View Full Version : Stove advice?
I drag around an old coleman dual fuel stove (probably 1.5 ti 2 lbs unloaded) and am looking to shave some weight. This stove simmers wonderfully, is very stable and I have never, ever had a breakdown. Even in snow, ice and low temps.
I'm a little nervous about switching to alcohol stoves, and have heard mixed reviews about canister stoves, both of which seem to be the preference for most light and ultralighters today.
Any suggestions on current or newer white gas stoves (that weight less than 2 lbs?) I've had my eye on the MSR simmerlite, but have heard mixed reviews.
Also any suggestions or stories that may allay my aversion to alcohol or canister stoves, and suggestions for either?
Spanks,
B
SGT Rock
11-29-2005, 16:27
How about this: carry an alcohol stove you make yourself for nothing on a shake down hike and bring old trusty with you. Try to do everything you need of the alcohol for the hike and if it works, you will have gotten over your fear and learned any part of the process that you might need to overcome to be proficient.
No need to quote everything, you know what you said. Good advice from Rock on trying before switching. Now my 2 cents worth:
I am not the long distance hiker some here are but I've done a little walking in my time. The Simmerlite is (in my opinion) a very nice stove as well as much lighter than what you have now. Check this site: http://wings.interfree.it/index.html for a bunch of stove plans. Nothing to buy except maybe some JB Weld or flue tape. Some can be made in a half hour or so. Other plans found other places. Check Sgt. Rock's ION stove too. Denatured alcohol is cheap. A small plastic bottle, 4 oz. or so is all you need for a weekend. Try it, you'll probably stick with it.
i'll second/third rock's advice to keep what you have while getting comfortable with an alcohol stove. they're different, but cheap, quiet, and reliable. and i've been on the wings website... great stove ideas. i've built most of them, and ended up using sgt rock's ion stove.i started with a coleman one burner, the '442' model, i think it was, moved down to the simmerlite, and am very fond of rock's ion stove. if i go out alone, i use the ion. if i take my daughter, i usually take the simmerlite. very reliable, but i'd recommend the 22oz fuel bottle. with the smaller (11oz?) bottle, it seems like i have to pump it up way more often...good luck.
Skidsteer
11-29-2005, 19:16
Absolutely make your own alcohol stove. It is the best way to become profecient in their use IMO partly because you won't be able to resist testing your creation upon it's completion. This will give you valuable confidence before your "real world trial" By all means, take both stoves as Sgt. Rock suggested but if and when you discover that the little baby you made with your own hands is more than up to the task, you'll thoroughly enjoy the feeling of satisfaction and most probably leave the gas burner home next outing. Have fun with it!
Thanks.
Sgt Rock, nice website! I may be ordering an Ion in the near future. Do you find it truly superior to the V8 turbo?
I would feel comfortable switching to alcohol for solo's but if wife and/ or friends come along, may opt for the simmerlite or just continue to lug around ole' faithful multi-fuel when cooking for 2+.
Thanks everybody
b
hikerjohnd
11-29-2005, 21:28
I bought my Simmerlite to replace a Dragonfly (I like to cook when on short trips) and absolutley love it. I have had no luck with soda can stoves (maybe I'm too impatient) but I will say that Sgt Rock's ion stove is pretty sweet if all you are doing is heating water (I use mine off and on). My Simmerlite has about 350 miles on it without a hitch. I know that is not a thru-hike - but I wouldn't hesitate to take it to Maine tomorrow!
SGT Rock
11-29-2005, 23:11
Thanks.
Sgt Rock, nice website! I may be ordering an Ion in the near future. Do you find it truly superior to the V8 turbo?
I would feel comfortable switching to alcohol for solo's but if wife and/ or friends come along, may opt for the simmerlite or just continue to lug around ole' faithful multi-fuel when cooking for 2+.
Thanks everybody
b
I don't find it superior in all aspects, just weight and fuel efficiency. The Brasslite is more durable and faster.
littlelaurel59
11-29-2005, 23:28
I also have a Coleman Peak stove from years back. I had to replace the pump a few years back, but otherwise it has been trouble free.
I, too, began to look about at some of the newer and lighter white gas stoves. Then, I discovered homemade alcohol stoves: cheap to make, cheap to operate, nothing to go wrong (except step on it), and it works great. Being cheap (just ask my son), I love it.
My advice: make an alcohol stove for 1-2 person trips, keep using ol' reliable for larger groups, and save the money for something else.
SGT Rock
11-30-2005, 00:02
Well in my situation, I hike with a group of three often. Our solution is three lightweight pots and three alcohol stoves so we can all do our own thing and keep the weight down. I find making a large group meal on the trail a hassle anyway.
So IMHO, you could also get by with alcohol stoves for a group, just takes a different strategy.
Skidsteer
11-30-2005, 00:23
Well in my situation, I hike with a group of three often. Our solution is three lightweight pots and three alcohol stoves so we can all do our own thing and keep the weight down. I find making a large group meal on the trail a hassle anyway.
So IMHO, you could also get by with alcohol stoves for a group, just takes a different strategy.
The telling thought here is: you can bring three alcohol stoves, potstands, windscreens, light weight pots, etc. and still be close to or under the weight of schlepping a "group stove" solely for it's heating and simmering capabilities. And I agree it's a hassle to cook for a group; we usually all prefer eating at slightly different times post-hike anyway.:sun
justusryans
11-30-2005, 10:26
3 words, Sierra Zip Stove!!
sliderule
11-30-2005, 13:19
I you want to stick with a white gas stove, I highy recommend the Svea 123. It is much more fuel efficient than the Coleman and lighter and more compact. It does require priming, which I do with a small bottle of alcohol. The Svea is plentiful on Ebay at reasonable prices.
I have a 123 which I have been using since 1972. There have been several times that I have loaned it to fellow shelter occupants who managed to break one of the plastic parts on their MSR stoves.
The Svea 123 is not ultralight and it is a little noisy, but I don't think you will find a more reliable or fuel efficient stove.
I tried a canister stove on my last hike. It would not light at 22 degrees at 5800 feet MSL.
Kerosene
11-30-2005, 17:32
Hey, before you seriously consider a Svea, I've got my circa-1974 Optimus 8R stashed in the garage that I'll sell you!
Thanks again everybody. I think i'm going to play around with some homemade alcohol stoves first. The supercat looks relatively easy. Maybe get one of rock's ions.
Oh and bye the way, this site and forum are great. I'm still a few years away from being financially stable enough to thru-hike, and currently have to settle for 3-5 day sections, but when I am, I'll be much more prepared than I would have been. All of your advice and experience is much appreciated.
B
Lion King
11-30-2005, 19:30
Hey
Is it the old school Colemen Peak 1?
The kind you can get at WalMart for like 34$?
I use that kind everytime I go out.
Yeah, they are heavy, but they boil in ANY weather Fast.
They are reliable, they cook fast fast fast, and they never run out of fuel.
I love mine, and I have bought two or three over the years...people look at it and ask me if I am nuts...but you know what you like.
Jack Tarlin
11-30-2005, 20:09
Geez, King, people look at you and wonder if you're nuts regardless of what stove you're using! :D
And if you've really quit smokin', you're probably gonna get fatter than me in a hurry, meaning you can travel without a stove at all.....also, skip the food, too, it'll do you some good to skip a meal or three!
However, we will fatten you up a bit here in Hanover in a few days. Safe trip, see you soon.....
Dances with Mice
11-30-2005, 20:26
Hey, before you seriously consider a Svea, I've got my circa-1974 Optimus 8R stashed in the garage that I'll sell you!Dude! Seriously? I wouldn't pack with it anymore, but that's art! You should Brasso it and put it on display. PM me with a price if you really want to part with that heirloom.
Yep, it's the old school dual fuel - pretty much the same thing - Think I paid $34 from campmor years ago and starts like a champ. It starts in 10F and 90F, and simmers like a champ. Hasn't hindered my weight gain at all.
b
Hello again,
I too have a Coleman Duel Fuel that I used for years. I also tried building differrent designs of alcohol pop can stoves. I have yet to build one that I liked and that I thought was durable enough for me. Also found them to be kinda a pain to use (Think I may be in the minority here though). And you still have to buy (cheap though) and carry fuel.
Instead I built a Nomad wood burning stove. No fuel to carry, packs approx. 6" x 5" x 1/4" (Flat). Carry no fuel, spill no fuel, completely brainless to use. I could care less if it turns the outside of my stainless pot black. I love my wood stove and the Coleman has been demoted to car camping and tailgating.
A friend of mine has a MSR Whisper-Lite and an MSR Pocket Rocket. He hates the Whisper-Lite and never brings it so I have never seen it in action. But he really likes the Pocket Rocket. I've seen it in action and it will boil water like nothing I've ever seen before. It's a frickin torch! And only 3.5 oz plus fuel too boot. Definetly recomend one if you decide to go store bought.
Anyone else have an opinion on these 3 stoves?
Enjoy,
Chris
There are about 7 Optimus 8Rs on Ebay right now which can be had for around $20 each.
bbanker - I just purchased a Jetboil and have only used it a few times but I love it's ease of use. It's a good bit heavier than an alcohol setup at 24oz. but under your current 2 lb. mark. That 24oz. includes a full fuel tank which they say is good for boiling 12 liters of water. At 32ozs. of boiled water a day for cooking and coffee, a Jetboil fuel cannister will last you 12.5 days. And it boils fast! Boiling time is about 1 minute per cup of water and it's all-in-one design is pretty darn cool. According the their website, the built-in wind screen/heat shield gives a fuel efficiency rating of about 80% when most stoves get 40%. So, short of a hurricane, you will have hot water fast. There is also a french press accessory for coffee lovers which weighs another 1.2 ozs and works fantastic!
Alcohol stoves work great for the minimalist, but in my experience with them they do require a lot of experimentation. Be prepared to need a lot more alcohol than some figures you hear, especially so in cold or windy conditions or god-forbid, both. I'm sure you can get by with not as much alcohol as I find myself using but the learning curve just isn't worth it to me. I want my hot water fast with no fuss on those early cold mornings. Not messing with warming an aluminum stove with my hands, pouring alcohol and then waiting about 8 minutes for my water. And that's if the weather is agreeable.
With the Jetboil, turn the gas knob, push start the piezo electric igniter, wait 1-2 minutes for water to boil, turn off the gas, detach the built in insulated cooking cup containing your now hot water, throw in your coffee grounds, push the french press down to filter and push the grounds to the bottom, attach lid with built in sipping slit and you're drinking great hot coffee in under 3 minutes in any weather. Now you can open your eyes and start thinking about breakfast.
Anyway, if you're wanting to go lighter than 2 lbs. and want to maintain that any-weather idiot proof reliability, check out the www.jetboil.com. Just my .02
Skidsteer
11-30-2005, 21:53
Anyway, if you're wanting to go lighter than 2 lbs. and want to maintain that any-weather idiot proof reliability, check out the www.jetboil.com (http://www.jetboil.com). Just my .02[/quote]
It is indeed a nifty design but when all's said and done it's still a canister stove. Have you found that it still performs well at low temps and high altitudes? I'm genuinely curious and don't intend to flame you.
Cheers
Anyway, if you're wanting to go lighter than 2 lbs. and want to maintain that any-weather idiot proof reliability, check out the www.jetboil.com (http://www.jetboil.com). Just my .02
It is indeed a nifty design but when all's said and done it's still a canister stove. Have you found that it still performs well at low temps and high altitudes? I'm genuinely curious and don't intend to flame you.
Cheers
Similar to a canister stove yes, but not at 80% fuel efficiency. 80%!
Admittedly i have limited experience with it, but one time using it and you're a pro. No learning curve to speak of really. My limited use is on one 2 night trip in Big South Fork on the TN/KY border last week so no real big altitudes or extreme temps but then again, I don't go hiking in either of these conditions. Mostly because they don't exist in TN.
However, if you read some of the many testimonials on their website you'll read about users having great results at 20,000'.
Question for all the more-experienced alcohol stove users. How much alcohol would it take to boil 12 liters of water in real world conditions? What would that setup weigh? (Forget that you don't need to carry that much on the AT, I just want to compare apples to apples since one cannot carry less than that amount of fuel with the Jetboil.)
SGT Rock
11-30-2005, 22:52
12 liters of water would require (depending on the stove) 12 to 24 ounces of fuel (liquid ounces) @ 0.82 ounces per fluid ounce - so a mass of 9.84 to 19.68 ounces of fuel. Add to that a soda bottle for fuel (1.0 ounces) and the stove, stand, and windscreen weight (1.0 to 3.0 ounces) and you would have a starting weight of between 11.84 ounces to 23.68 ounces. This is just stove, fuel, and container. This doesn't include the pot or cozy.
To make this system similar to a Jetboil in function, you would also need to add the pot (4.01 ounces for my .9L) and a cozy (1.0 ounces). So you could have a base start weight of 16.85 ounces to 28.58 ounces.
The Jet Boil would have a start weight of about 22.2 ounces with all the same accoutrement's included in the package.
Here is part of the weight difference. As you go along your hike, you will consume fuel. An alcohol stove user at the heavy end will consume most of their weight between re-supply points, while the JetBoil will onle consume about 4 ounce total fuel weight. So about half way through that 12 liters, the alcohol stove person will only have about 18.74 ounces of stove stuff, wile the JetBoil user will still be carrying about 20.64 ounces. At the end of the hike, the JetBoil hiker is still carrying about 19.1 ounces while the alcohol user (on the heavy end) is only carrying 9.01 ounces.
Now look at how long between re-supply points you go - about 4-5 days. You really only need to carry fuel for 4-5 liters. As an alcohol user this would be about 6 to 12 ounces. If you only carry what you need, your start weight and average carry weight will be even lower. My fuel bottle for this length of time is an 8.5 ounce bottle and I usually have about 1/3 of the bottle left with two hot meals a day. My start weight for all that stuff is only 12.68 ounces and my average weight will be 9.2 ounces.
Yeah, that's my concern. I'd go for a pocket rocket or jetboil, but i have the feeling I would end up with a bunch of partly used expensive canisters, or on a trail in november with stove that won't fire. I figure I can go for the simmerlite, and if pot stability is a problem, add my own clothshanger stabilizer for an extra ounce.
As is if I go for more than 3 or 4 days, i exhaust the fuel capacity of my current Coleman with minimal cooking, and need to pack an extra bottle anyway.
The way I see it now I might as well go ahead and have a 22 or 32 oz bottle, a simmerlite and a modified external pot stabilizer if needed.
I'm definately open to and like alcohol stove idea, but need to experiment for a while and do some dry runs.
SGT Rock
11-30-2005, 23:15
I've got a Simmerlite as well. I would only use it in winter hiking situations, and I have an 11 ounce bottle for it. A Simmerlite would only need about 0.3 to 0.4 ounces in mass for a pint of water, so 0.6-0.8 ounces a day. If you take an 11 ounce bottle, that should last you about 2 weeks.
For anything else, alcohol or Esbit. Alcohol is cheap, light, and effective. All you need to do is use one a few times and you will realize there is absolutly nothing to fear from it.
Skidsteer
11-30-2005, 23:24
As is if I go for more than 3 or 4 days, i exhaust the fuel capacity of my current Coleman with minimal cooking, and need to pack an extra bottle anyway.
The way I see it now I might as well go ahead and have a 22 or 32 oz bottle, a simmerlite and a modified external pot stabilizer if needed.
I'm definately open to and like alcohol stove idea, but need to experiment for a while and do some dry runs.
Regardless of the stove you carry, learning the skill of frugal fuel use is invaluable. If your cooking system revolves around getting water to a boil ONLY, and not simmering,i.e. using another container, baggie, etc. to cook your food, your stove will automatically be more effecient, in a sense.
Thanks for the math Rock. Jetboil is definitely not lighter on short trips between towns, but my kitchen is the one thing i don't like to skimp on. I won't lie, part of my reason to switching was the precision which was required with an alcohol stove and I just never got the hang of it.
You know how hammockers always say a little extra weight in the winter is worth the great sleep? I feel the same way about an extra ~10 ozs. for my 2-3 minute coffee or dinner (plus rehydrating time) after i hit camp exhausted and starving.
I like the idea of having the ability to zero on the trail if I find a good spot by accident and not worrying about having just enough alcohol. Your numbers don't lie, but you'd be hating me in the morning when I'm drinking coffee before your water was even looking like boiling. :p
My stove is my comfort item i guess.
SGT Rock
11-30-2005, 23:36
Well something to consider too is wood fire cooking as a method to supplement your fuel. I like to have fires when they make sense based on the campsite. When I do, I find it relaxing to just set a few rocks in the right place within the fire area to form a tripod for my pot. I will just cook directly on the fire - time be damned. This saves fuel, but also is fun - at least to me. So if you are taking a backcountry zero, you could have a good fire for cooking since you have lots of time. Even with my fuel plan I can take a zero, add hot lunches, and make extra coffee in the morning and still have plenty.
But again, your comfort level and 'druthers are part of what make the trip fun. If you are the sort of hiker that wants meals done fast, then a canister or gas is a good way to go.
If I were going to go to something like that, here is what I would get and do:
Pot: Evernew Ti 4.01 ounces
Cozy: Dixicritter's Pot Cozy 1.0 ounces
Lighter: Scripto 0.6 ounces
Canister: Any 4.0 once canister ~ 8.0 ounces
Stove: Coleman Exponent F1 ultralight - 2.7 ounces.
Total weight- 16.31 ounces start weight. This would make your weight average ~ 14.4.
I would use it for breakfast and dinners where I didn't have a fire. A 4.0 ouce canister with this stove should last about 10+ liters of water if I remember correctly.
The Old Fhart
12-01-2005, 00:09
Bjorkin-"There are about 7 Optimus 8Rs on Ebay right now which can be had for around $20 each." Ah, but if you collect stoves and want a pristine or new 8R, that could easily run you 5-10 times that. I even picked up a brand new, in the box and quite rare, R8, which is a Russian (military?) copy of the 8R on ebay.
sliderule
12-01-2005, 00:38
There are about 7 Optimus 8Rs on Ebay right now which can be had for around $20 each.
Don't bet on it. The auction is not over until it's over.
Maybe so. Point was to let Dances With Mice know the 8R is not so rare that they can't be found on eBay if Kerosene didn't want to part with his. I'll leave the betting to you. :)
sliderule
12-01-2005, 10:33
I would recommnend the Svea 123 over the Optimus 8R. Performance wise, they are almost identical. However, the 8R is heavier due to its steel case. And it's larger in terms of pack volume. The pot supports on the 8R are "slick" and too far apart for small cooking vessels such as a Sierra cup. And if you use a large cooking pot, it overhangs the fuel tank and causes it to overheat and pop the pressue relief valve in the fuel cap (which can make things quite exciting.)
The Optimus 99 is essentially an 8R with an aluminum case instead of a steel one. It is lighter and the case lid doubles as a cook pot. I would chose the 99 over the 8R (but after the Svea) for backpacking, where weight is an issue.