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dabeachman
09-17-2015, 11:20
I am trying to find a solo tent for the trail. I will most likely be starting in January so don't expect to see too many at first. So I see a lot of people set up tents in shelters when the weather is miserable and they are not putting anyone else out. How important is a freestanding tent in that situation?

Gambit McCrae
09-17-2015, 11:35
There is no reason to set up a shelter, inside of a shelter. Either tent, or shelter. You never know who has had a miserable hike for the day and arrives after dark to your tent setup in what could have been their empty spot. A lot of shelters have lofts, half height walls on the opening side, plenty of protection 99% of the time. At the most I would take my fly and lay it over myself within my personal space in the shelter. But if your going to set up your tent, what extra protection are you receiving from the shelter that your tent isn't providing?

RED-DOG
09-17-2015, 11:38
I agree NO Tents in shelters.

Trailweaver
09-17-2015, 12:21
If your tent doesn't offer enough protection for you, then you have the wrong tent. Either shelter or tent - not both. Or buy a better sleeping bag.

George
09-17-2015, 12:44
lots of responses - nothing constructive

would have to say they have not had much midwinter shelter use - blowing snow etc does make just a sleeping bag less than ideal

a much overlooked option is the bivy sack - reasonable weights, takes up no extra room, keeps the sleep system together, adds warmth, and can be used outside the shelters

example: http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/catalog/product/view/id/41093/s/helium-bivy/category/2158/

dominating space in a shelter is never nice, even just being spread out in a sparsely used shelter, be ready to consolidate for later arrivals

Sarcasm the elf
09-17-2015, 12:46
Yes, your tent needs to be more or less freestanding in order to set it up in a shelter, shelter's usuallydon't have any good anchorpoints to attach to.

The only time I put up a tent inside a shelter is when I'm hiking a less used section of trail, it's the dead of winter and I don't feel like dealing with packing down snow to make a tent site. Typically these shelters have had no log book entries for several weeks prior to my arrival and the snow is completely undisturbed by footprints, so it's a safe bet that I won't be bothering anyone. I wouldn't recommend trying this on any popular stretches of trail.

In reality there's not much advantage to putting up a tent inside the shelter besides not having to deal with the snowpack. I'm fairly sure that the ground is actually warmer since it doesn't have the constant draft underneath that the shelter's floorboards do.

Gambit McCrae
09-17-2015, 12:50
lots of responses - nothing constructive

would have to say they have not had much midwinter shelter use - blowing snow etc does make just a sleeping bag less than ideal

a much overlooked option is the bivy sack - reasonable weights, takes up no extra room, keeps the sleep system together, adds warmth, and can be used outside the shelters

example: http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/catalog/product/view/id/41093/s/helium-bivy/category/2158/

dominating space in a shelter is never nice, even just being spread out in a sparsely used shelter, be ready to consolidate for later arrivals

How is none of it constructive? They asked about tents in shelters, OP said nothing about different shelter options as you suggested. They asked about does and don'ts of setting up tents in the shelters. If you feel the need to protect yourself with your tent, do it in a tenting area.

your right I don't have any experience with snow drifts in shelters because I sleep in my Dern tent.

dabeachman
09-17-2015, 12:59
I did not realize it was such a faux pas. I read several books in the last few years and it seemed frequent they would tent in the shelter. I figured I would get the added warmth from he 4th side the tent provides plus critter protection. I plan to use either my 15deg or 0deg bag with a liner and I know what conditions they can keep me warm, but the tent always keeps in a bit more heat.

dabeachman
09-17-2015, 13:03
Thanks, well put and helpful.

Gambit McCrae
09-17-2015, 13:04
I would say just like anything else; Be mindful of others, the possibility of others and give it a reality check on the spot. In what little experience I have gained in the 800 miles of the AT I have done (Most people on here have a lifetime of experience), cold is cold, 14 degrees is 14 degrees :) and the space taken up by my tent isn't going to make me toasty warm.

Now if you are looking to retain warmth, tyvek with some thumb taks in an end spot of the shelter would probably do a darn good job at both protection, cost, not impeding on others space and weight savings

dabeachman
09-17-2015, 13:04
Yes, your tent needs to be more or less freestanding in order to set it up in a shelter, shelter's usuallydon't have any good anchorpoints to attach to.

The only time I put up a tent inside a shelter is when I'm hiking a less used section of trail, it's the dead of winter and I don't feel like dealing with packing down snow to make a tent site. Typically these shelters have had no log book entries for several weeks prior to my arrival and the snow is completely undisturbed by footprints, so it's a safe bet that I won't be bothering anyone. I wouldn't recommend trying this on any popular stretches of trail.

In reality there's not much advantage to putting up a tent inside the shelter besides not having to deal with the snowpack. I'm fairly sure that the ground is actually warmer since it doesn't have the constant draft underneath that the shelter's floorboards do.



This was helpful.

Another Kevin
09-17-2015, 13:31
YIn reality there's not much advantage to putting up a tent inside the shelter besides not having to deal with the snowpack. I'm fairly sure that the ground is actually warmer since it doesn't have the constant draft underneath that the shelter's floorboards do.

In high summer, I see people tenting in shelters to get some bug protection. I roll my eyes at that, and go pitch my tent somewhere else where I can catch a breeze. Tenting in a shelter looks brutally hot to me.

And Elf is right about the ground being warmer. I can recall one spring weekend when my daughter and I had stopped off at a shelter near the end of a hiking day to get out of the sleet for a bit and have a cup of tea. While we were sitting there, we said to two other parties, "Hey, if you want the lean-to, you can have it! We're just stopped for a break." The answer was, "No thanks! My tent's warmer!" It snowed in the night. In the morning, we could tell from the tracks that five or six of the tent sites nearby were occupied. Nobody stayed at the lean-to.

Tenting in a shelter is unlawful in New York (https://govt.westlaw.com/nycrr/Document/I21ee87e5c22211ddb7c8fb397c5bd26b?viewType=FullTex t&originationContext=documenttoc&transitionType=CategoryPageItem&contextData=%28sc.Default%29).

Venchka
09-17-2015, 13:39
Got an R-5-6-7+ sleeping pad of some sort? If not, get one.
I could see an advantage to using the shelter as a wind block for my tent set up in the lee of the shelter. Maybe add a nice snow wall to add additional wind protection. A few inches of snow under your tent is definitely warmer than a drafty raised floor.
What critters are you worried about invading your tent? You told us about your bags, how storm worthy is your tent?
In January I doubt that you can always count on finding a shelter at the right time of day anyway.
Be prepared. Be warm. Be safe.

Wayne

tdoczi
09-17-2015, 13:43
i still dont get why anyone would want to tent inside a shelter as opposed to out of the shelter. all the justifications offered so far explain why the tent in the shelter is better than being in the shelter without the tent, while ignoring the question of why not just set the tent up outside the shelter?

only time i see this being rational is in the few very limited cases where tenting near a shelter is not permitted. ive more than once happened upon a single tent occupying an entire shelter (albeit one of the smaller shelters) and its one of those things i just stare at in disbelief and wonder how anyone could have possibly decided that was ok.

rocketsocks
09-17-2015, 14:03
Many moons ago in a land far far away, once I put my tent (free standing) in a shelter, not rainy tent ti pack up in the morning, no mices, no bugs, no machete wielding killers can get to me with the first shot. Don't know that I'd do that again.

MuddyWaters
09-17-2015, 15:26
Lots of people set up tents without fly.in shelter to keep away mice,

tdoczi
09-17-2015, 15:48
Lots of people set up tents without fly.in shelter to keep away mice,

and what is the advantage of doing this in the shelter as opposed to out of the shelter?? are you not "supposed" to set up your tent without the fly out of the shelter? i do it all the time.

MuddyWaters
09-17-2015, 16:01
and what is the advantage of doing this in the shelter as opposed: to out of the shelter?? are you not "supposed" to set up your tent without the fly out of the shelter? i do it all the time.

Im sure if you think about it you can come up with reasons. Out of rain for one.
I saw 4 set up at one time in overmountain shelter.

Most time if its a small shelter they will take it down or ask if others mind.

I dont sleep in shelters normally, couldnt care less what the rodent-fearing inhabitants do. First come first served as well. If someone doesnt like it, go find another trail.

Sarcasm the elf
09-17-2015, 16:03
and what is the advantage of doing this in the shelter as opposed to out of the shelter?? are you not "supposed" to set up your tent without the fly out of the shelter? i do it all the time.

The most common reason that people do it is that shelters are dryer, so if it's raining you can get the bug protection of a tent while using the shelter to keep the tent dry.

As I said in my comment above, I would never do this in 3 season conditions due to the likelyhood of other hikers coming by who want to use the shelter.

tdoczi
09-17-2015, 16:07
The most common reason that people do it is that shelters are dryer, so if it's raining you can get the bug protection of a tent while using the shelter to keep the tent dry.

As I said in my comment above, I would never do this in 3 season conditions due to the likelyhood of other hikers coming by who want to use the shelter.


makes i suppose at least a modest amount of sense, but ive seen people do it not in the rain. further, in the rain is when its most inconsiderate to go hogging the shelter, arguably.

Sarcasm the elf
09-17-2015, 16:10
makes i suppose at least a modest amount of sense, but ive seen people do it not in the rain. further, in the rain is when its most inconsiderate to go hogging the shelter, arguably.

Agreed. Like I said, I only do so during the dead of winter at lesser used sites. Even then I still feel a twinge of guilt about it.

In the off chance anyone came by I would immediately offer to move the tent out (before they had to ask me).

BirdBrain
09-17-2015, 16:19
I always sleep in my tent. I have set it up in a shelter a couple of times. I did so when no one else was around. The shelter did not complain. If you are going to do so, use a free standing tent. Certainly don't use screws as a way to secure your tent. Don't damage the floor of the shelter.

squeezebox
09-17-2015, 16:20
Do some 3 season tents collapse under snow load? So maybe getting out of a heavy snow might be what someone might be thinking.

BillyGr
09-17-2015, 17:25
Do some 3 season tents collapse under snow load? So maybe getting out of a heavy snow might be what someone might be thinking.

That would seem to be one reason for it (if a lot of snow was predicted). The other that comes to mind would be strong winds (using the tent for wind block/warmth with the lean-to providing some extra protection from falling branches).

Harrison Bergeron
09-17-2015, 17:27
I am trying to find a solo tent for the trail. I will most likely be starting in January so don't expect to see too many at first. So I see a lot of people set up tents in shelters when the weather is miserable and they are not putting anyone else out. How important is a freestanding tent in that situation?

A solo tent that is acceptable to set up inside a shelter is called a "bivy".

Tractor
09-17-2015, 17:35
I've seen a few narrow footprint freestanding tents in a few shelters. They take up no more space than a bedroll/sleeping pad. No bitching. No lost space(s). Bug nets. There are tents and there are TENTS.

MuddyWaters
09-17-2015, 19:10
Ive seen 3 P in shelters.
But honestly, its first come, first served.
Even if its inconsiderate, its not prohibited.
If it bothers anyone, get over it.
Thats how some HYOH, roll with it.

JustaTouron
09-17-2015, 19:17
I have never set up a tent in a shelter, but I have strung up a tarp to create a fourth wall to keep wind, snow, rain

Sent from my SM-T110 using Tapatalk

Another Kevin
09-17-2015, 19:32
Even if its inconsiderate, its not prohibited.


As I mentioned earlier, in New York it is indeed prohibited (https://govt.westlaw.com/nycrr/Document/I21ee87e5c22211ddb7c8fb397c5bd26b?viewType=FullTex t&originationContext=documenttoc&transitionType=CategoryPageItem&contextData=%28sc.Default%29&bhcp=1).

JumpMaster Blaster
09-17-2015, 21:09
I don't see the problem unless you are preventing other hikers from using said shelter. I had a 1P set up in Roan High Knob to keep out of the howling wind and rain, AND to keep the mice from doing calisthenics on my sleeping bag. The couple that slept upstairs set up their 2P. No one else came. What unwritten rule did we break?

Now, if 3-4 more people came, I make sure they had room, and then I would have gone outside anyway. You can't say it inconveniences someone if no one's there to be inconvenienced.

Bati
09-17-2015, 21:10
That would seem to be one reason for it (if a lot of snow was predicted). The other that comes to mind would be strong winds (using the tent for wind block/warmth with the lean-to providing some extra protection from falling branches).

Another reason would be because sustained winds make it impossible to set up a 3-season tent outside of the shelter, such as in a blizzard.
If you do stay in a shelter during or soon after a bad storm and visibility permits, be sure to look for widowmakers that could hit the shelter. Remember that Rufus Morgan shelter was reduced to an 18 inch high shelter a few days after the storm of the century in 1993.

The good news is you'll probably never encounter a storm bad enough that it makes sense to set up in a shelter in the South. And if you do, there won't be any fighting, etc. over shelter space- when storms are truly bad, everyone out there know that their lives depend on getting along, and no one wants to wake up and discover someone else died during the night.
Under more normal, plain old cold and wet circumstances, a bivy is a great way to add some extra warmth in a shelter and keep the blowing snow and rain off your bag. Plan on a goretex bivy adding at least 10 degrees F of warmth with the top down. If you're squeezed onto the edge of the shelter or the wind blows snow all the way to the back wall, then zipping up all the way can add even more warmth. I can recall some cold mornings where the folks who were warmest and least motivated to start hiking right away to warm up were in bivies, in a shelter.

MuddyWaters
09-17-2015, 21:29
As I mentioned earlier, in New York it is indeed prohibited (https://govt.westlaw.com/nycrr/Document/I21ee87e5c22211ddb7c8fb397c5bd26b?viewType=FullTex t&originationContext=documenttoc&transitionType=CategoryPageItem&contextData=%28sc.Default%29&bhcp=1).

On state lands. No authority on nps administered land, or private like the Nature Conservancy.
Arent the only ones on state land the 3 in Bear/Harriman state park?

I dont know whats sadder , that people do it, or that someone felt they had to write a rule against it. My solo inner that is 24" wide could be construed as a "tent" by some.

Dope smoking is illegal in most places too. You know how well that works out.

egilbe
09-17-2015, 21:50
Only time I ever set my tent up in a shelter was in Baxter state park. Happy I did since I spent the night weathering hurricane Arthur. Good times.

Marta
09-17-2015, 22:08
I've set up my tent in shelters a number of times. Did anyone know? No, because I was the only one there. Hello, hiking on the AT during hunting season and in the winter.

I was using a Tarptent Virga I, which can be shaped into a sort of bivy for added protection from the wind and blowing snow. I have also strung it across the front of shelters during severe rainstorms to keep some of the water out.

Yes, it is the height of jerkiness to occupy more than one sleeping space if anyone else shows up. But if they don't, it's all yours.

Extra cord can be helpful when rigging up rain and snow protection. Needless to say, there's never a good enough reason to damage the shelter by driving nails in it, or whatever.

A freestanding tent is the shape it is. It's much harder to make it smaller, or use it as a tarp to block rain and snow. Both of those things are easier with a non-freestanding tent.

It is also quite true that shelters are, in general, colder than tenting on the ground, especially if you are clever about picking a protected location with good leaf litter on the ground.

Being considerate of others is the only rule that really makes sense to me.

Ktaadn
09-18-2015, 13:12
I've setup my tent IN a shelter many times. Only once was there someone else(other than my hiking partner) staying in the shelter and he said he had no problem with it. Advantages of doing this include but are not limited to, it's dry, it's level, it's smooth, I don't need to put shoes on to walk around it, I'm out of the rain/snow/hail/wind/falling branches, I have easy access to hooks and shelves to hang gear. Do I need to go on?

Yes, I would recommend a free-standing tent.

Gambit McCrae
09-18-2015, 13:14
I've setup my tent IN a shelter many times. Only once was there someone else(other than my hiking partner) staying in the shelter and he said he had no problem with it. Advantages of doing this include but are not limited to, it's dry, it's level, it's smooth, I don't need to put shoes on to walk around it, I'm out of the rain/snow/hail/wind/falling branches, I have easy access to hooks and shelves to hang gear. Do I need to go on?

Yes, I would recommend a free-standing tent.

Everything you mentioned are the perks of staying in a shelter, you could have omitted "setting up a tent in the shelter", and your statement would have still made sense lol

BirdBrain
09-18-2015, 13:34
Everything you mentioned are the perks of staying in a shelter, you could have omitted "setting up a tent in the shelter", and your statement would have still made sense lol

Not advocating setting tents up in shelters. I have done it a couple times... when I was alone. I stay away from shelters more often than not. However, an advantage of a tent over sleeping outside a tent is that critters have a harder time running across your face if you are in a tent. That would be especially important if you choose to set up a tent in a rodent shed. I don't like sleeping in shelters. However, if I do and if no one is around, I am setting up my tent to keep the mice off me.

Ktaadn
09-18-2015, 13:51
Everything you mentioned are the perks of staying in a shelter, you could have omitted "setting up a tent in the shelter", and your statement would have still made sense lol

So I needed to add that 'all of the normal advantages of using a tent also apply' for you to get it?

Gambit McCrae
09-18-2015, 13:53
I sleep in my tent, on top of my bed, in my home..everynight. Keeps dust off of me

Berserker
09-18-2015, 14:31
I am trying to find a solo tent for the trail. I will most likely be starting in January so don't expect to see too many at first. So I see a lot of people set up tents in shelters when the weather is miserable and they are not putting anyone else out. How important is a freestanding tent in that situation?
Personally, if I think I might stay in a shelter I'll carry a bivy (I have a lightweight Mountain Laurel Designs Soul bivy for that purpose). I wouldn't base any part of a tent selection on setting it up inside a shelter. Should you happen upon an empty shelter, which is not uncommon during the off season, you can likely rig up a non-freestanding tent in it as long as you have some extra guy line.

On a side tangent/soapbox note, setting up a tent in a shelter just doesn't make a lot of sense in my opinion. If you are the only person there, then I guess have at it and do whatever you want. I've seen people setting up tents in shelters in the middle of the day when other people were still rolling in, and it was clear it wasn't going to rain. That's just not cool. Sure there's not a regulation that says you can't do it (except for apparently in NY per other posters), but come on...really? Why not just get off trail and stay in a hotel then? I have to agree with the venerable Lone Wolf on this one where he's stated many times that the shelters should all be torn down. I'd be in favor of doing that and putting in some more tent pads. Alright side tangent/soapbox over...resume regular Whiteblaze chatter.

BirdBrain
09-18-2015, 16:01
I scratch my head at some of the stuff posted here. It would not break my heart if every shelter was torn down. I don't need them. However, why does anyone care what someone else does with their tent? If it takes up room that others need, I get the complaint. Why is someone else's method criticized? If it does damage, I get that. A tent in a shelter is a bit odd. But who is it hurting if the space is there? I think it is weird to sleep outside a tent. You won't see me making sarcastic statements about that choice. It is just a choice. There are tons of right ways to do things. The OP is sseeking to not do the wrong thing. Just because suggestions don't line up perfectly with the way someone else does it, that does not make it stupid.

But ya'. Do it if you want, if it is legal where you are. Don't do it at the expense of others. Don't use screws to hold it down. A free standing tent works best and has a footprint not much larger than the sleeping bag. Ignore people that have input that just want to say their way is great and your way is stupid. HYOH. Have fun.

BirdBrain
09-18-2015, 16:01
Double post disease.

Another Kevin
09-18-2015, 16:16
On state lands. No authority on nps administered land, or private like the Nature Conservancy.
Arent the only ones on state land the 3 in Bear/Harriman state park?

I dont know whats sadder , that people do it, or that someone felt they had to write a rule against it. My solo inner that is 24" wide could be construed as a "tent" by some.

Dope smoking is illegal in most places too. You know how well that works out.

That people do it - is a headscratcher. The rules tend to get written once there's a problem. The Catskills and Adirondacks have had problems in the past. I was at a trailhead in the Catskills once when there was a whole bevy of rangers, state police, and sheriff's deputies arresting a bunch of squatters. The squatters didn't even look like desperate people. They just seemed to think it would be cool to set up a private hunting camp on state land. The ranger was telling me that they'd built their own shelter (with a wood stove, no less) and just moved in for the season. Incredible that they thought they'd get away with it.

Morgan Stewart is on state land (Depot Hill Multiple Use Area), if memory serves. You're right that Wildcat and Telephone Pioneers are Federal. If I recall correctly, RPH and Wiley have easements on private land, but there may have been a Federal purchase since I last checked. Private land, of course, follows the landowner's preferences. Plus, "don't be an idiot." We've lost access to at least one shelter in the Helderbergs because the landowner on the approach trail revoked an easement. The shelter itself is on state land, but now there's no trail that gets there.

I wouldn't call your solo bivy a tent unless I'm having an extraordinarily bad day. (And for me, no day on the trail is an extraordinarily bad day, so you needn't worry on my account.)

Some people care about staying legal. (Including the moderators on this site, so I don't discuss safety meetings on WB.)

There are dozens and dozens of shelters on other trails in NY, and some of the people on this site use them.

Oh... another caveat. In the Adirondack and Catskill Parks, the DEC interprets the "camp at least 150 feet from trail or water" rule as applying to shelters. The inside of the shelter is a designated camping location. The outside is not. Most of the heavily used shelters have designated tent areas nearby, but otherwise you have to be 150 feet away from both the shelter and the trail. I know people who've gotten tickets for that, but they're the sort of hikers who get tickets instead of warnings because they give the ranger a busting bad time. This rule applies just to DEC land, so the only A-T shelter that it might affect is Morgan Stewart. Sterling Forest-Harriman-Bear Mountain is OPRHP (Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation), completely different agency with its own interpretation of the rules.

tdoczi
09-18-2015, 17:56
You never know who has had a miserable hike for the day and arrives after dark to your tent setup in what could have been their empty spot.

precisely the thing all the "its not bothering anyone" people dont seem to get. as for first come, first serve does that mean i can show up at a shelter first and tell everyone the whole thing is mine and no one else can stay? i mean it wouldnt be illegal, right? i've seen smaller that the shelter can hold groups of people do that as well.

Feral Bill
09-18-2015, 18:32
If you want protection form wind and blowing snow, a tarp across the front of a shelter is lighter and simpler than a tent. If bugs are the problem (not the OPs issue) a bug net is also lighter and simpler. Together they are all the shelter you are likely to need.

BirdBrain
09-18-2015, 19:32
precisely the thing all the "its not bothering anyone" people dont seem to get. as for first come, first serve does that mean i can show up at a shelter first and tell everyone the whole thing is mine and no one else can stay? i mean it wouldnt be illegal, right? i've seen smaller that the shelter can hold groups of people do that as well.

I see a straw man in the room. I am yet to encounter anyone that would suggest there is no more room in the inn. Maybe it happens. Maybe I have been lucky. I have seen people invite more in when there seems to be no room. Made me glad I was outside in a tent. Furthermore, I am yet to see anyone suggest a tent should take precedence over a sleeping bag in a shelter. I have seen people suggest it might be acceptable if the place was empty. As to people arriving late and having no spot, I would suggest that maybe they should have lugged a tent. Do not bend that to mean that a tent is acceptable in a crowded shelter. It is not. However, people hiking in late with no portable shelter have a bad plan. Again, I would like to see the post where someone suggests that having a tent in a crowded shelter in okay. If there is plenty of room and it I legal, I don't get the gripe. I also don't see the straw man. Perhaps someone can point him out and show me where someone thinks it is okay for a tent to take precedence over a sleeping bag in a shelter.

tdoczi
09-18-2015, 20:02
I see a straw man in the room. I am yet to encounter anyone that would suggest there is no more room in the inn. Maybe it happens. Maybe I have been lucky. I have seen people invite more in when there seems to be no room. Made me glad I was outside in a tent. Furthermore, I am yet to see anyone suggest a tent should take precedence over a sleeping bag in a shelter. I have seen people suggest it might be acceptable if the place was empty. As to people arriving late and having no spot, I would suggest that maybe they should have lugged a tent. Do not bend that to mean that a tent is acceptable in a crowded shelter. It is not. However, people hiking in late with no portable shelter have a bad plan. Again, I would like to see the post where someone suggests that having a tent in a crowded shelter in okay. If there is plenty of room and it I legal, I don't get the gripe. I also don't see the straw man. Perhaps someone can point him out and show me where someone thinks it is okay for a tent to take precedence over a sleeping bag in a shelter.


who said anything about someone not having a tent?

my point is this- an empty shelter can suddenly turn crowded unexpectedly and the people who show up later shouldnt have to ask someone to take their tent down. truthfully most people probably wouldnt ask.

BirdBrain
09-18-2015, 20:10
who said anything about someone not having a tent?

my point is this- an empty shelter can suddenly turn crowded unexpectedly and the people who show up later shouldnt have to ask someone to take their tent down. truthfully most people probably wouldnt ask.

I guess I don't spend enough time in shelters. I am missing all the fun. I sleep outside in a tent. I have set a tent up in a shelter when I was alone. I did it at Beaver Brook to get a view of the sunset and sunrise over the Franconia Ridge. Was all alone. Like I said. I have seen people laughing as they crammed more and more in. It was like watching a vw bug contest. I never see these huge conflicts that people talk about here. I guess I need to stay in shelters more. Maybe not.

Malto
09-19-2015, 08:27
I find it funny to use a tent in a shelter for critter control. Sorta like protecting a ten cent fuse with a $100 electrical component. Does anyone believe mice won't chew through your gear to get to what they perceive is either food or bedding? That happens even outside of shelters, I have seen it happen. If you don't like critters stay away from shelters.

outside of winter camping I don't understand why someone would set up a tent in a shelter. Even winter camping is a head scratcher because then you have a tent to pack up in the cold morning.

but at end of the day, I couldn't give a rats or mouses hind end because I have only spent a couple of nights in a shelter with folks that I wasn't hiking with so it doesn't impact me.

Lone Wolf
09-19-2015, 08:29
putting up a shelter in a shelter is a newbie, scardy cat thing

BirdBrain
09-19-2015, 08:33
I find it funny to use a tent in a shelter for critter control. Sorta like protecting a ten cent fuse with a $100 electrical component. Does anyone believe mice won't chew through your gear to get to what they perceive is either food or bedding? That happens even outside of shelters, I have seen it happen. If you don't like critters stay away from shelters.

outside of winter camping I don't understand why someone would set up a tent in a shelter. Even winter camping is a head scratcher because then you have a tent to pack up in the cold morning.

but at end of the day, I couldn't give a rats or mouses hind end because I have only spent a couple of nights in a shelter with folks that I wasn't hiking with so it doesn't impact me.

That's nothing. I use earplugs to keep the monsters from eating me at night. But ya'... I agree. I stay away from the shelters to "lower" my risk of critter attacks. In Maine a raccoon might stand on your face to get your food hanging from the mouse trapezes that are in shelters. I try to minimize risks. The only way to eliminate any risk on the trail is to stay home. Of course you run a huge risk of getting fat doing that.

tdoczi
09-19-2015, 10:28
That's nothing. I use earplugs to keep the monsters from eating me at night. But ya'... I agree. I stay away from the shelters to "lower" my risk of critter attacks. In Maine a raccoon might stand on your face to get your food hanging from the mouse trapezes that are in shelters. I try to minimize risks. The only way to eliminate any risk on the trail is to stay home. Of course you run a huge risk of getting fat doing that.


aww man 5 or 6 nights in shelters in maine and never once has a raccoon ever stood on my face. what a ripoff. of course, it could be because i dont hang my food and wouldnt sleep with my face under it if i did. (i'd probably tie a lousy knot and it'd fall and smack me in the head) had i known that was the way to a have a close encounter of the procyonidae kind i might have tried. i'm more disappointed ive never met a shelter porcupine though, frankly. as for mice? i've always thought the sound of them scurrying round the shelter in the middle of the night (which ive rarely heard as well) to be kind of amusing. and none of them has ever touched any of my stuff. I guess if i was afraid of all the critters in the woods bothering me i'd probably stay home. heck, i dont own any sort of bug net and never carry insect repellant either. its all part of the deal.

BirdBrain
09-19-2015, 15:14
aww man 5 or 6 nights in shelters in maine and never once has a raccoon ever stood on my face. what a ripoff. of course, it could be because i dont hang my food and wouldnt sleep with my face under it if i did. (i'd probably tie a lousy knot and it'd fall and smack me in the head) had i known that was the way to a have a close encounter of the procyonidae kind i might have tried. i'm more disappointed ive never met a shelter porcupine though, frankly. as for mice? i've always thought the sound of them scurrying round the shelter in the middle of the night (which ive rarely heard as well) to be kind of amusing. and none of them has ever touched any of my stuff. I guess if i was afraid of all the critters in the woods bothering me i'd probably stay home. heck, i dont own any sort of bug net and never carry insect repellant either. its all part of the deal.

I have never had one stand on my face either. Slight exaggeration on my part. I have had plenty of dealings with raccoons though. They are very smart and very brave. I look at those tin cans hanging from strings in shelters and chuckle. Eventually it is going to happen. As far as critters go, I would think spiders would drive skiddish people off the trail first. I can't count the times I have eaten their webs while walking. I agree. It is all part of the adventure.

rocketsocks
09-19-2015, 15:19
putting up a shelter in a shelter is a newbie, scardy cat thingThat's why I did it, put my back against the wall in the corner.

Bronk
09-19-2015, 15:36
I always figured people set up their tent in the shelter to block the wind and maybe gain an extra 5 degrees by holding heat in the tent...or if its snowing or raining and the wind is really blowing I've seen the end of people's sleeping bags get wet or covered with snow...but if its an empty shelter you should be able to find a corner, so the wind is the only thing I can think...unless people really are afraid and a thin piece of nylon really allays those fears.

Sarcasm the elf
09-19-2015, 15:49
Why is there no "shelters in tents" thread?

Somebody beens to buy a Yurt and set it up so that one of the A.T. shelters is entirely inside. :-D

elray
09-19-2015, 19:28
I think it's all appearance in my opinion. My wife and I set up the body of our MSR Hubba Hubba in a shelter in the Smoky's one rainy breezy night to keep from setting up in a downpour and to help cut the wind coming right into the opening. We pushed the tent right up next to the wall of the shelter and believe by doing so we took up less space than we would have by sleeping in the open.

BirdBrain
09-19-2015, 20:04
I think it's all appearance in my opinion. My wife and I set up the body of our MSR Hubba Hubba in a shelter in the Smoky's one rainy breezy night to keep from setting up in a downpour and to help cut the wind coming right into the opening. We pushed the tent right up next to the wall of the shelter and believe by doing so we took up less space than we would have by sleeping in the open.


Agreed. I ran the numbers. The footprint of me in my sleeping bag (not in my tent) is about 500 square inches (about 3.5 square feet) less that the footprint of my LLbean FS1. The majority of that difference is in length. There is no way this is an issue. It is appearance only. I have set up my tent in a shelter a couple times. I did so only when no one else was around. No one showed up. However, lets suppose that 12 people showed up at midnight. Would it be reasonable for someone to have an issue with the 3.5 square feet that I am wasting? Would it be reasonable to opine that I should move outside and give up my spot? It looks stupid to have a tent in a shelter. For the most part there is no reason to do it. For the most part I don't do it. This is an appearance issue. It is not an etiquette issue. If it is a legal issue, then there is a real issue. Other than that, if people are using a coffin like ours, there is just unjustified strong opinions based on the appearance created by a goofy practice.

nsherry61
09-19-2015, 21:06
. . . by doing so we took up less space than we would have by sleeping in the open.
+1 on tents reducing the space my wife and I take up.
I can get my wife to sleep much closer to me if she is forced to by the wall of a tent instead of being able to "have her own space". ;)

rickb
09-19-2015, 21:22
Agreed. I ran the numbers. The footprint of me in my sleeping bag (not in my tent) is about 500 square inches (about 3.5 square feet).

You might want to check that ....

DavidNH
09-19-2015, 22:03
I agree setting up a tent inside a shelter is a big major no no. All you are doing is taking up space that some tired hiker that comes along may have wanted. If you sleep in a shelter just roll out your bag and pad. Otherwise sleep in tent OUTSIDE. That's why you carry a tent in the first place-- to have a place to sleep if you can't be in the shelter.

Neemor
09-20-2015, 21:45
Mice are people too, let them crawl on you!

Berserker
09-22-2015, 12:27
I find it funny to use a tent in a shelter for critter control. Sorta like protecting a ten cent fuse with a $100 electrical component. Does anyone believe mice won't chew through your gear to get to what they perceive is either food or bedding? That happens even outside of shelters, I have seen it happen. If you don't like critters stay away from shelters.
Exactly. It's funny because when I did the Georgia section there were some dudes getting ready to set up their tents in the shelter and I just asked them, "Don't you think a mouse could chew right through that?" The dudes thought for a few seconds and then scattered like roaches out into the woods where they set up there tents...it was a pretty funny scene.


putting up a shelter in a shelter is a newbie, scardy cat thing
Yes...this! Stay in a hotel if you need that much shelter.

shelb
09-23-2015, 00:48
There is no reason to set up a shelter, inside of a shelter. ,,,,,,,,,

Agreed!

LittleRock
09-23-2015, 13:20
I've set up my tent inside a shelter a couple of times. Then I moved it out into the rain and slept in it. Stayed much dryer that way.