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hikernutcasey
08-10-2015, 09:41
Leaving Saturday for a trip from Franconia to Gorham/US-2. We have prepped and trained hard and are going to try to make it to Garfield on day 1. I realize this might not happen - we are going to go to Liberty Springs campsite and access how we feel and see what the weather looks like. Anyway, assuming we make it, it will give us a buffer day before we get to Pinkham where we have reservations to stay at Joe Dodge on our 6th night.

Our original plan was to hike from the Perch to Pinkham on that 6th day but if we have the previously mentioned buffer, we plan on taking our time leaving the Perch and maybe hit a couple of the Presidential summits that the A.T. doesn't cross and stop short at Osgood. Then the following day take our time and maybe hit a side trail between Osgood and Pinkham. My question is what would you recommend seeing or doing between Osgood and Pinkham? Is there anything cool we can see on a side trail in there? Maybe a cool waterfall or something. Just looking for a short side trip so we don't get to Pinkham at lunch and have all afternoon to kill.

Suggestions?

peakbagger
08-10-2015, 10:16
Not knowing your conditioning for rocks, the first day is very optimistic with a backpack on. I would guess 12 plus hours. I expect if you make it to Garfield you will end up really having a tough time getting going the next day. The tough part is that the hike up to Liberty and then the ridge walk to Haystack is the easiest part of the day. Once you hit Haystack and above treeline it gets harder due to the rock hopping required along the ridge. The section of the AT between Lafayette and Garfield is somewhat infamous for being harder than expected so the hardest part of the day is at the end of a very long stretch. You are better of heading up to Liberty, dropping the packs and visiting Flume as a short hike, then getting up early and taking your time over to Garfield.

Keep in mind, there is no water on the ridge between Liberty Springs and the low spot south of Garfield unless you decide to detour to Greenleaf hut (1 mile and 1000 feet up and down but usually good baked goods for sale).

Unfortunately your options for side trails in the Great Gulf are a bit limited. Although there are numerous water falls and pools along the Peabody River there are really no standout spots in the gulf unless you head up to Spaulding Lake.

Another standard caveat is Madison Gulf Trail is in no way a bad weather blue blaze to skip Osgood. Granted it has less exposure than Osgood but its steepness and multiple stream crossings make it more hazardous.

Driver8
08-10-2015, 11:34
Peakbagger, you don't think a few miles up into the Great Gulf Trail would be a pretty, worthwhile side trip? I've heard there are some nice falls along it and the occasional peek up at Jeff, Adams and Madison, plus the feeling of remote wilderness. Personally, it's a hike I look forward to with relish.

DavidNH
08-10-2015, 12:08
do I understand correctly? your plan is to climb to summit of Mt Flume.. hike over liberty, haystack, Lincoln, Lafayette,and the ridge over Mt Garfield to Mt.Garfield campsite all on day 1?? that ain't happenin'. Ridiculously long day. I would suggest day 1 up to Liberty Springs Camp site,then day 2 out to Garfield Ridge Campsite, then to Ethan Pond Campsite then to Crawford Notch and so on. Remember, weather could easily be an issue.. bad weather will slow you down (a lot in the Presidentials).

burger
08-10-2015, 12:21
Despite the negative comments above, Garfield is totally doable from Franconia Notch in a day if you are in shape and trained. I did this exact day on the first day of my White Mountains section hike a few years back. It was tiring, but I think it took something like 9 hours, not 12. Then I got up the next morning and made it to Ethan Pond.

The OP said they had trained hard and they have a bail out option if things look bad. I know a lot of people show up in the Whites and are totally unprepared (including some thru-hikers), but it's a little annoying how the White Mountain "experts" here assume that everyone who asks for advice is out of shape.

hikernutcasey
08-10-2015, 12:35
Sorry didn't mean to start a whole thread on whether or not it was a good idea to hike the AT from Franconia notch to Garfield campsite. If you look at my post history you will see that I have researched this a lot and my buddy and I have went over this ad nauseum. Yes we are in tip top shape and are experienced backpackers but we aren't conceited enough to think that we will just waltz right through the Whites either. Another reason we would like to try and make it is that way we have more options on the day we go across Washington if the weather were to be bad there and we are forced to bail on making it to the Perch. Lots of thought and research have went into this trip. I appreciate the info on both sides of the argument and rest assured if there is any doubt when we get to Liberty we will set the tent up.

Please realize that my original question was a hypothetical one and we very well could get to Liberty campsite and call it a day. However, if we feel really good and the weather is nice, we may try to make it. If so, I would like to know what we might be able to explore and see while spending an extra day around Osgood.

BirdBrain
08-10-2015, 12:45
The Perch to Pinkham is very doable for those in shape. I did Lincoln woods to Garfield and I am likely not in as good of shape as you. The Perch to Pinkham is easier than the Garfield day... in my opinion. All this assumes cooperative weather of course. The Blue Blazes to the Presidentials do not add that much to the walk. I see no issues... except possibly weather. :)

tdoczi
08-10-2015, 12:51
ive done franconia notch to galehead. took me about 9-10 hours. wasnt easy, but certainly doable. to garfield campsite is a shorter day and i think easily doable.

peakbagger
08-10-2015, 13:35
Burger is an optimist, I am a pessimist. I see the OPs location, North Carolina and assume his "hard" training is in the south which although strenuous usually has far more switchbacks and a much easier footbed. This entire hike on he first day is "fall line" hiking, little or no switchbacks and directly up or down a ridgeline about 3/4 of the way on a trail paved with rock. The parkway to Garfield Ridge Shelter is about 8.5 miles with 5500 feet elevation gain. Using AMC book time (2 MPH plus 1/2 hour per thousand) the hike is 7 hours plus breaks. Plenty of time to someone used to hiking in the whites. My problem is I don't know if the OP is used to hiking in the whites and a definition of hard training is relative. I routinely see and hear comments from thru hikers that they have had to halve their mileage in the whites and many plan on hiking from Liberty Springs to Garfield shelter at least partially as they want to enjoy the views and partially as the last two days from Moosilaukee to the parkway has worn them out. I also have heard reports of weekend hikers regretting going from the Parkway to Garfield ridge over the years so I have factored that into my comment.

Wil
08-10-2015, 14:11
...there is no water on the ridge between Liberty Springs and the low spot south of Garfield unless you decide to detour to Greenleaf hut (1 mile and 1000 feet up and down...Lafayette Spring is only about 300 yards from the Lafayette summit down towards the hut. Up in the rocks to the left; it's the source of the wet spot on the trail right there. Never seen it dry but it's not robust and sometimes drips slowly. There are two spots before Garfield Pond (that's your "low spot south of Garfield" I think) where water pools just off the trail. One about a mile and 1/4 before the Pond and the other about a mile (these are guesses). Both are at places where the trail itself is usually very wet. There are other places in this general area where water sometimes collects right on the trail deep enough to scoop up with an envelope into a dirty water bottle to then filter (I wouldn't just chemically treat or steripen this water as people are pretty much walking in it). Of course all this takes time so most hikers simply load up at last water on the Osseo Trail or Falling Waters or at or Liberty Spring. And/or just hike thirsty until the Pond.

In old versions of the AT Guide there is reference to water off trail in one of the cols coming down North Lafayette, "under the moss." I have found water pooling in various breaks in the moss here in this general area from time to time, to the left of the trail 50-75 yards or so, but not predictably in any particular spot and most people are in too much of a hurry to enjoy the wandering around time it would take to find. I love to wander, so I never have any trouble finding water along the Garfield ridge Trail. Frequently the terrain suggests where water would pool but more often than not there's none where you'd think, but all of a sudden somewhere else it's just there.

BirdBrain
08-10-2015, 14:39
I would not discount one syllable that peakbagger says about any part of the White Mountains. He is in a better position to advise on those hills than most. The OP did not seem to want Garfield opinions. Therefore, I only mentioned it to compare it to the Pinkham day. That day is easier than the Garfield day. I agree, however, that the Garfield day should cause some concern. It is hard to guess what the other guy can do especially if he has not hiked the Whites.

Slo-go'en
08-10-2015, 14:55
To answer the OP's question about the Great Gulf, not much to see once your down in it. A couple of vistas along the way to Pinkham. Going up the Great Gulf trail up into the bowl would likely be the best bet for seeing cascades as it follows a stream.

As for the rest of the trip, all I can say is good luck.

tdoczi
08-10-2015, 15:05
Burger is an optimist, I am a pessimist. I see the OPs location, North Carolina and assume his "hard" training is in the south which although strenuous usually has far more switchbacks and a much easier footbed. This entire hike on he first day is "fall line" hiking, little or no switchbacks and directly up or down a ridgeline about 3/4 of the way on a trail paved with rock. The parkway to Garfield Ridge Shelter is about 8.5 miles with 5500 feet elevation gain. Using AMC book time (2 MPH plus 1/2 hour per thousand) the hike is 7 hours plus breaks. Plenty of time to someone used to hiking in the whites. My problem is I don't know if the OP is used to hiking in the whites and a definition of hard training is relative. I routinely see and hear comments from thru hikers that they have had to halve their mileage in the whites and many plan on hiking from Liberty Springs to Garfield shelter at least partially as they want to enjoy the views and partially as the last two days from Moosilaukee to the parkway has worn them out. I also have heard reports of weekend hikers regretting going from the Parkway to Garfield ridge over the years so I have factored that into my comment.

my aforementioned franconia notch to galehead hike was my first time hiking in the whites. it was definitely an eye opener. i ended up hiking in the dark (it was october so dark is like 6pm) for an hour or two. would have preferred not to. but, that could have been fixed with an earlier start. and garfield isnt as far. i say its definitely not something to discourage anyone from trying. worse case they get there a little later than expected tired and sore and go "well we're never doing THAT again" no real harm done.

rickb
08-10-2015, 17:09
Basically the Osgood Tentsite sucks and the trail between there and Pinkham notch will bore you to tears. At best, it serves to get the kinks out.

Joe Dodge sucks too, but with hot showers and beer and the right attitudes can be a hoot. That said, no good reason to get there early.

Good to have the extra day, but better to spend it holing up to get a clear day than getting a waterfall -- but if you want a good one Thoreau Falls is just 100 yards or so down a blue blaze on day 2 (hopefully) or 3.

You ever consider spending night 5 at the Valley Way Campsite rather than Osgood? You would get another shot at a good sunrise and time above treelike. If you are concerned about elevation loss getting there you should not be. Then do some yoga or sunbathing above treelike on day 6 (which could be the only day without clouds and the best one yet) to delay your arrival at Joe Dodge.

peakbagger
08-10-2015, 17:38
Reading Rickb's post I thought of the best way to kill a couple of hours. Drop your pack at Pinkham and head up to Tuckerman's Ravine or Huntington's Ravine. Not enough time to climb them but they are very impressive spots to stand at the base. If you elect to go up to Huntington's don't take the Huntington's Ravine trail, rather head up to Tucks and take the fire road over.

BirdBrain
08-10-2015, 17:52
Square Ledge is an easy viewpoint. If you are hiking to Pinkham Notch, you are going to have to walk the boring stuff after Osgood at some point. Square Ledge is a nice ending. Some people even stealth up there. Nice flat spot tucked behind the big ledge. Not sure if it is frowned on. It is more than 1/4 mile away from the road. I did not notice a sign saying you can't. Nice sunset and sunrise views. Someone save me if I am giving bad advice.

Slo-go'en
08-10-2015, 20:55
Square Ledge is an easy viewpoint. If you are hiking to Pinkham Notch, you are going to have to walk the boring stuff after Osgood at some point. Square Ledge is a nice ending. Some people even stealth up there. Nice flat spot tucked behind the big ledge. Not sure if it is frowned on. It is more than 1/4 mile away from the road. I did not notice a sign saying you can't. Nice sunset and sunrise views. Someone save me if I am giving bad advice.

I don't know where Square ledge is exactly, but if it's in the Great Gulf wilderness (and everything between Madison and Pinkham is) then you need to be at least 200 feet from the trail. If you go 200 feet from the trail in that dense forest, you may never find the trail again (or a place to camp).

BirdBrain
08-10-2015, 21:04
I don't know where Square ledge is exactly, but if it's in the Great Gulf wilderness (and everything between Madison and Pinkham is) then you need to be at least 200 feet from the trail. If you go 200 feet from the trail in that dense forest, you may never find the trail again (or a place to camp).

It is not. It is on the side of Wildcat E. It is directly across from Pinkham Notch Visitor Center. It is a steep 0.5 mile walk up the hill just North of the pond. Nice view.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mXApA5Hc6mY

rickb
08-10-2015, 21:30
I don't know where Square ledge is exactly, but if it's in the Great Gulf wilderness (and everything between Madison and Pinkham is) then you need to be at least 200 feet from the trail. If you go 200 feet from the trail in that dense forest, you may never find the trail again (or a place to camp).

I'll reserve comment on the dense forest part :rolleyes: but would note that there is a special "No Camping anywhere except a a designated Campsite" in the Cutler River Drainage which is basically on the "Trail East" side of the AT (which is not really East if you look at a compass) between Pinkham Notch and the Auto Road, and also on both sides of the AT starting about 1/2 mile "Trail South" of the AMC in Pinkham Notch.

Also, I think the Great Gulf Wilderness stops at the Auto Road (does not extend to Pinkham Notch) so there are some areas on the "Trail West" side where the 200' rule would not apply -- if you are 1/4 mile away from the auto road and the about 1/2 mile south of the AMC buildings.

Slo-go'en
08-10-2015, 22:03
It is not. It is on the side of Wildcat E. It is directly across from Pinkham Notch Visitor Center. It is a steep 0.5 mile walk up the hill just North of the pond. Nice view.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mXApA5Hc6mY

I don't know. Camping on an exposed ledge like that is never a good idea.

BirdBrain
08-10-2015, 22:12
I don't know. Camping on an exposed ledge like that is never a good idea.

Not exposed at all. The spots are not up on the ledge itself. You would have to see it in person.

Driver8
08-11-2015, 00:34
To the OP: assuming good weather, you have another option prior to Garfield tenting area: it is possible to stealth camp around Garfield Pond, saving the very rocky up and over Garfield until the next day. Plus the pond is a plentiful water source.

Wil
08-11-2015, 00:59
...it is possible to stealth camp around Garfield Pond, saving the very rocky up and over Garfield until the next day. Plus the pond is a plentiful water source.Getting a little esoteric here, but IF you choose to stealth camp "around Garfield Pond" as opposed to opposite the pond at the old shelter site, you have already started your way up an abandoned section of the old Garfield Ridge Trail that makes for a much gentler and in some ways nicer ascent of the final Garfield cone. The old trail quickly intersects the Garfield Trail on its way up to the summit. Pretty easy to follow, a few blowdowns. Can have some wet sections.

hikernutcasey
08-11-2015, 07:28
Thanks for all the suggestions. I really like the idea of just hanging out all day up top and then staying at Valley Way. That would give us a lot more above tree line time. All this could be for nought if we decide to stay at Liberty but it's nice to know your options! Thanks again

Driver8
08-11-2015, 09:30
Getting a little esoteric here, but IF you choose to stealth camp "around Garfield Pond" as opposed to opposite the pond at the old shelter site, you have already started your way up an abandoned section of the old Garfield Ridge Trail that makes for a much gentler and in some ways nicer ascent of the final Garfield cone. The old trail quickly intersects the Garfield Trail on its way up to the summit. Pretty easy to follow, a few blowdowns. Can have some wet sections.

This is true, I gather, and the official camping area for Garfield used to be on the pond, so it's not hard to find good spots, is what I hear. Garfield's summit, btw, offers outstanding views. It's about 50 yards south (rightward for NOBOs) off the AT routing and, in good weather, absolutely worth a stop and visit.

rickb
08-11-2015, 11:46
Thanks for all the suggestions. I really like the idea of just hanging out all day up top and then staying at Valley Way. That would give us a lot more above tree line time. All this could be for nought if we decide to stay at Liberty but it's nice to know your options! Thanks again

Just to state the obvious, you would want to be flexible and keep your options open. Valley way only has a couple of Tent Pads, so probably not the best idea to arrive there late in the day-- especially on the weekend-- without a plan "B" like pushing on to Osgood, if needed.

Slo-go'en
08-11-2015, 16:35
Just to state the obvious, you would want to be flexible and keep your options open. Valley way only has a couple of Tent Pads, so probably not the best idea to arrive there late in the day-- especially on the weekend-- without a plan "B" like pushing on to Osgood, if needed.

I thought there were more sites at Valley Way, but the companion says two large tent platforms. I stopped by there a week or so ago, but didn't fully explore it. I sat at the most obvious site, ate lunch and packed out some trash the weekend hikers had left.

Only 3 small platforms at Osgood. My guess is you'd be less likely to find space at Osgood then Valley Way late in the day. But it's a really steep decent to the VW tent sites from the hut and I'd hate to get there and find no space. No good options at that point, especially if it's getting late.

peakbagger
08-11-2015, 16:55
Osgood Tentsite is in open woods, plenty of campsites around and if I remember correctly its just outside the wilderness boundary. Valley Way is not in open woods and its long way down until the woods open up. Because its free and so close to treeline and Madison hut I generally don't recommend to plan for it.

rickb
08-11-2015, 17:35
Osgood Tentsite is in open woods, plenty of campsites around and if I remember correctly its just outside the wilderness boundary. Valley Way is not in open woods and its long way down until the woods open up. Because its free and so close to treeline and Madison hut I generally don't recommend to plan for it.

How would you rate walking to Valley Way in the dark after doing some stare gazing on a perfectly clear night after a leisurely dinner above treeline-- assuming you pitched your tent at Valley Way way earlier in the day after a short walk from the Perch?

I am genuinely curious -- I have done precious little night hiking and none in the Presidentials.
This thread is giving me some ideas, though.

Slo-go'en
08-11-2015, 21:52
How would you rate walking to Valley Way in the dark after doing some stare gazing on a perfectly clear night after a leisurely dinner above treeline-- assuming you pitched your tent at Valley Way way earlier in the day after a short walk from the Perch?

I am genuinely curious -- I have done precious little night hiking and none in the Presidentials.
This thread is giving me some ideas, though.

Slow. Very slow. You really have to watch your footing there as your not able to see more then one or two steps ahead. However, that side of the mountain and elevation gets a decent amount of twilight, so long as it's reasonably clear. So long as you get most of the way back down to the tent site before it gets really dark, shouldn't be too bad. I really like being out that at time of day, but not far from camp.

I could see doing a Perch - Valley Way 2 night loop hike which would allow spending a day doing Jefferson, Adams and Madison. The trick is picking the right 2 nights to do this.

Driver8
08-13-2015, 01:32
Slow. Very slow. You really have to watch your footing there as your not able to see more then one or two steps ahead.

It wouldn't be too bad with a good headlamp, though, I'm guessing?

hikernutcasey
08-26-2015, 16:53
I thought I would share some thoughts about my trip now that I have returned. First of all, I just want to say that no matter what you think you know about the Whites, until you hike them you have no idea. I did my homework and still came away astonished at the difficulty of the hiking up there. It's just punishing. To all of you who gave me advice about the daily mileages I appreciate it. The trip went great and even though the days were long the mileage we did each day worked out great. Here is a summary of the trip:

Day 1: Franconia Notch to Garfield campsite: Yes, we made the campsite on the first day! It was not easy and was probably one of the most physically demanding days I've ever had on the trail. It was sunny and warm and the views were spectacular. We made it to Garfield by 6:00 in the evening and were beat. An unbelievable first day in the Whites to kick things off.

Day 2: Garfield campsite to Ethan pond: at 14 miles this was our longest day but it was doable due to the stretch from Zealand Hut over to the pond. It was still a very long day and the climb up south twin was steep! Again it was hot but sunny and more views to be had.

Day 3: Ethan pond to Naumen campsite: We sent ourselves a food re-supply to the Wiley house in Crawford Notch so this added 2 miles of road walking to this day. Again it was really hot this day and the climb up to Webster almost killed us with heavier packs from the re-supply and having to carry plenty of water. Especially the stretch from Webster cliffs over to the peak was brutal. You are exposed and it was 80+ degrees having to climb up all those rock faces right before the top. That was really, really tough.

Day 4: Nauman to the Perch: We got up at 5:00 and were out by 6:00 and got to hike towards the sunrise towards Washington up the southern Presidentials. This was my favorite part of the hike. It was really clear out and the wind was completely still. I have to imagine this was one in a hundred type of day. On top of Washington when we arrived it was 62 degrees and the wind was blowing 3 mph. Unreal. The afternoon walk over to the Perch was just as spectacular. Views of the Northern Prezis were magnificent. It was a long difficult day but again, doable.

Day 5: Perch to Osgood: Since we made Garfield on the first day we had kind of a buffer day to play with but since the weather was so good every day we really didn't need it. So instead we just relaxed and took it easy. I left my pack with my buddy and summited Mt. Adams and we hung out at Madison hut for a couple hours just eating baked goods and relaxing. The trip up Madison was our first run in with any kind of weather. The clouds had rolled in and coming off the other side all the way to treeline the wind was howling. It was easily blowing 30+ with much higher gusts. It was hard to walk in but since the temps were so mild it didn't even really feel cold.

Day 6: Osgood to Pinkham Notch: The other half of the buffer day allowed us to get to our reservations we had at Joe Dodge Lodge. Again an easy, lazy day. We got the lodge before the only rain of the trip hit so that was good. Food, shower and a bed to sleep on and we were good to go for the rest of the trip.

Day 7: Pinkham to Zeta Pass: We couldn't make it to Imp. It was just too far for us. We stealthed near Zeta with a couple thru hikers, one of whose trail journal I had been following (Airlock) so that was really cool. Again, great weather and the views from Wildcat and Mt. Height were awesome!

Day 8: Zeta Pass to Gorham: Great weather again, and the views were starting to deteriorate as rain was forecast for the evening but we did get some good ones first thing in the morning. At this point we were tired and just ready to get to White Mountain hostel.

So an unbelievable 8 days of hiking in the Whites without getting rained on at all and we got pretty much every single view you could ask for. It could not have worked out any better. It was truly the trip of a lifetime for us. Thanks again for all the advice and help in planning on this thread and the others I posted over the previous few months.

peakbagger
08-26-2015, 17:38
Great feedback and boy you lucked out rare to string together so many nice days.

rafe
08-26-2015, 17:46
Sounds like an awesome hike. Thanks for the report!