, which need to be very smooth and have a much larger radius than a mini-carabiner (the Antal rings are utterly perfect for this application); and a lot of friction in the webbing or cord that goes over the tree branch.

[Deacon]

To be clear it is 1 inch pipe about 2 inch long.
How do you edit posts on here now?

Become a donating member and you’ll be able to edit your posts.


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[gwschenk]

Some very ingenious methods here. Too bad the bears in California know the weaknesses.

[cmoulder]

Yes, no sort of hang will work where bears have learned to climb out onto the branch and attack the line from the top.

Other problems are 1) mice that have learned how to shimmy down the line; 2) flying squirrels; and 3) pine martens. Surely there are more.

Once had a hang in the Adirondacks that was over 10 ft high and at least 8 feet away from the tree trunk and a pine marten still managed to get to it. In Algonquin Provincial Park in Canada we had flying squirrels do major damage to a hang done with a pulley system.

[BuckeyeBill]

Ursack to the rescue. For protection against sharp tooth critters, get the Ursack Minor. For protection from bears go with the AllWhite. For total protection they offer the AllMitey which combines the Minor laminated to the inside an AllWhite. I have had an AllMitey since they first offered it and have not had any problems.

[cmoulder]

Ursack to the rescue. For protection against sharp tooth critters, get the Ursack Minor. For protection from bears go with the AllWhite. For total protection they offer the AllMitey which combines the Minor laminated to the inside an AllWhite. I have had an AllMitey since they first offered it and have not had any problems.

If I hiked a lot in areas where this was a regular problem, I would definitely get one of these.

Adirondacks eastern High Peaks requires bear canisters already for 3-season. The pine marten incident occurred during winter (when bear cans are not required) in the Bushnell Falls area.

[dgoggins]

Ok, I got the antal rings and was playing around a bit more with the system. I can say that the antal rings are definitely smoother and have much less friction than minibiners. I dislike the cost but they are an improvement. Only way to make them better (besides cost), would be if they had a hinge like a 'biner so I didn't have to feed the end of the rope through both rings.

Anyway, I did some experimenting. 14" of aquarium tubing weighs the same as 1" webbing with seam grip on it (.2oz), but....the strap worked quite a bit better for me.

So, tubing: If I used 2 'biners, it would start slipping immediately...it just wouldn't stay up in the branch. With antal rings...it was 50/50. It would mostly stay in place as long as I was slow and steady with pulling. But...with the webbing, it would stay in place with either 'biners or the rings.

Also....until I use the strap a lot out in the field, I won't be doing the PCT style system until I'm absolutely not worried about the strap slipping out of the branch. (see my previous posts about potentially getting food stuck in the tree). So, if I'm not doing the PCT style....you can actually tie your antal ring onto the strap with 4-6' of cord instead. The bag is supposed to hang that much down from the tree branch anyway, so there is no point in having the ring right by the branch (in the PCT style you do b/c you want to haul the bag as close to the branch as possible and then it gets lowered when you raise the stick to the ring).

This way...you gain 4-6' of rope since you are not doubling that length of rope through the pulley system. Here is a pic ....the bright green is the cord that is tied to the strap and the antal ring at the end. And..both rings "touch" each other when the bag is hauled all the way up. The haul rope is then just tied above your head to a different tree.

https://i.imgur.com/ok8iSxG.jpg

Now...its possible to pull the bag away from a tree using the PCT system but it requires a different modification (or a second rope)...there is a video somewhere on youtube about that.

Anyway...now I'm wondering what the absolute best rope to use is now that you are not worried about the rope digging in to the branch...or...rope withstanding the abrasion against the branch.

I would assume the thinnest line possible would create the least amount of friction....am I right in that? Even if I'm right....I'm not sure I would go less than 2mm line. Even with the pulley advantage, hauling up 25lbs of food could really dig into your hands with 1.2mm zpacks zline. I could always use a stick though and use that to haul it up.

So...I'm mainly looking at Zpacks zline slick cord....which is "solid braided 100% UHMWPE fiber with no sheathe". Vs...Lawson Ultraglide bear line, which is Spectra S1000. No idea which one is better. I also don't want the line to tangle easy. Really...3 options:

1. Zpacks 1.2mm zline: .65oz (lightest), thinnest (less friction?), hurts (have to use stick for heavy loads), most likely most tangle prone
2. Zpacks 2mm zline: 1.7oz
3. Lawson 2mm ultraglide: 1.7oz

Between #2 and #3....not sure which one is more slippery, ...and...less tangle prone.

[Last Call]

Why can't you just tie a rock on the end of a rope and throw it over a branch? I do it all the time....

[nsherry61]

A couple of thoughts:
1) If you want to use those little antol rings because they are smooth, but you want the convenience of a carabiner gate, you might be able to slip the antol ring onto a mini biner and use it like a mini pulley system kinda like this?
40657

2) Earlier someone commented about these systems being defeated by bears climbing out on the limb. In the end, no system, not even bear canisters are perfect. They have all been defeated at one time or another due either to creative animals or incompetent users. All these methods are there to significantly reduce the risk. And, if that risk is bears climbing out on limbs, make sure to hoist the bag onto a limb that is too small for a bear to climb out on.https://www.ropeaccessequip.com/products/petzl-pulley-wheel-ultralegere#foo&gid=1&pid=2

[dgoggins]

Why can't you just tie a rock on the end of a rope and throw it over a branch? I do it all the time....
Yeah, that's what I used to do too. Its just that either ->

1. Half the time, the rock would fly off the rope (come loose from the knot). I used to do the "sling" method of swinging around the rock/rope and letting go, which increased the problem of this. Now I just toss like a baseball which works better. Anyway, I was getting sick of retying the rope to a rock.

2. The end of the rope would get damaged badly. I'm in Idaho..and the mountains are here are rocky. Half the ground is exposed/sharp rock...so the force of the rock hitting the ground would really mess up the rope. Like in this pic...I had already cut off 1-2' of rope and just doing it a few more times got me this ->

https://i.imgur.com/7NSODt3.jpg

One of the best features of this new bear bagging system is that very little abrasion happens to the rope...so my bear bagging rope will stay in much better condition for longer.


1) If you want to use those little antol rings because they are smooth, but you want the convenience of a carabiner gate, you might be able to slip the antol ring onto a mini biner and use it like a mini pulley system kinda like this?

I like the way that you are thinking...but...I think metal on metal would add much more friction.


make sure to hoist the bag onto a limb that is too small for a bear to climb out on.

Yeah...and the inverse is true too. It can't be too small that the bear can just break the branch at the trunk.

[nsherry61]

. . . I like the way that you are thinking...but...I think metal on metal would add much more friction. . .
Actually, I doubt that. And, if the friction of the metal on metal is more than the friction of the rope over the pulley, the rope will just slide on the pulley with about the same friction it did using the ring the other way. And, a little metal on metal friction (generally quite low already) can be substantially reduced with a little chap stick.

The bigger problem potential I see is the rope slipping out of the pulley groove and off the pulley since the pulley will probably rock on the rocking carabiner and there isn't a retainer to hold the rope and pulley in place. But then, only playing and experimenting will give us a real answer. I'm still lazy enough that I am just using carabiners and accepting the little extra friction and working with it. Carabiners combined with the strap with Shoe Gu on it works adequately for me at this point.

[cmoulder]

Two points:

1) Works fine with 2 Antal rings and no carabiners — why add complexity and weight? Threading the line thru the food bag Antal and the Antal on the webbing is no biggie once you do a couple of hangs and it becomes second nature.

2) Don't use the Shoe Goo as I did above. Why? Within the last few days I used my setup on a 2-night trip with friends around the Old Loggers Path in PA and it was wet... drizzle and mist only, thankfully, but wet all the same. The water got under the Shoe Goo and it started to peel away from the webbing. So try the Seam Grip mentioned above, or some Freesole, or something else that dries slowly and gets absorbed into the fibers.

[BuckeyeBill]

If I hiked a lot in areas where this was a regular problem, I would definitely get one of these.

Adirondacks eastern High Peaks requires bear canisters already for 3-season. The pine marten incident occurred during winter (when bear cans are not required) in the Bushnell Falls area.

I understand what you are saying. Ursack has gotten certified and is working with the various governmental agencies (Red Tape) so they can be used in place of a canister.