View Full Version : Baxter in the future
squeezebox
08-03-2015, 17:38
So what are some things we can do that might improve our chances of maintaining access to Katahdin and BSP in the future. Bissell seems to have said it's the numbers first behavior second.
How about we all pull together as a group of hikers and drop all the finger pointing, and together begin some positive steps to try to fix this problem.
Odd Man Out
08-03-2015, 17:48
Wasn't there to be a meeting among the involved parties? When is that or did it already take place. Anyone know the outcome?
Rockhead
08-03-2015, 17:48
As discussed on another site. I feel that as an out-of-stater, I am agreeable to a small, reasonable fee to help offset the costs of hiking in Baxter. I know I will be in the minority on this one, but I don't live in Maine and I don't pay taxes there. If I want to use a state resource, a small fee is not unreasonable.
kayak karl
08-03-2015, 17:52
Follow the common sense rules?
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BirdBrain
08-03-2015, 18:12
Commit to follow rules. Be vocal in that commitment. Marginalize those that seek to sabotage any constructive effort. In the end, you can only do anything about one person. That is yourself. However, if the quiet majority that are reasonable are not shy, then they can squelch the unreasonable and loud minority. Most people are reasonable. I believe that. I have to believe that. Don't let the minority have their way in burning it down. Do right. Convince others to do right. Don't buy the emotional and possibly calculated statements that say that Baxter is just looking for any reason to kick thru's out. Lastly, and possibly most importantly, listen to our advocates (ATC and MATC and maybe others) and follow their advice.
Sarcasm the elf
08-03-2015, 18:16
As discussed on another site. I feel that as an out-of-stater, I am agreeable to a small, reasonable fee to help offset the costs of hiking in Baxter. I know I will be in the minority on this one, but I don't live in Maine and I don't pay taxes there. If I want to use a state resource, a small fee is not unreasonable.
Just to be clear, Baxter park is funded by in independent trust, it is not paid for by tax dollars.
That said, I have no issue with paying for things I use, so long as the fee is reasonable.
Walkintom
08-03-2015, 18:31
Just to be clear, Baxter park is funded by in independent trust, it is not paid for by tax dollars.
That said, I have no issue with paying for things I use, so long as the fee is reasonable.
What he said.
OMG. Is this really happening here? We're finally moving forward in the right direction? Thank all of you so far for moving us forward. You all get some sunshine and dancing bananas today.:sun:sun:sun:sun:sun:banana:banana:banana:ba nana:banana
BTW, the bananas planted in the back yard here in GA have started fruiting. Luv it.
AT hikers should respect the terms of the gift that created BSP and follow the rules intended to fulfill the donor's wishes, recognizing that one need not agree with the rules but must follow them anyway. Most people learn this type of behavioral code in grade school (or used to). What could be simpler?
It is important to make sure that the "solutions" don't make matters worse.
For example, some have suggested that the Birches be removed and thru hikers compete for camping space like everyone else. Yikes.
If that should come to pass it would be a complete cluster ****. It wouldn't take too many "responsible" individual thru hikers making reservations for their own 4 to 6 person lean-to from Gorham and progressively farther south to make a REAL mess for every one who aspires to visit Baxter.
Finally it is fundamentally important not to lose the public relations game. I actually think this Jureck kerfuffle may actually be a good thing, as it has demonstrated BSP's absolute moral high ground may sometimes rest an on a bed of scree.
This article is well worth reading, as are some of the comments:
https://www.centralmaine.com/2015/07/29/hikers-record-at-trek-could-have-been-positive-event-for-maine-but-wasnt/
BirdBrain
08-03-2015, 19:27
I read the first line and.moved on. The hope of Baxter is not welcoming hikers better. The hope of hikers in Baxter is to follow the rules. The author has zero clue of the economic history of northern Maine. Welcoming hikers better is useless when they are already operating at near capacity. What economic benefit can it have when there is no room for more? Beyond that, the premise is false. Baxter does welcome hikers. Now let's get back to what we can do, not how we can change Baxter.
Pedaling Fool
08-03-2015, 19:34
So what are some things we can do that might improve our chances of maintaining access to Katahdin and BSP in the future. Bissell seems to have said it's the numbers first behavior second.
How about we all pull together as a group of hikers and drop all the finger pointing, and together begin some positive steps to try to fix this problem.
According to Bissell we should all do like AK and just stay away.
According to Bissell we should all do like AK and just stay away.
Just to be clear, when you say "we" you mean thru hikers, right?
Always keep in mind that:
Although more than 30,000 people will sign a trail register at a Katahdin trailhead thissummer, we (BSP) still consider Pamola, Baxter Peak and the Knife Edge to be a part of thewilderness of Baxter State Park.
MuddyWaters
08-03-2015, 20:17
So what are some things we can do that might improve our chances of maintaining access to Katahdin and BSP in the future. Bissell seems to have said it's the numbers first behavior second.
How about we all pull together as a group of hikers and drop all the finger pointing, and together begin some positive steps to try to fix this problem.
That is precisely why the ATC tried to promote flip flopping.
It wont work for the party crowd.
The truth is, there needs to be less thruhikers concentrated
They need to use permits to spread them out by force
Its coming eventually, its inevitable
The bubble is already overstressing the beginning of the trail, gsmnp, and other areas.
BirdBrain
08-03-2015, 20:33
Just to be clear, the economic woes of northern Maine have everything to do with lost industry and nothing to do with BSP. Hiram Day of Wesley invented the coil spring mattress. The Peavy hook was invented in Maine. Those are 2 cottage industries that come to mind. Paper. mills have closed. Logging industry has suffered. Toothpicks were a huge industry. Shoe shops like Orbeck's used to be everywhere. Automation and cheap foreign labor has crushed much of northern Maine and the numerous cottage industries there. Tourism is more of a coastal thing. It always has been. It always will be. The author should know this. Northern Maine should have adapted better. That is another debate. However, Baxter is not the blame at all for the bad economy of northern Maine.
Violent Green
08-03-2015, 20:46
The truth is, there needs to be less thruhikers concentrated
They need to use permits to spread them out by force
Its coming eventually, its inevitable
The bubble is already overstressing the beginning of the trail, gsmnp, and other areas.
Yep. Permits - they are a coming.
Ryan
Another Kevin
08-03-2015, 21:02
Just to be clear, when you say "we" you mean thru hikers, right?
Always keep in mind that:
Although more than 30,000 people will sign a trail register at a Katahdin trailhead this summer, we (BSP) still consider Pamola, Baxter Peak and the Knife Edge to be a part of the wilderness of Baxter State Park.
A-T users (recall that BSP defines 'thru-hiker' as anyone arriving from more than 100 miles away) are harder to support than the others because of the special considerations offered - and those are well-nigh necessary.
An A-T hiker who arrives at Abol Bridge is committing to a thirty-mile trek with about five thousand feet of ascent (and obviously the same descent) before leaving the park again. Moreover, the ascent is arduous; it's one of the more technical stretches of the A-T. Even among fit and experienced thru-hikers, many if not most simply cannot manage that safely in a day. (My personal 'rule of thumb' - I'm not a fast hiker - would say that I'd have to allow nearly 22 hours for that much distance and elevation change. Of course, I'm not in thru-hiking fettle, but I think that just about everyone would have to leave Abol Bridge well before dawn in order to be clear of the more hazardous scrambles by sundown, particularly with the shorter days arriving in September and October.
In practice, what this means is that, unlike the many people who arrive with DUPR's, every hiker who enters on the A-T pretty much requires BSP to find the hiker a place to spend the night. For many years, The Birches, with possible overflow into Katahdin Stream, Daicey Pond, and perhaps Abol Stream, was able to absorb all comers, or at worst, someone would have to delay entering the park by a day or two. Now, if BSP did not resort to heroic measures to fit everyone in, it seems possible that someone who entered in late September might find that all the places are taken - right to the end of the hiking season. And if the load increases by even a very small amount, that outcome will be virtually certain. And the idea of creating more campsites to accommodate A-T users is Not Going To Happen.
By contrast, overnight users who use the campgrounds make their reservations months in advance, generally can be flexible about dates, and can avoid peak NOBO season. They, and DUPR holders, do not arrive unannounced, and capacity can be planned for them.
And this is simply the nature of the beast. A thru-hiker cannot hold to a reservation made months in advance. There is too much uncertainty about where he will be on the trail. And expecting a thirty-mile traverse of the park, including the ascent of Katahdin, in a single day is similarly infeasible for most of us. Requiring such a forced march would result only in a spate of illegal camping and accidents.
If thru-hikers were held to reservation requirements, it would be a disaster. Most could not get them, or would at the very least miss their time slots, resulting in a great many 'no-shows' and a great many unannounced arrivals. Moreover, BSP is porous. A checkpoint to verify reservations would be easily, if unlawfully bypassed, and gate-crashers would become a tremendous problem. And full-time law enforcement on Katahdin is nearly infeasible. Remember that full-time law enforcement would require an officer not only to climb Katahdin daily, but to get there before the mass of the lawbreakers do! And the vast majority of us, who would obey the law, jump through the hoops, and still miss our chance just because of some unforeseen and unforeseeable delay, would be blamed for the antics of the few lawbreakers. A side detriment would be that those who arrive early and are awaiting their appointed time would overwhelm the facilities at Abol Bridge and Millinocket. There are some pretty severe natural limitations on how far those could be expanded, and all the employment created would do little to help the local economy - nobody really benefits from a job that will last only a couple of months.
The idea of making the Trail between Abol Bridge and Katahdin Stream optional, and shuttling hikers to the finish so that they do not consume more resources than DUPR holders, might conceivably work for a short while. And we can hope that by then, the thru-hiking fad among the crowd who treat a thru-hike as a six-month Spring Break might come to an end.
Aside from some creative solution such as that, it's really no skin off BSP's nose simply to close the Abol Bridge entrance. The A-T will still exist, will still terminate at Katahdin, but those who wish to hike it will have to go southbound and start with a reservation. That's still a lot less severe than, say, the lottery system for Grand Canyon rafting trips. And it seems to be the most likely outcome, unless something really creative can be found.
Another Kevin
08-03-2015, 21:12
That is precisely why the ATC tried to promote flip flopping.
It wont work for the party crowd.
The truth is, there needs to be less thruhikers concentrated
They need to use permits to spread them out by force
Its coming eventually, its inevitable
The bubble is already overstressing the beginning of the trail, gsmnp, and other areas.
And permits will have to specify the entry date into Baxter State Park in order to spread the load effectively. Otherwise an event like an early hurricane can bunch up the hikers and we're back to having the same problem of too many arriving at once. Instead, we will have the problem that an injury or other delay will abort a thru hike because the hiker will miss the date of his permit. Sorry, that's unfortunate. Better luck next year. That's still better than the lottery for rafting the Grand Canyon, where if you miss your date, you're out the $25 lottery ticket, the $400 registration fee, and you lose priority in the weighted lottery for the following five years.
And if thru-hikers decide to go SOBO in order to have certainty about their dates, then we will have the same problem when the next land manager decides to follow suit and require a permit for a date certain. I could easily see most of the state parks along the trail requiring reservations for fixed dates once BSP sets the example. It would take many years to coordinate all those separate authorities to respect a unified permit system, so expect to have to make reservations and pay fees in most if not all of the 14 states on the trail.
BirdBrain
08-03-2015, 21:26
Ignorance is a terrible thing to suffer from. One should get some points for admitting ignorance. I gain more respect for the AMC as this debate rages on. I still prefer the MATC and DOC. However, I am much more mindful of the challenges they face. It took my love for our park to open my eyes to that ignorance. As issues spread to other parks, that awakening will infect many more people. We must do all we can to have numbers be the primary issue these parks face. If we allow behaviour to be a focus, then the parks will not be so inclined to be concerned with our vacations. Dealing with trouble makers will make the tough decisions much easier for them. They will have a reason to not worry how rule changes affect us.
Another Kevin
08-03-2015, 21:39
Ignorance is a terrible thing to suffer from. One should get some points for admitting ignorance. I gain more respect for the AMC as this debate rages on. I still prefer the MATC and DOC. However, I am much more mindful of the challenges they face.
It's important to bear in mind that AMC in the Whites doesn't make policy, they're just tasked with enforcing it (with no real enforcement authority). Virtually all of the White Mountain hassles that the hikers ascribe to the AMC are actually laid on them by the USFS. (USFS faces all the challenges that you imagine, and then some.)
Someone said its a numbers thing. I am just wondering how many thru are impacting K and the park. Is there any documentation. Other numbers say only 25 percent make it. I don't understand the great impact considering other parks like SNP GSMNP see a 1000000 guest each year. I don't have a clue as to how many thru s get there and I do realize this is a state park.
MuddyWaters
08-03-2015, 23:41
Someone said its a numbers thing. I am just wondering how many thru are impacting K and the park. Is there any documentation. Other numbers say only 25 percent make it. I don't understand the great impact considering other parks like SNP GSMNP see a 1000000 guest each year. I don't have a clue as to how many thru s get there and I do realize this is a state park.
They have room for 12 long distance AT hikers nobo per day, without reservations
They have had more than 40 show up some days
Pretty simple
Thruhikers are free to make reservations for KS, but you need to do that in advance for aug-sept.
Do away with the priveleges, and hikers will find their own solutions.
Appalachian Trail Thru-Hiker Voluntary Registration (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hiking/thru-hike-registration)
.
Leave No Trace Practices (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hiking/hiking-basics/leave-no-trace-practices)
.
Leave No Trace (https://lnt.org/)
.
Trail Karma (http://www.trailkarma.com/)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI0-rUHorj8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC-3Z1tf54A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQfyT4H_NPw
Lone Wolf
08-04-2015, 06:15
They have room for 12 long distance AT hikers nobo per day, without reservations
They have had more than 40 show up some days
Pretty simple
Thruhikers are free to make reservations for KS, but you need to do that in advance for aug-sept.
Do away with the priveleges, and hikers will find their own solutions.
yup. pretty simple
yup. pretty simple
Nope.
If a significant number of NOBOs start competing for reserved spots, the largely workable system will spiral out of control.
The only spots to reserve are 4 to 6 person sites.
As they become even harder to get, the "responsible" thru hikers will look to reserve farther and farther south on the AT. Good in theory, but when you have a bunch of thru hikers signing up for their own private site you are not only using those sites inefficiently, you are competing with the traditional user who aspires to enjoy Katahdin.
Out of 5000+ thru hikers even a small percentage who elect to reserve spots as early as Gorham, or even Harper's Ferry or before would turn the reservation process into a cluster **** for everyone-- thru hikers and non-thru hikers alike.
The Birches serves a purpose for Thru Hikers to be sure. But it is also important in other ways.