Newbie Question about LNT practice

[Lnj]

To start, I must say that I have already printed out and read the LNT guidelines. That's said, I am bit confused about the LNT about bathing, drinking, dirty water, etc. near water sources. Many threads have advised to soak a sweaty shirt in a creek or river to rinse out (no soap) or a hat to cool off, but then in the same sentence will say not to do it near a water source. I'm confused.

Is it bad to use a creek for swimming in? I have heard many people say swimming is ok. If so, then why is rinsing out a sweaty shirt or hat in the same "water source" bad? What's the difference? I do understand not bathing in a creek due to the soap contamination.

Also, after dinner is eaten (plates are eaten clean) we use a bucket or bowl of water to wash and rinse the plate off, do you save the rinse water in a separate bowl and if so, where do you pour it out? I am confused about what "dirty water" is and what to do with it.

[Shutterbug]

To start, I must say that I have already printed out and read the LNT guidelines. That's said, I am bit confused about the LNT about bathing, drinking, dirty water, etc. near water sources. Many threads have advised to soak a sweaty shirt in a creek or river to rinse out (no soap) or a hat to cool off, but then in the same sentence will say not to do it near a water source. I'm confused.

Is it bad to use a creek for swimming in? I have heard many people say swimming is ok. If so, then why is rinsing out a sweaty shirt or hat in the same "water source" bad? What's the difference? I do understand not bathing in a creek due to the soap contamination.

Also, after dinner is eaten (plates are eaten clean) we use a bucket or bowl of water to wash and rinse the plate off, do you save the rinse water in a separate bowl and if so, where do you pour it out? I am confused about what "dirty water" is and what to do with it.

A lot of LNT is simply using common sense. The basic principle is "Don't contaminate the source of your drinking water." How it applies varies with the water source. A rapidly flowing stream is harder to contaminate than a pond.

In a rapidly flowing stream, one can swim, rinse out a shirt, etc downstream from the place one gets the water. In a lake or pond, one should be careful to separate activities with enough distance to avoid contamination.

When you have contaminated water, empty it in the bushes at least 100 feet from the stream or pond.

[BirdBrain]

The key is downstream and no soap. I have seen an AMC caretaker stand in the middle of a stream and take a soapless "bath" with a bandana. He did it downstream of the designated water collection spot for the tentsite. That is what they mean by the water source. Don't do any of that stuff where you collect water. Do it downstream. Water has a hard time flowing upstream. ;). However, that stream continues down to somewhere. That is why you should filter your water. Here is the reality. We could go nuts about not soaking a shirt in water. However, every time we ford a stream, we are putting a far dirtier part of our body in the stream with no regard for LNT. Just use a little common sense and realize others are not using that same common sense. If you are going to use soap, do it with a bucket well away from the stream. Again, filter your water because someone else is not as careful as you are.

[Lnj]

Perfect! Thanks. I get it. I will filter every drop of water. This has answered my question completely.

[rickb]

Even if you have eaten most everything from your pot of oatmeal or cous course (for example) and scooped out any unplanned overage to put in your trash bag, there will always be little pieces left in your rinse water.

Some designated campsites have areas to filter that.

These wash areas may have a screen to pour your rinse water through so you can collect the bits of oatmeal or cous cous for disposal in your trash bag. Many places don't have such a sophisticated set up, and a lot of people don't bother to clean the screen, anyway.

Some people just do the leaf/sand/evergreen pot scrub, and then rinse and fling (not good LNT) but rather common, I think. I would like to hear from some of the true Angels that have never done that. Lone Wolf, maybe.

Others deposit food scraps in the privy (very not good-- don't even think about it).

Others drink the final particulate in their coffee course just as is. That's more common than you might think.

Common sense should prevail -- with extra care and consideration given to not leaving even small particulates in camping areas that will be used by others coming up the trail behind you.

My guess is that you will see it all.

[Lnj]

Quick ?... just a tad off topic... do you filter ALL water? Like for bathing too? I know drinking yes, and cooking if you will bring it to a boil, but what about hair washing and sponge/rag bathing?

[BirdBrain]

I filter the water I will consume only.

[Another Kevin]

If it's water you're willing to swim in, it's OK to bathe in. Sanitize your hands before eating and you'll be fine. If you're really worried, give your hands a final rinse with a little squirt of drinking water.

As far as particulates from dishwashing go, drinking them after the evening meal is pretty standard. I do freezer bag cooking, mostly, so any food scraps are already trash bagged for me, but if I wind up deciding to do actual cooking, the first round of cleaning the pot is to pour in a couple of ounces of water (ideally, hot), scrubbing the stuck bits away with a finger, and glugging them down.

It's not necessary to worry too much about scrupulous cleanliness of your cookpot, since it gets sterilized every time you use it.

Different land managers have different opinions regarding disposal of wash water. I hike in some places where they prefer that you sprinkle it over as wide an area as possible, and other areas where they prefer that you use a grey water sump (that is, pour your wash water down a cathole). I try to do whichever they prefer. If I'm in a 'sprinkle' area, I'm often cooking and eating somewhere else than where I plan to camp, and the 'fling' becomes the preferred method of disposal.

Don't put poo and wash water down the same hole. This means in turn that wash water and food scraps never go in the privy.

Lone Wolf doesn't care whether you feed the shelter mice, since he doesn't approve of the shelters to begin with. :)

[BirdBrain]

Lone Wolf doesn't care whether you feed the shelter mice, since he doesn't approve of the shelters to begin with. :)

He also does not filter water. He is the Chuck Norris of the AT. Germs fear him and run the other way as he approaches.

[Lnj]

AK, when you say wash water, do you mean body wash or dish wash?

[nsherry61]

. . . I will filter every drop of water. . .

Many people don't ever filter any water and are very careful to only drink water from sources that "appear" to be trustworthy. Generally, these people do fine and don't get sick. Occasionally, some of these people get sick.

Most people (I'm guessing on this one) filter or otherwise treat only the water they will be drinking directly. Most people (I'm guessing on this also) do not pre-filter or pre-treat their cooking water if they plan on boiling it. These people probably never get sick from water.

Some people are extremely risk averse and filter and/or chemically treat any and all water that is going to enter their body from all sources along the trail. These people also probably never get sick from water, but spend a lot of time worrying about it.

Most people (I'm guessing on this one again) really end up doing a combination of the above depending on the source. They may drink water from really safe sources like springs without treating but treat most water most surface water of the time. These people rarely if ever get sick. Most never will.

I grew up never treating any water. I still rarely filter or treat water. I have never been sick from water, to my knowledge. BUT, I also grew up in the Pacific Northwest where most water in the back-country is remote enough that there are no people or livestock upstream of you. Who knows, maybe I'm one of those people that is infected with giardia but never show any symptoms . . . not likely, but possible, I suppose.

And, since I now own water filters, and UV sterilizers, and chemicals, I do find I will carry less water with me (read lighter backpack) because I know that I can get safe water reliably by treating water from sources I wouldn't otherwise drink out of untreated.

[illabelle]

Quick ?... just a tad off topic... do you filter ALL water? Like for bathing too? I know drinking yes, and cooking if you will bring it to a boil, but what about hair washing and sponge/rag bathing?

Unnecessary to filter water for this stuff. By the way, you probably won't be washing your hair on the trail. Long-distance hikers stop in a town every few days to re-supply and clean up. While there, they use detergent, soap, and shampoo to get the grime off.

[BirdBrain]

As far as how to dispose of grey water, there are generally two concerns: contamination of water sources and erosion. Both can be mitigated by dumping said water on a boulder slowly at least 200' away from the water source.

[Slo-go'en]

I dispose of my gray water in the fire pit (if there is one). The charcoal filters the water and the next fire burns up any little food scraps, if the mice didn't get to them first.

I drink directly out of springs, so be extra careful around those. No washing of any sort in the spring. I mostly filter stream water, but it depends on the size, location (small and up near the top of the ridge okay, large and down near the valley, no). If I need to rise out a t-shirt of bandanna, I'll dip in the stream or pond, but wring it out on shore.

[Another Kevin]

AK, when you say wash water, do you mean body wash or dish wash?

Both, although bath water is a larger volume.

[Hoofit]

Quick ?... just a tad off topic... do you filter ALL water? Like for bathing too? I know drinking yes, and cooking if you will bring it to a boil, but what about hair washing and sponge/rag bathing?

Ha!
you're taking the p......ss now right ?
Really?

[BirdBrain]

On the surface, it seems logical that there places you would not need to filter your water. However, consider the visible proof that hikers don't care about how they treat their surroundings. Everyone knows that shelters can attract mice unless the tenants are very careful. Look under the shelter and you will find all kinds of trash. Watch hikers eat in shelters. Look at the fire pits and see all the junk that remains that won't burn. It is harder to see the effects of that attitude when you look at the water. It is there though. I do not trust any water source that hikers go near, especially at campsites. How they treat the rest of the campsite teaches me that my mistrust is justified.

[Pedaling Fool]

To start, I must say that I have already printed out and read the LNT guidelines. That's said, I am bit confused about the LNT about bathing, drinking, dirty water, etc. near water sources. Many threads have advised to soak a sweaty shirt in a creek or river to rinse out (no soap) or a hat to cool off, but then in the same sentence will say not to do it near a water source. I'm confused.

Is it bad to use a creek for swimming in? I have heard many people say swimming is ok. If so, then why is rinsing out a sweaty shirt or hat in the same "water source" bad? What's the difference? I do understand not bathing in a creek due to the soap contamination.

Also, after dinner is eaten (plates are eaten clean) we use a bucket or bowl of water to wash and rinse the plate off, do you save the rinse water in a separate bowl and if so, where do you pour it out? I am confused about what "dirty water" is and what to do with it.


Not all water sources are the same. A swift running creek/stream is far different than a slow running pool coming from a spring; however, much of the literature just doesn't separate the two very well. Creeks you come along the trail are fine for soaking things in; springs are not. Also when at a shelter with a creek, don't wash things in it upstream of the shelter, go a little downstream. There is no reason to have soap on the trail, but that's just my opinion. Washing with a wet rag is just fine.

I don't save dirty water/food debris, I dump away from a shelter if I'm near one. Depending on how much you have you can either simply disperse it or pour into the soil, the soil organisms will devour it. When I camp away from shelters I do dump it fairly close to my tent and I've never had any problems with animals.

Although, I did have a deer one time do some aggressive snorting at me one morning while I was in my tent, but I'm sure that had nothing to do with my dirty water; whatever caused that weird encounter will forever remain a mystery.:D

[Pedaling Fool]

P.S. WRT filtering, I don't filter anything, but that's just me....

[Lnj]

Unnecessary to filter water for this stuff. By the way, you probably won't be washing your hair on the trail. Long-distance hikers stop in a town every few days to re-supply and clean up. While there, they use detergent, soap, and shampoo to get the grime off.

For a woman with longer hair, how would you check for ticks if you didn't at least rinse it out?

[Lnj]

As far as how to dispose of grey water, there are generally two concerns: contamination of water sources and erosion. Both can be mitigated by dumping said water on a boulder slowly at least 200' away from the water source.

AHA!!! Sounds like a viable plan and no problem in Georgia.... rocks everywhere.

[Starchild]

The best way to decide what is LNT is not common sense but respect and caring for others, wildlife and Mother Earth. Don't pollute a drinking water source is respecting others. Most people would not want to drink out of a water source that someone cleaned their panties in nor would you like to drink out of a doggie water bowl or doggie bath water, that can be assumed, so move down stream for these things - be respectful even if they don't see you doing it (that's what respect is, doing the right thing even when you are not seen), adjust for the type of water source (pristine water spring, respect the Mother (earth) and be thankful for that and treat is a sacred drinking spot because it is), Fast moving stream with natural pools - expect people to swim here and you can too (and thank the Mother for it, as she provided it for you and us and made it obvious that it is for swimming and for her to clean up her stinky children), treat the latter carefully if using it as drinking water.

My LNT training class (to become a LTN trainer) recommended dispersing grey water (flinging the water out of the pot) over a wide area for individuals or couples as the acceptable balance between what is generally practical (meaning most will comply because it is not too hard) and the impact it causes, this means you can go further if you wish, but the LNT guidelines is to limit impact from this by dispersion. (though following recommendations for that site comes first)

For larger groups the recommendation is for screening grey water into a cathole and carrying out the filtered pieces.

Where a individual or couples becomes a 'large group' is not specified and somewhat open, but would tend towards acting as a group in respect to cooking, as opposed to all cooking individually or as couples.

[Lnj]

On the surface, it seems logical that there places you would not need to filter your water. However, consider the visible proof that hikers don't care about how they treat their surroundings. Everyone knows that shelters can attract mice unless the tenants are very careful. Look under the shelter and you will find all kinds of trash. Watch hikers eat in shelters. Look at the fire pits and see all the junk that remains that won't burn. It is harder to see the effects of that attitude when you look at the water. It is there though. I do not trust any water source that hikers go near, especially at campsites. How they treat the rest of the campsite teaches me that my mistrust is justified.

I tend to side with you on this one BirdBrain. I am in no way a germophobe, but having a stomach virus/disease hit me on the trail is probably way up high on my list of experiences closest to hell on earth, and if a few drops and 15 minutes will prevent that, I'm going to do it.

[Lnj]

I think I am liking the Ziploc freezer bag cooking solution that AK gave. No fuss, no muss. No dishes to wash, except my coffee cup in the morning. I use International House flavored stuff (No, I am not a REAL coffee drinker. I like a little coffee flavoring in my cream and sugar) so there won't be in dregs in the bottom of the cup. A quick rinse out will fix that. The food particle issue seems to be way too much work. I'll skip it and eat out of a Ziploc.;)

[BirdBrain]

I think I am liking the Ziploc freezer bag cooking solution that AK gave. No fuss, no muss. No dishes to wash, except my coffee cup in the morning. I use International House flavored stuff (No, I am not a REAL coffee drinker. I like a little coffee flavoring in my cream and sugar) so there won't be in dregs in the bottom of the cup. A quick rinse out will fix that. The food particle issue seems to be way too much work. I'll skip it and eat out of a Ziploc.;)

Most people use a quart size Ziploc. I find that the pint size suffices and makes access easier. Practice this at home. Here is my cozy.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/111056-Another-Cozy?highlight=cozy

Most people make it out of Reflectix. They might be right. I am a gram weenie and have had no issues with my lighter version.

[Another Kevin]

I think I am liking the Ziploc freezer bag cooking solution that AK gave. No fuss, no muss. No dishes to wash, except my coffee cup in the morning. I use International House flavored stuff (No, I am not a REAL coffee drinker. I like a little coffee flavoring in my cream and sugar) so there won't be in dregs in the bottom of the cup. A quick rinse out will fix that. The food particle issue seems to be way too much work. I'll skip it and eat out of a Ziploc.;)

Sometimes I do the hybrid method, particularly if I'm cooking for more than just myself. One thing that my hikers rave about is my dal bhaat tarkari. I start by boiling water, do the instant rice and home-dehydrated lentils in the freezer bag, and while they're rehydrating, whip up the curry in the cookpot. The basic recipe is over at http://www.trailcooking.com/one-pot-meals/mango-chicken-curry-lentils-rice/ but I do variations on the theme. I really like this on the trail, but I can do the chicken variation only when I have a hiking partner, since I've never been able to find pouch chicken in less than a 7 ounce packet, which is too much for me. One of these days I'll try doing it with freeze-dried chicken and see how that works out.

[JRinGeorgia]

An important consideration for backcountry bathing is your own chemical state -- if it's just all natural you then dive in, but if you're slathered in sunscreen or DEET you should rig up a way to rinse yourself off away from the water source before you take the plunge.