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jefals
09-19-2015, 15:50
I've been watching some compass/map youtubes, and want to be sure I'm setting the declination correctly. The east/west part is confusing me a little.
I'm setting my compass for the Sierras -- Lake Tahoe area, where the declination is 13 degrees east. If my understanding is correct, this means that the compass needle is pointing 13 degrees east of the North/South lines on the map. (I know, there's also grid north, but I think I can ignore that for my purpose)...
The youtubes look like they're telling me to set the adjustment so that the red arrow (suunto orientieering compass) is to the right (east) of the north cardinal point by 13 degrees. Is this correct? Seems to me that, since I started out with the needle pointing 13 degrees too far east -- now I'm going to be 26 degrees too far east. My thinking is that I should set the pointer to the west by 13 degrees to compensate for the fact that I started out 13 degrees to the east.
Help!? Thanks!

Lambo
09-19-2015, 16:10
I never do the declination adjustment on a compass I just do the math, easier to me that way. get your gm angle off the map and do simple math, grid to magnetic subtract the number, magnetic to grid add the number. It seems so much easier to me then screwing with the compass declination

nsherry61
09-19-2015, 16:26
Keep it simple. The magnetic north pole is in northeastern Canada, to the east of true north if you are in the Sierras.

You want your compass to point to true north, while your compass needle is pointing slightly east (right) of true north at magnetic north.
So, you adjust your compass bezel (the declination) so that when the needle is pointing 13* east of true north, the compass itself is pointing at true north.

So, ignore everything else. If declination is 13* east, you adjust your compass declination setting so the red pointy arrow thing (that you line your needle up with) is 13* east of true north. In this case, at 13* on your bezel.

Don't read this if you are confused: If you are on Mt Katahdin, the magnetic declination is 19.5* West, so you would adjust your red point arrow thing on your compass to point 19.5 degrees left of north or adjust it to 360-19.5=340.5*. Note, Katahdin is located east of that spot in Canada where the north magnetic pole is, so when the needle is pointing to magnetic north on Katahdin, true north is slightly east (to the right) of where the needle is pointing.

jefals
09-19-2015, 17:15
Don't read this if you are confused:

Hey, if I didn't read it, I wouldn't be confused! :) Just kidding...
But your directions confirm what I was seeing in the videos. I'll accept it (even tho it still seems counterintuitive to me), and hope for the best! I posted a week or so about being lost up there, so decided to bone up on my map/compass skills and head back up.
That's interesting what you said about Katahdin being east of the magnetic pole...I thought everything over that way was west of the magnetic pole.
(Reminds me of another interesting fun-fact ... THe most western point in the U.S. is one of the Alaskan islands!)

Feral Bill
09-19-2015, 17:16
Unless you are doing serious orienteering, surveying, or nautical navigation, it is unlikely to be an issue in most places. A crude estimate will do.

nsherry61
09-19-2015, 17:55
s suggested above, maybe instead of focusing on detailed compass navigation skills, you would be better served with building your skills with general map reading and non-compass based navigation.

I rarely use my compass for navigation. If I do, it is rarely used for more than orienting my map when I am all turned around for some reason or another. I generally orient my map to the terrain (not to my compass), if I can see the terrain, which, you generally can in the Sierras.

Also, it is good to remember that keeping yourself found (following your progress on your map) is much better than trying to find yourself after your are unsure of your location.

Unless I am doing extensive off-trail navigation, I don't even take a compass with me on most hikes, other than the little button compass which I keep on my watch band and do use to keep myself oriented in areas with poor terrain visibility. I often think outdoor education focuses far to much on compass navigation skills (which are time consuming, complicated and rarely used in the field) instead of learning to really master the reading of maps and terrain, which are skills needed by everyone and vastly improve the effectiveness of compass navigation if and when it is used.

JohnHuth
09-19-2015, 17:56
Here's a piece I posted some time ago that gives both the math subtraction and the compass-offset method for dealing with declination - maybe it will help

http://artofwayfinding.blogspot.com/2014/08/magnetic-and-true-north-dealing-with.html

jefals
09-19-2015, 18:20
Unless you are doing serious orienteering, surveying, or nautical navigation, it is unlikely to be an issue in most places. A crude estimate will do.
Well, the difference between 260 degrees and 273 widens with distance. And, being a novice backpacker I could be wrong, but I would think that difference could potentially be really serious! :)

jefals
09-19-2015, 18:46
s suggested above, maybe instead of focusing on detailed compass navigation skills, you would be better served with building your skills with general map reading and non-compass based navigation.

I've heard that a lot and I know there's value to it. I want to try the compass and map on the next trip, tho, just to develop my skills in both. Because last time on this trail, I did a lot of "wandering around" off trail, since there were these big granite boulders everywhere. I've plotted the trail on the map, and, for instance, there's one piece that heads southwest from Granite Lake at a 226 degree heading (of course curving this way and that along the way), till it veers sharply to a more westerly 260 degree heading. I know, between Granite lake and the 260 heading, there are going to be granite fields -- places where I'll lose site of the trail. But I'm thinking if I can stay on my 226 degree course I should make it across the granite okay.
And the same is true for the rest of that trail; you stay on a 260 heading till you get to a fork, then it turns sharply towards the north and a 304 heading. And all along the way, there are these granite fields where you often lose site of the trail.
So I'm hoping that, if I can stay on my headings, I should get thru the granite and back on the trail.
On the other hand, just looking at the map, there aren't always landmarks, that I can tell. For instance, from Granite lake to that 260 degree turn, I don't see anything. Where the 260 heading turns into the 304 heading, I do see a peak. Then the 304 will take me to the lakes.


learning to really master the reading of maps and terrain, which are skills needed by everyone and vastly improve the effectiveness of compass navigation if and when it is used.

I agree strongly with this also. I really hope this experience helps me get a little better at both.

JustaTouron
09-19-2015, 19:10
Well, the difference between 260 degrees and 273 widens with distance. And, being a novice backpacker I could be wrong, but I would think that difference could potentially be really serious! :)
Well that depends, most case I am using a compass it I am not trying for an exact number, but more along the lines of "we need to climb that thing that is westish, as oppose to the thing that is northish"

Sent from my SM-T110 using Tapatalk

jefals
09-19-2015, 19:13
Here's a piece I posted some time ago that gives both the math subtraction and the compass-offset method for dealing with declination - maybe it will help

http://artofwayfinding.blogspot.com/2014/08/magnetic-and-true-north-dealing-with.html

Thanks. That's consistent with what I've been reading. My confusion is that, since my needle is already pointing east of true north, I'm thinking I should adjust it to the west, to compensate. And that, if I turn it to the east -- I'll just be getting myself farther away from true north.
But everybody says I've got it wrong. And, since you teach this stuff at Harvard -- I think I'll listen!
Thanks!

CarlZ993
09-19-2015, 19:36
If I get to the point where I have to do some declination correction with a topo map, I'm probably tired &/or confused. To avoid error, I write on my topo maps what the declination adjustment formula is: East declination correction; Map Bearing = Magnetic bearing + Declination; Magnetic bearing = Map bearing - Declination. The compass I use doesn't have declination adjustment feature. I just do the math & apply it to the compass/map.

jefals
09-19-2015, 19:44
If I get to the point where I have to do some declination correction with a topo map, I'm probably tired &/or confused.
I understand that. I've got my map and course and angles plotted ahead of time . The one thing now I wish I had -- without a GPS - is a reliable method, that doesn't rely on batteries, to know how far I've walked. Hopefully I'll know when I get to certain map landmarks, but I mean the entire way.

Dogwood
09-19-2015, 20:11
If declination is 13* east, you adjust your compass declination setting so the red pointy arrow thing (that you line your needle up with) is 13* east of true north. In this case, at 13* on your bezel.

Yes.

learning to really master the reading of maps and terrain, which are skills needed by everyone and vastly improve the effectiveness of compass navigation if and when it is used.

Yes

Where I strongly disagree is the idea that proficient map and compass skills are perceived as mainly or only being needed when going off trail. I can think of many times where sight distance or way pts/notable pts of reference were significantly limited or absent ie; deep wide uniformly forested areas, deep wide canyons, large areas of largely featureless granite/lava/ ice/snow, flat deserts, deep fog, mist, heavy rain, falling snow, deeper snow covered landscapes, etc., ALL possibilities or similar in the Lake Tahoe area ie; Desolation Wilderness, Granite Chief Wilderness, Humboldt-Toiyabe/Stanislaus/Eldorado Nat Forests, etc

Sometimes, you can get away navigating with proficient map reading skills only, IN THE SIERRAS IN THE LAKE TAHOE AREA, like on a TRT thru-hike in Aug, and it certainly is great when that occurs but under some situations it is NOT enough to efficiently navigate. IMHO, proficient compass and map navigation includes BOTH proficient map reading skills and proficient compass skills USED TOGETHER. Yet, there are times when a map is of limited use for navigation in itself.

YES, absolutely even in the Lake Tahoe area of the Sierras, and especially if your hiking conditions resemble anything I've said or have ANY potential to develop into them, or if you do wish to practice gaining map and compass navigational proficiency, account for magnetic declination(MD). Even though I have done the MD adjustments in my head I much prefer using a compass with adjustable bevel where the adjusted MD can be locked in. It's that much less to statistically account for which might vey well be better as you are newly advancing your map and compass skills.

Not being able to pinpoint your location can be costly in several aspects. With significant elevation changes, thick forest, vertical escarpments, talus fields, angled slabs, steep ranges, off trail wandering, possible inclement weather, some remote vastness to the west, etc can translate to major time, energy, etc navigational inefficiencies in the Sierras including the Lake Tahoe area,, especially on the western side of the lake.

Just my opinion and one possible approach.

Dogwood
09-19-2015, 20:28
I understand that. I've got my map and course and angles plotted ahead of time . The one thing now I wish I had -- without a GPS - is a reliable method, that doesn't rely on batteries, to know how far I've walked. Hopefully I'll know when I get to certain map landmarks, but I mean the entire way.

Knowing your pace under different scenarios, over different terrain, weather, etc, can be a critical piece in the navigational puzzle. With limited or no map features or limited visibility, etc knowing my pace, using a watch and compass I've been able to get to my desired destinations with little to no need for a map in route.

I usually do just as you stated - compare my anticipated or perceived pace, reasonably knowing the distance between starting and end destinations, chunking down a longer distance into shorter distances between known pts. For me, this keeps me more on course. BTW, my course navigation in areas like the Sierras isn't always approached in a shortest line between two pts fashion. Sometimes longer distances mean less energy less time less fatigue expenditure.

Dogwood
09-19-2015, 20:36
BTW, the MD is slightly different depending where you are in the Sierras. If I'm recalling correctly I've used from about 12 1/2* to 15*

nsherry61
09-19-2015, 20:46
. . . Where I strongly disagree is the idea that proficient map and compass skills are perceived as mainly or only being needed when going off trail . . .

I don't know that we necessarily disagree.

I suggested that I use a compass mostly when off trail, because, frankly, I can generally see the trail I'm on and know where along that line I am. So I don't need a compass in such conditions. But, proficient map skills are needed to allow me to keep track of where I am. And I do always have a little button compass so I know, in general, which direction is which.

I also suggested it's usefulness when orienting a map without the ability to see terrain, and I inferred using it when I don't know where I am along a trail.

Using a compass in inclement conditions, to maintain orientation, when the trail is not clearly marked is another good time to use a compass.

BUT, in all, during 3-season travel, along well used trails, I have rarely if ever been in a situation where a compass was needed or even all that useful.

Frankly, there are also times, especially when visibility is poor, if you don't know where you are, a compass is pretty much useless (keep that backup GPS somewhere handy).

Finally, I hate to bury this idea at the end of this post, but what the heck:
Some of the most fun I've had and the most useful compass, map, navigational training I've ever had, was my first 100 geocaches that I found using just a map and compass, not a GPS. I highly recommend geocaching with only a map and compass!

Feral Bill
09-19-2015, 20:47
Well, the difference between 260 degrees and 273 widens with distance. And, being a novice backpacker I could be wrong, but I would think that difference could potentially be really serious! :)
As neshrry61 says, "Also, it is good to remember that keeping yourself found (following your progress on your map) is much better than trying to find yourself after your are unsure of your location." Practice comparing your map with your surroundings constantly until it becomes second nature. They will become one in your mind. Consider the compass a backup you'll rarely use. And don't forget to have fun out there.

jefals
09-19-2015, 20:55
I don't know that we necessarily disagree.


Finally, I hate to bury this idea at the end of this post, but what the heck:
Some of the most fun I've had and the most useful compass, map, navigational training I've ever had, was my first 100 geocaches that I found using just a map and compass, not a GPS. I highly recommend geocaching with only a map and compass!

I know. You were saying that a compass is good when you're off trail. I think you might have been talking about being "purposely" off trail. But I found myself in very similar circumstances that Dogwood was describing -- fields of granite out in the Desolation Wilderness where I was off-trail, because I couldn't figure out where the trail was. I usually found it -- sometimes sooner rather than later. But just thinking that if I have a properly oriented map and compass, and the skills to use them in this situation, I might be able to cross that granite and pick up the trail on the other side easier. We'll see -- heading back up next week.

As for that stuff about how much fun you had "geocaching" -- OH, GREAT! Another word for me to look up! :)

jefals
09-19-2015, 20:58
BTW, the MD is slightly different depending where you are in the Sierras. If I'm recalling correctly I've used from about 12 1/2* to 15*
I googled it and came up with 13degrees, 33 minutes for Lake Tahoe. Don't remember the date, but fairly recent. I've got it set between 13 and 14, and hopefully over the distance I'm going, the difference will be negligible enough... HOPEFULLY!!!:-?

nsherry61
09-19-2015, 21:02
. . . I've got it set between 13 and 14, and hopefully over the distance I'm going, the difference will be negligible enough... HOPEFULLY!!!:-?
If you can navigate more precisely than the 2* spacing between hash marks on most compass bezels, you're doing way better than most of us.

Kenai
09-19-2015, 21:08
Here's a piece I posted some time ago that gives both the math subtraction and the compass-offset method for dealing with declination - maybe it will help

http://artofwayfinding.blogspot.com/2014/08/magnetic-and-true-north-dealing-with.html

Thanks for the great article John Huth. I went on to read your "Art of Wayfinding" article. The visual representations made the text crystal clear to me. Been a long time since orienteering with the Boy Scouts. I hope this does not become a lost art. It will be tough for a great many to find their way without their 4G LTE smartphones.

egilbe
09-19-2015, 22:59
To throw another wrench into it, Magnetic North tends to wander a bit. Depending on how old your maps are, they may no longer be accurate. The only time I can think one would need to be really accurate is when calling artillery fire onto a target. Other than that, the general area is usually good enough.

jefals
09-20-2015, 00:06
To throw another wrench into it, Magnetic North tends to wander a bit. Depending on how old your maps are, they may no longer be accurate. The only time I can think one would need to be really accurate is when calling artillery fire onto a target. Other than that, the general area is usually good enough.

Thanks egilbe. I think they try to keep the artillery fire to a minimum out there, so I should be good! :)

rickb
09-20-2015, 08:07
To throw another wrench into it, Magnetic North tends to wander a bit. Depending on how old your maps are, they may no longer be accurate. The only time I can think one would need to be really accurate is when calling artillery fire onto a target. Other than that, the general area is usually good enough.

Assuming your team of patriots is like those I watched on the latest Red Dawn movie, I think I would just gather everyone together in advance and agree to use Magnetic North for all communications.

And that they can just orient their maps to the arrow that says "Magnetic North".

egilbe
09-20-2015, 08:28
Thanks egilbe. I think they try to keep the artillery fire to a minimum out there, so I should be good! :)

I had to learn how to do it and that's how I leaned how to use a map and compass. :D

nsherry61
09-20-2015, 09:28
Gosh, while we're working to get complicated. Another functional alternative to adjusting declination on your compass is to draw a whole new set grid lines on your maps oriented to magnetic north. Then you can ignore the declination adjustment on your compass and the true north grid lines on your map.

JohnHuth
09-20-2015, 09:28
A few quick points -

If you're hiking in the northeastern US and use the 'offset' of the magnetic needle, you'll want that pointing to the 'west' on the dial to compensate for declination. In Boston, it's about 16 degrees west, so I line up the needle with 344 degrees (noting that my precision is rarely better than 2-3 degrees). If I'm hiking in Washington State, where the declination is about 16 degrees east, I line up the needle to the east of the arrow on the housing - so it's pointing to 16 degrees. Since I hike regularly in the east coast, the times when I do hike on the west coast, I always have to pause and remind myself.

The add/subtract trick works, too and I know some people who prefer this - not a big deal, but find a method that works for you and stick with it. I frequently just do both to be methodical.

The secular (time-based) change is typically quite slow, so unless the maps you use are ancient, the declinations on those maps are probably good enough.

I've used compasses the most when I bushwhack, but I carry one when I'm on a trail in any case. Sometimes when you come to a confusing trail junction, the map and compass can help you resolve which way you want to go.

Another time, I was hiking an area where there were few water sources, save for springs every 6-7 miles apart. The area was confusing and I didn't want to miss the next spring, so I used triangulation to gauge my location and progress.

There's more stuff you can link to from that post - it was mainly intended for sea kayakers, but a lot of it works for backpackers.

For the savant, you might want to check out the animation of the time variation of the magnetic field of the earth on this website:

http://www.geo.arizona.edu/palynology/geos462/12paleomag.html

you need to scroll down - it shows you the change in magnetic declination (variation) from 1560 to present across the earth.

JohnHuth
09-20-2015, 11:34
Gosh, while we're working to get complicated. Another functional alternative to adjusting declination on your compass is to draw a whole new set grid lines on your maps oriented to magnetic north. Then you can ignore the declination adjustment on your compass and the true north grid lines on your map.

I do this myself. Here's another post in that series that shows you how to do it on a nautical chart, but the switch-over to a topographic map is quite easy. Note that I make the line spacing a mile - so you can lay out the lanyard in the compass over a path, pull it straight and quickly get a distance.

http://artofwayfinding.blogspot.com/2014/07/drawing-variation-lines.html

jefals
09-20-2015, 11:37
Gosh, while we're working to get complicated. Another functional alternative to adjusting declination on your compass is to draw a whole new set grid lines on your maps oriented to magnetic north. Then you can ignore the declination adjustment on your compass and the true north grid lines on your map.

Yes, I saw that in one of the videos I watched. Didn't seem too difficult either way. btw, the light came on for me, last night while I was kinda half sleeping. My confusion was that, since I was already 13 degrees east with no adjustment for declination, I thought it made sense to adjust the arrow towards the west. But it finally dawned on me that, by adjusting to the east, I now have to turn the body of the compass towards the west to get the "red in the shed".

jefals
09-20-2015, 11:42
I had to learn how to do it and that's how I leaned how to use a map and compass. :D
Well, you got me thinking about artillary fire, and thinking about the times we live in, and this awesome place I'm hiking in -- and I hate do digress from the purpose of this forum, but God Bless the brave young men and women keeping us and our families safe and free in this amazing land!

Dogwood
09-20-2015, 11:44
I stick to only hiking within about 50 miles of the Mississippi River. N need to learn about MD. :D

jefals
09-20-2015, 11:59
A few quick points -

If you're hiking in the northeastern US and use the 'offset' of the magnetic needle, you'll want that pointing to the 'west' on the dial to compensate for declination. In Boston, it's about 16 degrees west, so I line up the needle with 344 degrees (noting that my precision is rarely better than 2-3 degrees). If I'm hiking in Washington State, where the declination is about 16 degrees east, I line up the needle to the east of the arrow on the housing - so it's pointing to 16 degrees. Since I hike regularly in the east coast, the times when I do hike on the west coast, I always have to pause and remind myself.

Yes, that's what I was having a hard time with. I was thinking that I should be adjusting in the opposite direction of the declination. I figured, if my compass is already pointing too far east, I want to adjust it towards the west. It finally dawned on me that the needle's going to keep pointing in the same direction, no matter what adjustment I make. The adjustment to the east, forces me to turn the housing to the west --- so that's why everything works out!!

The add/subtract trick works, too and I know some people who prefer this - not a big deal, but find a method that works for you and stick with it. I frequently just do both to be methodical.

I'm kinda thinking this might leave me more prone to mistakes. I can set my declination and plot my course well ahead of time.
One thing novices (like me) should probably be reminded of is that you're going to have to be aware if you're trying to plot your course ahead of time using your map and compass -- while you are, say, in Boston, and planning a hike in Washington State. That's gonna add a little complexity, since you're going to have to adjust for the declination in both places....right?

The secular (time-based) change is typically quite slow, so unless the maps you use are ancient, the declinations on those maps are probably good enough.

I've used compasses the most when I bushwhack, but I carry one when I'm on a trail in any case. Sometimes when you come to a confusing trail junction, the map and compass can help you resolve which way you want to go.

I'm not sure what bushwhacking is. THe mental image I get is someone with a machete, hacking their way thru a jungle. But off-trail, in any case. That's why I'm interested in it -- trying to stay on a trail, where the trail disappears and then picks up again on the other side of granite fields...

JohnHuth
09-20-2015, 12:39
Yes, it's generally good to think about how you're going to approach things ahead of time. I was on Colorado where the declination was 8 degrees *east* and I started taking a bearing assuming a *west* declination, but caught myself in the process.

Also - it's pretty common to go through the thought process you did - thinking of compensating in the opposite direction. At the base of most topographic maps, there's a little arrow offset to show declination - that's what the compass orientation should look like to compensate properly. You aren't the only one who gets confused - there's the story of Steven Whittaker who decided to cross Nova Scotia via canoe and on foot. He got the 18 degree declination backwards and ended up getting horribly lost. In effect, he was traveling 36 degrees off of what his heading should have been.

"Bushwhacking" - has different meanings, I guess. It does have a connotation of hacking brush, but it also has a meaning of going off-trail, for me and the people I go out with anyway. That's a good exercise in and of itself.

If you want to hone your skills, you might want to see if you can find a local orienteering club and run (or walk) one of their courses. I frequently take people out into some local woods and once they're comfortable, have them take an old course - it adds some comfort level. Like most skills, practice is important, and getting good feedback - making mistakes, correcting them, etc will give you confidence.

jefals
09-20-2015, 13:25
Thanks John. I may look for an orienteering club. Didn't think of that and it's a good idea.
Yeah, I know about the little diagram. One youtube I watched, the fellow had his compass under the diagram, with the North cardinal indicator under TN and the shed pointing in the direction of MN. He made the point that you should really redraw this diagram first, or at least check it, with a protractor.

nsherry61
09-20-2015, 14:52
. . . One thing novices (like me) should probably be reminded of is that you're going to have to be aware if you're trying to plot your course ahead of time using your map and compass -- while you are, say, in Boston, and planning a hike in Washington State. That's gonna add a little complexity, since you're going to have to adjust for the declination in both places....right? . . .
Actually, wrong.

Declination only matters when you are in the field trying to orient yourself and your map to magnetic north. When plotting headings on a map, if you use your compass, you are only using it as a protractor. You can be facing any direction you want. Your heading is calculated off the the map grid lines, not a magnetic compass heading. . . I hope. ;)

jefals
09-20-2015, 15:49
Actually, wrong.

Declination only matters when you are in the field trying to orient yourself and your map to magnetic north. When plotting headings on a map, if you use your compass, you are only using it as a protractor. You can be facing any direction you want. Your heading is calculated off the the map grid lines, not a magnetic compass heading. . . I hope. ;)

Thanks, Nsherry -- you might have just saved my life! :) Just doublechecked this, and discovered you are correct -- changing the declination is NOT changing the outer ring of my compass.

MuddyWaters
09-20-2015, 18:56
Only thing you need declination for is orienting a map, and absolute measurements from true north.

to orient map. lay on ground, align compass with N-S lines, and rotate map until needle points to declination on declination scale. Now it matches orientation of real world.

Shooting bearings, plotting on map, etc are all relative measurements. They can be relative to true or magnetic north. You can use either

One is easier because thats where the compass points and requires no math.
Just be consistent.

rickb
09-20-2015, 19:41
One is easier because thats where the compass points and requires no math.
Just be consistent.

Probably why the thumb compasses they uses for orienteering competitions don't adjust for declination.

fudgefoot
09-20-2015, 20:52
Probably why the thumb compasses they uses for orienteering competitions don't adjust for declination.

Orienteering maps are always drawing to magnetic north so there is no need to correct for declination. Saves a lot of time when trying to navigate during a race.

jefals
09-20-2015, 21:13
I should probably take an orienteering class. I'm sitting here at home in Sacramento and I've plotted my course on the trail I'm doing next week in the Sierras. Looks pretty easy; Head at 223 till it turns more westerly at 259 till it forks and I go right at 304 which takes me to my destination...
On the map, the trail appears pretty straight along these headings ---
but I have a feeling something's gonna go wrong :)
The problem -- if you haven't read all this -- is that there are several places where the trail empties into a granite field of boulders, and somewhere on the other side of those boulders I pick up the trail again. Ideally, I'm thinking, if I'm on the first part of the trail, then I should be able to head at 223 from where the trail ended to where I pick it up again. I have a feeling, it's not gonna work out quite that easy!

fudgefoot
09-20-2015, 21:29
This is one of the potential problems with compass bearings - there may be uncrossable features between you and where you want to get to making it impossible to follow a bearing all the way. In this instance, additional skills such as contour reading, distance estimation,etc. can be very helpful. I think orienteering is very complementary to backpacking. The largest, most active club in CA is the Bay Area OC (BAOC). Blind reliance on a compass can get you into trouble.

JohnHuth
09-21-2015, 08:51
Jefals -

You might want to ponder the idea of deliberate offsets when crossing sketchy terrain. The idea is that you aim to one side or another of a goal - which might be on the edge of woods or some other one-dimensional feature. Once you reach that, you know which direction to travel. I've often done this when in the fogs off the coast of Maine, kayaking.

An orienteering club is great in terms of the map and compass skill set - even though I thought I was good when I started up with our local club, I learned even more.

jefals
09-21-2015, 10:21
The largest, most active club in CA is the Bay Area OC (BAOC). Blind reliance on a compass can get you into trouble.
Thanks, fudgefoot...I looked that up and might sign up. Looks like it leans towards competition, too. Not really interested in that, but if I can get to a point where I can look at these squiggly lines on the map and translate that into what the scenery around me is going to look like -- that'd be great!

jefals
09-21-2015, 11:00
Jefals -

You might want to ponder the idea of deliberate offsets when crossing sketchy terrain. The idea is that you aim to one side or another of a goal - which might be on the edge of woods or some other one-dimensional feature. Once you reach that, you know which direction to travel. I've often done this when in the fogs off the coast of Maine, kayaking.

An orienteering club is great in terms of the map and compass skill set - even though I thought I was good when I started up with our local club, I learned even more.

One of the youtube videos out there I watched went over this, and was pretty good. Gave me some terminology that I had heard but wasn't sure what it was -- "handrails", "back stops", "base lines", aiming off" -- which is what you've suggested above.
Also little important things you'd think a man that's lived to be 68 years old on this earth would know, i.e...
If you're facing the sun in the morning, you're looking southeast, etc.

Here is a link to a map I'm using: If you scroll down and follow the eastern edge down, you'll come to emerald bay. South of the bay is Inspiration Point and below that, Bayview Campground. Bayview is my starting point, and heading west (and a little south) to Middle Velma Lake.
You can see the trail goes past Granite Lake and up to Maggie's Peak, and up to there it's easy to follow. Beyond Maggies Peak is where you start running into these fields of granite boulders.
If you follow that trail, south of M.P, you'll see the red number 32, and then, a little west you see that number 32 again. (Can you tell me what those numbers mean?). Anyway, my plan is that, at Maggie's Peak I'll try and start following a heading of 223, to reach a point at that first 32, where the trail curves around more towards the west.
One of the issues I think I'll run into is that there's not much to aim at, other than those boulders. I think, once the trail disappears, I'm going to site a boulder, but then have to really pay attention because pretty soon, all the boulders are going to all look alike!

https://tahoetowhitney.com/picturetrail/Tahoe_to_Alpine/Meeks_to_Echo_Summit/Maps/Meeks_Trailhead_Region_Map.html#map

nsherry61
09-21-2015, 14:41
. . . if I can get to a point where I can look at these squiggly lines on the map and translate that into what the scenery around me is going to look like -- that'd be great!

And, as suggested earlier in this thread, that is also probably the most import outdoor navigation skill you can have.
Do whatever it takes to get comfortable and accurate at reading those maps. Then, after that, worry about incorporating a compass into your navigation.

jefals
09-21-2015, 16:19
And, as suggested earlier in this thread, that is also probably the most import outdoor navigation skill you can have.
Do whatever it takes to get comfortable and accurate at reading those maps. Then, after that, worry about incorporating a compass into your navigation.
Yes, someone suggested an orienteering club, not too far from me. I think it's a great idea --- although, truth be told, I'd much rather be hiking on well-marked trails where I didn't have to worry about getting lost so much! But as they say, "hope for the best, prepare for the worst"!

nsherry61
09-21-2015, 17:11
Yes, someone suggested an orienteering club, not too far from me. I think it's a great idea . . .
The other thing to do is spend lots of time outdoors and paying close attention to the terrain your are in. Stop often to reconnoiter exactly where you are, and then line up your maps and spend time looking at the terrain and finding all the visible terrain features on your map, the little gullies, the various peaks and valleys, the little shoulder on one peak and the saddle between two others, etc. Then turn around and look at your map in excruciating detail, and try to find every detail in the terrain that you see on your map. Of course, doing these things works best when you have good visibility of terrain. But, just always keeping track of what's around you and what you expect to see around the next corner will help you read a map like nothing else.

Have fun. Get lost often (in a fun and constructive way).

rickb
09-21-2015, 18:38
If you follow that trail, south of M.P, you'll see the red number 32, and then, a little west you see that number 32 again. (Can you tell me what those numbers mean?

https://tahoetowhitney.com/picturetrail/Tahoe_to_Alpine/Meeks_to_Echo_Summit/Maps/Meeks_Trailhead_Region_Map.html#map

There is an explanation of the UTM grid (squares) at the bottom of your map. The squares with more than one number were split in two on the physical map.

rickb
09-21-2015, 18:40
If you follow that trail, south of M.P, you'll see the red number 32, and then, a little west you see that number 32 again. (Can you tell me what those numbers mean?

https://tahoetowhitney.com/picturetrail/Tahoe_to_Alpine/Meeks_to_Echo_Summit/Maps/Meeks_Trailhead_Region_Map.html#map

There is an explanation of the UTM grid (squares) at the bottom of your map. The squares with more than one number were split in two (or 4) on the physical map.

rickb
09-21-2015, 19:07
There is an explanation of the UTM grid (squares) at the bottom of your map. The squares with more than one number were split in two (or 4) on the physical map.

Looking closer, I am not certain those squares are the UTM grid-- even thought that is what the note says at the bottom of the map.

Google tells me they may be PLS "Townships". UTM lines would intersect in a way that would always create 4 corners.






Township, Range, and Section

In 1812, the U.S. Government formed the General Land Office (renamed the Bureau of Land Management in 1946) to create a standardized system to more accurately define a given U.S. location. This system was initiated in response to the aquisition of large tracts of land, like the Lousiana Purchase, during the early 1800s.

The system developed by the General Land Office is called the Government Land Office Grid System and is used in states west of Ohio. This system divides land into 36 square mile units called townships.

Each township has a township and range designation to define its 36 square mile area. Township is numbered north or south from a selected parallel of latitude called a base line and range, is numbered west or east of a selected meridian of longitude called a principle meridian.

Townships are sub-divided into 36 1 by 1 mile parcels called sections. Sections are numbered from 1 to 36 for identification. Sections are broken into quarters, which are further quartered to describe a property location.

The office grid system is used for legal land descriptions.

jefals
09-21-2015, 21:07
Thanks Rick.

rocketsocks
09-21-2015, 23:41
This is well worth a read, referral and reference.

https://archive.org/details/milmanual-fm-3-25.26-map-reading-and-land-navigation

jefals
09-22-2015, 01:58
This is well worth a read, referral and reference.

https://archive.org/details/milmanual-fm-3-25.26-map-reading-and-land-navigation

oh, mama! This one's too much for me!

Five Tango
09-22-2015, 07:36
Waaaay back in the 20th Century,analog people learning to fly actually used these devices to plot a True Course to which they added Westerly declination or subtracted Easterly declination to determine a magnetic heading to follow.
I have no idea whether or not they would still work today because they are not digital or electric and require simple math to use.Of course modern day millenial type people could still resort to use of an I phone with calculator to add a number which usually is smaller than 15 but then again that is two digits that have to be dealt with.:banana
http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/forever-sectional-plotter-by-sporty-s.html

jefals
09-22-2015, 10:44
Waaaay back in the 20th Century,analog people learning to fly actually used these devices to plot a True Course to which they added Westerly declination or subtracted Easterly declination to determine a magnetic heading to follow.
I have no idea whether or not they would still work today because they are not digital or electric and require simple math to use.Of course modern day millenial type people could still resort to use of an I phone with calculator to add a number which usually is smaller than 15 but then again that is two digits that have to be dealt with.:banana
http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/forever-sectional-plotter-by-sporty-s.html

Sounds interesting but I'll have to check it out later...getting ready to head out now, to test out how all my new found navigational skills are gonna work. WISH ME LUCK!!!

Another Kevin
09-22-2015, 15:58
Timid virgins make dull company at weddings.
(Or, working the other way: Chicago dead men vote twice at elections.)

Mnemonic for "true + variation = magnetic; magnetic + deviation = compass (add west)" and "compass + deviation = magnetic; magnetic + variation = true (add east)." I still remember those phrases, even though I use a compass with adjustable declination.

rocketsocks
09-22-2015, 16:17
"East is least, West is best" a common axiom amongst pilots. My Pop taught me that one, he was a private pilot.

Least meaning subtract, best meaning more or add.

rickb
09-22-2015, 20:31
Jefals hasn't posted since before lunch.

I think he must be lost.

Should we put together a search team?

Anyone else feeling guilty for not for not insisting he take a GPS on his practice hike?

jefals
09-24-2015, 00:51
Jefals hasn't posted since before lunch.

I think he must be lost.

Should we put together a search team?

Anyone else feeling guilty for not for not insisting he take a GPS on his practice hike?

I'm back. I have no idea how some of you guys hike day in, day out for 2180 miles! I went in Tuesday, out Wednesday and I bet I've got the sorest legs in California!
But I did pretty good with my new (rudimentary as they may be) skills with the map and compass. At the start, I was checking that map almost everywhere, and a lot of times I could recognize ridge lines, and sometimes at least I think I could recognize the terrain. And it was very comforting to check the compass and see that I was heading in the direction I had plotted out. When I got to those rock fields where I had so much trouble the first time, I never got lost at all. Well, maybe once. I might have found it on my own -- but, a forest ranger showed up, so I just asked her.
But today I carried that pack -- I'm guessing approx. 27 lbs, give or take 1 or 2, from 9:30AM till 4:30 PM. Lots of ups and downs, lots of granite.
Right now I can barely walk!
I did have one incident, tho. There was a signpost, and the arrows didn't quite jive with the direction of the trails. I wound up going the wrong way -- and it was pretty much uphill. After a while I started feeling like I was going the wrong way. But I also felt like -- "what if I'm really going the right way? If I go back, and then find out I was heading correctly, now I've got to redo all this uphill". So, I figured, let's climb a little more. Then a little more....But finally, I knew I had to go back!

But overall I still feel good, because this was a different kind of problem than I had had before where I couldn't follow the trail. I can learn from this experience also -- but, it's different.

JohnHuth
09-24-2015, 08:06
Well done! And...yes, the recognizing-I-took-the-wrong-trail and going back happens to the best of us.

On the legs - conditioning! In prepping for a hike in the Alps, I did some conditioning hikes - the first day was an eye opener - could hardly walk the next day.

Another Kevin
09-24-2015, 13:02
Great job, not feeling lost and managing your boulder field where you got confused before! (I remember that story, I was the guy who suggested looking for crampon scratches.)

Trail signs do occasionally get turned around, or just not quite point in the right direction. They're a reliable indicator that you've reached a junction, but unless you can see the next waymark (blaze, cairn, or even signs of trail maintenance), they may not be giving quite the right way. As you get more comfortable with compass navigation, you'll find yourself having much more of a sense of what the sign is actually telling you and what direction you need to look. (And as you get more used to reading contour lines, you'll have much more of a sense of "The trail doesn't climb/descend this far, something's wrong here." Or in the case where I last went half a mile astray, "I don't see any blazes, although this is clearly a maintained trail. It's heading about 20 degrees left of where the map says, and it should be climbing here and isn't." I had indeed missed a fork, and was on someone's unofficial X-C ski trail. I turned back and found my mistake in fairly short order. (I think of that sort of mistake as just being part of hiking.)

Alas, often what's wrong is the map! That's why I encourage hikers to use GPS and contribute to OpenStreetMap. The government is mostly out of the mapping game, except for satellite observation and military operations, so keeping trail maps up to date really becomes the job of citizen mappers. If we don't do it, it won't get done.

Next, you should get used to doing a route card as part of your trip plan. Make notes of the features that you see on the map along your route (cols, spurs, reentrants, streams, fences, junctions, roads, whatever) and their approximate distances and headings. Then as you hike it, check them off - noting the time - as you go. Doing this on trail will also let you get a decent estimate of your pace so that you develop a sense of when you expect to reach the next feature. The orienteers call this "collecting features," so if you see a reference to that, this process is what they're talking about.

The other thing to start looking for is "handrails" - linear features that you can walk along (roads, trails, maybe streams, ridges, fences, posted property lines, ...) and "backstops" - linear features that you will surely recognize in the field that will tell you you've gone too far.

(I won't get into things like "aiming off" yet. You need to get comfortable with recognizing features and matching the map to the terrain first.)

If you get to a point with a good view and distant features (peaks, firetowers, buildings, highway intersections, whatever) that you can recognize, you might also want to try resecting a few sights and see how close you can come.

Are you sure that the AT is the hike you want to do? I'm reading your posts, and saying, "this guy is a bushwhacker in the making!" (About a third of my hikes involve at least some off-trail travel, so I may be projecting here.)

jefals
09-24-2015, 15:17
Well done! And...yes, the recognizing-I-took-the-wrong-trail and going back happens to the best of us.

On the legs - conditioning! In prepping for a hike in the Alps, I did some conditioning hikes - the first day was an eye opener - could hardly walk the next day.
I should have clarified -- it's really just the right knee. I think it took a real beating on the downhills -- a lot of stepping down, rather than sloping, where you're landing on granite! I think, from what I hear about the AT, Pennsylvania might be a lot like this...

jefals
09-24-2015, 15:42
Hey Kevin, yeah I know about handrails, backstops, baselines, aiming off....My goal on this trip was to see if I could stay on the trail -- so, the trail was my handrail, and I didn't want to do any aiming off or anything. If I got off the trail, I just wanted to be able to quickly find it. I don't think out where I was, there were a lot of things to use for backstops and baselines. I did have a "backstop" I think. The southwest corner of the lake. I thought there were supposed to be campsites on the southern edge of the lake, so I went all the way to the SW corner, and never saw any. So I backtracked to another good spot to set up -- although not an official campsite. ( I was hoping for the campsites, cause I figured there might be some more people around -- but, no such luck).

I did use my GPS -- well, my "AllTrails" app on my cell phone. I'll have to look up "resecting" -- not sure what it means.
One thing I couldn't tell -- don't know how -- is how to look at the map and figure out if I'm supposed to be going uphill, level, or downhill... Of course I haven't taken that orienteering class yet. But there were places where I could see lakes, and there was one stream, so when I was near those places I could check that easily on the map. Also a few ridge lines. But then, there were other places where I would see a ridge line, look for it on the map, and not be able to find it.

A lot of those features you mentioned -- cols, spurs, reentrants -- I have no clue what those are! :) So, gotta lot to learn in that regard also. I wish they could just have signs out there, like "2nd Ave and 46th street!".

And while I've always wanted to do the AT, mainly for the "romantic challenge" of it, I know it's not the same now as when I first started thinking about it 35 or 40 years ago. Lots more people on it now. But I bet there's still long stretches with solitude. But I've done a lot of hiking in different kinds of terrain. Last fall I did a road trip from West to East -- California to the East coast, stopping and hiking all along the way. I really like well maintained dirt trails, which I think most of the AT probably is....but, you don't always get those! :)

JohnHuth
09-24-2015, 19:22
from what I hear about the AT, Pennsylvania might be a lot like this... Or the Mahoosucs on the NH/Maine border every step is a puzzle on some bits.