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md1486
08-03-2015, 15:11
Hi,

I would like to know what would be the more beautiful and enjoyable way to go up Kathadin. I think that the Abot trail is the more popular. Do you think the Knife Edge trail is worth doing since I'm in the area or this is not a "must". Thanks.

BirdBrain
08-03-2015, 15:17
Roaring Brook into Chimney Pond, Cutoff Trail to Hamlin Ridge, Hamlin across Saddle, and finally to Baxter. If weather permits, across Knife Edge and down Helon Taylor. That is my vote. Beautiful route.

Slo-go'en
08-03-2015, 19:20
The knife edge is one a heck of trail. The weather has to be down right perfect, little wind and zero chance of any type of storm. There aren't many days in the year with favorable conditions for hiking the knife edge. The route BirdBrain suggests is great, but you'd have had to plan that a year ago to get reservations at Chimney pond and then hope for the right weather.

fiddlehead
08-03-2015, 19:32
Knife edge.
If the weather Ok's it.
Good luck.

BirdBrain
08-03-2015, 19:45
The knife edge is one a heck of trail. The weather has to be down right perfect, little wind and zero chance of any type of storm. There aren't many days in the year with favorable conditions for hiking the knife edge. The route BirdBrain suggests is great, but you'd have had to plan that a year ago to get reservations at Chimney pond and then hope for the right weather.

You are correct that the weather is a crap shoot. However, the weather is a crap shoot regardless of route. When I did this route, I stayed at KSC, was driven to Roaring Brook early by my wife, and came down the Hunt instead of Helon Taylor. If the weather is too bad for the Knife Edge, the Saddle Trail is a quick down to the pond and back out. No need to reserve at the pond. Just be in shape and hike longer and/or faster. If I can do it, anyone can. Again, the weather is a huge gamble regardless of route when you have to reserve ahead.

peakbagger
08-04-2015, 06:20
The Abol trail is closed and when it reopens its going to be a far different route than before so all bets are off. I expect it will be closer to the Hunt trail experience.

Enjoyable is a relative term, if you are not in good physical condition, there really is no route that will be enjoyable as the physical effort will really impact your enjoyment. Weather is also an issue, don't hike it unless the posted forecast at the gate is a class 1 day. If they post a class 2 day, the likelihood is no views and clouded in summits.

A factor many from outside the area don't realize is that the majority of theses trails are essentially rock with the exception of a short approach. Unlike the AT south of New England, the trail bed is not soil, its rock. In some place these rocks may be flat but the majority of the trails the rocks require rock hopping. This can really slow folks who are not used to this type of hiking and can wear them out quickly.

If you are in shape and have recent experience hiking rocky trails its hard to beat any of the major routes. If you are fortunate enough to have a car spot and a great forecast , the traverse across the mountain via Helon Taylor, Knife Edge and Hunt trail is spectacular. The down side is if the weather shifts and there are moderate to high winds on Pamola, the Knifes Edge can be dangerous and you may have to take Dudley down and miss the summit and head back to where you started. This is a problem with a car spot as there is no cell service so your ride may end up on the wrong side of the mountain. My choice without a car spot is Helon Taylor to Pamola, then Knife Edge to the Summit then the Hamlin Ridge trail down. This is a very long day and would be too long of a hike for many. A very nice alternative which I use for first timers in good shape it is Chimney Pond trail to Cathedral trail and then Knifes Edge and Helon Taylor down, if the weather is not great for the Knifes Edge, Saddle can be used to get back down. Saddle is my least favorite trail. Dudley is very steep and the majority of it is boulder scramble. Keep the poles stowed as you will be using your hands frequently to pull yourself up boulders.

There are two very underused trails coming in from the north both require a overnight in the backcountry and therefore you need to be hauling an overnight pack. The Northwest Basin trail is unlike any other trail in New England. On my list is the Northern Peaks trail, I have had to bail on this hike three times due to the high winds and rain and will be giving it another go in about 5 weeks.

rocketsocks
08-04-2015, 06:51
best way up to Kathadin summit


Google Earth ;)

chiefduffy
08-04-2015, 06:55
Not to hijack the thread, but peakbagger, would you expand on the Northwest Basin trail? It intrigues me, and I have not met anyone familiar with it.

peakbagger
08-04-2015, 08:34
The Northwest basin trail will be getting potentially better known in a few years if the proposed backcountry plan gets implemented.

The Northwest Basin trail is about as remote as someone can get in the park on a maintained trail. Barring a fairly marathon effort it is not dayhiked. The lower trail runs from the Russell Pond area along a stream via an old logging road through increasingly mossy forests and then slowly the walls of the northwest basin rise up on either side of the stream, first its rock slides, then its occasional cliffs and finally its a continuous wall of cliffs. The trail then ascends a stream bed and then comes out at flat plateau at the base of the Northwest basin which is surrounded by mountains and cliffs for 300 degrees. There are a couple of ponds and then the trail slabs one of the walls to pop up on the top of the Northwest plateau. This is above treeline and exposed with the NW basin on one side and the Klondike on the other. Its about 3 miles to the summit above treeline in pure alpine territory. If you look this area up on Google Earth you can see the trail on top of the Northwest plateau. There is one single shelter in the base of the NW basin, its hidden in the woods but a 1 minute walk gets a hiker to Davis Pond which is at the base of the headwall. If someone books the shelter they effectively "own" the entire basin for the night. In order to book the Davis Pond shelter, a slot needs to be booked at Russell or Chimney either the night before or after. I have camped at Davis Pond once and had reservations for it two other times where the weather forecast was extremely nasty so I elected to bail as in rainy weather the trail would be very wet as part of the trail is in stream bed. I have also hiked it from Russell Pond. There reportedly is a bootleg trail down to Klondike Pond from the ridge but I have never found it. It rare to see anyone else on the trail until the junction with Hamlin Ridge. There is no comparison of this approach to any of the other day user accessible trails due to its remoteness. I expect if not for the tyranny of the whites blaze, many folks would elect to summit Baxter Peak this way, fortunately there is not a good connector trail from the AT.

The reason why part of the trail may get more popular is long range park plan to add more backpacking loops http://baxtertrails.blogspot.com/2013/08/how-backcountry-leanto-happens.html. There is a link in the article that shows the proposed trail #2 and it is designed to link up with this trail I personally would like the park to add an additional connector trail to the top of Fort mountain from the proposed trail as Fort is nice mountain to visit but due to the long day hike there is little time to visit it.

In general BSP is broken into three parts, the East and West sides of Katahdin for the masses, the Fort, Brothers Coe loop for the 100 highest list crowd and the rest of the park. Many folks make a two day trip to the park to check off their lists and skip the rest. Too bad for them as the backcountry north of the Katahdin and the South Branch Pond areas are must visits. The Traveler loop is worth making a special visit.

Pedaling Fool
08-04-2015, 08:45
Start Helon Taylor trail, across Knife Edge onto Baxter peak.

md1486
08-04-2015, 09:06
The Abol trail is closed and when it reopens its going to be a far different route than before so all bets are off. I expect it will be closer to the Hunt trail experience.

Enjoyable is a relative term, if you are not in good physical condition, there really is no route that will be enjoyable as the physical effort will really impact your enjoyment. Weather is also an issue, don't hike it unless the posted forecast at the gate is a class 1 day. If they post a class 2 day, the likelihood is no views and clouded in summits.

A factor many from outside the area don't realize is that the majority of theses trails are essentially rock with the exception of a short approach. Unlike the AT south of New England, the trail bed is not soil, its rock. In some place these rocks may be flat but the majority of the trails the rocks require rock hopping. This can really slow folks who are not used to this type of hiking and can wear them out quickly.


I'm not a expert but I have done a few hikes in the Whites and I found them relatively "easy". ( Loop Lincoln-Lafayette, mt Adams, mt washington). I guess the Katahdin look like the last section of mt Adams, big rocks all the way up to the summit.
I'm supposed to attempt Katahdin in the next few weeks, the problem is that I live in Québec Canada, so this is more than 5 hours of driving. Will reserve my parking spot and hope for a good weather.

Thanks for the informations guys

BirdBrain
08-04-2015, 09:12
I find a route that gets you to Baxter without crossing the Knife Edge first is preferable. Some people have a problem navigating the Chimney. It would stink if you were stopped at the Chimney. If weather worsens, the Knife Edge becomes the first trail to suffer. Wind can be enough to stop people from going across it. If you want to do Helon Taylor, I would pick another trail up and then decide if the Knife Edge can be crossed.

chiefduffy
08-04-2015, 09:57
Thanks peakbagger!

peakbagger
08-04-2015, 10:32
No problem chief :)


. If you want to do Helon Taylor, I would pick another trail up and then decide if the Knife Edge can be crossed.
My standard recommendation for those who want to do Knife Edge is go up Cathedral Trail, if this is too intense or the summit weather is marginal, then take Saddle or possibly Hamlin ridge down instead of the Knife Edge. If the hiker was comfortable on the Cathedral trail they normally can tolerate the Knife Edge. If its calm and sunny with no significant weather coming in from west then consider the Knifes Edge. The one spot which is borderline technical is just before the actual Chimney neae the end of trail near Pamola. It is a downclimb that looks far scarier than it is. On a typical day there is a line up at this point as unlike most of the rest of the route there is no way to bypass it. If a hiker takes off their pack and possibly has someone below guide their feet to the unseen footholds below the spot its not an issue for 99% of the folks that hike this trail. There are potentially hundreds of hikers on a weekend that make it past this spot and I don't know of any report where someone was injured. To me the biggest hassle is that some folks (usually groups) get impatient and try to push their way ahead in line to go down this spot. I have in the past had to rather forcefully suggest that if they are in hurry they should jump off the side of trail down the ravine as trying to rush someone ahead does not help a nervous hiker make it down this spot. Of course add in rain clouds and wind and this great hike can and does get dangerous.

The biggest hint is if you are in the park start as early as possible preferably in the dark with headlamps. The weather is almost always the best in the AM with clouds forming over the summit by noon to 1 PM. If you can get up there by 11 the crowd is far less, the views are potentially less obscured and rarely does any afternoon thundershowers form until after 1 PM.

BirdBrain
08-04-2015, 11:26
The biggest hint is if you are in the park start as early as possible preferably in the dark with headlamps. The weather is almost always the best in the AM with clouds forming over the summit by noon to 1 PM. If you can get up there by 11 the crowd is far less, the views are potentially less obscured and rarely does any afternoon thundershowers form until after 1 PM.

This is a great tip for any New England exposed ridge. It is why my pace is always near 2 mph. I hate to have a hike thwarted by possible bad afternoon weather. I am always pushing on the ups and relaxing on the downs. This makes for a sweaty BirdBrain, but so far a 100% success rate. My recent 14.4 mile Isolation hike had 70% thunder storm predictions from 8 AM on. I was on the trail at 6:30 AM, on the peak at 10 AM, and back to the car at 1 PM. I heard my 1st thunder clap as I was getting in my car. The LATS (Look At The Sky) method was more reliable than Weather Bug. My hope was to get off the peak before danger. That is always a good plan when there is any chance of lightning.

egilbe
08-04-2015, 21:56
I got a good view of the Basin trail from North Brother a few weeks ago. It seems, or looks like the most gradual route to Hamlin peak, anyway. GF and are are planning a back country hike around Katahdin, either next year or the year after. Looks like a nice loop in the works.

BirdBrain
08-04-2015, 22:23
I got a good view of the Basin trail from North Brother a few weeks ago. It seems, or looks like the most gradual route to Hamlin peak, anyway. GF and are are planning a back country hike around Katahdin, either next year or the year after. Looks like a nice loop in the works.

Thanks for the tip. I loved Hamiln and North Brother is 1 of the 7 I am missing to get the 67. It would be nice to make that more than just peak bagging. I will have to look into that route.

Edit: Wait a sec. Isn't there a huge swamp between North Brother and Hamlin? I think I misunderstood something. Does the Basin Trail go toward Russell Pond?

Second edit: Just read peakbagger's description. I am up to speed now. :/

egilbe
08-05-2015, 10:45
Thanks for the tip. I loved Hamiln and North Brother is 1 of the 7 I am missing to get the 67. It would be nice to make that more than just peak bagging. I will have to look into that route.

Edit: Wait a sec. Isn't there a huge swamp between North Brother and Hamlin? I think I misunderstood something. Does the Basin Trail go toward Russell Pond?

Second edit: Just read peakbagger's description. I am up to speed now. :/


I had to look at the map again, just to verify what I was saying is correct, and it is :)

The Basin trail may be the easiest trail up to Hamlin, but it would take a couple days to get there. It would be nice to extend the trail from North Brother, to Fort Mountain down to the Basin trail. Could be a nice two or three day loop at that point

Traveler
08-05-2015, 11:09
I find a route that gets you to Baxter without crossing the Knife Edge first is preferable. Some people have a problem navigating the Chimney. It would stink if you were stopped at the Chimney. If weather worsens, the Knife Edge becomes the first trail to suffer. Wind can be enough to stop people from going across it. If you want to do Helon Taylor, I would pick another trail up and then decide if the Knife Edge can be crossed.

I would agree. Find your preferred route to Baxter Peak out of Roaring brook first, then decide if the Knife Edge is doable. Weather will likely determine this, followed by ability and condition at the time of the decision. If you go to Pamola peak first, you have no option other than the Knife Edge to summit Katahdin.

My first trip to Katahdin many years ago (20?) I only had a day to make the most of and got lucky. I was first in line to get a day parking pass for Roaring Brook Camping area. Made my way to Chimney Pond and met a fellow waiting for company to do the Cathedral Trail to the summit. I would have taken the longer way around solo, but taking this trail saved some time to open up other options at the top. Good thing as I recall, that trail was pretty challenging. We summited, the weather was warm and calm (late August), so we took the Knife Edge to Pamola then the Helon Taylor trail back to Roaring Brook. The longest part of that day hike was the drive out of RB to the park entrance, I swear they added another 12 miles to that road from the time I drove on it that morning.

md1486
08-25-2015, 14:47
Thanks for the infos guys
I’m suppose to hike Katahdin this weekend, my parking lot reservation is done. Will go up Chimney Pond, then Cathedral trail, up there I will see how good is the weather, if weather’s good I will do the Knife Edge and then down Helon Taylor, if not, will go down either by cathedral again or by saddle trail. Can’t wait to go hiking Katahdin !

TJ aka Teej
08-25-2015, 15:58
I do not recommend Cathedral for a descent, md.
Have fun!

md1486
08-25-2015, 16:26
I do not recommend Cathedral for a descent, md.
Have fun!

I would be better to go down by saddle trail and chemney pond if weather's not good ?

rafe
08-25-2015, 16:44
If you have a 2-night reservation at Chimney Pond, then on the middle day, with fair weather, you can make a loop of Dudley, Knife Edge and Cathedral, starting and ending at Chimney Pond. Hike in to Chimney Pond the first day, hike back out on the last day.

md1486
08-25-2015, 16:50
If you have a 2-night reservation at Chimney Pond, then on the middle day, with fair weather, you can make a loop of Dudley, Knife Edge and Cathedral, starting and ending at Chimney Pond. Hike in to Chimney Pond the first day, hike back out on the last day.

It would have been nice! However I have no reservation at Chimney pond or roaring brook campground, I'll stay at big moose in, a campground 45 min. for the beginning of the trail at roaring brook. It's seems to be my best option so far.

peakbagger
08-25-2015, 22:13
I would be better to go down by saddle trail and chemney pond if weather's not good ?

Yes, the Saddle trial is the least exposed route down. It is a loose slide up top and try to avoid having a large group behind you as they can knock lose rocks down on you. The lower section of the Saddle trail is well graded trail and the Chimney Pond trail is similar.

md1486
08-28-2015, 10:31
weather seems promising so far for my sunday katahdin hike, I know that its dépends on the conditions and my own pace, but what would be a "normal" time, or a "book time" for this hike assuming that I go up Chimney Pond, then Cathedral, Knife edge and down by helon Taylor. Thanks, cant wait to hike the knife edge, which will take me up to 12 hours of car for a 1 day hike.

rafe
08-28-2015, 11:57
Book time? I wouldn't worry about it if the hike involves Knife Edge. Take your time. If it were me, I'd leave camp early, to give myself maximum daylight. Pack some warm outer layers and headlamp, just in case. It can be mighty cool and breezy up top.

BirdBrain
08-28-2015, 12:11
Think 1 to 1.5 MPH. Calculate the distance and do the math. The terrain will slow you down. The views will slow you down even more. +1 on post above. Get started as early as you can. Enjoy the walk. If you are in the shape you suggest, you will have a great day and have enough time. You should be able to do at least 2 MPH from Roaring Brook to Chimney Pond. Once you get to the pond, time will stop. The views and the climb will be a awesome slow walk.

rafe
08-28-2015, 12:13
Don't forget hat and gloves.

md1486
08-28-2015, 12:38
Book time? I wouldn't worry about it if the hike involves Knife Edge. Take your time. If it were me, I'd leave camp early, to give myself maximum daylight. Pack some warm outer layers and headlamp, just in case. It can be mighty cool and breezy up top.

Thanks, I only wanted to have a approximation to determine my early start, since I have 6 hrs of car to do after my hike to go back home!

peakbagger
08-28-2015, 13:50
Bring plenty of water, you can refill at Chimney Pond (like all other water in the park you need to treat it)if you are doing Cathedral or Saddle, but once you cross the bridge over the brook on Hunt Trail there is no reliable water to the summit. If you are doing Helon Taylor and Knifes Edge the last water is just a short distance up Chimney Pond Trail where you turn onto Helon Taylor. Thoreau Springs on the tableland can be pretty scuzzy unless you have a filter. There is another spring near the turn off the tablelands onto Saddle that is somewhat better. A lot of folks misjudge water and ending up getting dehydrated.

BirdBrain
08-31-2015, 09:18
Someone had great weather (at least it was great in Acadia all weekend). I look forward to the report.

md1486
08-31-2015, 09:56
Finally went up by chimney pond and then cathedral. What a hike cathedral trail! It tooks us more than 3 hours of "climbing". Unfortunately we couldn't see anything up there because it was too cloudy with kind of grumpy wind. So we did not do the knife edge, we went down by saddle trail. Total time: 10hrs. I will certainly go again next year for the knife edge and hope for a clear view.

Traveler
08-31-2015, 11:24
Finally went up by chimney pond and then cathedral. What a hike cathedral trail! It tooks us more than 3 hours of "climbing". Unfortunately we couldn't see anything up there because it was too cloudy with kind of grumpy wind. So we did not do the knife edge, we went down by saddle trail. Total time: 10hrs. I will certainly go again next year for the knife edge and hope for a clear view.

Did you enjoy the Cathedral climb? The Knife Edge is a spectacular view when the weather is right, sorry you were socked in. When I was last there you could see the moisture from the eastern side of the mountain evaporate and condense into clouds about 100 feet above us, it would drizzle and rain a bit, clouds would dissipate, and the cycle would start all over again. Quite a weather machine there.

md1486
08-31-2015, 11:55
Did you enjoy the Cathedral climb? The Knife Edge is a spectacular view when the weather is right, sorry you were socked in. When I was last there you could see the moisture from the eastern side of the mountain evaporate and condense into clouds about 100 feet above us, it would drizzle and rain a bit, clouds would dissipate, and the cycle would start all over again. Quite a weather machine there.

This is truly a special and unique trail. Very demanding, my girlfriend is quite small so there is some places that were a little creepy for her. (And for me looking at her lol). The view was really disappointing however, in fact there was no view excepts tons of big rocks! I can't wait to do the knife edge on a clear view.

peakbagger
08-31-2015, 13:15
I plan to be up on the summit and near the summit this weekend. I hope to do an early hike to get ahead of the crowds. I plan to head north the next day and expect I will see few if any folks once I leave Hamlin.

LoneStranger
08-31-2015, 15:02
I plan to be up on the summit and near the summit this weekend. I hope to do an early hike to get ahead of the crowds. I plan to head north the next day and expect I will see few if any folks once I leave Hamlin.

NW Basin or North Peaks? The Basin has some treacherous trail, especially below Davis, while the Peaks trail has extra bears from what I'm told. You can't go wrong for adventure either way :)

peakbagger
09-09-2015, 10:11
North Peaks, was worth the wait. Left Chimney Pond early and didn't see another hiker until we hit Russell Pond. A friend who has hiked in Newfoundland said it reminded him of trails up there rather than New England. I have done the NW basin a few times including a night a Davis Pond. I cant wait until the new trail from Center Pond between Mullen and Fort gets built. Its going to open up a lot of interesting options.

gregpphoto
09-09-2015, 12:39
The knife edge is one a heck of trail. The weather has to be down right perfect, little wind and zero chance of any type of storm. There aren't many days in the year with favorable conditions for hiking the knife edge. The route BirdBrain suggests is great, but you'd have had to plan that a year ago to get reservations at Chimney pond and then hope for the right weather.

Cmon, its not a technical ridgeline even. Ive seen people in the Trap Dike of the ADK and out on the slide during rain, and thats way more exposed and technical than the Knife Edge. I wouldnt be begging for rain and lightning if I were to go up it, but I also wouldnt be put off by normal mountain weather. HYOH though. Everyones comfort zone varies.

Traveler
09-09-2015, 13:23
Cmon, its not a technical ridgeline even. Ive seen people in the Trap Dike of the ADK and out on the slide during rain, and thats way more exposed and technical than the Knife Edge. I wouldnt be begging for rain and lightning if I were to go up it, but I also wouldnt be put off by normal mountain weather. HYOH though. Everyones comfort zone varies.

The Knife Edge is deceptive. It doesn't appear to be much of a technical trail, but once out on the exposure and the weather changes or the winds come, it gets very dangerous very fast. There have been several deaths along that mile of trail and more than several injuries that have required evacuation. On a trail a few feet wide with drop offs of 1,000 feet on either side, vertigo can become a problem on a calm day. People have been blown off that ridge in less that serious weather conditions, convection winds can be gusty or just breezy within the same few minutes. Footing is treacherous and can be made dangerous by just a little moisture. The real danger is over confidence where caution should rule the day.

Its ok to have a trail of this caliber in your comfort zone, but that zone should include a high respect for the many different things that can happen. Though you may not think it difficult from a photo, once there it will likely change and the mountain may have other ideas of how it wants you to pass. Dismissing the dangers of this type from a photo is bad form, as noted by Sir Edmund Hillary in a different hill.

"Many people have been getting too casual about climbing Everest. I forecast a disaster many times" Sir Edmund Hillary

gregpphoto
09-09-2015, 15:54
The Knife Edge is deceptive. It doesn't appear to be much of a technical trail, but once out on the exposure and the weather changes or the winds come, it gets very dangerous very fast. There have been several deaths along that mile of trail and more than several injuries that have required evacuation. On a trail a few feet wide with drop offs of 1,000 feet on either side, vertigo can become a problem on a calm day. People have been blown off that ridge in less that serious weather conditions, convection winds can be gusty or just breezy within the same few minutes. Footing is treacherous and can be made dangerous by just a little moisture. The real danger is over confidence where caution should rule the day.

Its ok to have a trail of this caliber in your comfort zone, but that zone should include a high respect for the many different things that can happen. Though you may not think it difficult from a photo, once there it will likely change and the mountain may have other ideas of how it wants you to pass. Dismissing the dangers of this type from a photo is bad form, as noted by Sir Edmund Hillary in a different hill.

"Many people have been getting too casual about climbing Everest. I forecast a disaster many times" Sir Edmund Hillary



If its a marked hiking trail in America, it cannot be that difficult, or else it wouldnt be a marked trail. Im not saying you cant die, Im just saying theres not much in the way of technical difficulty. Angels Landing in Zion comes to mind. You dont even need the chains, as evidenced by the fact that me, with zero rock climbing experience at the time, was able to ascend, descend, reascend, and redescend without once touching the chains. But of course if you fall there is no recourse.

Traveler
09-09-2015, 16:16
If its a marked hiking trail in America, it cannot be that difficult, or else it wouldnt be a marked trail. Im not saying you cant die, Im just saying theres not much in the way of technical difficulty. Angels Landing in Zion comes to mind. You dont even need the chains, as evidenced by the fact that me, with zero rock climbing experience at the time, was able to ascend, descend, reascend, and redescend without once touching the chains. But of course if you fall there is no recourse.

Under estimation is the father of most back country problems and accidents. We see this time and again. Had Kate Matrosova survived the blazed trail route in the White Mountains last winter, she may have some strong opinions about that particular topic. She was a highly experienced mountaineer and didn't survive what she felt would be a very doable if not routine day hike on what is a marked, non technical trail. Just because a trail is a marked out does not lessen its lethality in certain conditions or your particular condition that day.

Your experience in Zion does not demonstrate the safety of marked trails, it more accurately demonstrates the level of risk you choose to take. We sometimes do things in youth we would not consider doing as we get older, not because we are frightened but because our risk analysis becomes more focused as we become more aware of consequences others have experienced. To paraphrase an old aviation quote: The trail in itself is not inherently dangerous, but much like the sea it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect.

Mt Washington is not a technical climb either, but its one of the most dangerous small mountains in the world with some 125 souls losing their lives on her slopes due to under estimating the mountain.

Something to think about.

rafe
09-09-2015, 18:02
If its a marked hiking trail in America, it cannot be that difficult, or else it wouldnt be a marked trail. Im not saying you cant die, Im just saying theres not much in the way of technical difficulty. Angels Landing in Zion comes to mind. You dont even need the chains, as evidenced by the fact that me, with zero rock climbing experience at the time, was able to ascend, descend, reascend, and redescend without once touching the chains. But of course if you fall there is no recourse.

Yep, I remember that chain well, and the 1000' sheer drop. My palms begin to sweat just thinking about it. I prefer to be at least two or three steps away from certain death.

gregpphoto
09-10-2015, 07:57
Under estimation is the father of most back country problems and accidents. We see this time and again. Had Kate Matrosova survived the blazed trail route in the White Mountains last winter, she may have some strong opinions about that particular topic. She was a highly experienced mountaineer and didn't survive what she felt would be a very doable if not routine day hike on what is a marked, non technical trail. Just because a trail is a marked out does not lessen its lethality in certain conditions or your particular condition that day.

Your experience in Zion does not demonstrate the safety of marked trails, it more accurately demonstrates the level of risk you choose to take. We sometimes do things in youth we would not consider doing as we get older, not because we are frightened but because our risk analysis becomes more focused as we become more aware of consequences others have experienced. To paraphrase an old aviation quote: The trail in itself is not inherently dangerous, but much like the sea it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect.

Mt Washington is not a technical climb either, but its one of the most dangerous small mountains in the world with some 125 souls losing their lives on her slopes due to under estimating the mountain.

Something to think about.

125 people die on Mt. Washington because there is a road going to the top. Mt. Marcy gets the same weather, but how come we have almost no deaths on that mountain? Perhaps because you have to do the un-American thing and walk there? And winter mountaineering is a separate matter. But in summer, especially in the mild northeast where hail and snow are not exactly common June-September, its pretty hard to die. You have to work for it. Or just show up in shorts and t, both cotton, then youll be dead too.

peakbagger
09-10-2015, 08:43
I did the Knife Edge last Sunday along with 100s of others. I had been reading this thread so kept an eye out as I walked. The actual trail is in some places 12 inches wide but to either side there are frequently bypasses. For the vast majority of the hike, there are talus fields on either side that are steep but adequate to catch a hiker that would fall. There are on the other hand, a few spots predominantly on the Chimney Pond Cirque side of the trail where the rock drops away at 70 to 80 degrees off vertical. In those spots there are no backup places to fall. There are plenty of footholds and handholds in these areas and the rock is quite abrasive for grip. The biggest area of problems is at the Chimney with a somewhat vertical wall on the Pamola Side has to be climbed and the decent into the Chimney from the pinnacle immediately west of it. In both cases someone falling will not fall down the mountain, rather they will fall into the Chimney which is flat at the bottom with room for many people.

For the volume and ability of hikers traversing this trail, the number of deaths and injuries are low. The biggest issues would be weather related. There is no shelter for this trail and it is exposed from one end to the other. It also descends away from the summit on the lee side which means that incoming weather is not visible so rain showers can appear suddenly. Due to the exposure its no place to be when its windy as if someone is forced to have three points in contact with the ground progress will slow considerably. If the wind is such that one cant walk upright without poles or grab points, then its best to choose another route.

rafe
09-10-2015, 08:59
I did Knife Edge before I knew about trekking poles. If I were to do Knife Edge again, I wouldn't bring them. This is the sort of terrain where you'll need your hands. Four-limb climbing, I think they call it.

gregpphoto
09-10-2015, 09:11
I did Knife Edge before I knew about trekking poles. If I were to do Knife Edge again, I wouldn't bring them. This is the sort of terrain where you'll need your hands. Four-limb climbing, I think they call it.

Its that beautiful gray area that is mindlessly easy for most rock climbers but scares the pants off most hikers!

Traveler
09-10-2015, 09:35
125 people die on Mt. Washington because there is a road going to the top. Mt. Marcy gets the same weather, but how come we have almost no deaths on that mountain? Perhaps because you have to do the un-American thing and walk there? And winter mountaineering is a separate matter. But in summer, especially in the mild northeast where hail and snow are not exactly common June-September, its pretty hard to die. You have to work for it. Or just show up in shorts and t, both cotton, then youll be dead too.

125 people have died on Mt Washington because they drove up? Clearly you don't know a lot about the Mountain. While not taking anything away from Marcy, it is not anything like Washington. "Not Without Peril" is a book I would recommend for you, which documents various people and their treks that ended badly that go back over a century to now, many of them unaware or cavalier about the dangers the mountain holds for the unprepared. This is not a technical climb, but it can and will chew people up if one under estimates the potential weather issues.

The worst weather conditions in North America occur on Mt Washington, along with the strongest winds ever recorded in North America. Its also a very cold mountain, having lower temperatures rivaling higher latitudes in Alaska and most of Canada during all months of the year. This is due to mainly to its geographical location, distance from the sea and being a convergent area for weather systems. It has snowed there all months of the year and routinely has dramatic temperature changes well beyond the normal lapse rate. A balmy June or August day at the bottom can be anywhere from 30 to 50 degrees cooler at the summit depending on time of year on nice days. Weather changes happen extremely fast and can sock you in with very cold fog and drizzle in the 40 degree range in mid August with a 50 mph or higher wind. It is not unheard of for snow and freezing rain to develop in these conditions.

My point is not that one should be frightened of every step in the woods, but that one should always respect the power of nature and the elements, especially in challenging environments. Blazed trails are not always safe or easy, though they can be under perfect conditions. We work around weather and terrain effects routinely, with most hikes being in places where weather and/or terrain are easily mitigated being properly prepared. However, under estimation being what it is, its not hard at all to succumb to hypothermia, it can and does happen to tourists in cotton and sneakers and highly experienced mountaineers. Being unaware of the dangers, or worse, believing because a trail is marked makes it not dangerous and not being prepared for condition changes is a hard lesson many have learned. Some paying the ultimate price.

gregpphoto
09-10-2015, 09:45
125 people have died on Mt Washington because they drove up? Clearly you don't know a lot about the Mountain. While not taking anything away from Marcy, it is not anything like Washington. "Not Without Peril" is a book I would recommend for you, which documents various people and their treks that ended badly that go back over a century to now, many of them unaware or cavalier about the dangers the mountain holds for the unprepared. This is not a technical climb, but it can and will chew people up if one under estimates the potential weather issues.

The worst weather conditions in North America occur on Mt Washington, along with the strongest winds ever recorded in North America. Its also a very cold mountain, having lower temperatures rivaling higher latitudes in Alaska and most of Canada during all months of the year. This is due to mainly to its geographical location, distance from the sea and being a convergent area for weather systems. It has snowed there all months of the year and routinely has dramatic temperature changes well beyond the normal lapse rate. A balmy June or August day at the bottom can be anywhere from 30 to 50 degrees cooler at the summit depending on time of year on nice days. Weather changes happen extremely fast and can sock you in with very cold fog and drizzle in the 40 degree range in mid August with a 50 mph or higher wind. It is not unheard of for snow and freezing rain to develop in these conditions.

My point is not that one should be frightened of every step in the woods, but that one should always respect the power of nature and the elements, especially in challenging environments. Blazed trails are not always safe or easy, though they can be under perfect conditions. We work around weather and terrain effects routinely, with most hikes being in places where weather and/or terrain are easily mitigated being properly prepared. However, under estimation being what it is, its not hard at all to succumb to hypothermia, it can and does happen to tourists in cotton and sneakers and highly experienced mountaineers. Being unaware of the dangers, or worse, believing because a trail is marked makes it not dangerous and not being prepared for condition changes is a hard lesson many have learned. Some paying the ultimate price.

I should start by saying I agree with you on most fronts, and am well aware that the best weather for hypothermia is not the middle of winter, but what you described, 30s/40s windy and wet. I get that its nothing to trifle with. I guess Ive just had enough time in wild enough weather on mountain summits to know that as long as you have the proper clothing, its no big deal. Im not underestimating the mountain. I am properly gauging it juxtaposed with my abilities and my gear. The northeast is so condensed and filled with paved roads thats quite hard to get lost for more than a day if you have even a little common sense about you. For example, on Washington, unless you walked off the NW side or due S, you cant go more than a few miles without hitting a road.

rafe
09-10-2015, 09:49
I should start by saying I agree with you on most fronts, and am well aware that the best weather for hypothermia is not the middle of winter, but what you described, 30s/40s windy and wet. I get that its nothing to trifle with. I guess Ive just had enough time in wild enough weather on mountain summits to know that as long as you have the proper clothing, its no big deal. Im not underestimating the mountain. I am properly gauging it juxtaposed with my abilities and my gear. The northeast is so condensed and filled with paved roads thats quite hard to get lost for more than a day if you have even a little common sense about you. For example, on Washington, unless you walked off the NW side or due S, you cant go more than a few miles without hitting a road.

Kate Matrosova thought that, too.

gregpphoto
09-10-2015, 09:51
Kate Matrosova thought that, too. That was in February. February is just a bit different than July and August isnt it?

rafe
09-10-2015, 09:58
^^ I'm responding to the highlighted sentence in your prior post, #49. If not for your benefit, then for others. There's a whole lot of bravado and machismo on this forum, and my self-appointed role is to tamp it down just a notch. ;)

gregpphoto
09-10-2015, 10:00
^^ I'm responding to the highlighted sentence in your prior post, #49. If not for your benefit, then for others. There's a whole lot of bravado and machismo on this forum, and my self-appointed role is to tamp it down just a notch. ;)

Hahah. Why else go to the mountains unless to conquer and raise your flag??

rafe
09-10-2015, 10:06
I can think of all sorts of reasons. I don't go to the woods to conquer a trail or conquer a mountain. I go for recreation.

gregpphoto
09-10-2015, 10:11
I can think of all sorts of reasons. I don't go to the woods to conquer a trail or conquer a mountain. I go for recreation.

Sorry I should have added the /s to indicate sarcasm. One can never conquer a mountain. The mountain merely lets you stand upon it for a short while. And that is no sarcasm.

Traveler
09-10-2015, 14:31
I should start by saying I agree with you on most fronts, and am well aware that the best weather for hypothermia is not the middle of winter, but what you described, 30s/40s windy and wet. I get that its nothing to trifle with. I guess Ive just had enough time in wild enough weather on mountain summits to know that as long as you have the proper clothing, its no big deal. Im not underestimating the mountain. I am properly gauging it juxtaposed with my abilities and my gear. The northeast is so condensed and filled with paved roads thats quite hard to get lost for more than a day if you have even a little common sense about you. For example, on Washington, unless you walked off the NW side or due S, you cant go more than a few miles without hitting a road.

Good deal. Forgive the nudge, but a lot of people tend to not respect where they are going and not ending up well that it deserves a call out.