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saimyoji
11-26-2005, 13:53
Which would you rather meet on the trail:

An irresponsible hiker with a cell phone OR

An irresponsible hiker with a dog. :confused:

DavidNH
11-26-2005, 13:57
wow that's a toughee. I really hate'em both. But i will probably go with the irresposnable hiker with a cell phone cause he will never shut up. The hiker with the dog is also annoying but eventually the dog will go away or go to sleep. perhaps I will even help the dog go to sleep.... nudge nudge..


davidnh

Mouse
11-26-2005, 13:57
{Coming out of the Rhodademdrom thicket she found herself confronted by two hikers. One had a small King Charles terrier, tail wagging and ready to lick her. The other had a fearsome cellphone, teeth bared, ring-tone snarling ferociously as it struggled to get loose and attack!}

jackiebolen
11-26-2005, 13:59
I would say I'd less rather meet a dog. The cellphone can really do me no harm except prevent me from getting a bit of sleep while the dog could bite or slobber all over me, etc, etc.

prozac
11-26-2005, 14:22
Both. With any luck the dog will bite the a**hole with the cellphone.

Nightwalker
11-26-2005, 14:48
Which would you rather meet on the trail:

An irresponsible hiker with a cell phone OR

An irresponsible hiker with a dog.
A hiker with no DogPhone hangups!

:D

TooTall
11-26-2005, 15:04
I'd say an irresponsible dog with a cell phone would be the worst.

Too Tall Paul

Spartan Hiker
11-26-2005, 16:17
Qualify the term irresponsible first.

Mouse
11-26-2005, 16:49
You know, the sort of dog that doesn't tell anyone where they are going, brings nothing but jeans and cotton sweatshirts in the Whites, never bearbags, leaves crumbs in the shelters, skips out on chores at hostels, leaves trash, does laundry in the springs........:dance

FatMan
11-26-2005, 17:00
Been awhile since we've had a good hate the dogs on the trail thread. Thank goodness you got one started. The anti-dog crowd just can't stand a vacuum.:bse

fiddlehead
11-26-2005, 17:27
All this hate goin on here, some of you need to go hike somewhere in the wilderness. Not much to hate there

saimyoji
11-26-2005, 17:54
'Cept dogs and cell phones. :eek:

SGT Rock
11-26-2005, 17:55
If I had to take one, it would have to be the cell phone guy. At least I can tell him he is an ******* and he will understand the language.

smokymtnsteve
11-26-2005, 17:59
If I had to take one, it would have to be the cell phone guy. At least I can tell him he is an ******* and he will understand the language.

well yes..but U would need to have a cell phone yourself..so U could call him and tell him :datz

Uncle Silly
11-26-2005, 20:37
I'm amused by the amount of anti-dog vehemence around here. I never saw that on the trail with my dog. Do y'all actually ever get out and hike?

SGT Rock
11-26-2005, 20:42
I'm amused by the amount of anti-dog vehemence around here. I never saw that on the trail with my dog. Do y'all actually ever get out and hike?
Actually yes. And maintenance, and a few other things. Honestly, I'm probably too nice to folks on the trail with dogs, even when their dog is trying to attack my 7 year old son while the ******* owner was no where in sight. Of course he was polite enough to tell me to chill out as his three dogs were circling us with raised hackles and bared teeth. Must have been my fault for minding my own buisness or something.

But being the polite non-dog hiker I just said it was cool.

Gosh, we anti-dog people are real jerks, we only act like asses on the internet while other do it on the trail without ever realizing it.

Mouse
11-26-2005, 20:55
I was just describing irresponsible dogs. I have nothing at all against them or the dogs who bring proper clothing and equipment to the Whites, pick up trash, keep springs clean, maintain trails.......

I even like the dogs who are furry and wag their tails! :sun

smokymtnsteve
11-26-2005, 21:05
Actually yes. And maintenance, and a few other things. Honestly, I'm probably too nice to folks on the trail with dogs, even when their dog is trying to attack my 7 year old son while the ******* owner was no where in site. Of course he was polite enough to tell me to chill out as his three dogs were circling us with raised hackles and bared teeth. Must have been my fault for minding my own buisness or something.

But being the polite non-dog hiker I just said it was cool.

Gosh, we anti-dog people are real jerks, we only act like asses on the internet while other do it on the trail without ever realizing it.

maybe U should have had ole Moose and Tsavo with U..

dem two ole sled dogs could certainly handle three ole lowland dogs and the owner too ;)

Nightwalker
11-26-2005, 21:32
Been awhile since we've had a good hate the dogs on the trail thread. Thank goodness you got one started. The anti-dog crowd just can't stand a vacuum.:bse
Yeah, and if we had a dog named Jack Warren, we'd really be having some fun!

smokymtnsteve
11-26-2005, 21:35
Yeah, and if we had a dog named Jack Warren, we'd really be having some fun!

LEGAL SAFE AND CLEAN

or

ILLEGAL, DIRTY AND MORE DANGEROUS

Nightwalker
11-26-2005, 21:35
I'm amused by the amount of anti-dog vehemence around here. I never saw that on the trail with my dog. Do y'all actually ever get out and hike?
You never saw it on the trail because people were polite to your face. Trust me on this one: they griped lots about it.

And yep, you bet, I get out and hike lots.

saimyoji
11-26-2005, 23:50
My hiking range is limited, but the miles are there. I've had bad experiences with dogs on the trail, as well as with cell phone users. I actually edited my original question to include the terms irresponsible because I know there are responsible dogs/owners out there, as there are responsible people with cell phones.

Someone asked me to define responsible. Well, that all depends on what your definition of define is.:D:D:D

But seriosuly folks, I've started at least one dog thread here on WB as a direct result of a near attack. I would think that dog attacks are a bigger problem than bear/racoon/chipmunk/porcupine/hillbilly attacks. Someone prove me wrong.

There's a 60's FlashBack program on PBS right now. Pretty cool.

The Old Fhart
11-27-2005, 00:19
saimyoji-"I would think that dog attacks are a bigger problem than bear/racoon/chipmunk/porcupine/hillbilly attacks. "Hillbillys, hell, we've got some pretty mean swamp yankees in NH that I wouldn't want to cross! :eek:

Skyline
11-27-2005, 00:23
To put a positive spin on this:

...a RESPONSIBLE hiker/dog owner keeps Fido on a leash, doesn't sleep in shelters with Fido, and camps well away from others if his dawg is prone to barking while people want to sleep.

...a RESPONSIBLE hiker/cell phone user always has the ringer turned off, and makes outgoing calls well away from the earshot of other hikers.



I like well-behaved dogs (and most I've encountered in the woods with hikers have been), I like responsible dog owners, and I couldn't care less who carries the extra weight of a cell phone so long as I don't have to hear it or its owner using it.

Come to think of it, the only real problem I ever had with dogs was with a pack of presumably local canines that was running wild near the Priest. Can't really blame hikers for that!

Nightwalker
11-27-2005, 00:49
You never saw it on the trail because people were polite to your face. Trust me on this one: they griped lots about it.

And yep, you bet, I get out and hike lots.
BTW. I wasn't saying that I'm anti dog-on-the-trail. Just saying that I gaurantee that there's been griping.

I'm anti dogs-that-shouldn't-be-there on the trail, however. This year, I saw a hiker with a toy breed, forgot which breed. Having to do crazy stuff early on to keep the dog going, and wondering why the pup wasn't happy. Big surprise here: Most dogs don't like LD hiking as much as their owners might think. This is an observation from long experience.

Seems like water dogs do best--Labs, retrievers, etc.--Followed by hounds and working dogs. I even saw a happy 15-inch beagle on a section. I've seen a lot more unhappies, though.

My Dog likes to hike, but that's probably because I've only taken her on day-hikes and very solitary weekenders. She's half Blue Tick and half 15-inch Beagle, and could probably handle and enjoy it. She gets bored easy, though, and I'm not gonna take her outta her happy yard-life just to keep me company!

YMMV, HYOH, This End Up, etc., etc.

Sly
11-27-2005, 01:33
I'd rather the dog than either irresponsible hiker. The cellphone can go to hell. ;)

saimyoji
11-27-2005, 01:40
Okay:

An irresponsible hiker with a dog...

An irresponsible hiker with a cell phone...

An irresponsible internet hiker with too much time on their hands and little sense of netiquette (internegators?)

Seeker
11-27-2005, 02:28
i'd find an irresponsible dog owner more irritating than a cell phone user, just like i find cigarette smoking more irritating than tobacco chewing...

an irresponsible dog owner is likely to subject me to unavoidable and unwanted dog behavior for as long as he's around. the cell phone user is most likely a short-term irritant... (s)he will eventually shut up, especially if i ask him to borrow it, ask him to shut up, or break into his pack at night and steal his battery...

secondhand smoke will get into my lungs. used tobacco juice, while by no means 'pleasant', just means i have to watch my feet or my butt... sort of like the saying about "peeing" and "non-peeing" areas of the same pool... better to just have everyone go into the restroom... if they 'miss', it's still better than going in the pool...

tiamalle
11-27-2005, 04:48
Which would you rather meet on the trail:

An irresponsible hiker with a cell phone OR

An irresponsible hiker with a dog. :confused: Aye this sh-t is a trick question.Be kind try something else:bse

middle to middle
11-27-2005, 05:47
Several times I have encountered dogs chasing deer. Climing a steep slope, you hear a ruckus, then a deer at full gallop coming down appears with toung hanging out, then a long silence, then a pack of dogs chasing the poor deer. Dogs seemingly loving the hunt. Deer running for its life. Law of the jungle, except the dogs are strays or just on loose from a well fed home having fun.

Two Speed
11-27-2005, 09:38
Actually yes. And maintenance, and a few other things. Honestly, I'm probably too nice to folks on the trail with dogs, even when their dog is trying to attack my 7 year old son while the ******* owner was no where in site. Of course he was polite enough to tell me to chill out as his three dogs were circling us with raised hackles and bared teeth . . .Sgt, speaking as someone who does take their dog hiking I have to say that kind of behavior is precisely what I don't like when I see it, and I don't blame you for being furious with that individual. However, I'd like to make a few points:
1) Seeing as you haven't met me in person, nor have you met my dog, could you please refrain from calling all hikers with dogs "********?" I may well be one, but I resent it when people smear me with that brush before they've even met me. Meet me, THEN call me an a**hole if that's your honest opinion. I probably won't like it, but if that's the way it is, well, that's the way it is.
2) I am painfully aware that there are hikers that don't do well with their dogs. There are also hikers WITHOUT dogs whose behavior leaves much to be desired. 'Nuff said.
3) While I will not allow your opinion to determine whether or not Barney accompanies me on the trail I do my best to train Barney in such a fashion that he isn't a pain in the neck to other hikers. When a dog is poorly behaved I view that as a reflection of the owner, not the dog's fault. Unfortunately there have been times when my "reflection" wasn't up to the standard I'd like to achieve, but I'm working on that.

In order to defuse this a little bit, I'd like to help write an article on the subject. Before all the dog hikers get the idea I'm about to tee off on everyone who raises an objection to dogs, please be advised that I firmly believe that having a dog on the trail as a very large responsibility on the part of the hiker and DO NOT like it when I see an animal that's poorly behaved or abused. Sgt., if you'd like to take me up on that shoot me a PM and let's get started on something constructive.

To get back on thread: Given my choice, I prefer an irresponsible hiker with a cell phone. Stomping a cell phone into the dust just seems like a lesser evil than killing a dog (and possibly the anal pore who failed to train their animal).

Jaybird
11-27-2005, 10:22
Which would you rather meet on the trail:
An irresponsible hiker with a cell phone OR
An irresponsible hiker with a dog. :confused:



i pick the cell-phone w/ hiker...

sometimes the dog is too heavy to toss over a cliff!


(just kidding, of course!):D

SGT Rock
11-27-2005, 11:04
In order to defuse this a little bit, I'd like to help write an article on the subject. Before all the dog hikers get the idea I'm about to tee off on everyone who raises an objection to dogs, please be advised that I firmly believe that having a dog on the trail as a very large responsibility on the part of the hiker and DO NOT like it when I see an animal that's poorly behaved or abused. Sgt., if you'd like to take me up on that shoot me a PM and let's get started on something constructive.

You may submitt an article any time you wish to the articles section. An article about anything will be considered. Just remember that all articles go through a suggestion from the group process and there may very well be people that want you to include the first thought should always be to not bring the dog in the first place.

Two Speed
11-27-2005, 11:13
I'll accept that challenge.

Let me finish a job application I've been screwing with and I'll get busy.

neo
11-27-2005, 21:55
I'd say an irresponsible dog with a cell phone would be the worst.

Too Tall Paul
i agree with this 100% lol:cool: neo

weary
11-27-2005, 22:45
Actually yes. And maintenance, and a few other things. Honestly, I'm probably too nice to folks on the trail with dogs, even when their dog is trying to attack my 7 year old son while the ******* owner was no where in site. Of course he was polite enough to tell me to chill out as his three dogs were circling us with raised hackles and bared teeth. Must have been my fault for minding my own buisness or something.

But being the polite non-dog hiker I just said it was cool.

Gosh, we anti-dog people are real jerks, we only act like asses on the internet while other do it on the trail without ever realizing it.
Truer words were never spoken.

Tractor
11-27-2005, 22:50
An irresponsible dog owner, with or without the dog, over the irresponsible cell phone user, with or without a dog. I've never been slobbered on or pee'd on by a cell phone. Never had to clean cell phone shet from my boot. Usually see cell phones like airplanes. Can't seem to shake 'em but don't let 'em bother me as long as they are a long way away.........

A responsible dog owner with dog is never a problem and most have been such!

Tin Man
11-27-2005, 23:41
An irresponsible dog owner, with or without the dog, over the irresponsible cell phone user, with or without a dog. I've never been slobbered on or pee'd on by a cell phone. Never had to clean cell phone shet from my boot. Usually see cell phones like airplanes. Can't seem to shake 'em but don't let 'em bother me as long as they are a long way away.........

That about sums it up.


A responsible dog owner with dog is never a problem and most have been such!

Unfortunately, I have only run into unleashed dogs that tear around the place, sniffing in private spaces, slobbering and peeing too close for comfort. I like dogs, but don't think they have a place on the trail. I hike to get away from it all and for me that includes domesticated animals. I prefer encounters with wild animals such as deer with ticks, porcupine in search of salt, shelter mice, rabid raccoons, rattle snakes, hungry bears, and a bull moose in rutting season. :datz

Husko
11-28-2005, 00:05
I just don't get it. About the dog's and all. I mean, my rather large dog is such a nice fella, I've had to rescue him so many times from other dog's that came up and fought him. In fact one time, I actually had to tackle one much bigger dog that picked a fight with him.

It took a while for my dog tacoda to realize that this guy wasn't fooling around and as soon as I heard ol' tacoda start for his neck and with a loud growl that stood the hairs on the back of my neck straight up, I dove into the brawl heh. It only took about a minute before this BIG OL' mean dog was acting as if I were his mother. I laid on him for about a minute or two and let him up. He began to kiss my face and wag his tale.

I walked away many times from other dogs doing this to my dog WHO WAS ON A LEASH. And I might add, I walked away with no ill feelings towards the dog. It's just a dog.

Just hope I don't meet you on the trail with a cell phone. That's a whole different matter entirely :)

Husko
11-28-2005, 00:06
Oh here is my dog tacoda

http://www.husko.net/csharp/Tacoda/Photos/tabid/60/Default.aspx

He is much more polite than any human I've met. In fact, I'm sure some of you could take a lesson from him.

saimyoji
11-28-2005, 00:13
Earlier I thought it would be fun/ a little sarcastic to bring up the dog/cell phone thing...on second thought...not so fun. People take it way too seriously. Note that I threw a shot at myself "adding a third option: irresponsible internet hiker with too much time..." which no one noticed.

I hope all dog/cell phone owners are respectful, as we all should be, but know that there will always be some....

Enjoy your dog, enjoy your cell phone. Just don't let your enjoyment piss someone else off.

Oh yeah, and don't let your internet postings piss other people off too, if you can avoid it.

SteveJ
11-28-2005, 00:25
sigh....

ya know, all hikers with dogs really aren't axxholes....

my sibe thinks everyone is her friend, and everyone wants her to jump up on them to get a lick in the face. I keep her on lead at all times because of this (I've tried and tried to break her of it, and it just can't be done!) and the fact that sibes have the reputation of being runners who you can't trust off lead. Whenever we meet anyone on the trail I shorten her flexi-lead and step aside to let them walk by. She usually is anxious to keep walking, but occassionally is curious about whoever we meet....at most this means she looks up and gives them a lick on the hand as they walk by....(besides, she's always curious as to what you had for lunch!)

I bring her on all my hikes because she's my hiking buddy. She loves hiking. I was getting ready for a hike a couple of weeks ago and got her lead out of the garage at 1 in the morning. She went from a dead sleep on the couch to jumping around grinning when she heard the chain rattle. Anytime I leave the house, I can't put my shoes on because she's all over me, ready to go! If I get the backpacking gear out, she's beside herself! She doesn't have other plans, or other committments. If I can get away for a weekend, she's there, ready to go!

She always forgives me when I'm in a bad mood and jerk her around or talk rudely. She's always excited about spending time with me on the trail, and has never complained about the hike, the rain, the temp, the steepness of the trail, the food, or the fact that we're patiently walking along with my 10 y.o. As a matter of fact, she doesn't mind when I hook her to his pack belt to help pull him up the hills....

She carries all her own stuff, including a little of mine, if I think about putting it in her pack.

She's always cheerful, with a grin and a lick. Of course, she's also always a thief! Leave good food... strike that... any food within reach, and it's hers.... another good reason to keep her on lead!

I really can't envision a more ideal hiking partner.

Can the guy with the cell phone!

saimyoji
11-28-2005, 00:44
Some people with cell phones are bearable. Here's one example: the text messager. I can find no fault with the text messager who spends their time staring at the tiny screen ignoring the wonderful world around them. I once saw someone so engrossed in their text messaging that they tripped, fell down and broke their phone. Actually, this happens alot in Japan. Some people are so lost in text-mail that they miss their train stops.:o

justusryans
11-28-2005, 08:47
[quote=saimyoji I once saw someone so engrossed in their text messaging that they tripped, fell down and broke their phone. Actually, this happens alot in Japan. Some people are so lost in text-mail that they miss their train stops.:o[/quote]

Good:banana

Seeker
11-28-2005, 11:44
i read in the paper the other day that it's starting to cause more traffic accidents too... guess that ranks up there with the folks who watch movies on portable/laptop dvd players while driving... at least if they trip on the trail, i'm not likely to be hit...

JoeHiker
11-28-2005, 15:56
I'd rather meet the guy with the phone. The phone can't bite me.

I don't get the "just hope I don't meet you with a cellpone" mentality. The hyperbole and oversensitivity I see here regarding cellphones is ridiculous

Jack Tarlin
11-28-2005, 16:08
Two days ago, a cyclist was struck and killed in Colorado by a teen who was text messaging while driving, so yeah, this can indeed happen.

smokymtnsteve
11-28-2005, 16:11
well ur not suppossed to drive or ride a bike on the AT.

SGT Rock
11-28-2005, 16:35
If the question is which would you rather meet on the road, it would have to be inconsiderate dog driver. At least his dog just barks at you from the back of his truck as he drives by. I almost got killed this last weekend by a jerk driver that tried to merge into my lane through my car - because she was too busy talking on her cell phone while driving to look to her left before she started to merge.

People who talk on the phone while they drive should be required to have one of those stickers "How is my driving? Call me and tell me at 555-1212"

That would be a hoot.

Uncle Silly
11-28-2005, 16:43
Earlier I thought it would be fun/ a little sarcastic to bring up the dog/cell phone thing...on second thought...not so fun. People take it way too seriously. Note that I threw a shot at myself "adding a third option: irresponsible internet hiker with too much time..." which no one noticed.

I hope all dog/cell phone owners are respectful, as we all should be, but know that there will always be some....

Enjoy your dog, enjoy your cell phone. Just don't let your enjoyment piss someone else off.

Oh yeah, and don't let your internet postings piss other people off too, if you can avoid it.


And don't worry too much when your someone takes offense at your internet posting or whatever cellphone / dog / alcohol / stereo system you bring to the trail. Some folks take things way too seriously and you can't prevent that. Post yer own post, hike yer own hike. Try not to piss anyone off, but if someone insists on taking offense, well.... let it be.

hammock engineer
11-28-2005, 16:44
[quote=SGT Rock]People who talk on the phone while they drive should be required to have one of those stickers "How is my driving? Call me and tell me at 555-1212"quote]

I have often thought that everyone needs one of these stickers. Think about how much better you would drive if you got a phone call everytime you cut someone off, or braked for no reason what so ever.

hammock engineer
11-28-2005, 16:47
I would also rather meet the cell phone user. At least it is his fault. I have nothing against dogs, just their owners who do not take responsibilty for their pets. Then look at me like it was my fault whenever their dog bothers me.

prozac
11-28-2005, 20:26
Cellphones on the road scare the hell out me. If anything ever makes me sell my bike it will be soccor moms with cellphones.
On to dogs. I have had dogs my whole life, and if it came down to my wife or my dog shes outta here. In fact its probably dog, Harley and then wife in that order. I love to meet dogs on the trail as it gives me a canine fix when I start missing my Lab.
That being said, fully 90% of the dogs I meet on the trail have no right to be out there. A large percentage are owned by dayhikers and there just seems to be something about a smelly hiker with poles and a large backpack that freaks them out. Your pleas that he doesn't bite and don't worry do little to console me. The trail is usually too narrow to give you a wide berth and you should put him on a short leash and restrain him. Much appreciated.
If your dog is section or thru hiking he is generally just a pain in the ass, you just don't see it and most people are too polite to point it out. He doesn't belong in the shelter under any circumstances. He shouldn't be up my ass begging for food while I'm making dinner. He shouldn't be swimming in my water source. I shouldn't have to worry about stepping in dog *****. Police your pooch. I shouldn't have to worry about your dog tracking mud all over my sleeping bag.
If your dog is thruhiking your probably doing your dog a huge disservice. Most breeds cant do 15 miles a day after day. Dogs suffer from the same ailments we do such as blisters,sore knees, dehydration, hunger, Giardia, Lymes Disease and sickness. The difference is they can't voice their complaints and will loyally follow you to physical breakdown. If you want a pet on the trail get a gerbil or hike with the Goat.
That leaves the 10% who are well trained and a joy to have around. The problem is every dog owner thinks his dog falls in that 10% category.

Husko
11-28-2005, 20:41
Cellphones on the road scare the hell out me. If anything ever makes me sell my bike it will be soccor moms with cellphones.
On to dogs. I have had dogs my whole life, and if it came down to my wife or my dog shes outta here. In fact its probably dog, Harley and then wife in that order. I love to meet dogs on the trail as it gives me a canine fix when I start missing my Lab.
That being said, fully 90% of the dogs I meet on the trail have no right to be out there. A large percentage are owned by dayhikers and there just seems to be something about a smelly hiker with poles and a large backpack that freaks them out. Your pleas that he doesn't bite and don't worry do little to console me. The trail is usually too narrow to give you a wide berth and you should put him on a short leash and restrain him. Much appreciated.
If your dog is section or thru hiking he is generally just a pain in the ass, you just don't see it and most people are too polite to point it out. He doesn't belong in the shelter under any circumstances. He shouldn't be up my ass begging for food while I'm making dinner. He shouldn't be swimming in my water source. I shouldn't have to worry about stepping in dog *****. Police your pooch. I shouldn't have to worry about your dog tracking mud all over my sleeping bag.
If your dog is thruhiking your probably doing your dog a huge disservice. Most breeds cant do 15 miles a day after day. Dogs suffer from the same ailments we do such as blisters,sore knees, dehydration, hunger, Giardia, Lymes Disease and sickness. The difference is they can't voice their complaints and will loyally follow you to physical breakdown. If you want a pet on the trail get a gerbil or hike with the Goat.
That leaves the 10% who are well trained and a joy to have around. The problem is every dog owner thinks his dog falls in that 10% category.

From what I heard, I can expect to step in the **** of other hikers. I can expect to find other hikers that try to mooch food from you. I can expect to find other hikers rinsing their fumunda cheese into the water sources. I can expect to find annoying people in shelters that snore. I can expect to find thieves on the trail. I can expect to find all sorts of silly humans that do things that offend me, bother me, and just plain annoy me. And as in the past, it's always possible to find a murder on the trail.

(sarcastic)

I've heard everyone in this forum complain about the list above,(Except the murders, thankfully.) So why don't all the hikers just stay home so that I won't have to deal with them?

SGT Rock
11-28-2005, 20:45
From what I heard, I can expect to step in the **** of other hikers. I can expect to find other hikers that try to mooch food from you. I can expect to find other hikers rinsing their fumunda cheese into the water sources. I can expect to find annoying people in shelters that snore. I can expect to find thieves on the trail. I can expect to find all sorts of silly humans that do things that offend me, bother me, and just plain annoy me. And as in the past, it's always possible to find a murder on the trail.

(sarcastic)

I've heard everyone in this forum complain about the list above,(Except the murders, thankfully.) So why don't all the hikers just stay home so that I won't have to deal with them?
If that is the way you really think, then why don't you? Please do.

(not sarcasim)

If you think offending others is par for the course then it should be the norm, well we need less hikers that think that way. If you use this sort of logic to rationalize why an obnoxious acting animal should also be on the trail, you hurt all hikers including dog hikers.

Husko
11-28-2005, 20:50
That being said, fully 90% of the dogs I meet on the trail have no right to be out there.

Please...... I'm not sure if i should caterogized that as arrogant, civilised, or just plain ignorant.

"Oh look dad! look at that nice little bear, oh and that pretty bunny, and that little dear that just pooped in the woods just like I did yesterday morning! It's so natural to see the wonders of nature and how they have to poop just like the other 3000 travelers on this trail. And it's so wonderful that I have the opportunity to experience these things in my life time before I return to my 9-5 job. Now, for those damned dogs. they are the breed of Satan!".

Some one please tell me to stop.....

SGT Rock
11-28-2005, 20:56
Please...... I'm not sure if i should caterogized that as arrogant, civilised, or just plain ignorant.

"Oh look dad! look at that nice little bear, oh and that pretty bunny, and that little dear that just pooped in the woods just like I did yesterday morning! It's so natural to see the wonders of nature and how they have to poop just like the other 3000 travelers on this trail. And it's so wonderful that I have the opportunity to experience these things in my life time before I return to my 9-5 job. Now, for those damned dogs. they are the breed of Satan!".

Some one please tell me to stop.....
OK, I'm game. Please stop.

If you really think like this I should hope you are at least behind me on the trail if you plan to surface lay your turds and think that is just par for the course.

Husko
11-28-2005, 20:56
If that is the way you really think, then why don't you? Please do.

(not sarcasim)

If you think offending others is par for the course then it should be the norm, well we need less hikers that think that way. If you use this sort of logic to rationalize why an obnoxious acting animal should also be on the trail, you hurt all hikers including dog hikers.

just simple posts that I have collected from here and other trail sites. Forgive for taking them as facts....

MOWGLI
11-28-2005, 20:57
C'mon Rock. Prozac was sniveling.

smokymtnsteve
11-28-2005, 20:58
If that is the way you really think, then why don't you? Please do.

(not sarcasim)

If you think offending others is par for the course then it should be the norm, well we need less hikers that think that way. If you use this sort of logic to rationalize why an obnoxious acting animal should also be on the trail, you hurt all hikers including dog hikers.

Maybe we should just stick to talking about abortion :rolleyes:

hey frank,,

LEGAL CLEAN AND SAFE


or

ILLEGAL, DIRTY AND MORE DANGEROUS

(Sorry Rock)

SGT Rock
11-28-2005, 21:10
C'mon Rock. Prozac was sniveling.
But you know, he had a point, or a few of them. Think of a dog on the trail as a hiker. Think about typical dog behavior and how, if it were a person, that person would become a trail pariah. Think about how you would like a person that:

1. When they saw another hiker ran up and jumped on them for a big hug - even uninvited ones.

2. Peed on the gear of other hikers to "claim" it as their own.

3. Sat around in camp and begged for everyone else's food.

4. Yelled really loud at other people, strangers, threatening them with bodily harm if they get too close.

5. Dropped trow and **** right in the middle of the trail whenever they felt like it, then walked off and left it there.

6. Jumped on someone else's gear in a shelter and get it dirty and wet. Then maybe even refuse to get off it.

7. Stuck their dirty hands and face in the water sources - think of the places where you have to scoop it out and/or use a hose to get it.

8. Get into physical fights with other hikers over getting into each other's space.

9. Get up in the night and yell out noises in the darkness like an idiot - waking every one up.

10. Ran around in the woods trying to catch and eat every critter in a 500 yard radius.

Probably some others I can't think of. Anyway, it seems that if a hiker displayed just one or two of these on a regular basis, that person's name would be all over the trail as someone to avoid. But there are those that fail to see how their four footed friends actions really are affecting others around them.

smokymtnsteve
11-28-2005, 21:14
#9 that singing is the CALL OF THE WILD...

heck I just love singing with the dogs

SGT Rock
11-28-2005, 21:15
Or interrupting the wet dream. :datz

Two Speed
11-28-2005, 21:33
But you know, he had a point, or a few of them. Think of a dog on the trail as a hiker. Think about typical dog behavior and how, if it were a person, that person would become a trail pariah. Think about how you would like a person that:

1. When they saw another hiker ran up and jumped on them for a big hug - even uninvited ones.

2. Peed on the gear of other hikers to "claim" it as their own.

3. Sat around in camp and begged for everyone else's food.

4. Yelled really loud at other people, strangers, threatening them with bodily harm if they get too close.

5. Dropped trow and **** right in the middle of the trail whenever they felt like it, then walked off and left it there.

6. Jumped on someone else's gear in a shelter and get it dirty and wet. Then maybe even refuse to get off it.

7. Stuck their dirty hands and face in the water sources - think of the places where you have to scoop it out and/or use a hose to get it.

8. Get into physical fights with other hikers over getting into each other's space.

9. Get up in the night and yell out noises in the darkness like an idiot - waking every one up.

10. Ran around in the woods trying to catch and eat every critter in a 500 yard radius.

Probably some others I can't think of. Anyway, it seems that if a hiker displayed just one or two of these on a regular basis, that person's name would be all over the trail as someone to avoid. But there are those that fail to see how their four footed friends actions really are affecting others around them.Thanks, Sarge. I was having trouble getting started on that article and you've given me quite a bit to work with, and possibly the format for part of it. As far as it goes, if you catch my mutt peeing on your gear, attempting to stick his nose in your food or getting on your sleeping bag feel free to thump him one and to bring up to me. Please don't break bones or inflict permanent injury because I will take that the wrong way. I will do my very best to prevent any of the above, I only stay in shelter with Barney when it's just Barney and me, so I don't really expect much of that to come to pass, but if it does I'll make it good.

MOWGLI
11-28-2005, 21:36
Probably some others I can't think of. Anyway, it seems that if a hiker displayed just one or two of these on a regular basis, that person's name would be all over the trail as someone to avoid. But there are those that fail to see how their four footed friends actions really are affecting others around them.


Well, you have a few good points here, but you're not going WillK on us, are you?

SGT Rock
11-28-2005, 21:51
NAw, I ain't going WillK.

And for the record, I love dogs. I would hate to hurt one for any reason.

It is just that there are dog owners out there that say things like: "Bad dog owners should know better. I control my dog" then the later when their dog is chasing the squirls around camp and tracking mud in the shelter off a leash, they are oblivious to it - because they know that they are good dog owners. It seems every dog owner thinks they are the responsible one already, even if their dog displays obviously poor behavior. Then there are the dog owners that have dogs bleeding from their packs, cuts on their feet, shoulder and hip injuries, etc. that the owner keeps on keeping on letting the poor animal suffer. Not to mention the heat that dogs can suffer in. The cold where the dog is freeving, but no sleeping bag for it. Pay attention to many hiking dogs in the rain and you will see misery in their eyes - but owners are sure there dog loves it. What most dogs love is their human owner as a friend and just being with them and getting the attention. You can do that for a dog in your yard, walking in your neighborhood, and a lot of other place. Making your dog come along in a human endevour can be a form of torture for animals that are not built for it, nor have a real interest in it. Dogs will walk themselves to death or disability for a human they love and never speak up until it is too late for you to reverse it.

Just my opinion, but a real responsible dog owner realizes this and leaves their dog home when backpacking. He/she doesn't try to make a square peg fit in a round hole and call it love.

Two Speed
11-28-2005, 22:16
Sarge: Don't know that I agree with you on every point, but I also have seen things I'm not comfortable with either. BTW, I wasn't being sarcastic about using your points from your previous post; they really will be helpful trying to illuminate what aspect of dog's behaviour is honestly offensive to any other rational hiker and I fully intend on trying to incorporate that into what I have going. I ain't the greatest writer in the world but I'm going to do my best.

We disagree about whether dogs should be on the trail. Seeing as we already have cell phones on this thread I'm going to take a chance on muddying the waters by saying I really don't like Leki poles, I prefer a hickory walking stick, but I respect the fact that another hiker is within his rights to use Lekis if they see fit whether or not I like it.

I do understand that Lekis almost never pee on a sleeping bag, or at least I've never seen it.

I believe the whole "dogs on the trail" controversy is based on a lack of respect on both sides of the argument and if I can I'd like to try to get the discussion on a higher plane than some of the other threads I've seen on this subject.

Chip
11-28-2005, 22:19
To put a positive spin on this:

...a RESPONSIBLE hiker/dog owner keeps Fido on a leash, doesn't sleep in shelters with Fido, and camps well away from others if his dawg is prone to barking while people want to sleep.

...a RESPONSIBLE hiker/cell phone user always has the ringer turned off, and makes outgoing calls well away from the earshot of other hikers.



I like well-behaved dogs (and most I've encountered in the woods with hikers have been), I like responsible dog owners, and I couldn't care less who carries the extra weight of a cell phone so long as I don't have to hear it or its owner using it.

Come to think of it, the only real problem I ever had with dogs was with a pack of presumably local canines that was running wild near the Priest. Can't really blame hikers for that!

:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap
Well said Skyline!!! ;)

Chip
11-28-2005, 22:32
NAw, I ain't going WillK.

Just my opinion, but a real responsible dog owner realizes this and leaves their dog home when backpacking. He/she doesn't try to make a square peg fit in a round hole and call it love.

Too bad you feel this way. There are some good dogs and some good owners who know how to hike with dogs. I hope to meet you on the trail one day. Not trying to change your mind. Just let you see for yourself that dogs can have a place on the trail with the right owner.
Thanks,
Chip;)

Tin Man
11-28-2005, 22:45
I am with Sarge on this. No matter how well behaved a dog supposedly is, he still is not going to wipe his feet before entering the shelter or pick up his messes. In fact, a wet dog shakes himself out in a dry spot like a shelter no matter how well mannered he is. I also agree with Sarge that dogs suffer on the trail. I like dogs too - I just don't think they belong on the trail.

Chip
11-28-2005, 22:51
I am with Sarge on this. No matter how well behaved a dog supposedly is, he still is not going to wipe his feet before entering the shelter or pick up his messes. In fact, a wet dog shakes himself out in a dry spot like a shelter no matter how well mannered he is. I also agree with Sarge that dogs suffer on the trail. I like dogs too - I just don't think they belong on the trail.

I tent with my dog. NO SHELTERS ! Practice LNT with my dog. Well trained dogs do not suffer but have a good time. :datz

SGT Rock
11-28-2005, 23:18
Sarge: Don't know that I agree with you on every point, but I also have seen things I'm not comfortable with either. BTW, I wasn't being sarcastic about using your points from your previous post; they really will be helpful trying to illuminate what aspect of dog's behaviour is honestly offensive to any other rational hiker and I fully intend on trying to incorporate that into what I have going. I ain't the greatest writer in the world but I'm going to do my best.

Be my guest. I have never had an issue with being quoted.

I also once was one of the most vehement support of dog hiking. But after reading some things (like that sort of post we are discussing) I started realizing how others perceived dogs. The type of dog hiker that simply dismisses people like me as unexperienced or uninformed is absolutely wrong, I am a convert. I was actually you at one time.

Guys like Chip want to meet me on the trail to prove how good his dog is, but that is not the point anyway. If I only had a dime for every time I heard that and it turned out to be false - and on top of that the dog owner never realized it. I also realized that hikers with even the best dogs were actually an encouragement to the hikers with the really bad dogs. The "I'm just as good as you" mentality, except in this case it was "my dog is just as good as yours". The last instance of that sort of thing happened to me on the trail with a LEASHED DOG. A dog on a 6 foot leash can still block a 18" wide trail as it lunges at you with the owner saying how that never happened before.

I was once where you guys are. I was certain dogs could be well trained and accommodated. But a few years of seeing the "Me and my dog aren't the problem" hikers got me to realize that people that think like that often really are the problems - and never realize it. I've seen hikers with experienced trail dogs refused to believe eyewitness accounts of their dog doing things like pissing on gear because their dog had more trail miles than some multiple thru-hikers.:rolleyes: Or saying that their dog has a right to **** where ever it wants or whatever.

I also started paying closer attention to my dog's mood on the trail and realized while she was happy a lot of the time, she was also miserable sometimes too - like hiking in the rain, or on mile 12 of a 15 mile day. Of course she would still go strong for me, but it wasn't her thing. Playing with a Frisbee in a field was her thing. Chasing around the yard was just as fun for her as going for a hike, and at least there she could quit if she got tired of it.

Anyway, I know I will never convince many of you here, but just watch your dog closely and see if you don't see what I'm pointing out here. And, oh by the way, have the cajones to say it is so later on if you do see it and try and convince other hikers to also not bring their dogs.


I believe the whole "dogs on the trail" controversy is based on a lack of respect on both sides of the argument and if I can I'd like to try to get the discussion on a higher plane than some of the other threads I've seen on this subject.

Add to that the number of violent or near violent dog incidents that hikers have reported. Read and believe that other hikers actually do feel threatened when they see your dog even before it acts because of this. The mere presence of your dog can be just as threatening to others as if you were carrying a unconcealed firearm.

So actually I only see it one way. People still bring their dogs on the trail no matter what others say or feel. So, if you honestly analyze that thought you just made, you will see the only one lacking respect of the other side is the person that decides to bring their dog be damned of what others say or feel. The inverse, me not bringing my dog cannot possibly offend you if you don't even know when you meet me that mine is at home.

FatMan
11-29-2005, 00:05
and if I can I'd like to try to get the discussion on a higher plane than some of the other threads I've seen on this subject.As nice a thought as that may be, it will never happen on WhiteBlaze.There are plenty of Dog friendly sites on the web where these topics are discussed without the "Dogs should be banned" drumbeat. Just Google Hiking with Dogs and you will find more information than you can consume.

Fact is, I hike with my dog for companionship cause I'm not a big fan of how so many other hikers behave on the trail and we avoid them at all costs. I hke to get away from people, not hang out with them. To all the dog owners out there who want to hike with their dogs you owe it to all the other hikers to minimize contact. Do it by hiking lesser used trails, only hiking the AT when the thru-hikers are not in that area, and never use shelters.

I had hoped this thread had a chance of falling away since "Dog" was not in the title, but alas, I was wrong.

smokymtnsteve
11-29-2005, 00:36
Sleeping bag for a dog??

I got dogs that won't even sleep in thier dog house,,, even when it is -29 F.

They LOVE to sleep outside on the snow!!

SGT Rock
11-29-2005, 01:04
But you dogs are part polar bear.

Two Speed
11-29-2005, 07:11
. . .And, oh by the way, have the cajones to say it is so later on if you do see it and try and convince other hikers to also not bring their dogs. . .Do you have the cajones to see what I have going before slamming the door?

I see that as inflammatory, just like my response was. I wish I had more time to deal with this right now but I need to get on to work. Whatever you do I honestly hope you have a good day.

NICKTHEGREEK
11-29-2005, 07:53
Which would you rather meet on the trail:

An irresponsible hiker with a cell phone OR

An irresponsible hiker with a dog. :confused:

Someone who constantly whines about the responsibilities of others.

SGT Rock
11-29-2005, 08:40
Do you have the cajones to see what I have going before slamming the door?

I see that as inflammatory, just like my response was. I wish I had more time to deal with this right now but I need to get on to work. Whatever you do I honestly hope you have a good day.

Why is it inflammatory? Because I actually think that many dog hikers will not tell other dog hikers to stop bringing their pets out if they don't need to be there?

I've seen it.

A hiker has a dog jump up on them and tells the owner "Oh it is OK. My dog at home does that too sometimes" in an attempt top be nice - but after the person and dog leaves say something like "I wish they would learn to control their dog", and I include myself in people that don't say something at the time. At least I am trying to amend my ways now to inform people before they get on the trail when it would be more effective - before the decision is made. I thought that was a part of what you planned to put in the article? So do you see you article as inflammatory?

Anyway. What upsets people about other hikers honestly telling you how they feel about their dogs on the trail? If folks really have a problem with them and their actions, this is not sniveling, disrespect, or complaining to make you uncomfortable. They are really saying what they see and feel.

icemanat95
11-29-2005, 09:36
All this hate goin on here, some of you need to go hike somewhere in the wilderness. Not much to hate there

I completely agree. That word gets altogether too much exercise with most people. It's a pretty extreme emotion and shouldn't be refered to so casually.

If you really do hate cell phones and dogs on the trails, I suggest you get some counselling for anger management or something, because investing that much negative emotion into something so trivial is destructive.

Tin Man
11-29-2005, 10:09
It is not about whether people love or hate dogs or cell phones. It's about personal space. Dogs tend to invade personal space and actually invoke fear in many. Cell phones invade our sense of remoteness. As we walk down a city block, our personal space is very limited and our expectations of our personal space are very limited. As we walk down a suburban or rural neighborhood, our expectations of personal space expands as the density of people and structures shrinks. When we take to the woods, we have the highest expectations for personal space. When we encounter others in the woods, our personal space shrinks back to more of a rural expectation and we expect to maintain a large degree of personal space. The expression of how people feel about dogs and cell phones on the trail are examples of how people feel about their expectations of personal space in the woods. Clearly the message here is many do not appreciate the encroachment of personal space on the trail that the presence of dogs and cell phones bring to the scene.

Chip
11-29-2005, 12:02
It is not about whether people love or hate dogs or cell phones. It's about personal space. Dogs tend to invade personal space and actually invoke fear in many. Cell phones invade our sense of remoteness. As we walk down a city block, our personal space is very limited and our expectations of our personal space are very limited. As we walk down a suburban or rural neighborhood, our expectations of personal space expands as the density of people and structures shrinks. When we take to the woods, we have the highest expectations for personal space. When we encounter others in the woods, our personal space shrinks back to more of a rural expectation and we expect to maintain a large degree of personal space. The expression of how people feel about dogs and cell phones on the trail are examples of how people feel about their expectations of personal space in the woods. Clearly the message here is many do not appreciate the encroachment of personal space on the trail that the presence of dogs and cell phones bring to the scene.

I agree 100 percent with your statement ! :clap This is one of the issues (or two) in regards to being on the trail and sharing it with other hikers. I also understand SGT Rock's opinion as well.

When I am on the trail I am considerate of the other people who share the trail with me. That means no cell phone use. I carry for only a dire emergency. When my dog is with me, I have full control of my dog at all times and my dog is trained to be out in the backcountry. I have been jumped many times by other dogs that were not controlled and my dog has also been jumped on by other dogs as well. I wish I had a dime for every time that has happened. I am not trying to convince anyone of any certain
opinion. What I am saying is that there are some folks who know how to hike with a cell phone or a dog or both and can be really considerate to other hikers and their space. To do this one must be a caring, responsible hiker.

People who hike and can not respect "the space" of other hikers and the "great outdoors" SHOULD STAY HOME!!!! By this I mean folks who are rude and use a cell phone anytime they please and ruin the outdoor experience for others nearby. People who hike with untrained dogs and really don't care what their dog might do to other hikers. For those who can't dig a cat hole and bury their waste and T paper properly and those who litter along the trail. Those who write and draw graffito or damage shelters.

These are just a few things that can invade "space" and make the outdoors less enjoyable. Just remember that there are good folks who DO CARE and they are responsible BECAUSE they want EVERYONE to have a good time on the trail !!!

My two cents & now I'm off my soap box.:)

Two Speed
11-29-2005, 12:49
Sargent, I think we're beating our heads on the opposite sides of the same brick wall. You've done nothing to change my opinion and I apparently haven't added anything to the conversation either. I have no wish to engage in an endless debate that distracts from the purpose of this website.

I wish you well and Happy Trails.

c.coyle
11-29-2005, 13:10
... It's about personal space ...

Bingo. (Had to get the 10 character minimum)

Marta
11-29-2005, 21:35
While both dogs and cell phones encroach on personal space, I can not imagine being physically harmed, or having my gear/food/clothing damaged by someone's cell phone. The same can not be said of a dog.

Dogs on the Trail are like toddlers in nice restaurants--often annoying to other diners and possibly destructive. Sure you can take your toddler to a nice restaurant but it takes a huge amount of parental energy to keep the toddler amused/fed/under control. Slack off for a minute and the toddler will find other, less acceptable forms of amusement like throwing food and screaming. Only the fondest of parents regards that sort of thing as cute.

A restaurant meal doesn't last very long, but a hike can. How many dog owners have the energy to deal with the dog 24/7 for weeks or months on end?

While I don't particularly like big dogs, and would rather people didn't bring them along on hikes, making lots of rules doesn't really help. I was in the GSMNP weekend before last. In the Smokemont campground a couple of guys had two large German shepherds with them. They parked near the only open bathroom and kept the dogs tethered near the path, where they barked constantly and lunged at everyone who came down the path. They also walked the dogs around and around the campground, letting them sniff at people's stuff--and bark, of course. I guess the owners were following the rules about keeping the animals on leashes and whatnot, but the dogs were very annoying because of the racket they made, and because they were threatening everyone. The idiot owners seemed to be perversely proud of the horrible creatures. The owners reminded me of proud parents who are thrilled when their obnoxious kids are the center of attention--aren't they so CUTE? (BTW, there were quite a few other campers with dogs, none of which were misbehaving at all, or at least not in a way that bothered anyone else.)

On the other hand, when I was hiking along the Big Creek trail Thanksgiving Day, where dogs are not allowed, I met a guy walking with his bear dog, which I assume had wandered into the Park from the neighboring national forest. Even though they were breaking the rules, they didn't bother me in the slightest--no barking, no growling, not even a sniff in my direction.

bfitz
11-29-2005, 22:13
I'd want them both to be the same guy. That way his annoyingness is minimized but his usefulness is maximized...ie. play with his dog...have it bark away bears at night...borrow his cell phone to order pizza to the road crossing...only one guy to hike faster than when you're sick of him...

Skidsteer
11-29-2005, 22:16
I'd want them both to be the same guy. That way his annoyingness is minimized but his usefulness is maximized...ie. play with his dog...have it bark away bears at night...borrow his cell phone to order pizza to the road crossing...only one guy to hike faster than when you're sick of him...

Yeah! Use him and lose him. I'm with you! And if He/She hikes too fast for me.. even easier.

prozac
11-29-2005, 22:32
I stand by my original post. Actually thought I would get flamed even worse then I did. Rock, thanx for taking up the challenge in my abscense. You actually did a much better job defending my position then I would have. I might have to put you on retainer in case I ever need a good internet mouthpiece. Also, Tinman wrote one of the more logical, insightful posts to date on Whiteblaze. Post more often.
I'll continue with dogs as I really don't have a problem with cellphones as I have never really come across an obnoxious cellphone user on the trail. Must be lucky. Its in the real world that I hate cellphones. And don't even get me started on Nextels.
I am a dog lover. In fact I'm scratching my dogs ears as I type this. Most dogs still don't belong on the trail. I'm feeling generous so I'll lower my previous estimate down to 89%. As to the remaining 11%, bring them on. As I previously stated I love to meet well trained dogs on the trail. I'll take a good dogs company over most humans every time. And as a dog owner, I'll even suggest that hikers should show proper etiquette by asking an owners permission before approaching a dog and petting it. You should also always ask if it is okay to feed the dog or give it a snack. Just good form to do so.
At the risk of getting flamed even worse, let me add a certain percentage of people hike with dogs because of fear of spending the night alone in the woods. There, I said it. Any further posts please direct to the firm of Rock, Tinman, Marta and Chip. :D

bfitz
11-29-2005, 22:37
I like most dogs I meet on the trail, and most people, and my cell phone saved lives so I'm in favor...each situation/person judged on their own merits...

Rain Man
11-29-2005, 23:45
... When I am on the trail I am considerate of the other people ... When my dog is with me, I have full control of my dog at all times and my dog is trained ....

You do realize, of course, that many/most/all dog owners on the trail make these exact same claims?

Rain:sunMan

.

Tacoda
11-30-2005, 00:00
This fire needs a bit more fuel. BURN!!! who is next?

Tin Man
11-30-2005, 00:00
You do realize, of course, that many/most/all dog owners on the trail make these exact same claims?

Rain:sunMan

.

I agree. It reminds me of the Jurassic Park film where "having control" was like John Hammond's flea circus, just an illusion.

Husko
11-30-2005, 00:51
Real decisions for real children are influenced by the papers developmentalists write, regardless of whether we ever intended our papers to be used in the policy arena. Yet most social scientists seldom analyze data in ways that are most useful to policymakers. First, for research to be most useful not only in the policy arena but also more generally, significance tests need to be accompanied by effect size estimates. The practical importance of an effect size depends on the scientific context (i.e., measurement, design, and method) as well as the empirical literature context. Second, researchers need to use all existing data when weighing in on a policy debate; here, meta-analyses are particularly useful. Finally, researchers need to be careful about embracing null or small findings, because effects may well be small due to measurement problems alone, particularly early in the history of a research domain.

Chip
11-30-2005, 01:23
[quote=Rain Man]You do realize, of course, that many/most/all dog owners on the trail make these exact same claims?

Rain:sunMan

Yes, you are right and I have heard these myself many times. Too often the owner does not have control. They think if the dog is on a leash that is control. Too bad that's not the case.

When I am on the trail and a hiker(s) approach me and my dog they will see that we have moved off the trail at least 10 feet. I have hands on my dogs
collar or harness. My dog is sitting down. I have used a voice command and have a good firm grip on my dog. My dog knows this is okay by way of training. The dog leash is is 6 feet long connected to a special belt I wear.
This is enough slack because my dog walks just in front of me at a comfortable pace for her and me. I can quickly get control if needed when I see someone or any wildlife close by. There are certain things one must do when hiking with a dog. This just happens to be one way I can be considerate of other hikers. For me it is not any extra trouble if I am going to hike with my dog. LNT, I know when my dog needs to take a dump or leak by her behavior. I move off the trail at least 15 to 20 yards. Dig a cat hole when needed. When hiking with my dog we never stay in shelters. There are several reasons for this. First is being considerate of other hikers.
Next dogs and shelters don't mix. Mice, food that has been left behind from sloppy habits, other smells and and the fact that the shelter is a strange place don't help. All of these things can entice any dog no matter how well trained. I tent or tarp out of sight (and sound of people) from the shelter.
I keep my dog away from the water source. There are other things too that should be done but won't go into those right now.

Once again there some extra things that one has to do when hiking with a dog. I don't mind doing the extra steps to insure that me and my dog are
doing the right thing by being considerate of other hikers, the backcountry
and hiking safely. Preparation and practice can lead to a pleasurable hike and prevention of a mishap. I am reminded of the saying " there are no accidents, only bad behavior or habits that cause a bad situation".

Rain Man thanks for your response. Hope I was able to shed some light on my style of hiking with my dog. I guess I'm really lucky that I have a good natured, smart dog that loves to hike.

Happy Trails,
Chip :)

Rain Man
11-30-2005, 10:22
Yes, you are right and I have heard these myself many times. Too often the owner does not have control. They think if the dog is on a leash that is control. Too bad that's not the case. ... Rain Man thanks for your response. Hope I was able to shed some light on my style of hiking with my dog. I guess I'm really lucky that I have a good natured, smart dog that loves to hike.

Thanks, Chip. And sounds as if your dog is really lucky to have a good natured, smart owner!
:)
Rain:sunMan

.

Gray Blazer
11-30-2005, 13:06
"I'd rather kill a cellphone than a dog. Not because I love dogs or hate cellphones. It is a question, rather of disproportion." Edvard Crabbey

'Hurt not the earth, neither the dogs, nor the cellphones..." john24/7

Footslogger
11-30-2005, 13:09
[quote=Bear Bait II
'Hurt not the earth, neither the dogs, nor the cellphones..." john24/7
=========================================
A quote from the new-wave bible ??

'Slogger

saimyoji
11-30-2005, 19:52
I think most of us who have encountered dogs on the trail can say that some owners seem to understand how to control the dog, others have no clue. Some people understand how to use their cell phone appropriately, others have no clue.

The point of my question was merely: Between two irresponsible hikers (one with a dog, the other with cell phone) which would you rather NOT meet on the trail?

Just because someone has a dog, doesn't mean they are irresponsible, nor does the fact that someone has a cell phone. "Its in the way that you use it."...so to speak. ;)

SteveJ
11-30-2005, 21:56
clip

The point of my question was merely: Between two irresponsible hikers (one with a dog, the other with cell phone) which would you rather NOT meet on the trail?

clip

Given that clarification, as a dog owner who freque... strike that ... always hikes with his dog - I'd rather rather meet the obnoxious guy with the cell phone! At least the obnoxious guy with the cell phone is just annoying... I was actually bit on the butt by the dog owned by a "friend of a friend" I was hiking with....course I was more concerned about whether he'd put holes in my new Marmot pants than if he'd broken the skin. :mad: Haven't hiked with him since!

bfitz
12-01-2005, 13:20
I was in charge of someone elses dog who was usually very responsive and obedient...(I swear this dog could actually talk with barks and whines and had a vocabulary of recognizable words...I would tell the dog to go outside to take a leak and be back in five minutes...and he'd be back in five minutes I swear to god...) so I started to let the dog do as he pleased because I thought everything was OK but when some unknown hikers rolled up the dog suddenly became very territorial and actually lunged and snapped at one of the hikers (a terrified older lady...) I never expected it and couldn't have anticipated it, and afterwords he (the dog) actually "said" sorry! If I had simply gotten up and restrained the dog as they passed there would have been no problem...

Nean
12-02-2005, 01:52
I carry a cell phone so that when my dogs get out of control i can call my lady and she can sweet talk them and calm em down. They only bite and pee on folks I tell them to...so, very well trained.

sliderule
12-02-2005, 12:24
The point of my question was merely: Between two irresponsible hikers (one with a dog, the other with cell phone) which would you rather NOT meet on the trail?

;)
Personally, saimyoji, I don't think your question has a point. None of us has any real control over who or what we encounter on the trail. We can only control whether we are on the trail or not.

Now, could posing such absurd and hypothetical questions be considered "irresponsible"? Maybe we should talk about it. What's your cell number?

Oh, yes. If you were going to be injured on the trail 13 miles from the nearest trailhead, would you rather break your leg or be jabbed in the eye by a sharp stick? And in either situation, would you hope that the next hiker that came along had a dog or a cell phone?

Nean
12-02-2005, 13:16
The doghiker, cause the cell phone kills billions and billions of McChickens served,
and you probably couldn't get reception.....yet

sliderule
12-02-2005, 16:40
The possibilites are endless. What if you encountered an irresponsible hiker with a dog and a cell phone? What would bother you most: the dog, the cell phone or the lack of responsibility?

Would you ask to borrow the cell phone to report the irresponsible hiker? Would it be irresponsible if you did not? How do you responsibly deal with the irresponsible?

If you were the dog, how would you feel?

BooBoo
12-03-2005, 00:20
My Midnight is one awesom canine. I love dogs.

As for cell phones.... Its far easier to throw a cell off of a cliff than a dog.

'Cell phone gone pal I'm sorry put I haven't seen your cell phone" You may want to check at the bottom of that ravine over there".

Husko
12-03-2005, 00:42
i would hate to see what a bunch of white blaze hikers would do to a fella with a cell phone and dog on the trail with out laws. this is a f-ucking witch hunt and i'm tired of it.

everyone enjoy your hike and i hope you find what you all are looking for by the time it's all over.

I was naive to think an online forum could enlighten me.

later..... And if you see me on the trail, just stay away. I'll have more important matters to attend to..

bye whiteblaze.

Nean
12-03-2005, 01:14
Husko, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel! Don't worry, your chance of meeting a person who acts like they do on WB is slim and none. Either that or the venom often seen here will start seeping to the trail- hope not.
That is a good qoute from Billy S;)

Tin Man
12-03-2005, 02:26
i would hate to see what a bunch of white blaze hikers would do to a fella with a cell phone and dog on the trail with out laws. this is a f-ucking witch hunt and i'm tired of it.

everyone enjoy your hike and i hope you find what you all are looking for by the time it's all over.

I was naive to think an online forum could enlighten me.

later..... And if you see me on the trail, just stay away. I'll have more important matters to attend to..

bye whiteblaze.

WB'ers aren't reactionary. We only react when people bring dogs and cell phones on the trail. :banana

You are right to leave WB if you don't have a thick skin and a sense of humor. Online forums provide enlightenment alright. You can be enlightened about how smart, how fun and how absurd people really can be when they don't have to look you in the eye.

Seriously, sorry to see you go. It really is a good place to test your wit and wisdom and there really are a lot of good people and information out here. Good luck and god speed in whatever you do.

Sly
12-03-2005, 02:53
LOL... A bye cruel world Whiteblaze post. Suck it up Husko, there's more things to worry about once you get on the trail.

justusryans
12-03-2005, 08:53
sob, sob, no one will play with me... I'm taking my toys and going home!!

SGT Rock
12-03-2005, 11:54
Witch hunt. No. No one is being burned at the stake, no one is being persecuted. To call others saying what they think a Witch hunt is a stretch by a long shot. In fact, there was one poster here that wanted to mock and use inflamatory retoric about leaving poop for others to step in because he felt somehow justified in belittleing the opinion of someone he disagreed with. Again, what some of us have said about the unthinking actions of some when their animals are making an annoyance of themselves and we take issue with it. I guess that sort of highlights the exact problem that we encounter - we must hate the dog or be too sensitive or something - we can't possible be saying the truth.

Think about this: This is people actually saying what they feel. You know how sometimes someone can smile to your face and be nice then say something later "behind your back" so to speak about how they really feel? Now you get to hear how dogs are really impacting others and how some others really feel about it. If it disturbs you, maybe you should evaluate why that is. Maybe you should evaluate how we all got to that point. Do you think that people simply woke up one day and decided they didn't like dogs on the trail? Or maybe, just maybe dogs on the trail have turned them to this point and they are trying to get the point across to the dog hikers what they see? Logic would make the second part the answer, especially when you consider how many of the posters are dog owners and lovers.

Remember that people here have said things about how the person that is the dog owner is often in denial that they are the problem in the first place when it is obvious to everyone else around them that they are: even other dog hikers say this. Other dog owners seem to say things about how much they hate seeing other dog owners screw it up for others, but some of them should get out a mirror. Yet maybe the two ideas - people thinking it is everyone else, and people refusing to acknowledge they are the problems, well that illustrate the real root of the problem. Hmmmm...

As to being tired to being to being tired of the f-ing witch hunt - I guess is it just shows some folks out there how much they don't realize what others really think about their dogs. I think the fact really is you can't handle the fact that people really feel this way is more - that is the real issue. Thanks for your great post.

Tin Man
12-03-2005, 13:59
Great post Rock. Reminds of that famous movie line, "You can't handle the truth!" [Albiet the context is slightly different]

Dogs are cool. Dogs are fun. I love dogs as much as the next dog lover. They just don't belong on the trail. If so many of us say it, then it must be the truth.

The Desperado
12-03-2005, 14:14
Their both a pain, and I tell them so. I dont dislike dogs or folks with cell phones, but lets face it ..as the old timers use to say...their is a time & a place for things. We are not talking about well mannered dogs and respectful folks yakking on phones here....D

Nean
12-03-2005, 18:08
I bring my dogs on the trail in order to thin the herd. Too many people on the trail! We need more dogs, cellphones, shelters, sodas, yahoos, yehaas, etc. Sing with me won't you... This trail is my trail, this trail is your trail, from the hill called Springer, To the Mt. Katahdin.....:dance

Funny, I used to be anti-dog too. Hiking cured me!

middle to middle
12-21-2005, 12:08
I recall filling water botttle at a spring and a day hiker with a dog walks up; she sits down and the dog jummps in the spring and sloshes around muddying the water and I did not get my fill. She was oblivious and never said a word. Just ignorant and obnoxious thing to do. Actually talked to the dog while sitting there. This is the kind of thing that makes one be anti dog.

Nean
12-21-2005, 17:25
Sounds like the lady needed some advice. Too many bite their tongue only to vent later. Whenever I see litterbugs, oblivious dog owners, yahoos acting a fool in town, etc., I'll try to reason with them. However, one of my reasons has never been: there sure are a lot of people on the internet who don't like dogs on the trail.:)

leeki pole
12-21-2005, 17:50
Guys, I love my Lab to death, he could (and would ) outhike all of us. He'd do 30 miles a day if asked. But I'd never consider anything more than a dayhike with him. A thru is no place for a dog. Final answer, Regis.:D

Nightwalker
12-21-2005, 18:00
I bring my dogs on the trail in order to thin the herd. Too many people on the trail! We need more dogs, cellphones, shelters, sodas, yahoos, yehaas, etc. Sing with me won't you... This trail is my trail, this trail is your trail, from the hill called Springer, To the Mt. Katahdin.....:dance

Funny, I used to be anti-dog too. Hiking cured me!
Yeah, you probably took Annie on the trail outside of GSMNP while you were babysitting her. 'Course, a 15,000 mile dog probably knows how to behave pretty well. I know that one does.

Nean
12-21-2005, 18:05
Guys, I love my Lab to death, he could (and would ) outhike all of us. He'd do 30 miles a day if asked. But I'd never consider anything more than a dayhike with him. A thru is no place for a dog. Final answer, Regis.:D

Thanks for leaving your problem dog at home Regis, one less person to advise.:) ;)

Nean
12-21-2005, 18:26
Yeah, you probably took Annie on the trail outside of GSMNP while you were babysitting her. 'Course, a 15,000 mile dog probably knows how to behave pretty well. I know that one does.

Did you say outside?!?!:D Naw, but we went on a few 3 milers; just to keep her limber. I have heard stories of a legendary dog who loved to hike the Smokys...

BTW, Annie was born to hike :) She's got 14,ooo+m w/o a problem, but I'll defer to those who have done more and know better:-?

Lone Wolf
04-04-2008, 05:57
Which would you rather meet on the trail:

An irresponsible hiker with a cell phone OR

An irresponsible hiker with a dog. :confused:

cell hiker. they don't bother me. it's the norm on the AT these days

Tin Man
04-04-2008, 06:43
cell hiker. they don't bother me. it's the norm on the AT these days

Actually, the cell phone is more of a solution than a problem. The cell saves my ears from the yackers and allows me to move on without having to make excuses.

sheepdog
04-04-2008, 07:41
CNN) -- It's one of the biggest sources of guilt for a dog owner -- not spending enough time with their four-legged friends.
Now, a U.S. company has developed a device in a bid to reduce those feelings of despair, by inventing a cell phone so that dogs and their owners can communicate when they are away from each other.
The PetsCell, measuring 12.5cm (5 inches) by 7.5cm (3 inches), is shaped like a bone and is attached to the dog's collar. It works in much the same way as a conventional mobile phone.
The owner dials their pooch's number and after one ring, it automatically connects to the phone on the dog's collar, allowing the dog to hear its master's voice, transmitted out of a speaker built into the collar-piece.
If the dog barks in response, the owner will hear it through their own telephone, creating a dog-owner telephone "conversation."
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/TECH/02/03/spark.dogphone/story.dog.jpg

How about a rude dog talking on a cell phone???

Montego
04-04-2008, 23:55
Love dogs.......T'aint never been bitten by a cell phone though :D

sofaking
04-05-2008, 00:15
i hates me a hiking dog on the cell phone...

Jim Adams
04-05-2008, 18:57
Qualify the term irresponsible first.


....anyone out there with a cell phone or a dog!:D

geek

dessertrat
04-05-2008, 22:35
Gosh, we anti-dog people are real jerks, we only act like asses on the internet while other do it on the trail without ever realizing it.

Earl Shaffer describes, on his first thru, being bitten by a chow, right in front of the owner, in a manner that drew blood. When he said something to the owner, the owner denied that the dog had bitten him, although they both were right there and saw it. That's the way some dog owners are.

Rockhound
04-05-2008, 23:24
Id hate to see an irresponsible dog using a cell phone

Pootz
04-05-2008, 23:29
I would much rather encounter a cell phone. Never been turned away from a shelter by a cell phone and a cell phone does not bite.

I was at the springer mtn. shelter on Monday 3-31-08 and a thru hiker there had a dog that barked and growled at us and would not let us into the shelter. The owners response was that the dog did not like strangers. Luckily we were just passing through so I did not make a big stink. This guy and his dog are going to quickly be unpopular on the trail, I hope he and his dog both have a quick exit from the trail so they do not negatively impact many others. Hikers and dogs like this one give responsible owners and good dogs a bad name.

gypsy
04-08-2008, 21:16
Love dogs.......T'aint never been bitten by a cell phone though :D
uh.. huh huh.... you said taint:D

Montego
04-08-2008, 23:44
uh.. huh huh.... you said taint:D

So I'm an Okie (as good an excuse as any) :D

Nearly Normal
04-09-2008, 01:54
From what I heard, I can expect to step in the **** of other hikers. I can expect to find other hikers that try to mooch food from you. I can expect to find other hikers rinsing their fumunda cheese into the water sources. I can expect to find annoying people in shelters that snore. I can expect to find thieves on the trail. I can expect to find all sorts of silly humans that do things that offend me, bother me, and just plain annoy me. And as in the past, it's always possible to find a murder on the trail.

(sarcastic)

I've heard everyone in this forum complain about the list above,(Except the murders, thankfully.) So why don't all the hikers just stay home so that I won't have to deal with them?

You need to change your trail choices.

warraghiyagey
04-09-2008, 01:56
You need to change your trail choices.

Amongst other things.:rolleyes::(

Nearly Normal
04-09-2008, 02:15
When I see your loyal companion, trusted friend, lovable pooch, all I see is a dog. A really poor excuse for you and me to have a problem if it gets out of line.
When I see a cell phone growing out of your ear all I see is some bozo that can't go anywhere without his toys. There may be a good excuse to own one of those things but I aint found it yet. I hope I never do.

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 12:23
Most hikers seem to carry them now, yet very rarely in my experience do hikers use cell phones in seriously annoying ways, such talking loudly and endlessly on them in shelters late at night. Plus, of about half of the few times I've seen someone use a cellphone in a shelter, they have offered to let someone else use it. Atop Blood Mountain or the like on summer day with nice weather, yeah, you'll see and hear lots of cell phones going on the Trail. Otherwise, they're pretty rare.

OTOH, while dogs are much less common, a dog being an unprovoked PITA to other hikers is common, even routine. I have been barked at at close range, threatened, had my cooking food menaced, even been attacked vigorously enough that I had to knock the s**t out of dogs with my staff, etc., enough times that I have become very anti-trail dog, when I LIKE dogs I know, and wasn't anti-trail dog before.

I believe:

1) It is okay to immediately bear-spray ANY dog that approaches you closely, without a warning to the owner. That includes in a shelter or campsite, if a dog starts to put its nose in your space. The dog owner took that risk by bringing the dog overly close to other people to begin with. In justice, the dog owner should apologize to the other hiker, immediately compensate the intruded-upon other hiker for the cost of the bear spray, then leaving the trail to take him mutt home, since he and it together just proved they can't handle the requirement to not affect other people with their dog.

2) That loose dogs not close to or voice-controlled by owners, can legitimately be shot on sight. One day, I'd like to see a bounty system ($200.00 minimum) set up on them, to be paid for by the irresponsible owners. As Ridge laudably worded it, "On the leash or on the grill -- owner's choice."

3) That dogs should NEVER come within 50' of a trail shelter with one exception, even if the shelter is vacant, it's after dark, and the weather s*cks. Another hiker might come along, and shouldn't be forced into either having to tell you to move your dog 100 yards down the Trail, or to put up with it wrongly being there. (The exception is if the Trail passes close to the shelter. In that case, the dog and owner should pass on by the shelter without pausing.)

4) If your dog is not on a sturdy leash 100% (NOT 99.999%) of the time you are outdoors off your property, you are a stupid @sshole not fit to own animals or hike public trails. Period. Even if the terrain is such that you can't easily hike with a leashed dog, that doesn't get you out of the leash requirement; it just means your inadequacies mean you don't belong on that trail section til you get the dog home. I don't care if that's not (yet) enforced by LEOs there or your dog is so highly trained to voice it's a working circus dog. Other hikers don't know if your dog is that well trained, and shouldn't have to worry about it attacking them, BC a leash was just way too expensive for your small income to afford, or too complicated for your smaller brain to operate. Anyway, most dogowners that believe their dogs are reliably trained to voice discipline are provably wrong.

5) I believe it is a reasonable act, if a bozo brings a dog into a shelter or occupied campsite, to place a piece of food heavily laced with a laxative on one's gear, for a nice surprise for the owner later, when the dog is lying on his sleeping bag/in his tent. (A baited mousetrap there is a legitimate option IMO as well.) If the dog comes into fully-claimed space, and has a bad result, that result is all, and I mean ALL, on the head of the owner, who should have controlled his dog. No hiker should be forced to put up with a dog coming into his space and making him feel threatened, getting into his food, stepping with dirty feet on his clothes and bedding, etc., even for a second.

6) I completely dislike and disagree with the current "therapy dog" loophole some jerkoff dogowners use to legally (if not morally) get away with bringing dogs into trail sections where they know perfectly well companion dogs are best not brought. If someone is so emotionally fragile that they can't function even briefly without a living teddy bear around, IMO they need to be at home getting daily therapy from a psychiatrist until they are normally functional, perhaps even institutionalized until that day when they can hike without a dog.

7) If you own a particularly large breed, say, anything over 50 pounds, especially one that has a reputation for being a biter (chow, pit bull, bull terrier, mastiff, wolf mix, German Shepherd, etc.), it should be muzzled while off your property and outside your (doors/windows all closed) vehicle.

8) If a dog does cause any property damage, the dog owner should IMMEDIATELY and apologetically fully compensate the injured party in cash. (Dog owners should always carry extra cash for this likelihood.)

9) If you bring a dog onto a hiking trail on public land, you should shorten your dog's leash to under 3 feet, step off the trail, and pull your dog to your side farthest from the other hiker, until he is well past.

10) If your dog starts to bark, especially between 2100-0800 hours and/or anywhere within hearing distance of a shelter/campsite with any other people present, but really anywhere on public land, you have an inescapable responsiblity to IMMEDIATELY silence your dog by physical methods. (Ineffectively crooning "Shushie-poo, Mr. Tiddles!" over and over for hours in the middle of the night while your dog makes more noise than 2 Cub Scout troops the day after Halloween doesn't cut it.) If you haven't the fortitude to spank it when it needs it, then you'd have nothing left in the way of honorable options but to stop whereever you are, grasp your dog around the muzzle firmly enough it can't bark, and stay like that til it no longer wants to bark, however long it takes.

11) Dogs in water sources: NO! How complicated is that? If it's a tiny stream, carry it over or walk around. Bring water to your dog, tied/staked a distance away.

12) Bury your dog's poop as you would your own. That means if Rover dumps on the Trail, pick it up and walk away from the Trail, and cathole it 6"+ deep.

13) And, for the sake of other hikers who don't deserve to have yet another service provider decide to shut down due to jerk dog-carting hikers, don't bring your dog anywhere near hostels and motels that don't allow them. If it starts to rain, that doesn't mean the rules get bent. It means you tent in the rain with your dog, away from other hikers, a warm room, and soft bed, as you decided you'd often have to do when you inexplicably brought a DOG on your LD hike.

14) Dogs make thruhikes sufficiently more expensive, complicated, and less pleasant for everyone (owner AND other hikers) to the point I don't see why an informed, considerate hiker would bring one. Dogs are routinely so intrusive on other people's hikes that it's respecting their right to allow them to HTOHs. Anyway, dogs can't even generally (except for service ones) legally hike the whole trail, so normally can't thruhike anyway. Lastly, dogs have such poor odds at making it so much as 1000 miles anyway, that it's as dumb as it is cruel to the dog to take one on a LD hike(too likely to run off and get lost forever, find a skunk/porcupine/bear, get out in traffic, get lamed longterm, etc.).

Take Barky with you on day walks in your local park or around your neighborhood, fine. But when it comes time for overnight hiking, especially on marked trails, do right by everyone including your presumably-loved pet, and leave him at home, where he'll be safe until your return.

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 12:27
On #9, I meant when a dog owner encounters another hiker on the Trail. Leashes should IMO not exceed 6' in length on marked trails in any event.

Appalachian Tater
04-09-2008, 12:35
Most hikers seem to carry them now, yet very rarely in my experience do hikers use cell phones in seriously annoying ways, such talking loudly and endlessly on them in shelters late at night. Plus, of about half of the few times I've seen someone use a cellphone in a shelter, they have offered to let someone else use it. Atop Blood Mountain or the like on summer day with nice weather, yeah, you'll see and hear lots of cell phones going on the Trail. Otherwise, they're pretty rare.

OTOH, while dogs are much less common, a dog being an unprovoked PITA to other hikers is common, even routine. I have been barked at at close range, threatened, had my cooking food menaced, even been attacked vigorously enough that I had to knock the s**t out of dogs with my staff, etc., enough times that I have become very anti-trail dog, when I LIKE dogs I know, and wasn't anti-trail dog before.

I believe:

1) It is okay to immediately bear-spray ANY dog that approaches you closely, without a warning to the owner. That includes in a shelter or campsite, if a dog starts to put its nose in your space. The dog owner took that risk by bringing the dog overly close to other people to begin with. In justice, the dog owner should apologize to the other hiker, immediately compensate the intruded-upon other hiker for the cost of the bear spray, then leaving the trail to take him mutt home, since he and it together just proved they can't handle the requirement to not affect other people with their dog.

2) That loose dogs not close to or voice-controlled by owners, can legitimately be shot on sight. One day, I'd like to see a bounty system ($200.00 minimum) set up on them, to be paid for by the irresponsible owners. As Ridge laudably worded it, "On the leash or on the grill -- owner's choice."

3) That dogs should NEVER come within 50' of a trail shelter with one exception, even if the shelter is vacant, it's after dark, and the weather s*cks. Another hiker might come along, and shouldn't be forced into either having to tell you to move your dog 100 yards down the Trail, or to put up with it wrongly being there. (The exception is if the Trail passes close to the shelter. In that case, the dog and owner should pass on by the shelter without pausing.)

4) If your dog is not on a sturdy leash 100% (NOT 99.999%) of the time you are outdoors off your property, you are a stupid @sshole not fit to own animals or hike public trails. Period. Even if the terrain is such that you can't easily hike with a leashed dog, that doesn't get you out of the leash requirement; it just means your inadequacies mean you don't belong on that trail section til you get the dog home. I don't care if that's not (yet) enforced by LEOs there or your dog is so highly trained to voice it's a working circus dog. Other hikers don't know if your dog is that well trained, and shouldn't have to worry about it attacking them, BC a leash was just way too expensive for your small income to afford, or too complicated for your smaller brain to operate. Anyway, most dogowners that believe their dogs are reliably trained to voice discipline are provably wrong.

5) I believe it is a reasonable act, if a bozo brings a dog into a shelter or occupied campsite, to place a piece of food heavily laced with a laxative on one's gear, for a nice surprise for the owner later, when the dog is lying on his sleeping bag/in his tent. (A baited mousetrap there is a legitimate option IMO as well.) If the dog comes into fully-claimed space, and has a bad result, that result is all, and I mean ALL, on the head of the owner, who should have controlled his dog. No hiker should be forced to put up with a dog coming into his space and making him feel threatened, getting into his food, stepping with dirty feet on his clothes and bedding, etc., even for a second.

6) I completely dislike and disagree with the current "therapy dog" loophole some jerkoff dogowners use to legally (if not morally) get away with bringing dogs into trail sections where they know perfectly well companion dogs are best not brought. If someone is so emotionally fragile that they can't function even briefly without a living teddy bear around, IMO they need to be at home getting daily therapy from a psychiatrist until they are normally functional, perhaps even institutionalized until that day when they can hike without a dog.

7) If you own a particularly large breed, say, anything over 50 pounds, especially one that has a reputation for being a biter (chow, pit bull, bull terrier, mastiff, wolf mix, German Shepherd, etc.), it should be muzzled while off your property and outside your (doors/windows all closed) vehicle.

8) If a dog does cause any property damage, the dog owner should IMMEDIATELY and apologetically fully compensate the injured party in cash. (Dog owners should always carry extra cash for this likelihood.)

9) If you bring a dog onto a hiking trail on public land, you should shorten your dog's leash to under 3 feet, step off the trail, and pull your dog to your side farthest from the other hiker, until he is well past.

10) If your dog starts to bark, especially between 2100-0800 hours and/or anywhere within hearing distance of a shelter/campsite with any other people present, but really anywhere on public land, you have an inescapable responsiblity to IMMEDIATELY silence your dog by physical methods. (Ineffectively crooning "Shushie-poo, Mr. Tiddles!" over and over for hours in the middle of the night while your dog makes more noise than 2 Cub Scout troops the day after Halloween doesn't cut it.) If you haven't the fortitude to spank it when it needs it, then you'd have nothing left in the way of honorable options but to stop whereever you are, grasp your dog around the muzzle firmly enough it can't bark, and stay like that til it no longer wants to bark, however long it takes.

11) Dogs in water sources: NO! How complicated is that? If it's a tiny stream, carry it over or walk around. Bring water to your dog, tied/staked a distance away.

12) Bury your dog's poop as you would your own. That means if Rover dumps on the Trail, pick it up and walk away from the Trail, and cathole it 6"+ deep.

13) And, for the sake of other hikers who don't deserve to have yet another service provider decide to shut down due to jerk dog-carting hikers, don't bring your dog anywhere near hostels and motels that don't allow them. If it starts to rain, that doesn't mean the rules get bent. It means you tent in the rain with your dog, away from other hikers, a warm room, and soft bed, as you decided you'd often have to do when you inexplicably brought a DOG on your LD hike.

14) Dogs make thruhikes sufficiently more expensive, complicated, and less pleasant for everyone (owner AND other hikers) to the point I don't see why an informed, considerate hiker would bring one. Dogs are routinely so intrusive on other people's hikes that it's respecting their right to allow them to HTOHs. Anyway, dogs can't even generally (except for service ones) legally hike the whole trail, so normally can't thruhike anyway. Lastly, dogs have such poor odds at making it so much as 1000 miles anyway, that it's as dumb as it is cruel to the dog to take one on a LD hike(too likely to run off and get lost forever, find a skunk/porcupine/bear, get out in traffic, get lamed longterm, etc.).

Take Barky with you on day walks in your local park or around your neighborhood, fine. But when it comes time for overnight hiking, especially on marked trails, do right by everyone including your presumably-loved pet, and leave him at home, where he'll be safe until your return.

Even God only had ten rules for Moses.

sofaking
04-09-2008, 12:37
Even God only had ten rules for Moses.
ha ha:clap

Appalachian Tater
04-09-2008, 12:37
On #9, I meant when a dog owner encounters another hiker on the Trail. Leashes should IMO not exceed 6' in length on marked trails in any event.No footnotes, either.

A-Train
04-09-2008, 12:38
cell hiker. they don't bother me. it's the norm on the AT these days

Yeah no issues from me either. I carry one now, since I've been sucked into long-term contracts. I think more people now are carrying cells than not. It was not uncommon to see PCTers searching for service at the top of a ridge with a view. It's part of reality today, people are dependent on their information, contact, etc.

If people are responsible and respectful with their phones, I don't see a problem. Blabbing on them in the woods near others is disrespectful, but calling your wife to tell her you're ok seems fine to me, if you're alone.

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 12:38
Even God only had ten rules for Moses.

The Jewish Law had thousands of rules. And, any of my rules or judgements you specifically disagree with, please feel free to give me your premises and reasoning why.

Appalachian Tater
04-09-2008, 12:45
The Jewish Law had thousands of rules. And, any of my rules or judgements you specifically disagree with, please feel free to give me your premises and reasoning why.Nobody's going to read that giant billboard. I see "Shushie-poo, Mr. Tiddles!" bolded so likely anyone who might actually get something out of it is going to be so put off they wouldn't finish it if they started. I'm criticizing the form, not the substance, because the presentation makes it difficult to absorb the meaning. Is this a chapter of your upcoming book?

Tin Man
04-09-2008, 12:48
The Jewish Law had thousands of rules. And, any of my rules or judgements you specifically disagree with, please feel free to give me your premises and reasoning why.

Rules? There ain't no rules, except in certain Parks. We don't need no stinkin' rules, just less selfish fools.

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 12:49
Nobody's going to read that giant billboard.

Well, if a dogowner can't read for 5 minutes straight, they certainly won't have the attention span to trail-train a dog. You are apparently describing most dog owners reading here, then.

"Is this a chapter of your upcoming book?"

Yes, dogs are a covered subject, but the above is not lifted directly from it.

Appalachian Tater
04-09-2008, 12:51
Yes, dogs are a covered subject, but the above is not lifted directly from it.It's okay to lift stuff from your own writing. It's called "promotion".

SGT Rock
04-09-2008, 12:57
I'd have to say shooting dogs on sight.

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 13:01
I'd have to say shooting dogs on sight.

Is something I didn't say was legal now, but that IMO it should become so. However, I was referring to loose dogs, approaching, with no controlling owner nearby.

No hiker should have to put up with some idiot's loose dog biting them. Neither should they have to let it start biting them before they are allowed to take defensive action.

SGT Rock
04-09-2008, 13:04
Well, based on rules about shooting, hunting, and a few state and federal regulations I don't think "shooting on sight" is a good idea. So as you said, state what you have a problem with and I did. I think having people blowing away unatended dogs is not only a worse solution to the problem than the problem is, it also has other embeded issues in that whole notion.

For one thing what sort of gun do you plan to carry to use when it is authorized?

warraghiyagey
04-09-2008, 13:20
I suppose shooting a dog on sight is one solution. Somehow I've managed over the years not to feel that as an option. It likely says more about the shooter than it does about a situation many of us have been encountered with.

uwharriebackpacker
04-09-2008, 13:20
well...i can deal with the cell phone guy. at least his batteries will hopefully die. someone being careless in letting their dog roam is more of an issue for me. i dont know that your dog wont bite when it approaches me and your not around. also......question for ya'll.....ever had someones dog roaming free and come to check out your tent/gear and take a leak all over it ?? not really my idea of fun, happened to my tent at grayson highlands a few yrs back.

Tin Man
04-09-2008, 13:24
If a dog attacks you, wrap a jacket/coat/sweater around one arm and let him bite in. Using your free arm, grab him by the privates (or her by the belly) and slam him with all your might against a tree or rock to break his back. Problem solved. [Learned this trick in some sort of survival manual.]

Of course, shooting or stabbing is easier, if you are sufficiently armed.

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 13:25
For one thing what sort of gun do you plan to carry to use when it is authorized?

My choice for effective defense against loose dogs on the AT would remain max-concentration bear spray. It can be used at a lower level of provocation, and is likewise more usable for possible defense against dog owners irrationally aggrieved that you sprayed their dog to get its teeth out of your leg.

I don't think a firearm passes cost/benefit assessment for me on the vast majority of the AT. (CDT, somewhat different story, and IMO mandated for off-pavement in AK.) That said, one to use on a dog (the main reason to bring one while hiking the AT) needs to be one that'd be effective on humans as well, dogs of any size being at least as tough to bring down quickly enough. A .25 caliber pistol just doesn't cut it for either; the saying about one is, "it's a handy thing to have if you don't have a gun.". ;)

I figure at least a .38 Special (50% average knockdown chance on a human, for comparison) would be appropriate, though a .45 would be better (80% average), if heavier/bulkier. A .357 magnum/.44 magnum/larger (.454 Casull, or .500 caliber S & W Alaska model) are IMO only really appropriate for hiking in areas where grizzlies/mountain lions are reasonably possible, in which case a long gun would arguably make more sense. I like the .45-70 (standard round for the U.S. Army for wiping out buffalo as part of the victorious wars against the plains Indians), or for small/broke people a minimum-barrel-length 12-gauge with 5 rifled slugs for that situation. A .330/.338 magnum rifle is IMO too much gun for most people, while a .270/.308 isn't enough stopping power for a grizz without lucky shot placement.

References previously read I drew upon for the above: "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massaad Ayoob", and "Mark of the Grizzly".

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 13:26
I suppose shooting a dog on sight is one solution. Somehow I've managed over the years not to feel that as an option. It likely says more about the shooter than it does about a situation many of us have been encountered with.

Some hikers are men, and some are prey.

SGT Rock
04-09-2008, 13:26
I think the results would be a new thread: "What to do about all the shooting by knuckleads in the wilderness"

Bad idea.

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 13:28
If a dog attacks you, wrap a jacket/coat/sweater around one arm and let him bite in. Using your free arm, grab him by the privates (or her by the belly) and slam him with all your might against a tree or rock to break his back. Problem solved.



Over an adjacent cliff or into (if out west) into cactus would seemingly work well also.

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 13:31
I think the results would be a new thread: "What to do about all the shooting by knuckleads in the wilderness"



The statistics about concealed-carry permit holders show that they are far more likely to use a weapon appropriately than criminally. Gun owners are much more responsible as a group than anti-gun types believe.

Tin Man
04-09-2008, 13:35
The statistics about concealed-carry permit holders show that they are far more likely to use a weapon appropriately than criminally. Gun owners are much more responsible as a group than anti-gun types believe.

Yes, but what about dog hunters? :-?

SGT Rock
04-09-2008, 13:35
Don't pigeon hole me as anti-gun. I think that would be a huge mistake. I can't even begin to understand why you started your last post like that in response to me unless you just wanted to troll.

What I am saying is that there are already rules against discharging firearms in and around other people. You idea of shooting unaccompanied dogs is not only a little dangerous, it ignores most of that which was often put into place by people that are gun owners and do shoot. You have so many other options for dealing with an unattended animal that shooting is a little extreme. Of course, given your posting history I believe that was your intent.

Anyway, shooting dogs on sight is still a bad idea.

sofaking
04-09-2008, 13:35
munching popcorn...:-?...munch, munch,..swigs beer:clap...swig, swig, munch...

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 13:46
"Don't pigeon hole me as anti-gun."

That was neither my intent nor (I believe) my wording.


"What I am saying is that there are already rules against discharging firearms in and around other people."

Yes, there are, but: 1) I advocate those rules being changed, and 2) self-defense is a higher right than other people not wanting to hear gunfire. The only question IMO is where to draw the line, to say "that loose dog charging towards me comes this far, and no farther.".

Anyway, if a grossly irresponsible dogowner knew that there was a chance of someone legally shooting their loose dog, surely it would reduce the odds they'd make the choice of setting it loose on public land to endanger other people. Same psychology as "must-issue" CC-permit states having a drop in muggings; every innocent person is made safer this way.

"Anyway, shooting dogs on sight is still a bad idea."

I don't advocate changing the laws to allow for shooting all dogs by any stretch of the imagination. Rather, loose dogs with no owner apparently nearby/within voice-control distance is what I favor, especially if the dog is rapidly approaching. I would never consider poppig a cap off at some dachshund barking its head off at a squirrel it had treed, even if legal.

KirkMcquest
04-09-2008, 13:47
The statistics about concealed-carry permit holders show that they are far more likely to use a weapon appropriately than criminally. Gun owners are much more responsible as a group than anti-gun types believe.

If you go trying to shoot a dog around me, then the law will be the least of your worries. I don't bring my dog on the A.T, there are just too many a-holes like yourself. I prefer to bring him on less populated trails.

If some jerk were to shoot a dog in front of me I'd take that gun away and put him in a wheel chair. His wife would be changing his diapers for the next 30 or so years.

KirkMcquest
04-09-2008, 13:50
"Don't pigeon hole me as anti-gun."

That was neither my intent nor (I believe) my wording.


"What I am saying is that there are already rules against discharging firearms in and around other people."

Yes, there are, but: 1) I advocate those rules being changed, and 2) self-defense is a higher right than other people not wanting to hear gunfire. The only question IMO is where to draw the line, to say "that loose dog charging towards me comes this far, and no farther.".

And MY line is drawn here. You shoot a dog, you get stomped till you sh#t blood.

SGT Rock
04-09-2008, 13:55
"Yes, there are, but: 1) I advocate those rules being changed, and 2) self-defense is a higher right than other people not wanting to hear gunfire. The only question IMO is where to draw the line, to say "that loose dog charging towards me comes this far, and no farther.".
I don't think it is a question in the end of them not wanting to hear gunfire, I think it is a cost/benefit Analysis. Or actually, more to the point, a risk assessment.

The chance of someone getting mauled by a running, unattended dog in the back country is pretty slim. Chances are better getting attacked in your neighborhood by the next door neighbor's dog.

The results of getting bit most of the time are also fairly minor, despite the big headline stories that are out.

on the other hand...

Increasing the chances of unwanted discharges, the seriousness of a gunshot wound is pretty high, and the overall desired level of protection will not always be achived by shooting (trust me I have shot well over a hundred of dogs).

In the end, with the other possible controls that exist. Authorizing " loose dogs not close to or voice-controlled by owners, can legitimately be shot on sight" or "a bounty system ($200.00 minimum) set up on them" is not a good idea. I also imagine that there would be the case where the dog owner, also armed, claimed self defense when shooting the 'defender' and with only one person left to tell the tale, the issue would be a mess.

Best not to promote that lame course of action.

sofaking
04-09-2008, 13:56
If you go trying to shoot a dog around me, then the law will be the least of your worries. I don't bring my dog on the A.T, there are just too many a-holes like yourself. I prefer to bring him on less populated trails.

If some jerk were to shoot a dog in front of me I'd take that gun away and put him in a wheel chair. His wife would be changing his diapers for the next 30 or so years.
crazy talk...jackie chan. NO ONE should confront an armed person if they are not at risk of personal injury.

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 14:02
If you go trying to shoot a dog around me, then the law will be the least of your worries. I don't bring my dog on the A.T, there are just too many a-holes like yourself. I prefer to bring him on less populated trails.

If some jerk were to shoot a dog in front of me I'd take that gun away and put him in a wheel chair. His wife would be changing his diapers for the next 30 or so years.

1) You sound as if you believe a dog's "right" to unprovokedly threaten or attack a human being exceeds that person's right to efficiently prevent that threat or attack. Most people, and the law, hold that their right NOT to be unprovokedly menaced or injured is higher. FYI, dogs that kill people, even with cause (defending home against burglars) are normally killed by the authorities afterwards, which indicates what the justice system feels about that situation.

2) If you think that attacking someone who is wielding a firearm they just proved was loaded is a reasonable act, you surely either plan to shoot them yourself, or don't care about the high risk you'll get shot yourself as they in turn defend themselves against you. If the former, it would arguably be legally without cause, which means you're looking at risking decades in maximum-security prison or execution over choosing some stray mutt over a fellow human being.

I seriously hope you don't have anyone in your life that you're responsible for, as if this is the way you make potentially life-altering decisions, you're not likely to always be there to carry out your responsibilities.

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 14:04
[quote=SGT Rock;590292]
I have shot well over a hundred of dogs

quote]

Tin Man
04-09-2008, 14:06
If you go trying to shoot a dog around me, then the law will be the least of your worries. I don't bring my dog on the A.T, there are just too many a-holes like yourself. I prefer to bring him on less populated trails.

If some jerk were to shoot a dog in front of me I'd take that gun away and put him in a wheel chair. His wife would be changing his diapers for the next 30 or so years.

There was another thread about a guy with a gun protecting himself from dogs. The irate owner charged the hiker/gun owner and ended up dead. The shooter is fighting to get out of jail.

SGT Rock
04-09-2008, 14:06
I've got lots of 'em. When are you coming out this way again. It is something best done over an adult beverage.

I'll just say this: On my first tour in Iraq, feral dogs were a huge problem and there was no 'Humane Society Approved' method of dealing with them. There is more to the story.

le loupe
04-09-2008, 14:08
If you go trying to shoot a dog around me, then the law will be the least of your worries. I don't bring my dog on the A.T, there are just too many a-holes like yourself. I prefer to bring him on less populated trails.

If some jerk were to shoot a dog in front of me I'd take that gun away and put him in a wheel chair. His wife would be changing his diapers for the next 30 or so years.

...just some more of the big talk that occurs on an anonymous online forum

Nice work, Sgt Rock, on all your posts.

I even read all 14 commandments, but laughed out loud at the Mr. Tiddles part

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 14:10
I've got lots of 'em. When are you coming out this way again. It is something best done over an adult beverage.

I'll just say this: On my first tour in Iraq, feral dogs were a huge problem and there was no 'Humane Society Approved' method of dealing with them. There is more to the story.

I'd be pleased and honored to buy the beverages. (You might like hearing a few of the tales my father told me from his 2 1/2 combat tours in Nam.)

SGT Rock
04-09-2008, 14:13
I'd be pleased and honored to buy the beverages. (You might like hearing a few of the tales my father told me from his 2 1/2 combat tours in Nam.)
Sounds good. When will you be in the AO?

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 14:14
There was another thread about a guy with a gun protecting himself from dogs. The irate owner charged the hiker/gun owner and ended up dead. The shooter is fighting to get out of jail.

There was another one posted on WB where a man with a gun was attacked by dogs, where he shot and killed the nearby dogowner, and was acquitted on grounds of self-defense. Apparently the logic was that the dogowner was wielding the dogs as a weapon as surely as if he'd swung a lead pipe at the gunholder, who was minding his own business. (There was nothing in the article about the dogowner yelling "Sic'em" or the like at the time, either." Legally, there's no requirement to try to shoot the gun out of the hand of someone who's attacking you with one, so that makes sense IMO.

minnesotasmith
04-09-2008, 14:15
Sounds good. When will you be in the AO?

I'll be in your Area of Operations, if I can get off work (still up in air). Certainly, within the next 3 months.

BTW, thank you for your service.

SGT Rock
04-09-2008, 14:17
Your welcome Smitty. Let me know ahead of time when you come out this way. I may be on the trail again soon. Of course, then again, I may be off for longer as well.

BobTheBuilder
04-09-2008, 14:19
This seems like a no brainer to me. I'm a dog owner and an animal lover, but I have seen people with out of control dogs making a mess on the trail. From the wet, muddy dog that ran into the Hawk Mountain shelter and laid on the down sleeping bag of someone who had gone to the privy, to the ladies at Woods Hole who told me to stay far enough away from their growling dog so that he couldn't bite me, I have seen a lot of bad dog (really dog owner) behavior. I have never encountered bad cell phone behavior. I have seen alot of people call their spouse or whoever when they stop for the night to check in, but I have never seen anyone just chatting. Who has that much battery, anyway?

KirkMcquest
04-09-2008, 14:35
1) You sound as if you believe a dog's "right" to unprovokedly threaten or attack a human being exceeds that person's right to efficiently prevent that threat or attack. Most people, and the law, hold that their right NOT to be unprovokedly menaced or injured is higher. FYI, dogs that kill people, even with cause (defending home against burglars) are normally killed by the authorities afterwards, which indicates what the justice system feels about that situation.

2) If you think that attacking someone who is wielding a firearm they just proved was loaded is a reasonable act, you surely either plan to shoot them yourself, or don't care about the high risk you'll get shot yourself as they in turn defend themselves against you. If the former, it would arguably be legally without cause, which means you're looking at risking decades in maximum-security prison or execution over choosing some stray mutt over a fellow human being.

I seriously hope you don't have anyone in your life that you're responsible for, as if this is the way you make potentially life-altering decisions, you're not likely to always be there to carry out your responsibilities.

I don't think a dog has the right to attack you. My dog loves everybody. He sometimes runs toward people because he thinks everybody is his friend. He has no conception of aggression. If you shoot my dog simply for moving towards you, your going to have a problem. I love dogs, I'm a dog guy and yes, I carry on the trail.

Lone Wolf
04-09-2008, 14:37
your dog should always be leashed

KirkMcquest
04-09-2008, 14:39
your dog should always be leashed

YOU should be leashed.

SGT Rock
04-09-2008, 14:40
I think folks have had their says.

Closed thread.