Appalachian Trail Institute

[warren doyle]

'Not Even Close' (a.k.a. Almost There) #244 - Not to 'avoid' your post, but read my lips: "I do not think I am a consummate hiker."

rickboudrie #248 - Question #1 - Answer-NO
Question #2 - I inform them of internet resources such as Whiteblaze. However, all it takes to learn about the Expedition is to attend a screening of 'Circle of Dreams' or attend my slide/music AT presentation. The AT community does not revolve around Whiteblaze (thank goodness). There will be info on the 2010 Appalachian Trail Circle Expedition on my website by June.

[Almost There]

You just illustrated my point perfectly, Mr. Avoidance!! You can say you don't see yourself as a consumate hiker but your words all over WB say otherwise! Here in your fabled response from the other day is just a sampling of what you think of yourself.


I started backpacking before you were even born; whether it was the Appalachian Trail, Long Trail, Pennine Way, Wonderland Trail, parts of the Allegheny Trail, the Range Trail, the John Muir Trail, the Grand Tetons circuit and some sections of the PCT. I know how to backpack and to day hike.


Where exactly were you going with the above quote? Humble is not a word to describe you!


Until the completion rate of those traditionally prepared, or WB prepared, hikers approaches the 75% completion rate of the ATI graduates (and it has a long way to go from 20%), I will then reconsider the 'cost' to attend the ATI.
This concept is nothing new. The first universities were formed by 'traveling scholars' who voluntarily treked to European cities and voluntarily paid wise and experienced people to share their reliable and valid wisdom based on their actual experience.
If I wanted to know about Yosemite, I would have loved to have attended a seminar run by John Muir. Some other examples in like-minded vein:
college women basketball - Pat Summitt
non-violent civil disobedience - Gandhi, Thoreau, King


You can deny but anyone can see you are comparing your ability to prepare hikers for a through hike, with the knowledge that John Muir had on Yosemite, or the ways in which Gandhi, Thoreau, or Dr. King practiced civil disobedience. It is also obvious that you believe your abilities to prepare hikers surpasses all who are on here. Of course if we misunderstood or you mistyped you will not apologize as some of us do, rather you will deny or cleverly come up with some other dig at me ala "Not even Close."

[Heater]

Warning!

Advertisement in the following post!


'Not Even Close' (a.k.a. Almost There) #244 - Not to 'avoid' your post, but read my lips: "I do not think I am a consummate hiker."

rickboudrie #248 - Question #1 - Answer-NO
Question #2 - I inform them of internet resources such as Whiteblaze. However, all it takes to learn about the Expedition is to attend a screening of 'Circle of Dreams' or attend my slide/music AT presentation. The AT community does not revolve around Whiteblaze (thank goodness). There will be info on the 2010 Appalachian Trail Circle Expedition on my website by June.

Spammer.

[Sly]

LOL.. Mr. Avoidance. Questions, fees and theater tickets.

[Almost There]

Ha good one Sly! BTW did you see I have been named Interngator?

[weary]

....In other words, the guy doing it for five years could be better at it than the guy who's done it for 30 years. .... when you stair down your nose at us younger guys, who call you into question, it is insulting. What if I was over fifty would it be o.k.? Your first post directed at me pointed out you had been hiking long before I was born, not quite, but I see your point, age matters more to you (Warren Doyle)...than intelligence.
There are a number of ways to acquire information -- reading, observing, talking, experience.... I suspect all in combination are most useful. Intelligence helps one evaluate what one discerns from reading, observing, talking, and experience. But intelligence without a levening of knowledge is pretty useless, don't you think, Almost There.

I find experience most useful. And I suspect that Warren also finds experience, coupled with the ability to reason and think, most useful in the hierachy of things leading to knowledge about the trail, long distance hiking and the successful completion of a thru hike.

I suspect age means little to Warren. I know it means nothing to me. Whatever trail knowledge I have stems from practice, experience and reason. Of course, White Blaze offers an occasional bit of new knowledge, but even that has to be balanced by knowledge of the trail and it's real challenges, as opposed to the mythical challenges that so many talk and speculate about so endlessly.

Weary

[Sly]

Yup, saw that. Kudos!

[Almost There]

Weary I couldn't agree with you more. Experience can be useful when coupled with intelligence. Warren specifically leveled an age related comment at me. Also let's call it meaningful experience, as some experience events but don't really learn anything from them, merely passing time, (I see some everyday they're called high school students). It's good that age does not mean anything to you, it doesn't mean much to me. What matters to me is someone who conducts themselves with intelligence, decorum, and the ability to admit when they have been wrong coupled with the ability to apologize. You, Weary, appear such a person, as you put your point out there in a manner in which there is no attempt at self promotion, etc. The funny thing is we may disagree on Mr. Doyle, I don't completely know your feelings, but if we're open minded we can learn from each other...and get along! Oh Krap a Kumbayah moment!

[the goat]

LOL, just saw your new signature, Almost There, funny stuff......:D

[weary]

Weary I couldn't agree with you more. Experience can be useful when coupled with intelligence. Warren specifically leveled an age related comment at me. Also let's call it meaningful experience, as some experience events but don't really learn anything from them, merely passing time, (I see some everyday they're called high school students). It's good that age does not mean anything to you, it doesn't mean much to me. What matters to me is someone who conducts themselves with intelligence, decorum, and the ability to admit when they have been wrong coupled with the ability to apologize. You, Weary, appear such a person, as you put your point out there in a manner in which there is no attempt at self promotion, etc. The funny thing is we may disagree on Mr. Doyle, I don't completely know your feelings, but if we're open minded we can learn from each other...and get along! Oh Krap a Kumbayah moment!
That's okay. We all have them. When they happen to me, I make amends by sending a check to the Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust.

Weary www.matlt.org

[Alligator]

That's okay. We all have them. When they happen to me, I make amends by sending a check to the Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust.

Weary www.matlt.org (http://www.matlt.org)
That was your best pitch yet Weary.

[Almost There]

Hey Goat!
Thinking of changing my trail name from Almost There to Internegator, that way when people ask I can say I received my trail name....from the "Great" Warren Doyle!

[rickb]

Warren's ATI students enjoy such a remarkable success rate that one of teo things must be going on:


1. Since ATI students are a self-selected sample, these folks must possess greater strength (physical and mental) or determination or health or wealth which enable them to succeed at a rate that is 4 or 5X greater than the typical prospective thru hiker.

or,

2. His ATI students leave his class with tools, attitudes or information which enables them to succeed at a rate that is 4 or 5 times greater than the typical thru hiker.

Either way, if I were looking at starting a thru hike (and accepted the premise that a completed thru hike is a worthy goal and that completing a hike would likely be personally more satisfying than not), I would see if I couldn't figure what's up.

Either way internegating wouldn't provide the answers.

[TJ aka Teej]

Comment:

In my long an storied Internet browsing career, I have read just one post from an individual who identified himself as an ATI participant, and no posts from any individual who identified himself as circle member.

Warren Doyle's 100% Completion Rate 2005 Circle Expedition consisted of Warren, Mrs Warren, and... (wait for it) one other person. I'd say the odds are slim we ever hear from Mrs Warren (what with Warren haunting the Internet day and night) or from the other member of the "Circle".

"Three? That's not a circle. Dude, that's hardly a line." - an official Internegatorian.

Congrats on yet another "100%"er, Warren!

[max patch]

Warren's ATI students enjoy such a remarkable success rate that one of teo things must be going on:


1. Since ATI students are a self-selected sample, these folks must possess greater strength (physical and mental) or determination or health or wealth which enable them to succeed at a rate that is 4 or 5X greater than the typical prospective thru hiker.

or,

2. His ATI students leave his class with tools, attitudes or information which enables them to succeed at a rate that is 4 or 5 times greater than the typical thru hiker.

Either way, if I were looking at starting a thru hike (and accepted the premise that a completed thru hike is a worthy goal and that completing a hike would likely be personally more satisfying than not), I would see if I couldn't figure what's up.

Either way internegating wouldn't provide the answers.

or,

3. carrying only an apple and a pint of water in a fanny pack and hiking road crossing to road crossing to a van with the rest of your gear is much, much, easier than being self sufficient and carrying all your gear weighing 20-30-40-50 (pick your number) pounds in your backpack.

answer is clear to me.

[Jack Tarlin]

While he may not have been caught describing himself as a "consumate" hiker,ca quick study of Mr. Doyle's website reveals alleged letters from folks who compare him to Thoreau, describe him as "the most complete man I ever met," and refer to his footsteps as "the truest footprint I've ever followed."

Egotism gone amok.

I also question Mr. Doyle's nasty crack about folks who've yet to hike the Trail, implying that their opinion or contributions are valueless because they "haven't walked the walk." This smug comment is as arrogant as it is wrong.

He's right about one thing: There are folks here who've never thru-hiked, but perhaps they've got personal or outdoor experience going back decades, that Mr. Doyle knows nothing about. The fact that they've yet to complete an Appalachian Trail thru-hike does NOT mean that they've nothing to contribute here.

And considering that more than half of Doyle's own miles were achieved with either the help of a support vehicle, or during a speed "record" hike, it's more than a little ridiculous for him to get on his high horse and lecture other folks on "walking the walk" and hiking the Trail.

Most people "walk the walk" on their own, without a van. Mr. Doyle is uncomfortable acknowledging this simple fact, but it remains true in any case.

I can't help but note that NOWHERE on his personal website amidst the crowing about his resume, miles, or number of journeys, does he mention either the frequent presence of a helping vehicle, or the absence of a backpack. Fact is, when most people "walk the walk," they DON'T do the miles the way he's done most of his.

But forget about his braggodiccio or mis-leading boasts. That's not what I really wanted to concentrate on. What I really wanted to say was this: I'd like to go on record as saying that some of the wisest and most useful things I've learned on Whiteblaze have come from folks who haven't yet thru-hiked, may never thru-hike, or who have no intention of doing so. For Mr. Doyle or anyone else to so smugly dismiss their opinions and ideas is nothing more than arrogance and rampant egotism, and I hope his comments and attitude don't offend or drive away newcomers or those with limited hiking experience; it'd be horrible if folks thought his viewpoint was widely held, and it'd be a shame if folks held back their comments because they feel they haven't yet hiked enough to share their thoughts or ideas.

Their thoughts are as valid as anyone else's here, and speaking for myself, I welcome them and look forward to them.

[Almost There]

Jack does that mean you are an internegator too? I wonder if I could sell the shirts at Trail Days. Just kidding, we would have to give them away for free! Anyways, you make some very valid points, I was on his websit the other day and read some of those "Love" letters to Mr. Doyle. BTW doesn't her pick which letters go up on the site...if that's the case, then isn't he sort of putting it out there that he is in a similiar vein as those great people he is compared too? Yes, Warren, I realize you didn't compare yourself!

[weary]

While he may not have been caught describing himself as a "consumate" hiker, a quick study of Mr. Doyle's website reveals alleged letters from folks who compare him to Thoreau, describe him as "the most complete man I ever met," and refer to his footsteps as "the truest footprint I've ever followed." ..... Egotism gone amok.
Jack. At last we are getting to the meat of this issue. You truly are an investigative reporter to disclose this perfidy. To think a website devoted to encouraging people to attend his parttime trail Institute has the gall to praise the Institute's founder and instructor.

I'm truly shocked. Has Warren no shame. No legitimate school would ever do that would they? There's a school in Hanover, Jack. Why don't you run over and check.

Weary

[awol]

Awol would gladly give ten bucks, maybe fifteen for a internegator shirt!

[rickb]

TJ--

Warren's programs go back decades, as does his sample. He has helped many score realize their dreams directly. Indirectly? You tell me how many have hiked the trail because of the organizations he has founded-- including the ALDHA.


Max Patch--

Many (if not most) of Warren's ATI students hike with a full pack. If he is now preaching that these unsupported ATI alumni hike with just an apple and a fanny pack, the 75% completion rate would be even more remarkable. However to my knowledge, he is not an ultralight zealot and probably almost certainly recommend a simply no trendy backpack.

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, Weary, I know there's a school in Hanover, and oddly enough, I'm not overly impressed with Dartmouth and Dartmouth students either, and I encounter dozens of them every day.

My dad, who graduated a better-known school in 1937, once remarked that in his day, Dartmouth was considered the intellectual basement of the Ivy League, and was widely laughed at for being "the only school in the League where the Gymnasium was larger than their Library."

I'm not convinced that seventy years have changed much.

And no, Weary, I'm not surprised that a significant portion of the website you mention is devoted to embarrassingly gushing testimonials about its administrator.

Franky, I'd have been surprised if it were otherwise.

Oh, and it's time for another history lesson, Weary. Dartmouth was founded by the Reverend Eleazar Wheelock in 1769, who was interested in providing sound Christian education for young Native Americans. This was not his first school, either; he'd previously done the same thing at Moor's Charity School, in Lebanon Connecticut. Many, if not most of his early students at Dartmouth were charity cases, i.e. scholarship cases, i.e. their education was provided gratis. In other words, free.

I wasn't aware that Mr. Doyle's Institute was founded to provide its services for free, Weary.

Still wanna compare it to Dartmouth?

Didn't think so.

[smokymtnsteve]

PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!

"The missionaries go forth to Christianize the savages--as if the savages weren't dangerous enough already."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

[Skidsteer]

.

He's right about one thing: There are folks here who've never thru-hiked, but perhaps they've got personal or outdoor experience going back decades, that Mr. Doyle knows nothing about. The fact that they've yet to complete an Appalachian Trail thru-hike does NOT mean that they've nothing to contribute here.

That's a fair desciption of me, I'd say. I've spent virtually all of my life in pursuits( work, play, etc. )that are by necessity conducted outside. Much of what I learned in this outdoor life transfers very handily to backpacking. The vast majority of my "leisure time" for the last four years has been spent hiking, and yes, I was at least annoyed and nearly insulted by Mr. Doyle's remarks. The reason I have not thru-hiked is because I have other obligations for the moment-not because I lack the necessary skills, money, education, experience, drive, etc.


[/quote]Their thoughts are as valid as anyone else's here, and speaking for myself, I welcome them and look forward to them.[/quote]

Thank you Jack, I appreciate that.

[rickb]

I also question Mr. Doyle's nasty crack about folks who've yet to hike the Trail, implying that their opinion or contributions are valueless because they "haven't walked the walk." This smug comment is as arrogant as it is wrong.

Best advise I got regarding a thru hike was from a thru hiker.

YMMV.

[Alligator]

Rick, I think it is a mixture of both #1 and #2. We'll never really know unless we were to randomly assign prospective thrus to the ATI and some other methods.

In all fairness, $300 is not a lot of money for a five day program with food. Some of the training that I have attended in the past cost that much per day. I imagine that Warren, along with any multiple thru hiker, would have a lot to offer in regard to tips and planning. Even being steered in the correct direction regarding gear choice could save at least 1/2 of that $300. Everyone has different learning styles. IMO, working hands on and face to face is a very good way to learn, and is often better than at some distance. It could be the right choice for some people. I thought I ought to say that. I hope it doesn't go to your head Warren;) . I, in fact, took a backpacking class offered as a gym class at a community college. The instructor was a wrestling coach.

Of course, you could hook up with an experienced WB hiker too. I'm taking applications for my next ATI--Alligator Training Institute. It's for prospective section hikers. You must either smoke (no cigars), drink adult beverages, play cards, leave camp late, headlamp into camp, stay up late, burn the campfire to ashes, or be willing to learn or not be offended by these activities. Wood gathering ability and a shuttle vehicle is a must. People without earplugs or a coarse sense of humor need not apply. Testimonials to follow.

What I think would be interesting would be if all those WB hikers who are listed as the class of 2006 could drop us a line at the end of the season and tell us did they start and did they finish. A mandatory requirement though should be a posted gear list and estimated funds.

[Almost There]

Alligator...sign me up!!! Although i am trying to quit smoking, hope you won't disqualify me!!!

[smokymtnsteve]

sign me up to alligator,,cept I don't need the earplugs,,,,

and no adult beverages..but can I subsitute a adult smoke??? :clap

[Alligator]

Alligator...sign me up!!! Although i am trying to quit smoking, hope you won't disqualify me!!!

Smoking is completely optional. Internegators receive a 20% discount.

SMS-No cigars, no blunts, no other restrictions on smoking. It would be barbaric to prohibit somebody's medicine.

[warren doyle]

Alligator #278 - Interesting post.
One correction though.
The ATI is a four-day program (not five-day).

[smokymtnsteve]

esp since my medicine is LEGAL in the state of MAINE :banana

[Alligator]

Sorry thought it was five. It's still inexpensive.

For the record, the Alligator Training Institute is in no way affiliated with the Goat Institute. We emphasize cooperation (pass the lighter), courtesy (room at the campfire), comraderie (SALUD), and of course cards (NO CHEATING). On a case by case basis, we may allow dual credit.

If by chance you confuse the Alligator Training Institute with the Appalachian Trail Institute one clean urine sample will be provided at no charge. The first days class covering wood gathering should however clue you in.

[Almost There]

WooHOO!!! 20% OFF!!! I am soooo there!!!

[weary]

....Oh, and it's time for another history lesson, Weary. Dartmouth was founded by the Reverend Eleazar Wheelock in 1769, who was interested in providing sound Christian education for young Native Americans. This was not his first school, either; he'd previously done the same thing at Moor's Charity School, in Lebanon Connecticut. Many, if not most of his early students at Dartmouth were charity cases, i.e. scholarship cases, i.e. their education was provided gratis. In other words, free.
I wasn't aware that Mr. Doyle's Institute was founded to provide its services for free, Weary.
Still wanna compare it to Dartmouth?
Didn't think so.
Well, Jack. I'm not too influenced by the early histories of these Ivy League schools. Afterall, Harvard, accepted Henry Thoreau. Partly as a charity student, partly through the tuition paid by several maiden aunts. His parents were too poor to help significantly. But you tell me he spent the rest of his life sponging off his parents, and refusing to work.

But then he did write a book that is still being taught in American Lit. classes, and still being sold in most book stores -- including those I patronize in the three small towns that surround me.

I wonder how he managed that -- a sponge who never worked, you say?

Anyway, Harvard seems to have moved beyond those early mistakes. You say Dartmough hasn't?

Weary

[Almost There]

Weary,

Sort of poor logic, Adolph Hitler wrote a book, and people still read it, it's still sold in book stores, and some professors use it in their courses.

Thoreau was an original thinker. Personally, reading his book in high school I wasn't that impressed with it, although I could appreciate some of the questions that he provoked in me. I much preferred Emerson.

Van Gogh was a bum, who after he died was declared brilliant, and Edgar Allen Poe was a drug addict, who also attended West Point. Just because someone's works are regarded as great or original doesn't mean the man himself was a great or even good man.

Many consider Andrew Jackson to have been a great general and president, but I think and hope that most of us would find what he did to the Cherokee, Choctaws, etc. to be not only deplorable and heinous, but also unconstitutional. In today's America he would have been impeached for such actions, defying a treaty found to be constitutional by the Supreme Court, ignored the separation of powers inherent in the Constitution.

I wouldn't start with a man's works but rather how he lived his life!

[weary]

Weary,

Sort of poor logic, Adolph Hitler wrote a book, and people still read it, it's still sold in book stores, and some professors use it in their courses.

Thoreau was an original thinker. Personally, reading his book in high school I wasn't that impressed with it, although I could appreciate some of the questions that he provoked in me. I much preferred Emerson.

Van Gogh was a bum, who after he died was declared brilliant, and Edgar Allen Poe was a drug addict, who also attended West Point. Just because someone's works are regarded as great or original doesn't mean the man himself was a great or even good man.

Many consider Andrew Jackson to have been a great general and president, but I think and hope that most of us would find what he did to the Cherokee, Choctaws, etc. to be not only deplorable and heinous, but also unconstitutional. In today's America he would have been impeached for such actions, defying a treaty found to be constitutional by the Supreme Court, ignored the separation of powers inherent in the Constitution.

I wouldn't start with a man's works but rather how he lived his life!

It's my suspeicion that Henry is read more today than all those you mention put together. But all I was suggesting to Jack, was that Thoreau wrote one of the seminal books of American Literature and that rarely happens without some work.

With the possible exception of Hitler, Thoreau is certainly the only author you list read widely by ordinary people outside the halls of academia. The reason, of course, is how he lived his life. He was not a sponge, despite Jack's misconceptions. He paid rent to his parents who ran a boarding house, from his graduation from Harvard until he died. His contributions to the family business made them moderately prosperous by the time he died.

WEary

[Almost There]

Weary,

Fair enough, you always post in a thoughtful way, even if we don't always agree on the point. I will give Thoreau this however, he did live his life the way he wanted to do, much as many of the thru hiking community does, and I think if we live our lives based upon what makes us happy vs. what society dictates should make us happy then can we really ask for anything more?

[weary]

Weary,

Fair enough, you always post in a thoughtful way, even if we don't always agree on the point. I will give Thoreau this however, he did live his life the way he wanted to do, much as many of the thru hiking community does, and I think if we live our lives based upon what makes us happy vs. what society dictates should make us happy then can we really ask for anything more?
Jack gets upset when I say it, but his being able to hike many weeks and months year after year comes closer to the life Thoreau lived than anyone I know, who is not independently wealthy.

[smokymtnsteve]

Jack gets upset when I say it, but his being able to hike many weeks and months year after year comes closer to the life Thoreau lived than anyone I know, who is not independently wealthy.

yea but jack don't make no pencils do he?

[gpsblake]

$300 bucks for a 4 day class isn't all that bad. And considering how much a thru generally cost, isn't really that much money.

And I'm sure everyone who pays to thru-hike with Warren knows full well the support or lack of they are going to receive. There is no deception at all on his website as others are trying to claim either indirectly or directly.

My impression is dozens if not 100's of people have been helped by Doyle's experiences. I be willing to bet that the people that have paid to thru-hike with him would have never done it any other way.

And as far as criticizing him for running a small business, many others like Miss Janet also run small businesses profiting off the AT. Outfitters do. Hostels do. Even a lot of the non-profit AT groups like ALDHA pay salaries to people. The ME ATC pays $400 a week for caretakers. (Evidence: http://www.matc.org/matcjobs.htm )


So there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, if not for these businesses and people making money off the AT, it would hinder people from ever thru-hikings.

I would bet that Doyle only makes a small fraction of money for his AT efforts. Especially when compared to a lot of other people.

One person even pointed this out by saying he thru-hiked with only other person last year. Surely if that is the case, Doyle didn't make a lot of money on that did he considering his time now did he? Well below minimum hourly wage I would suspect.

I know if I have a question on this forum, Doyle would answer it online for me, free of charge.

[Almost There]

GPSBlake,

Warren...aw, hell....I'll leave this one alone.

[Internegator]

Hey Goat!
Thinking of changing my trail name from Almost There to Internegator, that way when people ask I can say I received my trail name....from the "Great" Warren Doyle!

Better make that Internegator II. :D
:banana

[Nokia]

Warren hiked with atleasy 8 other folks this summer. I imagine he makes a pretty good wage doing it. And good for him. People know about all other options for learning about the trail. Hell most folks probably learn about the Institute here or at trailjournals. And they don't mind paying for the class. I could teach myself how to blow glass, but I'd rather pay $300 to give myself the advantage of learning correctly.

[Alligator]

Better make that Internegator II. :D
:banana
That's ****ed up. ROTFLMAO!

[Internegator]

Warren hiked with atleasy 8 other folks this summer.

You call what he does hiking? :-?

[Nean]

It may not be backpacking but yes it is hiking.

And get it right, lets not confuse things. It's a tangerine (perhaps an orange), NOT an apple. sheesh:p

[Tha Wookie]

You call what he does hiking? :-?

I do. It's thousands of miles more than you have done. Probably tens of thousands.

In fact, he probably has more miles than you with his pack on anyway.

He probably has more miles than you while brushing his teeth.

He probably has more miles than you barefoot.

He probably has more miles than you backwards.

The fact is, he's in a league of AT hiking experience that no one on this site is even close to reaching.

And that evidently bothers some people. REAL bad.

Yet all it does is give Warren's school more publicity. Take some notes, and notice how many miles he's gotten out of this thread.:D

[Almost There]

I gotta give Wookie this, he is right, and even with what I have said I have always said that he has definitely accomplished something most have not. What seemed to get him going was the fact that I discussed the fact that both hiking and backpacking the AT are great accomplishments but different. I also have admitted that I know Warren has thru hiked without support and yes with a backpack. I won't make up stuff about him, his problem is that if the truth looks at all negative then you are attacking him for saying it. I am beginning to think Wook might be right as there is a part of me that thinks he knows exactly what he is doing and he is loving this. I think he actually says stuff with double meanings so that he can deny one meaning to piss off a bunch of us. There is no doubt that Mr. Doyle is an intelligent person, unfortunately he also has some other habits...that just sorta grate on you.

[orangebug]

One doesn't have to be particularly intelligent to hike the AT in any number of the possible ways. One does need some sort of strategy to stay on task.

This thread demonstrates that there are several "on task" - but not always involving hiking their own hike, but bashing other people's hikes.

Let it go and let him do his business. The market place will decide if there is benefit in it.

[Almost There]

When friends start to tell me to let it go, I have to give merit to what they say. Perhaps, my surliness is a response from the nicotine withdrawal I am going through right now. Often we think things but it's not really worth it to say. You are right fellas about hiking your own hike. I preach it but the past few days haven't walked it. I can be a big boy and own up. I wish everyone could, but alas that won't happen. Regardless, I am keeping my Interegator title as I earned it!!! In the future when I decide to comment it won't be about how someone particularly hikes. I still feel the way I feel, but I have decided that this isn't the place for it. Lone Wolf is right I have spent way to much time on a person who's philosophies don't jive with mine. Besides if I keep this up no one will want to hike with me!:D

[Tha Wookie]

When friends start to tell me to let it go, I have to give merit to what they say.

Let it go. Friend:D

[Dances with Mice]

Perhaps, my surliness is a response from the nicotine withdrawal I am going through right now. 24th day and I'm still carrying enough cash to make bond if needed.

[Almost There]

Well, you definitely have to give it merit when a wookie tells you to do so!:D It is gone my friend...it is gone!

[Almost There]

Dances,

It's not the funnest thing in the world you have ever done...is it?:-?

[Dances with Mice]

Dances, It's not the funnest thing in the world you have ever done...is it?:-?I don't want to talk about it, alright? Just drop it. OK? I mean, SHUT UP! It's people like you that just make me want to...

Backpack. You still OK for the 11th?

[Almost There]

Yeah, I think I should still be good, the only kink in my plan might be if one of my wrestlers goes to state. As young as the team is, this is an outside shot at best. So I should be good to head up to Springer Saturday afternoon.

[Mags]

Well, Jack. I'm not too influenced by the early histories of these Ivy League schools.

Gotta love these little Internet chats. Now are discussing Ivy League Schools. :)

I know my great-grandfather did some stone work around Brown University ~90 yrs ago. Whadda I get? ;)

[Lone Wolf]

My step-grandfather was the captain of the Brown football team way back when.

[Mags]

Even a lot of the non-profit AT groups like ALDHA pay salaries to people.

Just to clarify , ALDHA does not pay salaries to anyone. It is a strictly volunteer group. ALDHA may reimburse expenses (e.g. for web hosting, food at the meetings, etc.) but does not pay a salary to anyone.

[weary]

Gotta love these little Internet chats. Now are discussing Ivy League Schools. :)
I know my great-grandfather did some stone work around Brown University ~90 yrs ago. Whadda I get? ;)
I went to the University of Illinois, mostly because back in the 50s the Illinois law said they had to accept any resident with a high school diploma. However, it didn't hurt that Illinois then had no tuition.

Illinois weeded out most of those whose only qualification was a diploma the first semester with a course called, "reading, writing and thinking." Luckily, I convinced them that a night school class I had taken at another school in Chicago was the equivalent and I eventually graduated -- the first on either side of my family to do so except an uncle who graduated from Ivy League Bowdoin. None of his brothers went beyond the eighth grade.

Later my sister and my mother graduated -- both the same year. WE tend to bloom late and live long in my family in case anyone thinks I may disappear soon.

Weary

[Jack Tarlin]

Geez, Wook I just LOVED your post #296.

It was perhaps the most extraordinary bit of rump-swabbing I've seen here in months.

So nobody here is in Warren's League? Actually, I can think of several folks here whose knowledge or expertise regarding the Trail equals his.....Lone Wolf, for example. Or Nean. And there are certainly folks with more extensive backpacking experience: How about Wolf23000, who has 5 A.T. thru-hikes, 3 PCT thru-hikes, 5 Long Trail thru-hikes, and has also hiked the PCT?

I can think of many others who are "in his league" who don't bother to hang out on the Internet, or at least not at Whiteblaze . Seiko comes to mind. So does Ward Leonard, or Tom Horn, or Jim Owen. Or for that matter, Dan Bruce, who still possesses encyclopedic knowledge even if he hasn't thru-hiked in years. And there are others who nobody here has ever heard of.

There are also plenty of folks here who've only thru-hiked once or perhaps a few times, whose opinions regarding backpacking I hold in the highest regard, folks like Peaks or Mags or Sly, or, hell, even YOU, Wookie.

What I DON'T think, unlike your hero, is that someone's opinion is valueless if they haven't yet thru-hiked, nor do I think there's anything particularly noteworthy about hiking 15,000 with vehicular support. This might make one a reknowned day-hiker, but why you seem to think this adds to one's reputation as a backpacker escapes me.

In short, Wook, I don't think ANY hiker is in "a league of their own", and it's a mistake for any hiker to think this of themself or to think it of anyone else.

This sort of idol worship tends to exalt the unworthy, and it reflects poorly on the worshipper as well.

Now for heaven's sake, Wook, go clean your nose. There's a nasty smudge on it.

[bulldog49]

Backpacking "ain't" rocket science.

Take a few hikes, read a few books, hang out on Whiteblaze and you can pretty much learn all you need to know without forking over $400 bucks to listen to some self-inflated egotist.

By the way, when was Bowdoin ever in the Ivy League?

[Tha Wookie]

I knew that post would just be too much for you to bear Jack.

I'll replay for those who missed it:

"The fact is, he's in a league of AT hiking experience that no one on this site is even close to reaching.

And that evidently bothers some people. REAL bad."

I seems to bother no one more than you, Jack.

But it's the truth.

Let it go, Jack.

[Almost There]

Jack gotta be fair, I think Wook respects Warren, but I wouldn't say he worships or idolizes him. I think he's more curious about the dislike, etc., especially if I remember a discussion at the SoRuck I had with him and Weathercarrot, and actually nobody was nasty during that entire conversation we had, were they Wook?

[MOWGLI]

Jack gotta be fair, I think Wook respects Warren, but I wouldn't say he worships or idolizes him. I think he's more curious about the dislike, etc., especially if I remember a discussion at the SoRuck I had with him and Weathercarrot, and actually nobody was nasty during that entire conversation we had, were they Wook?

The nastiness is an internet phenomenon, not a trail phenomenon. And thank goodness for that!

And I don't think Tha Wookie is "curious" about anything related to the animosity displayed towards Warren. Like me, the curiosity phase ended several years ago.

[Almost There]

Actually Jeff, the discussion did sort of float around the topic for a few minutes, I remember because it was just the three of us. Well, actually it was more Wook asking Carrot some questions and I only chimed in a couple of times, being the least knowledgeable about the specific topic being discussed and Carrot being the most knowledgeable. I just sat and listened for the most part. Regardless, I do get what you are trying to say, and I do respect you point of view, and in that vein if you notice I haven't launched a negative statement all day long. BTW never said it, but I enjoyed your presentation at the SoRuck immensely, keep up the good fight!

[Nean]

If not for his EGO and attitude about some issues everyone would love Warren. and I can see why Wook has a hard time seeing this.;) WD, Ray, Wook, BR....bless your hearts:) I will say this too, I think it is wonderful that WD can be WD, etc., etc.

Jack gotta be fair, I think Wook respects Warren, but I wouldn't say he worships or idolizes him. I think he's more curious about the dislike, etc., especially if I remember a discussion at the SoRuck I had with him and Weathercarrot, and actually nobody was nasty during that entire conversation we had, were they Wook?

[Frosty]

Jack gotta be fair, I think Wook respects Warren, but I wouldn't say he worships or idolizes him. I think he's more curious about the dislike, etc., especially if I remember a discussion at the SoRuck I had with him and Weathercarrot, and actually nobody was nasty during that entire conversation we had, were they Wook?Face to face conversations are always better than online ones. It is easy to over-react or overspeak yourself online.

I try to be pleasant (yes, it's true!) but the words are often the wrong ones, on the meaning (or interpretation) sometimes gets skewed. What ought to be mildly humorous comes out harsh.

And that is trying to be nice. When someone is trying to be nasty via the internet, the results turn out to be pretty vicious.

[Tha Wookie]

Actually Jeff, the discussion did sort of float around the topic for a few minutes, I remember because it was just the three of us. Well, actually it was more Wook asking Carrot some questions and I only chimed in a couple of times, being the least knowledgeable about the specific topic being discussed and Carrot being the most knowledgeable. I just sat and listened for the most part. Regardless, I do get what you are trying to say, and I do respect you point of view, and in that vein if you notice I haven't launched a negative statement all day long. BTW never said it, but I enjoyed your presentation at the SoRuck immensely, keep up the good fight!

Yes, BTW, Jeff's presentation at SO Ruck was EXCELLENT! Everyone was hanging on the edge of their seats seeing the trails link together slide after slide. Very good stuff! I hope they let me get involved out west!

About that conversation, it was very pleasant, but Weather ccarrot is always pleasant as far as I can tell. He doesn't get vile on the net either. the only reason we were talking about it is because I had made a remark a while back that the public stoning of ALDHA's founder, Warren Doyle, issued in the name of ALDHA's Endangered Services Campaign by several foks on this site, was a major turn-off for hikers like myself to joining ALDHA or attending a Gathering.

He was assuring me that in person, at least, ALDHA is not represented by the ones on this site out for Doyle blood, and that I would really get a lot out of a Gathering. I.e., "don't let the net turn you off to ALDHA."

In truth, it never has. I have always known that ALDHA and ALDHA-west, unless you are a founder (Warren and Ray Jardine, respectively), is a very warm and pleasant place to be. How could it not? Hikers together in the name of hiking community? sounds like my kind of thing.

However, as I said long ago that prompted the discussion, the problem isn't ALDHA at all. It's the sad fact that a few people would make it look so bad so publicly on a site that gets thousands of hits a day, from people who have never backpacked to the lurking greats. It is dragging an internal battle into the streets, with its pants down. It's plain ugly. And the only reason I care about it is because I care deeply about the hiking community. We are a family in a sense, and just because gramps might be a little senile from time to time doesn't mean you kick him out into the street. Instead, you think about how he got you where he did, in all the experience and hard work you'll never know, and honor his seniority. It doesn't mean you have to agree, but show some respect is all I say!

If that doesn't happen, we will have to add on an Endangered ALDHA Campaign, because outfighting is not a sustainable practice.

[MOWGLI]

Almost There & Tha Wookie:

Thanks for the compliments about the program at SORUCK. If either of you know of any potential audiences for a program in your home states, please send me a PM. I'm always looking for a new group of folks to talk to about trails here in the SE.

[Nean]

I have always known that ALDHA and ALDHA-west, unless you are a founder (Warren and Ray Jardine, respectively), is a very warm and pleasant place to be. How could it not? Hikers together in the name of hiking community? sounds like my kind of thing.


Mr. Jardine did not found ALDHA-West. And it is not the fact of the matter that bothers me, it is the total disregard of those who did.

[rickb]

Nobody here is in Warren's League? Actually, I can think of several folks here whose knowledge or expertise regarding the Trail equals his.....


Warren is in a unique category. And not just because he has hiked 35,000 miles on the AT.

1. He was a trailblazer, not a follower. He leaned from the trail before it became a paint-by-the numbers experience preprogrammed by the "experts".

2. Experience on the AT that spans 4 decades. Everything changes, but seeing those changes has the potential to create wisdom.

3. He has hiked it more ways than most-- speed hike, slackpack, traditional. There is something to be learned from different experiences.

4. His experience extends to other trails and the odd mountain.

5. He has actually lead others along the trail. This leadership experience puts him in a unique category.

6. He is an educator.

7. He is a founder of the ALDHA

8. In a world of clones, he walks to the beat of his own drum.


Does this make him the best person to learn from before a thru hike? Not necessarily. Einstein would probably have made a poor physics 101 instructor.

Still, I do think that these things do put Warren Doyle in a league of his own. AT hikers will be talking about Warren 100 years from now.

Why but heads over a simple fact?

[Almost There]

Wookie, excellent point and I feel a little bad when I see where you are coming from, and i agree it's a little sad that neither party could come to an acceptable compromise. I agree WC was a complete joy to talk to, and it was a positive conversation from an objective point of view. As I have said I will try to refrain from being negative as long as I can be sarcastic from time to time.:jump

Jeff, you are most welcome and if I can think of anything I will let you know!

[Tha Wookie]

Mr. Jardine did not found ALDHA-West. And it is not the fact of the matter that bothers me, it is the total disregard of those who did.

You really should catch up on the ALDHA-west newsletters, Nean. Ray was not the only founder, but did origninate the idea after meeting Warren backpacking (on Katahdin, if I recall correctly), according to an ALDHA newsletter I read at the conference this year in Tahoe.

I understand that the official group disbanded after Ray left, but then rejoined, trying to distance themselves from Ray's original involvement, by creating a "new" ALDHA west. That still doesn't change the fact that Ray founded ALDHA-west. Yes others were involved, and those who resurrected it deserve credit as well. Maybe you could regard those who did here now, for all of our benefit. I agree that they all deserve our respect.:D

[Jack Tarlin]

Geez, isn't Wookie classy.....he saunters in, hikes his leg and relieves himself, and then tells people to let the conversation go. See, that way, you either give him the last word or it looks like you're the one insisting on continuing the conversation. No, Wook, it doesn't work that way, because once again, you've made an absurd accusation: Hey,Wook, lemme clear something up for you, OK?

In recent months, you've either implied or stated clearly that I'm somehow jealous of another well-known hiker.

Wrong.

For one thing, Wook, I actually ENJOY hiking with a backpack, and don't spend a lot of time seeking out ways to avoid carrying one.

We have varied hiking styles. He does his thing, I do mine.

I assure you, his way of doing things doesn't interest me. And there are certain things aabout his personality don't appeal to me. I'm sure he feels the same way about me.

But jealous of him because of his car-assisted trail mileage, or the number of times he's completed a hike thanx to this unorthodox mode of travel?

Geez, I don't think so. Sleeping next to a van by the side of the road ain't my idea of a good time, OK?

And lastly, Wook, you seem to be missing something really important.

You seem to think there's some sort of caste system amongst backpackers, with some being more noteworthy or significant than others. In your own words, Wook, you think at least one hiker is in a league of his own.

You're so ardent in this belief that you've said it twice.

Fact is, Wook, I don't believe in a caste system for hikers, like you do. (And in any case, your contention about your hero is wrong, as there are any number of folks whose knowledge of the Trail is as extensive as his. Of course I pointed this out above, and of course you ignored it. You have a well-known proclivity for ignoring comments and material that point out your mistakes. Sometimes you call these corrections "trivia." Sometimes, you make fun of the format of a newspaper that's someone is quoting. Or sometimes, you retreat to the lamest debating tactic of all when confronted with a correction or admonishment.....you simply ignore it. Come to think of it, your hero does this all the time, too. Birds of a feather, eh?)

But to get back to hero worship, this is all I have to say to you: You think some hikers are in a league of their own.

I suggest that we're all in the same league, playing the same ballgame, with the difference that some of us have been lucky to play the game more often than others.

I don't think that some hikers, to paraphrase Orwell, are "more equal than others."

And incidentally, Wook, since you're throwing around sports lingo, you might be curious to know that longevity, or length of career, often means nothing: Roy Campanella and Jackie Robinson are in the Hall of Fame and were only in the Big Leagues for 10 years; Sandy Koufax played only 12 seasons; Joe DiMaggio played only 13.

In other words, how many miles someone has racked up, or how many thru-hikes, or how many years they've been around, doesn't mean much to a lot of people. And when folks insist on throwing their stats in people's faces, it's generally a turn-off.

Especially when these same folks like to insult or denigate others whose mileage or experience is deemed insignificant.

Mark this, and mark it well, Wook: We're all in the same League, and we're all playing the same game.

One last comment: A few weeks ago, you were quoting the Ten Commandments to me, arguing against capital punishment. Well, Wook, you fine 'ole Biblical scholar, the Two Tablets also, as I recall, also had something to say about worshipping false idols.

Time to hit the books again, kiddo.

But really, lay off the ass-smooching. It's unseemly.

Or to quote a hiker you know quite well, "Let it Go."

Bye, now.

[Almost There]

How we doing today, Jack?

[rickb]

Not sure of the "why" but it does seem a bit odd when a poster is compelled to point out that much of Warren Doyle's time on the AT was spent without a backpack-- in post after post after post. And in at least one "letter to the editor".

Especially since Warren Doyle's hiking record has been far less unidimensional than at least one of his greatest critics.

[MOWGLI]

I suggest that we're all in the same league, playing the same ballgame, with the difference that some of us have been lucky to play the game more often than others.




Jack:

I'm glad to see that you've finally come to your senses regarding White Blaze purism. Every hiker is now "in the same league". No more need to distinguish between those who hike the "entire" trail, and those who choose the blue or yellow blaze. We're all equals. How refreshing. :clap

PS: Speaking of DiMaggio, I hear the Yankees have a great new Centerfielder. I can't seem to remember his name, but I think he has the same initials as the Yankee Clipper. Help me out here....

[Jack Tarlin]

I'm doing fine, Almost There. I'm just tired of fools.

It's very simple: Some folks think certain other hikers are "special."

And some folks think it's OK for experiienced hikers, or old-timer hikers to denigrate, insult, and dis-regard others.

Well, sorry. I don't agree.

ALL hikes are special, EVERYONE has an opinion, and some folks have a vastly over-inflated view of some people's accomplisahments......including their own.

And Rick, you're right.....Mr. Doyle's preference for hiking as opposed to backpacking is noteworthy only because he himself is at such great pains to avoid discussing or acknowledging the subject.

Oh, I liked the "unidimensional." crack. About time my fans came up with an original insult......Rick, I commend you!

[Jack Tarlin]

Mowg---

I respect the right of anyone to hike as they wish. I prefer that they be honest about it afterwards, but that's another matter. Whether they go North or South, take side trails, skip the parts they did the year before.....I don't much care these days.

I also respect the thoughts and opinions of others who aren't "In a League of Their Own."

I wish others held this view, and refrained from insulting people whose only crime is that they're either new to backpacking, or have lioves that prevent them from getting out more. Being in league of one's own doesn't neccessarily prevent one from being rude.

Oh, and we'll do fine in centerfield, Mowgli! I don't think Damon's arm will hold up, and I'm not sure he'll be around for the long haul.

But time will tell.

[cup]

Nice view but I cant stay the van is 12 miles away!
You miss alot doing other peoples miles.

[TJ aka Teej]

...the problem isn't ALDHA at all. It's the sad fact that a few people would make it look so bad so publicly on a site that gets thousands of hits a day, from people who have never backpacked to the lurking greats. It is dragging an internal battle into the streets, with its pants down. It's plain ugly. And the only reason I care about it is because I care deeply about the hiking community.

The reasons it gets "ugly" is because after Doyle intentionally says or does something offensive, irritating or outrageous some hikers become offended, irritated or outraged. They respond to Doyle's provocations, and then Doyle's followers attack them for having been provoked. Doyle advocates theft and trespass, hikers respond negatively, and Doyle's followers attack them. Doyle brags about his behavior at the '01 Gathering, hikers respond negatively, and Doyle's followers attack them. Doyle uses Whiteblaze to try to disrupt the '04 Gathering with disinformation, hikers respond negatively, and Doyle's followers attack them. Provocation, response, attack - and Doyle uses the debris as an example in his AT class.
Perhaps those who care about the hiking community will stop responding to Doyle's provocations. Perhaps someday his followers will try to defend Doyle's offensive/irritating/outrageous words and deeds instead of merely attacking those who Doyle has offended/irritated/outraged. Perhaps. Someday.
Newbies: Don't let Doyle turn you off to ALDHA. This fall's 25th Anniversary Gathering will be the best ever, hope see you there!

[Tha Wookie]

Fact is, Wook, I don't believe in a caste system for hikers, like you do. (And in any case, your contention about your hero is wrong, as there are any number of folks whose knowledge of the Trail is as extensive as his. Of course I pointed this out above, and of course you ignored it. You have a well-known proclivity for ignoring comments and material that point out your mistakes. Sometimes you call these corrections "trivia." Sometimes, you make fun of the format of a newspaper that's someone is quoting. Or sometimes, you retreat to the lamest debating tactic of all when confronted with a correction or admonishment.....you simply ignore it. Come to think of it, your hero does this all the time, too. Birds of a feather, eh?)




Jack, what I said is this (for some reason I need a 3rd time for you to get it):

"The fact is, he's in a league of AT hiking experience that no one on this site is even close to reaching.

And that evidently bothers some people. REAL bad."

So tell me Jack, how is this "my mistake"?

My challenge to you is this: Tell me how many people on this site have more knowledge about hiking the AT than Warren, and who they are. Be specific Jack.

If someone has "more knowledge" than what he has gained on his 14 thru-hikes without as many AT miles with less hikes, then explain what qualifies them.

It's not about a "caste" system, Jack. Don't be a fool. It's about being qualified to teach his courses, which you consistently attempt to discredit. You do so I might add, very poorly, and only catapult his announcments into perpetuity with uncontrolled backlashes.

[Nean]

Miles = knowledge

[MOWGLI]

Nean is right. My cat is actually the most knowledgeable "person" about the trail. Miles (or being human) has nothing to do with it. He's watched all the videos and occasionaly sits on my lap while I post here on WB. By the way, his name is Chuka, he's an 11 year old tabby, and my wife calls him Wookie (since before she knew who Nate was). He likes catnip and chasing chipmunks.

And in another little known fact, Tha Wookie is actually the most knowledgeable person on this site about the Boston Red Sox. Here he is last year throwing out the first pitch at Fenway with Island Mama at his side. It was truly a wonderful moment.

Now, don't we all feel better?

[Almost There]

Being called an Internegator by Warren-Nice

Seeing Tha Wookie throw out the first pitch at Fenway-Priceless!!!

[Jack Tarlin]

Wook:

*I already made it clear, and named quite a few people whose experience and opinions on Trail matters is equal to the object of your affections. I'm not going to list them again. It's not my fault if you can't read. Oh, and I left out a few, too.

*When have I ever said Warren was unqualified to teach or lecture on the Trail? Please give examples. What I've said, Wook, is that while one can't dis-regard his longevity or experience, that doesn't necessarily translate to being the world's best teacher. For example, and I don't intend to re-hash it, he has a long record here and elsewhere of advocating behavior while hiking that I think is improper. Which is another way of saying I've frequently disagreed with some of the things he "teaches" people. And I expect I will again.

*And finally, Wook, check out the beginning of this lamentable thread. My first comments were NOT about his abilities, experience or qualifications to teach a course on the Trail. I was instead expressing my feelings about the fact that at the time this thread started, he was ONLY coming here to push the Institute. Despite what you just said above, my primary concern was not his qualifications, it was, instead, his repeated use of this site to sell what other experienced and knowledgable folks were willing to part with for free. I thought this was more than a bit distasteful, and I still do. There's nothing wrong with selling stuff on Whiteblaze, people do it all the time......gear, maps,clothing, jewelry, stoves, shuttles, and so on. My original objection was when someone was coming here ONLY to sell stuff. I thought this shabby and a bit disrespectful of the site.

*And if you don't care for some of the points people have made,Wook, that's up to you. Personally, I think that it's unusual that the person you admire the most is the only really well-known hiker who regularly uses the Interent to SELL his A.T. expertise. Everyone else seems to have no trouble---and in fact quite seems to enjoy---sharing their knowledge gratis. If your hero is the ONLY hiker of note who wishes to sell his knowhow here, instead of giving it away like everyone else....well, this is going to be noticed, and people will comment.

*And finally, once again, I disagree with your putting hikers in different "leagues." I stated this quite clearly above and see no need to repeat it word by word: It didn't get thru last time around, and I doubt your reading ability has improved overmuch in an hour. But I don't think we should be putting hikers in leagues, as this does indeed create a caste system.

Some folks, Wook, seem to think that some hiker's opinions and thoughts are inconsequential and unimportant. Some folks think that they're somehow special, and that other hikers' experiences and knowledge isn't worth hearing about.

These are the opinions of the man you esteem so highly, Wook.

You're entitled to your opinions, Wook.

He's entitled to his.

And you're both entitled to each other. Call it "A League of Their Own."

See ya.

[Lone Wolf]

Give It A ***ing Rest Already!! Little Kids Are Dying Daily At Cancer Centers! Y'alls Bickering Is Beyond Childish! This Is Just A ***ing Walking Path! ***!

[Jack Tarlin]

Good point, Wolf. And pithy, too.

[Lone Wolf]

Thank you. I had to vent.

[Nean]

You really should catch up on the ALDHA-west newsletters, Nean. Ray was not the only founder


I agree that they all deserve our respect.:D

We are making progress!:D
Did we not discuss this awhile back via PM? The short version...
ALDHA-West History 101
"You really should catch up" to someone who was there. Last I checked, I wrote the ALDHA-West "history" that appeared in the Gazette and is on our webpage. The part about following in Rays footprints was edited in -behind my back- by our then editor. He wasn't there either Wook; but happened to be the editor of Rays 1st 2 editions of his Handbook!;) Ever read those Wook? Classics they are. So guess what got edited out? :banana {drumrollllll............} "ALDHA". Ray created a pedestal for himself that crashed and burned brother; Ray himself declared Western States Chapter "defunct" on the eve of the gathering. Rays "chapter" was more like WFs site. Ray was "President" and that was it! You were not allowed to disagree with him(.) Most of us "there":D got together and decided to start an organization "following in the footsteps Appalachain LDHA", i.e. myself and 4 others sat down and wrote some bylaws, a board was ELECTED! Ray was there and was asked nicely if he wanted to help us get started in any way, shape or form. To bad, isn't it Wook, that his response was not so nice. Lets just say he wanted no part of it. Now here is the so sad part. Over the next several years I spoke with people who had been discouraged from joining our organiztion by Ray. I even thought about sending him a T-shirt that said " I See Equestrians":p If you value honesty, Ray has never been a member of Aldha-West, never been to our Gatherings, never particapated in any way, and went out of his way to discourage our success. Still sound like a "founder" :confused: Better check my DW:)

......... don't believe everything that you read.;)

[Tha Wookie]

......... don't believe everything that you read.;)

If this is so obvious, then why was this in the newsletter sitting in plain view at this year's ALDHA-west gathering?

Are you saying you were the editor when you said: "you wrote the ALDHA-West "history" that appeared in the Gazette and is on our webpage."

If you were, then why does it refute what you say now? Because someone "snuck" in some make-believe story? Is that what you're saying. I'm not trying to argue, this just isn't making sense.

Nor does it jive with what Ray has told me directly. He might be eccentric, but if you don't mind I trust him over a pot-shot internet lurker. He corraborated what you refute.

So I let it go.

next topic.

[Tha Wookie]

Give It A ***ing Rest Already!! Little Kids Are Dying Daily At Cancer Centers! Y'alls Bickering Is Beyond Childish! This Is Just A ***ing Walking Path! ***!

You're telling me.;)

[Internegator]

I do. It's thousands of miles more than you have done. Probably tens of thousands.

In fact, he probably has more miles than you with his pack on anyway.

He probably has more miles than you while brushing his teeth.

He probably has more miles than you barefoot.

He probably has more miles than you backwards.

The fact is, he's in a league of AT hiking experience that no one on this site is even close to reaching.

And that evidently bothers some people. REAL bad.

Yet all it does is give Warren's school more publicity. Take some notes, and notice how many miles he's gotten out of this thread.:D

http://www.sound-effect.com/sounds/human/slurping.wav

[domnokmis]

Geez, isn't Wookie classy.....he saunters in, hikes his leg and relieves himself, and then tells people to let the conversation go. See, that way, you either give him the last word or it looks like you're the one insisting on continuing the conversation. No, Wook, it doesn't work that way, because once again, you've made an absurd accusation: Hey,Wook, lemme clear something up for you, OK?

In recent months, you've either implied or stated clearly that I'm somehow jealous of another well-known hiker.

Wrong.

For one thing, Wook, I actually ENJOY hiking with a backpack, and don't spend a lot of time seeking out ways to avoid carrying one.

We have varied hiking styles. He does his thing, I do mine.

I assure you, his way of doing things doesn't interest me. And there are certain things aabout his personality don't appeal to me. I'm sure he feels the same way about me.

But jealous of him because of his car-assisted trail mileage, or the number of times he's completed a hike thanx to this unorthodox mode of travel?

Geez, I don't think so. Sleeping next to a van by the side of the road ain't my idea of a good time, OK?

And lastly, Wook, you seem to be missing something really important.

You seem to think there's some sort of caste system amongst backpackers, with some being more noteworthy or significant than others. In your own words, Wook, you think at least one hiker is in a league of his own.

You're so ardent in this belief that you've said it twice.

Fact is, Wook, I don't believe in a caste system for hikers, like you do. (And in any case, your contention about your hero is wrong, as there are any number of folks whose knowledge of the Trail is as extensive as his. Of course I pointed this out above, and of course you ignored it. You have a well-known proclivity for ignoring comments and material that point out your mistakes. Sometimes you call these corrections "trivia." Sometimes, you make fun of the format of a newspaper that's someone is quoting. Or sometimes, you retreat to the lamest debating tactic of all when confronted with a correction or admonishment.....you simply ignore it. Come to think of it, your hero does this all the time, too. Birds of a feather, eh?)

But to get back to hero worship, this is all I have to say to you: You think some hikers are in a league of their own.

I suggest that we're all in the same league, playing the same ballgame, with the difference that some of us have been lucky to play the game more often than others.

I don't think that some hikers, to paraphrase Orwell, are "more equal than others."

And incidentally, Wook, since you're throwing around sports lingo, you might be curious to know that longevity, or length of career, often means nothing: Roy Campanella and Jackie Robinson are in the Hall of Fame and were only in the Big Leagues for 10 years; Sandy Koufax played only 12 seasons; Joe DiMaggio played only 13.

In other words, how many miles someone has racked up, or how many thru-hikes, or how many years they've been around, doesn't mean much to a lot of people. And when folks insist on throwing their stats in people's faces, it's generally a turn-off.

Especially when these same folks like to insult or denigate others whose mileage or experience is deemed insignificant.

Mark this, and mark it well, Wook: We're all in the same League, and we're all playing the same game.

One last comment: A few weeks ago, you were quoting the Ten Commandments to me, arguing against capital punishment. Well, Wook, you fine 'ole Biblical scholar, the Two Tablets also, as I recall, also had something to say about worshipping false idols.

Time to hit the books again, kiddo.

But really, lay off the ass-smooching. It's unseemly.

Or to quote a hiker you know quite well, "Let it Go."

Bye, now.Am I the only one who sees this as bullying? Isn't Tha Wookie entitled to have an opinion without being called names and insulted? Why isn't it okay for Tha Wookie to admire whomever he wants to admire without being ridiculed as butt-smooching and worshiping idols?

It would be one thing for Jack Tarlin to say "I disagree with you and here is my position." but what I am seeing is that it is wrong for Tha Wookie and others here to have certain opinions or to say that certain people are admirable.

Those two troublemakers on the other thread were talking about censorship here, and everyone said there is none, but bullying is a form of censorship. Most people would think twice before saying anything they knew Jack Tarlin (and others) would insult them for saying.

Back to lurking.

[Nokia]

I think it would be fun to add a new forum where we ask questions and Jack, Tha' Wookie, and others get into verbal pissing matches. This would be very entertaining and rewarding. Think of all the knowledge and insightful wisdom we would get in between insults and finger pointing.:banana And on top of it maybe we could get Lion King and Jack to talk some more about Lion King's movie. Oh what fun!

[Nokia]

By the way, I do think that you all really do offer great insight and knowledge of the trail. I just think it's funny to watch you all argue.
:bse

[Jack Tarlin]

Dom, you're new here.....

If you'd been around longer, you'd know that Wookie manages to say something snide or rude about me every time he posts, but I'm fairly thick-skinned and have come to expect it. What bothers me more is when he ignores direct questions or says things that simply aren't true.

When he does this, I'm going to point it out, as I did above. Sorry if you think this is "bullying" or are you suggesting that it's OK for him to say outrageous things without getting a response? That's not the way it works.

And lastly, don't feel you have to lurk. Personally, I wish the lurkers would speak up more often, and feel that they have something to contribute here. Unlike some others I could name, I'm of the opinion that everyone is welcome here, everyone's voice should be heard, everyone has something to offer, and that it's presumptuous and rude for some hikers to tell others, especially newcomers, that their opinions are out of place and aren't welcome.

There are some folks who feel otherwise, and you know what?

THAT'S what I'd call bullying!

[Ender]

Give It A ***ing Rest Already!! Little Kids Are Dying Daily At Cancer Centers! Y'alls Bickering Is Beyond Childish! This Is Just A ***ing Walking Path! ***!

Truer words were never spoken.

[gpsblake]

Jack,

I'll make this blunt.

It's obvious you hate Warren Doyle. That's all it comes down to. I don't know why you hate him so much but it's so obvious that you do. And don't try to deny it. And from what I read, many others have been a victim of your hatred also.

I haven't been around here for long but I call em as I see em.

I tell you what, I respect him much more after reading this thread and totally disrespect you. He hasn't dropped down to your level.

If this isn't the case, tell us in reasonable undrunken English what is your beef against Doyle. Mind you, I will use your own standard to counter your argument.

[Skidsteer]

Jack,

I'll make this blunt.

It's obvious you hate Warren Doyle. That's all it comes down to. I don't know why you hate him so much but it's so obvious that you do. And don't try to deny it. And from what I read, many others have been a victim of your hatred also.

I haven't been around here for long but I call em as I see em.

I tell you what, I respect him much more after reading this thread and totally disrespect you. He hasn't dropped down to your level.

If this isn't the case, tell us in reasonable undrunken English what is your beef against Doyle. Mind you, I will use your own standard to counter your argument.

Myself, I prefer to be drunken rather than undrunken.:D

[Jack Tarlin]

With all due respect, Mr. Blake, and I'll accord you more respect in this post than you provided in yours, you've been around here less than two weeks.

My differences of opinion with the gentleman in question have been covered here at length, and the arguments go back quite aways.

If you're truly interested in my complaints about him (Which are shared by others, by the way), you're welcome to go into Whiteblaze and find some of the discussions for yourself. But I'm not going to give chapter and verse, it's all been said before.

Oh, speaking of nastiness and intemperate speech, read the last paragraph
of your post again. Is this politeness? Or just an attempt at wit? Is a post like this going to make me admire, or respect YOU? Think about it.

You know, Mr. Blake, I've been arguing for some time that despite what Mr. Doyle stated above, that I think newcomers to backpacking, and newcomers to Whiteblaze, deserve to have their thoughts respected and listened to the same as anyone else.

But in reading you post, I'm starting to re-consider this.

Have a pleasant evening.

[gpsblake]

Myself, I prefer to be drunken rather than undrunken.:D

Ditto. But I never drive or post on message boards when drunk. :D

[gpsblake]

With all due respect, Mr. Blake, and I'll accord you more respect in this post than you provided in yours, you've been around here less than two weeks.

You just said that doesn't matter here. Remember you saying that all hikers and posters are EQUAL and none are better than others?



If you're truly interested in my complaints about him (Which are shared by others, by the way),

I find the opposite, that most support Doyle around here.
List your gripes with Warren Doyle instead of doing a banana dance. :banana

It shouldn't be that hard. I think a lot of others would like to hear it in a brief paragraph or two. It should take you all of 4 minutes of your time to do that.

[Jack Tarlin]

I think I made it clear that the information you allegedly seek has been posted elsewhere. YOU might want it all laid out again, but I assure you not too many other folks do.

You want to see this stuff that badly, go find it yourself.

Mr. Blake, I just checked your brief history here at Whiteblaze. You accuse me of having a "beef" or a bias against someone, yet your first post here was an attack on me; in your second post, you put words in my mouth thanking me for agreeing with something you'd said, when in fact I hadn't; you've gone out of your way to mentione me in subsequent posts, and in truth, don't seem to have much to offer here other than flames at me, and air kisses directed at Warren Doyle's fundament. In truth, I can't see much point or value in continuing our dialogue: If the purpose of your correspondence and comments was for me to respect you enough to engage in a civil dialogue, well, in all honesty, you've failed.

Have a nice day!

[Nean]

If this is so obvious, then why was this in the newsletter sitting in plain view at this year's ALDHA-west gathering?

Are you saying you were the editor when you said: "you wrote the ALDHA-West "history" that appeared in the Gazette and is on our webpage."

If you were, then why does it refute what you say now? Because someone "snuck" in some make-believe story? Is that what you're saying. I'm not trying to argue, this just isn't making sense.

Nor does it jive with what Ray has told me directly. He might be eccentric, but if you don't mind I trust him over a pot-shot internet lurker. He corraborated what you refute.

So I let it go.

next topic.

You are so funny Wookie. I'm amused, so here we go!
You ask me questins, insult me,......and then say let it go! Do you even see how funny that is?
Gosh Wook, to bad you ain't the one to decide:D That is what is so wonderful about WB, fairness. I don't mind discussing this matter with you, again. I can see that your mind is not yet open and if I must endure an insult, so be it. Maybe you haven't noticed friend, but I do anything but lurk. Honestly, Wook, aren't you the one taking the "pot-shot"? Isn't Ray the one who "lurks"?
I'm sorry if you became confused. That is why it does not make sense.:) I'll type slower.:D I wrote the history that appears(ed?) on the website and in an old Gazette; much closer to the events to when they happened AND by someone who was there.:-? I was not the editor. His name was Karl (and he wasn't there either), Wook, and he subsituded RJ for ALDHA and "forgot to mention it". I remember the new newsletter artical you mention; the new President(who wasn't there either) reflects on what he may of read in the past/present but makes a point of saying it isn't the organization that Ray started.

Instead of an emotional reaction, try answering my question. I checked my DW and the answer, the truth, is No. If you dispute the facts I have presented about Rays involvement w/ our "West" , past or present, please get back with me w/ some examples!:)

[Jack Tarlin]

Nean, that's EXACTLY what I said a few posts ago.... (see #324, above)

Wook's modus operandi is to wade into a conversation, hike his leg, piss and moan, closing his comments with a peace-and-love entreaty that we "Let it Go" and move on.......after he's dropped his bomb-load and scuttled away.

I see that I'm not the only one that gets this treatment, but it's good to see you standing up to it.

Oh, and I find it interesting that regarding my own treatment of Wookie, I'm taken to task for insulting and bullying him.

And now we see Wook calling Nean, one of the most respected long-distance hikers alive, a "pot shot internet lurker."

Wook, you want respect, speak with respect. Your childish, boorish, and totally false characterization and description of Nean debases and demeans anything else you might have to say. Grow up.

[Sly]

Just checking in and haven't had time to read all the posts. What's happening? ;)

[DaSchwartz]

Larry Tarlin aka Jack is drunk again. Too much Jim Beam again????

Seroquel will also help with your behavior when you sober up again.

[gpsblake]

Someone just sent me a private message why Jack hates Warren. There is no logical reason. It all revolves around jealousy and hatred.

Anyhow, enough of this. I'll see if I can put Jack into the iggy bin.

[Nean]

Sly Sly ......but I'll forget that :), and answer your question.
Wookie got confused
Wookie got mad
Wookie got scolded
...but I have faith in the young man, I would never be able to truefully say, he lurks.

Think I'll have another drink ;) Thanks Jim Tarlin, ..hic..

[Sly]

Think I'll have another drink. ;) Thanks Jim Tarlin, ..hic..

LOL... That's funny. Let's hope DaSchwartz doesn't get all over your **** for being an alky!

Cheers!

[orangebug]

You know, this thread has become malignant again. The vitriole against both Warren and Jack is an insult to them and to WB. Those making personal attacks, especially DaSchwartz & gpsblake, need to be abandoned on an ice floe in the Bering Sea. (I don't go for censorship, just termination).

[Lone Wolf]

Jack brings it on himself.

[shades of blue]

God knows Jack and I don't see eye to eye on a political idea....and he certainly doesn't seem to like Mr. Doyle and has attacked his ideas and beliefs...which I guess means he has attacked him. However.....Jack's resupply advice and other helps on this board helped me with my long distance hike. Mr. Doyle was interesting, and philosophically fun to listen to, even if I don't agree with all he says..but jack has been practical and helpful on many different levels. Does he have a problem with "demon akeeyol" who knows.....that is his business...that is personal. I have never wittnessed or heard about how he has had a bad affect on the AT or surrounding community. Jack attacks deal with how Mr. Doyle's activities and teachings affect the trail. To me, that seems different. In the end...it's all been said over and over again. Those that think evil of either one will continue thinking evil on both of them.

[Lion King]

I think it would be fun to add a new forum where we ask questions and Jack, Tha' Wookie, and others get into verbal pissing matches. This would be very entertaining and rewarding. Think of all the knowledge and insightful wisdom we would get in between insults and finger pointing.:banana And on top of it maybe we could get Lion King and Jack to talk some more about Lion King's movie. Oh what fun!

Well...since you brought it up, its also now available at Campmor!

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?memberId=12500226&productId=39198272

Buy one today! It will help me raise the money to hike the PCT this year!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :banana :D :D :D

[Tha Wookie]

Instead of an emotional reaction, try answering my question. I checked my DW and the answer, the truth, is No. If you dispute the facts I have presented about Rays involvement w/ our "West" , past or present, please get back with me w/ some examples!:)

According to you above, you wrote this, from http://www.aldhawest.org/about/history.asp:



Sixteen years ago, Warren Doyle founded the "Appalachian Long Distance Hikers Association" (ALDHA). ALDHA was the inspiration behind "ALDHA-Western States Chapter," started by Ray Jardine in '93. With other interests and time pressures, Ray announced his need to retire from running his organization at the '95 Gathering.
What happened then can best be described as a grass roots movement, to continue what Ray had begun, and form our organization. Bylaws were written and a board of directors elected. Overnight, the "American Long Distance Hiking Association - West" was formed. A hat was passed so we could publish our first Gazette, and our main goal was to survive the year. Not only did we survive, we grew. With some help from ALDHA, we acquired official non-profit status. We got to the '96 Gathering hoping to tie up some loose ends that come with forming an organization in a few hours. Progress was made and we gained valuable insight.
There is still lots to do. This year, record keeping and voting procedures will be much improved. Our bylaws need to be refined and amended. The board will decide on guidelines (or 'policy') to implement our bylaws.

Here's a source from Backpacker Magazine with Ray's comments: http://www.ray-way.com/bb/r-w-backpacker/199802-backpacker.shtml

If you are still telling me Ray Jardine did not start it, then fine. Good for you.

If you are telling me 'yes' because the name was shortened by two words when it was re-organized, then to me it sounds like denial. No matter how you slice the bread, it's still bread. My point was that it would not exist without Ray, and it's unfortunate that the pioneers of ALDHA are so maligned by the small percentage of folks who have benefited from their endeavors.

Yes, I called you a 'pot-shot lurker', because I see you post regular insults to my friends, who incidentally are incredibly successful hikers, and face with that success needless and devisive criticism. Thet are real people, sensitive ones at that, and I do not admire the slander nor do I want to support it.

I wanted to drop the subject in the last post, because as you have repeadedly slandered Ray publicy on the board and privately to me by PMs and emails, I've heard enough about what you think about Ray, and I don't want to follow the gossip once again with you, smearing him more and more along the way, so I'm nipping it in the bud. I have no interest in pursuing it further.

peace,

THa Wookie

[Tha Wookie]

Am I the only one who sees this as bullying? Isn't Tha Wookie entitled to have an opinion without being called names and insulted? Why isn't it okay for Tha Wookie to admire whomever he wants to admire without being ridiculed as butt-smooching and worshiping idols?

It would be one thing for Jack Tarlin to say "I disagree with you and here is my position." but what I am seeing is that it is wrong for Tha Wookie and others here to have certain opinions or to say that certain people are admirable.

Those two troublemakers on the other thread were talking about censorship here, and everyone said there is none, but bullying is a form of censorship. Most people would think twice before saying anything they knew Jack Tarlin (and others) would insult them for saying.

Back to lurking.

Thanks for coming out of the shadows with your observations.

I am not afraid of the bullying, although it does occupy too much of my valuable time. Notice, that I was responding to "Internegator" and not Jack, Nean, or anyone else. Although, I guess I should have realized that any positive comment about Warren is somehow a direct insult to some people.

I answered the simple question "you can what Warrren Doyle does hiking?" with a review of the magnitide of his hiking experience. Anyone else who has hiked 35,000 miles on the AT raise your hands.

[TJ aka Teej]

Although, I guess I should have realized that any positive comment about Warren is somehow a direct insult to some people.

Wookie - be honest. Isn't it also true that: any negative comment about Warren is somehow a direct insult to some people?

[warren doyle]

Fact: I have only walked approximately 30,000 miles on the Appalachian Trail, not 35,000. I don't know where that figure came from. Definitely not from me. However, I do hope to attain the 35,000-mile mark sometime during the summer of 2012. I am looking forward to the next 5,000-miles.

Simple fact (and question): I love walking on the Appalachian Trail. Don't you?

Happy trails to all!

[smokymtnsteve]

You know, this thread has become malignant again. The vitriole against both Warren and Jack is an insult to them and to WB. Those making personal attacks, especially DaSchwartz & gpsblake, need to be abandoned on an ice floe in the Bering Sea. (I don't go for censorship, just termination).

don't U go a sendin up this away...we already have more then our share of wackos up hern:jump

[smokymtnsteve]

God knows Jack and I don't see eye to eye on a political idea....and he certainly doesn't seem to like Mr. Doyle and has attacked his ideas and beliefs...which I guess means he has attacked him. However.....Jack's resupply advice and other helps on this board helped me with my long distance hike. Mr. Doyle was interesting, and philosophically fun to listen to, even if I don't agree with all he says..but jack has been practical and helpful on many different levels. Does he have a problem with "demon akeeyol" who knows.....that is his business...that is personal. I have never wittnessed or heard about how he has had a bad affect on the AT or surrounding community. Jack attacks deal with how Mr. Doyle's activities and teachings affect the trail. To me, that seems different. In the end...it's all been said over and over again. Those that think evil of either one will continue thinking evil on both of them.

dats b cause Bj is a WD dissident,

and btw U mispelt demon ALKYHOL ;)

[smokymtnsteve]

Jack brings it on himself.

and LUVS ever minute of it...:clap

[rcli4]

Warren post that he has hiked 30,000 miles. Wookie has him in a league of his own. I agree he is in a league of his own. I have probably planted more trees than anyone on this site. I don't know how many but in the hundreds of thousands. If I only share my knowledge of tree planting with those that will pay me I would be a tree knowledge whore. A league of my own.

When I am planning for my 2006 thru I refer often to the info freely shared by the lesser traveled Jack Tarlin on a regular basis. When trying to decided wether or not to keep an online journal I happened to listen to the less traveled Mr. Tarlin on the webcast and decided I didn't want my hike to be about keeping a journal. He didn't voice an opinion one way or the other, he just told the facts.

Warren my very well answer questions if asked but someone that has never hiked the AT probably dosen't know the questions to ask. Maybe I missed his contribution to the articles section of this site.

Jack, Thank You for all the help you have given me without ever knowing me or answering a question from me. If I see you on the trail this year I will buy you a drink and thank you in person.

Warren Please don't run over me in your van on your way to 35,000 miles. I'll be the one carring my backpack and riding in the canoe :>))

Clyde

[Almost There]

Ha Ha! And the wheel goes round!!!

[Skidsteer]

Warren Please don't run over me in your van on your way to 35,000 miles. I'll be the one carring my backpack and riding in the canoe :>)
Clyde

Classic. I laughed in spite of myself!:)

[shades of blue]

dats b cause Bj is a WD dissident,

and btw U mispelt demon ALKYHOL ;)

I've always had a problem with ALKYHOL....at least spelling it that is....
:rolleyes:

[rickb]

If I only share my knowledge of tree planting with those that will pay me I would be a tree knowledge whore.

And if you founded an organization which helped hundreds or thousands of people plant trees. What would that make you?

Or if you devoted hundreds or thousands of hours presenting free seminars on how to plant trees. What would that make you?

Or if you devoted much of your professional career to teaching others to plant trees and savor the experience. What would that make you?

My guess is it would make you think far differently about your last post. At a minimum.

[Skidsteer]

And if you founded an organization which helped hundreds or thousands of people plant trees. What would that make you?

Or if you devoted hundreds or thousands of hours presenting free seminars on how to plant trees. What would that make you?

Or if you devoted much of your professional career to teaching others to plant trees and savor the experience. What would that make you?

My guess is it would make you think far differently about your last post. At a minimum.

I bet he still takes the canoe.;)

[TJ aka Teej]

Maybe I missed his contribution to the articles section of this site.

He has been asked to contribute to the articles before. So far he hasn't.

[Sly]

Clyde, the trail giving advice is mutual.

In another year you'll be giving Jack advice, about going southbound. It's apparent he knows very little about it. ;)

[Tha Wookie]

Do I hear a 30 thousand?!

:jump

[Nean]

According to you above, you wrote this, from http://www.aldhawest.org/about/history.asp:



Sixteen years ago, Warren Doyle founded the "Appalachian Long Distance Hikers Association" (ALDHA). ALDHA was the inspiration behind "ALDHA-Western States Chapter," started by Ray Jardine in '93. With other interests and time pressures, Ray announced his need to retire from running his organization at the '95 Gathering.
What happened then can best be described as a grass roots movement, to continue what Ray had begun, and form our organization. Bylaws were written and a board of directors elected. Overnight, the "American Long Distance Hiking Association - West" was formed. A hat was passed so we could publish our first Gazette, and our main goal was to survive the year. Not only did we survive, we grew. With some help from ALDHA, we acquired official non-profit status. We got to the '96 Gathering hoping to tie up some loose ends that come with forming an organization in a few hours. Progress was made and we gained valuable insight.
There is still lots to do. This year, record keeping and voting procedures will be much improved. Our bylaws need to be refined and amended. The board will decide on guidelines (or 'policy') to implement our bylaws.






Here's a source from Backpacker Magazine with Ray's comments: http://www.ray-way.com/bb/r-w-backpacker/199802-backpacker.shtml

If you are still telling me Ray Jardine did not start it, then fine. Good for you.

If you are telling me 'yes' because the name was shortened by two words when it was re-organized, then to me it sounds like denial. No matter how you slice the bread, it's still bread. My point was that it would not exist without Ray, and it's unfortunate that the pioneers of ALDHA are so maligned by the small percentage of folks who have benefited from their endeavors.

Yes, I called you a 'pot-shot lurker', because I see you post regular insults to my friends, who incidentally are incredibly successful hikers, and face with that success needless and devisive criticism. Thet are real people, sensitive ones at that, and I do not admire the slander nor do I want to support it.

I wanted to drop the subject in the last post, because as you have repeadedly slandered Ray publicy on the board and privately to me by PMs and emails, I've heard enough about what you think about Ray, and I don't want to follow the gossip once again with you, smearing him more and more along the way, so I'm nipping it in the bud. I have no interest in pursuing it further.

peace,

THa Wookie

Way to take the high road Wook. And you didn't even follow up with a LW quoted out of context. More progress, my faith is justified:)
So thats your proof eh. Some guy from (wait, I have to laugh) (sorry that took so long) Backpacker Mag. says RJ started ALDHA (but what's one, or two or even three words, right Wook) Sounds like an expert to me, I'll bet he was there.
Your website example. Have you forgotten already my friend? You don't really believe everything you read? Of course not. That line you highlighted has been added and if you don't believe me look in the Gazette and see for yourself. You can not expose me as a liar because I am not lying. As for who put that line in there, who knows? Were they there, who knows? Is that their opinion, you bet, but it don't make it fact. Ray did inspire us Wook, to never have an organization like his. I know, I was there.:-? But even positive inspiration does not = found. You have not answered my question Wookie; Webster says found = to begin (ray ended) to build (ray refused) or organize, establish. Ray wanted nothing to do with us, did not help in any way, shape or form. He has NEVER been a member of ALDHA- West, NEVER been to a Gathering, Never done a thing except.... what you accuse me of ( Oh I love the irony) and in your book that means he founded ALDHA-West. Good for you Wook.;)

Now for your accusations of slander. Sounds serious, got an example? Let me give you an example so you know what I mean. Your accusation of slander:D Another example of slander Wookie? Your pot-shot lurker remark. Seems you have 2 sets of rules. I tell it like it is Wook; And that evidently bothers YOU, REAL Bad.
Again, thanks for nipping this bud, not pursueing it any further and all. I'm sure RJ is glad you cleared this up.
Peace back at ya brother

[Tha Wookie]

Now for your accusations of slander.

Nothing I have ever said is slander to you. Get out your dictionary again, Nean. Look it up. Go ahead, flip the pages. Become familiar with the term. You know what I'm talking about.

;)

[Tabasco]

As a casual reader of these ever present flame wars, I find it very disheartening not to be able to tell who supports whom. Would it be possible to create a special avatar so we can identify which flame war participant is a Doyle-ite and which is a Tarlinista? I believe that this would help clear up a lot of confusion to those of us who casually peruse the flame war threads.

Thank you for your time and please continue the bashing.....

[Almost There]

See if people would buy my Internegator shirts then it would clear up the problem. However, and no offense BJ but I don't want to be called a Tarlinista, I am my own person thank you! Although I agree with Jack on principle, I do not agree with everything he says. I have formed my own opinion of Warren and that is how I choose to approach him. However at the urgings of friends such as Lone Wolf, Orange Bug, and Wookie, I have decided to stop huffing the paint and come to my senses, as I was spending way too much time going after someone who I think sits at home reading with glee while wringing his hands that he has caused this much consternation and anger in those who dislike or disagree with him. So now I sit back and enjoy the wars, but I have decided to declare that I am a cautious observer...who will occasionally give a "clever"(IMHO) aside.

[Tim Rich]

As a casual reader of these ever present flame wars, I find it very disheartening not to be able to tell who supports whom. Would it be possible to create a special avatar so we can identify which flame war participant is a Doyle-ite and which is a Tarlinista? I believe that this would help clear up a lot of confusion to those of us who casually peruse the flame war threads.

Thank you for your time and please continue the bashing.....

An excellent suggestion! The switchhitters who just like to stir the pot add to the confusion, but also the enjoyment. Also, if it was just the Doyleskies and Tarlinistas it would be easy, but when you've got a number of factions with overlapping allegiances you have, well, Italy.

Doylesky foils fall in a number of categories:

The Law and Order group - Must pay for services and not jump off bridges.
The Health Inspector group - Must not dumpster dive for food.
The Traditional Backpacking group - Breathing carbon monoxide in camp each evening helps the circle of trust clear their minds.
The Moral Majority group - Sex on the trail, literally on the trail, is disgusting.
The Profiteering group - Selling what is freely available is prostitution.
The Your Mothers group - "I don't care what schedule you're on, clean up after yourself!"

Those seeking to oust the Tarlinistas have many positions:

The Temperance group - If you're drinking, you're not thinking.
The Literature Lovers group - Warren's poetry readings are inspiring.
The Swingers group - Sex on the trail! Cool!
The Your Mothers group (2) - But Mom, Warren jumps off bridges and fords the Kennebec. Why can't I?
The Capitalist Group - Any service and price a consumer is willing to pay is acceptable (if this includes prostitution, this group morphs libertarian).
The Deadhead Group - We travel in a van? Cool!
The You're Not Worthy Group - He's hiked a gazillion miles and you haven't.

This just scratches the surface, but it may be a representative sample.

Take Care,

Tim

[Frosty]

However, and no offense BJ but I don't want to be called a Tarlinista

So now I sit back and enjoy the wars, but I have decided to declare that I am a cautious observer....Well, no offense to either Warren or Jack, but I think Tarlinista has more zip than Doyle-ite.

But now it seems we need an avatar and name for those who support the stance of Switzerland and remain neutral. How about a packet of just-add-hot-water Swiss Chocolate for an avatar?

A name? Why, Swiss Miss, of course!

[Nean]

More progress, excellent. I notice you no longer qoute from DW my friend. Good thing. Accusations are one thing, but I'll let your denial go. Folks can use their own eyes.

BTW Warren, Best wishes with ATI and may you enjoy another 30,ooom of hiking!

[Alligator]

I'm an equal opportunity harasser. Ask anyone:) .

[Mags]

A Also, if it was just the Doyleskies and Tarlinistas it would be easy, but when you've got a number of factions with overlapping allegiances you have, well, Italy.



But in Italy, poliitcal enemies will give you a sumptuous meal with lots of wine, it will last five hours (at least)...then you will be too tired, full and slighlty drunk to argue. So why not pass the grappa and have a correto? (Coffee with a dollup of liquor). ;)

I want to go back to Italy for another vist! :)

Back to our flame wars...

www.flamewarriors.com

[Tha Wookie]

As a casual reader of these ever present flame wars, I find it very disheartening not to be able to tell who supports whom. Would it be possible to create a special avatar so we can identify which flame war participant is a Doyle-ite and which is a Tarlinista? I believe that this would help clear up a lot of confusion to those of us who casually peruse the flame war threads.

Thank you for your time and please continue the bashing.....

No thanks... I'm just a wookiee.

A single point of light in the universe.

[Jack Tarlin]

Kool!!

Wookie is one of President Bush's famous "Thousand Points of Light!"

I KNEW it! :)

[awol]

I stated a couple days ago i'd buy an "INTERNEGATOR" T-shirt. Can I get a Tarlinista shirt to... Say two for $20? :rolleyes:

[MOWGLI]

I stated a couple days ago i'd buy an "INTERNEGATOR" T-shirt. Can I get a Tarlinista shirt to... Say two for $20? :rolleyes:

They sell em at the Dollar Store - half price. ;)

[MOWGLI]

Speaking of T-Shirts, I've got an idea for a t-shirt to raise money for a building fund for the Doyle in Duncannon.

The front has an image (in pen & ink) of the building with the name of the establishment, and the back says, "Warren Doesn't Drink Here". Betcha its a goldmine.

[warren doyle]

144 posts in three days

#252 - I do not believe my "abilities to prepare hikers surpasses all who are on here."
#253 - Advertisement? No Sharing information? Yes
#262 - I'm not "Great" either.
Weary #256; #268 - Thanks
rickboudrie #263 - Insightful. The answer is a little bit of the first and a lot of the second.
#270 - Insightful (again)
#321 - Your head is definitely on straight!
#326 - A voice of reason (yet again).
#377 - Thanks again. I hope to meet you someday.
gpsblake #289 - Thoughtful post.
FYI - The four-day ATI program is for thru-hikers planning their own hikes. There is a $300 tuition. The ATI is held about two times a year. Any operating surplus derived represents about 1% of my annual income (i.e. full-time college faculty member).
The AT Circle Expedition is held every five years. This is a grassroots, folk, non-commercial, amateur endeavor. I obtain no income from organizing/leading them and never want to. I know that is hard to believe in this era of the 'outdoor adventure industry', but I'm a throwback and that's the truth.

Nokia#292 - See above. I do not 'make a wage' at all organizing/leading the AT Circle Expeditions.
#294 - an appropriate name based on your posts
Nean #295; #316; #388 - Thanks.
Tha Wookie #296; #312; #332 - Thanks.
#332 - Great post!
orangebug #298 - Bingo! (again)
#299 - smart move
Bulldog #311 - FYI. It's $300.
#313; #322 - sounds like a reforming internegator. Maybe there is hope.
MOWGLI16 #327 - Good point!
L. Wolf #337 - Thnk Y!
#363 - An accurate assessment.
domnokmis #344 - Thanks. Yet another new objective voice of reason.
gpsblake #349 - Your sight is very good!
#359 - Smart move.
rcli4 #373 - My one-page 'book' (24th edition) can be downloaded for free by visiting my website www.warrendoyle.com (http://www.warrendoyle.com)

Happy trails to all!

[Sly]

Simple fact (and question): I love walking on the Appalachian Trail. Don't you?

Not that much. I prefer western trails, more diverse, more scenic, more wildlife, more of a challenge, less crowded.

[MedicineMan]

saw somewhere that jacks real name was Larry Tarlin, typed that into yahoo and of course got many hits...one led to an archived discussion/argument where the Lyon Kings movie was supposedly lamasted by jack as reported by the Lyon King, then Jack's rebuttal.....in it he calls him the lyin' king....when i read that i almost broke a rib laughing so hard!

[Jack Tarlin]

Gee, glad you're so amused this morning.

1. My name isn't Larry, tho I've been called worse things in my time.
2. Mike and I (Lion King) have long since resolved our differences, and this
old dispute doesn't need to be resurrected.

That's about it.

[warren doyle]

Gosh, since someone else resurrected this thread, I guess I'll put in my 2 cents worth:

There will be an upcoming Appalachian Trail Institute from May 15-18 (Monday-Thursday) here at Lees-McRae College, about a one hour drive to Damascus Trail Days. Right now we have seven AT dreamers attending. It still is not too late to attend.

For more info, see my website below.

Happy trails!

[MedicineMan]

and glad you and the Lyon King are at peace...I'm usually so far behind the curve on this 'discussions' I always step in at the wrong time. Of course no offense intended to either party...

[MOWGLI]

saw somewhere that jacks real name was Larry Tarlin...


You've got it all wrong. Larry is L. Wolf's real name. The L stands for Larry.

[max patch]

Man, Mowgli, you change your pics more than anyone. Hate to say it but I don't recognize this one. Who is it?

[D'Artagnan]

Man, Mowgli, you change your pics more than anyone. Hate to say it but I don't recognize this one. Who is it?

Isn't it "Bacala" -- Bobby Baccalieri from the Soprano's?

[Mags]

Man, Mowgli, you change your pics more than anyone. Hate to say it but I don't recognize this one. Who is it?

Mmm...bacala...

http://www.recipelink.com/mf/31/12954

Had it every Christmas Eve growing up...

[MOWGLI]

Bacala it is. He showed a little fire in last nights episode. Got me thinkin.... I wonder what it'll be next?!

[Tin Man]

Bacala it is. He showed a little fire in last nights episode. Got me thinkin.... I wonder what it'll be next?!

If Paulie keeps it up, his prostrate is going to be the least of his worries.

Getting back to the trail, has anyone picked up a trail name from the Soprano's? :D

[Ewker]

this was an entertaining thread

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Thanks for the entertainment. I haven't laughed this hard in a while. It would be hard to find a brighter or more loving bunch - even when y'all are tearing each other a new one.

[MedicineMan]

its like that in every aspect of life, here in the hospital we have our primadonna docs that are in the limelight for one reason or another (one was caught in the stairwell behind CICU pounding a nurse last week)...in the WB limelite its usually the multiple-thru-hiker who do what it takes to maintain their position on top of the mountain. Sometimes we commoners sitting in the gallery have to laugh at the madness.

[D'Artagnan]

If Paulie keeps it up, his prostrate is going to be the least of his worries.

Getting back to the trail, has anyone picked up a trail name from the Soprano's? :D


I could think of a few I might rename "Big P***y"! :D