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warren doyle
11-24-2005, 14:07
Just wanted to let the AT Class of 2006 know that the last ATI before the thru-hiking season starts will be held from Dec. 16-19 at Lees-McRae College in Banner Elk, NC (near the trail in the Roan Highlands). Right now, we have ten folks signed up, all potential Class of 2006 thru-hikers. For more info on the ATI, see my website below.
Happy trails!
Warren

Jack Tarlin
11-24-2005, 15:05
Gosh, thanks for once again taking advantage of this website to shamelessly advertise that hikers have the opportunity to purchase elsewhere what they can get here for free.

If by any chance you've anything else to offer Whiteblaze other than a sales pitch, by all means let us know sometime.

k4kam
11-24-2005, 15:28
Warren,

Thanks for making the opportunity available. I'm looking forward to being there.

Now, if only the weather will cooperate - this Florida boy's car doesn't have 4-wheel drive, snow tires, or chains!

John "K4KAM" Warne.

MOWGLI
11-24-2005, 16:09
Gosh, thanks for once again taking advantage of this website to shamelessly advertise that hikers have the opportunity to purchase elsewhere what they can get here for free.

If by any chance you've anything else to offer Whiteblaze other than a sales pitch, by all means let us know sometime.

Gee Jack, didn't you just lecture somebody about not trying to play Administrator? Let me remind you of your own words from a couple of weeks ago.


It's Rock's site, unless you hadn't noticed, Weary.

It's legitimate for him to administer it in any way he sees fit.

People unhappy with this can learn to deal with it, or they're welcome to go elsewhere.



Happy Thanksgiving Warren.

Tha Wookie
11-24-2005, 16:11
Thanks for passing that along, Warren.

Good luck in your courses!:sun

PS happy thanksgiving!

Jack Tarlin
11-24-2005, 16:16
Mowgli--

Lighten up.

Nobody's telling anyone how to administer this site. I'm on record as saying repeatedly that Rock and Troll are doing a great job at it.

All I'm doing is pointing out that the curious fact Mr. Doyle has contributed to this site exactly twice in the past week....and used both occasions to "sell" his knowledge and expertise; in other words, he's chosen to use this site only in order to promote a commercial enterprise. If he's contributed anything else here lately, I've managed to miss it. It should be evident to even his most ardent admirers that his interest in posting to Whiteblaze is presently limited to its usefulness as a free advertising site for his own enterprises, and that instead of helping folks out on this website by sharing his knowledge and experience, the way that thousands of other hikers do, he's instead only interested in using this website to SELL his expertise and not to freely share it.

If you can't see this, that's your problem.

warren doyle
11-24-2005, 16:21
Happy Thanksgiving to you both - MOWGLI16 and Tha Wookie.

And to k4kam - have a safe trip up here to the mountains. I too am looking forward to the upcoming ATI. It should be both fun and informative. Nothing compares to getting your information face-to-face and walking the actual trail with fellow pilgrims.

MOWGLI
11-24-2005, 16:26
Jack, if you're unhappy with the way that Warren posts here you "can learn to deal with it" or "go elsewhere."

Now go eat your turkey you cannibal. ;)

Jack Tarlin
11-24-2005, 16:31
Actually, nothing compares to helping people and answering their questions because one truly enjoys doing it, and not because one is getting compensated for it.

How curious that of the dozens of experienced and knowledgable former thru-hikers here at Whiteblaze, I can think of only one who continually uses this site in order to peddle to others, instead of to share freely.

It's actually "fun and informative" to assist folks without asking or expecting payment or reward.

But to each their own.

Bolo
11-24-2005, 16:58
Bickering aside, I've gotten a lot more useful information on this website from Jack Tarlin that I have from Warren Doyle, and I don't know either of them!

Bolo

smokymtnsteve
11-24-2005, 17:00
Jack why do U HATE AMERIKA and FREEDOM so much???

Of course Warren has the right to "sell" his knowledge to anyone who wants to buy it..


Just like to say I'm thankful for what little remaining freedoms we do have left in this "democracy" we live in,

MAKE LOVE>>NOT WAR!

HAPPY T DAY WARREN!

Singe03
11-24-2005, 17:19
I've been around the Internet since 14.4 dialup was about the only way to fly and I've never been fond of the idea of using someone else's bandwidth to advertise your business venture for free. It seems equilivant to someone putting one of those electric signs on wheels in your front yard without asking your permission, then plugging it in to your electrical outlet so you have to pay to keep it lit.

I have no objection to Mr. Doyle's business but if he wishes to advertise, why does he not sponsor the site for a month and get his name up on the front page or work out a deal with the admins to "lease" a discrete link someplace?

rickb
11-24-2005, 17:40
Warren--

Thanks for bringing your once-a-year seminar to everyone's attention. As the one person in the entire history of the AT to walk over 30,000 miles, I imagine that most potential thru hikers would be interested in hearing about it-- whether or not they intend to take advantage of it.

With 24 hours of classroom instruction (in addition to time on the trail), I can only imagine what you have to say. I think just about any thru hiker could go over the gear and mechanics of a thru hike in a few hours. Its just walking.

But perhaps you add something more. I am figuring that you must, given the extraordinarily high completion rates of those who attend. Perhaps you get into the pilgrimage thing or issues of the heart or how so much of a hike can suck. Who knows.

Happy turkey day.

Rick B
_____________________

"The first illegal immigrants were the Pilgrims" T-shirt wisdom that got me thinking

warren doyle
11-24-2005, 18:23
Happy Thanksgiving to you 'rickboudrie' and 'smokymtnsteve'!

Tha Wookie
11-24-2005, 19:11
Mowgli--

Lighten up.

Nobody's telling anyone how to administer this site. I'm on record as saying repeatedly that Rock and Troll are doing a great job at it.

All I'm doing is pointing out that the curious fact Mr. Doyle has contributed to this site exactly twice in the past week....and used both occasions to "sell" his knowledge and expertise; in other words, he's chosen to use this site only in order to promote a commercial enterprise. If he's contributed anything else here lately, I've managed to miss it. It should be evident to even his most ardent admirers that his interest in posting to Whiteblaze is presently limited to its usefulness as a free advertising site for his own enterprises, and that instead of helping folks out on this website by sharing his knowledge and experience, the way that thousands of other hikers do, he's instead only interested in using this website to SELL his expertise and not to freely share it.

If you can't see this, that's your problem.

Jack,

You crazy socialist. Haven't you ever heard of the promise and glory of Capitalism? You know, one of the basic inalienable rights that our troops are fighting for in Iraq and Cuba? Geeze, what kind of message do you think that sends to our men and women in the armed services?

God bless America, Jack!

and God bless you! ;)

TJ aka Teej
11-24-2005, 19:44
given the extraordinarily high completion rates of those who attend.


Business owners often make extraordinary claims when selling a product.
Buyer beware extrodinary claims made without any proof offered.

Here's the ENTIRE Doylie seminar FOR FREE:
Pay Doyle money.
He'll tell you his personaly authored legend.
He'll tell you the AT allows you to cry.
He'll tell you get in shape, don't carry heavy stuff, and go cheap.
He'll tell you that you will fail only by not following his plan.
He'll tell you never speak about The ATI with outsiders.

Well, there you go. Now you don't need to pay him.
You're welcome, happy trails!

TJ aka Teej
11-24-2005, 19:47
I'm looking forward to being there.


K4 - pay by check, and then stop payment! That's the Warren way!

rickb
11-24-2005, 20:34
Actually, TJ, the Warren Way is to only accept payment on the last day of class (satisfaction guaranteed!).

weary
11-24-2005, 20:46
Despite the snow and freezing rain, I, my three kids, and a batch of grandchildren drove to The Cabin today to have Thanksgiving Dinner with assorted nephews, neices, significant others and siblings.

Several cancelled at the last minute, but 18 crowded around the big table that thru hikers helped build a few years ago.

The food was great -- even the 25 pound squash that I grew last summer and cooked up yesteerday as my share of the festivities. Earl has finally finished off the dining area with pine paneling he cut from the trees on the hostel land.

The walls were decorated with several photos, including the groups that did Warren Doyle's 2000 and 2005 expeditions. I looked at the pictures carefully. I didn't see any lackeys or minions, Jack. But all had big grins on their faces, suggesting they were enjoying their walk north from Springer Mountain.

Weary

TJ aka Teej
11-24-2005, 20:53
Actually, TJ, the Warren Way is to only accept payment on the last day of class (satisfaction guaranteed!).

Is that what Warren just IMed to you, Rick?
Warren's an AT business charging money - something Warren says violates his sacred Trail principles, and therefore justifies stealing the service.
So, K4 - just attend, and don't pay! That's the Warren Way!
Thanks for clearing up exactly when ATI victims should stiff Warren, Rick!

rickb
11-24-2005, 20:58
Anyone interested in Warren's policies and program need only visit his website. One thing might deserve mention, however. His seminar is targeted at independent thru hikers who wish to backpack the entire trail, on their own. Its not related to his group hikes which are scheduled years apart.

TJ aka Teej
11-24-2005, 23:19
Nice edit, Rick.

Tha Wookie
11-24-2005, 23:50
Is that what Warren just IMed to you, Rick?
Warren's an AT business charging money - something Warren says violates his sacred Trail principles, and therefore justifies stealing the service.
So, K4 - just attend, and don't pay! That's the Warren Way!
Thanks for clearing up exactly when ATI victims should stiff Warren, Rick!

man, you've got serious problems......

Lugnut
11-25-2005, 00:40
If by any chance you've anything else to offer Whiteblaze other than a sales pitch, by all means let us know sometime.


You sure don't express any problems with some others pitching their wares here, ie, the motel in Franklin, the new hostel just north of mountain moma's, fishin' fred's business ventures.
It should be obvious to everyone that you are obsessed with your dislike of
WD and will jump at every opportunity to express that dislike. Actually, it's okay to dislike someone, or something, but to flog it like you do only diminishes your excellent reputation as a true friend to all hikers.
I don't know but that WD is a complete dickhead, I don't know him; but then most who visit this website are in the same boat. All I'm trying to point out is that you really are starting to make yourself look petty. You're better than this, Jack! ;)

Almost There
11-25-2005, 01:12
Here's a thought...Jack let it go! I agree with alot of what you say, but....people here have had a chance to make up their minds about Warren's ways. If the Aryan Nation wants to post an ad in the local free paper by all means they're welcome doesn't mean I am going to join!!! I would never pay someone for something others offer for free, and there are plenty around here who will offer such advice for free! What I have learned about LD hiking I have learned by trial and error in conjunction with observing and asking questions of those more experienced than I. It has worked perfectly and I have paid no one for this knowledge!!! Soooo....if Warren wants to toot his own horn and hawk his wares then so be it, if Rock and Troll have a problem then they'll step in, otherwise let it go, have a Jack and Coke and think about what makes you happy, not about what doesn't! Oh, and if we ever meet Jack, I will be more than happy to buy you a round.

Tha Wookie
11-25-2005, 02:43
Here's a thought...Jack let it go! I agree with alot of what you say, but....people here have had a chance to make up their minds about Warren's ways. If the Aryan Nation wants to post an ad in the local free paper by all means they're welcome doesn't mean I am going to join!!! I would never pay someone for something others offer for free, and there are plenty around here who will offer such advice for free! What I have learned about LD hiking I have learned by trial and error in conjunction with observing and asking questions of those more experienced than I. It has worked perfectly and I have paid no one for this knowledge!!! Soooo....if Warren wants to toot his own horn and hawk his wares then so be it, if Rock and Troll have a problem then they'll step in, otherwise let it go, have a Jack and Coke and think about what makes you happy, not about what doesn't! Oh, and if we ever meet Jack, I will be more than happy to buy you a round.

Um... Jack and Coke?

Skeemer
11-25-2005, 08:42
Why don't you guys who want to "give it a rest" or "let it go" go find something else to do...this is a forum for crissakes where people exchange points of view...argue things...give strong felt personal opinions, etc. Just because you get tired of the bantering back and forth doesn't mean the rest of us do...some of us can't wait to see BJ's response to "YOU DUMB FUHCH!"

I did get into trouble on another thread when I reminded BJ he wasn't a "Trail God"...he demanded an apology...I never did...okay I'm sorry BJ...sort of sorry...no, I'm not sorry, but I still respect your opinions.

Whenever I've been person to person with WD40 (how's that...he is pretty slick?) he seems like an okay guy. But, I am with BJ in that I would like him not to be so damn arrogant about making up the rules for himself. I admit, I don't like college professors in general...they get so big headed when they get tenier and can't be fired." I was jokingly paying him a compliment on his thread about "how he landed that babe and was she really his wife." He came back with this serious answer...like I really didn't believe she was his wife...he needs to lighten up. We all need to lighten up a little and not get angry when people call us names. Hell, look at what I've been called by Mountain Dew and I don't hate him...although I'm not sure I'd send flowers to his funeral.

Youngblood
11-25-2005, 11:32
I think Sarge and Rick are the administrators of this site. They should not allow other individuals to take over this site and effectively ban someone else because they have competive or personal issues with them. There are plenty on people allowed to post on here that aren't always popular without being subjected to constant, distasteful and overwhelming harrassment.

The administrators of this site have addressed the issue of annoucement of AT or hiking related services or products before. Warren hasn't done anything that I have seen that goes beyond what has been done many times before.

Youngblood

MOWGLI
11-25-2005, 11:49
I think Sarge and Rick are the administrators of this site. They should not allow other individuals to take over this site and effectively ban someone else because they have competive or personal issues with them. There are plenty on people allowed to post on here that aren't always popular without being subjected to constant, distasteful and overwhelming harrassment.



You know Youngblood, I'd betcha if Jack spent half the time he does attacking Warren - working on an AT trail guide, hikers would have a heckuva resource available to them. Of course, based on Jack's recent postings, he'd have to give it away for free, 'cause afterall;

... nothing compares to helping people and answering their questions because one truly enjoys doing it, and not because one is getting compensated for it.

Ain't that right Jack? ;)

Tin Man
11-25-2005, 11:59
Some might argue WD's post belongs on a buy/sell forum, if there was one for services - I know there is one for gear - but then again, what is in the name of a forum? You can bypass any thread regardless of forum. Instead, all the attention this thread is getting is because of all the attention we are giving it.

As pointed out earlier, this isn't just WD. I see Fishin Fred is gearing up for the holidays with his "donations accepted" website postings, yet no one is complaining there. While I hate to see WB get overburdened with commercialism, I have no problem with a few individuals engaged in a little private enterprise.

weary
11-25-2005, 12:03
The administrators of this site have addressed the issue of annoucement of AT or hiking related services or products before. Warren hasn't done anything that I have seen that goes beyond what has been done many times before. Youngblood
We all have to make a living. WD has chosen a wiser way than most of us. I can think of few nicer way to live than teaching "Appalachian Studies" and giving advice about thru hiking.

I suspect Warren's distractors are more influenced by jealousy than his practices. I've been backpacking for 60 years or more. But I don't doubt that Warren would have a few useful things to tell me.

White Blaze offers a lot of good advice -- and occasionally bad advice. Who better to separate the two than someone with 30,000 miles of trail experience?

Weary

Youngblood
11-25-2005, 12:08
We all have to make a living. WD has chosen a wiser way than most of us. I can think of few nicer way to live than teaching "Appalachian Studies" and giving advice about thru hiking.

I suspect Warren's distractors are more influenced by jealousy than his practices. I've been backpacking for 60 years or more. But I don't doubt that Warren would have a few useful things to tell me.

White Blaze offers a lot of good advice -- and occasionally bad advice. Who better to separate the two than someone with 30,000 miles of trail experience?

Weary
Dang Weary... there you go again trying to act like a wise old man.

Have a great holiday season,
Youngblood

TJ aka Teej
11-25-2005, 17:34
you've got serious problems......

Wookie, you're one of the few to approve of Warren's confessed A.T. thievery and trespassing. Without being too hypocritical, please explain why you have a problem with people stealing from Warren?

I'll understand if you have a serious problem with my question.

Miss Janet
11-26-2005, 13:31
A few years ago I had talked to the ATC and then the Forest Service very seriously about conducting some small backpacking workshops for beginners and special interest hikers. I had wanted to take these small groups on the AT for an overnight hike and was told I had to have a back country guide permit. This would have led to thousands of $$$ worth of insurance and a long process including different kinds of studies to be conducted by the Forest Service. On my own I could not afford to do these workshops under those circumstances. Warren, what kind of permit do you have to get to do ATI classes on the AT? I know it is different from state to state but you might have some helpful information for me. I still see a need for the kinds of classes I want to offer but I want to do this the right way.

Jack Tarlin
11-26-2005, 17:23
Hey Mowgli---

I really don't spend that much time on WD, believe me, no matter what you evidently believe. And as for your suggesting all the great things I could do with all my free time, well, thanx, but I don't really need your suggestions. Oddly enough, I manage to keep occupied without your advice. Among other things over the years, I've posted here something like 2000 times, and about 99% of my posts haven't had diddly to do with WD; I've engaged in extended private correspondence with all sorts of people, have met with folks in person to answer their questions, have written and annually updated lengthy artices that seem to have helped a lot of folks, etc. What I HAVEN'T done is come to this website twenty-odd times offering to SELL what I know. I don't see anyone else volunteering to do that either, in fact, Mr. Doyle is the ONLY well-known long-distance hiker I know who is doing this on a regular and persistent basis. I personally think these repeated attempts to shill his alleged expertise are tiresome, unseemly, and somewhat tacky, but you're welcome to think otherwise; last I checked it was still a free country.

And Youngblood, please go out back and untwist your knickers. Nobody's banning Doyle or anyone else. This has been pointed out here around ten times, but you apparently missed it, all ten times. As has been said more times than I can remember, by myself and plenty of other folks, he's welcome to post and contribute here anytime he wishes to, as long as he realizes that everyone's an equal here and nobody gets pampered or treated "special." Nobody gets their own personal thread, section, or bully pulpit. And he's not being "harassed." People have merely commented or passed judgment on some of the pearls of wisdom he's chosen to pass along.....and frequently, they've disagreed with him. Youngblood, guess what: That's what an interactive Web Forum is all about: You post what you like, when you like, knowing full well that by doing so, it invites commentary and criticism. If one is too thin-skinned to do this, them one can stop posting or open their own website....which, by the way, Mr. Doyle has, last time I checked. But he hasn't been banned or driven off, Youngblood, despite what you and others have repeatedly insinuated. He can chime in anytime he wants to, on any subject. Lately, tho, he seems primarily interested in selling his "Institute" and that's about it; if he's had any other advice, counsel, or "education" to offer this past week, I seem to have missed it. But if he actually decides to be an "educator" and share with us what he knows and what he's learned, of course he's welcome to do so; I'm sure there are folks who'd look forward to this. If he doesn't, then it's apparent he's more interested in selling his knowhow here as opposed to freely sharing it, which of course is his right. If he wants to be a peddlar instead of an educator, more power to him. His choice.

But enough already with him being "banned" or "driven off." This accusation is tiresome and false. If he truly wants to have anything to do with Whiteblaze other than hawking his "Institute," well he's free to do it. If not, well that's his choice, too, but it should pretty well display what his true feeling towards Whiteblaze is.

weary
11-26-2005, 17:36
Hey Mowgli---....This has been pointed out here around ten times, ,,,,.
Yes, Jack. We know. Just once or twice would have been plenty.

smokymtnsteve
11-26-2005, 17:44
11...12..13...25...50

and on and on and on!

Jack Tarlin
11-26-2005, 17:50
Hey Weary...it keeps getting repeated because people like you refuse to acknowledge it.

If your champion wants to post here, absolutely nothing is preventing him. What part of your brain seems to have a problem accepting this?

If he doesn't want to publish anything here except ads, well nothing's preventing that, either.

In one of your recent posts, Weary, you mentioned that even after 60 years of backcountry knowledge, you're still sure that Mr. Doyle has a few useful things to tell you.

Perhaps you're right, but I think it sort of amusing that you might have to settle for staying ignorant....it seems that's he's only interested in imparting this knowledge if you wanna pay for it.

You willing to pay for it, Weary? You attending the Institute?

If not, then maybe this knowledge isn't quite as useful or valuable as you think, no?

Or maybe, like most folks, you'd rather share and get your information elsewhere.....freely.

smokymtnsteve
11-26-2005, 17:57
51...55...62..67...

Youngblood
11-26-2005, 18:35
.... As has been said more times than I can remember, by myself and plenty of other folks, he's welcome to post and contribute here anytime he wishes to, as long as he realizes that everyone's an equal here and nobody gets pampered or treated "special." ...
Jack,

Jack Tarlin, you were doing okay with this statement until you got to the "as long as..." part. It seems that you, Jack Tarlin, have put yourself in the postion that Jack Tarlin decides who gets to post here, because you, Jack Tarlin, are deciding what the rules are. Did I miss the notice where Jack Tarlin makes the rules?

Youngblood

PS. I included your name in one paragraph more times than you used mine in your paragraph, do I get 'points'?:D

And Jack, if you want to set up a thread where folks can ask questions directly to you, I wouldn't have a problem and I don't think most anyone else would either. You certainly have a lot to say about the AT and AT related issues... more that most of us. Same with Warren and some others as well. I, on the other hand, would feel pretty foolish doing that seeing as how I'm just a one-timer and there are so many other folks on this site with as much experience or more. However, in other venues, it could very well be appropriate for questions to be directed specifically to me... if I were participating in a thru-hiker's seminar, backpacker's seminar, hammock camping seminar, etc.

Jack Tarlin
11-26-2005, 18:55
Youngblood---

This is REALLY getting tiresome. Jack Tarlin doesn't make the rules here. Jack Tarlin has no interest in making the rules here. Troll and Rock do that, and in my opinion, they do a great job.

So, no, Youngblood, nobody ever decided that I can make the rules here, or decide who posts here. Do you have any reading comp whatsoever?

There are thousands of members and contributors here....Warren or anyone else can post here till Kingdom Come, and nobody here, least of all me, regulates this. Let's try one last time, maybe it'll penetrate:

If Mr. Doyle wishes to contribute the wealth of his knowledge and expertise here, in order to help and educate folks, there is absolutely NOTHING to prevent him from doing so. If all he wants to do is offer this materiel for sale, well that's his choice, too.

Got it?

Likewise, I'm glad you don't see any problem with my having my own section of the webiste, but guess what? I don't want one.

Other than I probably hike more than most folks, my voice and input here is no more special or entitled than anyone else's. I neither want, nor merit my own thread, section, or podium. And if folks want to ask me a direct poited question, guess what? They can do so at any time, anywhere on the site they wish to. And you know what? I'll address the questsion too, and not ignore comments or questions from folks I disdain.

And you know what? If folks wanna ask Mr. Doyle (or anyone else) a direct question, they can do that, too. Any old time they want. Absolutely NOTHING is preventing this sort of one-on-one-discourse, so I don't know what you're so upset about.

Mr. Doyle hasn't been silenced, banned, or driven out. He can help folks out and "educate" here anytime he wishes to. He can answer questions directed to the public; he can concentrate on queries directed to him personally. In short, he can participate as much---or as little---as he wishes to. Same as anyone else.

The fact that he evidently doesn't wish to participate anymore if he has to do so as an equal, and not from a "special" position, well that's HIS decision.

Youngblood, it's nice that you have no problem with me setting my my own personal section of the site, devoted to my wit and wisdom, where I could ask questions that were just meant for me to ponder.

But I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in doing this, and nor should anyone else. If someone wishes to preach like that, it would be more seemly and fitting that do it from their own website, and not this one.

And that's entirely the point I've been trying to make.

MOWGLI
11-26-2005, 18:55
Hey Mowgli---

I really don't spend that much time on WD, believe me, no matter what you evidently believe. And as for your suggesting all the great things I could do with all my free time, well, thanx, but I don't really need your suggestions. Oddly enough, I manage to keep occupied without your advice. Among other things over the years, I've posted here something like 2000 times, and about 99% of my posts haven't had diddly to do with WD;

I'll be the 2nd one to recognize that your helpful here Jack, but to suggest that 99% of your 2000 posts have nothing to do with WD? I have neither the time nor the inclination to count the number of posts you take shots at Warren, but I can guarantee you its more than 40. Lots more. I'd say that 85-90% of your posts have nothing to do with Warren - and that's an honest guesstimate. And remember, I've been here at WB just about as long as you have - paying attention most of the time.

And regarding banning Warren, let me just add this. If you treated Warren in the workplace, the way that you do here at WB, any Manager worth his salt would reprimand you (warn/suspend/fire) for creating a hostile work environment (ie: harrassment). There are lots of folks here who see it that way. Evidently you're not one of those people. Yeah, I know, this isn't the workplace. And yes, Warren has brought some of this on himself, but you and a handful of others take it way-way too far.

MOWGLI
11-26-2005, 19:03
OK, so I suck at math. :D

Youngblood
11-26-2005, 19:08
...So, no, Youngblood, nobody ever decided that I can make the rules here, or decide who posts here. Do you have any reading comp whatsoever?...

Jack, all modesty aside, I have always thought I had excellent reading comp... and I agree all this is getting tiresome. Hope you, Jack Tarlin, have a great Thrashgiving.

Youngblood

kyhipo
11-26-2005, 19:09
have anything happing in March warren?:-? ky be nice to hit the Roan Area, absolutely love that area.

Jack Tarlin
11-26-2005, 19:20
Couldn't have said it better, Mowgli.

This isn't the workplace, so your analogy is absurd.

This is a public, interactive Website, where it's expected that people will disagree, get criticized, get flamed. And usually anonymously. Mr. Doyle is to be commended in that at least he signs his posts.

But an interactive web forum can sometimes be a heated and hostile place. Most of us realize this, and are willing to put up with it. As you know, Mowgli, I'm no stranger to flak here, or personal attack, but the difference is, I don't bunch up my skirts and flee, wailing about how mean and sharp the Internet can be.

Because that's the way the Internet is, Mowgli.

If Mr. Doyle doesn't like the way some of his comments or ideas are treated here on a public Forum, he can either develp a thicker skin, or he can preach to the choir AT HIS OWN website, where he can presumably have more editorial control over what is said and posted.

That's the way everyone else operates here.....they post what they want, when they want, knowing full well that it's inevitable that some of their comments will be questioned or criticized. And if they can't deal with this reality, then they can go to other websites, or they can develop and build their own.

Kinda simple, no?

The Old Fhart
11-26-2005, 19:27
MOWGLI16-"If you treated Warren in the workplace, the way that you do here at WB, any Manager worth his salt would reprimand you (warn/suspend/fire) for creating a hostile work environment (ie: harrassment)." ....and if Warren behaved in the workplace like he does on the trail, any manager worth his(or her) salt would have him fired/fined/jailed. (ie:incarcerated) :D

MOWGLI
11-26-2005, 19:36
....and if Warren behaved in the workplace like he does on the trail, any manager worth his(or her) salt would have him fired/fined/jailed. (ie:incarcerated) :D

Very good "oh windy one." :D

The Old Fhart
11-26-2005, 19:44
Thank you, MOWGLI16

SGT Rock
11-26-2005, 20:23
Geez, Warren can't start a thread without this turning into a war. I will issue everyone on this thread a pistol and let them walk 10 paces to settle this. Of course it might take 3 or 4 on each side, but it should be a PPV event.

TJ aka Teej
11-26-2005, 20:37
White Blaze offers a lot of good advice -- and occasionally bad advice. Who better to separate the two than someone with 30,000 miles of trail experience?

Weary, since Warren has rejoined us some of the Whiteblaze threads he could have advised on but choose not to were about: stream fords in Maine, trails in North Carolina, sleeping bags, ground sheets, Thru-hiker surveys, Box Turtles, favorite quotes, mice, hostels and hiker behavior, ALDHA, wearing safety orange, New Jersey, first aid kits, Baxter, Springer, the trail's steepest mile, the SoRuck, raccoons, seam sealing, dogs, footwear, using gear at home, fear of darkness ghosts and heights, physical prep for an AT hike, homemade gear, LNT, water filtering, car camping, food options, stoves, Thanksgiving, health insurance, trail names, thru-hike definitions, inexpensive gear, questions for past thru-hikers, sleeping bags, tents, books, hike recommendations and questions on trails shelters towns and parks in your own area, bears, one pot meals, car access to the trail, what you would change about the AT, what you would do differently, leg cramps and muscle problems, what to do when you get hurt, favorite time of year on the AT, camera batteries, who inspired you, waterproof packs and bivys, on trail GPS and cell phone use- and those are just threads he's dodged. Add to that the questions he's ducked that he's been asked directly in the threads he's started! All that, Weary, and the only advice Warren has for WB members is to pay him money and attend the ATI. "30,000" miles indeed - but what has he learned?

TJ aka Teej
11-26-2005, 20:42
I will issue everyone on this thread a pistol
I have my Dad's .45 Rock - but at ten paces I'd be lucky to hit a blue blaze with it!

TreeKillerJ

SGT Rock
11-26-2005, 20:47
If'n you want some training, I'll start a SGT Rock's Appalachian Trail Gun Totin' school and I'll teach you how to knock the eyes out of a humming bird's eyeballs at 50 meters.

But honestly, with my .45 I might could only do it at 25 meters or so.

Skeemer
11-26-2005, 20:55
MOWGLI16said to BJ:
If you treated Warren in the workplace, the way that you do here at WB, any Manager worth his salt would reprimand you (warn/suspend/fire) for creating a hostile work environment (ie: harrassment).

Not really M, a hostile work environment applies to protected classes like women, minorities, handicapped, etc. Of course WD40 is getting along so he could claim age discrimination. Any manager worth his salt would commend BJ for questioning WD's work ethics.

On the other hand WD is probably used to getting away with murder because once a professor gets tenure you can't fire them for any reason.

TJ aka Teej
11-26-2005, 21:16
...yes, Warren has brought some of this on himself,

The first WB mention of Warren's boorish behavior at the 01 Gathering was made by Warren. The first WB mention of Warren's arrest at Baxter was made by Warren. The first WB mentions of the ATI and Circle Expeditions were made by Warren. Warren took to posting here before the 04 Gathering falsley claiming to speak for ALDHA and the Gathering site and used disinformation to try to disrupt that Gathering and divide ALDHA. Warren was the first to bring up his confessed to and/or advocated thievery and trespass. Warren's been asked scores of questions about his behavior and his various claims - and he has refused to respond.

Yeah, he's brought some of this on himself, Mowgli.

TJ aka Teej
11-26-2005, 21:24
I'll teach you how to knock the eyes out of a humming bird's eyeballs at 50 meters.

The hummers are all safe around me. At 50 meters I couldn't even hit a bear with it. Long story...

StauteOfLimitationsJ

MOWGLI
11-26-2005, 21:53
Not really M, a hostile work environment applies to protected classes like women, minorities, handicapped, etc. Of course WD40 is getting along so he could claim age discrimination. Any manager worth his salt would commend BJ for questioning WD's work ethics.

Actually Skeemer, the statement was based on my experiences as a Manager for a Fortune 500 Company for 14 years. There is a narrow definition that involves race, gender, religion, etc.. BUT based on a '98 Supreme Court ruling, many companies (including the one I worked for) treat harrassment by supervisors, peers, and outside vendors as potentially creating a hostile work environment.

Nice try though. :D

MOWGLI
11-26-2005, 21:57
The first WB mention of Warren's boorish behavior at the 01 Gathering was made by Warren. The first WB mention of Warren's arrest at Baxter was made by Warren. The first WB mentions of the ATI and Circle Expeditions were made by Warren. Warren took to posting here before the 04 Gathering falsley claiming to speak for ALDHA and the Gathering site and used disinformation to try to disrupt that Gathering and divide ALDHA. Warren was the first to bring up his confessed to and/or advocated thievery and trespass. Warren's been asked scores of questions about his behavior and his various claims - and he has refused to respond.

Yeah, he's brought some of this on himself, Mowgli.

Blah, blah blah blah. You're right, he deserves Capital Punishment - especially considering the Bear Mountain Zoo incident. Good thing Warren doesn't live in Texas.

Jack Tarlin
11-26-2005, 22:02
Hey, Mowg, since this whole thread deals with the propriety of WD's repeated use of Whiteblaze in order to promote a personal sales enterprise, does this make him a hostile "outside vendor?"

Just askin'. :D

MOWGLI
11-26-2005, 22:10
Hey, Mowg, since this whole thread deals with the propriety of WD's repeated use of Whiteblaze in order to promote a personal sales enterprise, does this make him a hostile "outside vendor?"

Just askin'. :D
I donno Jack. Maybe you should file a charge with SGT Rock and see what he says. :-? My guess is he'll reference the attachment (which I swiped from him) in his response - or something similar. :D In fact, he'd probably say the same thing to me for perpetuating this nonsense.

All barbs aside Jack, I hope you had a good Thanksgiving and a better Trashgiving next week.

Jack Tarlin
11-26-2005, 22:17
Many thanx, Mowg..... sorry you're so far away. Blister bastes a mean turkey and at least a thousand hikers have eaten my lasagna over the years with no reported fatalities as yet.

Of course, being hikers with no social graces whatsoever, only around three people have formally RSVP'd so we don't really know if we're serving fifteen or fifty, which makes for interesting shopping and cooking plans.

Maybe you'll make it next year. And who knows....we could still be eating leftovers from THIS year!

smokymtnsteve
11-26-2005, 22:57
mmm....leftovers maybe U should invite WD :datz

TJ aka Teej
11-26-2005, 22:59
Blah, blah blah blah. You're right, he deserves Capital Punishment - especially considering the Bear Mountain Zoo incident. Good thing Warren doesn't live in Texas.

Your indignation would be a lot more interesting to me if it weren't quite so covered in crap.

MOWGLI
11-26-2005, 23:12
Your indignation would be a lot more interesting to me if it weren't quite so covered in crap.
Teej, I'm not indignant. I just don't share your sense of outrage.

TJ aka Teej
11-26-2005, 23:22
Teej, I'm not indignant. I just don't share your sense of outrage.

Mowgli, I'm not outraged. I'm right.

smokymtnsteve
11-26-2005, 23:49
Nobody is RIGHT..If everybody is WRONG :rolleyes:

Nightwalker
11-27-2005, 00:57
Nobody is RIGHT..If everybody is WRONG :rolleyes:
And in an argument that's went on this long and stupidly, by now EVERYBODY has made it across the line. And I'm saying that knowing that I have two friends in it, on opposite sides. Maybe we could move all WD crap to the "thick skinned" forum, if that's still around.

:)

The Solemates
11-29-2005, 10:24
Maybe we could move all WD crap to the "thick skinned" forum, if that's still around.

:)

half the people on WB deserve to be in that forum. let it go guys....let it die.

MOWGLI
11-29-2005, 10:59
half the people on WB deserve to be in that forum. let it go guys....let it die.

I think you meant the thin skinned forum. Or was that the thick headed forum?

Lone Wolf
11-29-2005, 11:10
Gosh, thanks for once again taking advantage of this website to shamelessly advertise that hikers have the opportunity to purchase elsewhere what they can get here for free.

If by any chance you've anything else to offer Whiteblaze other than a sales pitch, by all means let us know sometime.
Hikers can camp for FREE on the AT. They don't NEED to pay to stay in a motel or hostel yet you have no problem with your buds advertising thier establishments on here.

weary
11-29-2005, 11:14
Mowgli, I'm not outraged. I'm right.
Some ethical questions, TJ. On our trip west to visit the National Parks my wife and I stopped at a motel that caters to AT hikers. I was told that the hiker rate was $40.

Question one. I was a bit bedraggled and certainly looked like a hiker, which I am, but just not that particular day. Should I have explained my circumstance or just paid the $40?

I'm not saying what my choice was. I don't want to prejudice the answers. But I reached into my wallet for a credit card to pay my bill and was told that they add 14 percent for credit card payments to cover the 7% state lodging tax and the cost of processing a credit card.

Question two: Are hikers who pay cash to avoid the state tax equally unethical as you think WD is for walking past the North Maine Woods gate to save money, more unethical, or less unethical? -- and why?

Finally: Should hikers even patronize an establishment that cheats the taxpayers of a trail state out of a lodging tax?

Weary

Tha Wookie
11-29-2005, 11:25
Hikers can camp for FREE on the AT. They don't NEED to pay to stay in a motel or hostel yet you have no problem with your buds advertising thier establishments on here.

It's ok, because it's a double standard. That's one of Jacks favorite rules that he's permitted on Whiteblaze.net.

Some people will go to any length to rationalize their obsessions.

D'Artagnan
11-29-2005, 16:40
I hope not to offend any of the ladies who might be following this thread, but it sounds to me like a lot of you guys just need to get laid. Next!

TJ aka Teej
11-29-2005, 17:48
Question one. I was a bit bedraggled and certainly looked like a hiker, which I am, but just not that particular day. Should I have explained my circumstance or just paid the $40?

Question two: Are hikers who pay cash to avoid the state tax equally unethical as you think WD is for walking past the North Maine Woods gate to save money, more unethical, or less unethical? -- and why?

Finally: Should hikers even patronize an establishment that cheats the taxpayers of a trail state out of a lodging tax?

You are an Internagor. I will not answer your questions.

Jack Tarlin
11-29-2005, 18:31
Aw, Wook, all sorts of things are permitted here on Whiteblaze....including you being a sanctimonius little tool.

There's no double standard whatsoever....for example, you've repeatedly advertised your seminars here, but not once have I ever objected....partly because they sound like worthy ventures, and partly because your daily political drivel notwithstanding, you do occasionally contribute interesting and useful stuff here. For example, the environmental advocacy education you do here is admirable, at least til you go screaming off on a "Bush is Satan!" rant, which greatly diminishes your attempts to educate folks.

Mr. Doyle, on the other hand, has chosen to contribute NOTHING lately except advertisements, i.e. this is presently his SOLE contribution to this site, and that's what I object to. He's not an educator; he's a peddlar, and he has essentially let us know that his sole and exclusive interest in visiting this site is to sell goods.

If you can't see the difference, that's your problem.

Tha Wookie
11-29-2005, 18:45
Aw, Wook, all sorts of things are permitted here on Whiteblaze....including you being a sanctimonius little tool.

There's no double standard whatsoever....for example, you've repeatedly advertised your seminars here, but not once have I ever objected....partly because they sound like worthy ventures, and partly because your daily political drivel notwithstanding, you do occasionally contribute interesting and useful stuff here. For example, the environmental advocacy education you do here is admirable, at least til you go screaming off on a "Bush is Satan!" rant, which greatly diminishes your attempts to educate folks.

Mr. Doyle, on the other hand, has chosen to contribute NOTHING lately except advertisements, i.e. this is presently his SOLE contribution to this site, and that's what I object to. He's not an educator; he's a peddlar, and he has essentially let us know that his sole and exclusive interest in visiting this site is to sell goods.

If you can't see the difference, that's your problem.

Well I do certainly appreciate the benefit of the doubt on my behalf Jack, beyond the sanctimonial applicator comment....:p

But the truth is, it's not just my problem, but anyone who wants to hear what Warren has to say.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who values his input. His speech on the "How to Hike the AT" video is one of the most inspiring things I've heard.

Your attacks on him for anything and everything rate as the least.

Maybe he would contribute more hand-out information if you would give him chance without the predictable instantaneous reprimand for being Warren.

The double standard is that you open fire on him for something that many people do. Look at all the examples.

Improve your life and give Warren a break.

Think about it.....

weary
11-29-2005, 18:52
You are an Internagor. I will not answer your questions.
At last I'm convinced. WD must be truly an evil influence. Two trail heroes, first BJ, and now Teej, have refused to answer direct questions after months of telling one an all that they always answer direct questions.. Surely, only a truly evil person -- perhaps even a cult person -- could have brought about such a change.

Let's all beware of the evil forces afloat on White Blaze.

Jack Tarlin
11-29-2005, 19:21
Geez, Wook, you're tiresome.

All you see is what you want.

For at least the twelfth time, he can contribute anytime he wants on this site, anywhere he wants, as long as he's willing to do it as an equal with no special rights or privileges.

And if he can't take commentary and criticism----which is what an Internet open Forum is all about---then he needs a thicker skin.

And so do you.

If his only interest in this site is hawking what he knows instead of helping folks for free, well that's HIS decision, not mine.

What's so difficult about this simple fact for people like Wook to understand?
People accuse me of bringing this up all the time. Wrong. I wouldn't have to write something like the above at all, never mind again and again if Wook and some other folks would acknowledge one simple fact: Their hero isn't interested in contributing here unless he can do it from a lectern, and will hang around only if he's guaranteed a pass when it comes to comments, criticisms, or complaints about what he's chosen to contribute. Without these guidelines and restrictions, he's obviously not interested in being here....unless it's to sell folks stuff they can get elsewhere for free.

Sorry you still don't get this Wook. Let's simplify it, OK, maybe it'll penetrate:
Your idol doesn't contribute anything here because he doesn't want to, OK?

If you wanna rectify this, talk to HIM. not me.

And Weary, the direct questions I refused to acknowledge, as you very well know, were ignored because they were singularly out of place. You were babbling leftist horse flop on a thread devoted to the late Johnny Cash. You were asked, out of respect, to take the argument to a more appropriate location. You refused, and were then therefore ignored, as that's generally the only way to make you shut up.

When you ask a pertinent question, in the appropriate place, I'll happily answer it. Otherwise, stop whining and sell your fish somewhere else.

Geez, this is getting old.

Wook and Weary: Mr. Doyle has his own website, which I'm sure you know. If you're that anxios to kneel at his feet and get enlightened, then you know where you can go.

I repeat, you know where you can go.

But give it a rest, OK, and start contributing stuff on topics other than world politics and the tribulations of Warren Doyle. I'm sure lots of folks are as bored with this as I am.

justusryans
11-29-2005, 19:43
I'm not saying what my choice was. I don't want to prejudice the answers. But I reached into my wallet for a credit card to pay my bill and was told that they add 14 percent for credit card payments to cover the 7% state lodging tax and the cost of processing a credit card.

Weary

Adding anything to your bill to cover credit card processing is illegal!!
You can have them by the nards!:bse

Tha Wookie
11-29-2005, 20:46
Geez, Wook, you're tiresome.

All you see is what you want.

For at least the twelfth time, he can contribute anytime he wants on this site, anywhere he wants, as long as he's willing to do it as an equal with no special rights or privileges.

And if he can't take commentary and criticism----which is what an Internet open Forum is all about---then he needs a thicker skin.

And so do you.

If his only interest in this site is hawking what he knows instead of helping folks for free, well that's HIS decision, not mine.

What's so difficult about this simple fact for people like Wook to understand?
People accuse me of bringing this up all the time. Wrong. I wouldn't have to write something like the above at all, never mind again and again if Wook and some other folks would acknowledge one simple fact: Their hero isn't interested in contributing here unless he can do it from a lectern, and will hang around only if he's guaranteed a pass when it comes to comments, criticisms, or complaints about what he's chosen to contribute. Without these guidelines and restrictions, he's obviously not interested in being here....unless it's to sell folks stuff they can get elsewhere for free.

Sorry you still don't get this Wook. Let's simplify it, OK, maybe it'll penetrate:
Your idol doesn't contribute anything here because he doesn't want to, OK?

If you wanna rectify this, talk to HIM. not me.

And Weary, the direct questions I refused to acknowledge, as you very well know, were ignored because they were singularly out of place. You were babbling leftist horse flop on a thread devoted to the late Johnny Cash. You were asked, out of respect, to take the argument to a more appropriate location. You refused, and were then therefore ignored, as that's generally the only way to make you shut up.

When you ask a pertinent question, in the appropriate place, I'll happily answer it. Otherwise, stop whining and sell your fish somewhere else.

Geez, this is getting old.

Wook and Weary: Mr. Doyle has his own website, which I'm sure you know. If you're that anxios to kneel at his feet and get enlightened, then you know where you can go.

I repeat, you know where you can go.

But give it a rest, OK, and start contributing stuff on topics other than world politics and the tribulations of Warren Doyle. I'm sure lots of folks are as bored with this as I am.

My idol? Haha!!!! I'm not the one obsessed with him!

Look in the mirror!

Thanks for the twelfth commandment. I'll email Warren and let him know your rule, 'cause he might have missed it the first eleven times.

All he has to do is make 1 post -then you make yourself look like the cog was going by.

-Every time.:clap

Jack Tarlin
11-29-2005, 20:52
Bye, Wook.

I'm working on a new Re-Supply article, so I'm sorta busy.

I simply don't have time to go round and round with you tonight, I really have more on my plate right now, like actually writing something that folks want to read and that might actually prove useful to them.

You might wanna try this yourself sometime, cuz other than blasting me at every occasion; prostrating yourself before Warren Doyle's ass; and trying to convince us that President Bush is Satan, you really don't have much to say here lately. I dunno about everyone else, but frankly, I'm bored with it.

'Bye now.

Lone Wolf
11-29-2005, 20:57
No you're not. The minute ANYONE comes back and says something somewhat nice about WD you'll be right back with some rant about how bored and tired of this thread you are.:D

Jack Tarlin
11-29-2005, 21:05
Would happily reply, Wolf, but I'm too tired and bored to do so. :D

Regards....Jack

Marta
11-29-2005, 21:09
I hope not to offend any of the ladies who might be following this thread, but it sounds to me like a lot of you guys just need to get laid. Next!

No offence taken. Thanks for the laugh!

weary
11-29-2005, 21:31
Geez, Wook, you're tiresome. All you see is what you want. For at least the twelfth time, he (Warren Doyle) can contribute anytime he wants on this site, anywhere he wants, as long as he's willing to do it as an equal with no special rights or privileges. ......
Okay Jack. You've made the claim not a DOZEN TIMES, BUT PROBABLY several dozen times. What special rights and privileges did Warren have, the withdrawal of which ended his thread?

The answer of course is that he had no special privileges, certainly none that lead to the thread being closed (unwisely, in IMHO. One should never surrender to the troublemakers). As near as I can tell, the thread was closed because the bitterness you and a few others expressed made it a repetitious, embarrassing bore to White Blaze.

Warren Doyle opened a thread offering to respond to questions based on his many thousands of miles of Appalachian Trail experience, some of which was of a less traditional kind, though from time to time hikers you have met on the trail hint on White Blaze that you also have a propensity to slackpack, and even yellow Blaze when the opportunity presents itself.

Tell us Jack. What "special privilges" was Warren Doyle granted? Who granted those privileges? And why in your opinion were those privileges taken away. if in fact they were?

Weary

Jack Tarlin
11-29-2005, 22:25
Weary:

You bleat about how many times I've discussed this matter, neglecting to mention that the only reason the points have been repeated is because some folks---like you, Weary---refuse to acknowledge them.

And it's a no-win situation: If I take the time and trouble to respond to your questions, then I'm accused of beating the subject to death. If I ignore you, then you cry like a child about your questions being ignored.

But I'll try once again, tho I realize full well it's a waste of time:

Warren's thread was closed by the site administrator, not me. If you think this makes Rock a "troublemaker", then I suggest you raise this issue with him.

The answer to your question is that Warren's sense of privilege and entitlement was entirely self-imposed: Nobody, and I mean NOBODY else here, Weary, has their own special section. We don't have a section called "Weary dispenses knowledge and wisdom...." or "Lone Wolf teaches his secrets...." or "Baltimore Jack educates newcomers..." or anything like that. We have no sites devoted to any one person's opinions or pronouncements. And this is good. Instead, we have hundreds of threads on hundreds of different subjects where people are welcome to contribute as individuals and equals on any subject they wish to. Let me stress this, because this seems to be a point you're manifestly incapable of understanding: People here at Whiteblaze contribute AS INDIVIDUALS and AS EQUALS.....nobody here looks down from a pedestal, an nobody is given their own separate part of the website to preach from. Nobody.

The other problem with a thread led or presented by an individual is this creates in the minds of some folks (like you, for example, Weary), that this is this person's personal space and fiefdom, and that therefore, it's improper, out-of-place, or even rude to disagree with him or criticize him in his "special" location. In short, Weary, by giving someone their own privileged lectern, in the minds of some folks, this means that he can't be criticized there.

And this is wrong.

No one person is special here, no one person's comments are better than anyone else's. And no one person should be given their own personal section of the website where they can preach their gospel, free from criticism or comment. Nobody's special here, Weary.

Mr. Doyle is welcome to contribute here whenever and wherever he wishes to Weary, as you well know. If he chooses not to, I suggest you bring the matter up with him.

Conversations can get heated here, Weary, as I'm sure you've noticed. Angry words are exchanged, and sometimes, unkind ones. For example, I've been the subject in recent weeks of some pretty extraordinary personal attacks, most of them anonymous. But guess what? You don't see me boo-hooing or whining about what a mean nasty place the Internet is and runiing away in tears.

The only person I can think of who's struck his tent and run off crying is your hero, Weary. In truth, it reminds me of a little kid who takes off with the baseball when they don't let him pitch.

The minute Mr. Doyle lost his private section of Whiteblaze, he effectively lost interest in the website....at least as an educator. He's not shy about letting us know that his voluminous knowledge is available for sale, but unlike the other thousands of folks who frequent this site, Weary, your idol is the only one I can think of who comes here offering to SELL his experience. (Incidentally, he does this elsewhere, too. He has recently appeared on the Trailjournals Forums. Once, naturally. To peddle his "Institute." As far as contributing anything else of substance to those Forums, he evidently isn't interested).

So I hope this answers your questions, Weary. And I really hope this concludes the matter for awhile, at least as far as I'm concerned. There are any number of things I'd rather be working on now than yet another discussion of this woeful subject.

You're right about one thing, Weary. The same points have been made here again and again.

But it's not my fault if you refuse to acknowledge them.

I'm not even sure you read them.

But in any case, I've answered your questions and see no need to do so again. If you still aren't satisfied, and if you're still in mourning over the demise of Mr. Doyle's thread, then I suggest you direct you complaints to the site administrator.

Who has, incidentally, addressed this matter already. Several times.

But it'll at least get Weary out of my hair for a little while so I can work on something substantive.

smokymtnsteve
11-30-2005, 00:19
101...105...118...125

Skeemer
11-30-2005, 00:20
BJ says:
...Nobody, and I mean NOBODY else here, Weary, has their own special section.

What about Skeemer's Retirement advice???:confused:

Frosty
11-30-2005, 00:46
Sorry you still don't get this Wook. Let's simplify it, OK, maybe it'll penetrate:
Your idol doesn't contribute anything here because he doesn't want to, OK?
Well, a bit disingenuous, don't you think? My recollection is that Doyle did once start a thread with the idea of contributing and answering questions, but a few troublemakers trashed the thread with multiple off-topic personal attacks until the administrators closed the thread.



For at least the twelfth time, he can contribute anytime he wants on this site, anywhere he wants, as long as he's willing to do it as an equal with no special rights or privileges.Those are the only restrictions you place on his being allowed to post on this site? :D

Jack Tarlin
11-30-2005, 01:02
Lots of folks get attacked or criticized here, Frosty, and sometimes the attacks are personal. You should know this, as you've been on both ends of this situation, as both a receiver and a strident giver of personal invective.

Most folks shrug this stuff off and deal with it.

Some of them run away like scalded cats.

And I don't put any restrictions on this site, Frosty. It isn't my website. I neither control the site nor do I wish to.

If you have problems with the way it's run, go whine to the proper person, OK? And that ain't me.

And by the way, Frosty, you're welcome to your "recollection." My own recollection is that he started his own personal section on this site, which was pretty presumptuous, and was then criticized and taken to task for some of what he said, advocated, or suggested. Lots of folks get taken to task here, Frosty; most of them are capable of dealing with this. That's what adults do. When Mr. Doyle realized he couldn't control the dialogue to his satisfaction, he did two things: He stopped answering questions he didn't like. Then he ran away.

That's my recollection. If it differs from yours, then that's something YOU can deal with.

Or not.

Don't much matter to me.

Tha Wookie
11-30-2005, 01:21
Jack,

I suppose that re-up info you posted didn't last that long to make.... you seemed to jump right back in, after your self-righteous exit (I'm doing something worthwhile, see!).

You just can't stand talk about Warren without jumping in, can you?

I noticed in your latest of a growing cannon of Doyle rants, that you likened him to a baseball player who doesn't get to pitch.

The funny thing is, he's been hitting all the home runs while you're jeering from the stands. Every time he steps up to the plate (at least on this site), you start moaning the same old insults, but he hasn't been flinching.

The simple fact is, you act like a bully. No one will dispute this. All they have to do is look up Warren Doyle in any thread to see you trying to push him out of the playground.

Everyone knows this.

But the way he has acted, out of dignity and self control, just makes your attempts backfire.

I like you personally, and I do think you add to new hiker's planning. But you subtract a lot from new hiker's planning too.

You lead the charge against the most accomplished AT hiker on this site. You replace what he might have said with the way you see things -good for you and your town contacts.

How much do you get anyway in return for advertising for them while you criticize others for their capitalist ventures: free stay? Free burgers? Foot massages?

Oh, but I know you've got better things to do than go round to round with me. what do I know? I'm just a dumb Georgia boy with some holes in my shoes and nothing better to do. Hell, I've only got one AT thru-hike. That probably doesn't make you uncomfortable at all.

rgarling
11-30-2005, 09:58
you can't argue with the self-righteous, because they are never wrong.

Skeemer
11-30-2005, 11:00
Okay, I'm speaking collectively for the WB posters in saying it's time to declare a verdict and move on to the penalty phase.

I have tallied the vote and I regret to inform WD40's council, The Wook and The Weary, that although they put up a gallant defense, their "Trail God" has been sentenced to death.

There is no punishment harsh enough for this indignant heratic who won't admit guilt and plead for mercy. A three judge tribunal has gotten together and imposed the following penalty:

***WD40 will be draped only in an AT sweatshirt with a yellow cross painted on the front and back. He will be locked in a pilory in the middle of Damascus for one week prior to Trail Days where he will remain until Sunday the 14th. As a method of torture, contradancing will take place in front of him around the clock.

***At dawn on the 14th, he will be taken to the camping area outside of town where he will be burned at the stake. To make sure he doesn't die an easy death of smoke inhalation, members will be asked to bring dry kindling that will be needed to ensure a "slow roast" resulting in drawn out pain and suffering.

Anticipating a huge celebration to follow, the campfire will be kept burning for weeks...saving his fans from having to scatter his ashes in that river where he took an illegal dip or over the Kennebec where he illegally waded or the any of the other places where he broke the law. (There are just too many...early in the planning, we did consider feeding him to the zoo animals where he crashed the gate, but could not be sure they would finish the job)

It's time for the tribunal to consider what to do with those who do not keep their word...such as "promising to quit posting here." My guess is BJ will euthanized as an act of mercy in return for his past contributions of valuable "Trail Town" info. (At least he didn't have that sex change operation he was considering when he heard women live longer than men.)

Both will be sadly missed...but it's something that just has to be done. We need to move on and prepare for the Apocolypse when God destroys the ruling powers (Bush) ridding the earth of evil (we did our part) and raising the righteous to eternal bliss in heaven.

Hey SMS, see ya at Trail Days!:)

Youngblood
11-30-2005, 11:05
Jack,

Why don't you write an article with all the rules (feel free to call them 'Jack's Rules' or something else) that one should abide by to post on WhiteBlaze.net? I think the heart of the problem is that we don't all agree on what the rules are. Then you won't have to keep repeating them, we will all know what they are, they can be applied equally without bias so that we can all get along better and you won't have to make the same points again and again. Feel free to point out the ones that apply to specific individuals and the specific individuals that are exempt from these as well, if situations like that exist.

Ones like,

We have no sites devoted to any one person's opinions or pronouncements. .... Instead, we have hundreds of threads on hundreds of different subjects where people are welcome to contribute as individuals and equals on any subject they wish to.

... taking advantage of this website to shamelessly advertise that hikers have the opportunity to purchase elsewhere what they can get here for free.
for example and whatever other ones you think are appropriate, of course.

It would help if they were specific enough to cover issues like hostels or other accomodations that charge for services and are within some certain distance from a campsite on the AT or an AT shelter that would be free, for example. And things like seminar's where fees may apply or new innovative products that members (or non-members) may have designed that are useful to hikers and are offered for sale. Oh, and don't forget about gatherings, rucks, etc that are AT related and may or may not involve fees. And then there are shuttles that cost money and those that don't or are included in some other price structure.

Thanks,
Youngblood

PS. After writing this, it seems kind of silly asking you to do that. In hind site it is something that the site owners should probably handle however they like, with written rules or settling it on a case by case basis or however. I guess it would be presumptious and in poor taste for you to do that... so, never mind, it was a bad idea.

Fullmoon & Piglet
11-30-2005, 11:25
I now dummer fur readin dis thread.

I'm fairly certain that Earl Shaffer is rolling over and over in his grave. Is this what the Appalachian Trail has come to?

For the love of everything that is sacred (like the AT) can we please stop the insanity?!?

Warren- I've seen you speak-you're interesting and informative and I'm sure your ATI is awesome.
Jack- I've drank beers with you in Hot Springs and you were interesting and informative too.

However, despite the fact that I've never completed the AT in one continuous jouney and both of you have many times, neither of you have told me something I don't already know. Point being- you are both great people and should be proud of your accomplishments, but neither of you possess any 'secrets'.

Warren you probably should give a little more to WB then 'selling' ATI, but that's your own choice. Jack focus your energy on helping people accomplish their dreams and don't worry about everything that other people do.

The AT is about ADVENTURE, LOVE, EXCITEMENT, EXPLORATION, DREAMS, MAGIC, PEOPLE, PEACE, and the list goes on and on!

Let's keep it that way and put down our swords on this meaningless issue. If you want to battle something I'm sure the ATC can find something more pressing for you to work on.

Tin Man
11-30-2005, 12:11
I now dummer fur readin dis thread.

I'm fairly certain that Earl Shaffer is rolling over and over in his grave. Is this what the Appalachian Trail has come to?

For the love of everything that is sacred (like the AT) can we please stop the insanity?!?

Warren- I've seen you speak-you're interesting and informative and I'm sure your ATI is awesome.
Jack- I've drank beers with you in Hot Springs and you were interesting and informative too.

However, despite the fact that I've never completed the AT in one continuous jouney and both of you have many times, neither of you have told me something I don't already know. Point being- you are both great people and should be proud of your accomplishments, but neither of you possess any 'secrets'.

Warren you probably should give a little more to WB then 'selling' ATI, but that's your own choice. Jack focus your energy on helping people accomplish their dreams and don't worry about everything that other people do.

The AT is about ADVENTURE, LOVE, EXCITEMENT, EXPLORATION, DREAMS, MAGIC, PEOPLE, PEACE, and the list goes on and on!

Let's keep it that way and put down our swords on this meaningless issue. If you want to battle something I'm sure the ATC can find something more pressing for you to work on.

All in favor say AYE. AYE. All those opposed - are you nuts?

Footslogger
11-30-2005, 12:15
What about Skeemer's Retirement advice???:confused:
===================================
Not interested in your advice Skeemer but if you're interesed in sharing your retirement wealth we should talk !!

'Slogger

Frosty
11-30-2005, 12:32
That's my recollection. If it differs from yours, then that's something YOU can deal with.

Or not.

Don't much matter to me.There are nine and sixty ways,
Of constructing Tribal Lays,
And every single one of them is right.
- Rudyard Kipling

Skeemer
11-30-2005, 12:35
'Slogger, Aren't you supposed to be working instead of fu...screwing around on the internet.

FYI, I worked hard for 31 years and earned my retirement and no longer give a crap about living like a king...all I wanna go is hike while I can. Sharing wealth?...only with people who give me trail magic.

Frosty
11-30-2005, 12:35
All in favor say AYE. AYE. All those opposed - are you nuts?AYE, AYE!!

Frosty
11-30-2005, 12:38
[QUOTE=Skeemer
FYI, I worked hard for 31 years and earned my retirement and no longer give a crap about living like a king...all I wanna go is hike while I can. Sharing wealth?...only with people who give me trail magic.[/QUOTE]I hear ya! I worked a regular job for 35 years while my writer friends worked a few months then quit to write for a while, and my hiker friends all hiked. Now they all need full time jobs in order to get health benefits, and I collect a (admittedly small) pension that includes halth insurance, and I can hike and write 'til I puke) which sometimes occurs after I've read what I've written :D

Footslogger
11-30-2005, 12:48
'Slogger, Aren't you supposed to be working instead of fu...screwing around on the internet.

FYI, I worked hard for 31 years and earned my retirement and no longer give a crap about living like a king...all I wanna go is hike while I can. Sharing wealth?...only with people who give me trail magic.
========================================
Hey ...one of the side benefits of my job is internet access. Maybe if they payed me more I'd feel guilty and not spend so much time on Whiteblaze.

As far as sharing the wealth goes ...I'll see your 31 and raise you some. But hey, I hear you about living the life of a king (not that I ever did). Bad Ass Turtle and I are just trying to finish up the ball game out here and stash enough away to support our soon to be realized (hopefully) life of travel and hiking.

So my friend ...hoard your millions, but be sure and make it out to Wyoming some day and I'll treat you to some western style trail magic.

'Slogger

Tha Wookie
11-30-2005, 13:06
AYE AYE

Bring in the wine!

Lone Wolf
11-30-2005, 13:07
There's plenty of whine to go around.:rolleyes:

One Leg
11-30-2005, 13:20
Is this what the Appalachian Trail has come to?

This is the irony of the whole thing. This has NOTHING to do with the A.T.

What we are witnessing here is the continuation of a marital arguement that began centuries ago. Warren & Jack were married in a previous lifetime. They bickered and nagged one another until one of them died.

They recycled again, as man and wife, and repeated the same scenario.

So, finally, God had enough and made 'em both men, and created them with a fondness for long distance hiking. However, instead of one choosing the PCT and one choosing the A.T., they both chose the A.T. and we're here to witness the continuing conflict.

Since they're both men (and not inferring that either are gay), they should move to England, have their previous unions re-recognized, and work out their differences, lest they be destined to repeat this in another life.

Or, instead of going to England and doing something so insane, they could simply plan, and carry out, a thru as a team. By the end of the thru, one of the following will surely occur:
a) Jack will drown Warren in the Kennebec
b) Steve "The Ferryman" Longely will tip the canoe, drowning them both.
c) At a road crossing, Warren will excuse himself to pee, only to never be seen again, as he had a van waiting there.
d) They'll reach Katahdin, celebrating the 100% success rate of their expedition, have a private circle closure, at which point Jack will pay Warren his fee.
e) Jack will have adapted/adopted some of Warren's ways, and start advising others as to how to avoid paying certain costs, fees, etc.
f) Warren will acknowledge the err of his ways and offer to repay years' worth of back fees.
g) They'll actually have become friends
h) Both die and be recycled again as man/woman. At their wedding, Wook & Weary will be the respective parent, giving their child away in marriage.

However, if they don't work out their differences, maybe one will be lucky enough to resurface as a pimple on the other's posterior. Then whichever of the two is the receipient of the pimple can take great joy in squeezing the pus out of the other.

(This post was intended as humor. No intentional infliction of harm or distress to ones' own ego, reputation, et-al was intended.)

chomp
11-30-2005, 15:44
But the way he has acted, out of dignity and self control,...


Well, I was going to stay out of this until Wook claimed that Warren acted with dignity and self control. He may go on the kind of frontal assault that Jack does, but Warren acts in the same manner. He will say very controversial things in a very subtle manner, so as to stir those who disagree with him without offending others. He is a master at passive-aggressive attacks.

Mentioning "movie stealth" is a perfect example of this. Also, Wookie, do you think he was acting with dignity when he said "At least at ALDHA, we don't have drunk people getting killed by trains."? What kind of person would be so callous in public about an issue like that?

So, say whatever you want about Jack's style of posting. But don't give us this "Warren has done nothing wrong" mantra.

Tha Wookie
11-30-2005, 16:13
Hey wolf, pass the whine!

Footslogger
11-30-2005, 16:23
Hey wolf, pass the whine!
===============================
I'll pass on the whine myself ...

'Slogger

Jack Tarlin
11-30-2005, 17:22
Will happily leave this silly thread as I have around fifty weekend guests to get ready for, but one comment of Wookie's deserves a response:

Wookie refers to another individual as "the most accomplished AT hiker on this site."

It is my contention that there is no one individual on this site.....or anywhere else, for that matter.....that deserves that singular sobriquet.

Everyone here at Whiteblaze is accomplished in different ways and for different reasons. There are over seven thousand members here, all with different life experiences and all with something to potentially contribute here.

I personally do not think there is any such thing as "the most accomplished AT hiker" on this site, and I think that anyone that thinks of themselves in this manner, or who idolizes anyone else in this regard is mistaken.

We're all equals here: We speak as equals, contribute as equals, and should be treated as equals, with no special rights, privileges, or special sections of the website to be viewed as private personal lecture halls.

And this is mainly what I've been attempting to say, apparently with little success. As long as Wookie and others seem to think that some contributers here are more equal than others, and are entitled to special treatment, then there really isn't anything I can say to convince them otherwise.

And lastly, as has been pointed out several times, if Wook and others truly feel the need to receive education from this "most accomplished hiker," there's a simple expedient: They can visit his own website, or they can take advantage of the offers he's repeatedly presented that give folks the chance to pay cash money to hear about his "accomplishments". That should make everyone happy: Those that desire to be educated at this source can do so; those that wish to sell their knowledge and accomplishments will be equally satisfied.

smokymtnsteve
11-30-2005, 17:44
some hikers is more equal than other hikers

Tin Man
11-30-2005, 18:04
As long as Wookie and others seem to think that some contributers here are more equal than others, and are entitled to special treatment, then there really isn't anything I can say to convince them otherwise.

Jack, with all respect, aren't you singling out WD as more equal than others by highlighting his behavior on WB? :confused:

The Old Fhart
11-30-2005, 18:04
SMS-"some hikers is more equal than other hikers" Only in your smoke-induced haze.

smokymtnsteve
11-30-2005, 18:09
Only in your smoke-induced haze.

well I do live on a ANIMAL FARM in AK! ;)

rickb
11-30-2005, 18:09
Warren's book is free. It can be downloaded at his site: www.warrendoyle.com

The mechanics of hiking the AT are simple.

The Old Fhart
11-30-2005, 18:13
Tin Man-"Jack, with all respect, aren't you singling out WD as more equal than others by highlighting his behavior on WB?" Tin Man, with all respect, WD and his chorus are singling out WD as more equal than others by highlighting his behavior on WB, Jack is repudiating both the behavior and the deifying.

Tin Man
11-30-2005, 18:37
Tin Man, with all respect, WD and his chorus are singling out WD as more equal than others by highlighting his behavior on WB, Jack is repudiating both the behavior and the deifying.

Jack was first to respond to WD's orginal post...with all respect.

Tin Man
11-30-2005, 18:39
Warren's book is free. It can be downloaded at his site: www.warrendoyle.com

The mechanics of hiking the AT are simple.

Left foot, right foot, repeat. Correct?

rickb
11-30-2005, 18:44
Yup.

And if you can flow, all the better.

MOWGLI
11-30-2005, 18:49
Tin Man, with all respect, WD and his chorus are singling out WD as more equal than others by highlighting his behavior on WB, Jack is repudiating both the behavior and the deifying.

Its amazing that folks can talk and talk and talk (or type and type and type) and still not understand one another. I have seen no one here treat Warren as a deity. Personally, I am unimpressed by long distance hikers like Jack & Warren. After all, long distance hiking is primarily a selfish activity.

You know what impresses me? Volunteers. Like Weary and SGT Rock and Happy Feet and Bob Peoples and lots of others both here on Whiteblaze and out on the trails and in the organizational meetings all across the country.

You know, there is perception and reality. I've actually spent considerably more time around Jack than I have Warren.

I have met Warren exactly once - for perhaps 5 minutes at Trail days in '04. We also corresponded a few times - once to disagree about whether the AT is overused in some areas. He said no - I said yes.

I have met Jack 3 times - twice at Trail Days for about 2 minutes each time, and once at Miss Janet's Hiker Summit in Erwin in '04. We chatted briefly and sat near one another for a couple of hours.

Yet, some folks probably think I am a big fan of Warrens, and that I don't like Jack. WRONG - on both counts.

As I've said REPEATEDLY, I don't condone Warren's behavior, but neither do I condone the bullying that is directed at him. I also have a hard time with hypocrisy - and usually call it when I see it.

I hope that clears up any misconceptions - for the last time.

Tha Wookie
11-30-2005, 18:50
Will happily leave this silly thread as I have around fifty weekend guests to get ready for, but one comment of Wookie's deserves a response:

Wookie refers to another individual as "the most accomplished AT hiker on this site."

It is my contention that there is no one individual on this site.....or anywhere else, for that matter.....that deserves that singular sobriquet.

Everyone here at Whiteblaze is accomplished in different ways and for different reasons. There are over seven thousand members here, all with different life experiences and all with something to potentially contribute here.

I personally do not think there is any such thing as "the most accomplished AT hiker" on this site, and I think that anyone that thinks of themselves in this manner, or who idolizes anyone else in this regard is mistaken.

We're all equals here: We speak as equals, contribute as equals, and should be treated as equals, with no special rights, privileges, or special sections of the website to be viewed as private personal lecture halls.

And this is mainly what I've been attempting to say, apparently with little success. As long as Wookie and others seem to think that some contributers here are more equal than others, and are entitled to special treatment, then there really isn't anything I can say to convince them otherwise.

And lastly, as has been pointed out several times, if Wook and others truly feel the need to receive education from this "most accomplished hiker," there's a simple expedient: They can visit his own website, or they can take advantage of the offers he's repeatedly presented that give folks the chance to pay cash money to hear about his "accomplishments". That should make everyone happy: Those that desire to be educated at this source can do so; those that wish to sell their knowledge and accomplishments will be equally satisfied.

Yeah Jack keep telling yourself that.

thanks for Jacks rules numbers 13 and 14.

Thanks for letting me post here Jack. I'll try to obey you more in the future.

rickb
11-30-2005, 19:04
Warren's 30,000 miles on the AT over four decades don't make him a diety, but they do mean that he is intertwined with the history of long distance hiking on our Trail.

People interested in the AT will be talking about Warren 50 years from now.

The Old Fhart
11-30-2005, 19:24
Rickboudrie-"People interested in the AT will be talking about Warren 50 years from now." I can certainly believe you will. :D

weary
11-30-2005, 19:51
....I personally do not think there is any such thing as "the most accomplished AT hiker" on this site, and I think that anyone that thinks of themselves in this manner, or who idolizes anyone else in this regard is mistaken. ......
Well some have hiked more miles than others. Quite a few are capable of walking more miles than I can. That doesn't mean I idolize anyone. But I do rank contributors in my mind. I think more highly of those who manage to impart information and opinions, without resorting to personal invective.

I chuckle a bit at the pompous and those who can't control their anger, and at those who find it necessary to toss insults when others disagree with them.

And I am saddened when a few manage to shut down an interesting thread by their obnoxiousness.

Weary www.matlt.org

Lugnut
11-30-2005, 19:53
And this is mainly what I've been attempting to say, apparently with little success. .

How about with no success. You could be right on every point, but I seriously doubt that you have convinced even one person that your opinion on this matter counts for anything. In fact, I would venture to guess that your own well deserved reputation has suffered as a result of your rantings.
What a waste of energy. :confused:

Jack Tarlin
11-30-2005, 20:02
Rick B. :

Thanks for pointing out to us Warren's "book."

On your advice, I checked it out, and re-read it.

Of course this didn't take a lot of time, as this "book" is perhaps three pages long.

Here are some interesting quotes from this sage tome that Rick recommends:

* "Leave your cultural "level of comfort" at home. Reduce your material
wants...."

* "The more I know, the less I need....."

* "One does not a need a roof and four walls around them at night...."

* "People who take shortcuts, or hitchhike, do so because it is usually
shorter, quicker, and/or easier. So where is the challenge in that? We
have enough shortcuts in the real world."

Of course, these words of wisdom would ring a little truer if not for the fact that Doyle has himself admitted that the majority of the 30,000 miles that Rick is so impressed with were achieved with car support, i.e., while not burdened with the unpleasant load of an actual backpack. In truth, most of his trail mileage was achieved as a day-hiker or slackpacer, and not as a long-distance backpacker.

To quote an "accomplished" A.T. hiker, "Where is the challenge in that?", eh

Advising folks to leave their cultural levels of comfort at home while relying for decades on a support vehicle and driver seems to conflict a bit, no? And to say that one need's less as one learns more is perhaps true, as long as needing a van to haul your stuff around doesn't count.

I agree that one sure doesn't ned a roof and four walls, but four wheels is evidently another matter. For some folks, it seems to come in mighty handy.

Sorry, Rick, but Warren's "book" leaves a little to be desired.

Yet you crow to us that it's "free".

And with good reason......if this is the sort of advice he has to share, who in their right mind would pay for it?

Nightwalker
11-30-2005, 20:19
some hikers is more equal than other hikers
And we ain't them, eh?

:D

Skeemer
11-30-2005, 20:27
BJ mounts a comeback:
Of course, these words of wisdom would ring a little truer if not for the fact that Doyle has himself admitted that the majority of the 30,000 miles that Rick is so impressed with were achieved with car support, i.e., while not burdened with the unpleasant load of an actual backpack. In truth, most of his trail mileage was achieved as a day-hiker or slackpacer, and not as a long-distance backpacker.:p !!!!!!!!!!

rickb
11-30-2005, 20:37
Jack,

You are a gifted writer. Where you could improve is with your listening skills. When you do that, you will take things to much better place. You can do it, Jack.

But let's move forward. Were I to really "recommend" and "crow", it would be about the best advise that I think a thru hiker could read (I know, you just chose those verbs for fun), and I would direct them here:

http://www.spiriteaglehome.com/THP%20top.html

I have done so in the past, and will continue to do so in the future. Interestingly, some of Warren's points have a parallel in "The Thru Hiking Papers". Its great stuff.

You see Jack, its not the mechanics and itineraries that are most important to a prospective hikers success. Its something much more elemental. Warren gets that. Do you?

But getting back to Warren's Book. You neglected to read the part where he suggests that the very best way to prepare is to meet with a fellow thru hiker of a similar age and circumstance as oneself. He also suggested that one can glean good information and understanding from Trailjournals.com. I would have thought you might agree. Then again, perhaps you did.

But that's just a detail. The real message is that hiking the trail is simple, but whats in your head (and heart) really matters.

Right?

Rick B

Jack Tarlin
11-30-2005, 20:46
Rick:

I have recommended Jim Owen's excellent "Thru-Hiking Papers" many times, and will continue to do so. This is a superb work.

I also think some of the journals at Trailforums are quite good.

As to Warren's alleged "book," no, you're wrong. I didn't neglect to read any of it. I read it all; after all, I had the leisure of three minutes of spare time to do so.

And in fact, some of the things Warren said (such as the ones you just cited) I actually agree with.

I think talking to former thru-hikers, or reading the journals of former thru-hikers that resemble one's self is probably a good thing to do.

But I think that telling folks to reduce the level of their cultural comforts, and telling folks to eschew shortcuts, when one is loathe to say that most of one's A.T. travels were achieved with an automobile, is a bit silly.

So, yeah, Rick, there are a few things in Warren's "book" that I agree with.

Still doesn't mean I think it's worth paying for.

The Old Fhart
11-30-2005, 20:49
Weary-"I chuckle a bit at the pompous " Shush- WD might hear you chuckling at him... :D

rickb
11-30-2005, 20:53
Still doesn't mean I think it's worth paying for.

Its free!

By the way, so are most of the services of the ALDHA. Or virtually free, anyway.

You might want to consider Warren's contributions in light of that fact. Even if it proves inconvenient to you at times.

Now, don't you have some NH crayfish to de-vein or something?

weary
11-30-2005, 21:19
Shush- WD might hear you chuckling at him... :D
Well, I do chuckle at Warren Doyle from time to time. But I don't detect pomposity, but rather a sort of a modern version of the wisdom of a Henry Thoreau, who was a master of subtle irony and humor.

Of course, as someone has mentioned in this debate, it is this subtle, above-the-debate humor that so infuriates some on White Blaze, though I sometimes suspect they don't really appreciate the reason for their hatred.

A-Train
11-30-2005, 22:24
The way I see it, no one is being forced to join Warren┤s Institute, and he┤s not selling his ĘbookĘ. Its up to the individual to decide for themselves whether they wanna shell out the loot to hear his advice, which admittedly most folks could find on the internet in a few hours and get more diverse opinions. The fact is, I think a lot of us wish we could make money off of our knowledge of the AT, but not everyone does so. Warren has spent a gross amount of time on the AT in his life, and surrounded by it, and part of me wishes I could say the same, and I┤m sure some of you could agree. I mean honestly if you could make a living off the AT (you really can┤t) wouldn┤t most of you do so honestly?

I met his troop this summer, and his group obviously happily agreed to shell out the cash. If there is an audience for this type of hike, what wrong is he doing by providing a service? I DON┤T necessesarily agree with a lot of what Warren preaches and does, but he is entitled to run a business. I see why others disagree, but hes allowed to do so, supposing he has the proper permits.

As far as how much he slack packs, it doesn┤t mean much to me. People can decide for themselves whether he is a worthy leader or not before shelling out the cash. I am not awed by his thousands of miles, or anyone elses for that matter, for as Mowgli says, its a somewhat selfish. Not so much selfish, but a choice. Some folks choose to have kids and put them thru college rather than to have multiple thru hikers and that in itself is admirable.

Thats a lot of mubble jumble, but thought I would add my 2 cents. Honestly, don┤t you guys have more important things to move on to? The same tired arguements have been recycled here for the 3 years I┤ve been on WB. The community is capable of more than this thread

MOWGLI
11-30-2005, 22:25
And with good reason......if this is the sort of advice he has to share, who in their right mind would pay for it?

Last I checked, no one, and I mean no one gives more presentations at Trail Days every year than Warren. Truth be told, it kinda irritated me how many presentations he was giving in '04, 'cause it limited my options as a presenter.

I will note however, that all of Warren's talks were free, as were the ones he previously gave at the ALDHA Gatherings. I can't speak to the quality of these programs, 'cause I didn't attend any of 'em.

Warren did help me arrange my program at the '04 Gathering, and for that I thank him.

Tin Man
11-30-2005, 22:46
The way I see it, no one is being forced to join Warren┤s Institute, and he┤s not selling his ĘbookĘ. Its up to the individual to decide for themselves whether they wanna shell out the loot to hear his advice, which admittedly most folks could find on the internet in a few hours and get more diverse opinions.

Yes, people can find info on the Internet, but I suspect that WD students are looking to jump start their experience level with some hands on time with someone with lots of experience. I know us intellectuals :rolleyes: wouldn't benefit, but I can see where newbies would.

Anyway, live and let post.

warren doyle
12-01-2005, 00:16
I am either frequently inspired or amused at the posts I read.
I am inspired by those with wisdom, compassion and understanding.
I am amused by those with mean-spirited rationalizations and combative/aggressive/envious interpretations.
And I know whose side I'm on.
Happy trails to all (even those who find it hard to be happy with themselves)!

MedicineMan
12-01-2005, 03:26
because I read this entire thread! give me some noteriety for that eh!
and i got to sit by Lone Wolf at Miss Janets, that gotta count for something :)

here is a suggestion.
maybe a forum for vendors/service people.

After reading the whole thing to a simple man like myself it boiled down to:
did WD advertise on WB?
if so did he ask Sgt. Rock and Attroll permission?

So a vender/service forum for ads like the one WD posted, what do you think?

Two Speed
12-01-2005, 07:15
I've been watching this three ring circus, the previous one and a few others, and despite being less than comfortable with some of the facts I've gathered about Warren Doyle, I have to admit that I'm impressed that he has the guts to post his real name and address.

Burn
12-01-2005, 07:19
I've been watching this three ring circus, the previous one and a few others, and despite being less than comfortable with some of the facts I've gathered about Warren Doyle, I have to admit that I'm impressed that he has the guts to post his real name and address.

you guys are killing me!!!

oh, hey jack, i didn't pay for yer resupply list, maybe more than 3 pages, but it did offer some sage advice...wingfoot charged me 15.95 for info that is basically on any road map, geez. so some folks are philisophic about hiking realities, i'm guessing they got past hog pen gap on foot any ways.

justusryans
12-01-2005, 07:25
Right or wrong I have respect for any man who doesn't dodge grief.

SGT Rock
12-01-2005, 08:18
because I read this entire thread! give me some noteriety for that eh!
and i got to sit by Lone Wolf at Miss Janets, that gotta count for something :)

here is a suggestion.
maybe a forum for vendors/service people.

After reading the whole thing to a simple man like myself it boiled down to:
did WD advertise on WB?
if so did he ask Sgt. Rock and Attroll permission?

So a vender/service forum for ads like the one WD posted, what do you think?
We have never had a problem with a service provider posting here about their services if it is trail related. Hostels post here, some gear makers post here, and even service providers like the ones that were charging to support a thru-hike were posting here. Warren's class sort of reminds me of the last one: something that is trail related that some folks want and others don't. I couldn't imagine paying $10,000 for someone to be my support team on a hike, and I also couldn't imagine paying Warren to teach me how to backpack on the AT. But that said, they are still providing a service that others want and helps people complete hikes on the AT.

Add to that, Warren isn't just here on WhiteBlaze only posting about his service. If you check his posting history, he has offered advice to others hikers, just that lately there was one thread that was not in the manner that is normal for the majorityof WhiteBlazers.

So, based on the fact he isn't just spamming the board but an active participant, and the fact his service supports AT hikers, our general opinion (ATTroll and I) is he is free to post about or mention in other posts his classes if he wants. He is also urged to share his knowledge on the board with other hikers. :welcome

Anyone interested in using his service will get a better idea whether it is valuable based on his input and interaction with others and maybe even from some "graduates" (if that is the correct term) of his classes if they also participate and give their feedback of the class. I met one of his students on the trail this year (not a Circle member) who was positive about the experience but also did not seem to be a mind numbed zombie following the teachings of Warren or anything like that. She had some things she mentioned that she thought was odd about his teachings - but I find that about my professors too (my algebra professor needs fired).

I guess what I am saying in the last paragraph is anyone about to pay for anything has to be carefull that they are getting what they want anyway. If people want to pay Warren for his services, it isn't any different than people paying Mrs Janet for a shuttle when they could possibly hitch for free. In the shuttle case at least they know who they are getting and what she provides in advance. In Warren's case, you may not agree with everything he teaches you, and we all have our own backpacking style, but you also know there may be some value added. I doubt anyone that goes to his school is going to sneak into a movie theater because Warren said so, or eat leftovers in a resturaunt because Warren said so, or jump fences, or ford a river, or do whatever it is that they won't feel comfortable with when it is their time to make the decison.

Hopefully y'all don't decide I am on some side based on this. Anyway, have a good day y'all. I am hitting the road on another mission today. Hopefully I find out if I am going back to Iraq again or not this week.:sun

One Leg
12-01-2005, 08:34
Hopefully I find out if I am going back to Iraq again or not this week

Personally, I hope you don't have to go. I hear their trail systems really suck.... All underground....

Love ya, bro..

P.S. Great post, Rock....

Happy December 1st everyone... 24 more days 'til the bearded one comes..

Lone Wolf
12-01-2005, 08:36
Hope you stay stateside, Top. You did your tour but if duty calls you'll do it. Thanks for your service.

Tha Wookie
12-01-2005, 09:51
Well put, Rock.

If you go over there, watch out for my little bro:



Sgt. Matthews, Phillip D
MSSG 22-Det.C (Ammo)
Unit 75157


Thanks for your service at home and abroad!

SKCM
12-01-2005, 19:53
Can't we all just get along? for both sides, my grandmother had a saying...
" just because there is an elephant in the middle of the room you don't have to point it out.... everyone knows it is there" ... HYOH and try to leave the trail in better condition than you found it...

Nean
12-01-2005, 20:17
YaKnow.. RJ could start a thread selling his crapolla and it wouldn't bother me. Warren can start a thread just like any WB member and contribute anyhow, anyway he pleases. [...while God Bless America plays softly in the background ...] Its all about the marketing Jack. I know its hard, but you have to let people figure out some stuff themselves and trust that most will. As is, I'm about to sign up for ATI myself, if for no other reason than so Warren can afford a movie. BTW, I hear they have all the free popcorn gorp you can scrape up at those big city movie houses, just be careful of those chewy candies w/ the salty centers.:eek:

MOWGLI
12-01-2005, 21:10
As is, I'm about to sign up for ATI myself, if for no other reason than so Warren can afford a movie.

Thanks Nean. That's one of the funniest things I've read here in a long while.

Tin Man
12-01-2005, 21:10
What strikes me as odd about the objections to Mr. Doyle posting his ATI service here is that anyone reading his post has, more than likely, already been exposed to the wealth of information that is freely available all over this site. So what do we care if people are exposed to advertising for a fee service when they can plainly see all the free advice on the site? As I suggested before, I think people interested in Mr. Doyle's service are interested in the hands on experience that cannot be obtained from reading free, often contradictory, advice. Let it go.

Wonder
12-24-2005, 01:10
OK, so I've only been on white blaze a few days....but have learned a lot....ever hear the phrase" Flinging poo!" We are all here for our own reasons, and agendas. Some of us to get information, Some of us for friend and partnerships. Some of us to instigate petty "soap operas" to take up time that could better be used on the trail!!!! I am here because Warren Doyle told me of the wealth of knowledge I could find on here. Frankly, I'm amazed after the amount of crap that he has caught on here. I have recently competed the last session of the Appalachian Trail Institute, and found it to be an amazing experience! I learned so much, and I feel like I can Have a successful experience because of it! NO matter HOW Warren has finished the trail so many times, backpacking or other wise, he has done it! An amazing feat! I feel that in a community such as our own...hikers, strong people of the wilderness..there would be much less pettiness then here in the real world! The name calling and personal attacks! Shameful! I agree that we are all allowed our own opinions, but for real people! I respect the man!

I am a hiker who is 25, female, and has a disability.........but I am open to what is real. GO ahead...call me one of Warrens "elitists" I'm proud of it! WHEN I FINISH The trail in October 2006...I will grant a lot of my success to what I learned from Warren.
Does what I say upset you........good! Use it on a hike.....go ahead...out hike me! GO a head and boast about it if it makes you feel better! Get over The pettiness and remember why we are here. This is a community. Stop worrying so much about this pissing contest that seems to be The main context of this B***S*** bickering, and start making YOURSELF a better hiker. I make no claims to being an accomplished hiker, but every step I take brings me closer to Personal satisfaction and greatness. What is more important? Looking good to others.....or being able to look at yourself in The mirror. Personally, I'd take The later.......on step at a time.

RedneckRye
12-24-2005, 01:41
Wow, the "pissing contest" had kinda died out. Maybe everyone was in the warm, festive holiday spirit. Should we all be glad someone started it back up? Probably not. Please, let sleeping dogs lie.

The Desperado
12-24-2005, 02:31
Wow, the "pissing contest" had kinda died out. Maybe everyone was in the warm, festive holiday spirit. Should we all be glad someone started it back up? Probably not. Please, let sleeping dogs lie..................Amen to that!!!!!!:rolleyes:

TJ aka Teej
12-24-2005, 10:07
The name calling and personal attacks! Shameful!

Welcome, trailgirl. Warren would call you an "Internegator" for posting in that manner. He likes to attack people and call them names, for which he's mostly ignored by the overwhelming majority of WhiteBlaze members. I see you are from Pennsylvania. The annual PA RUCK is coming up soon, and I encourage you to attend. You will meet many dozens of friendly and welcoming hikers, young and old, thrus and sections, planners and dreamers and do-ers, maintainers and service providers, weekenders and multiyear/multitrail hikers too. You quite probably will not hear WD's name mentioned at all, which will reveal to you how little he matters to most people involved in long distance backpacking and the Appalachian Trail.
Just one more thing: When you hike the AT in '06, please keep in mind ALDHA's Endangerd Services campaign, please be respectful of the property of others, and please understand that your personal actions as a Trail user will impact the Trail experience of future hikers.
Again, welcome to WhiteBlaze.
Edit: to include PARUCK url
http://www.artofthetrail.com/paruck.html

warren doyle
12-24-2005, 12:07
It is disappointing isn't it trailgirl80? It is unfortunate that even though there is just a few hyper-negative posters on Whiteblaze, their venom is so poisonous. They sort of taint the potential of this website for newbies. Don't be discouraged though, their hyberbolic criticism is not reflective of what you will encounter on the actual trail.
Thanks for attending the ATI with the other eight folks. I enjoyed sharing with you all in a face-to-face manner - still the best communication of all.
Happy trails!

Lone Wolf
12-24-2005, 12:21
TJ aka Teej is so full of hatred and jealousy. Must suck being him.:cool:

ferryman
12-24-2005, 21:30
Tis the season...to get ready for the adventure of a lifetime in your upcoming hike, be it self-contained, sectional, northbound, southbound or slacked to you know where and back. Whatever fits in your pack! Now you have the chance to hike the Appalachian Trail with a pack on your back and never look back. You will only get out of the AT experience what you, as an individual, put into it! There is a certain gleam in every hiker's eye who carries their pack the whole way and it is expressed enthusiatically when a hiker looks up and says, " I carried that pack the whole way." Fossil fuels should remain in smog infested cities and the mountains of the Appalachian Trail should forever carry the creed of a way of life void from emissions of carbon dioxide. Oh yeah, 2006 will be my 25th year of being an overly "responsible" Outfitter in the State of Maine and I am looking for Registered Maine Guides (will train) with at least WFR (wilderness first responder), CPR and a willingness to faithfully uphold the obligations of loyalty to AT hikers who safely "plan" a ferry ride across the Kennbec River. The most dangerous part of the ferry service is protecting those who disregard the potential for risk in fording the Kennebec River. "FPL Group Inc.'s purchase of Constellation Energy Group Inc. in an $11 billion stock deal announced Monday (12-19-05) creates one of the nation's biggest energy companies and gives Constellation additional power to sell through its growing energy trading business." FPL owns two hydro dams upriver and one downriver of the Appalachian Trail Crossing. Steve the ferryman (19th year)

Smooth
12-24-2005, 23:13
Many years ago I actually met Warren. Before we met all I ever heard was nasty commets aout him. I thank god that he did not introduce himself until we were parting. I found Warren to be a good man doing what most of us only dream of doing, he is making a living from the trail. Who out there would not want to make thier living from the thing they love the most? What better work than to work in your field of love? Are you Jelious? Thank you, Warren, for touching my life, you are part of my A.T. experance.

Smooth of '95

weary
12-25-2005, 16:52
Most humans do or dream of doing "foolish" and "unwise" things -- this list more than most. The world mostly thinks all thru hikers are nuts. "What, you're going to Georgia to hike back to Maine, starting in the snow? I was asked, again and again, in one form or another.

Logically, the questioners were right about me, 64-years-old, never an athlete, after 40 years in a desk job, punctuated by occasional "weekend warrior" hikes. But I got to Maine, even to the summit of Katahdin, though I didn't escape snow at both ends of the walk.

I saw enough of the trail to recognize that however one gets between Amicalola State Park and Baxter State Park you have had great fun, and great difficulties, some perhaps, more than others, but there is no escaping the steep hills, bugs, rain, summer heat, sore knees, blisters....not even the temptation to slackpack, maybe even to argue with authorities from time to time.

Anyway, on this Christmas Day, it seems appropriate to suggest again that "ye who are without sin, cast the first stone."

Weary

warren doyle
01-17-2006, 21:15
There will be three ATI sessions in 2006:

Feb.3-6 (F-M) - Last session for AT Class of 2006.

May 15-18 (M-R) - This session will dovetail into Damascus Trail Days.

Dec. 15-18 (F-M)

More info on the ATI can be found on my website below.

Happy trails!

Rain Man
01-17-2006, 23:19
There will be three ATI sessions in 2006:

Warren, would you please also give the prices for each session? Thanks!

Rain:sunMan

.

Jack Tarlin
01-17-2006, 23:26
According to his website, it costs $300.00.

warren doyle
01-18-2006, 10:15
Mr. Tarlin's response is correct.
More info about the ATI can be found on my website below.
Happy trails!

Rain Man
01-19-2006, 00:42
Mr. Tarlin's response is correct.
More info about the ATI can be found on my website below.
Happy trails!

Thanks! Price is as fundamental as dates, so I just wondered.

Again, thanks and best to you and your hikers.

Rain:sunMan

.

Wonder
01-19-2006, 16:01
It's worth it people. THe ATI was an amazing help in my hike prep, and I got to meet some really great people. Just wanted to put it out there........

Almost There
01-19-2006, 16:26
No offense trailgirl, but why pay for something that I can learn on my own!!! I bear no hatred for Warren, just disagree with some things, but living so close to the AT, there is no reason to pay for what I need to learn about myself. BTW if you had been around last fall for the great Warren Doyle WAR, you would know that it isn't the best of idea to suggest people pay for Warren's seminar here on Whiteblaze. Most of us have a different hiking philosophy than Warren, but to each his own.

I do give him credit for being able to earn a living doing what he loves, and accomplishing what he has on and off the trail, I just disagree from a philosophical standpoint on much he espouses.

Alligator
01-19-2006, 16:37
...BTW if you had been around last fall for the great Warren Doyle WAR, you would know that it isn't the best of idea to suggest people pay for Warren's seminar here on Whiteblaze. Most of us have a different hiking philosophy than Warren, but to each his own.
...
Any past participants in either the ATI or Circle Expeditions are most certainly welcome to post here and are encouraged to do so. A clearer understanding of these endeavors may emerge from these alternative viewpoints.

Almost There
01-19-2006, 17:25
Alligator before you chomp on me...you should recognize sarcasm. If you remember the two sides squared up and it went on for well over 1000 posts, most of which was one side attacking the other. I am merely saying that if you start up be prepared to be slapped down by someone of a diametrically opposed opinion. Personally, I don't care if you want to go ahead and spend your hard earned money any way you see fit then feel free to do so. I have never said that those endeavors were not accomplishments, just different than what most of us do, you must admit having car support, etc., is different from the traditional backpacking. All things said however, hiking 2000 miles+ is still hiking 2000 miles+, it's just not backpacking, both are impressive in their own right, but they are different...factually speaking. See, I can disagree without attacking Mr. Doyle!!! Who actually has been nothing but polite to me in our interactions.

Alligator
01-19-2006, 17:42
Sarcasm :confused: .






I'm sure Warren has warned her of the perils of the information superhighway and the possibility that internegators may be skulking about. I was just encouraging her to bring reinforcements.

Almost There
01-19-2006, 18:11
That's it my children....DRINK THE KOOL-AID!!!!

Mags
01-19-2006, 18:20
Any past participants in either the ATI or Circle Expeditions are most certainly welcome to post here and are encouraged to do so. A clearer understanding of these endeavors may emerge from these alternative viewpoints.

A friend of mine here in Boulder was on one the Circle Expeditions back in the early 80s.

He spoke very positively of his experience. He readily admits it is not for everyone, but nethier is thru-hiking.

Said it gave him he confidence to tackle the CDT with some friends a few years later. This was back in the 80s when the CDT was even less well marked than it is now.

Personally? I wouldn't do the circle expedition..but that is just me. I tend to be a soloist hiker.

For someone with a different personality type, an organized expedition may be something that appeals to them.

warren doyle
01-20-2006, 11:38
I need to jump in and correct some misperceptions that Almost There has included in his recent posts.

#168 "Drink the Kool-Aid!!!" I don't take that as sarcasm. I consider that statement as a couple of steps toward your achieving 'internegator' status.

#166 I started backpacking before you were even born; whether it was the Appalachian Trail, Long Trail, Pennine Way, Wonderland Trail, parts of the Allegheny Trail, the Range Trail, the John Muir Trail, the Grand Tetons circuit and some sections of the PCT. I know how to backpack and to day hike. I enjoy both. When circumstances dictate that I backpack, that's what I do. When circumstances dictate that I can day hike, that's what I do.
Also, the Appalachian Trail Circle Expedition, done once every five years, is a seperate entity from the Appalachian Trail Institute (ATI). The ATI has been held from 1-3 times a year to help regular backpackers to plan their thru-hikes, and to increase their chances of completing what they set out to do.

#164 You know very little of my hiking philosophy - only the bits and pieces you have been exposed to on this sometimes mean-spirited and hypercritical website. I can only say there has been, and will be, a small percentage of potential, current and former thru-hikers that not only know my hiking philosophy, but understand it and are supportive. It's okay with me that I am way off the normal bell curve on some things. I'm not out to change the world. I'm only here to offer another learning option to people to exercise their freedom of choice.

A "Warren Doyle WAR"? I disagree with your interpretation. Usually a war has two combatants fighting against each other in order to win something. Most objective readers would analyze and then describe the WB record-breaking thread of Fall 2005 as 'BULLYING' rather than a 'WAR' - with the internegators as the hypercritics vs. Warren Peace as the passive receiver.

One last misconception to clear up. I don't 'earn' my living as a hiker. I have 'earned' my living as a college faculty member for approximately 26 years in Elementray Education; Appalachian Studies; American Studies; and,
Parks and Recreation. I also have been the Director of an outdoor education center for 11 years and a Director of a folklife center for four years. I also have earned my living as a factory worker and a elementary school resident artist - Appalachian dance and poetry.

There are 365 days to a year most of the time. Sometimes I spend anywhere from 4-12 days a year getting 'paid' to share my hiking wisdom/experience with willing learners. It probably represent less than 1% of my annual income. Hardly a day goes by during the other 350-355 days of the year that I don't share my AT knowledge for free with people who e-mail, phone or meet with me. I also have shared this knowledge for free, and many times at my own expense, for 24 years at the Gathering and every year at Damascus Trail Days (except for the first year). I could go on but I can assure you that I do not 'earn' my living with the Appalachian Trail and I don't plan to. And, I definitely can say, that "I gave at the office."

So... there is some 'truth serum' to offset your 'Kool Aid' mentality. I feel that you would rather been perceived as 'Almost There' rather than 'Not Even Close'.

Happy trails!

Alligator
01-20-2006, 12:20
Warren, a very informative post. It does your image good to clear that up. It never appeared to me that you were making much money from your AT activities.

But you left out the word aggressive. It should have been Warren Peace as the passive-aggressive receiver. When you slip in commendations to your supporters for making posts that attack your internegators, it's hard to see you solely as a bullying victim. You just let other people do the dirty work for you to keep the illusion of clean hands on your part.

Almost There
01-20-2006, 12:57
First, I find it kinda of funny that you choose to come at me, after all of the attacks that have been sent your way, far worse than what I stated, as it wasn't an attack.

As to your responses, I will in turn respond as you have,

As to response #168: Your defenders have this habit of coming across at times almost as if they worship you, not your fault, but sorry they do. I was merely commenting on Alligator's statement that he was sure you had warned Trailgirl about the people on whiteblaze. Of course, I realize that you never see these people as almost verging on worship of you, your perception and mine are different on that point. BTW if they want to do so, they may, and if I choose to find it humorous, I can!

Your response to #166: Thanks for pointing out how wonderful you are, or the fact that you are older than me. I didn't know any of this.(sarcasm!) Warren I have stated in this and past threads that your accomplishments are significant and worthwhile. I was stating in regards to your circle group, that hiking and backpacking are different. I fully admit my mistake on your trail institute, I simply forgot to correct my statement...and for that I apologize. It is obvious that you have found a way to motivate people...and as a teacher and coach I admit that is a wonderful thing, due to the mental tenacity needed to complete a thru-hike. I am well aware that you have completed the AT and other trails without support, but your expedition does not, and you have admitted that in the past, so my statement is nothing new.

Response to #164: I will admit that as to specifics you are right on with my knowledge of you, however, as to your philosophies, sorry but trends tend to continue. We could get into your famous poem reading, or that fact that you view football as a bloodsport, or movie stealthing, or sneaking into park lands, etc. Personally, I couldn't care about what you do that affects only you, your business, but some of your statements does give insight into who you are. Let's see...you are a proud man, learned, who believes in your way of doing things, and you have decided after years of doing things that to your mind, you have come up with pretty close to a set of best practices for hiking. I merely encourage others to learn for themselves, but I come from the school that personal experiences and triumphs mean more, and are more self satisfying. Oops, but that comes from another one of my blood sports-wrestling, the real kind! I think I've got an understanding of you to a point...but you are correct, I could only really know you if I spent time with you, and that has not happened. BTW I understand your philosophy, but I disagree with it, and I think you insult many on WB when you say only a few hikers understand your philosophy, but I think you are correct to say only a few are supportive.

The Warren Doyle War was an over the top title, meant to grab attention, and it got yours! As to the comment that it was bullying...I seem to remember some pretty nasty attacks on Jack in regards to drinking, we all know Jack disagrees with you, that would put him on one side, and if someone on the other is attacking him than that is an attack from both sides...a WAR if you will! BTW there have been many wars fought where people have won nothing. Wars have been fought merely to destroy a populace, nothing gained, but certainly something lost. You don't want to go the history route with me, just as I wouldn't dare to begin to debate you in your area of expertise. I will admit you never once rose to the bait of your detractors, but there were others that did on your behalf. So while you were not involved in the war, it was centered around you, and the thread had your name in it. So using the name I did, merely would remind people of said thread, and anyone who had read it is well aware that you did take the high road throughout the thread, which btw I did state several times while posting in the thread.

Thanks for pointing out there are 360 days of the year, I was still working off of the Ancient Egyptian Lunar Calendar! Do you make money from activities surrounding the trail? If the answer is yes, then you do make part of your living from your experience as a hiker. I was complimenting you on this, it was not a dig, I personally think, great for you. I am well aware and in the thread of fame I did make mention of respecting the fact that you were a teacher, and your accomplishments in earning a Ph.D., etc. I don't know why you thought this was an attack, others have said similiar. I was merely saying I thought it was great. As for sharing freely, good for you, I would expect that from a leader in the trail community.

As for your "truth serum", much of which I already knew, the kool-aid was as I said more in response to your supporters than in response to you.

As to "Not Even Close", dude, come on, everything was true, just because I didn't go into your entire background...not the purpose, your being a teacher has nothing to do with your hiking philosophies, just as my being a football coach has nothing to do with how I walk down a trail. Other than your ATI please explain to me where I lied? I know you will probably come back to tell me I was wrong here or there, and as with the ATI if I feel I was in error than I will admit so, but "Not even Close"....please, see there are two views of people, the ones they hold of themselves, and the ones others hold of them. To think I was just saying to Wookie and weathercarrot this past weekend that you are probably a great guy in person. We all have our personalities in person and on the net....I don't stray too much, but hey, I know you can't be as arrogant as you just sounded in your rebuttal. See Warren I have talked with people who like you, and hate you, in person and on the computer. I am well aware of what went on with ALDHA, and the infamous GAthering where you exercised yoru freedom of choice instead of exercising tact. I still am wondering why you decided after all this time to come after me, but if you still feel the urge feel free, I'll still be around.:D

Lone Wolf
01-21-2006, 00:47
WOW! America. Warren is OK. The world will stay on course.

orangebug
01-21-2006, 11:01
Regarding the "WAR," I was impressed with Warren's strategy. I recall the strategy of B'rar Bear and B'rar Fox with the Tar Baby. Warren followed it perfectly. This was a similar strategy used by George Washington, Ho Chi Mihn and by today's Iraqi insurgents. Let the other guy defeat himself.

Do not confuse the idiot who attacked Jack Tarlin as Warren or his minions.

Warren offers an optional means of walking the AT. Any means of walking the AT is a minority position, except perhaps for us section hikers. Those who choose / need to spend money for this option are free to do so.

MOWGLI
01-21-2006, 11:05
Everybody does not learn the same way. Its all about comfort level. If someone wants to pay Warren $300 to attend his ATI, I have no problem with that. And frankly, I can't imagine why anyone else would.

weary
01-21-2006, 11:14
Everybody does not learn the same way. Its all about comfort level. If someone wants to pay Warren $300 to attend his ATI, I have no problem with that. And frankly, I can't imagine why anyone else would.
AMC offers numerous courses every year, ranging from how to lead trips, to mountain photography, alpine flowers, winter camping and snowshoeing. I've never taken any of them, but I don't doubt that most who do find them valuable. As, I suspect, so do those who attend Warren's classes.

Weary

Almost There
01-21-2006, 15:15
Guys, I never intended for it to get to this point, but if you look at my original post, I stated for "me" living so close to the AT I couldn't see the point of paying to learn what I could on my own. However, I did come out and say that I disagreed with Warren's philosophies. Alligator gave me the impression that only ATI or Expedition members were "free" to post here, and that is where the "Kool-Aid" comment came from. As we have discussed numerous times anyone on WB is welcome to post anywhere the desire, and are encouraged to do so. If people are going to read this thread and be encouraged to take Warren's class then why not have some alternative viewpoints in the thread as well. I'm sorry if Warren and Co. did not like what I have to say, but I did state that if someone did want to spend their hard earned money on the class, it was their right, I did not get rude or disrespectful....alright the Kool-Aid comment was going there, but it was an over the top response to Alligator's comment. Originally I was only going to post the first comment and then I decided to have some fun when I saw some comments meant for me. As for the Warren response...well, for his comments on me, it was well deserved. I most likely will not respond to any more comments unless directed at me, and even then most likely only if from Warren. And OB you're right, I never claimed Warren was stupid, on the contrary, I think he is very intelligent, and knows exactly what he is doing. To a degree,honestly, this is all so stupid, but sometimes we say something we believe, and then it becomes difficult to extricate yourself. So in an attempt to do so, I will as stated on respond to something specifically directed at me, otherwise, I promise to play nice....well mostly anyways!

Almost There
01-21-2006, 15:16
typo-I did not mean to say the comments I received from Warren we're well deserved, more the comments I made were well deserved.

Alligator
01-21-2006, 15:35
Almost There-You misread my post. You were suggesting care for folks posting in support of Warren's activities (#164) and I suggested that folks post as they please (#165). Nothing more. I see that you have clarified what you meant.

warren doyle
01-21-2006, 15:43
Not to get to 'passsive-aggressive' about this but...
orangebug (#174) and weary (#176) - thanks for renewing my hope that there are still signs of intelligence, respect, and/or sensitivity out there.
Maybe we can share some Kool-Aid (oops!) I mean spring water when we cross trails in the future.

MOWGLI16 - Perhaps people who attend the ATI realize that the cost of success is less than the cost of failure. That the reward of a fulfilled dream is greater than the punishment/pain of a deferred dream.
Until the completion rate of those traditionally prepared, or WB prepared, hikers approaches the 75% completion rate of the ATI graduates (and it has a long way to go from 20%), I will then reconsider the 'cost' to attend the ATI.
This concept is nothing new. The first universities were formed by 'traveling scholars' who voluntarily treked to European cities and voluntarily paid wise and experienced people to share their reliable and valid wisdom based on their actual experience.
If I wanted to know about Yosemite, I would have loved to have attended a seminar run by John Muir. Some other examples in like-minded vein:
college women basketball - Pat Summitt
non-violent civil disobedience - Gandhi, Thoreau, King
peace issues - Peace Pilgrim
how to evade Federal authorities in the southern Appalachians- Eric Rudolph
creative bookkeeping - Enron accountants
how to be a respectable, government backed terrorist - George Bush

oh no! my passive-aggressiveness is showing again..must stop....must..

Almost There
01-21-2006, 15:53
We're cool Alligator, posting is like emails, somtimes the words don't convey the intent! I am as guilty as anyone on this.

MOWGLI
01-21-2006, 15:54
Warren, perhaps you misunderstood my post. Perhaps it should have read;

"Everybody does not learn the same way. Its all about comfort level. If someone wants to pay Warren $300 to attend his ATI, I have no problem with that. And frankly, I can't imagine why anyone else would (have a problem with someone paying Warren $300 to attend the ATI.)"

Alligator
01-21-2006, 15:58
That's not passive-agressiveness Warren, it's just your big head thinking that what you do can in any way be compared with the activities of King and Gandhi.

Regarding civil rights, they spoke for FREE.

Nightwalker
01-21-2006, 16:08
oh no! my passive-aggressiveness is showing again..must stop....must..
Don't think ya can!

:D

Jack Tarlin
01-21-2006, 16:11
Actually it's "Summitt", not Summit. Glad to see you're so familiar with her.

And it's not a surprise see that you admire (even in jest) Eric Rudolph.

By please accept our sincere thanks for deciding to express your political views in a forum such as this, and not at places like the ALDHA Gathering.

Maybe you HAVE learned something since 2001.

Have a nice day.

Oh, and Gator, I very much enjoyed your last post!

Wonder
01-21-2006, 16:20
I had no intention of fueling this " war" with my comment supporting Warrens class. And my feelings towards the man are far from "worship" but of grounded respect. He has done something, many times, that I have yet to accomplish once. Did I spend my hard earned money?.....yes. I feel that what I got from the class was simply another piece of important equipment, mental equipment. After all, don't most people who drop out do so because they were ill prepared?
What Warren offered me, ( and I say me, because I cannot speak for my classmates) was trail learned knowledge from the practical equipment info, to how to deal with the loneliness inherent to a journey of such magnititude. I will not be using every technique that he taught.....and he doesnĺt expect us to. I will be using what I believe will work best for ME.
The best part for me was spending 4 days with other people, from all ages and backgrounds, who are going after the same thing. Sharing ideas, and thoughts. Isn't that what we are all trying to do here from the comfort of our homes?
As for the attacks, direct and indirect, to me. Get over it! I started visiting this website so that I could communicate my questions and thoughts for a learning purpose. Yes, everyone is entitled to their own views....but according to the quantity of mail in my personal inbox the day after I posted...people are scared to say anything! I don't blame them! Why open yourself up to personal attack just because you want to learn about something that may not be very popular.
We are all here, I hope, because we are all passionate about the Appalachian Trail. At one point in our lives, a dream was born, and we all need to (or have) accomplish it in our own way. DO NOT attack me or anyone else here for trying to learn all they can. I am very passionate about my hike, and went to the ATI because I have next to no practical backpacking experience. I could barely even walk until 2 years ago! I needed the knowledge. In my everyday life....I don't have the privilege of spending every weekend on the trail trying things out. I wish that I did, but someone has to pour the drinks every happy hour, and on Friday and Saturday night! My privilege is getting the trail to myself when everyone else is stuck in an office :-)
So let me end this comment in this way: If you would like to hear about my experience, talk to me about why I want to hike, have knowledge to pass my way, or just want to know someone who will be out there this year......contact me. I will no longer be held responsible for "Fueling a fire"
in this.....what ever it is.
PS Thanks to those who backed me up, it was unnecessary, but very much appreciated. I should have known what I would have started before I said anything. Whiskey tends to loosen my tongue a bit :-)

Jack Tarlin
01-21-2006, 16:55
Trail Girl:

I respect your opinion and wish you well on your trip!

But in regards to the whiskey, you should know that your hero doesn't approve of drinking! :)

Whereas some of us would be more than happy to toast you on your journey.

Good luck!

Heater
01-21-2006, 17:02
Trail Girl:

I respect your opinion and wish you well on your trip!

But in regards to the whiskey, you should know that your hero doesn't approve of drinking! :)

Whereas some of us would be more than happy to toast you on your journey.

Good luck!


It is not "allowed" on his hikes? You get kicked out of the "circle"?

Lone Wolf
01-21-2006, 17:07
Was good to see you at Dot's last night, Warren. I always enjoy our fireside chats.:)

Panzer1
01-21-2006, 17:07
The first universities were formed by 'traveling scholars' who voluntarily treked to European cities and voluntarily paid wise and experienced people to share their reliable and valid wisdom based on their actual experience.
....
how to evade Federal authorities in the southern Appalachians- Eric Rudolph


Are you implying here that Eric Rudolph was a "wise" person and has "valid Wisdom"? Didn't he plant a bomb at the 1996 Atlantic Olympics and kill a young police officer who had 2 small children with another bomb?

Panzer

Jack Tarlin
01-21-2006, 17:13
Good point, Panzer....I'm not sure Gandhi, King, or Thoreau would have cared much for Rudolph either, but everyone gets to pick their own heroes.

But too give WD the benefit of the doubt, let's assume he was merely making a poor joke.

weary
01-21-2006, 17:23
That's not passive-agressiveness Warren, it's just your big head thinking that what you do can in any way be compared with the activities of King and Gandhi. Regarding civil rights, they spoke for FREE.
Alligator. There was no hint of making a comparison. I too would love the chance to hear a lecture by any of the folks mentioned by Warren Doyle. It's their superior wisdom and insights that would attract wise people to such lectures.

Most of us who are not born independently wealthy have to earn a living, including Martin Luther King, who was paid by the church where he was a pastor and I'm sure by the civil rights groups he founded.

There's no free lunch in this world. People donated many hundreds of thousands of dollars and many thousands of hours of volunteer time to keep the civil rights movement alive and effective, and Martin Luther King employed. Likewise the trail is the product of many thousands of volunteer hours and volunteer dollars.

Weary www.matlt.org

Jack Tarlin
01-21-2006, 17:30
Weary:

I heartily applaud you last comment, and couldn't agree more.

It is truly wonderful to see the spirit of volunteerism at work. It's a beautiful thing!

For example, here at Whiteblaze, over 7000 people come to share their knowledge and experience freely to one and all.

Well, most of them do, at any rate. :)

weary
01-21-2006, 18:06
Weary:

I heartily applaud you last comment, and couldn't agree more.

It is truly wonderful to see the spirit of volunteerism at work. It's a beautiful thing!

For example, here at Whiteblaze, over 7000 people come to share their knowledge and experience freely to one and all.

Well, most of them do, at any rate. :)
I know Jack. Modesty makes you exclude yourself. But you shouldn't. You contribute a great deal.

Almost There
01-21-2006, 18:18
Trailgirl, I was not attacking you, and apologize if it appeared that way. I respect your decision to try and get more knowledge before your hike. My comment after the first post, which was more a less a friendly warning to be careful, was to a misunderstood quote from Alligator. I am glad you learned info you feel will help you on the trail, that's awesome! I am also glad that you are your own person, and haven't drank the Kool-Aid so to speak. I was merely saying in my own personal way that I learned instead by trial and error, and am happy with the results. That being said I was simply stating why pay for his class when there are plenty out there that will aid you with knowledge free of charge. I learned by visiting Winton at Mountain Crossings, by posting and getting hikers to hike with me, and then by observing them on the trail and asking questions. On top of this, I learned what worked for me by experimenting on the trail. It was probably more me being the first antagonist on this thread than anything that got it started, so I will dubiously accept blame for this, my wife will tell you with a smile that I can be a real "asshat"(thanks for the word Wolf) at times, but I'm pretty harmless...and believe me although I admire Gandhi and Dr. King, I am nowhere in their league of greatness, nor would I ever hint at such a thing!

Jack Tarlin
01-21-2006, 18:24
Weary--

We've had our differences here, and will no doubt continue to do so.

But I appreciate your last remark, and despite the tone of some of my posts towards you, I think you contribute a good deal also. We'll never agree on politics or on some of the Trail's personalities, but on many subjects (like anything regarding the great state of Maine), you're as knowledgable as anyone here.

I'm glad you're around.

After all, it'd get pretty boring around here if we did nothing but agree with each other all the time. :)

Panzer1
01-21-2006, 19:02
I too would love the chance to hear a lecture by any of the folks mentioned by Warren Doyle. It's their superior wisdom and insights that would attract wise people to such lectures.

Well then Weary, I would like to ask you the same question that I asked Waren, Do you think that Eric Rudolph was a "wise" person and has "superior Wisdom"? Is Rudolph one of the persons that you would like to hear speak?

Panzer

smokymtnsteve
01-21-2006, 19:22
maybe rudolph could teach LNT...he was certainly pretty good at that.

Panzer1
01-21-2006, 19:26
maybe rudolph could teach LNT...he was certainly pretty good at that.

We don't know that for sure, do we?

Panzer

smokymtnsteve
01-21-2006, 19:28
well it seems eric didn't leave many traces ,,,

the FBI couldn't locate him,,,

he must be a super sleath camper.

weary
01-21-2006, 19:34
Well then Weary, I would like to ask you the same question that I asked Waren, Do you think that Eric Rudolph was a "wise" person and has "superior Wisdom"? Is Rudolph one of the persons that you would like to hear speak. Panzer
Well, if I wanted to hide in the southern Appalachians to escape capture by the FBI, I suspect Eric Rudolph would have special knowledge that would be useful.

But otherwise I think he is a sad example of an extreme REligious Conservative, basically a nut case, like many of his ilk. I'm sorry for those he murdered, but I'm also sorry for him. I don't place a great deal of value in a handful of cells, which is all that exists in the first days of a pregnancy. But neither am I happy when an adult human throws away his life in a mistaken belief that killing others will protect those cells.

I hope he rots in prision. But I'll remain a bit saddened by what might have been, had he not killed as a result of his bigotry and ignorance.

WEary

Panzer1
01-21-2006, 19:41
He may have been staying with locals.

Panzer

Tha Wookie
01-21-2006, 20:02
maybe rudolph could teach LNT...he was certainly pretty good at that.

I was right next to a pretty big mess he left in Atlanta. Streamers everwhere. Strangest thing I've ever seen.

smokymtnsteve
01-21-2006, 20:06
I was right next to a pretty big mess he left in Atlanta. Streamers everwhere. Strangest thing I've ever seen.

then there was the "OTHERSIDE" that he also bombed...but folks don't like to talk about that.

I'm assuming ur talking about the olympic bombing wook,,,

Panzer1
01-21-2006, 20:15
then there was the "OTHERSIDE" that he also bombed...but folks don't like to talk about that.

I'm assuming ur talking about the olympic bombing wook,,,

What "OTHERSIDE" was that??

Panzer

smokymtnsteve
01-21-2006, 20:18
the OTHERSIDE was a nightclub in atlanta ga.

primarily lesbian ....the ARMY of G-d bombed it. Rudolf was a suspect

Jack Tarlin
01-21-2006, 20:20
The Otherside Lounge was a gay nightclub in Atlanta that Rudolph bombed;
several people were injured as a result.

smokymtnsteve
01-21-2006, 20:21
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_0027.htm

old link about the otherside

Panzer1
01-21-2006, 20:22
The "army of God" was a fictitious group created by Rudolph. He was the only member of the "army".

Panzer

Jack Tarlin
01-21-2006, 20:23
Note to Steve; Rudolph admitted to the Otherside bombing, we wasn't merely a suspect.

The guy Warren seems to admire was evidently a busy man, and an equal opportunity hater.

smokymtnsteve
01-21-2006, 20:23
The "army of God" was a fictitious group created by Rudolph. He was the only member of the "army".

Panzer

No..eric had/has many supporters in his army of G-d,

smokymtnsteve
01-21-2006, 20:26
Note to Steve; Rudolph admitted to the Otherside bombing, we wasn't merely a suspect.

The guy Warren seems to admire was evidently a busy man, and an equal opportunity hater.


ok I thought he had been convicted/confessed,,but wasn't totally sure of the legal status.

but I knew he had been a suspect,:D

smokymtnsteve
01-21-2006, 20:30
The "army of God" was a fictitious group created by Rudolph. He was the only member of the "army".

Panzer

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Army_of_God

http://www.witherspoonsociety.org/army_of_god.htm

Frosty
01-21-2006, 20:34
well it seems eric didn't leave many traces ,,,

the FBI couldn't locate him,,,

he must be a super sleath camper.Yeah, but he didn't try to camp above treeline in the Whites, now did he? AMC ridgerunners are better than the FBI.

Tha Wookie
01-21-2006, 20:34
Note to Steve; Rudolph admitted to the Otherside bombing, we wasn't merely a suspect.

The guy Warren seems to admire was evidently a busy man, and an equal opportunity hater.

Steve,

Yes, I was 100 feet from the Atl Olympic bomb when it exploded. I was staring straight at it, because my friend walked that direction "looking for chicks". We thought it was fireworks, until we saw people lying around us, bleeding. It was a miracle no one in my group was hit.

Needless to say, E.R. is not one of my favorite people. And I know first hand that the greatest terror threat in this country comes from the fundamentalists within.

Jack,

I think we all agree E.R. was a douchebag, including Warren. However, he did do a pretty good job of hiding in the woods, no argument there. You're stretching the context of what he said just a wee bit.

smokymtnsteve
01-21-2006, 20:43
all around Murphy NC that year diners had signs out front that said

ERIC EATS HERE!

There were also shoppes where U could order and an ERIC BURGER.

Jack Tarlin
01-21-2006, 20:58
Hey Wook....

Dr. Mengele did a pretty good job hiding out in Brazil for 40 years or so......do we therefore admire him as well? And as you've frequently reminded us, Osama's pretty good at evasion, too. Wanna put him on the "admired" list?

Incidentally, I've already stated that I assume Warren was kidding about admiring Rudolph and was merely making an alleged joke, so calm yourself.

But then again, when you're dealing with a guy who compares himself favorably to Muir, Gandhi, Dr. King, and Henry Thoreau, well who knows what he's really thinking?

Panzer1
01-21-2006, 20:59
Jack,
I think we all agree E.R. was a douchebag, including Warren. However, he did do a pretty good job of hiding in the woods, no argument there. You're stretching the context of what he said just a wee bit.

"Stretching the context", I don't think so. Warren refers to these men as "wise" and having "valid wisdom" , This is what Warren said:

"The first universities were formed by 'traveling scholars' who voluntarily treked to European cities and voluntarily paid wise and experienced people to share their reliable and valid wisdom based on their actual experience.
If I wanted to know about Yosemite, I would have loved to have attended a seminar run by John Muir. Some other examples in like-minded vein:
college women basketball - Pat Summitt
non-violent civil disobedience - Gandhi, Thoreau, King
peace issues - Peace Pilgrim
how to evade Federal authorities in the southern Appalachians- Eric Rudolph
creative bookkeeping - Enron accountants
how to be a respectable, government backed terrorist - George Bush"

MOWGLI
01-21-2006, 21:08
Some of you are quite "literally" very funny. Do you wizards of the English language think that Warren admires the likes of Ken Lay, Jeffrey Skilling and President Bush? Do you think he believes that troika to be "wise", just like he allegedly believes that about Eric Rudolph?

Oops. Sorry to mention that. I didn't mean to blow a hole in your thesis. ;)

smokymtnsteve
01-21-2006, 21:08
ER is wise and has wisdom of how to avoid the FBI inthe southern mtns....possibly even insider info.

and he is certainly experienced in avoiding the FBI....



Main Entry: 2wise
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): wis·er; wis·est
Etymology: Middle English wis, from Old English wIs; akin to Old High German wIs wise, Old English witan to know -- more at WIT
1 a : characterized by wisdom : marked by deep understanding, keen discernment, and a capacity for sound judgment b : exercising sound judgment : PRUDENT
2 a : evidencing or hinting at the possession of inside information : KNOWING b : possessing inside information c : CRAFTY, SHREWD

Groucho
01-21-2006, 21:20
But otherwise I think he is a sad example of an extreme REligious Conservative, basically a nut case, like many of his ilk.

WEary

You mean the dissident Eric Rudolph?

I'm not sure what extreme REligious Conservative means, but Rudolph was a Roman Catholic, self-described mainstream at that.

Panzer1
01-21-2006, 21:30
"wise" has a sympathetic tone to me. Dosen't sit well with me.

Panzer

smokymtnsteve
01-21-2006, 21:56
"wise" has a sympathetic tone to me. Dosen't sit well with me.

Panzer

I'm sure the pro-lifers that supported rudolf found him wise in ways to avoid the FBI. Eric has much wisdom about the southern mtns and it's communities.

weary
01-21-2006, 22:42
Hey Wook....

Dr. Mengele did a pretty good job hiding out in Brazil for 40 years or so......do we therefore admire him as well? And as you've frequently reminded us, Osama's pretty good at evasion, too. Wanna put him on the "admired" list?

Incidentally, I've already stated that I assume Warren was kidding about admiring Rudolph and was merely making an alleged joke, so calm yourself.

But then again, when you're dealing with a guy who compares himself favorably to Muir, Gandhi, Dr. King, and Henry Thoreau, well who knows what he's really thinking?
Jack for God's sake read, read, read. Warren didn't compare himself favorably to any of those people. That's total and absolute nonsense.

Weary

Almost There
01-21-2006, 22:51
Weary,

I beg to differ, Warren did in fact compare himself to said individuals. He was talking about experts in different fields, and then he went into his bit on traveling scholars paying for educational experiences. He definitely was going there in relation to his knowledge of hiking the AT, no, I don't think he was saying he was the same as them in their respective fields, but he was saying that his experience on the AT is comparative to these people in their respective fields.

Nonviolent Resistance=Dr. King, Gandhi
Appalachian Trail Hiking=Warren Doyle

It's is up for the community to decide if he is as great an expert as he says. I will give him in the past he has done great things for the trail and hiking. Founding the ALDHA for example, but sometimes people and organizations evolve, and if you don't want to evolve with them you are left behind, often a bitter pill to swallow, as I am sure it was for him. I do know talking to some involved that they didn't want him out completely, but he supposedly didn't want to be involved on their terms, so he took his ball and went home.

Frosty
01-21-2006, 23:49
I beg to differ, Warren did in fact compare himself to said individuals. I think anyone who knows Warren, whether they like him or not, will have to admit that Warren does not compare himself to or admire President Bush. And that would have to be the understantement of the year.

No, I think Mowglil hit it on the head. These are people who Warren thinks are good at what they do. That is, Warren thinks Bush is good at being a terrorist and Rudolf is good at hiding the the southern mtns.

Not sure why all this matters...

Almost There
01-22-2006, 01:33
I agree, so if Bush is a terrorist...then Warren is a hiker of equal ability, if Gandhi is a great nonviolent protester, than by like definition...Warren is a great hiker. It's like saying Walter Payton was as good a football player as Mickey Mantle was a baseball player. It's comparison in their respective professions.

gpsblake
01-22-2006, 01:51
From what I have read.

Anytime someone has a question for Warren Doyle about the AT, he'll usually answer it free of charge here on whiteblaze.

Panzer1
01-22-2006, 02:57
Incidentally, I've already stated that I assume Warren was kidding about admiring Rudolph and was merely making an alleged joke, so calm yourself.

Actually, I have read that some people from North Carolina really do admire Rudolph and helped him stay at large.

Panzer

tombone
01-22-2006, 05:50
after wading through this thread, i find comfort knowing that i can park my car at a trail crossing and walk in either direction and be reasonably assured that i'll have the trail to myself-y'all will be busy back and forthing ad nauseam...

smokymtnsteve
01-22-2006, 20:01
Actually, I have read that some people from North Carolina really do admire Rudolph and helped him stay at large.

Panzer

some in NC???

eric and the army of god is alive and well. and world wide.

warning contains graphic images..

http://www.armyofgod.com/

Almost There
01-22-2006, 20:07
Alright, I gotta say Smokie that was just a little disturbing!

Lone Wolf
01-22-2006, 20:11
Abortion is murder. Call it what you want. It ain't right.

Almost There
01-22-2006, 20:21
If they're guilty of murder then that is between them and God, it is not for people to physically attack anyone over, but I do respect everyone's opinion here.

smokymtnsteve
01-22-2006, 20:52
Abortion is murder. Call it what you want. It ain't right.

then we should be locking up and giving capital punishment/life sentences to the women who are having abortions????

why only attack and kill the doctors?

Panzer1
01-22-2006, 21:02
Abortion is murder. Call it what you want. It ain't right.

But Rudolph was blowing up 111 people at the Atlantic olympics and also blowing up gay night clubs. Killing people at random. These have noting to do with abortion.

Panzer

smokymtnsteve
01-22-2006, 21:05
But Rudolph was blowing up 111 people at the Atlantic olympics and also blowing up gay night clubs. Killing people at random. These have noting to do with abortion.

Panzer

ah but it does have something to do with the Army of G-d

http://www.armyofgod.com/Leviticus.html

Panzer1
01-22-2006, 23:31
I don't know..

Panzer

Lugnut
01-23-2006, 01:39
Abortion is murder. Call it what you want. It ain't right.

You've got that right!

smokymtnsteve
01-23-2006, 01:50
You've got that right!

what punishment do you suggest for the women who have abortions?

MOWGLI
01-23-2006, 07:19
what punishment do you suggest for the women who have abortions?

You know, if SGT Rock was around, he would have already chided y'all for discussing this topic in an AT Forum. Its about as off topic as anything I've seen. Out of respect to Sarge, why don't you cut this discussion on the "A" word short. You're only going to inflame passions.

orangebug
01-23-2006, 07:54
Oh, let them have at it. It is one great way for the Warren-bashers to look even more stupid.

warren doyle
01-23-2006, 11:56
Wow, 62 posts in just over 36 hours! Just like the good ol' days. Now substitute 'miles' for 'posts' and we will have a good comparison with Squeaky's required pace to do a sub-40 day AT thru-hike this season.

I also believe that agitation can be part of an educational strategy - after all, there is no growth without struggle (i.e., no Maine without pain or rain).

my post #180 - "If I wanted to know about...." The 'wandering scholars' were students who were interested in learning about certain things in a face-to-face manner. If I was interested in learning about non-violent civil disobedience (and I am), I would have loved to have been able to listen to (face-to-face) Gandhi, Thoreau and/or MLK because they were successful at it.

If I was interested in learning about violent resistance (which I'm not interested in practicing), I would seek out people who have been successful at it - like Eric Rudolph and the Oklahoma City bomber. I do not admire these two but I am always curious to 'know thy enemy'.

As a matter of fact, I would welcome an opportunity to listen to Osama Bin Laden and George Bush in a seminar together talking about their own forms of terrorism and why they are so successful at it. I do not admire these two either and I do not aspire to become a terrorist.

Back to the more 'mundane' matter of fulfilling one's dream of completing a AT thru-hike, I certainly would want a prospective thru-hiker to talk/listen to someone (face-to-face) who has been successful at it, especially one of the same gender, age, socioeconomic level, life transition stage. Prospective thru-hikers can be better educated at Rucks, Gatherings, talking(over pizza) to former thru-hikers that live in their vicinity, attending the Appalachian Trail Institute rather than getting their planning/preparation info primarily from non-long distance hiker outfitter employees and the many people on this website who can really 'talk the walk' but haven't really 'walked the walk'.

Austexs #1188 - Alcohol is allowed on the expeditions. However, the mission/task of the circle expedition traditionally has attracted people who aren't that interested in alcohol consumption so we don't have a problem with that. No one gets kicked out of the 'circle'. Please don't compare it with someone getting kicked out the Doyle (no relation) Hotel bar and then getting run over by a train.

Lone Wolf #189 - The feeling is mutual. I'm just disappointed they don't serve Kool-Aid at Dot's.

Panzer1 #190 - I neither admire nor support Eric Rudolph. However, he was quite successful in evading a large manhunt. Who knows what the future may bring with the continued attack on our personal liberties (i.e., Patriot Act). Some of us peace-loving citizens may have to learn to know how to hide from 'Big Brother'.

Weary #192; #224 - 'Mr. Insightful'. You have an open invitation to my 'Kool-Aid' party.

MOWGLI16 - Yet another voice of reason.

Almost There #225 - In my opinion, you are still 'Not Even Close'. I advise you to listen to your wife more.

Frosty #226 - Thanks. Unlike 'Not Even Close' (a.k.a. Almost There), at least you speak from actually having talked with me face-to-face over several days. I wish you well on your 2006 attempt.

gpsblake #228 - Thanks. Sometimes it takes an 'objective' newbie to state the obvious.

orangebug #242 - BINGO!!!

Almost There
01-23-2006, 13:03
Warren, did you even read post #227? Also, if I am Not even Close then you are Mr. Avoidance. Since when do you have to talk to someone to form an opinion on them, especially when there are many who have been in contact with you over the years, some of which I have had the pleasure of getting to know. If that were really the case then I guess no one could ever write a biography again on anyone who was already DEAD. Of course, if you don't like what is said, or you can't rebutt it, then you simply ignore it or start namecalling. It is obvious you think you are a consummate hiker, and I have never said you weren't, read #227 again and you will see what I mean. BTW why did you use those examples of "experts" in their fields, if you weren't making the comparison that you were an expert in your field(hiking the AT), was it simply to impress us that you knew who these people were(sarcasm, again!). Most rational people would have no desire to sit anywhere near OBL, listening to crazies....takes one to know one, eh, Warren? As for Bush being a terrorist??? He's dumber than a box of rocks, and like most of them in Washington doesn't give a rip about the majority of us...but a terrorist? Wait a second...you teach young adults? I hope you don't go spouting your personal political rhetoric in your classroom like you do on here or at ALDHA Gatherings. Do you subscribe to any conspiracy theories as well? Was Dubya responsible for 9/11, or is the war all about oil? I'm sure you have crackpot answers for these too. Enlighten me, I am seated and waiting to learn, oh, I who am as you put it, "Not even Close".

Almost There
01-23-2006, 13:07
Also we all know you are not interested in practicing Violent resistance, Warren, after all you told me back in October that as a football coach I was coaching a..."Bloodsport." I figure if that's how you see football, well, the rational conclusion does not need to be stated.

Alligator
01-23-2006, 13:19
Warren #180-An extended analogy was presented between attending a lecture (face-to-face) and experienced lecturers. Your experience pales in magnitude to what Gandhi and MLK did for civil disobedience and in effect civil rights. Both Gandhi and MLK drew crowds in the tens to hundreds of thousands of people. Your relationship to the AT does not approach the relationship they had with CD, especially your paltry and childish attempts at CD regarding entrance fees.

The Osama analogy is better--a clandestine cell of operatives come to hear their fanatical leader. [Now I'm just kidding you here.]

...
Back to the more 'mundane' matter of fulfilling one's dream of completing a AT thru-hike, I certainly would want a prospective thru-hiker to talk/listen to someone (face-to-face) who has been successful at it, especially one of the same gender, age, socioeconomic level, life transition stage. Prospective thru-hikers can be better educated at Rucks, Gatherings, talking(over pizza) to former thru-hikers that live in their vicinity, attending the Appalachian Trail Institute rather than getting their planning/preparation info primarily from non-long distance hiker outfitter employees and the many people on this website who can really 'talk the walk' but haven't really 'walked the walk'.
...
That's more elitist bull**** to fuel your ego. The above does not always hold true. Even the greenest newbie may have an insight that the most experienced veteran may not see. As for this website, bad advice is readily pointed out, and alternative viewpoints are plentiful. This website has a large cadre of experienced hikers and every question pertaining to a thruhike need not have a thruhiker's reply. Do you think you can't be a coach if you've never been a pro? The swipe at outfitters is prejudiced also. The gal at the outfitter may have an expert opinion on packs, seeing multiple products come and go with associated failures, repairs, and returns. Who's to say a thru would have a better assessment? Get over yourself Warren.

Almost There
01-23-2006, 14:46
By Warren's definition, if you haven't used it or done it, than you don't know. Just like you can't comment on what he was thinking unless you have talked to him. Time and experience can be bring wisdom, but not always. Used to be an old saying around the contractors I used to work around. Just because someone has done something for thirty years doesn't mean he's better than the new guy. Their work speaks for themselves. In other words, the guy doing it for five years could be better at it than the guy who's done it for 30 years. Hiking doesn't get measured that way, but when you stair down your nose at us younger guys, who call you into question, it is insulting. What if I was over fifty would it be o.k.? Your first post directed at me pointed out you had been hiking long before I was born, not quite, but I see your point, age matters more to you...than intelligence.

rickb
01-23-2006, 14:52
Comment:

In my long an storied Internet browsing career, I have read just one post from an individual who identified himself as an ATI participant, and no posts from any individual who identified himself as circle member. That single comment was all positive, btw.


Question for Warren:

Do you discourage your paying ATI students and Expedition members from commenting on-line regarding their experiences with your course and/or expedition?

Follow up question for Warren if the answer is no:

Any chance you could encourage some of your successful participants to share the benefit of your programs with the Whiteblaze community?

the goat
01-23-2006, 15:14
i'm sure those who choose to participate in the ATI find it beneficial and worth the dough, or else they wouldn't pay for it. from what i understand, warren doesn't ask for payment until the course is over & then only if you're satisfied.

i haven't a clue a/b the "circle expeditions" though.......

Alligator
01-23-2006, 15:40
Comment:

In my long an storied Internet browsing career, I have read just one post from an individual who identified himself as an ATI participant, and no posts from any individual who identified himself as circle member. That single comment was all positive, btw.

...

Any chance you could encourage some of your successful participants to share the benefit of your programs with the Whiteblaze community?
I remember two and found what I thought was the second one. I'm not sure if it was the one I was thinking of, there may be three.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2799&highlight=appalachian+trail+institute
See Red Hat #19 (Like Willie Nelson she said:eek: )

Any participants would be a fairer request though.