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saimyoji
11-26-2005, 15:19
Muscle Cramps & Fatigue: What is it and how can I avoid it? (or deal with it once Iím in pain.)
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There are a couple of reasons for muscle cramping. Being dehydrated, not having enough salts, or electrolytes in your blood, over-heating, over-use and oxygen debt are a few that come to mind.
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Cramping is a result of muscle tissue inability to contract properly. Muscle contractions rely on a delicate balance of ions in and outside (in the blood and interstitial fluids that surround) your muscle cells. When the ion balance is upset, the muscle cell goes into a state of prolonged contraction: the muscle tissue locking in a contracted position, straining on other tissues, hence the pain of the cramp. Remember pain is your body telling you something is wrong, you donít want to mask it with Ibuprofen or something.
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How can I avoid muscle cramping caused by ionic imbalance? Keep a diet high in electrolytes, drink sports drinks (Gatorade, Powerade, etc.) and stay hydrated. Remember to keep a balance in your diet. If you are eating salty meals, you probably donít need the sports drinks. But if your meals are very low salt, you may need the supplement. Donít just drink water. Recent studies have shown that (for ultra-marathoners, IronMan-ers and such activities), after a while, drinking only water (with no electrolytes in it) will actually be bad for you (dilutes the muscle tissue in the heart to the point of heart muscles cramping (heart attack)), and has led to the deaths of some athletes.
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Long term oxygen debt is another reason why muscles may cramp or develop fatigue. Cellular respiration is the process of converting sugars into useable energy (ATP). You need oxygen for cellular respiration to occur. This is called aerobic respiration, and it provides your cells with lots of energy (~36 ATP). When you perform exercise for long periods of time, the amount of oxygen available to your tissues (muscle cells) is reduced. This is one reason you breath harder during exercise (another is to get rid of by-products of respiration, like CO2). When you donít provide enough oxygen to the cells another process takes over: anaerobic respiration. Anaerobic respiration is a technique that many life-forms use to get energy, but it is much less efficient that aerobic respiration (16 times less efficient!!). Fermentation is another name for anaerobic respiration; yeast (think beer), and some bacteria (think yogurt, kimchee) perform fermentation. When yeast performs fermentation, it makes alcohol. When muscle cells perform fermentation, the result is lactic acid. Lactic acid is actually poisonous to cells and must be broken down rapidly, or injury to the cells may occur. Lactic acid build-up is what causes muscle soreness after exercise, and may contribute to cramping. The kicker is, not only is anaerobic respiration much less efficient, but it actually uses up more energy than it creates in breaking down the lactic acid. So its really a big waste of energy in the long run.
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How can I avoid oxygen debt? BREATH. Slow down, enjoy the scenery. Stretching (Iíve learned through experience) will help to flush away some of the by-products of respiration from your cells, and will help to get the blood flowing and speed up gas exchange to the cells, speeding up recovery (recovery is when oxygen can get into the cells, lactic acid is broken down and washed away and the muscles are ready for aerobic respiration again). A phenomenon experienced by long distance athletes, runners, competitive swimmers (like me) is tolerance. These athletes do hypoxic training: training at low oxygen levels (basically means breathing less). Your muscle cells adapt to the low oxygen conditions and adjust performance so that they can perform like normal in a low oxygen state. Then, when you go back to normal oxygen levels, they perform even better. So over time you will Ďget used toí having less oxygen and wonít experience as much soreness after exercise. There are formula drinks on the market (Cytomax) that contain enzymes that help break down lactic acid, leading to decreased muscle soreness. These do work, but you have to drink it regularly over a period of time (weeks), not just take a shot when your muscles are sore.

Dehydration is another reason that muscle cramping or fatigue may occur. Anytime you upset the balance of water in your body, many of the chemical reactions will suffer. Most notably, I find my muscles and brain cells are affected first. Dehydration is easy to fix, drink slowly, continuously. Donít drink a liter of water in one gulp! The sudden influx of water may result in vomiting, diarrhea, stomach cramps, etc. When rehydrating, make sure to drink electrolytes.
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Overuse and overheating are two other things that may disrupt muscle performance. Easy to fix, take breaks, cool off. Take a zero day here and there, stick your head in the waterfall (Moose do much worse!) Basically listen to your body. If you are tired, donít push it. Forcing a couple of extra miles may cost you many more later on down the road.
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Stretching before/after excercise has proven to be of little scientific help to muscle performance, save to prepare the tissue for further use (increases blood flow and gas/nutrient exchange. Long term, serious stretching/flexibility training is required to make a noticeable difference in flexibility, muscle elasticity (do yoga for six months before your hike). This will increase performance and reduce the chance of injury due to tears, pulls and stress fractures.
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saimyoji
11-27-2005, 12:20
reminding people that this section exists...if you have input, please speak up.

SGT Rock
11-27-2005, 15:30
Chances are the article is so good they have nothing to add. I intend to clean up some of the Word inserted crap before the thing is finalized.

SGT Rock
12-04-2005, 09:04
Hey Saimyoji, I got to thinking about this yesterday - what about the next day or two when muscles are sore and/or cramping?

saimyoji
12-04-2005, 09:59
Good question.

Long Term Issues

Muscle soreness is caused by lactic acid build-up. The longer/harder you force the muscles to work in oxygen debt, the more lactic acid will build up, the sorer your muscles will be the next day, or two, or three....Its not uncommon to have sore muscles for several days after hard exercise. Especially if you are out of shape to begin with. When you are out of shape, your muscles haven't been conditioned to deal with the lactic acid as they are when you are in shape. See the section where I talk about tolerance.

For example...You haven't been to the gym in a while, say months, or years. The first day you go in and try to lift like you always did when you were younger. You will HURT for the next week or so. You need to take it easy. You should slowly get your muscles accustomed to the exercise regimen. After training for a few weeks, months, your muscles are conditioned to deal with the lactic acid. At the molecular level, your muscles cells become activated to produce more of the enzyme that breaks down lactic acid, thus reducing l.a. levels more quickly, thus less soreness. When you haven't conditioned the muscles, the cells aren't making this enzyme, thus it takes longer to break down the lactic acid, more soreness.

One other consideration with sore muscles: Many people go to the gym, walk, run, cycle etc....for exercise. But when you get out and actually do the event you're training for, you use many muscles you probably haven't been training. Running around in your neighborhood doesn't require you to use many of the same muscles you'll end up using when you're actually on the trail. The only way to really train for something is to actually do it over and over and over and over.....

Cramping is pain caused by severe muscle contraction. Cramping is usually associated with nutrition. (Getting enough electrolytes to the muscle cells). Remember that dehydration, overheating, overuse can also lead to cramps. While soreness should be expected to last a few days, cramping shouldn't. Usually you can work out a cramp in a few minutes (by stretching and massage) and be fine. Muscles that have been abused over many hundreds of miles with no rest are more likely to cramp up. While I stated earlier that stretching doesn't help performance very much, it can reduce the likelihood of cramps (pulls, strains as well).

Two things about cramps: They may be caused by electrical misfiring of the muscle tissue. This is also what causes muscle spasms. Let the spasm go and it will sort itself out. Or massage it away. The other thing is stronger muscles get stronger cramps. A cramp in these stronger muscles will probably hurt more as it can put more stress on the surrounding tissues.

I don't know of any sure-fire ways to eliminate cramps, other than to eat/drink well enough, and stretch....and breathe.

SGT Rock
12-04-2005, 14:13
Good stuff. The other day I was moving gravel, some muscles in my shoulders starting hurting a couple of days later - I guess muscle groups that aren't normally worked when I do my normal work out or something. Anyway...

If you can work the info about avoiding and dealing with long term muscle cramps. and your original stuff into a new post, I'll clean it up for format and get it into a released article status.

Thanks!

DLFrost
12-04-2005, 15:39
There are a couple of reasons for muscle cramping. Being dehydrated, not having enough salts, or electrolytes in your blood, over-heating, over-use and oxygen debt are a few that come to mind.
There's one other cause I haven't seen mentioned here, and that's continuous exposure to cold. The body's tissues operate best within a fairly narrow range, around 70 degrees. Too much above or below that and malfunctions occur. Cold-cramping is more likely to occur in muscles that are exposed, particularly in the legs, because they don't have surrounding tissues (fats, other muscles) to help retain heat. Recovery is slow because reheating takes time, only after which can metabolic resupply and waste removal occur efficiently.

Some hammock campers have been finding this out the hard way when using torso-length pads. Their calves rest directly against the hammock fabric, which (because of convective cooling) chills down the muscles. Later on they wake up with cramps.

When it's cold out warmth should be retained in the legs and excess heat vented from the waist up. That way generous circulation is maintained (warm feet!) and joints function smoothly. (This is why athletes have traditionally used "warm-up" clothing for morning runs, weightlifting, etcetera--to protect the joints and maximize training performance.)

Doug Frost

English Stu
12-04-2005, 18:16
Its a good idea to start your training by walking/running every other day,when fitter do recuperative exercise on alternate days -gives time for muscles to grow and the exercise flushes out the lactic in the muscles.Getting used to stretching after exercise is worthwhile.Warm up first if stretching is thought necessary before the hike i.e after half a mile.

saimyoji
12-04-2005, 18:41
Sorry for not responding DLFrost. I'm still thinking on how to incorporate your comments into the article.

Stu: This article is not about training for the hike, nor about stretching, though that would be a good article to do. Maybe you, or someone could do that article and include what I've written as a part of it.

I've some more additions/changes to make, Rock, so hold tight for awhile so I can get it sorted out. May take a few days.

HikeLite
12-05-2005, 00:13
I think self massage of leg muscles and stretching after a hike is beneficial in decreasing potential muscle soreness and prevention of overuse injury such as iliotibial band syndrome.

SGT Rock
12-05-2005, 08:09
Something I was told was after strenuous exercise such as running, light use and stretching of the same muscles helped the body to remove the lactic acids from these muscles. If this is true, then walking around camp slowly without a pack after a long day would help prevent cramps.

saimyoji
12-05-2005, 19:34
Yeah..it seems the science on stretching has changed since I was a kid. We used to be told that stretching prepares the muscles for activity, warms them up and increases flexibility.

The most recent studies suggest NOT stretching to warm up. The theory is that cold muscles are less elastic, stretching when cold will only serve to increase the chance of strains, pulls. Stretching after exercise is much better as your muscles are warm and more elastic.

Stretching is great for increasing recovery. I mentioned it but kind of glossed over it. You should stretch after exercising for the following reasons: increases blood flow to the muscles flushing out lactic acid, CO2, other metabolic by-products and replenishes O2, electrolytes, glucose (metabolized during cell respiration), etc.

Techniques for stretching vary from very specific target-style stretching (stretching specific muscles very well) to a more general 'walk it off' type of stretch. For the average thru-hiker I would think the latter good on a daily basis, and target certain muscle groups that begin to get sore after awhile.

Remember that this type of stretching won't increase your flexibility very much. Flexibility training is a science all in itself.

As I said before, I think someone could write a good article on training for the hike, including stretching, and maybe my work could be included as a part of that...

More to come....

DLFrost
12-08-2005, 12:14
Something I was told was after strenuous exercise such as running, light use and stretching of the same muscles helped the body to remove the lactic acids from these muscles. If this is true, then walking around camp slowly without a pack after a long day would help prevent cramps.
It's also been reported that easy-going walking or swimming on "off" days helps recovery. This makes sense because muscle takes from two days to as much as a week to both recover and adapt to an overload. Having enhanced blood flow through the area during this period speeds recovery by removing catabolic wastes and providing anabolic supplies. This also explains the application of heat (pads, hottub soaks, etc.) as a traditional remedy for soreness.

Doug Frost

Odd Man Out
05-17-2012, 14:57
...This is called aerobic respiration, and it provides your cells with lots of energy (~36 ATP)...

Not really complete or accurate. He means 36 molecules of ATP produced for every molecule of glucose catabolized. However this calculation is based on traditional and overly optimistic P/O ratios. A number of 30 ATP/glc would be more accurate. But this is not a fixed value and thus can only be an estimate and thus not particularly relevent.


...Lactic acid is actually poisonous to cells and must be broken down rapidly, or injury to the cells may occur. Lactic acid build-up is what causes muscle soreness after exercise, and may contribute to cramping. The kicker is, not only is anaerobic respiration much less efficient, but it actually uses up more energy than it creates in breaking down the lactic acid...

You body has natural mechanisms for preventing excessive LA accumulation, so saying that it is "toxic" is unnecessarily alarming. Anaerobic metabolism is indeed less efficient, but also more powerful. This is why it is necessary for short term bursts of energy, but can't be relied upon for long term. Thus it is not a "big waste of energy" and really isn't something to worry about. The idea that anaerobic respiration "uses up more energy than it creates in breaking down the lactic acid" make no sense.


...There are formula drinks on the market (Cytomax) that contain enzymes that help break down lactic acid, leading to decreased muscle soreness...

This sounds like snake oil to me. Lactate is converted to pyruvate using the enzyme Lactate Dehydrogenase. Pyruvate is catabolized to CO2 via pyruvate dehydrogenase and the citric acid cycle. Enzymes (like LDH and PDH) are proteins which are large macromolecules. They will be digested to amino acids in your digestive system and would have no effect on LA in the blood. In fact the Cytomax web site says that the product contains a polymer of lactic acid as an energy source (so it actualy provides LA, not an enzyme to to help break it down) and the study cited on the web site contradicts the previous quote and confirms what I said above about LA being an energy source (not a "toxic...waste of energy").

The bottom line: Don't over do it, stay hydrated, eat a balance diet, and keep hydrated - Duh!

Also, don't waste your money on products advertised to improve athletic performance (i.e. avoid snake oil)

rocketsocks
05-17-2012, 21:29
It's threads like these that drive home the fact,that I don't S--t,very cool.

lostinfflood
05-18-2012, 05:26
Muscle soreness is NOT caused by lactate accumulation. That is the old belief. Lactate (at physiological pH lactic acid is in the form of lactate) is actually removed from the muscles within a few hours and, as described above, converted back into pyruvate. Muscle soreness is due to mircrotears in the muscle filament (cells). With repeated stress, exercise, they actually grow back stronger. Exercise leads to angiogenesis-the formation of new blood vessels. This increases the efficacy of aerobic respiration. Additionally exercise increases the production of more mitochondria further increasing the efficiency of aerobic respiration.

moytoy
05-18-2012, 06:43
I'm pretty much drinking the same Kool Aid as lostinfflood and Odd Man Out but I've always been told and read that protein is needed to regenerate the damaged muscle tissue created in excercise. Over simplified? Maybe but in the case of a long distance hiker who is continually using leg muscles. Isn't it necessary to increase protein intake to help heal the muscle and thus build stronger muscle?

Odd Man Out
05-18-2012, 14:47
I'm pretty much drinking the same Kool Aid as lostinfflood and Odd Man Out but I've always been told and read that protein is needed to regenerate the damaged muscle tissue created in excercise. Over simplified? Maybe but in the case of a long distance hiker who is continually using leg muscles. Isn't it necessary to increase protein intake to help heal the muscle and thus build stronger muscle?

I'm a biochemist, not an exercise physiologist. But it is my opinion that the protein in a balanced diet is probably sufficient. I suspect that the muscle loss reported by some thru hikers is probably due to insufficient calories, not insufficient protein. But if you want more protein, eat more protein. Non-fat dry milk is pure natural protein powder, and is so cheap, they practically give it away. Why pay 100x more for "nutritional supplements"? You are much better off shopping in the grocery aisle rather than the nutritional supplement aisle.

ScottP
05-20-2012, 11:16
The stuff saimoyoji posted seems very outdated. Most of those statements were made at some point by exercise physiology researchers, but have since been proven to be less than true (although some of them only since you wrote the post!).

Odd man out is pretty close to spot on. there's a lot of new and really interesting research about lactate, but I can't say that I understand it thoroughly enough to add much.

Rickard
05-23-2012, 09:36
A lot of that info is still good, but I'll add my 2cents.


RE: Protein/Muscle

In the end it's all about nitrogen balance relative to activity, so protein is always very important; critical even. The reason for this is that it's the single life essential macronutrient that our bodies cannot produce on its own. Need carbs? Nope, look up gluconeogeneses. Fat/triglycerides? Fill the liver up with fructose, the body converts to triglyceride. Overeat, triglyceride .. even with fat free foods at the energy source. Never mind the fact that there is always triglyceride floating around in the blood stream. With the amount of calories consumed by the average hiker though, this is all likely a non-issue. Still, the whole picture is worth a look to set oneself up for success.

It's tough to give a blanket statement for "how much protein?" is enough, because there are many variables to consider. I won't even get into vegetarians or vegans, and the importance of achieving complete amino acid profile. That's essential, and a tangent I will not get into as it will not apply to most who read this.

First and foremost, calorie total is important. The higher it is, the more likely a hiker will be to achieve nitrogen balance. It's near impossible to not get enough protein on a 3,000+ calorie diet. Also, calorie total determines the amount of protein that is needed. Don't sweat the amino profiles, because they all hook up sooner or later .. somewhere in the body. I seriously doubt any meat eater will ever be lacking in any of them, either ... especially on a hiker's diet.

In order of importance;

#1. Set calories - be realistic to yourself.
#2. Set required protein relative to #1(and mayyyyyyybe #3 in some cases, more on why later) (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/protein-intake-while-dieting-qa.html)
( http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/protein-requirements-for-strength-and-power-athletes.html )
#3. Set carbohydrate to personal preference, but consider the article. 2-3g/lb LBM is more than sufficient. ( http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/how-many-carbohydrates-do-you-need.html )#4. Set dietary fat due to personal preference.


Don't worry about timing nutrients or anything like that, you're not Michael Phelps.


To help the numbers jive on your total calories calculator ... Protein and carbohydrates(well, not alcohol sugars .. but I'll get into that) are 4calories per gram. Fat is 9 calories per gram. Alcohol sugars are about 7 calories per gram(in a laboratory), but the reality is that with thermic effects and a bunch of other jargon, it's more like 5.3 when all is said and done.


The lower value # 1 is, the higher #2 value should be for optimal protein sparing. There are too many variables and eating styles for me to give blanket statements, so refer to the articles for you to customize for yourself. Be realistic about what you can eat, and most importantly .. too radical a change will make you miserable and likely more willing to give up on eating optimally. So, try to be smart about how you set this up for those reasons. For you section hikers, overall diet throughout normal living is more important than dialing macronutrients in for the trail. Optimizing ones diet on the trail is a waste of time, if the bigger picture sucks.


A general rule of protein requirements is a heavily debated topic, and it is far from settled. This does not mean we cannot be intelligent about it. Current research gives us numbers, if we stay within the range that research has brought us good things will happen. As for how to calculate that, look at the earlier articles I have linked to. 1g/lb LBM is more than enough in most cases.

Hiking is an incredibly catabolic activity(especially when undernourished); basically it's the breaking down of body proteins(muscle) as fuel. Fat is more efficient at about 3,500 calories of energy per 1lb gained or lost, while muscle mass only provides about 600 calories worth of energy(but not necessarily the same amount of energy required to build it). The body sees muscle as a liability, probably due to the fact that we have large brains .. and can outsmart our prey rather than out muscle it. This means that we have to fight for dear life to hold onto it, and why meatheads take drugs to try and resemble Ronnie Coleman. Yes, our bodies are awesome at keeping us round and weak ... go figure. This is great for survival, but really can kill the swag factor, eh?

Higher protein intake(e.g. 2-3g/kg LBM) is essential to spare protein loss on a caloric deficit, under normal dieting conditions(generally low calorie for sedentary folk). LUCKILY, hikers tend to eat higher carbohydrates and even total calories .. which is also protein sparing even in large deficits. This brings that large 2-3g/kg requirement way down, benefits of the protein sparing effects of carbs/cals. This is good news for most of us who can hoover large amounts of food to compensate(even if only intermittently when thru-hiking trail towns), but those who cannot should take the whole protein thing a bit more seriously. ESPECIALLY those who suffer from celiac disease, or do the whole trending "paleo" or ketogenic type diet. But these people reading my words, likely don't even need the help I am offering here.


Want to build muscle on the trail? Forget it. One cannot build a house without bricks, there simply aren't enough calories available to support it. There is an argument to be made for beginners being able to build muscle at a deficit, but returns become diminishing rather quickly. "But hikerz have large calves and legs". Correct, luckily muscle building is not a linear process. This is done while at rest and at a caloric surplus; the body adapts to life's stresses whenever it can .. just as long as it keeps receiving the stimulus while having adequate recovery time. Hiking burns glycogen(read: fuel stored in the muscle). When this gets depleted, the body will prioritize replenishing it. Read about "glycogen depletion and supercompensation". Not necessary, but it's a pretty interesting process if you're a nerdy fella like myself.




To address the stretching debate, recent research has shown Dynamic Stretching to be far superior relative to Static Stretching for just about every application. Jumping, endurance, muscle strength(eccentric only though, I believe). A quick google search will find you many pubmed studies on the topic.

Odd Man Out
05-23-2012, 14:54
I like Richard's post above. Some nice links. I like the emphasis on basics ("Don't worry about timing nutrients or anything like that, you're not Michael Phelps"). I've noticed a lot of the comments/research on nutrition are geared toward performance athletes trying to run faster/lift more weight, etc... Data on how to cut your 100 m sprint or marathon times by 1% may be important to someone trying to win a race, but I don't think they are especially relevant to someone out for a hike (albeit a very long one). Also comments like " For you section hikers, overall diet throughout normal living is more important than dialing macronutrients in for the trail. Optimizing ones diet on the trail is a waste of time, if the bigger picture sucks." are well received. A focus on long-term health rather than athletic performance is a better investment of my energy.

However, I would caution that too much attention paid to protein can lead people down the wrong path. Richard points out that you can make your own carbs (gluconeogenesis). Yes, but you can only do this from protein (not fat), and this is a very inefficient process. This is what we are trying to avoid. One of the cited articles makes reference to people who, when trying to meet a perceived high need for protein, cut out most everything else from the diet. This creates a huge calorie deficit. In fact, you can't survive on only protein.

I like Richards opening overview:

"First and foremost, calorie total is important. The higher it is, the more likely a hiker will be to achieve nitrogen balance. It's near impossible to not get enough protein on a 3,000+ calorie diet."

This is consistent with my opinion that you need to worry more about calories than protein. I do not worry about getting just the right balance of carbs, fats, and protein. For me that is emotional baggage I don't want to carry (my pack is heavy enough, thank you). Eat a balanced diet and be happy.

Rickard
05-23-2012, 17:12
I like Richard's post above. Some nice links. I like the emphasis on basics ("Don't worry about timing nutrients or anything like that, you're not Michael Phelps"). I've noticed a lot of the comments/research on nutrition are geared toward performance athletes trying to run faster/lift more weight, etc... Data on how to cut your 100 m sprint or marathon times by 1% may be important to someone trying to win a race, but I don't think they are especially relevant to someone out for a hike (albeit a very long one).

Very well said, I wish more people understood that such minutiae is reserved for the most elite of athletes. Joe Schmoe gym goers who waste incredible amounts of money on useless supplements, end up learning this the hard way. Granted, there are a few good supplements to have, but some people tend to make them the entirety of their diet. They are then, no longer "supplements".



Also comments like " For you section hikers, overall diet throughout normal living is more important than dialing macronutrients in for the trail. Optimizing ones diet on the trail is a waste of time, if the bigger picture sucks." are well received. A focus on long-term health rather than athletic performance is a better investment of my energy.

While I COMPLETELY agree with your sentiment, I don't want to confuse my intended point ... which has nothing to do with overall health. I am specifically talking about muscle mass, and how to maintain it. There are ways to adhere to these mentioned parameters, in a very unhealthy way, vice versa. Unfortunately, health is not my specialty .. sports nutrition is! :D



However, I would caution that too much attention paid to protein can lead people down the wrong path. Richard points out that you can make your own carbs (gluconeogenesis). Yes, but you can only do this from protein (not fat), and this is a very inefficient process. This is what we are trying to avoid. One of the cited articles makes reference to people who, when trying to meet a perceived high need for protein, cut out most everything else from the diet. This creates a huge calorie deficit. In fact, you can't survive on only protein.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Gluconeogenesis is one of many processes the body will utilize for fuel when carbs are non-existent in the diet. The brain can run on 75% of its required energy via ketones(created from free fatty acids, not protein) from ketosis. So, the gluconeogenesis part of it really only needs to provide that essential 25% of glucose that the brain needs. As far as it being inefficient, it is at first .. but once full adaptation has taken place it is more than enough to support light to moderate intensity activities like hiking(about 3-4 weeks to adapt fully). Trail running, however ... probably not. This is the reasoning behind cyclical and targeted ketogenic diets, to avoid the inevitable crash that high intensity activities will bring on low carbohydrate intake.

The context within the cited article you mention is not applicable here. Those people who cut everything else out except protein are actually TRYING to create as large deficit as possible. It's not a side effect, but a goal. That's a whole different ballgame, and its focus is fat loss. That strategy should never apply to a hiker, it's simply stupid. What they are doing is called PSMF(Protein Sparing Modified Fast). Which would be silly to do on a hike. It could be mimicked, but the calorie total would have to be bumped up drastically for it to be feasible. I don't know why anybody would ever want to do that to themselves, but it could work just fine in a survival situation where it might be forced.

Also, one can survive on protein alone .. this is proven science and there is no refuting it. Heck, even morbidly obese individuals have been fasted for up to a year successfully. All that is needed is mineral/vitamin supplementation to ward off scurvy, etc ..

If that is what you meant, then I suppose we are both correct. What I was referring to initially was specifically about the single essential macronutrient and nothing else, which only include dietary fat/carbohydrate/protein. Vitamins are a whole other conversation that really has no place here, in my opinion.




I like Richards opening overview:

"First and foremost, calorie total is important. The higher it is, the more likely a hiker will be to achieve nitrogen balance. It's near impossible to not get enough protein on a 3,000+ calorie diet."

This is consistent with my opinion that you need to worry more about calories than protein. I do not worry about getting just the right balance of carbs, fats, and protein. For me that is emotional baggage I don't want to carry (my pack is heavy enough, thank you). Eat a balanced diet and be happy.

Protein is important for those who wish to maintain optimal muscle mass while doing this highly catabolic activity, but I do agree that most should quit with the pedantry. Eat a boat load, balance the diet, be happy and hike(as you said)! Greatness ensues ...

Odd Man Out
05-24-2012, 01:01
With regard to gluconeogenesis being inefficient, I mean that the net energy produced by converting amino acids into sugars and then catabolizing the sugars is less than if you just catabolized sugars and/or amino acids directly.

As for starving on protein only, I got that from what is called rabbit starvation, referring to malnourished hunter/trappers who ate only rabbit. The meat was so lean, they were relying on protein for nearly all their macronutrients. Metabolism of that much protein produces more nitrogen waste than your body can handle, giving a metabolism that is not sustainable. Here is the Wikipedia page. I had a scholarly journal about it from a couple of years ago, but can't find it now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation

Velvet Gooch
05-24-2012, 05:33
With regard to gluconeogenesis being inefficient, I mean that the net energy produced by converting amino acids into sugars and then catabolizing the sugars is less than if you just catabolized sugars and/or amino acids directly.

As for starving on protein only, I got that from what is called rabbit starvation, referring to malnourished hunter/trappers who ate only rabbit. The meat was so lean, they were relying on protein for nearly all their macronutrients. Metabolism of that much protein produces more nitrogen waste than your body can handle, giving a metabolism that is not sustainable. Here is the Wikipedia page. I had a scholarly journal about it from a couple of years ago, but can't find it now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation

Was it the The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition?
Plant-animal subsistence ratios and macronutrient energy estimations in worldwide hunter-gatherer diets
http://www.ajcn.org/content/71/3/682.full

Rickard
05-24-2012, 07:38
With regard to gluconeogenesis being inefficient, I mean that the net energy produced by converting amino acids into sugars and then catabolizing the sugars is less than if you just catabolized sugars and/or amino acids directly.

Right, but it's efficient enough for survival on the trail. Meaning, when balanced nutrition is not available.



As for starving on protein only, I got that from what is called rabbit starvation, referring to malnourished hunter/trappers who ate only rabbit. The meat was so lean, they were relying on protein for nearly all their macronutrients. Metabolism of that much protein produces more nitrogen waste than your body can handle, giving a metabolism that is not sustainable. Here is the Wikipedia page. I had a scholarly journal about it from a couple of years ago, but can't find it now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation

This further proves my earlier point about vitamins/minerals being required to support protein as single energy source(which has been done in a lab successfully). This has nothing to do with the information I am providing here. If these hunters had a multi-vitamin, some vitamin c and a warm bed; the outcome would have been much different. So, "starvation" is a bit of a misnomer in this case.

As for "too much protein produces more nitrogen waste than your body can handle", well ... drinking too much water can also kill you.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/hold-your-wee-wii-lawsuit


This goes for just about anything. Only difference being is that water is much easier to consume. So, unless an individual was abusing protein shakes, it would be near impossible to ingest a lethal amount of whole foods. Nevermind the gag reflex. Cumulative effects of high protein are safe, but suspect of higher risk of certain LONG TERM negative health effects. My argument has always been survival, when all other options have been exhausted .. which still holds water. Health and survival are not the same thing.

Protein foods are very satiating, most would not be physically able to eat more than 400g per day ... which is much less than half of the relative amount that has been shown to produce minor negative health effects. The study I am thinking of was done on rats anyway, for what it's worth.

Rickard
05-24-2012, 07:42
Was it the The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition?
Plant-animal subsistence ratios and macronutrient energy estimations in worldwide hunter-gatherer diets
http://www.ajcn.org/content/71/3/682.full


Probably not, this is aimed at the "paleo" culture that has been growing over the past 5 years or so. There is a ridiculous amount of zealotry within, and this article(which I love) makes the point that one can only guess what paleolithic man was eating in his day. Their zealotry is based on pure conjecture, yet they claim it's far superior to the modern western diet. These people are typically found in CrossFit gyms.

Velvet Gooch
05-24-2012, 09:04
Probably not, this is aimed at the "paleo" culture that has been growing over the past 5 years or so. There is a ridiculous amount of zealotry within, and this article(which I love) makes the point that one can only guess what paleolithic man was eating in his day. Their zealotry is based on pure conjecture, yet they claim it's far superior to the modern western diet. These people are typically found in CrossFit gyms.

I was referring to OMO's mention of "rabbit starvation." The article cites hard numbers associated with the syndrome under "Major findings."

Rickard
05-24-2012, 10:20
I was referring to OMO's mention of "rabbit starvation." The article cites hard numbers associated with the syndrome under "Major findings."

Gotcha, I glanced over that part of the article.

This is a case in where we are both right. Protein only diets can be sustainable, but activity levels have to be adjusted to compensate if there is any permanence to it. Does anybody here live on the trail? I would think not. I kind of touched on the processes, but didn't elaborate. The physiology behind it, is that roughly more like 400g that is the maximum the body can metabolize to glucose in a day. The rest of the intake is lost through the urine, leaving only 1600 calories of usable proteins in a day for glucose. Combine this with FFA/ketones via triglyceride/body fat, it's enough for the average person to live on within the context of extended hiking(read: NOT permanent like possible subjects of rabbit starvation). If 20 mile days were the norm, that would obviously have to be adjusted radically for this to work out.

It's really about context, but nobody is wrong. This is a superfluous discussion really and way off track of where the discussion began, but at least we are exploring the most radical scenario of human physiology! :D

Rickard
05-24-2012, 10:53
There is also the hormonal factor to consider. The hypothalamus will lower Basal Metabolic Rate up to 30%(-ish, highest recorded) to run more efficiently when food is scarce. We have quite an advanced survival vessel, and it's quite good even if one doesn't know how to use it optimally. I think there's enough information in this thread, for anyone to calculate a plan for survival in the worst of conditions.

Odd Man Out
05-24-2012, 14:33
It's really about context, but nobody is wrong. This is a superfluous discussion really and way off track of where the discussion began, but at least we are exploring the most radical scenario of human physiology! :D

Yes, even though it isn't very Whiteblaze of us, we can all agree that we are all correct and go over to other treads and argue about carrying guns and cheese. :banana

Spokes
05-24-2012, 15:48
Good question.

Long Term Issues

Muscle soreness is caused by lactic acid build-up. .......

Actually research indicates that statement is a myth:

Read all about lactic acid myths here:

http://running.competitor.com/2010/01/training/the-lactic-acid-myths_7938

Lactic acid isn't foe but fuel:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html

10 Stubborn Myths that Won't Die:

http://lifehacker.com/5895140/10-stubborn-exercise-myths-that-wont-die-debunked-by-science

Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (DOMS):

http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/1346.html


Muscle soreness is NOT caused by lactate accumulation. That is the old belief. ......

Agreed.

rocketsocks
05-24-2012, 19:13
I can remeber huffin and puffin,and someone would ask,"you ok",I would always reply "Yep,I'm just into my sugar"so reading all this has been fastenating.

Rickard
05-25-2012, 08:48
Actually research indicates that statement is a myth:

Read all about lactic acid myths here:

http://running.competitor.com/2010/01/training/the-lactic-acid-myths_7938

Lactic acid isn't foe but fuel:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html

10 Stubborn Myths that Won't Die:

http://lifehacker.com/5895140/10-stubborn-exercise-myths-that-wont-die-debunked-by-science

Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (DOMS):

http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/1346.html



Agreed.

I take issue with this section in the DOMS article. DOMS is actually caused by micro-tears of the muscle fibers during the eccentric portion of the repetition, if anybody cares.


Next-day muscle soreness should be used as a guide to training, whatever your sport. On one day, go out and exercise right up to the burn, back off when your muscles really start to burn, then pick up the pace again and exercise to the burn. Do this exercise-to-the-burn and recover until your muscles start to feel stiff, and then stop the workout. Depending on how sore your muscles feel, take the next day off or go at a very slow pace. Do not attempt to train for muscle burning again until the soreness has gone away completely. Most athletes take a very hard workout on one day, go easy for one to seven days afterward, and then take a hard workout again. World-class marathon runners run very fast only twice a week. The best weightlifters lift very heavy only once every two weeks. High jumpers jump for height only once a week. Shot putters throw for distance only once a week. Exercise training is done by stressing and recovering.


"The Best weightlifters"? Why use elite athletes in an article that mostly average folk will read? Beginner weightlifters typically lift "heavy" three times a week. Intermediate lifters typically, twice per week, and yes .. advanced trainees once per week unless they are doing a peaking cycle for competition. At that point, they could be lifting heavy 5-6 times per week over a period of a month(block periodization). Fatigue is accumulated here, but this is a goal for optimal performance in competition. This is then followed by a large layoff to recover from the abuse. It all has to do with capacity to recover from the stimulus, just as the article states. It's just way more involved than that, but not necessarily complicated.

In strength training beginners recover quickest, believe it or not .. so they can push each workout and make progress very quickly(linear periodization from workout to workout). Intermediates need some sort of weekly periodization, whether it be high volume one day, recovery on day 2, and high intensity/low volume for the third day. On say a Mon/Wed/Fri training week as an example for beginner/intermediate.

Context matters so, so much here .. and these blanket statements just make me want to kick something. Muscle burning during exercise is a symptom of glycogen depletion within a muscle, which is generally achieved through high repetition/short rest interval type training. Hiking can be just that, although the range of motion is mostly limited.

DOMS is generally going to occur when the body is adapting to muscle/soft tissue stress(ligaments, etc ..). Beginners get the worst of it, because they are untrained. Over a few weeks of repeated activity/intensity it will go away mostly if not completely, even if there is some sort of linear progression with volume or load. The body adapts. Throw something new into the mix, and you may go through it again on a lesser scale.

As for "working out for the burn", correlation does not imply causation here. Training in general can cause DOMS, and burninating yourself is only one way to achieve it. If you adapt to it, the DOMS stops. If glycogen depletion is your goal, knock yourself out .. you actually need to train for burn for multiple days in a week. Are you a bodybuilder who is targeting a range to achieve sarcoplasmic hypertrophy? You will probably get some burn, and it doesn't have to be limited as strictly as the article implies. Like everything else, context matters. Depletion trainers tend go for burn on two consecutive nauseating workouts over two days(Lyle McDonald's Ultimate Diet 2.0 is an example). Then there's a third day of moderate depletion two days later. Bodybuilders hit each muscle group twice per week, say 96 hours apart on a typical upper/lower split.

Strength trainers typically work within the 3-5 rep range, which isn't enough to burn glycogen or produce a burn .. nor would they receive any benefit from doing so(unless they are doing Borge Fagerli's myo-reps or something, an exception to the rule). I could really get into this, but I'd rather people just PM me with specifics if they are interested.

For hiking, it's easy .. if you're sore before a hike, do some proper goblet squats to get the blood flowing. Trust me, you will feel much better. Just ease into it, it won't be pretty when you start. It'll go away over a few weeks of repeated activity, but if it really really hurts definitely stop what you are doing. If you cannot, deal with it best as possible until it passes. Zero days/weeks .. whatever! :D

Pedaling Fool
05-25-2012, 10:24
I find all this very interesting, but at the same time kind of useless info. Sore muscles are the least of my worries, in my experience muscles are tough and easily repairable, at least in my experience. It's the joints and connective tissues that I worry about. Muscle soreness comes and goes, no problems, but if you're not careful joints and connective tissue comes and stays for long periods and if you're not careful you can incur permanent damage.

Rickard
05-25-2012, 13:43
I find all this very interesting, but at the same time kind of useless info. Sore muscles are the least of my worries, in my experience muscles are tough and easily repairable, at least in my experience. It's the joints and connective tissues that I worry about. Muscle soreness comes and goes, no problems, but if you're not careful joints and connective tissue comes and stays for long periods and if you're not careful you can incur permanent damage.

I agree. Problem is, that many "knee problems" are misdiagnosed by general practitioners or at the very minimum thought to be joint related by Googlie Howser M.D's out there. When usually issues are mostly due to connective tissue tightness, underlying fascia inflammation, or muscle imbalance(usually VMO related). Illiotibial Band Syndrome, Patellofemoral Pain Syndrome are the two most common .. and like you say can lead to permanent damage if the underlying mobility issues aren't addressed.

I see so many people give up on activities that they love, due to "bad knees" .. when really they only need maybe 2 weeks of terminal knee extension therapy.

Winds
05-25-2012, 14:13
I agree. Problem is, that many "knee problems" are misdiagnosed by general practitioners or at the very minimum thought to be joint related by Googlie Howser M.D's out there. When usually issues are mostly due to connective tissue tightness, underlying fascia inflammation, or muscle imbalance(usually VMO related). Illiotibial Band Syndrome, Patellofemoral Pain Syndrome are the two most common .. and like you say can lead to permanent damage if the underlying mobility issues aren't addressed.

I see so many people give up on activities that they love, due to "bad knees" .. when really they only need maybe 2 weeks of terminal knee extension therapy.

Yes, and a great deal of this applies to me. What exactly, I'm not sure as of yet.

BUT, I don't want knee problems, and will want a much better understanding how to train for my thru and what physical shape I'm in prior to start.

I may be unique here in that I am NOT a marathon athlete in any regard. I do weight train 6 days a week, and cardio / condition train 5 days a week. All my training is now above the 90% level daily. Being that I am in my mid-40's I have a great many concerns I need to understand. I'm 6' 240 now, with a targeted fighting weight of 210.

My 'Google Howser M.D.' abilities is raising more questions than it's answering. Maybe Rickard, Google will prove useful in finding your home address, phone number, work hours, lawn mowing schedule, etc. :)

Rickard
05-25-2012, 14:36
Yes, and a great deal of this applies to me. What exactly, I'm not sure as of yet.

BUT, I don't want knee problems, and will want a much better understanding how to train for my thru and what physical shape I'm in prior to start.

I may be unique here in that I am NOT a marathon athlete in any regard. I do weight train 6 days a week, and cardio / condition train 5 days a week. All my training is now above the 90% level daily. Being that I am in my mid-40's I have a great many concerns I need to understand. I'm 6' 240 now, with a targeted fighting weight of 210.

My 'Google Howser M.D.' abilities is raising more questions than it's answering. Maybe Rickard, Google will prove useful in finding your home address, phone number, work hours, lawn mowing schedule, etc. :)


You could probably see my lawn from space right now, haha. Your training plan seems a bit excessive(unsustainable) to me at a glance, but I don't mind going in depth once I get back. I may not have enough power to address this on the trail.

I promise to not be wordy, all of this is actually quite simple when some concrete goals are set.

Winds
05-25-2012, 15:00
Wait, who said you could go anywhere? Ah, you are soon to become unavailable on the trail eh?

Yes, I'm being told I am over-training but only by those my age or older who don't have a concept of what I'm doing in the first place.

Other than attempting to eat right, my only supplement up until Tuesday this week was a consistently inconsistent multi-vitamin. Tuesday I added creatine to understand the affects on my training. I am not loading, and my daily intake will be approximately 10 grams.

But yeah, I'm having difficulties only in the last 20 days or so with recovery. I cycle my routines very specifically to get the best advantage day-by-day for optimal efforts. The training run I'm currently on - today is day 108.

I was planning on adding an off-day shortly, but this week I added an outdoor step routine which I'll want to do 4 times weekly.

Keep in mind though that I am 30 lbs overweight. It's not overly apparent due to my muscle mass, but it's weight that must come off. I've read your input here and might appreciate your thoughts down the road.

However, your selfishness regarding your own endeavors should be up for discussion AND a vote here!
Bwaha.

Rickard
05-27-2012, 21:57
Wait, who said you could go anywhere? Ah, you are soon to become unavailable on the trail eh?

Yes, I'm being told I am over-training but only by those my age or older who don't have a concept of what I'm doing in the first place.

Other than attempting to eat right, my only supplement up until Tuesday this week was a consistently inconsistent multi-vitamin. Tuesday I added creatine to understand the affects on my training. I am not loading, and my daily intake will be approximately 10 grams.

But yeah, I'm having difficulties only in the last 20 days or so with recovery. I cycle my routines very specifically to get the best advantage day-by-day for optimal efforts. The training run I'm currently on - today is day 108.

I was planning on adding an off-day shortly, but this week I added an outdoor step routine which I'll want to do 4 times weekly.

Keep in mind though that I am 30 lbs overweight. It's not overly apparent due to my muscle mass, but it's weight that must come off. I've read your input here and might appreciate your thoughts down the road.

However, your selfishness regarding your own endeavors should be up for discussion AND a vote here!
Bwaha.

Yep, I'm on the trail. I'm in the hostel at Pine Grove Furnace State Park, the internet access is nice.

10g per day is a form of loading, just on the conservative side. Once you are fully saturated, you will only require 2-3g per day to maintain. An example of aggressive loading is 5g four times per day, over 5-6 days. So it should take you about 2 weeks to reach full saturation on your 10g per day, then you can drop down to the 2-3g to maintain. Or, do as I do and take 5g per day to make up for the days you will undoubtedly miss.

If you already knew that, disregard! :D

There is a lot of information out there, so I'll help you cut through the bs. You can't go wrong reading these articles. Lyle is an arrogant bastard, but he knows his stuff. Chip away at his articles that interest you, and you'll learn a ton.

http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15

rocketsocks
05-27-2012, 22:32
Yep, I'm on the trail. I'm in the hostel at Pine Grove Furnace State Park, the internet access is nice.

10g per day is a form of loading, just on the conservative side. Once you are fully saturated, you will only require 2-3g per day to maintain. An example of aggressive loading is 5g four times per day, over 5-6 days. So it should take you about 2 weeks to reach full saturation on your 10g per day, then you can drop down to the 2-3g to maintain. Or, do as I do and take 5g per day to make up for the days you will undoubtedly miss.

If you already knew that, disregard! :D

There is a lot of information out there, so I'll help you cut through the bs. You can't go wrong reading these articles. Lyle is an arrogant bastard, but he knows his stuff. Chip away at his articles that interest you, and you'll learn a ton.

http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15Wow ,that sure is some reading there.thanks.

Winds
05-28-2012, 00:00
Thanks for the links, I'll sift soon.

There is a good deal of information on creatine. Remember my weight - suggested load is 20g and maintenance is 10-12g for my size. The lowest dose recommended from small to mega-canisters that I found are 6g per serving (it goes higher per serving/labeling). I am taking 12g now (first week) which I don't think is loading entirely / and will take 6g a day thereafter. At minimum, I take a single dose about an hour before rigorous activity.

I am going to have to cut something back. I am uncertain I'll be able to add 4 days of stair training now. I will cut that to 3 days. Currently, I am still rather a bit beat as a rule.

Good to hear you are on the trail! Do you have a blog or Facebook log of your journeys you wish to share?

Hike on!

AAhiker
06-01-2012, 08:02
So... basically, Eat veggies in town. Eat meat, grains, and sugars on the trail, aerobic(with oxygen for glycolosis) 30ATP, 6ATP in Anerobic exercise(when your working harder than your muscles can get an oxygen supply). And after a long day of hiking throwing in a few push-ups or some pull ups or even planks and some light leg stretching will help balance your muscles out and reduce some muscle stiffness and fatigue going from (plank to downward facing dog is great). Last sentence based on personal experience. Oh and with the aerobic/anerobic deal obviously anerobic is less effecient regardless of its reality so while hiking, pacing yourself to your "ACTUAL" fitness level will make you feel a lot better at the end of the day.

AAhiker
06-01-2012, 08:05
Oh and H2O aka Water is essential for glycolosis.

Rickard
06-04-2012, 07:54
Thanks for the links, I'll sift soon.

There is a good deal of information on creatine. Remember my weight - suggested load is 20g and maintenance is 10-12g for my size. The lowest dose recommended from small to mega-canisters that I found are 6g per serving (it goes higher per serving/labeling). I am taking 12g now (first week) which I don't think is loading entirely / and will take 6g a day thereafter. At minimum, I take a single dose about an hour before rigorous activity.

I am going to have to cut something back. I am uncertain I'll be able to add 4 days of stair training now. I will cut that to 3 days. Currently, I am still rather a bit beat as a rule.

Good to hear you are on the trail! Do you have a blog or Facebook log of your journeys you wish to share?

Hike on!

Your overall weight isn't going to have much impact, it's lean body mass that matters. I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but it doesn't sound anywhere near correct. The loading data is pretty much universal, even including elite athletes at the peak of their genetic potential(natural) of muscle mass. There are literally hundreds of studies out there using this protocol, it's pretty much the standard.

6g per day will get you where you need to be though, but if you want more control once your product is consumed just get some cheap standalone monohydrate powder. Creapure products mix a bit better(truenutrition,ON,AtLargeNutrition to name a few that carry it), especially Optimum Nutrition's micronized version.

As for my hike, no blog or anything like that. I had a blast! When I got back I did some kayaking, ate a lot of great food .. good times!

Rickard
06-04-2012, 07:58
Oh and H2O aka Water is essential for glycolosis.

The body will draw water(it carries a lot of it) from its stores if intake is insufficient for such processes. Outside the obvious fact that H2O is essential for just about all life functions, your body 'has your back' so to speak, in this case.

Odd Man Out
06-04-2012, 09:38
Oh and H2O aka Water is essential for glycolosis.

Not sure where this is coming from. Anaerobic glycolysis is balanced with not net production or consumption of water. In aerobic metabolism, there is always a net production of water. Oxidation of our food releases electrons which are then transferred to oxygen. The reduction of oxygen produces water (and is responsible for releasing most of our available energy). So water is a waste product of metabolism we have to get rid of. But even with all this excess water being produced, you still have to stay hydrated, because we also use water evaporation to cool the body, as all the reactions of metabolism release a lot of heat.

Rickard
06-04-2012, 11:05
glucogenesis requires water to store the glucose in the first place, about 2-3g of water per g of carbohydrate. I figured that's what AA was getting at. So it is essential, albeit indirectly.

LongRange
08-07-2012, 15:02
Hey Saimyoji (doc), I just read your post dated 26 Nov., '05 "Muscle Management". Great information for folks whom are considering a thru-hike. Some of the info I have been aware of, such as augmenting water with a sports drink. For example, on a long day hike I would have my 3 liter Camelbak filled with water and then a 20oz. GatorAide to sip on throughout the day understanding the importance of electrolytes. However, I have a question for ya, on a thru-hike, what would you recommend as a balance, water to electrolyte drink ratio. I realize there are a lot of variables that factor into that, but, just an idea. One other question if you would so inclined. Cytomox, formula drinks, should that be consumed before one sets out for the six month journey or, durring it? Or, both before and during? I hope your still around to answer this for us. Thanks, Longrange.

atraildreamer
08-08-2012, 12:15
Don't know if is applicable to this thread, but I have used tonic water with quinine to stop cramps. A few ounces will stop the cramp(s) in a few minutes. (Makes a good mixer, too! :rolleyes: )

kayak karl
08-08-2012, 12:21
mom said when i was little "eat bananas"
whenever i hit town i can hear that ring in my head :)

rocketsocks
08-08-2012, 12:25
mom said when i was little "eat bananas"
whenever i hit town i can hear that ring in my head :)and Tomaters too!

atraildreamer
08-09-2012, 11:17
mom said when i was little "eat bananas"
whenever i hit town i can hear that ring in my head :)

For a good source of potassium, try potato chips. They are loaded with potassium. Along with the sodium in the salt, they are a good way to build up your electrolyte levels on a hot day.

rocketsocks
08-09-2012, 11:22
For a good source of potassium, try potato chips. They are loaded with potassium. Along with the sodium in the salt, they are a good way to build up your electrolyte levels on a hot day.Nice! good one.

kayak karl
08-09-2012, 11:44
and Tomaters too!
since when do you have to tell a jersey boy to eat tomatoes:)

Pedaling Fool
08-09-2012, 12:17
For a good source of potassium, try potato chips. They are loaded with potassium. Along with the sodium in the salt, they are a good way to build up your electrolyte levels on a hot day.
I don't know if your post is a sarcastic post, because chips are alway listed as a "junk food" and almost always grouped with sodas. However, I do eat tons of chips and even sometimes that's all I eat for breakfast. Basically they're just dehydrated potatoes, provided you buy the ones with an ingredient listing of just a few words that would make-up a small sentence. The ones I eat usually only have potatoes, oil (various types) and salt. The breakfast of champions :D

atraildreamer
08-10-2012, 12:50
I don't know if your post is a sarcastic post, because chips are alway listed as a "junk food" and almost always grouped with sodas. However, I do eat tons of chips and even sometimes that's all I eat for breakfast. Basically they're just dehydrated potatoes, provided you buy the ones with an ingredient listing of just a few words that would make-up a small sentence. The ones I eat usually only have potatoes, oil (various types) and salt. The breakfast of champions :D

No sarcasm intended, John. I was out of the hospital a few days after being treated with diuretics. They warned me that I might feel weak as my potassium levels dropped from the medication(s). I was driving when I started to feel weak. I stopped at a local news stand that sold snack foods and bought a small bag of chips and a 8 ounce bottle of apple juice. Both are loaded with potassium. Chips have twice as much potassium as sodium. About 10 minutes after eating the chips and juice, I felt great.