Town's End- Update, advice, questions. [Archive]

Just Bill

08-21-2015, 08:39

While I'm sure most you are not waiting in breathless anticipation, a few of you expressed interest in the gear company I am working on and the Primaloft Gold Quilts and hiking skirts that I was opening with. I'll reach out to a few of you individually as well who wanted to buy a quilt as soon as they were available to see if I can come up with a solution.

Update-
Unfortunately I had to discontinue my relationship with the sewing contractor I was using. As that contractor is well known here and our discussions continue I will not go into any details. Delivery dates were missed and the specs were not being met (size and weight). Primarily the issues though were related to quality, which was a big surprise and not one I will tolerate. The whole point of subcontracting professionally made goods is to deliver the highest quality goods I could at a fair price.

This leaves me absorbing several thousand dollars in losses and more importantly, with no quilts to sell.

I have found two other reputable contractors, but even if I cut a check tomorrow the sewn goods industry moves slowly and I'm looking at a 9-15 week process as well as much larger opening orders.

Advice-
I wanted to reach out for a little feedback and advice as I'm at a bit of a crossroads with this startup.

The Primaloft Gold Quilts are a unique product to the market, at least in my opinion. I think there are many folks who would appreciate a synthetic that is more packable and closer in weight to down, but roughly half the cost. 15 ounce, regular size, 45*, $150, packs to about 2L or less. A down version from Zpacks for example runs 12.5 oz, 40*, $360, packs to about 1.5L or less. My 25* version would be 26 oz, $180 or so and roughly 3L packed size. About $380 for a comparable down one at 18oz.

Option 1-
To offer the three sizes I hoped, in 45* and 25* will run me roughly $24,000. So likely I will need to choose one temp or the other. And not be able to afford any other product development.

Option 2-
Bite the bullet, invest in a quality sewing machine and some started inventory (fabrics) for around $10,000 and then have the option to offer all the quilts, skirts, and potentially other gear more easily.

Option 3-
I could offer Skirts, cheap wind pants, and some other lower cost goods as well for a lower production investment to generate some income... The skirts are original, but specialized. Something like a $50 windpant is just that, nothing new, but cheaper.

Basically- do I try and build a Go-Lite or a cottage company (some dude in his garage sewing one-offs).

Questions-
Any feedback on temperature rating choice?
45* synthetics are almost even with mid-range down by weight, but half the cost.
25* (20*) is by far the most popular quilt choice temp... but many of you likely will bite the bullet and buy the down product. So I don't see it as being as popular.

Cottage gear quality?
I don't feel I sew that well, others have told me my stuff looks fine. Compared to commercially made gear, hand made gear is not the same quality standard that I am used to. Do you care? Do people accept a different standard, accept a little less perfection in cottage gear? Is the trade off in mass production quality worth getting the gear because you can't get it elsewhere?

My crap in general- Do you even care at all?

Anyway, a bit of a weird post I know... but I wanted to get some feedback if possible to help me shape my choices. I desperately want to get this company going, but I do have young children and a full time job so I don't want to do it at the expense of my family.

Mr Liberty

08-21-2015, 17:38

Just Bill

08-24-2015, 08:20

While I'm not in the market, a 25 degree synthetic quilt for ~$180 would be very attractive to me; partially because I despise down for it's lack of water resistance, and partially because the down would be just too expensive to get at reasonable quality for that temperature range.

I'd say you might be best off going with one of two strategies:
1. Go big and bold: a bit of a hybrid approach; drop the 40 degree quilt (for now), but also sell your handmade smaller items (windpants, etc.) on top of the quilts (which you would contract for, I suppose).
2. Go slow and steady: start by just offering smaller items such as clothing, and as your capital allows, invest in the equipment to make larger items (quilts, etc.).

Thanks for the reply.
Still have bids coming in from the contractors and many choices to make.
As somebody who doesn't like to baby my gear... synthetics have always held appeal for that reason.

Course the lack of response to this thread is decent indication interest as well. :o:D

Traveler

08-24-2015, 13:46

Option 1-
To offer the three sizes I hoped, in 45* and 25* will run me roughly $24,000. So likely I will need to choose one temp or the other. And not be able to afford any other product development.

Option 2-
Bite the bullet, invest in a quality sewing machine and some started inventory (fabrics) for around $10,000 and then have the option to offer all the quilts, skirts, and potentially other gear more easily.

Option 3-
I could offer Skirts, cheap wind pants, and some other lower cost goods as well for a lower production investment to generate some income... The skirts are original, but specialized. Something like a $50 windpant is just that, nothing new, but cheaper.

Basically- do I try and build a Go-Lite or a cottage company (some dude in his garage sewing one-offs).

Questions-
Any feedback on temperature rating choice?
45* synthetics are almost even with mid-range down by weight, but half the cost.
25* (20*) is by far the most popular quilt choice temp... but many of you likely will bite the bullet and buy the down product. So I don't see it as being as popular.

Cottage gear quality?
I don't feel I sew that well, others have told me my stuff looks fine. Compared to commercially made gear, hand made gear is not the same quality standard that I am used to. Do you care? Do people accept a different standard, accept a little less perfection in cottage gear? Is the trade off in mass production quality worth getting the gear because you can't get it elsewhere?

My crap in general- Do you even care at all?

Anyway, a bit of a weird post I know... but I wanted to get some feedback if possible to help me shape my choices. I desperately want to get this company going, but I do have young children and a full time job so I don't want to do it at the expense of my family.

First off, I respect what you are attempting to do. It is not easy to get a start up company going, given the realities of the market and vendor sources. It took me a while to find the right footing for my company once I saw the initial business plan was not going to work nearly as well as I had thought. Being flexible is half the battle there and being able to move from a rigid business plan and bend as the market responds and causes it to meander so it can progress.

The thought of synthetics close to the weight benefits of down is attractive to a lot of folks if comments here are any indication. Just based on simple observations, I would think the niche for gear that meets (or exceeds) the simplified specifications you spelled out may be larger than can be estimated, though reaching that market presents its own challenges. What did your market research indicate about this and how were you planning to deal with it?

Option 1: I presume there is a financial ceiling you are reaching with respect to product offerings in the different sizes and temperature ranges. Is the $24,000 you cite the production cost from the contractor for an order that would presumably require a minimum unit production number? Or, is that the cost for acquiring the materials yourself and having it sewn by the contractor based on the number of units you want?

A fixed site commercial sewing shop I would think needs a minimum production order along with a fair amount of time to schedule the work onto the floor and make it. If I don't miss my guess, most shops want to get the lion share of payment prior to shipping, so you have to come up with capital to fund the flooring costs of inventory you may not have a lot of call for yet. Do you need ready inventory to sell, or can you take orders based on an x number of days/weeks delivery? If the latter, see below. If you need the inventory on hand, what will you do when you have specialized orders that come in, or you have a heavy order month and can't get the contractor to make more for two months? That will eventually happen and you will have customers pissed off at missed order dates unless theres a plan B or arrangement with the contractor made long before that day comes.

Option 2: May hold the keys to Option 1. Unless you don't take meals with the family, have distain for weekend days out in the air, or only plan on making a few of these per month, I would seriously re-think getting your own sewing equipment and doing the work yourself. Even a small run of orders will put you into a time crunch if you can't spool up production to meet fill-dates. As a short term answer to determine if the business plan is sound and/or the market research appears to be what you thought it was, though it sounds like you have reached and gone past that point. Finding the right sewing service is now instrumental in this, one that can work on deadlines at first and with marginal orders for a short time until you get your marketing feet under you.

If contractors have been a disappointment and they are brick and mortar locations, there is likely to be an underneath service market of individuals who have the equipment and could do this work. It sounds a bit far fetched, but if you are thinking about buying that equipment others undoubtedly have too and are probably using it to fill orders making boat cushions or bike seats in their spare time. Finding these folks who are set up in their homes may not be easy but could be the key you need. Not only to produce goods to your specs, their overhead would likely make them less expensive than a brick and mortar operation, providing some production savings horsepower to stock the sizes/temp rating you want for quick sale.

Option 3: Though it makes life more complicated, I like this option, especially if you have something unique for the industry, as your specialized skirt has. You know eventually you will have to expand your product line or move into being a supply vendor for a larger retail operation if you stay with quilts alone to expand the business so may as well get into specialized gear and some "We have this too" sales.

As a concept, you had mentioned people "biting the bullet" to buy down quilts at the 20* range for its lighter weight (given performance of synthetic is about equal and the cost is significantly less). How about creating a line of products that compliments your synthetic gear and reduces weight of other gear people carry to reduce the weight objection of synthetics? Rain pants that are lighter than commonly purchased commercial pants that you have to carry around when you aren't using for example. That list can be long, but you probably get the point.

Questions

Feedback on temp rating choice: This is more a gut feel you have for the market. Myself, I would drive the initial effort to the area you are more competitively advantaged. That would probably the 45* arena which gives you fairly firm footing to meet down construction weights and performance at a far lower cost. Use the power of the price differential as a marketing driver and be able to extend to other temps/sizes on special order until you see there is a definite market for stocking.

Though synthetics are a little heavier than down at lower temperature ratings, their advantage is they can get wet (and I am sure a host of other things you can put into the product that don't cost a lot). The idea of marrying your quilts with other products that are designed to lower pack weight on an E-Commerce platform gets more attractive. Being a small business, it will be easier for you to remain in that niche than it was for Go-Lite.

Cottage gear quality: Since you have sewn some gear, how many people looked at what they purchased from you with a critical eye? Could it be your eye is more critical than most customers? Only you know if there was a piece that went out that had a problem in production, you can spot it from across the room, but to the person who purchased it, its all but invisible. So you really become the last word in quality and what you want to put your name on, subjective as it may be. This also relates to the "do I sew it myself for a while" question. It could be you are too close to the product(s) and have a higher quality standard in mind than contractors can perform to, or that people would understand enough to pay more for, but their work will hold up to about anything you can throw at it. That said, finding that person working at home or several people independent of each other may be able to solve the quality issue.

My crap in general, do you even care: I have to say yes, for several reasons too long for this but I would like to see this get off the ground. I am a huge believer in the American Dream you are living at the moment and have been where you have before a few times.

If the effort you are engaged in has potential to provide far more resources for your family, children's education, etc., its not a gamble. A gamble is based on luck, since you are the driving force, determination replaces luck. Besides, what else are you doing?

I am not sure any of this helped, but thought I would take a stab at it. Sometimes its the one small thing that you discover along the way that turns the tumblers in the lock and the door opens.

Best of luck, Bill!

Just Bill

08-24-2015, 16:39

Thanks! Just as on the trail, I appreciate the deeper knowledge folks here have from their non-hiking life.
Yes, all opinions and advice is helpful and does get wheels turning.

To clarify a bit...
There are two basic (oversimplified) models to follow with this type of venture, IMO at least.

"Traditional" cottage gear supplier: a talented person gets into making gear for themselves, then for friends or online encounters... then goes into business.
Someone like Tim from Enlightened Equipment being an excellent example of this. This type of business develops slowly and springs up by offering a product others don't offer. There is often a high degree of customization offered to the customer. On the downside, lead times and cost increase as the business grows and eventually quality goes down slightly (though not always). The biggest pitfall: you must first and foremost become the owner of a sewing business. The reality: of all the thousands of MYOG nerds out there, Tim or Joe at Zpacks are an immense rarity.

Cottage Manufacturer: This is more of what GoLite turned into. After going the actual traditional route of Manufacture to Wholesale to Retail model, they cut out the middlemen and sold direct to the customer at a discount. An excellent model overall as the cottage biz can offer the same product direct to the consumer at wholesale prices. The two mistakes GoLite made- 1-Attempting to add brick and mortar without brick and mortar prices to cover overhead. 2- Inflexible inventory options... GoLite was famous for having a "hit" and then being out of stock for the next 9 months. Primarily I believe this was because of their choice to use overseas manufacturing and the lead time (6-9 months) and high piece count (1000-5000) limitations.

To be what most consider a cottage gear vendor- you must first start a sewing company. Slowly building up your equipment and scale up to meet demand. As far as I know, Tim did what you mention; sourced local home sewers to help produce until eventually bringing the work inhouse. Like any business this has it's own commitments, overhead, and growing pains. In addition, unless you have time to do it or get very creative, you face a constant cycle of growth challenges, equipment investments, and employee labor burdens.

On the flipside; if you have one or more flexible contractors you can greatly reduce overhead and the learning curve by skipping the sewing business completely. Provided you source the right mix of contractors you should be able to keep up with modest growth. The downside is fronting cash and attempting to predict the market in your buying choices. A huge problem for GoLite. You sacrifice the custom options, but provided you buy well and have some cash flow to stay in stock: you offer the same innovative products at competitive or better prices and little or no lead time.

I've chosen the manufacturing route...
I am acceptable, but not passionate about sewing. My skill if there is any, is in design and prototyping. I am a general contractor by trade so this model fits my skillset better. I have a young family and a day job. Roughly, I'd need to sell 45 quilts a month to cover my salary working full time at my day job. So while fronting money for inventory is no small task, it is less onerous than setting aside two years income plus inventory and equipment to really fund a sewing based start up. That said, after a year or more of bill slashing, we are about to downsize our house as well and potentially go the "tiny house" route to raise capitol and slash personal expenses even further.

I thought I had found that "startup" contractor. A cottage gear maker who sews for other companies. With small piece count orders (30-50) and more flexibility and specialized knowledge than a typical sewing contractor. Again, can't get into it at this time, but this route was a bust and resulted in losing money and several months of time. In addition lead times were non-existent "I'll get it when I get it" basically. Turns out I never got it.

So I am currently looking at more traditional sewing contractors. Reliability is higher, but piece counts (if they will even take my work) are in the 100 piece per order range. In addition there are pattern, grading, marker, and sample costs that I must pay prior to even ordering. While these are "one time" per product, they can range from $1000- $6000 per piece of gear I prepare for m. For example; a 45* quilt is one design, in three sizes and about $3000 before placing an order. Then I buy material myself at least (avoiding a typical sourcing markup) and pay on 50/50 terms. 50% down, balance due on completion. The order itself would be in the 9-12k range.

I think the quilt is my strongest opening piece, but also the largest capitol investment. (the 24k number roughly)
I could perhaps produce several less costly pieces for more diversity in my line, but other than the skirts they would basically be "me too" type gear at a good price. There is another issue hanging over my head too with not producing the quilts that I can't go into at this time either.

Realistically if I sew I believe I would end up like most cottage folks- having to charge full retail to cover the overhead of a sewing biz- and therefore losing any cost advantage. Personally I think that one of the biggest pitfalls with cottage gear is the high costs to the consumer. While many justify the "get what you pay for" costs, the reality is you get what the business can afford to produce for. Quite simply a small guy simply can't produce a piece of gear for anywhere close to the cost of even a mid sized sewing shop in the states. Most of the cost of basic cottage gear is simply economies of scale. If done properly I can gut out most of the overhead and offer a blend of the GoLite/Cottage model.

Predicting the market is tough no matter what biz you're in. (I think I'll start another thread on the quilts)
As a "success kills" worst case, I could sell out my 100 quilts on the first day and order on day two.
With the current contractor I prefer I would have a 6-9 week turnaround. Bad, but not that far off other lead times these days really.
If I'm sewing them, unless I quit my job it would be months to fill that order.

That is unrealistic though really. Even if there is a surge or pent up demand after a few months it will smooth out enough.

I guess the bummer and/or real turning point is that I will not be able to do what you mention- diversify my product line. I was in a position to open with 45*, 25* quilts (6 models) and 1-2 hiking skirt models, plus the quick potential to add wind mits and synthetic hats for winter. As it sits I will at best be a one trick pony. So I need to pick my horse carefully. ;)

One or two folks mentioned something like kickstarter... but I hesitate to go that route.
Partially pride, partially community distaste for the process. But perhaps I am wrong on that.
If I have the capitol I could open a 6-12 product company easily and likely handle initial re-orders fairly easily with minor (4 week) hick-ups overall in regards to lead time delays to the customer.

You could say I have a capitol issue I suppose, but I don't always believe capitol solves all business issues. As I write this perhaps this is an exception... some things do actually cost what they cost and there is no clever solution. I do prefer to extinguish all options though before concluding that tossing money at something is the best way. Eventually this catches up to you in the midterm if you haven't slashed and burned overhead and GOGS in the start up phase. You either tighten your belt or raise your prices- neither are good IMO.

The main goal is to offer good to exceptional gear, at a price folks can afford.
I think that there is a strong appreciation for some cottage gear, but an underlying distaste for the costs involved for minimal spec gains. Every day on this site some hiker "goes broke" gearing up for a hike and then starts 15 threads on how not to pay for a hike, lol. I think because of the high cost many folks are forced into being obsessed about gear and short change the experience overall as a result.

"Light, well made, affordable- pick three!" I'd like to stick to that core model and while sewing in my basement will "put me in business" I think it's a desperation move on my part overall. If it turns out to be a means to an end then it is what it is, but I think I have the correct model for the goals I have set.

It helps very much to talk through it though.:)

rocketsocks

08-24-2015, 16:52

Just Bill

08-24-2015, 17:21

I think word of mouth/post goes a long way, unfortunately it also costs money to send out product made. Perhaps bite the bullet on a few bags/quilts and see if you get any bites, if you haven't already done this. I would be a lousy candidate as I don't hike much theses days, you know the ones who do, they are always out hiking and not here posting. good luck Bill :)

Yar, there is a bit of overhead on my end (website, handling, shipping, returns, etc.) plus product development per piece that must be fronted. That said though it's much less overhead than sewing myself and is more of a fixed cost.

I've sold some gear over the past few years to feel it out and pay for prototypes, but not much as I wanted to keep the product quiet. Probably the hardest part of this first setback is that I had/have sales I had to cancel or get creative with after my first vendor fell through.

The likely worst case... I get an opening inventory and it falls flat so I call it a day and spend the next year or two selling it in the forums and I eventually break even or even still turn a small profit.

You may not hike as much anymore, but I think you make a striking figure in your rain skirt either way!:banana

hikeandbike5

08-24-2015, 19:52

I think you should focus on quilts, not windpants or mitts or whatever else you have going. Expand to those products later.

Your quilts seem to be a unique design and capture a unique niche in the market. I think they'd do quite well.

1azarus

08-24-2015, 21:19

I think you are a very talented designer, and a powerfully logical analyst of equipment needs (with the possible exception of that skirt thing...). Go for it.

rocketsocks

08-24-2015, 23:20

I think you are a very talented designer, and a powerfully logical analyst of equipment needs (with the possible exception of that skirt thing...). Go for it.I love my rain skirt, I think people do too...you should see the looks I get. :D

Just Bill

08-25-2015, 09:04

I think you are a very talented designer, and a powerfully logical analyst of equipment needs (with the possible exception of that skirt thing...). Go for it.

I keep forgetting to ask... how are your hammock(s) holding up?
I switched designs so many times now I haven't used a single one more than 30 nights or so, lol.

1azarus

08-25-2015, 10:30

I keep forgetting to ask... how are your hammock(s) holding up?
I switched designs so many times now I haven't used a single one more than 30 nights or so, lol.

your hammocks have been perfect -- and, at the lightest weight on the market, I am a real fan.

hikeandbike5

05-05-2016, 17:46

Any plans to get the quilts back in production?

I think you'd corner the market if you could get them going, EE is now at 14-16 week wait times for a quilt (!)

Just Bill

05-06-2016, 10:45

Tis the season, lol... EE is catching on with the hammock crowd as well. Good for Tim!

As fer me... Plans are in place, but probably not for this season.
Since posting this originally I rethought things overall and realized the most realistic path was to slash and burn my personal expenses to a minimum to make this happen.
If I go cottage (make it myself) I can't afford a big salary. If I get it produced- I need cash.
We spent the winter downsizing, moving assets/finances and re-organizing in general and preparing our house for sale.

I firmed up things with my employer and got a raise and a contract.
Put the house up in Illinois- had 30+ showings and sold it for asking price in 14 days. Closing is 6/1.
We're going to jump the state line into Indiana (Valparaiso) and I just got an accepted offer this morning for a small 2 bedroom condo for about 75k that we close on 6/3.

My housing costs will go from $1700 to $540 a month.
Utilities, etc should drop.
My wife no longer has to work full time, so she can be our first "employee" or I can and she can bring home the bacon.
We may be able to go from a 2 car to a 1 car household- Valpo is a college town and very walking friendly.
Overall we cut our everything by at least half.
And we will be about 15 minutes from Indiana Dunes National Lakeshore and an hours from very nice areas in Northern Indiana/southern Michigan.

Haven't seen the final sheets yet on the real estate- but fingers crossed I should have near to 70k in hand when all is said and done to either replace my salary or hire subs and continue to work.
Course it's real hard staring at enough cash in hand to triple crown with the whole family... but thankfully my daughter is only 2 so I can just barely conquer the instinct to pack up and go hike. :D

It's a long process- but any trail worth walking usually is.

Thanks for thinking of me- all this came together this very week- so still pretty excited. :banana

1azarus

05-06-2016, 13:15

congrats on successfully reinventing yourself. many want to. many try to. few do... kinda like hiking the AT. good work, Liar.

CalebJ

05-06-2016, 13:47

Sounds like you have some great gear ideas and a business plan that has tons of potential. Good luck, Bill! I look forward to seeing how things develop.

Greenlight

05-06-2016, 14:01

Revised: Hadn't read the whole thread. Congrats on the move, and good luck!

While I'm sure most you are not waiting in breathless anticipation, a few of you expressed interest in the gear company I am working on and the Primaloft Gold Quilts and hiking skirts that I was opening with. I'll reach out to a few of you individually as well who wanted to buy a quilt as soon as they were available to see if I can come up with a solution.

Update-
Unfortunately I had to discontinue my relationship with the sewing contractor I was using. As that contractor is well known here and our discussions continue I will not go into any details. Delivery dates were missed and the specs were not being met (size and weight). Primarily the issues though were related to quality, which was a big surprise and not one I will tolerate. The whole point of subcontracting professionally made goods is to deliver the highest quality goods I could at a fair price.

This leaves me absorbing several thousand dollars in losses and more importantly, with no quilts to sell.

I have found two other reputable contractors, but even if I cut a check tomorrow the sewn goods industry moves slowly and I'm looking at a 9-15 week process as well as much larger opening orders.

Advice-
I wanted to reach out for a little feedback and advice as I'm at a bit of a crossroads with this startup.

The Primaloft Gold Quilts are a unique product to the market, at least in my opinion. I think there are many folks who would appreciate a synthetic that is more packable and closer in weight to down, but roughly half the cost. 15 ounce, regular size, 45*, $150, packs to about 2L or less. A down version from Zpacks for example runs 12.5 oz, 40*, $360, packs to about 1.5L or less. My 25* version would be 26 oz, $180 or so and roughly 3L packed size. About $380 for a comparable down one at 18oz.

Option 1-
To offer the three sizes I hoped, in 45* and 25* will run me roughly $24,000. So likely I will need to choose one temp or the other. And not be able to afford any other product development.

Option 2-
Bite the bullet, invest in a quality sewing machine and some started inventory (fabrics) for around $10,000 and then have the option to offer all the quilts, skirts, and potentially other gear more easily.

Option 3-
I could offer Skirts, cheap wind pants, and some other lower cost goods as well for a lower production investment to generate some income... The skirts are original, but specialized. Something like a $50 windpant is just that, nothing new, but cheaper.

Basically- do I try and build a Go-Lite or a cottage company (some dude in his garage sewing one-offs).

Questions-
Any feedback on temperature rating choice?
45* synthetics are almost even with mid-range down by weight, but half the cost.
25* (20*) is by far the most popular quilt choice temp... but many of you likely will bite the bullet and buy the down product. So I don't see it as being as popular.

Cottage gear quality?
I don't feel I sew that well, others have told me my stuff looks fine. Compared to commercially made gear, hand made gear is not the same quality standard that I am used to. Do you care? Do people accept a different standard, accept a little less perfection in cottage gear? Is the trade off in mass production quality worth getting the gear because you can't get it elsewhere?

My crap in general- Do you even care at all?

Anyway, a bit of a weird post I know... but I wanted to get some feedback if possible to help me shape my choices. I desperately want to get this company going, but I do have young children and a full time job so I don't want to do it at the expense of my family.

Greenlight

05-06-2016, 14:02

Oh, and good Lord, get a clause in your contract that you don't pay for out of spec or mis-sewn goods.

bigcranky

05-06-2016, 15:01

Hey, Bill,

I guess I missed this thread completely last summer. Looking over the whole thing, you have nicely laid out all the issues with an individual starting a gear company from scratch. In years past, you could start very slowly, sewing a few items on the side on weekends and selling them to friends and at hiker gatherings, but with the internet, it's quite possible to sell out your order on day one, and have a three month wait on day two.

So, let me suggest that you reconsider Kickstarter. It's possibly the perfect model for your business ideas:

1. It's not begging, like some other sites: you are pre-selling an actual product. If for some reason you can't sell enough of them, everyone gets their money back. (And you get some valuable data.)

2. You get all the production money up front, before production starts, reducing the cash you have to provide out of pocket for your first major product.

3. Customers understand before they order that this will take some time. You can keep them in the loop on the production process, with photos, videos, social media, etc. They feel engaged in the process.

4. Customers actually can get a warm fuzzy feeling that they are helping to start up a small business. Contrast this with the cold hard feelings they will have on day two when you have sold out your whole production run, and they are facing a 3 month wait for the product. (Funny how reframing the exact same wait time changes how people feel about it.)

Of course this won't help solve issues with your production company -- you'll still be responsible to get very high quality good delivered to the customers. But you'll go into the process holding more cards.

You could start with a Kickstarter for the 45F quilt, then use the proceeds to fund the 20F quilt (and promote the idea that one could use both quilts down to about 0F). Or do a Kickstarter for the 20F quilt as well, after the 45F has been successfully delivered.

In the mean time, you could consider sewing the other items in house - they won't require as much time per item, so it's possible to keep them in stock with working on the side. And of course you'll be busy with the quilt production and the social media aspect of the process. (Or your wife will, anyway.)

So, something to consider. Good luck with the whole project, it's one of those things that could be life-changing. :)

Ken

Just Bill

05-06-2016, 19:28

congrats on successfully reinventing yourself. many want to. many try to. few do... kinda like hiking the AT. good work, Liar.

Kinda like hiking the trail, big first step to show up on Springer at all. Though best not to pat myself too hard on the back lest I fall on my face before I even take a real step.

On that topic- had dinner with a friend and enjoyed a recent gift of beer from a mutual friend not too long ago I thought I'd share. I don't get much time to write these days...

Thanks to everyone for the kind words and advice. Time to dig in and move for a few weeks until the next resupply point.

WARNING TO LONE WOLF AND OTHERS: What follows is a string of multiple words, formed into paragraphs, commonly called a short story.
This can easily be confussed with the dreded long post. It can also be easily skipped over; saving not only the time of complaining about the original collection of words, but also the additional words used to complain about the words.

The Heady Topper-

"Some people wake up on Monday mornings
Barring maelstroms and red flag warnings
With no explosions and no surprises
Perform a series of exercises

Hold your fire
Take your place around an open fire

Before your neurons declare a crisis
Before your trace Serotonin rises
Before you're reading, your coffee grounds
And before a pundit could make a sound
And before you're reading your list of vices
Perform the simplest exercises"

The other night Ol’ Man Willy came by for some chow, but mainly fer a visit and some gum flappin. Visiting and gum flappin being something we both hold dearly in common, it was nice to see him. The long months of overtime at work began to die down, and the oft put off visit could finally take place.

As dinner wound down my son began his evening chore of sweeping the floor. He’d do the bit under his chair, then the bit near his sister’s. Then I’d call him back and point to all the things he missed, and he’d try again. After the third time and a list of reasons clearly logical and obvious to a five-year-old were cheerfully explained; we could eventually compromise and call the job done. Freed from his chores he raced off to play while my wife put our daughter to bed.

I headed for the fridge and pulled a few silver cans of something extra special from the fridge. The ol’ fella gave a low whistle that shook his bristly brows as he inquired as to how a young fella in Chicago came to acquire a pair of rare beers from Vermont. “A stranger who knows me kindly sent them along.” said I to he as we popped the tab and drank direct from the can as instructed.

After a sniff and a sip, a bit of swishing an swallowing, followed by a good moment to allow the tingly topper to go from belly to toes before rising to head; he asked about the for sale sign in the yard. I chuckled at my beer in response, while I gathered myself. With a bit of embarrassment, I looked up at the family portrait on the wall and I answered question with question, “So what happens when you finally figure out what you want to be when you grow up, but much to your astonishment you look around and realize that you already have become a grown up.”

He took a long pull, and I could almost hear the beer tingling in his toes and thoughts right before my ears. After a good bit his eyes sparkled. I got nervous. “What makes you so sure you’re a grown up young man?”

“So you married the cow despite getting the milk fer free? Had the big wedding, then you stuck around after a few of yer squirts hit the mark? Put a roof over their head and changed a few diapers, eh. And now you have responsibilities, restrictions, mortgages, obligations and a downright panoply of words with more letters than needed to describe the depths of your adult condition? If’n we’re stretching words an adding letters I gotta say overall that’s mighty unimpressive.

Here’s a simple word fer ya. Brick. It’s got some heft to it, it’s solid. A pair of good hard consonants with a soft little “i” to tie em together. Goes real nice with wall; which is a popular word these days amongst some grown-ups. So let me ask you this. What happens when you wake up one day; and you realize that being a grown up mainly consists of humping together a bunch of bricks until you build a big enough wall to hide behind and claim you’re all grown up because you have built this wall?

Having joined the wall builders club you can now sit around with the other folks who built a wall and pat each other on the back and compare your fine walls. You can pay folks to take pictures of your wall, so you can hang them on it, so when folks come to see your wall they can see how proud you are of it. Some folks are genuinely proud of their walls, satisfied with what they built.

Some ain’t, so sometimes you can head to the bar and sob in each other’s beers about the damned wall and what it costs to maintain. How you’d love to do this or that but you gotta take care of the wall. And you exchange the old ‘I hear ya man, I got a wall too and I love it to death but…’

One day you may even find that the best friend you started out laying bricks with somehow ended up on the other side of this monstrosity. You can wave at each other, and shout through the wall about the wall. Or lean against it some nights and prop each other up. Maybe even look at the pictures together from time to time and smile. Set a few bricks aside when you can, maybe for better days, maybe just for your mausoleum.

So you wanna be a real grown up? Then step up and take charge of your own life. Mostly all I hear is the same silly things that came from your son’s mouth. About how you couldn’t do the simple stuff set out before you the first time and kept having to come back to do it again before you get to run off and play. You just got bigger, with bigger excuses. You didn’t grow up dummy. You just finally took a good look at yer wall and realized it needed a door.”

I sucked the last of the Alchemist’s creation from the can and set the empty down hard on the table. I realized I had been staring at the happy picture on the wall the whole time. I missed it. I didn’t care much for the wall it hung on, but I did like the folks in the picture a fair bit. I looked again at the old man sitting at my table. I nodded to tell him I was ready.

“It’s pretty simple; when you wake up in the morning; pick something. A grain of sand, a hunk of mortar, a single brick. And move it.

Then one day you can tell yerself, ‘What happens when you finally grow up, and much to your astonishment you look around and realize that you have figured out how to become exactly who you really want to be.’”

We sat quietly for a time, as the brief glimpse of the path long path ahead was reduced to the simple reality of taking the first step. The truth is always simple, not easy, but always simple. Any liar knows that.

“If I may be so bold as to advise you on one further topic?”

Once more I nodded, once more he sparkled, “These hoppy head turners are nice fer getting a fleeting glimpse of the path ahead, but I think it best you stick to the good earthy grains fer a bit. Nothing like a wheat to slack the thirst, a porter to carry the day, and stout bit of dark bread to keep your feet on the path ahead when there are still long miles to go.”

“Yar, there’s work yet to do. But it was a nice treat.”

We sat a bit, the Ol’ Man and I.
“Quite speech” said I.
“Quite a beer”, said he.

“Thank’ee kindly” said we.

"So here we are at the end, the war is over
There's nothing left to defend, no cliffs of dover
So let us put down our pens and this concludes the test
Our minds are scattered about from hell to breakfast

Hold your fire
Take your place around an open fire"

“Simple X”, Andrew Bird

Venchka

05-06-2016, 19:54

Yar...
Back to pseudo reality.
Waiting patiently for one of Town's End's 45 degree quilts. I reckon it would nicely compliment my 0 and 20 degree bags.
Take your time. I'm in no hurry.
All the best to you and your family.

Wayne

Sent from somewhere around here.

imscotty

05-06-2016, 20:10

We often build our own prisons, don't we. So few of us are brave enough to be our own liberators.

Good luck on your move and your business endeavors. Thanks once again for an entertaining yarn. Think I will go grab a cold one from the fridge myself.

Sláinte!

rocketsocks

05-06-2016, 20:20

Congrats on the sale of the house, the purchase of the new one, and moving forward.

Venchka

05-06-2016, 20:26

And...
It is Cinco de Mayo!
Rock on!

Wayne

Sent from somewhere around here.

Venchka

05-06-2016, 20:28

And...
It is Cinco de Mayo!
Rock on!

Wayne

Sent from somewhere around here.

Or not.
Rock on anyway.

Wayne

Just Bill

08-08-2016, 16:45

I read your other thread. significant challenges and what you're doing is pretty ambitious so it seems to me you're well convinced of the benefits of this model. almost, without seeing one, I'm persuaded to send you a check for the next one off the line. almost...

do you have any pics? what is the construction of the footbox?

why do you rate your quilt at 45* and 25* when others seem to go for round numbers - 40*, 20*, etc., and how confident are you of these ratings?

very interested at this point. if this is too much of a thread hijack, can we move over to your other thread to continue discussion?..

Moved over from http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/120254-Pack-Sized-of-Climashield-summer-quilt/page2

3578835787

Here are two PDF's- one I made in response to pack size (general info). The other is an old (2015) flyer I made when I was selling a few Apex quilts that I post as it has a decent selection of pictures showing the basic features and dimensions.

That said; I took the (enforced) opportunity to rethink things in general.
I have two full products I am working on; one is much the same shape and general specs as previous, the other is a slightly more radical design that looks like a pint of beer.

My original designs have a sewn side footbox with a drawstring closure- as well as draft plug. I personally like this- nothing to break, easier construction, lowest cost, lightest weight. When it's warm out I simply put just one leg in the footbox and then put the quilt over my bare leg, which lets me vent easily during the night.

That said- even my most gram-weenie tester likes the idea of a zipper at the footbox. So it looks like this next round of prototypes will be zippers.
I may yet keep a XUL model (about 12 oz/50*) in the lineup but again- the two speedy guys it was intended for and used by thought a zipper was worth it.

My business model is to streamline options to reduce inventory and lead times. Lots of cottage folks do well with a "custom" offering and options up the wazoo- but besides adding cost and slowing production- it can also be overwhelming for all involved. While colors can be fun- they are all black at night and black dries quickest in the sun if needed. So other than a temp rating and a basic size- I'm shooting for as close to one size fits all on the options.

Temp rating-
This is very tricky- and the math that Another Kevin was alluding to on the other thread.
Here is a direct link to the last round of specs and ratings- http://thisgearsforyou.com/just-a-quilt-0-1/

As you can see- I am looking to use a EN style system to be more honest with folks. I'd rather go overboard with rating info than see folks unhappy or confused on what I offer. I also have no problems telling a gal she will likely sleep colder or an older gent that he isn't 25 any longer and should not expect to hit the average rating- that part of the science and the EN ratings system is fairly clear in my opinion.

I feel fairly good on these ratings. They are a combination of:
Labwork- CLO, product specs, general science of sleeping gear, and some homework.
Common sense- balancing these out with other folks ratings (like EE, arrowhead equipment, z-packs, Backpacking Light and many other's) as well as simple logic.
Field testing- actual use, by actual people- though a fairly small pool of testers (a dozen) and me being the primary one. However there is a good 300+ nights all told in varied conditions so i am feeling good these are going to hold up within 5* or so.
Also- I'm kind of a jerk and try things that wouldn't work for most- like dunking them in water and going to bed or trying them as much as 30 degrees past the rating. I also test them drunk- but I don't believe that serves any scientific purpose.

The actual rating is 43* and 26* for an average sleeper- 45* and 25* is rounding.

Now that said, there are about three distinct construction methods I have identified as "working". Depending on the actual construction method I choose, the final product may change- but I will clearly identify that if and when I sell one or offer a prototype.

I have also adapted this system to an underquilt- a 7/8 length or so- 42"x58" that came in at 8.75 ounces raw and 10 ounces on the dot with suspension.
Provided the rating holds and the design works- that is the lightest 45* quilt of that size and really highlights some of my findings with PLG overall.
As of now one is in the wild and one is mine for testing so we'll see.

The bigger thing I was working on a redesign of is a "Buy two, get one free" system.
We had some discussions over the winter about quilt stacking and some of the math (again EE was a big help here). I had a chance to test this over this last winter and the results were very promising.

Basically- you buy a 45* quilt and a 25* quilt. When they are stacked- you get a zero degree. Down is far superior at these temps, but many have little use for a dedicated $400 zero degree bag. That- and it is sort of the perfect mix for a long distance hiker... Carry both to start an AT thru (zero), send the 45* home for a month or so and have a 25*, then swap out for your 45* for the summer and pick up the 25* again for the whites. Good system with mine or with EE gear. Or get a 20* down of your choice and layer the 45* synthetic- which is ideal for winter trips as the synthetic is exposed to frost buildup as the outer layer and your down is protected and lasts longer at it's intended rating.

However, unlike down, synthetic needs to be designed to work this way (deferentially cut) so part of the redesign is my sizing of each quilt and size to work in this system.
The 25* would be cut a hair smaller than the 45*- you want the warmer quilt in, and the "extra" size to make it stack is less of a weight penalty in a 45*.
If you follow that- I can design and sell pairs. Regular size in 45 stacks over the regular size 25* for example.

Roughly- (i need to sew some new prototypes to nail this better)
The 45* (44x80) would run say $160 and 15 ounces
The 25* (42x78 would run about $240 and 26 ounces

Combined you'd be at $400 for the pair and the "free" would be combining them into a Zero at 41 ounces.
The 45* would be very competitive with high end down on all specs.
The 25* would be competitive with average down bags on all specs.
The zero (combo of both) would be on par with a budget down or synthetic on weight- but seeing as the whole package cost less than a single down bag... not a bad zero degree bag for those who don't use one often enough to justify the purchase. Yer basic REI zero though would probably be pretty competitive in bulk and weight though, if not superior.
Here's a popular synthetic bag for close to zero- https://www.rei.com/product/880129/mountain-hardwear-lamina-z-torch-sleeping-bag

So overall-
two product lines of quilts
Underquilts are rolling
I have three bridge hammock designs I'm working on.

That's probably the bigger stuff coming up...
I just found a place, hopefully by September I will have a prototype shop set up to sew in.

I'm thinking that I will talk to my IT professional and set up a prototype bin on my site to sell some designs and test projects rather than hording them as I have been doing. This will help cover materials and rent- but more importantly- let me put some more stuff out there instead of yapping about it. :D

I have a few more folks that I'd like to make some samples/test pieces for to do first.
Maybe even I'll find a second mouse to try one too!

Just Bill

08-08-2016, 16:55

egilbe

08-08-2016, 17:35

OH- found the quilt stacking thread I was looking for-
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/115410-Quilt-stacking-from-Enlightened-Equipment-article-and-talks

http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/blog/quilts-106-quilt-layering-for-cold-temps/

Big credit though to Enlightened and their article that inspired the thread. WB user "Peter Boysen" who works at EE was kind enough to chime in as well.

I don't have a link to it... but to the best of my knowledge Trauma and Pepper used a synthetic over down quilt stack for their Winter PCT hike.

Ya know, I once asked Tim if he could make a synthetic overquilt for my Accomplice that the gf and I use. He said he couldn't do it because of the size Apex comes in. It wouldnt work for a two person quilt. Would PL gold be a better option? Just thinking out loud now that we have an Exped insulated two person air mattress. We want to do some Winter hiking, but she's scairt of being cold.

Just Bill

08-09-2016, 11:49

Ya know, I once asked Tim if he could make a synthetic overquilt for my Accomplice that the gf and I use. He said he couldn't do it because of the size Apex comes in. It wouldnt work for a two person quilt. Would PL gold be a better option? Just thinking out loud now that we have an Exped insulated two person air mattress. We want to do some Winter hiking, but she's scairt of being cold.

Yes- it could be done with Primaloft.
Not to throw Tim under the bus, but it could be done with Apex as well- but he may not be set up for that so understandably might not want to take it on.

If you were interested- it'd be a few weeks until I am set up to sew anything significant.
I'd need some numbers, dimensions and pic's as I don't own an accomplice.

The other option- would be to make a simpler version (minus the draft collar) so that it would work decent as a summer quilt for two.
Roughly... I'd guess at least $200-$250, at about 6 yards of fabric or so. (says 86" wide on his site, so ideally a bit wider to layer).
Ballpark would be 25-30 ounces and you'd be on your own for pad straps as I don't have anything compatible with his system.
At that size I'd probably need to call it a 50* (would add 20* to your existing) due to the construction needed to stabilize such a wide bag.

All that said... maybe best to just buy the 50* Accomplice from Tim if you like it and won't be out more than a long weekend in winter. That way you'd have a quilt you already know you like for summer trips, works for you both, and isn't a buttload more at $325. I would imagine their double pad strap kit would work.

There are some advantages for winter and summer with synthetic-
No moisture worries in summer- no worries about frost or down degradation in your outer layer in winter... but not sure if those outweigh a product you are already happy with and know will work against what basically would be an experiment on my end.

Secondmouse

08-09-2016, 12:16

Moved over from http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/120254-Pack-Sized-of-Climashield-summer-quilt/page2

3578835787

Here are two PDF's- one I made in response to pack size (general info). The other is an old (2015) flyer I made when I was selling a few Apex quilts that I post as it has a decent selection of pictures showing the basic features and dimensions.

That said; I took the (enforced) opportunity to rethink things in general.
I have two full products I am working on; one is much the same shape and general specs as previous, the other is a slightly more radical design that looks like a pint of beer.

My original designs have a sewn side footbox with a drawstring closure- as well as draft plug. I personally like this- nothing to break, easier construction, lowest cost, lightest weight. When it's warm out I simply put just one leg in the footbox and then put the quilt over my bare leg, which lets me vent easily during the night.

That said- even my most gram-weenie tester likes the idea of a zipper at the footbox. So it looks like this next round of prototypes will be zippers.
I may yet keep a XUL model (about 12 oz/50*) in the lineup but again- the two speedy guys it was intended for and used by thought a zipper was worth it.

My business model is to streamline options to reduce inventory and lead times. Lots of cottage folks do well with a "custom" offering and options up the wazoo- but besides adding cost and slowing production- it can also be overwhelming for all involved. While colors can be fun- they are all black at night and black dries quickest in the sun if needed. So other than a temp rating and a basic size- I'm shooting for as close to one size fits all on the options.

Temp rating-
This is very tricky- and the math that Another Kevin was alluding to on the other thread.
Here is a direct link to the last round of specs and ratings- http://thisgearsforyou.com/just-a-quilt-0-1/

As you can see- I am looking to use a EN style system to be more honest with folks. I'd rather go overboard with rating info than see folks unhappy or confused on what I offer. I also have no problems telling a gal she will likely sleep colder or an older gent that he isn't 25 any longer and should not expect to hit the average rating- that part of the science and the EN ratings system is fairly clear in my opinion.

I feel fairly good on these ratings. They are a combination of:
Labwork- CLO, product specs, general science of sleeping gear, and some homework.
Common sense- balancing these out with other folks ratings (like EE, arrowhead equipment, z-packs, Backpacking Light and many other's) as well as simple logic.
Field testing- actual use, by actual people- though a fairly small pool of testers (a dozen) and me being the primary one. However there is a good 300+ nights all told in varied conditions so i am feeling good these are going to hold up within 5* or so.
Also- I'm kind of a jerk and try things that wouldn't work for most- like dunking them in water and going to bed or trying them as much as 30 degrees past the rating. I also test them drunk- but I don't believe that serves any scientific purpose.

The actual rating is 43* and 26* for an average sleeper- 45* and 25* is rounding.

Now that said, there are about three distinct construction methods I have identified as "working". Depending on the actual construction method I choose, the final product may change- but I will clearly identify that if and when I sell one or offer a prototype.

I have also adapted this system to an underquilt- a 7/8 length or so- 42"x58" that came in at 8.75 ounces raw and 10 ounces on the dot with suspension.
Provided the rating holds and the design works- that is the lightest 45* quilt of that size and really highlights some of my findings with PLG overall.
As of now one is in the wild and one is mine for testing so we'll see.

The bigger thing I was working on a redesign of is a "Buy two, get one free" system.
We had some discussions over the winter about quilt stacking and some of the math (again EE was a big help here). I had a chance to test this over this last winter and the results were very promising.

Basically- you buy a 45* quilt and a 25* quilt. When they are stacked- you get a zero degree. Down is far superior at these temps, but many have little use for a dedicated $400 zero degree bag. That- and it is sort of the perfect mix for a long distance hiker... Carry both to start an AT thru (zero), send the 45* home for a month or so and have a 25*, then swap out for your 45* for the summer and pick up the 25* again for the whites. Good system with mine or with EE gear. Or get a 20* down of your choice and layer the 45* synthetic- which is ideal for winter trips as the synthetic is exposed to frost buildup as the outer layer and your down is protected and lasts longer at it's intended rating.

However, unlike down, synthetic needs to be designed to work this way (deferentially cut) so part of the redesign is my sizing of each quilt and size to work in this system.
The 25* would be cut a hair smaller than the 45*- you want the warmer quilt in, and the "extra" size to make it stack is less of a weight penalty in a 45*.
If you follow that- I can design and sell pairs. Regular size in 45 stacks over the regular size 25* for example.

Roughly- (i need to sew some new prototypes to nail this better)
The 45* (44x80) would run say $160 and 15 ounces
The 25* (42x78 would run about $240 and 26 ounces

Combined you'd be at $400 for the pair and the "free" would be combining them into a Zero at 41 ounces.
The 45* would be very competitive with high end down on all specs.
The 25* would be competitive with average down bags on all specs.
The zero (combo of both) would be on par with a budget down or synthetic on weight- but seeing as the whole package cost less than a single down bag... not a bad zero degree bag for those who don't use one often enough to justify the purchase. Yer basic REI zero though would probably be pretty competitive in bulk and weight though, if not superior.
Here's a popular synthetic bag for close to zero- https://www.rei.com/product/880129/mountain-hardwear-lamina-z-torch-sleeping-bag

So overall-
two product lines of quilts
Underquilts are rolling
I have three bridge hammock designs I'm working on.

That's probably the bigger stuff coming up...
I just found a place, hopefully by September I will have a prototype shop set up to sew in.

I'm thinking that I will talk to my IT professional and set up a prototype bin on my site to sell some designs and test projects rather than hording them as I have been doing. This will help cover materials and rent- but more importantly- let me put some more stuff out there instead of yapping about it. :D

I have a few more folks that I'd like to make some samples/test pieces for to do first.
Maybe even I'll find a second mouse to try one too!

wow, you have been busy. congratulations for moving forward.

I'm not sure which version of footbox I would prefer but I think if it's got a drawstring bottom, I would want a zipper. otherwise, in a lightweight/summer quilt, I could be just as happy with a fully sewn wide-box foot. that would be the lightest/easiest/cheapest, no?

I'm completely in sync with your idea of a layering system, however I use a 20* down bag and a 40* Apex quilt. I purposely oversized the quilt (long/wide = 6'6"/58") to be my top layer. by itself, this combination should get me down around 0*, right at 3.25lbs.

your temp rating looks perfectly reasonable to me. there is realistically no difference between 40 and 45 degrees when you figure in variabilities of wind, humidity, age of bag, etc.. but my business mind just wondered if it won't suffer in perception when compared to other offerings rated at 40*.

Personally, I would NOT round the numbers to the nominal value and instead market it at the de facto 43*, which takes on the cachet of precision as a way of distinguishing your PL products from other synthetics...

your product mix looks exciting. you could really carve out a niche as a sole provider of PL quilts though if you are successful, I don't know how long exclusivity would last. the world hates a vacuum...

my personal excitement rests in the packability of PL vs CS, with the cost and moisture handling advantages over down. if you're still working on prototypes/betas, I'm very eager to see what you come up with. and though you already have some early birds in circulation, the Secondmouse gets the cheeeeese!..

Just Bill

08-09-2016, 12:59

wow, you have been busy. congratulations for moving forward.

I'm not sure which version of footbox I would prefer but I think if it's got a drawstring bottom, I would want a zipper. otherwise, in a lightweight/summer quilt, I could be just as happy with a fully sewn wide-box foot. that would be the lightest/easiest/cheapest, no?

I'm completely in sync with your idea of a layering system, however I use a 20* down bag and a 40* Apex quilt. I purposely oversized the quilt (long/wide = 6'6"/58") to be my top layer. by itself, this combination should get me down around 0*, right at 3.25lbs.

your temp rating looks perfectly reasonable to me. there is realistically no difference between 40 and 45 degrees when you figure in variabilities of wind, humidity, age of bag, etc.. but my business mind just wondered if it won't suffer in perception when compared to other offerings rated at 40*.

Personally, I would NOT round the numbers to the nominal value and instead market it at the de facto 43*, which takes on the cachet of precision as a way of distinguishing your PL products from other synthetics...

your product mix looks exciting. you could really carve out a niche as a sole provider of PL quilts though if you are successful, I don't know how long exclusivity would last. the world hates a vacuum...

my personal excitement rests in the packability of PL vs CS, with the cost and moisture handling advantages over down. if you're still working on prototypes/betas, I'm very eager to see what you come up with. and though you already have some early birds in circulation, the Secondmouse gets the cheeeeese!..

Having no option to vent (full sewn footbox) is a bust in the 45* range. You are correct- lightest and cheapest is a full sewn.
Doing a drawstring bottom and a sewn side is a good compromise (you skip a zipper, but still can open the bottom).
If right at 45* you probably want it closed, but if you wanted to continue to use it at the upper limits (60-70)* depending on how hot you sleep then it needs to open up.

To an extent; I disagree with my testers and find no need to fully open up the footbox. For simplicity's sake; you just take a foot out and call it good enough, I can't think of a reason a solo user would NEED to open any quilt up all the way and basically turn it into a comforter, but many people seem to firmly hold that belief. To me; the disadvantage of having a zipper (potential failures) doesn't outweigh the minor benefit of having one. Really- if you're looking to vent a bit, hanging a foot out is a much bigger advantage than exposing a few inches of calf so I don't quite get it, lol. But seems I am the only one and more than willing to listen to others on this topic.

Dogwood (not a tester) however makes a decent point in that the main advantage of fully opening the footbox is that you can then use the piece as an underquilt or a light blanket for two- basically that you get more bang for your buck as a result. That argument is probably the best reason to use a zipper. Some folks like using snaps, but I never liked those as they can draft if you are a side sleeper or squirmer. That, and it's another specialized piece of sewing equipment (in a production setting) and they fail as well.

On the stacking- no argument from me on using down for your warmer piece.
Personally when it gets about 20* I prefer a mummy bag over a quilt. Though in a hammock, it is easier to use a quilt and I personally have been going that route as I spent the last winter mainly in the air.
But the synthetic 25* has it's place and if I'm doing the 45*, might as well do the 25* for those shopping on cost vs down.

I will likely start with three basic sizes-
XUL-(50* rating only) tapered minimalist design with weight being the goal. I fit at 5'10 and 220 but wouldn't use this for anything but fast and light stuff... Great piece for runners or fastpackers at 12-14 ounces.
Hammock/UL- a good "regular/medium" for the ground dweller or a generous hammock size. This will be in 45 and 25 and the 45 will be cut bigger (66h/44f by 80" long)
Ground/Big guy- a generous cut for ground folks or bigger hangers. 45 and 25 sized to stack.

So roughly for those looking to stack a down piece- 15 ounces for a regular cut and about 18 ounces for a bigger cut. One encouraging thing that Peter at EE pointed out on the stacking thread (which I agree with) is that down can suffer a bit of loss in loft and still function well. IE- he reported stacking the same size quilt over the same size quilt (reg/reg over reg/reg) with out an issue.
You can't do that with synthetics, so mine have to be cut to fit.
BUT- you could use a regular size PL quilt over a down quilt and so long as you weren't going too nuts, it would be okay if the fit was snug so using the biggest size may not be needed and you could stick with the lighter one.

Temps-
Thanks! I do like the idea of listing the number (not an average or a guesstimate).
I am fairly confident in the rating, the only thing I cannot guarantee is the long term prospects (150-300 nights) as I simply don't have the resources to test it. So time will have to tell on that.

Cheese-
LOL, I will definitely keep you in mind for round two of testing and greatly appreciate your interest and questions. Nerding out on the details helps quite a bit.

Secondmouse

08-09-2016, 13:10

your inbox is full...

Just Bill

08-09-2016, 13:23

your inbox is full...

lol, I just cleaned it out the other day... looks like my last donation expired so my box got cut in half!

[email protected] is up and running if you want to shoot an e-mail there than may be easier.

Looks like I will need to re-up my donation when I get back to my home computer.

Secondmouse

08-09-2016, 15:40

having no option to vent (full sewn footbox) is a bust in the 45* range. You are correct- lightest and cheapest is a full sewn.
Doing a drawstring bottom and a sewn side is a good compromise (you skip a zipper, but still can open the bottom).
If right at 45* you probably want it closed, but if you wanted to continue to use it at the upper limits (60-70)* depending on how hot you sleep then it needs to open up.

To an extent; i disagree with my testers and find no need to fully open up the footbox. For simplicity's sake; you just take a foot out and call it good enough, i can't think of a reason a solo user would need to open any quilt up all the way and basically turn it into a comforter, but many people seem to firmly hold that belief. To me; the disadvantage of having a zipper (potential failures) doesn't outweigh the minor benefit of having one. Really- if you're looking to vent a bit, hanging a foot out is a much bigger advantage than exposing a few inches of calf so i don't quite get it, lol. But seems i am the only one and more than willing to listen to others on this topic.

Dogwood (not a tester) however makes a decent point in that the main advantage of fully opening the footbox is that you can then use the piece as an underquilt or a light blanket for two- basically that you get more bang for your buck as a result. That argument is probably the best reason to use a zipper. Some folks like using snaps, but i never liked those as they can draft if you are a side sleeper or squirmer. That, and it's another specialized piece of sewing equipment (in a production setting) and they fail as well.

ok, I never thought having a sewn bottom would be bad in a lightweight bag. as a rule, I never disagree with the masses but nothing would drive me more quickly and thoroughly nuts than having an open bottom where my feet could stick out. I'd sooner have a "cap" at the foot, even if only ankle height, that I could stick a foot in and use to position the bag. your idea of keeping one leg out is exactly how I do this.

IMO, the only non-theoretical use of unzipping a tapered quilt, is for supplementary "static" insulation. on my 10-day section, I spent one of the coldest June nights I've ever experienced, and next morning was not much better till quite a bit after sun-up. because of the season, I didn't bring a puffy or long pants and I wrapped my quilt around me like a shawl going about making and eating breakfast.

on the stacking
-no argument from me on using down for your warmer piece.
Personally when it gets about 20* i prefer a mummy bag over a quilt. Though in a hammock, it is easier to use a quilt and i personally have been going that route as i spent the last winter mainly in the air.
But the synthetic 25* has it's place and if i'm doing the 45*, might as well do the 25* for those shopping on cost vs down.

I will likely start with three basic sizes-
xul-(50* rating only) tapered minimalist design with weight being the goal. I fit at 5'10 and 220 but wouldn't use this for anything but fast and light stuff... Great piece for runners or fastpackers at 12-14 ounces.
Hammock/ul- a good "regular/medium" for the ground dweller or a generous hammock size. This will be in 45 and 25 and the 45 will be cut bigger (66h/44f by 80" long)
ground/big guy- a generous cut for ground folks or bigger hangers. 45 and 25 sized to stack.

So roughly for those looking to stack a down piece- 15 ounces for a regular cut and about 18 ounces for a bigger cut. One encouraging thing that peter at ee pointed out on the stacking thread (which i agree with) is that down can suffer a bit of loss in loft and still function well. Ie- he reported stacking the same size quilt over the same size quilt (reg/reg over reg/reg) with out an issue.
You can't do that with synthetics, so mine have to be cut to fit.
But- you could use a regular size pl quilt over a down quilt and so long as you weren't going too nuts, it would be okay if the fit was snug so using the biggest size may not be needed and you could stick with the lighter one.

personal preference only, but due to managing drafts, I prefer a bag for winter cold. and because a warmer bag is necessarily a heavier and bulkier bag, I chose down. nothing against synthetic but below freezing, a lot of the justification regarding moisture isn't there and a lot of the advantages of down start to add up .

however, once the temps get and stay above freezing, and in the light weights/thicknesses of a summer quilt/bag, the cost and other disadvantages of down make me choose synthetics.

my issues with Apex is that dratted non-quilted blousiness but especially packability. I use a smaller pack and am jealous of every Cu In and your use of Primaloft is really the first thing that addresses the void between Apex and Down...

temps-
thanks! I do like the idea of listing the number (not an average or a guesstimate).
I am fairly confident in the rating, the only thing i cannot guarantee is the long term prospects (150-300 nights) as i simply don't have the resources to test it. So time will have to tell on that.

call me cynical but IMO, buyers are stupid and easily distracted. sellers need to do whatever they can to remain in a buyers awareness. sometimes, even a negative connotation can be beneficial if it raises curiosity and interest. remember the Chesterfield 101 cigarette TV commercial (no probably not) that claimed it was "a silly millimeter longer". nothing to do with the product but you couldn't get that stupid thought out of your head...

cheese-
lol, i will definitely keep you in mind for round two of testing and greatly appreciate your interest and questions. Nerding out on the details helps quite a bit.

ha! I'm not trying to wedge my nose under the tent. I'm perfectly happy to pay for one but I didn't want to miss the autumn window...

Just Bill

08-09-2016, 16:50

See below-

ok, I never thought having a sewn bottom would be bad in a lightweight bag. as a rule, I never disagree with the masses but nothing would drive me more quickly and thoroughly nuts than having an open bottom where my feet could stick out. I'd sooner have a "cap" at the foot, even if only ankle height, that I could stick a foot in and use to position the bag. your idea of keeping one leg out is exactly how I do this.

Since Tim has much better pics than me, lol- http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/enigma/ (http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/enigma/)
An enigma is basically what a full sewn footbox looks like. The advantage is the lightest weight possible.
The main advantage of a quilt versus a traditional sleeping bag is that it can much better adapt to a wider range of temps. A sewn footbox limits this ability a decent bit in the upper range comfort. So if you were looking for a piece of sleeping gear capable of a 20-30 degree range- the quilt is the best choice. As you get to the lower end or even push the rating a bit, a quilt is not as good as a sleeping bag for holding your heat. So quilts in general are a compromise between achieving the lowest possible rating as opposed to the greatest possible versatility.

If money was no object and you did trips of one week or less- then owning a full set of something like the Enigma would be ideal. You would have the most efficient bag for the expected temp during your trip.
However, most folks (LD hikers especially) would prefer a bag that worked well across a wider range along the basic "Summer, Shoulder, Winter, Real Winter" ranges. It's the increase in the LD hiking niche and the need for better temp regulation with one piece of gear that has fueled quilts really, not just the weight.

The drawback to the one leg out thing... is that the leg out often needs to hang off the pad, which can be uncomfortable on a thicker pad for some. And with a drawstring footbox; you don't necessarily need to put your whole foot out, but simply opening up even an inch may be enough to do the job and still give you a "bottom" to push off if needed. That said; I cut my quilts very long so you don't bottom out unless you want to. Also- if you are bottomed out, you're compressing the insulation (regardless of fill) so that is not too effective either.

IMO, the only non-theoretical use of unzipping a tapered quilt, is for supplementary "static" insulation. on my 10-day section, I spent one of the coldest June nights I've ever experienced, and next morning was not much better till quite a bit after sun-up. because of the season, I didn't bring a puffy or long pants and I wrapped my quilt around me like a shawl going about making and eating breakfast.

Damn, need to take more pictures, lol... I turn the quilt over, with the open part facing away from me. Then I step into the bottom of the bag and pull it up to my armpits (so the footbox drawcord is at my chest). Then I can take my quilt and flip the main part up over my back. So I have a vest on my chest, and two layers of quilt on my back and shoulder. Then I put my Houdini (windshell) on over it all, in fact I have a size up just for winter use. This turns the quilt and the Houdini into a puffy jacket, with a 45* rating or so on my chest, and a 25* rating on my back. Which is perfect for sitting around the fire and BSing.

If I get in trouble on a fast and light trip, I will reverse that (both layers up front) and put on my pack; now I am wearing a very warm rig and hiking as well. I have worn a skirt, a base layer, and this puffy combo down to the 20's while moving and was quite warm. SO... I think having a sewn up (or zippered) at least with a drawcord is a huge advantage for this reason as I can leave the puffy at home and push things a bit in later shoulder seasons or for an unexpected bad night.

personal preference only, but due to managing drafts, I prefer a bag for winter cold. and because a warmer bag is necessarily a heavier and bulkier bag, I chose down. nothing against synthetic but below freezing, a lot of the justification regarding moisture isn't there and a lot of the advantages of down start to add up .

35* or so is the breakeven point with Primaloft Gold bags versus 850 fill down. Above, PLG competes (or beats around 45*) a down on specs. Below- there is no contest.

however, once the temps get and stay above freezing, and in the light weights/thicknesses of a summer quilt/bag, the cost and other disadvantages of down make me choose synthetics.

my issues with Apex is that dratted non-quilted blousiness but especially packability. I use a smaller pack and am jealous of every Cu In and your use of Primaloft is really the first thing that addresses the void between Apex and Down...

to be fair- in my 45* bags, one shell is not quilted (for warmth). Full sewn thru quilting is not a good plan. But with at least one side quilted, the bag doesn't "invert" or slide away as much, and if you end up with a handful of shell while unpacking; you won't be pulling on unsupported insulation as you would with an Apex type construction. The 25* is quilted on both sides, but again, they are not connected thru the bag for warmth reasons.

call me cynical but IMO, buyers are stupid and easily distracted. sellers need to do whatever they can to remain in a buyers awareness. sometimes, even a negative connotation can be beneficial if it raises curiosity and interest. remember the Chesterfield 101 cigarette TV commercial (no probably not) that claimed it was "a silly millimeter longer". nothing to do with the product but you couldn't get that stupid thought out of your head...

Born in '78, so probably missed it, but I get the concept lol.

ha! I'm not trying to wedge my nose under the tent. I'm perfectly happy to pay for one but I didn't want to miss the autumn window...

egilbe

08-09-2016, 17:21

Yes- it could be done with Primaloft.
Not to throw Tim under the bus, but it could be done with Apex as well- but he may not be set up for that so understandably might not want to take it on.

If you were interested- it'd be a few weeks until I am set up to sew anything significant.
I'd need some numbers, dimensions and pic's as I don't own an accomplice.

The other option- would be to make a simpler version (minus the draft collar) so that it would work decent as a summer quilt for two.
Roughly... I'd guess at least $200-$250, at about 6 yards of fabric or so. (says 86" wide on his site, so ideally a bit wider to layer).
Ballpark would be 25-30 ounces and you'd be on your own for pad straps as I don't have anything compatible with his system.
At that size I'd probably need to call it a 50* (would add 20* to your existing) due to the construction needed to stabilize such a wide bag.

All that said... maybe best to just buy the 50* Accomplice from Tim if you like it and won't be out more than a long weekend in winter. That way you'd have a quilt you already know you like for summer trips, works for you both, and isn't a buttload more at $325. I would imagine their double pad strap kit would work.

There are some advantages for winter and summer with synthetic-
No moisture worries in summer- no worries about frost or down degradation in your outer layer in winter... but not sure if those outweigh a product you are already happy with and know will work against what basically would be an experiment on my end.

For an overquilt, I think I would prefer an oversized synthetic quilt for all the reasons you mentioned. I'm still thinking about it.

Just Bill

08-09-2016, 19:37

For an overquilt, I think I would prefer an oversized synthetic quilt for all the reasons you mentioned. I'm still thinking about it.
No rush on my end- grabbing dinner and a beer then off to clean out the storage shed... so sewing operation is down, lol.
Won't be back up until the end of the month if all goes well.

Secondmouse

09-27-2016, 22:47

how we doing?..

Just Bill

09-28-2016, 10:01

how we doing?..

20 little steps forward, a minor FKT distraction, and one big step back that may turn out to be a leap forward- Busy September :D

I moved into the space I was trying to find, got all set up, then found out the person I was sub-leasing from did not have permission to do so. So I ran around for a week looking for a backup location as that person I leased from was asked to vacate the premises. But ended up talking to the landlord, who also happens to be a carpenter/builder/gc like me, and we have a handshake deal for now for me to not only stay, but double the space I'll have for only $100 more rent.

Got my first ever industrial sewing machine ($2000 Juki) so I had to take a step back and transfer my skills from a home machine to that- but after the initial learning curve its going pretty good. I ripped off a good 30-40 stuff sacks, got things tuned to my fabric and thread and cranked out a few gathered end hammocks. Last one I did I went from cut blank in a bag to sewn, folded and ready to ship in just 20 minutes! Getting close to nailing down my basic bridge hammock, did two rounds of prototypes and a "mini" production run of 5 is in progress right now to finalize the splicing details of the suspension. (Found a potential splicing sub too!)

But to what you care about... I need to get a good 100 projects through that machine before I attempt to sew a quilt on it of any quality. It's an amazingly good stitch quality but takes time to retune it for each project. Even the hammock fabrics are a bit touchy but I have moved into some Robic Hyper D 1.0 fabric and that's working well. Doing some .67 oz Membrane 10 will be next (the quilt shells).

However I did get my first sample back from the contract quilter in Michigan and whipped one up and it looks great- brought it out to a group hang at I&M canal and folks were pretty enthusiastic. Considered sending it your way but I will need it for demo's for sewing subs to reference... He's supposed to get me a full roll of quilted material soon... probably enough for 15 quilts (a few samples a few to sell/demo/test). You'll be on that list if you're interested still... but maybe end of October as a decent guess. But what I'm doing is a bit experimental so the quilting guy is struggling a bit to tune his machines for consistent results. On the plus side- got quilts in Texas, Utah, Colorado, Florida, Indiana, Illinois, and even New Zealand being tested and even an under-quilt design floating around a few folks. Have a good range of ages, skill levels, body types, activities (LD hiking, casual backpacking, hammock users, scout dads, etc.)

I have another bulk order of insulation and material coming for 100 quilts (this week) and there is a sewing contractor in Chicago who makes mattress toppers for all the big boys with 60' industrial quilting tables that I will be meeting with when that stuff comes to hopefully get him on board- that would be a Spring 17 production run of 100-200 quilts. Those will probably all be a large size just a quilt- 45-50* rated with zipper and about a 14-16oz. Unless you are really looking to shave weight or very petite- it is by far the more usefull and universal size. It's big enough to wear as a wind shell/quilt camp puffy, big enough to stack over most any bag for winter, and packs light and small enough for a summer quilt. So may only go into biz with one of the six sizes to start.

If I can get that bigger space, there are three local ladies here who have some sewing skills and we may be able to barter some sewing work in exchange for shop space/machine use during the day while I am at work. If so, then things will speed up pretty quick once they are trained. Got leads on three other local smaller sewing shops too who could do some work if I cut for them them... so that's where some of the first batch of quilted fabric will go to. If all goes well- I'll have one big producer, one quilter, one medium, and a few small folks to do some piecework or maybe allow a little customization for one-offs and small pieces.

I'll probably do the prototyping and some hammocks out of my shop. Even think I finally cracked the parallelogram hammock design that eluded me (a Hammock Forum problem)- that could be cool because the hammock itself is not lighter- but the netting, quilt, tarp, etc are all much smaller for what you get. Full prototype combo of that one (both quilts, hammock, net, tarp, poles, suspension, guy lines, stakes, and stuff sack) came in at 3.5 pounds and about 20L total.

My eye-talian webmaster is working on getting the shopping cart and some other stuff built on my website so that I can start throwing up some samples, prototypes, etc. and get some cash flow going.
But anything that comes up now will be runs of 10 or so that I toss up there as they are made. I don't want to do custom work- just produce stuff at a decent price and sell from stock. I will be adding a "hiker box" for odds and ends or functional but cosmetic experiments to be sold on the cheap. Having a bit of a garage sale on the site hopefully in November with lots of odds and ends. There will be a prototype bin on there too for stuff that is not ready for big production runs but is usable gear with no issues or defect- just not stuff that will be mass produced or stocked full time.

I even somehow got myself a sample of that Primaloft Gold Down Blend (750fill) so I'm pretty excited to play with that eventually for cold weather gear.

36407364083640936410

And somewhere in there... I even got a few chances to do this- which is the whole point of doing all that. :sun
36411

Secondmouse

09-28-2016, 16:11

wow, that's a lot of forward movement. I had no idea. you've got to be proud of that.

and yes, taking time to do that other, that is the whole point of everything, is it not?..

Just Bill

09-29-2016, 08:33

wow, that's a lot of forward movement. I had no idea. you've got to be proud of that.

and yes, taking time to do that other, that is the whole point of everything, is it not?..

Often feels like I'm getting nowhere- specially when my kids miss me- but yar, mine are 5 and 2 so now's the time to try.
So that's the plan and hopefully this turns into being around more often in the future.

Or at least getting a quilt in some folks hands. :D

capehiker

09-29-2016, 14:25

Secondmouse

09-29-2016, 16:40

Often feels like I'm getting nowhere- specially when my kids miss me- but yar, mine are 5 and 2 so now's the time to try.
So that's the plan and hopefully this turns into being around more often in the future.

Or at least getting a quilt in some folks hands. :D

well actually, I'm getting kind of curious about a bridge hammock too, now that I see what you got going on.

but sorry, I'm all flush up with stuff sacks... :D

Just Bill

10-03-2016, 13:16

Bill-

I would love to help you get cash flowing by putting some in your shopping cart. Let me know when I can help! I have been considering adding a synthetic quilt to my line up if you're producing them. I haven't bought any gear in a while so I have some spending $$ ready to be put to use. :D

Thanks! As I often joke with my wife, I've sold a ton of gear already if I only had any gear to sell :datz:datz
Hopefully in the next month or two I can finally start changing that.

well actually, I'm getting kind of curious about a bridge hammock too, now that I see what you got going on.

but sorry, I'm all flush up with stuff sacks... :D

That bridge is pretty sweet I gotta say. Bit similar to the Grizz Bridge Ariel though I'm happy to say that I arrived at most of my design independent of his but I owe a huge thanks to him and WV for helping to work mine out over the last few years. The Ariel is a very nice bridge but has the endcaps and some other minor dimensional differences that make it a bit less "universal". This one has 2' extensions on each side (his has about 8") so this bridge lets you choose from more sleep positions and options because of the extra length (bout 8' usable) and the adjustable ends. Bit more flexible overall as you can easily modify your sleeping position of choice- often from within the hammock itself. Works great for my 220lb butt and for my 120lb wife the same. My wife really dislikes hammocks and gets nauseous in a gathered end, so when she ends up dozing off in one... I know I got a winner, lol. Got about 6-8 people in it too at the last group hang of many different body types and weights- the only guy a bit off was bout 5'8" and 250 but he was all belly- though he found it comfy as well.

The one you see here is heading out to someone who is hopefully going to be able to be a splicing subcontractor. I did about 10 of these in the last week or so to nail the final details down but hopefully (after some testing to confirm) this round of prototypes looks to be final. Had some minor tear out on the last round due to splicing issues but this round seems good so far. Not quite the most gram weenie effort but for an all around awesomely comfy bridge these are hard to beat- you can even belly sleep in this one.

Looks like it's coming in at 9.5 ounces average weight for the body and suspension. You'd have to add tree straps(1.5-4 ounces) and poles (9.75 ounces). Bout the lightest with Kevlar straps and dynaglide whoopies would be about 20-21 ounces total- (though beats Grizz's Ariel with trekking poles I believe so not too shabby). Unlike me, the guy who is testing this one is a trekking pole user and he's going to look at how a trekking pole conversion would work... so could yet be a fairly light piece for comfy backpacking gear at under a pound tree to tree. The big thing with a bridge (unlike a gathered end) is you can just toss a sleeping pad into it if you want and have the ability to either use the gear you have or go to ground/shelter/cowboy camp along the way too without carrying much more than you normally would or having to invest in underquilts or special tarps. Though like anything else- a double layer or UQ is still the most comfy if you squirm. If not though- tossing a pad in this guy is like sleeping on a portaledge or a cot.

So maybe the second mouse gets the bridge too?

36437

Though also just finished three 9'6" Robic XL 1.0 hammocks that came out at 6 5/8 ounces and that model is durn comfy too for the SUL crowd and I have a roll of that material I am going to crank out a few things with I hope to have out and about in a month or so.

But what you really care about- here's 270 yards of Primaloft Gold that just showed up (100 or so 45* quilts)- so time to go put a few sewing contractors to work and see if I can get em whipped up. :D
I'm at their mercy and schedule though on the quilts overall- so knocking out some hammocks and other stuff in the meantime. But getting this bulk order in was holding that up a hair so full speed (at least for the sewn goods industry) ahead.
36438

Secondmouse

10-03-2016, 15:03

Thanks! As I often joke with my wife, I've sold a ton of gear already if I only had any gear to sell :datz:datz
Hopefully in the next month or two I can finally start changing that.

That bridge is pretty sweet I gotta say. Bit similar to the Grizz Bridge Ariel though I'm happy to say that I arrived at most of my design independent of his but I owe a huge thanks to him and WV for helping to work mine out over the last few years. The Ariel is a very nice bridge but has the endcaps and some other minor dimensional differences that make it a bit less "universal". This one has 2' extensions on each side (his has about 8") so this bridge lets you choose from more sleep positions and options because of the extra length (bout 8' usable) and the adjustable ends. Bit more flexible overall as you can easily modify your sleeping position of choice- often from within the hammock itself. Works great for my 220lb butt and for my 120lb wife the same. My wife really dislikes hammocks and gets nauseous in a gathered end, so when she ends up dozing off in one... I know I got a winner, lol. Got about 6-8 people in it too at the last group hang of many different body types and weights- the only guy a bit off was bout 5'8" and 250 but he was all belly- though he found it comfy as well.

The one you see here is heading out to someone who is hopefully going to be able to be a splicing subcontractor. I did about 10 of these in the last week or so to nail the final details down but hopefully (after some testing to confirm) this round of prototypes looks to be final. Had some minor tear out on the last round due to splicing issues but this round seems good so far. Not quite the most gram weenie effort but for an all around awesomely comfy bridge these are hard to beat- you can even belly sleep in this one.

Looks like it's coming in at 9.5 ounces average weight for the body and suspension. You'd have to add tree straps(1.5-4 ounces) and poles (9.75 ounces). Bout the lightest with Kevlar straps and dynaglide whoopies would be about 20-21 ounces total- (though beats Grizz's Ariel with trekking poles I believe so not too shabby). Unlike me, the guy who is testing this one is a trekking pole user and he's going to look at how a trekking pole conversion would work... so could yet be a fairly light piece for comfy backpacking gear at under a pound tree to tree. The big thing with a bridge (unlike a gathered end) is you can just toss a sleeping pad into it if you want and have the ability to either use the gear you have or go to ground/shelter/cowboy camp along the way too without carrying much more than you normally would or having to invest in underquilts or special tarps. Though like anything else- a double layer or UQ is still the most comfy if you squirm. If not though- tossing a pad in this guy is like sleeping on a portaledge or a cot.

So maybe the second mouse gets the bridge too?

36437

Though also just finished three 9'6" Robic XL 1.0 hammocks that came out at 6 5/8 ounces and that model is durn comfy too for the SUL crowd and I have a roll of that material I am going to crank out a few things with I hope to have out and about in a month or so.

But what you really care about- here's 270 yards of Primaloft Gold that just showed up (100 or so 45* quilts)- so time to go put a few sewing contractors to work and see if I can get em whipped up. :D
I'm at their mercy and schedule though on the quilts overall- so knocking out some hammocks and other stuff in the meantime. But getting this bulk order in was holding that up a hair so full speed (at least for the sewn goods industry) ahead.
36438

as for the bridge hammock - boom, headshot!!! my interest in the bridge is exactly for the times I hike on trails with shelters and to allow use of a pad for those "drop and flop" moments when I'm too pooped to pant. IMO, that trekking pole conversion idea is solid gold..

how much weight will it suport? paraphrasing Forrest Gump, "I am not a small man"...

but you're right, my initial interest is those rolls of snow stacked in the back of your Shaggy-mobile. your lightweight and compressible summer top quilt is where I started with this

I'm also thinking of a synthetic insulation/DWR shell summer-weight UQ that can stand alone, or serve as a temp-extender/cover layer for a 30* down UQ. hoping to get into the 0-10* range, which would be extreme for me, living in the SE. something in the 2lb range combined, utilizing one suspension...

by the way, does your book have pichers in it? I just luvs me some good pichers... I'm reading the Kindle version and of course paperwhite Kindle don't do pichers so good..

Just Bill

10-03-2016, 16:12

as for the bridge hammock - boom, headshot!!! my interest in the bridge is exactly for the times I hike on trails with shelters and to allow use of a pad for those "drop and flop" moments when I'm too pooped to pant. IMO, that trekking pole conversion idea is solid gold..

how much weight will it suport? paraphrasing Forrest Gump, "I am not a small man"...

but you're right, my initial interest is those rolls of snow stacked in the back of your Shaggy-mobile. your lightweight and compressible summer top quilt is where I started with this

I'm also thinking of a synthetic insulation/DWR shell summer-weight UQ that can stand alone, or serve as a temp-extender/cover layer for a 30* down UQ. hoping to get into the 0-10* range, which would be extreme for me, living in the SE. something in the 2lb range combined, utilizing one suspension...

by the way, does your book have pichers in it? I just luvs me some good pichers... I'm reading the Kindle version and of course paperwhite Kindle don't do pichers so good..

No pitchers (ceptin the pitchers of beer) in my book besides the cover. A mind is a terrible thing to waste, and a lie is best told when your mind fills in the blanks. ;)

That there bridge... technically 200 or so will probably be the street legal rating for single layer 1.6, 250 for a double if I do one. Though I'm 225 right now and have used similar bridges for up to about 60 nights (only problem with being a gear making guy is I rarely have gear that doesn't get replaced for the next round, lol). That and since moving- I can't sleep outside every night as I used to so indoor testing ain't quite right in my opinion to count personally.

But on that note- think you noted/saw at Hammock Forums that the fella (V.Allen) who used to make big guy bridges is gone and I am going to try to take that on. Those would go to 375/400 lbs- but they will be a good pound just for the body. I need to nail this bridge first then I can scale up or down with the construction techniques. Really I want to try to find a sub for those- otherwise I'll be the one making them all and it will bog down- but they are not easy to make and take close to 6 hours even mass producing them.

The bigger risk- in my opinion- is the poles on the weights- especially trekking poles. I've been punched in the face by a bridge before (tried hanging on 3/4 grosgrain) and it's not pleasant. While a fall could break your tailbone or similar unpleasant things... a pole failing right by your face is the scarier thing to me by far. So a bridge does go a bit beyond the ol "never hang further than you're willing to fall" warning when it comes to weight limits. Bumping the spreader bar up to a 3/4" would probably push my bridge into the 250 range or more in single layer... but that gets hard to recommend as the poles could be a pound alone right there and the risk of fabric failure is higher. My latest design is pretty good at spreading the load, but there is quite a bit more load on a bridge than on a gathered end.

The Membrane 10 (shell) has a DWR built into it already- so my synthetic 45* UQ would work perfect as you describe. (the math is 70-(second quilt)= bump in temps) So 70-45= 25* bump to your existing 30* Down UQ would put you in the zero to 10 range as well as protect your down from condensation of moisture in the outer layers. Same with top quilts. The 3/4 (roughly UG Phoenix sized) 45* synthetic prototypes thus far have been roughly 8.25 ounces for the body, and 10 ounces with UQ suspension. So provided your 30* UQ was about a pound with suspension you'd be well under 2lbs. I'm thinking you could probably hang your main UQ (the down) on it's regular suspension and then hang the synthetic by it's secondary suspension off the primary suspension of the main quilt. (assuming you followed that) So probably about 9 ounces to add a PLG cover if used that way. So far though- testing on those has been limited and only to about 50 degrees or so.

So yes... really- where my stuff fits in (and why my focus will be on it the 45* to start)
For a summer bag- half the cost of down and perhaps even better performance at summer temps.
Will never beat a down bag on specs or performance in the shoulder season range... so the 25* version is a bit specialized.
For winter- you can wear the same summer bag as a makeshift puffy at camp- and you can layer over your down to add a good 20* to your shoulder season bag.
And the best part- it's free-99 since you already bought it to use in the summer.

So hammock or ground- top or bottom- you get a summer set of synthetics (ideally from me)- you get shoulder season down of your choice- then you get a winter set for free.

Now... there may be some debate or argument for adding a bit more protection to a UQ... so debating perhaps offering those with a 1.0oz or heavier shell for a little brush protection. But on the other hand, unlike down, you accidently snag a thorn, catch a spark, or burn your quilt making "coffee from the 'ammock" ala Shug- your synthetic UQ won't puke geese all over camp and you can simply repair it when you feel like it. So not sure it's worth the upgraded shell weight. Being a tight weave, calendared, DWR fabric- it's already certified as downproof (functionally windproof) so a heavier fabric won't do much that already isn't being done in an UQ.

And if you camp in really brushy/thorny areas (which you may in the southeast)- then you're probably best with a true UQ protector made from a single wear layer in my opinion. That way if it's trashed or snaggled to death over a season or two you can replace that rather than your entire UQ as it wears.

Another Kevin

10-03-2016, 16:49

Looks like it's coming in at 9.5 ounces average weight for the body and suspension. You'd have to add tree straps(1.5-4 ounces) and poles (9.75 ounces). Bout the lightest with Kevlar straps and dynaglide whoopies would be about 20-21 ounces total- (though beats Grizz's Ariel with trekking poles I believe so not too shabby). Unlike me, the guy who is testing this one is a trekking pole user and he's going to look at how a trekking pole conversion would work... so could yet be a fairly light piece for comfy backpacking gear at under a pound tree to tree. The big thing with a bridge (unlike a gathered end) is you can just toss a sleeping pad into it if you want and have the ability to either use the gear you have or go to ground/shelter/cowboy camp along the way too without carrying much more than you normally would or having to invest in underquilts or special tarps. Though like anything else- a double layer or UQ is still the most comfy if you squirm. If not though- tossing a pad in this guy is like sleeping on a portaledge or a cot.

So maybe the second mouse gets the bridge too?

Get into production already! Being able to try hanging with just my existing ground gear (I already have a serviceable tarp, sleeping bags of various weights, pads of various sorts), without having to jump feet first into an entirely new system, would be wonderful! And I use poles - so hammock + tarp + bug net shouldn't come out to be too much heavier than my tent. I recognize that hanging is more about comfort and flexible site selection than weight.

I'm on the heavy side, like you, and a wee bit taller if I recall correctly. With all outdoor gear, I'm always just at the boundary of needing the "big guy" stuff - and I generally discover that I fit better in a Long sleeping bag, need a Tall backpack, and so on... just by a little bit, but that little bit makes a huge difference. When you're in production and it comes time to get down to brass tacks, that'll likely be a consideration.

Just Bill

10-03-2016, 17:21

Get into production already! Being able to try hanging with just my existing ground gear (I already have a serviceable tarp, sleeping bags of various weights, pads of various sorts), without having to jump feet first into an entirely new system, would be wonderful! And I use poles - so hammock + tarp + bug net shouldn't come out to be too much heavier than my tent. I recognize that hanging is more about comfort and flexible site selecion than weight.
:) Well- I had Laz and Mr Kirk in mind for the XL hammock mentioned above (SUL 9'6").

You still remain on my list of folks destined for a hammock to test out. I was thinking a 12-14 ounce double layer gathered end in the 10'6" range so you could just slip your pad into it. But maybe a bridge is better for you/preferable? They are a bit more forgiving regarding perfect pitch/learning curve but being a trekking pole challenged hiker I don't have anything worked out for the conversion (though Grizz and many others have tutorials) so maybe that's something you may enjoy tinkering with too. A minimal bug net could be done fairly easily for either one (a roll of netting showed up a week ago) though I also think a sewing a netting perimeter to a tarp to make a portable screen house may be the best option for summer time up in the northcountry so you weren't couped up in the hammock. (one big tent advantage)

I think you have a wide pad already? A wide neo-air xtherm will get you to about freezing in the air- but a narrow pad is little fun at all. A bridge does often need a bit bigger tarp (bout 8'x11') where a gathered end you can get away with a 6x9 pitched Asym (and use your trekking poles for awning/porch mode in a pinch) so I figured a gathered end would slip into your existing kit nice and neat at little or no weight penalty to about freezing. A regular Neo-air gets you about 50* pretty safely.

A gathered end (typically) makes a much better camp chair or rest time accessory too... the bridge can make an acceptable bench- but you're going for night time comfort there. A gathered end is something you'd be more likely to use "pocket hammock style" during the day- though hammocks are dangerous attractors of the nap monster best used with caution.

I have some testers out there, even some weekenders- but no truly clueless weekenders ;)
Let me know... I was planning on one of my double layers coming your way after our last discussion but if a bridge sounds more appealing that can be arranged as well. Any hammock is more comfy with an UQ- but a hammock that can work with a pad well is often an improvement over the ground regardless. And it's still quite tough to sleep on an UQ in a shelter or cowboy camp on a peak with a hammock- so seems the best compromise overall.

I just got the roll of fabric I needed to make those and will probably be spinning off a few of those next while the bridge hammocks go on the shelf for a bit as the splicing details are sorted out. Next round of bridges is probably a month away.

The confounding thing about hammocks to me has always been the hassle of switching or being stuck one way or the other for those who can or may want options. That and most of us who come from the ground own durn near all we need to own except for the hammock itself as you mentioned so I tried to work backwards with my stuff (IE add a hammock, not start with one and add the rest). Sides- coyote folk do most things backwards so there really wasn't an option for me either way :D

Secondmouse

10-04-2016, 01:03

No pitchers (ceptin the pitchers of beer) in my book besides the cover. A mind is a terrible thing to waste, and a lie is best told when your mind fills in the blanks. ;)

That there bridge... technically 200 or so will probably be the street legal rating for single layer 1.6, 250 for a double if I do one. Though I'm 225 right now and have used similar bridges for up to about 60 nights (only problem with being a gear making guy is I rarely have gear that doesn't get replaced for the next round, lol). That and since moving- I can't sleep outside every night as I used to so indoor testing ain't quite right in my opinion to count personally.

But on that note- think you noted/saw at Hammock Forums that the fella (V.Allen) who used to make big guy bridges is gone and I am going to try to take that on. Those would go to 375/400 lbs- but they will be a good pound just for the body. I need to nail this bridge first then I can scale up or down with the construction techniques. Really I want to try to find a sub for those- otherwise I'll be the one making them all and it will bog down- but they are not easy to make and take close to 6 hours even mass producing them.

The bigger risk- in my opinion- is the poles on the weights- especially trekking poles. I've been punched in the face by a bridge before (tried hanging on 3/4 grosgrain) and it's not pleasant. While a fall could break your tailbone or similar unpleasant things... a pole failing right by your face is the scarier thing to me by far. So a bridge does go a bit beyond the ol "never hang further than you're willing to fall" warning when it comes to weight limits. Bumping the spreader bar up to a 3/4" would probably push my bridge into the 250 range or more in single layer... but that gets hard to recommend as the poles could be a pound alone right there and the risk of fabric failure is higher. My latest design is pretty good at spreading the load, but there is quite a bit more load on a bridge than on a gathered end.

The Membrane 10 (shell) has a DWR built into it already- so my synthetic 45* UQ would work perfect as you describe. (the math is 70-(second quilt)= bump in temps) So 70-45= 25* bump to your existing 30* Down UQ would put you in the zero to 10 range as well as protect your down from condensation of moisture in the outer layers. Same with top quilts. The 3/4 (roughly UG Phoenix sized) 45* synthetic prototypes thus far have been roughly 8.25 ounces for the body, and 10 ounces with UQ suspension. So provided your 30* UQ was about a pound with suspension you'd be well under 2lbs. I'm thinking you could probably hang your main UQ (the down) on it's regular suspension and then hang the synthetic by it's secondary suspension off the primary suspension of the main quilt. (assuming you followed that) So probably about 9 ounces to add a PLG cover if used that way. So far though- testing on those has been limited and only to about 50 degrees or so.

So yes... really- where my stuff fits in (and why my focus will be on it the 45* to start)
For a summer bag- half the cost of down and perhaps even better performance at summer temps.
Will never beat a down bag on specs or performance in the shoulder season range... so the 25* version is a bit specialized.
For winter- you can wear the same summer bag as a makeshift puffy at camp- and you can layer over your down to add a good 20* to your shoulder season bag.
And the best part- it's free-99 since you already bought it to use in the summer.

So hammock or ground- top or bottom- you get a summer set of synthetics (ideally from me)- you get shoulder season down of your choice- then you get a winter set for free.

Now... there may be some debate or argument for adding a bit more protection to a UQ... so debating perhaps offering those with a 1.0oz or heavier shell for a little brush protection. But on the other hand, unlike down, you accidently snag a thorn, catch a spark, or burn your quilt making "coffee from the 'ammock" ala Shug- your synthetic UQ won't puke geese all over camp and you can simply repair it when you feel like it. So not sure it's worth the upgraded shell weight. Being a tight weave, calendared, DWR fabric- it's already certified as downproof (functionally windproof) so a heavier fabric won't do much that already isn't being done in an UQ.

And if you camp in really brushy/thorny areas (which you may in the southeast)- then you're probably best with a true UQ protector made from a single wear layer in my opinion. That way if it's trashed or snaggled to death over a season or two you can replace that rather than your entire UQ as it wears.

first, enjoying yor book. I've never been lied to in so amiable a fashion... :D

2 questions on your bridge - is it the material you are using, or is it the construction that sets the weight limit? you say, "The bigger risk- in my opinion- is the poles on the weights- especially trekking poles." are you saying poles are the weight limit? and are trekking poles not stout enough?.. :eek:

anyway, I'm a fan of layering lightweight quilts/bags for a cold temp "sleep system". currently I use a Climashield 40* TQ and a 30* down bag in their own seasons and layer them for the coldest weather. because it's the top quilt, I sized the 40* quilt 6'6" x 58" (L/W). in hindsight, I probably don't need it that long, but wide will be important...

using this chart from EE website I hoped to attain 0-10* with the Climashied quilt over the down bag. I'd say this is close enough that the difference might be what I had for supper that night...http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/n-ou1isn/japp2/product_images/uploaded_images/layered-temp-ratings-layered-temperature-ratings.jpg?t=1443557092

carrying on with the "system" approach for UQ, I don't own a cold weather UQ but right now I'm using a 45 x 55 DIY UQ made using 2.5 Climashield. that's been good down to about 40* or so.

when it gets cold I've extended its range just by folding a good ol' Costco Down Throw inside but both of them together is still only 3/4 length. that was comfy in weather cold enough to leave a heavy frost on my tarp but any colder than that and I would want a full length.

so my dilemma is do I want a full or a 3/4 length outer quilt? maybe I'd want a full length down inner quilt and could get by with a 3/4 synthetic outer but I wonder how well the suspension will seal the outer against the inner.

maybe this is one area where stepping away from the layering and having a true cold weather UQ is worth it...

Another Kevin

10-04-2016, 02:05

Sides- coyote folk do most things backwards so there really wasn't an option for me either way :D

I've heard that about Coyotes. I'm a Turtle myself. Hahnunah the turtle is slow, but holds up the world.

I have a wide blue foam that goes over my regular Prolite in winter. I could certainly pick up a better wide pad, and I have a kid in mind who could use the blue foam. I'll take your advice that a narrow pad will be no fun.

I'm guessing that I'd be pretty good with the pitch. I'd wind up noting the angles that work and replicating them with my clinometer. That's because I think like an engineer. Beaver is a friend of mine, even if I'm a Turtle.

I'll take advice about configurations. Whenever I try to learn about them, it's like drinking from the firehose. I recognize that I may need to buy a couple of rounds of stuff before I'm satisfied. Which is fine, but everyone I talk to has a different idea of what the starter kit is, and most of the hangers I know didn't come from a life on the ground. (Which is peculiar, but I hang out with a peculiar bunch.)

Just Bill

10-04-2016, 11:01

I've heard that about Coyotes. I'm a Turtle myself. Hahnunah the turtle is slow, but holds up the world.

I have a wide blue foam that goes over my regular Prolite in winter. I could certainly pick up a better wide pad, and I have a kid in mind who could use the blue foam. I'll take your advice that a narrow pad will be no fun.

I'm guessing that I'd be pretty good with the pitch. I'd wind up noting the angles that work and replicating them with my clinometer. That's because I think like an engineer. Beaver is a friend of mine, even if I'm a Turtle.

I'll take advice about configurations. Whenever I try to learn about them, it's like drinking from the firehose. I recognize that I may need to buy a couple of rounds of stuff before I'm satisfied. Which is fine, but everyone I talk to has a different idea of what the starter kit is, and most of the hangers I know didn't come from a life on the ground. (Which is peculiar, but I hang out with a peculiar bunch.)

Sadly it seems that Raven is the one to consult on the magical world of hammocks. Beaver gets you going in the right direction but there's a certain bit of uncertainty in that messy geometry. Though it also depends on how tricky you want to make it too- and for those of us used to slapping down on the ol' turtles back- the variability from night to night in a hammock is dangerous ground for those who like to tinker with all the variables.

Some folks sling up a gathered end and sleep fine. That's the simplest system from a backpackers viewpoint- but a bit like a tarp in practice as they are so easy to get wrong.
A bridge is a bit more like a tent- pretty predictable on what it will do at the cost of some weight.

Pads can be finicky- or they can just slap in and get used. Your wide foamy would be fine to get started. Really it's simply a coverage issue- on the ground the sleeping quilt/bag does 2/3rds to 3/4 of the work while in a hammock the inverse is true as the hammock wraps up your sides. The pads don't quite contour to your shape in a gathered end, though the bridge covers that. So a the bigger a pad (or with the pad extenders) used in a gathered end the bigger the target and the less likely you are to slip off it and end up with a cold butt or shoulder.

I think most folks should start with just a basic gathered end hammock. It works well for most people, and with a bit of practice you can sleep comfortably on a pad. With basically one piece of gear (hammock) you can convert your system over. From there you're mainly talking bells and whistles for increased comfort or to address issues discovered. Though I can clearly say that an UQ is far superior to a pad in hammock mode... you're committed at that point and lose the ability to go back to ground/shelter/mountaintop. Okay on a shorter trip, unacceptable in my opinion on a longer one- so my focus has always been on making a pad work regardless.

The best bet for anyone is to hit a group hang- though for you- looks like we will group hang by USPS, lol.

Longer term- as this is a general issue- I've been debating a "rental" kit with a few different styles of hammock available to try so folks could order something and get a feel for each. One issue I noticed though, with a bad back it takes me a day or so to "switch" from bed to bridge or even from a certain gathered end to another. So hard to simply try one and be done or even a night. You really need a good 2-3 days in a row to know. That said though- the bridge style is the closest "one size fits all" approach. But I'd hesitate to steer a backpacker right to one before giving a gathered end an honest try.

Just Bill

10-04-2016, 11:38

first, enjoying yor book. I've never been lied to in so amiable a fashion... :D

2 questions on your bridge - is it the material you are using, or is it the construction that sets the weight limit? you say, "The bigger risk- in my opinion- is the poles on the weights- especially trekking poles." are you saying poles are the weight limit? and are trekking poles not stout enough?.. :eek:

anyway, I'm a fan of layering lightweight quilts/bags for a cold temp "sleep system". currently I use a Climashield 40* TQ and a 30* down bag in their own seasons and layer them for the coldest weather. because it's the top quilt, I sized the 40* quilt 6'6" x 58" (L/W). in hindsight, I probably don't need it that long, but wide will be important...

using this chart from EE website I hoped to attain 0-10* with the Climashied quilt over the down bag. I'd say this is close enough that the difference might be what I had for supper that night...http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/n-ou1isn/japp2/product_images/uploaded_images/layered-temp-ratings-layered-temperature-ratings.jpg?t=1443557092

carrying on with the "system" approach for UQ, I don't own a cold weather UQ but right now I'm using a 45 x 55 DIY UQ made using 2.5 Climashield. that's been good down to about 40* or so.

when it gets cold I've extended its range just by folding a good ol' Costco Down Throw inside but both of them together is still only 3/4 length. that was comfy in weather cold enough to leave a heavy frost on my tarp but any colder than that and I would want a full length.

so my dilemma is do I want a full or a 3/4 length outer quilt? maybe I'd want a full length down inner quilt and could get by with a 3/4 synthetic outer but I wonder how well the suspension will seal the outer against the inner.

maybe this is one area where stepping away from the layering and having a true cold weather UQ is worth it...

The formula I mentioned before is basically the one behind that chart (IE- same thing). So we're on the same page there.

On the bridge... a bridge is not a gathered end. Guess that's the moral of the story. I've only ever had one hammock fail (a gathered end parallelogram) out of the 100+ I've made/used.
I hung on a 1.0 ounce hyperD micro bridge that I poked a hole into the body with the pole for 30 days before I retired it (never failed, never patched the hole). I don't think I've ever heard of a true pole failure. I have seen some reports of trekking pole modifications failing. (tip breaks on the pole, nylon webbing mods breaking, tear outs at corners, etc) Though again nothing really dramatic.
You'd need Professor Hammock (Grizz) to run the math, but tent poles used for bridge poles are pretty stout. A trekking pole by contrast is something that many thru-hikers report damaging or breaking on a fairly regular basis.

Guess the moral of the story- If you're hanging in a gathered end- you're mainly talking just the fabric rating. And a failure will rarely be a violent thing, but it does happen. If you keep it low a failure is basically like sitting on the ground too hard. A bridge has a lot more going on, fabric, stitching, webbings or channels, point loads at the corners (where poles attach), high compression forces on the poles and the chance of you bumping or banging them. A trekking pole can be a fine connection- it's just not as clean as a tent pole. So the odds of you loading the pole off axis are higher. If you are cautious- you probably won't step on the pole, grab it, or do all the things you aren't supposed to do... but for the general public you have to assume that may happen.

Not that it's common, but if it went bad it could go really bad on a recessed bar bridge as the poles are closer to the parts and pieces you care about. So long story short... trekking poles are a bit riskier than a dedicated pole. It probably falls into the SGT Rock "You're gunna die" category of acceptable risk, but it is something folks should choose on their own and be educated about. If I sell you a bridge, with poles, I know what those poles are and I matched them to the intended load. It would be impossible to test every trekking pole on the market or even guarantee that you didn't bend or kink the pole slightly at some point in your hike- which could cause it to buckle under pressure. So it's impossible to reliably rate a trekking pole universally- though I think that objectively there is enough data and info at Hammock Forums for a user to comfortably make an educated choice- just not enough for a manufacturer to make a blanket statement on the matter.

Generally speaking-
I can hang easily on a .490 pole if it's a single piece not longer than 26" (micro bridge) and call that about 200lbs. That requires a few tricks to though that I don't wish to share.
A standard two piece .625 pole 36" long is probably safe to 300 lbs, but generally manufacturers ratings are closer to 200lbs. A three piece pole of longer length has been employed in the Ridgerunner for some time.
To clear a manufacturers rating of around 225- you need to jump to .75" diameter poles- which is what V.Allen was successfully using on his big guy bridges.

There just hasn't been enough pole testing though generally speaking to go much beyond those numbers as bridges are a small segment of a small industry and you won't see Easton reaching out anytime soon and rating their stuff. Though I believe that Grizz, TeeDee and others have done enough math and experienced based testing to call those numbers safe.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0261/6507/files/Hammock_weight_limit_chart.jpg?2554899078966254555
I use Kyle's fabric, and agree with his rating chart.

The 36" bridge I've shown- is a single layer of 1.6 hyper D. Which carries a 300 lb rating. While my latest design is pretty smooth, there is always some higher stress/point loading on a bridge compared to a gathered end. So to answer your question directly... 2/3rds of the fabrics rating for a bridge seems accurate to me and is what I use. 200lbs for a .625 two piece pole is a pretty widely accepted rating. So combined they match up about right at 200 lbs. Having tested them pretty extensively at 225 or more- that's a pretty fair rating I would say.

When I start work on the big guy bridges, I will be bumping up to a Hex70 (2.2 ounce) with .75" poles and a target rating of 300lbs. I don't think I can make a blanket statement higher than that but I would expect that combo to go to 350 or so and there are some volunteers who will "hang at their own risk" to see if we can push those limits. Doing true double layers in a bridge can be tricky. Assembling multiple layers of fabric on curves with structural seams that ensure even loading is difficult in a single layer... so while a double layer gathered end in 1.6 might hold 500lbs easily... again I'd probably only say 2/3 of that in a bridge.

For now.... assuming things go okay for me a long term project is to push those limits and establish some better guidelines. But that's a ways off; Brandon at Warbonnet's limited testing is about all the hard data we have to work with at the moment, and he's understandably cautious. Failure testing is a bit harder with a hammock too IMHO. You can load up just about any hammock once with a lot more weight than you would think. But dynamic loads versus static loads are a concern seldom addressed. More importantly though- How does it do on night 50 or night 100. That's why the load ratings are always a bit conservative as repeated load cycling plus wear and tear are much different than simply putting sacks of pea gravel in a brand new hammock until it fails.

Just Bill

10-04-2016, 11:58

On the UQ... not totally my area of personal expertise but..
If you're going to try a bridge- I'd hold off- different quilt entirely.

Generally speaking though- I personally find a long 3/4 (shoulder to ankle) to be good until the 20's. And then tugging it up a bit and slipping a foamy into your footbox does the job to about zero. So most folks I think do fine with a decent sized 3/4 (as opposed to some of the micro 3/4 or even half quilts). If you're lying on the diagonal you're covering more than you think you might- and actually I find that it's easier to hang draft free at that length as the quilt breaks at the point where your shoulders smooth things out and about where any calf ridge lines fade. When you go full length it's hard to bust that scoop that the calf ridge line often creates or the general accordion shape that each end takes on.

So I'd say a nice 20-30* Phoenix sized down under quilt is the most versatile if you only owned one. It can be vented easily or hung loose as temps go up. Certainly not looking to talk anyone out of something I sell- but I'd rather see somebody happy with what they bought overall. UQ's are fairly unique in that they do much better than a TQ when you go overboard on the rating. In addition, the "footprint" or square yards of material needed is relatively small- so the weight penalty for jumping from a 50* to a 20* isn't much really. If you own more than one set... makes sense... but I see that if you want one to start with that's a decent way to do it and at about $200 bucks it's not an insane investment. Though to give you an idea I'm really hoping to pull off $100 flat for my summer UQ...but again I think most folks have a need for a summer set and a three season set. Other than cost, there isn't a great reason for that three season set not to be down. The summer stuff is where the synthetic shines. Cost, allergies, moisture concerns would be the only compelling reasons to use synthetics past 35* or so as your primary piece of insulation.

As far as stacking- If you hung each quilt on it's own suspension I wouldn't see a huge issue with putting a 3/4 summer quilt over a full length 3 season other than some fiddle factor with the initial setup. But trying to hang them both off one main suspension might be problematic.

Personally haven't messed with it enough to be honest. From a backpackers standpoint... there isn't as much value in using a hammock in deep cold to me. I can do much better on the ground with a mummy bag from a weight and bulk standpoint- but I do enjoy pushing the limits and being out of the snow... but it's really a labor of love and not practicality to hang below zero in my personal experience. When you start talking sleds/pulks and 30-40 liters of insulation... I'm pretty good with an Xtherm, 1/8 GG foamy and a -10 mummy :D. That and when there really is snow- hard to beat your own little snow bed for comfort.

Secondmouse

10-04-2016, 13:15

The formula I mentioned before is basically the one behind that chart (IE- same thing). So we're on the same page there.

On the bridge... a bridge is not a gathered end. Guess that's the moral of the story. I've only ever had one hammock fail (a gathered end parallelogram) out of the 100+ I've made/used.
I hung on a 1.0 ounce hyperD micro bridge that I poked a hole into the body with the pole for 30 days before I retired it (never failed, never patched the hole). I don't think I've ever heard of a true pole failure. I have seen some reports of trekking pole modifications failing. (tip breaks on the pole, nylon webbing mods breaking, tear outs at corners, etc) Though again nothing really dramatic.
You'd need Professor Hammock (Grizz) to run the math, but tent poles used for bridge poles are pretty stout. A trekking pole by contrast is something that many thru-hikers report damaging or breaking on a fairly regular basis.

Guess the moral of the story- If you're hanging in a gathered end- you're mainly talking just the fabric rating. And a failure will rarely be a violent thing, but it does happen. If you keep it low a failure is basically like sitting on the ground too hard. A bridge has a lot more going on, fabric, stitching, webbings or channels, point loads at the corners (where poles attach), high compression forces on the poles and the chance of you bumping or banging them. A trekking pole can be a fine connection- it's just not as clean as a tent pole. So the odds of you loading the pole off axis are higher. If you are cautious- you probably won't step on the pole, grab it, or do all the things you aren't supposed to do... but for the general public you have to assume that may happen.

Not that it's common, but if it went bad it could go really bad on a recessed bar bridge as the poles are closer to the parts and pieces you care about. So long story short... trekking poles are a bit riskier than a dedicated pole. It probably falls into the SGT Rock "You're gunna die" category of acceptable risk, but it is something folks should choose on their own and be educated about. If I sell you a bridge, with poles, I know what those poles are and I matched them to the intended load. It would be impossible to test every trekking pole on the market or even guarantee that you didn't bend or kink the pole slightly at some point in your hike- which could cause it to buckle under pressure. So it's impossible to reliably rate a trekking pole universally- though I think that objectively there is enough data and info at Hammock Forums for a user to comfortably make an educated choice- just not enough for a manufacturer to make a blanket statement on the matter.

Generally speaking-
I can hang easily on a .490 pole if it's a single piece not longer than 26" (micro bridge) and call that about 200lbs. That requires a few tricks to though that I don't wish to share.
A standard two piece .625 pole 36" long is probably safe to 300 lbs, but generally manufacturers ratings are closer to 200lbs. A three piece pole of longer length has been employed in the Ridgerunner for some time.
To clear a manufacturers rating of around 225- you need to jump to .75" diameter poles- which is what V.Allen was successfully using on his big guy bridges.

There just hasn't been enough pole testing though generally speaking to go much beyond those numbers as bridges are a small segment of a small industry and you won't see Easton reaching out anytime soon and rating their stuff. Though I believe that Grizz, TeeDee and others have done enough math and experienced based testing to call those numbers safe.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0261/6507/files/Hammock_weight_limit_chart.jpg?2554899078966254555
I use Kyle's fabric, and agree with his rating chart.

The 36" bridge I've shown- is a single layer of 1.6 hyper D. Which carries a 300 lb rating. While my latest design is pretty smooth, there is always some higher stress/point loading on a bridge compared to a gathered end. So to answer your question directly... 2/3rds of the fabrics rating for a bridge seems accurate to me and is what I use. 200lbs for a .625 two piece pole is a pretty widely accepted rating. So combined they match up about right at 200 lbs. Having tested them pretty extensively at 225 or more- that's a pretty fair rating I would say.

When I start work on the big guy bridges, I will be bumping up to a Hex70 (2.2 ounce) with .75" poles and a target rating of 300lbs. I don't think I can make a blanket statement higher than that but I would expect that combo to go to 350 or so and there are some volunteers who will "hang at their own risk" to see if we can push those limits. Doing true double layers in a bridge can be tricky. Assembling multiple layers of fabric on curves with structural seams that ensure even loading is difficult in a single layer... so while a double layer gathered end in 1.6 might hold 500lbs easily... again I'd probably only say 2/3 of that in a bridge.

For now.... assuming things go okay for me a long term project is to push those limits and establish some better guidelines. But that's a ways off; Brandon at Warbonnet's limited testing is about all the hard data we have to work with at the moment, and he's understandably cautious. Failure testing is a bit harder with a hammock too IMHO. You can load up just about any hammock once with a lot more weight than you would think. But dynamic loads versus static loads are a concern seldom addressed. More importantly though- How does it do on night 50 or night 100. That's why the load ratings are always a bit conservative as repeated load cycling plus wear and tear are much different than simply putting sacks of pea gravel in a brand new hammock until it fails.

got it. bridge is mostly a curiosity for me at this point. I did think it might be one way to justify carrying a pad for use on trails with shelters. I can easily wait for rough edges to be smoothed...

Just Bill

10-04-2016, 13:19

got it. bridge is mostly a curiosity for me at this point. I did think it might be one way to justify carrying a pad for use on trails with shelters. I can easily wait for rough edges to be smoothed...

How much do you weigh if'n you don't mind?
I don't mind sending a bridge with the quilt to check out when the time comes- I've got a few sitting here that will go to the discount bin that didn't make the final cut that I might reserve for folks to try.

Another Kevin

10-04-2016, 13:34

I think most folks should start with just a basic gathered end hammock. It works well for most people, and with a bit of practice you can sleep comfortably on a pad. With basically one piece of gear (hammock) you can convert your system over. From there you're mainly talking bells and whistles for increased comfort or to address issues discovered. Though I can clearly say that an UQ is far superior to a pad in hammock mode... you're committed at that point and lose the ability to go back to ground/shelter/mountaintop. Okay on a shorter trip, unacceptable in my opinion on a longer one- so my focus has always been on making a pad work regardless.

Since my focus has always been on shorter trips, the relative lack of flexibility might be perfectly OK for a while. That said, on my NPT attempt (which fell apart into several shorter trips), I kind of got bit by the bug, so there may be a longer trip once again in my future. I wouldn't take anything but a system that I'd already tuned on a long trip, of course.

It sounds as if I need to cut a deal with my daughter: "I'll clean and oil up your thread injector if you'll let me borrow it..." and start on something like http://diygearsupply.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/DIYGS-DoubleLayer-Hammock-lowres.jpg - perhaps even initially adding http://diygearsupply.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/DIYGS-BugNetZippered-lowres1.jpg to it. Maybe even whack up one of their tarp designs. I figure that except for the cat-cut tarps, it's all straight seams (even if they're rolled, or felled, or French, or whatever) so even a klutz like me can manage it if I use lots of pins and go slow. I've had a couple of people tell me that anyone over 6 feet should be using 11' raw fabric length rather than 10.5' and extend the tarp to match. I see a lot of different recommendations for materials and weights of fabric.. I'm guessing from what I see that 1.1 silnylon (or 1.0 silpoly like Dutch's XENON) would be about right for a hammock body and 1.4 sil for a hammock tarp? I don't want to go too flimsy - that's uncomfortable, but I don't want Muskrat piling any more weight on my back than needed. :)

Maybe I'm getting some ideas about 'what to do when snowbound....' ;)

Just Bill

10-04-2016, 13:37

What do you weigh Kevin? I know you're taller at 6'1" ish- but I'm 225 or so these days and while I know you have been out of commission for a bit I thought you were under 200 lbs

Another Kevin

10-04-2016, 15:48

What do you weigh Kevin? I know you're taller at 6'1" ish- but I'm 225 or so these days and while I know you have been out of commission for a bit I thought you were under 200 lbs

I've been porking up some while out of commission and I'm sure I'm back a good bit over 200 again. I think I'm moving in the right direction again. So figure a handful of pounds less than you.

Just Bill

10-04-2016, 16:52

Since my focus has always been on shorter trips, the relative lack of flexibility might be perfectly OK for a while. That said, on my NPT attempt (which fell apart into several shorter trips), I kind of got bit by the bug, so there may be a longer trip once again in my future. I wouldn't take anything but a system that I'd already tuned on a long trip, of course.

It sounds as if I need to cut a deal with my daughter: "I'll clean and oil up your thread injector if you'll let me borrow it..." and start on something like http://diygearsupply.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/DIYGS-DoubleLayer-Hammock-lowres.jpg - perhaps even initially adding http://diygearsupply.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/DIYGS-BugNetZippered-lowres1.jpg to it. Maybe even whack up one of their tarp designs. I figure that except for the cat-cut tarps, it's all straight seams (even if they're rolled, or felled, or French, or whatever) so even a klutz like me can manage it if I use lots of pins and go slow. I've had a couple of people tell me that anyone over 6 feet should be using 11' raw fabric length rather than 10.5' and extend the tarp to match. I see a lot of different recommendations for materials and weights of fabric.. I'm guessing from what I see that 1.1 silnylon (or 1.0 silpoly like Dutch's XENON) would be about right for a hammock body and 1.4 sil for a hammock tarp? I don't want to go too flimsy - that's uncomfortable, but I don't want Muskrat piling any more weight on my back than needed. :)

Maybe I'm getting some ideas about 'what to do when snowbound....' ;)

I've been porking up some while out of commission and I'm sure I'm back a good bit over 200 again. I think I'm moving in the right direction again. So figure a handful of pounds less than you.

I hear that, lol. I'm 190ish when in shape. I'm not a huge Doyle fan but I seem to follow his diet quite diligently.

The XL fabrics (56" versus 66") can be a game changer on the length- though some couldn't care less. But as mentioned- I can use a 10' blank in XL versus an 11' in regular fabric.
https://ripstopbytheroll.com/products/1-0-oz-robic-xl-ripstop-nylon

My first hammock was just ripstop nylon from Jo-Ann fabrics- but Kyle sells something even nicer to play with at a cheaper price. https://ripstopbytheroll.com/products/1-9-oz-ripstop-nylon-1

So basically- what you posted was what I was going to send you. An 11' blank double layer- but in XL fabric, not regular width. I call it a 10'6" finished, but actually with my new sewing machine and greater accuracy that actually works out to closer to 10'9" on a sewn end style hammock (as opposed to hanging off the fabric just below the gather). I like the sewn channel better as when you gather through the channel the fabric lays differently and gives you a bit more room and even spread of weight. The only failure I ever had was when doing a whipped end gather. I think a well done sewn end is stronger- but you need to be able to stitch pretty clean and even to do it right so most avoid it. With a whipped end you can play with your fold or tuck out some fabric to alter the hammock- but I find the newer diamond oriented ripstops to do this just fine without messing with that stuff.

I prefer the lighter fabrics- accepting that they may wear out after a 100-150 hangs at my weight. They stretch a bit more and are quite comfy- though Kyle's latest Robic fabric is a bit stiffer than his regular nylons, in 1.0 it's pretty nice and sews very clean.

I actually find the 9'6" finished length Robic XL in 1.0 to be the most comfortable for me- and even in single layer tossing a pad in there is easy as there is less room for it to scoot away. Again- doing single layer in that fabric is a bit tight- but the hammock is 6.75 ounces less the tree straps so like any UL gear if it fails along the way I'll take it, you just need to check it and treat it decent. But stepping up to the 1.6 oz per yard XL would put you about 10.5 ounces for a more weight appropriate rating and durable hammock. But I built my micro bridges out of 1.0 hyperD and they held up very well. Laz is on a micro hammock (a 4'6"x9' 5oz jobber) made out of 1.0 but he's closer to 165 ish if I recall.

I have a 10'8" or so Hex 70 XL hammock (2.2oz/sy)- it's fine for backyard lounging, drunken snoozing, and/or playing inside with the kids. But I found that heavier fabric was generally too stiff even at 225- you'd need to be in the 300lb range to enjoy it. But it's a nice one for car camping and multiple people. With the lighter fabric if you roll, side sleep, etc it stretches to conforms to you. I have a torn rotator cuff right now and though I cannot sleep on that side in a bed, I can in a light hammock fabric.

The other option is a test hammock. A 12' blank with the sides all simply hemmed. With that you can re-gather the finished blank into any size you like... though you could choke up on a sewn channel too.

hammocks are definitely an easy enough DIY project. Easier than a stuff sack really- it's just a large amount of fabric. Though best to practice elsewhere.
The fronkey style bugnets are also simple to make and that style might be nice to hang up for breaks in bug country too.

I do find, for short trips I know hanging is not an issue... I leave the pad at home and use an UQ.
I can deal with a gathered end pretty well for a short trip as well, in fact sometimes I enjoy it more.
But much more than a few days at a crack and I'm back to the bridge.

The bridge is easier to dial in and set up- but after a good 20 nights you get a pretty good feel for a gathered end too. And one season of use and you'd have it down. It's just that first impression that some folks don't get past in a gathered end that you need to get over if you do have a bad hang. Took me a while to warm up to gathered ends but it was mainly user error on my part that was to blame... though these latest rounds of fabric are a big help on that score... and if discussing weight- you'll never touch a gathered end/UQ combo with anything else.

Another Kevin

10-04-2016, 19:44

I hear that, lol. I'm 190ish when in shape. I'm not a huge Doyle fan but I seem to follow his diet quite diligently.
I'm not as bad as he is - he eats strangers' leftovers at restaurants - but the "stay active and eat what I please" plan works only when I can stay active enough. I'm getting back into the flow. If I can manage a weekend trip or a peakbag once or twice a month, I stay on top of the From-Skin-In base weight.

My first hammock was just ripstop nylon from Jo-Ann fabrics- but Kyle sells something even nicer to play with at a cheaper price. https://ripstopbytheroll.com/products/1-9-oz-ripstop-nylon-1
Heh. I'd also contemplated just gathering and whipping the ends of a taffeta tablecloth (http://www.tableclothsfactory.com/Crinkle-Taffeta-Tablecloth-60x126-p/tab_crnk_60126_sage.htm) to get a test article and learn the technique before working with the fancy outdoor stuff.

hammocks are definitely an easy enough DIY project. Easier than a stuff sack really- it's just a large amount of fabric. Though best to practice elsewhere.
I need new curtains at a couple of windows, too. My mother taught me that the cheapest way to get tier curtains in a fabric that you can stand is to buy flat bedsheets in a pattern you like and make curtains of the material. Use last season's designs from the outlet. Make extra pillowcases from the leftovers, and you wind up with a coordinating bedroom that looks as if it was made by an interior designer, at dirtbag prices.

It's just that first impression that some folks don't get past in a gathered end that you need to get over if you do have a bad hang.
The testing process is what I'm dreading. I was able to test ground gear in my back yard, but after some ice storms a few years back I really don't have a suitable pair of trees, so it's field testing. Most likely in one of the little state forests with my car a quarter mile away. Hmmm... could kill more than one bird with that stone. There are a fair number of miles of trail in Partridge Run that need mapping because everyone's maps are wrong, and they're not configured right for short loops. I could do it in a lot fewer trips if I pulled some weekends there. It's not really all that interesting trail, it's mostly for hunters and snowmobilists, but the Long Path uses that forest to make a connection, and I'd like the secondary trails to be mapped correctly. Throw the ground gear in the car (or just carry my Tyvek and sleep under the tarp) if things don't work out.

Just Bill

10-07-2016, 10:45

Another Kevin

10-07-2016, 11:20

Travelling for work for a few days...

We're working on teaching my wife to sew- so we also have a few less bedsheets but a few more curtains now in our new place. Basically a curtain is a hammock anyway (sides are just rolled hems, same with the bottom- and the rod pocket/sleeve is the same as a sewn end gathered hammock)

The tablecloth hammock is an easy way to start... but that fabric isn't too great for backpacking so you get the concept but not the feel.

Either way- I had planned on sending something to you to play with so I'll let you know when I do.
A poly-cro (window insulation kit) groundsheet is a nice emergency backup if testing isn't going well and adds little to the kit.

In that case, I already know how to make a hammock. I learnt that much at my mother's knee. What I didn't learn was the language: felled seam? French seam? and so on.... She was more into "fold it over like this, and then again like this, and pin it together, and then sew down this edge." Or maybe that's all I remember of her teaching. I haven't done it in a long time but I bet it'd come back if I had actual fabric in my hands.

I already have a suitable groundsheet. Tyvek rather than polycro, but it works. I don't know, maybe 40 grams heavier than Polycro in the same size? And it stands up to some pretty abrasive conditions where I'm not sure I'd trust that thin window film.

Secondmouse

10-07-2016, 13:25

Secondmouse

10-07-2016, 13:32

How much do you weigh if'n you don't mind?
I don't mind sending a bridge with the quilt to check out when the time comes- I've got a few sitting here that will go to the discount bin that didn't make the final cut that I might reserve for folks to try.

ah, based on your weight estimates I'd say I'm probably not a candidate for your design at this stage.

that's neither here nor there in regard to a bridge, I'm just looking for a way to justify carrying a pad... :D

Just Bill

10-07-2016, 13:42

ah, based on your weight estimates I'd say I'm probably not a candidate for your design at this stage.

that's neither here nor there in regard to a bridge, I'm just looking for a way to justify carrying a pad... :D

LOL, no problem- the "big guy bridge" is still in the works- but probably a good month away. I need to test the 36" one and work on the micro bridge next before I mess with the 300lb+ rated one.

Just Bill

10-07-2016, 13:48

ok I agree. I have done the top quilt stacking enough to where I'm comfortable with the results but I'm not sure I have enough experience with UQs (hammocks are completely different in regard to convective loss). perhaps it's best if I focus for now on how your PLG TQ will fit into my system...

you mention the Phoenix UQ. without trying to get you in trouble with anyone, is that your preference and recommendation? any opinion on Loco Libre gear?..

I don't personally own any UQ or TQ made by anyone but me... but the Phoenix is a bit bigger 3/4 quilt than some by specs and is the closest to the size I have.
Many of the hangers I have met in person like it... but Underground, Hammock Gear, or Enlightened Equipment are all vendors that come violently recommended by the hammock crowd so they are all safe bets.

Honestly... can't say much about the Loco Libre stuff. I don't know how/why/if that diagonal baffle system would add anything dramatic. Otherwise they have good reviews and feedback generally and sounds like the quality is good.

Just Bill

10-07-2016, 14:06

In that case, I already know how to make a hammock. I learnt that much at my mother's knee. What I didn't learn was the language: felled seam? French seam? and so on.... She was more into "fold it over like this, and then again like this, and pin it together, and then sew down this edge." Or maybe that's all I remember of her teaching. I haven't done it in a long time but I bet it'd come back if I had actual fabric in my hands.

I already have a suitable groundsheet. Tyvek rather than polycro, but it works. I don't know, maybe 40 grams heavier than Polycro in the same size? And it stands up to some pretty abrasive conditions where I'm not sure I'd trust that thin window film.

Kyle has a good clean video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Pqu8V4HcQ

I like the polycro (vs tyvek) only because of the weight and packsize in (what should be) an emergency/backup piece that sees little use. It is tougher than it seems but then again doesn't take too many errant pine needles or cones to cause you trouble. But it is window sealing season so a three pack of polycro is usually only a few bucks. That or a space blanket makes a decent little piece of backup for a day hike kit or for something like this IMHO.

The only thing really different with a hammock- is that the "curtain rod" channel is structural. It needs 3 good clean and even rows of stitching. That can be hard on a home machine or without practice to do. You are perforating the fabric with each row of stitching so they need to be good 1/8" or so stitches (8 stitches per inch) and at least 1/4" inch apart per general recommendations. But they are worth it. Here's a pic of how using the gather keeps the fabric spread just a little which helps eliminate or smooth some of the harder lines that cause the dreaded "calf ridge" you hear about.
36479

Otherwise you can see from the video it's pretty easy overall if you go slow.

Here's the test run of a double layer I'm working on (didn't quite nail this one) but it's the basic 11' (10'8" finished) double layer I was talking about above. Mine are just a bit different structurally (can't share that part) as this hammock has been discontinued by Dream Hammock I thought I'd see if I could resolve the issue he was having. Not looking to steal any business or make "me too" stuff- but I think that a good UL double layer has it's place for backpackers so if I can put this back on the market it makes some sense.
364803648136482

Here's the same hammock- with pad inside.
With the Exped Hyperlight Duo (luxury size or perfect for me and a kiddo to share)
And with the Exped Hyperlight M/W (splits the difference between a NeoAir and Xtherm)

I'd call that M/W a bare minimum for a hammock as far as pad size goes. Though I suppose you could put a narrow air pad into an SPE... the only reason to do that would be to save a few bucks on a new pad.

The exped pads are on par with Thermarest for weight and packsize but do much better in the air as they use actual insulation rather than trapped air/baffles.

Secondmouse- The big bridge I'm working on will be based around fitting that Hyperlight Duo pad for bigger fellas, luxury camping or (for me) an adult and a child sharing.
The pad is tight for two adults on the ground- but perfect for 1.5 adults and at 2lbs it's very light for what it is IMHO.

Dogwood

10-07-2016, 17:35

violently recommended by the hammock crowd

:D

Secondmouse

10-10-2016, 13:39

LOL, no problem- the "big guy bridge" is still in the works- but probably a good month away. I need to test the 36" one and work on the micro bridge next before I mess with the 300lb+ rated one.

ok cool, but I won't be needing it before the spring.

however, still focusing on TQ, that should be big guy size as well, considering I use it as the top layer over my 20* bag. is there a way to order this? I haven't been able to locate your site...

Just Bill

10-10-2016, 17:11

ok cool, but I won't be needing it before the spring.

however, still focusing on TQ, that should be big guy size as well, considering I use it as the top layer over my 20* bag. is there a way to order this? I haven't been able to locate your site...

:D I'm a bit stuck for a bit on the quilts (hence the hammock distractions). Short answer- YOU are on the list for the next prototype run.

My website is up- just nothing to do there really and no place to make an order at this time. That will probably change by the end of the year and we are working on putting the shopping cart and other stuff in this month. www.thisgearsforyou.com (http://www.thisgearsforyou.com)

Long answer:

I have updated my templates and sizing for the quilts in general (I'll post something soon). But basically I'm going down to 5 models (from 7+) in three sizes.
(Small) I will keep the XUL size for my few gram weenie, petite women and speedhiker customers- but that size is really only for them and not that popular in general testing. These will be 45* rated only.
(medium) There will be a Hammock/UL ground size that is cut generous for a hammock and decently for ground use (just right but not tight for me at 225/5'10" tall).
(large) The biggest will be the Big Guy- which will be generously cut for an average ground user (no pad straps needed) or cut right for a bigger guy in a hammock.

The medium and large quilts will be offered first in 45* but my new sizing has them differentially cut for stacking with my 25* version of each.
The 25* is basically my previous sizing and I have bumped up the sizes of the 45* versions so they stack properly and because that makes the 45* more versatile for those who want to stack synthetic over down and should cover a wider range of products this way (IE-down bags from different vendors). This does add an ounce or so- but since they are already light- I think I was a bit too spec focused and this little extra room is worth the utility and versatility based upon feedback from testers overall. Due to general demand- I have added zippers to all but the XUL model as well so a bit more feature creep on the weight but even some of my XUL folks asked for a zipper... so looks like I lost that debate, lol. All in all- looking like the medium will hit around 15 oz and the large around 17 oz- but until I get a few dozen made I wouldn't call anything official.

It's clear though from testing thus far that the 45* in medium and large are the two most useful and requested sizes so those will go first.

You personally are on the next round of prototypes; which I still hope to have going this month. Basically I'll reach out to you and the others on that list when they are finally ready.
From that batch I expect roughly 20 pieces of gear- Probably 7 Medium, 7 large and 7 underquilts depending on what I cut and sew and how the Michigan sub does on his end in terms of error free quilting. But everything on that round is basically spoken for. While this particular guy has proven to be a mild pain in my butt schedule wise- if I can develop him as a sub it would let me do more small/medium "special" runs of product long term and to be fair this is a difficult product to make and not his main line of work.

Hopefully there will also be some further test runs in Dec/January but officially I don't plan to be in business (taking open orders) until Spring 17.
As you can see it's easy to miss dates and have subs slide around on you; so I'm not planning on officially selling until everything is worked out. It's frustrating to have someone like yourself ready to plunk down cash- but I learned my lesson and I'll take that headache over promising product before it's ready. Until it's physically in my hand and ready to ship- I'm not selling anything. Last year I was almost in production and had a good fifty quilts sold when I went into an agreement with a supplier. But that supplier was a bust and couldn't hold any specs or quality control and we had to part ways as a result. Even if I got them in hand as ordered I wouldn't have felt right selling them for anything but half off as seconds. That experience was basically what got this thread started.

On the plus side, this delay and back and opportunity to do additional rounds of testing is creating a better product overall. Along the way though- I do hope to "sell" some more prototypes at a discount to folks like yourself in exchange for feedback. In meeting with different vendors and having more gear out in the wild I'm hearing that I actually sew pretty well (though I don't always agree) so I am more willing than in the past to get gear out to folks like yourself while I'm still ramping up and working out the kinks. I didn't want to sell anything I personally sewed because I didn't want any bad product out there so I've only either given it away or sold to folks for the cost of materials thus far. My idea of "professionally" made is much different than some other folks I've come across. I'm not picking on anyone but it appears my personal work is about "standard" in the cottage industry. I don't mean to be the grump on quality- but as a customer I don't expect to get something that looks like it came out of somebodies basement so I've kept my stuff on the shelf for a long time as a result. Since I've mainly been making my own gear I hadn't really looked around much at what others were doing, but having done so a bit more in the last year I do feel better about what my products look like in general compared to what people have been buying from other vendors. I guess a bit too much old school in me from when I worked at North Face and other retail where goods were still produced in mid-sized shops by some real badass folks. Guess much like everything else... standards are not quite there across the board any longer and that was 20 years ago, lol. I gave away two quilts this summer that I thought were total horse**** only to have several folks wanting to buy one for themselves... so what the heck do I know:rolleyes:

It is what it is- but I'm getting over my expectations a bit and plan to more actively sell/move prototypes in the near future which was the longwinded point I was working on making before I puked all over the keyboard there. :o