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Mouse
11-25-2005, 15:47
Just over three weeks ago I had a real eye-opener.

I got up from the computer I am writing this on, took a couple steps and turned my ankle just like I did countless times on my Thruhike. Only this time my knee popped out and I found myself on the floor with what turned out to be a broken fibula.

My first thought was of how easily it had happened and what if I had been out on the AT or much worse yet, on the remote unfrequented trails I hiked out in California.

I ended up scooting along the floor to my gear closet, getting out my trekking poles and using them to steady myself as I hopped on the good foot down the hall to the elevator then to my car, then from the hospital garage to the ER.

But what about out on a Trail? On the AT I think I would have set up my tent right in the middle of the trail and gotten in my sleeping bag had it been winter or late in the day to await the next hiker. But in less traveled trails that might only make me easier to find once someone did come along. What would you do?

smokymtnsteve
11-25-2005, 16:05
I aways carry a fatal dose of an opiate..Just in case ;)

MOWGLI
11-25-2005, 16:07
That's tough luck. Dang! I hope you're mending OK.

What would I do on the trail? Although I often hike on trails that are less frequently traveled, I usually hike with a partner. Thinking about doing the AT/Bartram loop after the SORUCK. I suspect the Bartram Trail will be little traveled. I'll probably have a partner on that hike too.

TooTall
11-25-2005, 17:06
But what about out on a Trail? On the AT I think I would have set up my tent right in the middle of the trail and gotten in my sleeping bag had it been winter or late in the day to await the next hiker. But in less traveled trails that might only make me easier to find once someone did come along. What would you do?

Make a splint using a hiking pole or sticks and walk out? What else could you do on a less traveled trail? Likely you've got food and water for a couple of days so you're not in a life or death situation. Maybe make sure that any solo hike always has a bail out point at most a days hobble away?

Too Tall Paul

Mouse
11-25-2005, 17:52
Trust me, even with the tibia, the larger bone, intact the leg will not bear weight. That was the first thing I discovered after the break.

rickb
11-25-2005, 18:05
Having had my leg broken once, I know the feeling of not being able to put any weight on it.

As to your question, I am thinking that you should run out an rent the most excellent movie "Touching the Void" to find the answer :D

Shutterbug
11-25-2005, 19:49
That is the reason I carry a satellite phone when I hike alone in remote areas.

Wolf - 23000
11-25-2005, 19:52
I’ve been hurt severely several times while backpacking including starting my first 20 miles backpacking with a badly sprain ankle. Sense then during off season backpacking or on remote sections I’ve taken several falls, been hit on the head by a tree, hit on a road walk with a full size CAMPER, had my feet FROZEN (I’m talking black feet). I did the normal field first aid and each time I’ve kept hiking. It not because I wasn’t hurt, but while out there you develop a high level threshold for pain. Sometimes you just keep going even when you are hurt.

Kerosene
11-25-2005, 20:19
Wolf - 23000, remind me never to hike with you.

Scrunchy
11-25-2005, 21:44
LOL! I thought the same thing Kerosene :)

Chip
11-25-2005, 23:43
There are several things you can do to help yourself that are taught in a Wilderness First Aid course... if you broke a bone or had a bad cut, gash etc... if something worse should happen and you are solo ... well let's hope that is not the case.

I will go on day hikes solo. My wife knows where I am going and what time I will be back home which includes a fudge factor (maybe an hour or two, depends on where I'm going). I haven't gone solo on overnights or section hiking for some time now. When going on an overnight or section hike with my wife or friends or tend to think along the lines of scuba diving. It is best not to go diving alone for the sake of your own safety. Lately though I must confess that I have thought of a solo section hike. Still thinking about it. I carry good first aid kit and cell phone but those are only good to a certain extent.

Regardless it is up to you and what you are comfortable with. Basically your skill level and what you might or could do if something should happen.
Good Luck,
Chip:)

smokymtnsteve
11-25-2005, 23:54
I go dog sledding at 20 below ...all by myself. ;)

saimyoji
11-26-2005, 03:08
Are we finally seeing the rationalization for carrying cell phones/other digital communications devices?

I always carry a cell phone. My wife insists on it. I, however, insist on it being OFF until I want to use it.

justusryans
11-26-2005, 03:24
No cell phone for me. I'll just accept the inevitable. The whole purpose of this hike is self-reliance.

Jaybird
11-26-2005, 08:07
Just over three weeks ago I had a real eye-opener...
I got up from the computer I am writing this on, took a couple steps and turned my ankle just like I did countless times on my Thruhike. Only this time my knee popped out and I found myself on the floor with what turned out to be a broken fibula.........etcv.,etc.,etc,......... What would you do?


Geez Mouse! heck of a twist you got that knee into! heheheehehehee

Hope things are on the mend for you quickly.
I'd pretty much do what would be expected....sit on the side of the trail til the next hiker (or group of hikers) happened by...treat the injury as much as you can with the Emergency First Aid kit/supplies....take a MONGO LOAD of VIATAMIN I"

they could get you to the next road crossing.

If on a less traveled trail...get in your shelter (tent) & wait til you can either "hobble out" or someone happens by within 24 hours or so. (according to your food/emergency supplies)

MOWGLI
11-26-2005, 08:16
Are we finally seeing the rationalization for carrying cell phones/other digital communications devices?



No, not really. They can't be depended upon.

jlb2012
11-26-2005, 10:57
if anyone is really concerned about the possibility of being badly hurt and alone in areas with minimal traffic then there _is_ the option of a personal locator beacon (PLB) - see http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00205.html for some discussion

note PLBs are rather controversial and are _not_ something I would use mainly due to the weight and my own personal philosophy

justusryans
11-26-2005, 11:12
I wore an E.P.I.R.B. when I commercial fished in AK. Not that I'm convinced it would have saved my life. Survival time is counted in seconds...

Wolf - 23000
11-26-2005, 11:13
Are we finally seeing the rationalization for carrying cell phones/other digital communications devices?

I always carry a cell phone. My wife insists on it. I, however, insist on it being OFF until I want to use it.

Iíve been injured several times out there but I still canít rationalization carrying a cell phone. When you enter nature you accept the fact that naturally things are going to happen. It is all part of life. To use a cell phone and expect someone to risk their safety and come bail you out is just not cool. What happens if the rescuer(s) gets themselves hurt or even killed? There are too many yahoos out there that call 911 over stupid, they have a blister on their foot, their feet hurt, etc.

Kerosene & Scrunchy, I normal do hike alone but anyone who been out repeatedly in all types of weather can expect to get bang-up some.

Dances with Mice
11-26-2005, 11:41
Mouse - get well soon.


Are we finally seeing the rationalization for carrying cell phones/other digital communications devices? I always carry a cell phone. My wife insists on it.


Iíve been injured several times out there but I still canít rationalization carrying a cell phone. After wives insist, every second spent on rationalization is wasted time.

Chip
11-26-2005, 11:51
Iíve been injured several times out there but I still canít rationalization carrying a cell phone. When you enter nature you accept the fact that naturally things are going to happen. It is all part of life. To use a cell phone and expect someone to risk their safety and come bail you out is just not cool. What happens if the rescuer(s) gets themselves hurt or even killed? There are too many yahoos out there that call 911 over stupid, they have a blister on their foot, their feet hurt, etc.

Kerosene & Scrunchy, I normal do hike alone but anyone who been out repeatedly in all types of weather can expect to get bang-up some.

I can understand your point of view, it is a good one.

I carry a cell phone for the use ONLY if there is a dire emergency. There are still alot of areas that a cell phone will not work from here in the mountains. It is a 50 - 50 chance of getting out with a call sometimes. I check only when scouting out a trail that I plan to lead a group hike on a week or two in advance.

If you or someone else gets injured in the backwoods it will take a crew of people (8 or more) to get you out. There is nothing wrong in using a cell phone for this purpose. Remember if you have a fire at home or need the police, you call, they arrive, and they too are at risk. This is no different than being in the woods with a dire situation. I agree with you that a cell phone should not be used for minor problems AND most of all not used at anytime for any other reason. :)

Scrunchy
11-26-2005, 12:44
Kerosene & Scrunchy, I normal do hike alone but anyone who been out repeatedly in all types of weather can expect to get bang-up some.[/quote]

I definitely agree...I've had my own share of injuries, including a broken knee-cap, but I guess I've been lucky not to have a tree land on me or get mowed down by a camper...:eek:

Youngblood
11-26-2005, 12:48
There is nothing wrong with taking electronics on the trail if that adds to your comfort or safety or enjoyment or lets loved ones back sleep better... just be responsible and curtious to others when you use them.

Husko
11-26-2005, 22:18
I came across a couple on a 2.7 mile loop trail that were sitting in the middle of the trail. The lady looked like she sprang her ankle and it was pretty swollen.

I asked them if they were OK and they told me she might have broken her ankle. I told her I had a cell phone and she kept demanding that I call the fire department. I told her I would not do that but would be happy to call a friend or family member. After dialing the numbers for her, I finally got ah old of her son and he said he would pick her up at the trail near the road.

I know she was in pain, but she acted like she was going to die and meet her maker if the fire department didn't come to rescue her. I could tell she was a bit pee'd that I never called them.

Thing is, after her son hung up, we helped her to the road in about 15 minutes, and let her sit down. Another 15 minutes later, her son picked her up.

I couldn't help but walk away with the idea that most people feel they are right in demanding a professional caravan to help them out of a loose spot.

quite ridiculous actually. I mean, for god's sake, it was 15 minutes from a road hopping along with two fellas under her arms, and a small loop through a wooded area in a rather yuppie neighborhood.

Some times I am ashamed to be human.

Scrunchy
11-26-2005, 23:49
I had an acquaintance who broke her ankle on the trail near Franklin. Called a friend and he gathered up two more people and they went in about 3 miles to carry her out. She had already splinted her leg, and did everything she could until help arrived. They carried her out on their backs, and they said she cracked jokes the whole way, and wanted Dairy Queen when they finally got out. They went to Dairy Queen, then carted her to the hospital in Sylva, where it turns out she had pretty much shattered it and needed surgery and pins. She was a real trooper!!!

Scrunchy
11-26-2005, 23:52
I had an acquaintance who broke her ankle on the trail near Franklin. Called a friend and he gathered up two more people and they went in about 3 miles to carry her out. She had already splinted her leg, and did everything she could until help arrived. They carried her out on their backs, and they said she cracked jokes the whole way, and wanted Dairy Queen when they finally got out. They went to Dairy Queen, then carted her to the hospital in Sylva, where it turns out she had pretty much shattered it and needed surgery and pins. She was a real trooper!!!

Oh...forgot to mention, they called me on a cell, and I got in touch with the guy that went in and rescued her. As much as I hate the darn things, they can be useful!

gumby
11-27-2005, 13:51
Iíve been hurt severely several times while backpacking including starting my first 20 miles backpacking with a badly sprain ankle. Sense then during off season backpacking or on remote sections Iíve taken several falls, been hit on the head by a tree, hit on a road walk with a full size CAMPER, had my feet FROZEN (Iím talking black feet). I did the normal field first aid and each time Iíve kept hiking. It not because I wasnít hurt, but while out there you develop a high level threshold for pain. Sometimes you just keep going even when you are hurt.

Damn if you didn't have bad luck you don't have none at all.:)

fiddlehead
11-27-2005, 20:59
hike out. or crawl, up to you.

Wolf - 23000
11-28-2005, 21:05
Damn if you didn't have bad luck you don't have none at all.

:) Yea I know but Iím sure we all have our own ďbattle scarĒ. It is also one of the reasons I normal travel alone. If I was with someone or called on someone else for help when I was severely injured, I could not guarantee their safety or mine. I not sure I could take the fact of knowing someone else got hurt or worst because of something I was doing.

Wolf

Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-29-2005, 13:15
Mouse - hope you are feeling better.

We're seriously considering a satellite phone. While I wouldn't leave it on nor use it when anyone was around (except in an emergency), I would like to check on my family daily and have the peace of mind of knowing I could get help if either of us or, God forbid, both of us had a medical emergency in the middle of East Bumblebee, Egypt.

JoeHiker
12-02-2005, 14:33
I’ve been injured several times out there but I still can’t rationalization carrying a cell phone. When you enter nature you accept the fact that naturally things are going to happen. It is all part of life. To use a cell phone and expect someone to risk their safety and come bail you out is just not cool. What happens if the rescuer(s) gets themselves hurt or even killed? There are too many yahoos out there that call 911 over stupid, they have a blister on their foot, their feet hurt, etc.

Kerosene & Scrunchy, .

I don't understand this mentality at all. There is a big difference between "accepting the fact that naturally things are going to happen" and preparing for them. If you don't think a cellphone is going to be useful, fine, leave it at home. But this fatalistic, I-won't-bring-it-because-if-I-get-hurt-I-was-meant-to-die sentiment makes no sense

I accept that it's going to rain but that doesn't stop me from bringing a rain jacket. I accept that it might get cold but that doesn't stop me from bringing warm gloves. I accept that I might get hurt off trail but that doesn't stop me from bringing a whistle. I accept that I might get lost and lose my sense of direction but that does not stop me from bringing a compass and a map.

I accept that I might have an emergency that requires me to contact someone by phone but that does not stop me from bringing the phone

If you are worried about the "too many yahoos" who call 911 for a blister then then next time you get a blister, leave your phone off and don't be one of those yahoos.

icemanat95
12-02-2005, 15:39
The tibia alone will definitely bear weight if the fibula is broken, but not without significant to extreme pain as the ends of the fibula waggle around. Been there and done that. I walked off a drop zone at Ft. Benning with a broken fibula, carrying my jump gear. It sucked, but could be done. Granted, my fracture was non-displaced, being a spiraled fracture of the fibula.

In teh woods, if you suspect a break, splint it with whatever you've got, then find a way to make a crutch. If you are on a major trail and can reasonably expect someone to come by, then arrange for food and shelter and sit tight, but if you are on your own, check your maps and start getting yourself the hell out. Be aware that the shortest distance between two points in the mountains is usually the steepest, better to find something with a more gentle grade unless you have scads and scads of rope to set up workable belays. You don't descend the AT from Wildcat ridge to Pinkham Notch with a broken leg, you work around to a more gradual trail.

Use common sense. Don't waste people's effort and money coming out to rescue you for a twisted ankle or blister. BUT>>> No one wants you dying out there (except perhaps your ex-wife if you've got one), so no one is going to resent you using a cell phone to get help..not anyone that really matters at least. Anyone who doesn't mind you dying out there if help could have been brought in is a worthless misanthrope whose opinion is not worth listening to. So bring your little cell phone and keep the thing turned off and packed away in a padded location except in dire emergency. If it works and saves your life, all the philosophizing will stop meaning much to you. If you can use your phone to help save someone else's life, you'll count it probably that much more worthwhile to carry the little bit of extra weight.

Communications are about the most useful tool you can have in modern society. They are a force multiplier par excellence allowing you to get more resources on site faster, get expert voice instruction on how to deal with your situation, or just get help calming down and getting back into a mindset where something useful can be done. No cell phones are not 100% reliable in the backcountry, or anywhere for that matter, but a 25% chance of being able to call out for help is better than no chance at all.

Survival whistles are also a good idea and should be attached either to your body or to your pack. A loud whistle can be heard from miles away with minimal effort on your part. In a pinch it can also be used defensively against an attacker. Blow one of those directly in his ear and he's gonna suffer for a second or two..perhaps long enough for you to turn the tables on him or escape.

You can do a lot when you have no other choices, but your mind must be flexible and you must be able to improvise and adapt yourself and your tools. This is why I believe that there are certain items you can't afford to skimp weight on, one of these is a good multi-function tool with a functional saw blade. A small saw blade and a sharp knife of useable length will let you make quite a few things...it may take a while, but it'll get the job done. Full-sized Swiss Army knives become weight well allocated when something unexpected happens.

K-Man
12-02-2005, 16:31
There are too many yahoos out there that call 911 over stupid, they have a blister on their foot, their feet hurt, etc.



I was hiking in Ringwood SP in Northern NJ a couple of weeks ago. Technically the park closes at dark and It was almost dark. I was heading back to the car which was about 2 miles away when two cop cars came driving up the dirt road I was on. The second car stopped and asked me if I had seen anyone lost and I told them no. What a stupid question...anyway, they pass me by and I keep walking and up ahead about 100 yards they were stopped. When I got closer I saw that they had found a family that had apparently called 911 after being "lost". They had absolutely no idea where they were. No backpacks, no compass, no maps, no water. The kids were less than 10 years old. I just thought it was funny that this guy took his family out and got totally lost in an extremely well travelled (over travelled) park and used our tax dollars to be "rescued". I kept walking right past them heading back onto the trail off the dirt road and they stopped me and asked if I wanted a ride because it was dark and there were rocks I could trip on. I told them that I knew where I was going and that I had a light. I don't think the father felt too good after that one.

Now back to the topic of getting injured on the trail. Does anyone know where I could take a class in northern NJ about wilderness first aid?

Mouse
12-02-2005, 17:41
The tibia alone will definitely bear weight if the fibula is broken, but not without significant to extreme pain as the ends of the fibula waggle around. Been there and done that. I walked off a drop zone at Ft. Benning with a broken fibula, carrying my jump gear.

Hey, that doesn't count! Those Sgts could get a quadraplegic to walk! I remember blowing my knee out at Air Assault School. All it took was a hard glare and acid comment from the instructor to get me to get up, finish the obstacle course then go on a three mile run. I was on crutches for weeks and it was two months before I could straighten my knee again.

Doctari
12-03-2005, 00:23
Worst case scenario, not (immediatly) life threatning, I would do the best to fix the problem (splint the leg/arm, stop the bleeding, etc.) & get to help. On the AT, probably try to get to a shelter or road crossing. I bet I would be out of pain killers by the time I was found :)

FX leg or arm. Splint: a stick, sturdy & smooth, probably affixed with Duct tape, maybe padded a bit with whatever. Check circulation often. Avoid placing undo strain on injured apendage. My hiking poles make functional if uncomfortable crutches.

Sprained (broke?) ankle: splint with duct tape, probably with the shoe (at least a sock) on. Limp out.

Sprained (broke?) wrist: splint with duct tape, keep hiking, get to doctor as soon as possible.

As to other stuff, my plan is to "Play it by ear" so to speak.

Doctari.

fiddlehead
12-03-2005, 18:15
T
Survival whistles are also a good idea and should be attached either to your body or to your pack. A loud whistle can be heard from miles away with minimal effort on your part. In a pinch it can also be used defensively against an attacker. Blow one of those directly in his ear and he's gonna suffer for a second or two..perhaps long enough for you to turn the tables on him or escape.

s.

Iceman, i agree with most of what you're saying here. Most injuries are not going to kill you because you can't get help or crawl to a road. (especially on the AT)
But i must disagree with the whistle thing. I've been with people who said they blew the whistle for a long time and it turned out we were only about 100-200 yds apart, yet we never heard it. I think whistles are useless on the trail. It's better to take care of yourself.

For the other guy who said Wolf should carry a cell phone i think:
if a man has hiked 23,000 miles and hasn't needed one, why should he start carrying something that YOU think he should?
And worry about: charging it, signal strength, keeping it dry, paying the bill, etc.

Nean
12-03-2005, 18:21
Not to mention that a cell phone would double the weight in Wolfs pack!;)

Wolf - 23000
12-05-2005, 17:05
I don't understand this mentality at all. There is a big difference between "accepting the fact that naturally things are going to happen" and preparing for them. If you don't think a cellphone is going to be useful, fine, leave it at home. But this fatalistic, I-won't-bring-it-because-if-I-get-hurt-I-was-meant-to-die sentiment makes no sense

I accept that it's going to rain but that doesn't stop me from bringing a rain jacket. I accept that it might get cold but that doesn't stop me from bringing warm gloves. I accept that I might get hurt off trail but that doesn't stop me from bringing a whistle. I accept that I might get lost and lose my sense of direction but that does not stop me from bringing a compass and a map.


JoeHiker as you said in your example you accept that itís going to rain, you donít expect someone else to bring a rain jacket for you; YOU pack a rain jacket. If it is cold out, YOU bring your own gloves. It is not fair to expect others to carry these things for you, it is your responsibility. On the same lines if you get hurt, it not fair to expect someone else to risk their safety or life to get you out. It is YOUR responsibility to get yourself out.

Anyone who believes in carrying a cell phone for ďsafetyĒ I like to ask how many of them would be willing to be the person doing the rescue? In my times I was hurt on the trail for example I was had a tree fall down on top of me during a very bad ice storm during the winter of 1994. Trees were falling everywhere. After it was over, it looked like the forest fell down. Is it fair to expect someone to else to risk getting hurt come after me?

Or when my feet were frozen. At the base of the Jay Peak, the temperature was -25 below with fresh snow that just fell. Would it be fair to expect others to search the mountains looking for me? Of course not. It would not have been safe. I put myself there and it was up to me to get myself out.

It is really easy to say ďyes the rescuer should risk their safety and go outĒ from the comfort of your own home but how many of the same people saying yes would be willing to go themselves.

Wolf

Youngblood
12-05-2005, 17:45
Wolf, you are not always in a position where you have to have someone haul you off the trail miles from anywhere. Sometimes you might arrange to be picked up at a road crossing. I have done that a couple of times, once because of sickness and another because I found the trail to be too dangerous to continue my hike and it was best to get a ride out than try to backtrack. Carrying a cell phone makes good sense for my hikes. I've even had times where a hiking partner had to call (and leave a message because we don't leave them on) and let me know he had a problem and what the change in plans where as he was behind me and wasn't going to be able to met up with me. Cell phones can give you options that you don't have without them.

icemanat95
12-05-2005, 17:56
I've been the one doing the rescue. Some people consider rescue duty to be a service done for the hiking community and the mountains. At the very least its neighborly.

The only time I've ever heard a rescue volunteer complain about getting called out for a rescue was when it was utterly un-necessary (i.e. the person could have walked out on their own and was just being willfully helpless). They might get a bit miffed when someone got into trouble as a result of being woefully unprepared, but no rescuer I've ever spoken to or worked with has ever regretted the service.

The cell phone genie is out of the bottle, and it ain't going back in, so learn to cope or start bushwhacking. THe only real response here is education. trail users need to be educated to take responsibility for themselves and they need to be told what is and is not a justification for calling in a rescue as well as what alternatives may exist such as being talked out or talked through basic first aid and a self-rescue.

Obviously Wolf and others can make their own decisions, but they should not try to impose their particular choices on others. Clearly people need to be responsible for themselves out there, but so long as the backcountry is relatively accessible, unprepared people are going to go out, and no-one really wants them dying out there.

RockyTrail
12-05-2005, 18:06
It is really easy to say ďyes the rescuer should risk their safety and go outĒ from the comfort of your own home but how many of the same people saying yes would be willing to go themselves.

Wolf
Wolf-23000, I applaud your sense of self-reponsibility, the world certainly needs more people to be responsible for themselves. It's becoming a rarity. But I think you're being too hard on yourself, especially if you've taken reasonable precautions that reasonable hikers would take.

If you're talking about being unfair to rescuers who are are on the job and must go out just because it's their job, then maybe you have a bit of a point...but by and large, most all the rescuers I've known would go out after you anyway even if it's not their shift. I know I would. Some folks just like helping others, helping both the competent and the hapless who stumble into trouble. Happy hiking...

Wolf - 23000
12-05-2005, 20:01
Most rescuers I’m sure would go out of their way to help someone. It is a nice thought of people helping out others but it also leaving a false sense of ones own personal responsibility to keep them selves safe and it is very costly. That is tax money that could be better used protecting the wilderness rather than saving some irresponsible.

Iceman: “Obviously Wolf and others can make their own decisions, but they should not try to impose their particular choices on others. Clearly people need to be responsible for themselves out there, but so long as the backcountry is relatively accessible, unprepared people are going to go out, and no-one really wants them dying out there.”

Iceman when taxpayers’ money is spent picking up the bill to do a rescue to someone unprepared, as a taxpayer I think that does give me the right to express how I feel the money should be used. Most rescues are not life or death, and often involved saving someone nothing more than a bad night.

Wolf

smokymtnsteve
12-05-2005, 20:44
PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!

A venturesome minority will always be eager to set off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American"

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

icemanat95
12-05-2005, 20:48
Gospel???

The only Gospels I am aware of were written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.


I'd bet Edward Abbey would have been real uncomfortable up on that pedastal you've stuck him on.

icemanat95
12-05-2005, 20:51
Most rescuers Iím sure would go out of their way to help someone. It is a nice thought of people helping out others but it also leaving a false sense of ones own personal responsibility to keep them selves safe and it is very costly. That is tax money that could be better used protecting the wilderness rather than saving some irresponsible.

Iceman: ďObviously Wolf and others can make their own decisions, but they should not try to impose their particular choices on others. Clearly people need to be responsible for themselves out there, but so long as the backcountry is relatively accessible, unprepared people are going to go out, and no-one really wants them dying out there.Ē

Iceman when taxpayersí money is spent picking up the bill to do a rescue to someone unprepared, as a taxpayer I think that does give me the right to express how I feel the money should be used. Most rescues are not life or death, and often involved saving someone nothing more than a bad night.

Wolf

unless a helicopter gets involved (National Guard contribution), the majority of resources ina White Mountains rescue are volunteer or grass roots contributions, and a rescue service fee has been instituted to recover costs from rescuees who shouldn't have needed it.

You wanna see monumental costs? Picture the lawsuits against the parks and forest service should someone die after being refused a rescue... The cost of defending the suit would probably cover several rescues, forget about damages should the plaintiff win.

smokymtnsteve
12-05-2005, 20:53
Gospel???

The only Gospels I am aware of were written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.


I'd bet Edward Abbey would have been real uncomfortable up on that pedastal you've stuck him on.


well now U are aware of some more gospels ...the Gospel of Abbey!

smokymtnsteve
12-05-2005, 21:12
Gospel???

The only Gospels I am aware of were written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.


I'd bet Edward Abbey would have been real uncomfortable up on that pedastal you've stuck him on.Quick definitions (gospel)


Gospel defined,

noun: a doctrine that is believed to be of great importance (Example: "Newton's writings were gospel for those who followed)

MedicineMan
12-06-2005, 03:26
just talked with 2 EMTs, a nightly interaction here in the hospital.
I asked them if they 'like' going to a crash scene. They said that is what they train for, one even said 'live' for.
Ask a Marine if he wants to go to Iraq/wherever and kill, he might tell you that is his job, what he has been trained to do.
I'm thinking the search and rescue folks like doing what it is they train for, hell they even practice it for fun--not that I want to give them the opportunity but i'm sure they want something serious...and that's my rub in calling them if i'm not on the border of death/life, because i would hate that i've got them on a run when they could have been running to something even more life threatening. That's where judgement comes in. I've hobbled 5 miles with a foot and never thought of calling anyone because I knew I would live regardless. If you have good judgement and think death is just right around the corner please call, like retrieving is inbred into a Springer Spaniel the desire is truly there for the S/R teams to get you out. Dont worry about the money either, you are paying taxes arent you?

Sound judgement and a suggestion: consider keeping a very small supply of Toradol in your kit-you'll need an rx to cover it but here's the deal, you can get hurt so bad that pain clouds your mind yet in the woods you dont want something that will make you dopy {like an opiate (MS Contin,Oxycontin,Tylox,etc)}...Toradol is a super powerful NSAID that shouldnt be used for long (we limit it to 48hours here in the hospital), it is close to morphine in its ability to relieve pain but doesnt suppress respiration (so we use it in post op patients who cant have opiates because of the resp. depression)..so for the two days (worse case maybe?) it might take to get out on your own you can remove pain from the thinking equation....well not all pain. Me personally, I've dealt with 3 kidney stones and a gall bladder full of stones and relied solely on this drug (until surgery). No i dont work for whoever makes it and it is available in generic....dont consider toradol if:

treatment of peri-operative pain in setting of coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery
hypersensitivity to ketorolac
patients who have experienced asthma, urticaria, or allergic-type reactions after taking aspirin or other nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory agents; severe, even fatal, anaphylactic-like reactions have been reported

Precautions
increased risk of serious cardiovascular thrombotic events, myocardial infarction, and stroke; risk may increase with duration of use and in patients at risk for cardiovascular disease
increased risk of serious gastrointestinal adverse events (bleeding, ulceration, perforation of stomach or intestines) that can occur at any time and without warning; higher risk in elderly or debilitated patients
asthma
avoid in late pregnancy; may cause premature closure of the ductus arteriosus
concomitant use of topical steroids (ophthalmic ketorolac)
dehydration
elderly
history of coagulation defects
history of GI ulceration, bleeding or perforation
history of liver dysfunction
history of renal disease
hypertension, fluid retention, or CHF
may increase bleeding of ocular tissue (ophthalmic ketorolac)
preexisting anemia
use ophthalmic ketorolac with caution in patients with complicated ocular surgeries, corneal denervation, corneal epithelial defects, diabetes, ocular surface disease, rheumatoid arthritis, or repeat ocular surgeries

Wolf - 23000
12-06-2005, 15:13
I can picture the lawsuit, “Family sue Park Service for not properly telling son/daughter/father/mother how to be in the woods.” Or “Park Service sued for not packing hikers backpack.” Or “Park Service sued for not risking volunteers’ safety.” Or “Family refused to attempt rescue themselves but sues Park Service instead.”

I could go on but it just proves my point that some people are simple not willing to accept responsibility for their own actions. No one put them there except for them. It should not be put on as a responsibility of volunteers or the Park Service to get them out.

As for cost, the figure that comes to mind is $400.00 per/hour for a helicopter ride + salaries of the park rangers coordinating the rescue or on foot + equipment needed to handle the rescue + the administration fees to collect any fines. It not cheap and what the park service actually collects is relatively small to what they pay out.

I know some do “live” for going out there to rescue others but what about those that have gotten themselves hurt or even killed doing so. Many of our fellow Army or Marines soldiers “live” to go fight in places like Iraq but have gotten themselves killed doing so. I understand those that fight and may die for our country or freedom but what I don’t understand is someone dying for someone else carelessness.

Wolf