View Full Version : Do you believe in miracles?
I'm not sure what a miracle is, but I think they can be just little things. Here are some that I experienced on my recent backpacking trip:
1) After a long day of hiking, I had my tent set up, it's getting dark, I crawl inside, empty my pockets -- and my keys aren't there. Feel all around, can't find em. So, thoughts start running thru my head -- "you dummy, you KNOW you should have secured your keys and your wallet when you left the parking lot!. Now I'm gonna have to call AAA, or probably a Hyundai dealer -- who probably won't even be open"...
About an hour into thinking thoughts like this, I rolled over -- and, within the recesses of my air mattress, I felt the keys!". So, that was a lesson. After that, first thing in the morning, I secured the wallet and the keys!
2) One of my goals on this trip was to see how good I could stay on this trail. And for the most part I was doing really good. But I was walking for hours without anybody else around. The one time when I wasn't sure which way to go -- I heard somebody behind me. Turned out to be a forest service person, and she pointed out the ducks and where the trail was! ( I may have seen them without her if I kept looking, but maybe not).
3) Just the fact that I made it back to my car ok! After I discarded my pack, I wanted to walk across the street to see something called Inspiration Point, overlooking Emerald Bay. But there was a lot of traffic on that road, and I didn't trust my legs that were really aching at that point. So decided against trying to walk across.
Then drove about 90 miles home, and when I got there, I found my right knee was in bad shape. It's getting better now, but it's amazing to me that it held up long enough to get me out of the woods!
I know we all have these kinds of experiences -- not just in hiking, but different areas of life in general. And they could be just small things we appreciate and take for granted. Are they miracles? maybe...?
Sarcasm the elf
09-24-2015, 16:27
The stories you have above are examples of original definition of "Trail Magic". People today like to use the term to describe planned hiker feeds, but the actual definition of the word refers to how the trail very often provides what you need most at the time when it is most important, and it is uncanny how often this can happen when you hike.
My favorite personal trail magic story:
I was on the A.T. near Dennytown rd. in NY., about 200 miles from where I live. There is a large state run car camping area and supposedly there is also a free A.T. hiker campsite but we couldn't find it. My buddy and I were exhausted and frustrated so we eventually dropped out gear and laid down in one of the empty sites to take a break. A few minutes later, one of the people in the next site over walked up to say Hi, when he got close we suddenly realised that he was the manager of my local outfitter that we had spent hours with while buying all our gear. We ended up camping with them them that night and drinking their good beer.
peakbagger
09-24-2015, 16:40
My favorite, I was in 100mile widerness at a shelter and two new SOBOs mentioned that someone they had been hiking with had stopped at lunch dumped much of the contents of his pack in bag and headed home. He told them whatever they wanted was free. Next morning I walk by the bag and there is a full jumbo MSR fuel bottle. I decide to take it as I worked with a local scout troop who could use it. I get to Hurd Brook and there is aspiring southbounder with the contents of his pack spread out everywhere. The guy looked destitute and I very quickly smelled coleman fuel. I asked him what the problem was and told me his fuel bottle had leaked all over his packs contents and was just about empty. He was bummed as he was going to have to find a way back to Millinocket and leave all his buds to get more fuel. I then set my pack down and handed him a full MSR fuel bottle. I told him it was his first piece of trail magic, he was real happy. I offered to haul out the old bottle but he decided to keep it as he had just bought it.
Lone Wolf
09-24-2015, 17:13
I'm not sure what a miracle is, but I think they can be just little things. Here are some that I experienced on my recent backpacking trip:
1) After a long day of hiking, I had my tent set up, it's getting dark, I crawl inside, empty my pockets -- and my keys aren't there. Feel all around, can't find em. So, thoughts start running thru my head -- "you dummy, you KNOW you should have secured your keys and your wallet when you left the parking lot!. Now I'm gonna have to call AAA, or probably a Hyundai dealer -- who probably won't even be open"...
About an hour into thinking thoughts like this, I rolled over -- and, within the recesses of my air mattress, I felt the keys!". So, that was a lesson. After that, first thing in the morning, I secured the wallet and the keys!
2) One of my goals on this trip was to see how good I could stay on this trail. And for the most part I was doing really good. But I was walking for hours without anybody else around. The one time when I wasn't sure which way to go -- I heard somebody behind me. Turned out to be a forest service person, and she pointed out the ducks and where the trail was! ( I may have seen them without her if I kept looking, but maybe not).
3) Just the fact that I made it back to my car ok! After I discarded my pack, I wanted to walk across the street to see something called Inspiration Point, overlooking Emerald Bay. But there was a lot of traffic on that road, and I didn't trust my legs that were really aching at that point. So decided against trying to walk across.
Then drove about 90 miles home, and when I got there, I found my right knee was in bad shape. It's getting better now, but it's amazing to me that it held up long enough to get me out of the woods!
I know we all have these kinds of experiences -- not just in hiking, but different areas of life in general. And they could be just small things we appreciate and take for granted. Are they miracles? maybe...?
no. god has more important things to do than make your keys appear
Another Kevin
09-24-2015, 17:21
no. god has more important things to do than make your keys appear
Not a great argument. Most believers would say that God isn't bound to space and time. It doesn't matter how many people need Him, when you call Him you don't get a busy signal.
BirdBrain
09-24-2015, 17:32
I do. They are all over the place if you look for them. I share many stories with my children as they face the uncertainties of life. These stories are encouraging. I hope to read many more in this thread. I will share one. It is not the most spectacular or valuable or even a trail story, but is one of the most important miracles to me.
My parents divorced when I was 4. I am one of those odd people that has memories from every year of my life. It was an ugly divorce. I saw my father only a handful of times as I grew up after that event. One of the last outings we had before the divorce was at a fair. At the fair there was a machine that made aluminum tokens. You put a quarter in and spun the dial to the letters and put what ever info you wanted on it. It had my name and address on one side and a four leaf clover and goodluck on the other side. I carried that token with me for decades. It was worn smooth by the time I was a teenager.
Fast forward to the late 80's. My wife and I spent a 3 day weekend in Boston. We took the T everywhere and walked in between spots. When I got home, I realized that the token was gone. So, back we went. At 2 AM we arrived back at the hotel. Not much was said on the way down. As I left the car to ask the front desk if they had it, I just simply told my wife that I could not go home without that token. She said she knew. Of course the clerk did not have it. My wife said "What now"? I said, "I am going to find my token". We had covered Boston over the weekend. It could have been anywhere. I started walking to the nearest T. Several hundred yards later, I saw a patch of grass in the sidewalk no larger than a dinner plate. I reached down and picked up my token. I no longer carry it with me. It is too valuable to risk losing. It is in my curio cabinet along with other similarly priceless items.
Not a hiking story. But ya, I believe in miracles.
Note: I purposely left out the private conversations I had with what many would describe as my imaginary invisible friend so as not to offend the sensitive or invite redicule from those inclined to argue such things.
Pedaling Fool
09-24-2015, 17:34
If these things ever happen to me, then I'll start believing in miracles...maybe... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kGbmCyO87M
BTW, I had a very similar thing happen to me when I thought I lost my wallet on a bike tour. I was sure I left it in the last town I stopped and was almost ready to start making phone calls when all of a sudden I found it in a seldom used pocket in my handlebar bag. I think this probably happens to us all. Although, I could talk about times I know I should have died -- seriously; those do make you wonder...
Abatis1948
09-24-2015, 17:38
Several years ago I was on a section hike from Amicalola Falls State Park to Neel Gap when I had a very unusual encounter with a Trail Angel on Ramrock Mountain at a rocky overlook. I had been walking in the rain for four straight days and all I wanted to do was to make it to Neel Gap and get off the trail. As I was making my descent from the overlook I noticed a man walking toward me dressed in all white. He was carrying an umbrella with prints of kittens on it. I said hello and he looked at me and stated “walk over here, where you are about to step is very treacherous”. He walked passed me turned around and walked pass me again heading north on the trail. When I turned the next bend he was no longer in sight. I found his tracks, but they seemed to just disappear. Even though he was dressed in white, he had no mud on his shoes or pants. I believe he kept me from slipping on the rocks. I have no doubt this was a true Angel.
I would say the best trail magic that I have been lucky to recieve was a snowmachine ride back to my car. I went for a winter snow shoe hike in BWCA in northern Minneasota with my husky Sasha. We planed on a 8 day hike of about 90 mile loop. Everything was going fine until day 4 when Sasha found a porcupine and decided to say hello and got swatted filling her muzzle with quills. Trip over and back to the car as fast as I can to get her back to the vet to get them pulled out. I tried to pull some in the woods but after about 30 quills she had had enough of that and was not very happy with me and let me know. Now I need stitches in my thumb, cleaned it out and put on the magic duct tape and off to the car in a 39 mile long haul back to the car. About 1.5 miles back to the car I hear two snowmachines and they stopped to ask where they were because they were off the main trail and mot sure where they were. I showed them where they were and they offered/insisted on giving me a ride back to my car. A few hours later back in the car on the way to an emergency vet to drop off Sasha and across town to the ER for me and all worked out great.
no. god has more important things to do than make your keys appear
Where did you get that info?
These are great stories. The weirdest small thing that ever happened to me : I'm on a cruise, standing in line to disembark and catch a bus for an excursion - and - all of a sudden I have to blow my nose. I ask my gf if she has any kleenex. She doesn't. So I look around to see if there's a restroom close by. There isn't, but, on the floor right behind me is a brand new box of kleenex!
I agree with Kevin. The concept of God does not jive with the idea of being too busy to doing anything.
(And if this were a different forum I'd love to discuss the concept God existing outside of time. ..interesting stuff! )
Pedaling Fool
09-25-2015, 08:34
Several years ago I was on a section hike from Amicalola Falls State Park to Neel Gap when I had a very unusual encounter with a Trail Angel on Ramrock Mountain at a rocky overlook. I had been walking in the rain for four straight days and all I wanted to do was to make it to Neel Gap and get off the trail. As I was making my descent from the overlook I noticed a man walking toward me dressed in all white. He was carrying an umbrella with prints of kittens on it. I said hello and he looked at me and stated “walk over here, where you are about to step is very treacherous”. He walked passed me turned around and walked pass me again heading north on the trail. When I turned the next bend he was no longer in sight. I found his tracks, but they seemed to just disappear. Even though he was dressed in white, he had no mud on his shoes or pants. I believe he kept me from slipping on the rocks. I have no doubt this was a true Angel. That's a great story, but I wonder why my guardian angle(s) are less proactive in protecting me:-?
It's as if they want to at least see me fall... Just one example: I was coming down some mountain in Vermont, feeling tired, but being very cautious, since it was a wet day and all around me were roots, rocks, much of which were moss covered and of course mud. I slipped on something and went down so fast didn't even have time to think, much less react. My left knee took 100% of the impact, it was as if my leg was a spear and my knee was the head of the spear. This could have been a serious injury, since I was going downhill, even if all I hit was ground.
However, my knee hit a completely soft, spongy mass of green moss, what's more incredible is that there were rocks all around my knee. Somehow my knee landed in the only soft spot around. I sat there with my knee stuck in the moss with all the rocks around and just couldn't believe my good fortune. I really had a feeling that this was no accident/coincidence. These are the times that really make you think.
That's trail magic.
Uncle Joe
09-25-2015, 09:13
I wouldn't call them miracles. Fortune? Perhaps a blessing. I think anything is possible with God so nothing He does is truly a miracle. Now when he grants such power to a human, then you have a miracle. But ensuring we don't strike a knee is good fortune. We can be thankful.
Not a great argument. Most believers would say that God isn't bound to space and time. It doesn't matter how many people need Him, when you call Him you don't get a busy signal.
AK, that is a correct statement. He and I are very close and I know this to be true. He is my Father.
I don't believe in god or in miracles but I entertain myself by believing that some benign force has kept me safe and out of harm's way on my walks along the AT. So many things could go wrong, but mostly they don't. I pay respect to that benign force by blowing a kiss at a white blaze every now and then. It's silly, irrational, invites ridicule, but I do it anyway. I take nothing for granted, especially not my health and safety on the trail.
BirdBrain
09-25-2015, 10:24
To those that do not share our beliefs, thank you for the restraint being exercised. Thank you for allowing those that believe to share in this manner. I do not believe it was the intent of the OP to qualify the miracle or necessarily give credit to God. I also like the sentiment expressed about the happenstances of the trail being the true meaning of trail magic. That term has really been disfigured.
However, since the thread is bending, I will comment. If we are to believe in the Christian God (and I do), we must take the authority it Its Word. God most certainly is not bound by an attribute of our existence. God describes Himself in the present tense. "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." "And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you." "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." Furthermore, prior to the creation, there was no linear timeline. There was no yesterday or tomorrow. "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." And lastly, eternal events are injected into our linear timeline so we can have a reference point. "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," This linear existence is all we know. If you know your Bible and believe your Bible, this linear path is completely irrelevant to an eternal being. God is not bound by time any more than a book can bind us to a page.
If you are of the mind, look the verses up and read around them. If you are not, I thank you again for humoring us that are. Now back to your regularly scheduled show.
ZenRabbit
09-25-2015, 10:28
It's a miracle you didn't pop that air mattress with those keys, for sure :)
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
It's a miracle you didn't pop that air mattress with those keys, for sure :)
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Yeah, specially since I decided at the last minute not to bother with taking the duct tape along! :)
But, while I started this out just talking about small, everyday things you wouldn't necessarily think of as a "miracle" -- you'd probably just go "WHEW! -- that sure was strange, but glad it happened! -- and move on, some of these really make you think!:
Abatis story of the man in white, Kjbrown's story about getting that ride back to his car from over 30 miles away when he needed to get the dog to the vet, and PedalingFool's one about the knee landing in the moss instead of the rocks.
Who knows how this stuff happens....Someone said they're (at least the small ones) aren't miracles because G-d's too busy". I don't know if they're miracles, but if they aren't -- I doubt that's the reason. I wonder if it could be our loved ones who've passed away that are "looking out for us" down here! Could it have been my Dad watching out for me, or KJBrown's , I don't know, grandfather maybe that made sure that two parties' paths were going to cross? That's probably not it -- but I kinda like to think it is!
chiefduffy
09-25-2015, 13:03
The sole seperared on one hiking shoe coming down Roan Mtn. Duct tape got me to Mountain Harbor, where I was in the process of ending my longawaited sectionhike when the housekeeper overheard me. She said someone had abandoned a nice pairof shoes earlier. They fit perfectly, and were my go-to hiking shoes for years afterwards.
I don't believe in god or in miracles but I entertain myself by believing that some benign force has kept me safe and out of harm's way on my walks along the AT. So many things could go wrong, but mostly they don't. I pay respect to that benign force by blowing a kiss at a white blaze every now and then. It's silly, irrational, invites ridicule, but I do it anyway. I take nothing for granted, especially not my health and safety on the trail.
Einstein was reputed to have said than one has two options in life-- to live as if everything is a miracle, or as if nothing is.
BirdBrain
09-25-2015, 13:30
................. thinking better of it.
About 4 years ago my wife and I were doing a month long trip from Kent Ct. To Hanover N.H. - At about the halfway point somewhere in Vermont my wife received a call that her mother was very ill and may not make it through the night. We did not see any hikers that day until a hiker was passing us ( nomad ) and he saw that my wife was crying and she explained why - Well long story short his car was parked at the next road crossing and he was going our way,.
Odd Man Out
09-25-2015, 14:19
I was hiking on Sinking Creek Mtn in VA. It was late afternoon and I was pretty beat up. The trail followed the ridge for several mile and then went down the mountain to the next shelter. I wasn't sure exactly how many more miles it was until the trail dropped off the ridge, but I suspected that camping opportunities from that point until the shelter would be limited. I felt like I had time to put in a few more miles, but i didn't want to get to a point where it was getting dark and I was in a spot with no places to pitch a tent. On the ridge there was one little spot in among the rocks that was just barely big enough to pitch my tent. I considered stopping there but thought also considered going a bit further hoping for a better camping spot. But as I didn't know the terrain, I figured the rocks could get worse rather than better until the trail dropped off the ridge. Plus my legs felt like rubber and more hiking would have been a real chore. I probably stood there for 5 or 10 minutes going over my options in my head and then a young couple comes up the trail. They look at me and asked "are you OK?". I must have really looked bad for them to ask. I explained my dilemma and while they were not going to tell me what to do, having someone else to talk to about it helped clarify my thinking. They hiked on and I camped in that spot and had the best campsite ever. I watched the sun set on one side of my tent and rise on the other. Plus I found out the next day, the shelter I was headed to had a torrential thunderstorm that evening which I could have hiked into. Up on the ridge I was high and dry and above the clouds in the valley below. It helped that I had anticipated the possible need to dry camp and had carried a couple extra liters of water. I won't get into the miracle/coincidence debate, but running into that couple was a fortuitous event, no doubt.
Harrison Bergeron
09-25-2015, 20:27
Miracles? I actually met an angel once!
When I was a kid I snuck out of the house one night. Me and my best friend had this dumb-ass plan to hitchhike to Oklahoma City to hang out in the "Paseo", which was the hippy community in OKC back in the 70's. The first night there we scored some acid. I had a very bad trip and 24 hours later I had become completely catatonic -- and my buddy and the guy we were staying with were getting worried. But in my mind, I had spent several billion years in Purgatory with no body, just endless regrets at having wasted my life. Then suddenly my body coalesced around me and I realized I was being carried through a door by two demons who greatly resembled the friends I'd dropped acid with a few billion years before -- only now they were demons carrying me off to Hell. They drug me down a long street as I begged them to please to not take me to Hell. Finally I threw them off and sat on the curb and prayed to God to please give me another chance and this time I would not screw it up. Then I heard a guy ask what was going on and I looked up. He was dressed all in white, with long brown hair and black horn-rim glasses. And the weirdest thing -- he was wearing an obviously fake plastic mustache. The other two guys told him that I'd flipped out on acid the day before and they were taking me to the hospital down the street. He told them he was an orderly walking home from work and that the worst thing we could do would be to take me to the Emergency room -- I'd wind up in jail or a psych ward. Instead he held out two yellow pills and said "take these instead". The instant they hit my tongue I was straight. But the guy dressed in the white hospital scrubs still had a glow around him and he still had that weird plastic mustache. Even my friends talked about the mustache later, so I know it wasn't a hallucination. We went back to the apartment and crashed. In the morning I felt brand new, the best I ever remember feeling. And two days later I was doing mescaline at a Led Zeppelin concert, because even God has a hard time competing with "cool" in the mind of a 16-year-old kid.
Maybe the biggest miracle is that I eventually learned that "cool" was just a synonym for "dumb-ass", and thereby managed to survive adolescence. But you'll never convince me that the orderly wasn't a bono fide angel. Why he chose a plastic mustache as the tip-off, I'll never know. But then I'll also never know why God bothered to save a dumb-ass like me in the first place. That's the real miracle.
Starchild
09-26-2015, 07:28
Yes I do believe in miracles, In the case of trail magic the act of kindness and the person in need is not random, but coordinated by God to meet the needs of the person. The giver is inspired to the time and location. It is one effort, anything done in love is coordinated directly by God and is God, God is indivisible.
Group hiker feeds (since that was also mentioned) gets human organizational structure involved, which gets in the way of the free flow of Love. Still it does let some love flow, but not as it could be if we just acted individually according to our hearts, as organizational structures block the free giving of the person to conform to organizational rules. But the organizational structures do allow a way to give when a person might not trust that they are capable of giving directly from their heart to that of another.
ironbutt
09-26-2015, 17:16
I believe in God and miracles......... One friday morning Oct.9th 2009 I was at landing strip pre flighting for a morning flight. I strapped in revved up and took off reached about 170 feet and hit a down draft that slamped me into the ground. Upon waking in the intensive care Sunday night. The nurse spoke to me and said "From what I hear God saved you for something in your future". Being drugged up all I could do was smile as I looked at her. It was later that I learned that I had suffered a L1 burst fracture, along with two other cracked vertebra. The doc told my wife that I would never walk again. I learned later that night when the surgeon arrived and doing a check with a ball point pen of not having any feeling until he worked his way up my body to touched my belly button.....
My wife told me that the firemen & resue squad that day were in full force a mile away doing a fireman's day event at a elementary school when the call went out of the crash..... Where I had crashed was not visible from the highway or did anyone live nearby...... A man on the way to work saw me taking off and stopped along the highway to watch, he saw me go down and called 911 and waited to direct fire-rescue to where I was....... The spine surgeon who operated on me was walking past the emergency room on the way to his car that friday morning when the rescue squad called the hospital. He stayed at the dispatch desk directing the rescue squad and was waiting when they reeled me into the room. He had started the process of lining up the MRI and have operating room on standby waiting for my arrival. My entire time I was dependant on God.
I believe as their were too many coincidences that came into play that day to be anything than God's working for my good. Not to mention everyone says I should have died from such a height in the crash. I am not as good as I was before the crash, I have some numbness in my left leg and toes but I don't take life for granted any more... I have always been religious and considered myself a christian although some would disagree. I know today I am a born again christian. I'm still trying to find my purpose ,but best of all I can walk and I intend to start from springer this spring...
Five Tango
09-26-2015, 18:09
I believe also and although I was spared injury in what could have been a very serious car crash the greatest miracle I have seen involved someone else.It was also an airplane crash.Two guys departed the local airport overloaded with fuel and gear on a hot day in a small Cessna 150.The pilot could not get sufficient airspeed to keep from making the classic "departure stall".The miracle was that the airplane impacted the ground upside down but the pilot and passenger were virtually unscathed because the cockpit and fuselage lay in the only spot in a ditch for miles around such that the inverted wings suspended them in the hollowed out ditch;thereby protecting them from injury.It was as if an invisible hand had laid the plane in the ditch upside down so that the passenger compartment would not be crushed.I will never forget that sight!
I don't believe in miracles, and I don't believe a supernatural being would help you find your keys, yet at the same time some ten year old with a full life ahead of her gets killed by a stray bullet from a thug firing into the air in a show of machismo, several blocks away. Because either they are both to be blamed on jesus/allah/god/vishnu/thor, or neither of them are.
The being said, I've experienced a few aha! moments on the trail myself. My most recent one was a poop story. I was on the foothills trail (which is also white blazed) in SC. It came to a point and sort of doubled back onto itself over a switchback, when by body suddenly decided it was time to void three days of camping fare. I was RIGHT AT the point of the trail where it turned. I took off in the woods through the pine barrens, and found the only large tree that I could, and did my thing. I headed back to the trail, and couldn't find it. I stumbled around, even went back to the tree and tried going downhill towards the trail (since it was a walk up to the tree). I resorted to the GPS but coverage wasn't great, and I wound up walking on the wrong path, back towards where I had come from. After a a few hundred yards I ran into the only other crowd I would see that day, which I had seen the night before at an adjacent camping area. The sight of them told me I was on the wrong path.
Several things happened: The previous times I've had the sudden urge to clean out Aisle #2, I usually just take the poop kit and leave the pack at the edge of the trail. This time I took the whole pack, which was good, because being lost in the woods with a poop kit and nothing else could be bad. The GPS was on and tracking me, even though I had done that section before. I would have eventually seen the trails divide again, but it would have been another half mile or so before the resolution was good enough for me to figure it out (trails on GPS units often don't match actual tracks on GPS units!), so running up on those two people saved me some time and headache. I seriously could not have chosen a worse place to go, I could have walked in any direction for like 330 degrees and not run into the trail all day.
I don't believe in miracles, and I don't believe a supernatural being would help you find your keys, yet at the same time some ten year old with a full life ahead of her gets killed by a stray bullet from a thug firing into the air in a show of machismo, several blocks away. Because either they are both to be blamed on jesus/allah/god/vishnu/thor, or neither of them are.
Well, I'm FAAAAARR from being a religious expert. But I think the answer to questions about why people do bad things (or, in your example -- stupid things that cause bad results -- ) , it comes back to free will. So, if you DID believe in miracles and a supernatural being, your argument would still be correct -- just in the different direction. I mean -- as you said, the SAME supernatural being that helped me find my keys -- that is helping ironbutt on his amazing journey -- is the same being that gave that idiot you mentioned that pulled that trigger the free will to do it.
I don't think comparing whatever intervened in my keys turning up -- or, better yet in Ironbutt's or Five Tango's stories -- to that tragedy of the idiot pulling the trigger is a good analogy. Because in finding the keys or especially Tango's story, there's no human making a decision.
In other words, I'm saying that the good "miracles" , "trail magic" -- whatever you call it -- might be indicative of "someone up there" looking out for us, while the bad is the result of that same power granting us all free will.
On the other hand, there are plenty of bad things NOT caused by free will, but rather natural things --- fires, floods, earthquakes...
well, Life is Complcated! :)
Einstein was reputed to have said than one has two options in life-- to live as if everything is a miracle, or as if nothing is.
Einstein almost certainly didn't say that according to this source. (https://web.archive.org/web/20150508070408/http://skepticaesoterica.com/debunking-fake-albert-einstein-quotes/)
The linked site goes on to say: Reichenstein asks Einstein about Arthur Liebert’s theory that uncertainty and indeterminism in quantum mechanics allows for the possibility of miracles. Einstein replied that he could not accept the argument because it dealt “with a domain in which lawful rationality does not exist..."
I don't believe God grants me a miracle to help me find my keys, or punishes me by making me lose my keys. I think both are up to me. :)
I don't believe God grants me a miracle to help me find my keys, or punishes me by making me lose my keys. I think both are up to me. :)
That assumes you have free will.
And if you do, is that not a miracle?
Miracles: mans attempt at rationalizing phenomenon for which he can't explain. Nope. All events are coincidental.
BirdBrain
09-27-2015, 21:17
This is likely to go south soon. It does not have to. Allow those that believe in an invisible friend to share in our joy and we will let you debate it with God when you see Him.
This is likely to go south soon. It does not have to. Allow those that believe in an invisible friend to share in our joy and we will let you debate it with God when you see Him.
Well said. For He boiled for our sins. For thine is the Pasta, the Sauce and the Meatballs, forever. Ra'men.
BirdBrain
09-27-2015, 21:51
Well said. For He boiled for our sins. For thine is the Pasta, the Sauce and the Meatballs, forever. Ra'men.
Don't forget the Cheese 'N Rice.
Well said. For He boiled for our sins. For thine is the Pasta, the Sauce and the Meatballs, forever. Ra'men.
I have a family member who listed Pastafarian as his religion upon admittance to the hospital recently. Learning something about the Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster was a hoot.
Miracles: mans attempt at rationalizing phenomenon for which he can't explain. Nope. All events are coincidental.
I think most events are caused by other events. You know, the 8 ball falls in the side pocket because of the way you hit the cue ball. Which is probably why those events that just seem to happen out of the blue, for no apparent reason sometime seem miraculous.
LittleRock
09-28-2015, 10:36
I don't claim to belong to any faith, but I still pray every time I end up walking along an exposed ridgeline in a thunderstorm.
Einstein almost certainly didn't say that according to this source. (https://web.archive.org/web/20150508070408/http://skepticaesoterica.com/debunking-fake-albert-einstein-quotes/)
The linked site goes on to say: Reichenstein asks Einstein about Arthur Liebert’s theory that uncertainty and indeterminism in quantum mechanics allows for the possibility of miracles. Einstein replied that he could not accept the argument because it dealt “with a domain in which lawful rationality does not exist..."
Well, at least we DO know that Einstein believed in God because of one of his famous quotes ... "God does not play dice" -- this was his response to the randomness introduced by quantum mechanics. Many other scientists said he was wrong -- "God DOES play dice". Of course there were some that said "God doesn't exist"....
Well, at least we DO know that Einstein believed in God because of one of his famous quotes ... "God does not play dice" -- this was his response to the randomness introduced by quantum mechanics. Many other scientists said he was wrong -- "God DOES play dice". Of course there were some that said "God doesn't exist"....
I don't think Einstein was religious in the traditional sense. Even non-believers use the word "god" for want of a better term, now and then.
His reference to god and dice I think was more to say, "No, there's probably a reason that happened -- even if we don't know it yet." He spent his life searching for reason.
BirdBrain
09-28-2015, 11:07
I am more of a Telsa man than an Einstein man. I will never grasp how people can be sucked in by Einstein's thought experiments. The bus and clock story is hilarious. It has no basis in logic. One might as well say that time stops at the speed of sound for a deaf person and by extension goes backwards when he exceeds it. Ya', I know. I am not one of the 14 people on the planet that is smart enough to grasp the Theory of Relativity. I would contend that I am not one of the 6 billion that has been duped by it.
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I am more of a Telsa man than an Einstein man. I will never grasp how people can be sucked in by Einstein's thought experiments. The bus and clock story is hilarious. It has no basis in logic. One might as well say that time stops at the speed of sound for a deaf person and by extension goes backwards when he exceeds it. Ya', I know. I am not one of the 14 people on the planet that is smart enough to grasp the Theory of Relativity. I would contend that I am not one of the 6 billion that has been duped by it.
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Sucked in by the theory of relativity? Dude, that's ignorant. Perhaps you're being facetious? Can you say Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Too "abstract" for you?
A thing does not cease to exist simply because you're unable to understand it.
BirdBrain
09-28-2015, 11:22
Sucked in by the theory of relativity? Dude, that's ignorant. Perhaps you're being facetious? Can you say Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Too "abstract" for you?
A thing does not cease to exist simply because you're unable to understand it.
I fully expected the push back. That is why I quoted Tesla. I stand with him. Not going to argue. I would suggest your last line is timely given the OP.
One parting thought. I was mainly referring to the time aspect of his theory. However, I would suggest that it is typical of modern scientists to throw huge numbers at things to resolve or define. You can't get much bigger than the constant squared. It is an immeasurable quantity and thus can't be argued against.
A thing does not cease to exist simply because you're unable to understand it.
I went to a lecture by Lisa Randall (string theory) some years ago. I concluded she was a true genius-- only partly because she expressed a love for hiking, climbing and the like.
It it is really cool to listen to someone who is clearly smarter than you by more than a little. With the true outliers, you sort of have to take it on fait that they are.
Odd Man Out
09-28-2015, 11:48
I fully expected the push back. That is why I quoted Tesla. I stand with him. Not going to argue. I would suggest your last line is timely given the OP.
One parting thought. I was mainly referring to the time aspect of his theory. However, I would suggest that it is typical of modern scientists to throw huge numbers at things to resolve or define. You can't get much bigger than the constant squared. It is an immeasurable quantity and thus can't be argued against.
Sorry BB. Einstein's relativity theories (as well as Quantum Mechanics) predict oodles of things that can be measured and tested. Although many of the predictions are very counter intuitive (even downright bizarre) and all have been confirmed by measurement and experimentation. The idea that a number can be too big to be argued against is just not a valid claim. Sometimes it has taken decades for the technology to be developed to test a prediction of GR or QM, but in every case, the prediction has been confirmed. Thus these theories are the foundations of modern physical science. It's a myth that only few people can understand these. Many thousands of people do and they have used this understanding to develop much of the technology we use every day.
I fully expected the push back. That is why I quoted Tesla. I stand with him. Not going to argue. I would suggest your last line is timely given the OP.
One parting thought. I was mainly referring to the time aspect of his theory. However, I would suggest that it is typical of modern scientists to throw huge numbers at things to resolve or define. You can't get much bigger than the constant squared. It is an immeasurable quantity and thus can't be argued against.
I wouldn't want to rely on a GPS that was built ignoring the time aspect of relativity. I thought about adding this also: "If we ever had to intercept an Iranian missile, I would hope whoever programmed that thing considered the time aspect of relativity also".
But -- I'm not so sure about that one. It sounds good -- but you might be able to knock it out just getting close to it, without having to be so precise.
So -- I'll skip the missile example --- I know the GPS one's good! :)
There is so-called General relativity, and Special relativity.
Special relativity is simple enough to be taught in freshman college courses for engineering students. Even 45 years ago. :) E=mc^2 is the classical expression of special relativity, as well as the Lorentz equations. Pretty simple stuff. E=mc^2 is what explains the energy released in nuclear reactions (both fission and fusion,) and basically says that energy and matter are "interchangeable" within the parameters of that equation. (A little bit of mass equals a whole lot of energy.) Einstein came up with Special relativity as a mathematical means of reconciling the equations of James Clerk Maxwell with those of Isaac Newton. He did that at age 21.
General relativity relates to space-time and gravitational effects on light. A whole lot more complicated! I've heard it said that there are really only a few people on earth that truly understand it. Even so, it has been proven several times over, leaving not one iota of doubt as to its truth or correctness. And here too is a cute story about Einstein and god...
At the conclusion of one of proofs of General relativity -- it was a major world-wide event, news media were involved -- Einstein was asked by a reporter, "What would you have thought if your theory were proved wrong?" To which Einstein replied, "I'd have been sorry for the dear lord, for the theory is correct."
BirdBrain
09-28-2015, 11:54
Mission accomplished. :D
The thread was already dead. Too many wanted to piss on our parade. I am likely considered an idiot or arrogant because I agree with arguably one of the most brilliant minds to exist. You can't get much more idiotic or arrogant than to proclaim that God Himself could not convince one that they are wrong. Einstein has had a long if time to consider that statement. The atheist will proclaim that that was witty rhetoric. That person will enjoy the same conflict someday when this wisp of an existence is gone.
Like I said. The thread was already ruined. Might as well blow it up. I will gladly play the fool if it distracts from laughing at my Lord and God.
Sorry BB. Einstein's relativity theories (as well as Quantum Mechanics) predict oodles of things that can be measured and tested. Although many of the predictions are very counter intuitive (even downright bizarre) and all have been confirmed by measurement and experimentation. The idea that a number can be too big to be argued against is just not a valid claim. Sometimes it has taken decades for the technology to be developed to test a prediction of GR or QM, but in every case, the prediction has been confirmed. Thus these theories are the foundations of modern physical science. It's a myth that only few people can understand these. Many thousands of people do and they have used this understanding to develop much of the technology we use every day.
+1. Quantum mechanics led directly to such things as... the invention of the transistor, and from there very quickly to integrated circuits. It also enables us to envision the shape of molecules and why various elements bond the way they do, ie. the entire field of Physical Chemistry.
Pedaling Fool
09-28-2015, 12:12
I am more of a Telsa man than an Einstein man. I will never grasp how people can be sucked in by Einstein's thought experiments. The bus and clock story is hilarious. It has no basis in logic. One might as well say that time stops at the speed of sound for a deaf person and by extension goes backwards when he exceeds it. Ya', I know. I am not one of the 14 people on the planet that is smart enough to grasp the Theory of Relativity. I would contend that I am not one of the 6 billion that has been duped by it.
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I have nothing against Tesla and won't comment on his comments without knowing exactly what he was addressing...The theory of Relativity is actually two separate theories, i.e. Special and General and they are both quite extensive. However, with that said, he changed our concept of space, time and gravity, among other things. Before Einstein basically everyone thought time was a constant, that alone is an incredible accomplishment to go against everything you've learned, as well as scientific consensus, not to mention common sense (time being a constant). Many, many experiments have proven much of Relativity correct and even for GPS unit to operate correctly must account for certain relativistic effects.
Probably, one of Tesla's reasons for going after Einstein is because Einstein was a Theoretical Physicist, whereas Tesla was more hands on, i.e. experimental, as well as an inventor -- not much difference between hikers and trail runners, i.e. just another example of group animosity. A bit of history between certain groups, such as Theoretical vs Experimental physicists. Engineers vs Scientists. and on and on.....
Personally, I don't like arguments of which is better, they both have their place in the world; it's silly to try and say/determine which is superior.
Tesla actually had some theoretical tendencies, so he better be careful for ranting about others, because he also had some far out ideas, that went bust. However, I won't criticize him, because I'm sure much of it will be reality one day. http://www.teslasociety.com/teslatower.htm
Thread ruined? Because we're talking about reality, rather than fantasy? LOL.
Not a great argument. Most believers would say that God isn't bound to space and time. It doesn't matter how many people need Him, when you call Him you don't get a busy signal.
Plus, he has the list of all the VINs (vehicle identification numbers) there ever were, so he can probably handle many sets of lost keys at once! :)
I went to a lecture by Lisa Randall (string theory) some years ago. I concluded she was a true genius-- only partly because she expressed a love for hiking, climbing and the like.
It it is really cool to listen to someone who is clearly smarter than you by more than a little. With the true outliers, you sort of have to take it on fait that they are.
I heard Buckminster Fuller speak back in the early 1970s. It was similarly "transformative." I was enthralled. Rapt. Mesmerized.
His talk was about maps, globes, the problem of representing the earth (a sphere) in two dimensions, and the distortions that arise from doing that. Net result is that most maps of the earth minimize ocean area, as "uninteresting."
But then he went on talk about how mastery of the oceans (the uninteresting part) was in fact one of the main drivers of human history.
Pedaling Fool
09-28-2015, 12:38
Mission accomplished. :D
The thread was already dead. Too many wanted to piss on our parade. I am likely considered an idiot or arrogant because I agree with arguably one of the most brilliant minds to exist. You can't get much more idiotic or arrogant than to proclaim that God Himself could not convince one that they are wrong. Einstein has had a long if time to consider that statement. The atheist will proclaim that that was witty rhetoric. That person will enjoy the same conflict someday when this wisp of an existence is gone.
Like I said. The thread was already ruined. Might as well blow it up. I will gladly play the fool if it distracts from laughing at my Lord and God.
You only breathed more life into it.
I don't know what the reality of reality is, but I'm confident that the bible is not the word of God, but that's not to say there is no god, that's too big of a question for me to answer...or anyone for that matter.
I do know there are some strange things that we are totally oblivious to.
I could write a lot about this subject, but I have a reputation to protect:D
Lone Wolf
09-28-2015, 12:39
Not a great argument. Most believers would say that God isn't bound to space and time. It doesn't matter how many people need Him, when you call Him you don't get a busy signal.
lotsa parents sitting bedside with a dying child with say otherwise
BirdBrain
09-28-2015, 12:45
Only a fool would expend so much energy pushing against an object that does not exist. Many a fool draws their last breath doing just that only to find that the object does exist. Immediately a new struggle commences. They quickly learn that they would have been better off studying the object rather than opposing it. Ya', I know, nice fairy tail. The rich man in Luke 16 is familiar with that fairy tale. I am not just sarcastic. I truly don't grasp the necessity of laughing at our weak minds. I never once felt the need to tell a child that Santa is not real. I truly don't grasp the energy expended shoving against an object that is not real or laughing at people that are not as smart as the atheist.
BirdBrain
09-28-2015, 12:47
You only breathed more life into it.
I don't know what the reality of reality is, but I'm confident that the bible is not the word of God, but that's not to say there is no god, that's too big of a question for me to answer...or anyone for that matter.
I do know there are some strange things that we are totally oblivious to.
I could write a lot about this subject, but I have a reputation to protect:D
You think too highly of yourself. Come over to the dark side. It is liberating to know and admit that you are not all that and a bag of chips.
FlyPaper
09-28-2015, 12:52
Well said. I think there must be a seed out doubt in the atheist mind. Otherwise why would an otherwise mature person resort to mocking and ridicule?
There is no conflict or contradiction between intellect, curiosity, a love of science, and a sense of awe and wonder Spirituality, if you want to call it that. It's in that sense (and that sense only) that I'll grant that Einstein was religious. He clearly valued the awe, the curiosity, the longing to know "fundamental" truths, and the frustration we feel as humans for never knowing enough.
I find far more magic in what science has discovered in these last few centuries (or decades) than in the uninformed ramblings of prophets from 2000 or 4000 years ago. Yes, on first glimpse it's hard to accept or internalize "big" numbers like 6.02 x 10^23 but that doesn't make them any less relevant.
e^(j*2*pi) = 1.
Now there's truth for ya.
Another Kevin
09-28-2015, 13:27
e^(j*2*pi) = 1.
Now there's truth for ya.
So, since 2*pi is a complete rotation in the complex plane, doing the Hokey Pokey and turning yourself around really is what it's all about?
To someone with that attitude, God is more awesome, not less, for choosing to bind himself to His own natural laws, for choosing to ordain that certain effects should inevitably follow their causes, for making so much of Nature accessible to Reason.
Rolls Kanardly
09-28-2015, 13:30
In the early seventies my mother and dad gave me a space blanket for a gift. Space blankets were just hitting the market at least in our area of Michigan. The blanket followed me to Indiana and then to Arizona Dec 1980 where it has been stored out of sight and out of mind. While sorting out all the possbile choices for cold camping I was walking thru REI and remembered that space blanket for the first time in 35 years. And then tearing apart my closet I could not find it thinking I must have gotten rid of it sometime in the past and did not remember doing so. Kinda of bummed me out.
The last few years my wife and I thinking about a retirement home got us in the "if it has not been used in a long time pass it on to someone who can use it". I got ready to get rid of a nylon tote bag and while checking the pockets found the space blanket in a side pocket. Not a miracle by any means but pretty cool to find something I thought was gone forever.
We won't say anything about "Duhh you getting so old dad you forget where you put stuff"
Rolls
BirdBrain
09-28-2015, 13:33
e^(j*2*pi) = 1.
That equation gives me warm fuzzies. It massages my OCD. Very "imaginative". However your usage of j instead of i begs a couple questions that would likely tip over many engineers (depending on the leaning). Is an electron negatively charged or positively charged? Or better yet, is there such thing as a negative force? No, I am not talking hole theory. You can guess what I think. Should I bash Franklin too or possibly those that cling to his error? :D
"Beauty is truth, truth beauty," – that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.
- Keats
There is no conflict or contradiction between intellect, curiosity, a love of science, and a sense of awe and wonder Spirituality, if you want to call it that. It's in that sense (and that sense only) that I'll grant that Einstein was religious. He clearly valued the awe, the curiosity, the longing to know "fundamental" truths, and the frustration we feel as humans for never knowing enough.
I've always been fascinated with Einstein. I'm not sure if he was religious at all -- if I think of "being religious" as having to do with the way you live your life. But I'm sure he believed in God -- and I think I agree with Rafe in that Einstein's God was not the traditional God. I think he believed in a creator, but not a God that was going to step in and interfere with the natural order of things.
But there's something contradictory about this. Because until Hubble came along and discovered that the universe was expanding in, what, 1929?, maybe?, Einstein, like everybody else, believed in a "steady state" universe -- one that always existed -- hence, not needing a creator.
Pedaling Fool
09-28-2015, 16:50
I've always been fascinated with Einstein. I'm not sure if he was religious at all -- if I think of "being religious" as having to do with the way you live your life. But I'm sure he believed in God -- and I think I agree with Rafe in that Einstein's God was not the traditional God. I think he believed in a creator, but not a God that was going to step in and interfere with the natural order of things.
But there's something contradictory about this. Because until Hubble came along and discovered that the universe was expanding in, what, 1929?, maybe?, Einstein, like everybody else, believed in a "steady state" universe -- one that always existed -- hence, not needing a creator.
Not only that, but Einstein's calculation in his theory of General Relativity had basically deemed a steady state of the universe to be impossible, just another scientific observation that later gave more credence to the theories of Einstein. BTW, this is also why he came up with the cosmological constant, to make it fit his presumption of a static universe.
But in the end, there are still many, many contradictory things out there, we are no where near understanding *****.
If everyone has one special story, here is mine-- post 24
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/8313-Strangest-day-on-the-trail/page2
It is what it is.
If everyone has one special story, here is mine-- post 24. I have shared it a lot over the years, so why not yet another time.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/8313-Strangest-day-on-the-trail/page2
It is what it is.
Sarcasm the elf
09-28-2015, 17:33
Can we PLEASE, just for once, have a thread discussion on this site without you guys drifting it into an argument about Einstein's theory of relativity? :eek:
Can we PLEASE, just for once, have a thread discussion on this site without you guys drifting it into an argument about Einstein's theory of relativity? :eek:
That would be a miracle.
If everyone has one special story, here is mine-- post 24. I have shared it a lot over the years, so why not yet another time.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/8313-Strangest-day-on-the-trail/page2
It is what it is.
Beautiful story RickB!!! Just wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing. I won't hop on a soap box or behind a pulpit, but I do know My Father very close and personally and that was just his kind of thing, there. If you believe, nothing can convince you otherwise. If you do not, and need someone to prove Him to you in order to believe, you never will, and as sad as that fate is... it is in the heart of beholder, not mine.
I heard it once said "I would rather live my whole life clinging to The Lord and allowing that belief to see me through all of my life and when I die, find out that I was wrong all those years and now I'm just dead, for what have I lost?, than to live my whole life like there is no chance there is a God that I could choose to love and live for, and when I die, find out I was wrong all those years and now I can't go back.
WingedMonkey
09-28-2015, 20:21
I won't hop on a soap box or behind a pulpit,
And yet you still did.
That equation gives me warm fuzzies. It massages my OCD. Very "imaginative".
Well, it combines two irrational numbers and one imaginary number, and produces the most perfect number.
Of course, AK, the Hokey Pokey is what it's all about. But I'm sure you already knew that.
BirdBrain
09-29-2015, 08:26
e^(j*2*pi) = 1
I am responsible for a few formulas over the years. I came up with a new one for solving for LCD or LCM while in 7th grade. I did not like the factoring. I found an easier way. The teacher blew a gasket on me. He lectured me on plagiarism. Then he assigned it an extra credit problem for the class. The class was to find a set of numbers that did not work in my formula or find the actual author. He then told me he was sending it to Bowdoin and his home college. I asked him what I would get if I was proven to be honest. He chuckled and said I would get 5 extra points on my year's grade. I ended up with a 105 for that class.
My wife teaches secondary education math and science classes. She bounces things off me every so often. She uses a formula I came up with for solving torque equations. It is easier that the standard trig methods. People like to make things tough. I like to make them easier.
While in college, one of my teachers developed a relationship with me. He was irritated at me at first. I had to know the whys of things. In the end he kept a file on me. When I graduated as valedictorian with a 4.0 and 98.5? average, he presented that file to me. It contained all the shortcut formulas that I derived during some of his classes. Most dealt with rotational motion and lateral stresses. None were unique or my own (except possibly the torque equation). They were just more useful in my eyes. He saved one that was completely useless, but was his favorite. That formula was for solving for the side of an equilateral triangle when all you know is the distances to a point within the triangle. He posted the problem before class. He said he saw it online and that it was bugging him. I immediately recognized the distances of 5,12,13 as distances that would form a right triangle if drawn by themselves. He said that he was using Heron's formula to solve it, but was bogged down in the foiling. I told him he was taking the wrong approach and that the distances of 5,12,13 could not be coincidental. While he discussed the area under the curve, I was distracted by his question. By the end of the class, I had the framework for the solution. Over the next 2 days, I presented him the following 2 sheets. But first the formula. It is not as irrational, imaginary, or as perfect as the one you posted. It does serve a purpose.
~
I can see that I am going to have to edit this. The picture is not loading. Patience. I will edit after I post.
Edit: I see the thumbnails at the bottom. Close enough. Moving on. See you on the trail.
I redacted some personal information from the sheets.
~
~
What is my point. I have a couple. Many people are quite gifted at being able to learn and repeat what others have discovered or invented. I have to know why. Along the way, I ask questions like is this actually true. I do not enjoy pissing contests. I do not like clicks. I have learned that some of the most brilliant people do not have degrees and some of the most decorated people are idiots. Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory is a prime example of that person. I have met people that did not make it past 6th grade that were smarter than people like him. However, all of this pales to the fact that I get bored easily. I came to this site to learn. There have been so many aha moments. There are so many bright people here... and there are many eggheads. Gleaning information is producing diminishing returns at this point. I am bored.
By the way, for those interested. The Bible declared that the stars were innumerable thousands of years before the scientists got on board. It declared that the earth was a ball in space "hung on nothing" long before the scientists got on board. One should read the ramblings of the prophets before they make judgements on them.
I'm not religious and feel that blindly following any of the three big religions is utter foolishness. With that said, the trail does provide.
GF and I just finished hiking Katahdin, up Hunt trail and down Saddle. We are tired, it rained most of the day and we are talking to a ranger at Roaring Brook when one of the last two cars pulled out of the visitor parking lot. At that point we had resigned ourselves to walking the 18 miles back to KSC. We walked about a mile out of RoRing Brook when a car stopped from North Carolina, with a retired couple and asked if we needed a ride since they were going to Millinocket. We gladly accepted and was happy just to be dropped off at Togue Pond gatehouse. They took us all the way back to KSC and dropped us off. Our first trail magic.
GF and I were were hiking the Grafton Notch Loop trail and were just about a mile from our car at Grafton Notch. A young couple passed us, the girl was very attractive with a tiny little daypack. The guy was carrying a huge pack and looked like he was suffering, as he should be, carrying such a burden. We chatted for a second and he mentioned that they were almost done and started the loop trail the day before. They hiked off and my GF and I jokingly commented on how that was how a princess should be treated.
We finished our hike and left the the parking lot and we see the pretty Princess sitting on the opposite side of the road with the giant boyfriend's pack. We waved and drive on by, south on RT 26. We saw the boyfriend walking down the road headed south and stopped and asked if he wanted a ride. He said he was just parked down the road at the other parking lot at the Grafton Notch Loop trail. I explained to him that t was still 9 more miles and to get in, we'll give him a ride. He thought it was a loop, with the start and stop at the same place. He was puzzled why he got off the trail at a different parking lot.
I don't believe I was an agent of a mysterious other creature. I just saw someone with a need and I helped out. Is that trail magic? I don't know.
Enough with Einstein and the formulas, then. My little story.
Many moons ago, I was looking to hike the short AT section between Glencliff and Etna, NH. I dropped my pack in the woods near Glencliff. Drove back south, parked near the Dartmouth SkiWay and rode my bike back in the direction of Glencliff -- over miles of remote logging/ATV roads, on a cloudy day, without much in the way of map, compass, food, water, spares or survival gear and long before my first cell phone. I think about all the things that could have gone wrong but didn't, on all my AT adventures, and I think sometimes it's a "miracle" that I survived them all.
By the way, when people talk about lack of solitude on the AT... I met not a single soul on the trail, on this hike.
... The Bible... declared that the earth was a ball in space "hung on nothing" long before the scientists got on board...
That quote seems to be a considerable improvement on this passage: He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
And yet you still did.
Well it was a short sermon, at least! :p
Another Kevin
09-29-2015, 21:16
That equation gives me warm fuzzies. It massages my OCD. Very "imaginative". However your usage of j instead of i begs a couple questions that would likely tip over many engineers (depending on the leaning). Is an electron negatively charged or positively charged? Or better yet, is there such thing as a negative force? No, I am not talking hole theory. You can guess what I think. Should I bash Franklin too or possibly those that cling to his error? :D
Electrons are negatively charged by convention. j is -i (that's because we EE's like clocks that run clockwise). Negative force? Since force is a vector quantity, it can point in any direction. It can't have negative magnitude because that's just a positive force the opposite way.
I wonder if Einstein ever hiked the A.T.....
SORRY - JUST KIDDING!!!:D
Pedaling Fool
10-13-2015, 09:02
Some of you might be interested in the book: Strange Things in the Woods, written by Steve Stockton. http://www.amazon.com/STRANGE-THINGS-WOODS-Collection-Encounters-ebook/dp/B00GPEJ9NE
Here he's talking about the book and many of the stories center around GSMNP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGvJyYTTuBU
rocketsocks
10-13-2015, 09:29
I still get such a tickle from fiddlin' with two magnets...amazing!
Five Tango
10-13-2015, 13:37
I think it was a miracle that Dutch was not killed and/or nobody else was injured when a huge tree from which he was hanging at a big hanging event recently uprooted and fell.It's on hammockforums.net if you care to look.Truly a miracle that everyone was spared.The way I understand it,he was actually at the tree hunkered down in the storm when it toppled.Later he pulled his stakes out of the ground at eye level.
Another Kevin
10-13-2015, 15:25
"Don't believe in miracles. Depend on them." - Lawrence J Peter
AllenIsbell
10-13-2015, 18:28
No, but I go off the actual definition instead of a colloquial one. "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency."
Einstein was a deist. I would bet that if he were alive today, he would be an atheist.
I feel like having an internal locust of control makes the most sense.
Wonderful typo there, "locust of control." Hehe. :p
Five Tango
10-13-2015, 20:11
Locusts-now THAT is Biblical!
AllenIsbell
10-13-2015, 20:56
Lol not sure if you're joking, rafe.
It wasn't a typo!
AllenIsbell
10-13-2015, 20:58
Oh, LOL.
I didn't see that "t."
Thank you, auto-correct. I now officially feel like an idiot.
:P
Did you guys hear this story that made the news the last week or two about these two sisters from ....vietnam? maybe or Korea (sorry, don't remember the exact details) but they were separated as young girls...Fast forward about 30 or 40 years, and these two coworkers somewhere in Florida became friends - and then realize they are these sisters!
I think that story qualifies, if anything doez!
Hot Flash
10-18-2015, 14:43
Are they miracles? maybe...?
No. There is no such thing as a miracle.
Pedaling Fool
05-28-2016, 15:25
Can we PLEASE, just for once, have a thread discussion on this site without you guys drifting it into an argument about Einstein's theory of relativity? :eek:No:)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2016/05/27/why-does-emc2/#42ac8d90799f
I need a miracle every day -- Bob Weir. :)
Ok, here's one.
So, due to some poor planning last fall, it got to be too late in the year for me to follow my original plan of a 3 day section on the Tahoe Rim Trail. I'm an experienced day-hiker, but this was to be my first multi-day backpacking trip.
I thought about an alternative, I decided on the southern section of the PCT. Now, instead of a 20 mile hike around a lake, I was looking at a 109 mile hike in the desert. Again, my first backpacking adventure, and I'm hiking alone.
When I got to the Southern Terminus - and couldn't figure out where to go from there! It was about 4 in the afternoon, I'm all alone with a 50 pound pack, on the Mexican border, several hundred miles from home.
I wound up getting a ride to the Morena campground. I was VERY frustrated; and upset with myself, as I had already cut 20 miles off my hike. But I was also VERY nervous, wondering what the hell I was doing.
But - at the campground, there was one other hiker there. This fellow was an experienced hiker, and he and I wound up doing the section together. This was off season for hikers starting the PCT, so there weren't many folks out there.
So, getting lost turned out to be a blessing in disguise. Otherwise, I wouldn't have gotten a ride to the campground, and by the time I got there, Josh would have been gone. it was a much better feeling having a hiking buddy for that trip!
bstiffler
06-01-2016, 06:13
Not sure if this qualifies as trail magic but this happened earlier this month when I did a section from amicalola to Unicoi. I usually carry a platypus to get extra water when I get to camp so I can just top off my water bottles in the morning and not have to filter then. I was a hawk mountain shelter and got distracted and left it laying on the picnic table. I heard a couple days later a guy had lost a water bottle, walked into hawk mountain, and found my platypus laying on the picnic table waiting for him.
doingtime
06-01-2016, 06:37
Do you believe in miracles?
No.
Random things happen that can be seen as miracles.
Random things happen that are tragic.
Both happen everyday, everywhere, and are completely random.
Humans feel a need to quantify these random events as if something or someone is watching over them. Absolute lunacy IMO, but whatever helps you sleep at night I guess....
AllenIsbell
06-01-2016, 22:06
Ok, here's one.
So, due to some poor planning last fall, it got to be too late in the year for me to follow my original plan of a 3 day section on the Tahoe Rim Trail. I'm an experienced day-hiker, but this was to be my first multi-day backpacking trip.
I thought about an alternative, I decided on the southern section of the PCT. Now, instead of a 20 mile hike around a lake, I was looking at a 109 mile hike in the desert. Again, my first backpacking adventure, and I'm hiking alone.
When I got to the Southern Terminus - and couldn't figure out where to go from there! It was about 4 in the afternoon, I'm all alone with a 50 pound pack, on the Mexican border, several hundred miles from home.
I wound up getting a ride to the Morena campground. I was VERY frustrated; and upset with myself, as I had already cut 20 miles off my hike. But I was also VERY nervous, wondering what the hell I was doing.
But - at the campground, there was one other hiker there. This fellow was an experienced hiker, and he and I wound up doing the section together. This was off season for hikers starting the PCT, so there weren't many folks out there.
So, getting lost turned out to be a blessing in disguise. Otherwise, I wouldn't have gotten a ride to the campground, and by the time I got there, Josh would have been gone. it was a much better feeling having a hiking buddy for that trip!
I didn't see any miracle here. I don't see anything magical about getting lost and finding a way out. If you were to get lost, and a GPS magically appeared in your hands that guided you to a known location, however, then you could be on to something. But even then, you could be hallucinating from exhaustion or panic and forgot about the GPS you were holding.
Not sure if this qualifies as trail magic but this happened earlier this month when I did a section from amicalola to Unicoi. I usually carry a platypus to get extra water when I get to camp so I can just top off my water bottles in the morning and not have to filter then. I was a hawk mountain shelter and got distracted and left it laying on the picnic table. I heard a couple days later a guy had lost a water bottle, walked into hawk mountain, and found my platypus laying on the picnic table waiting for him.
Miracle? No. Trail magic? I guess it could seem that way to the person that found your platypus. You simply forgot something and someone else in need of that something found it.
Do you believe in miracles?
No.
Random things happen that can be seen as miracles.
Random things happen that are tragic.
Both happen everyday, everywhere, and are completely random.
Humans feel a need to quantify these random events as if something or someone is watching over them. Absolute lunacy IMO, but whatever helps you sleep at night I guess....
Exactly. Most miracles I hear of these days are simply Sharpshooter Fallacies. Basically, folks count the hits and dismiss the misses. IE: I pick up my phone to call you, and you picked up the phone to call me... at the same time. To me, it's just coincidence. To some, it's magic.
Ok, here's one.
So, due to some poor planning last fall, it got to be too late in the year for me to follow my original plan of a 3 day section on the Tahoe Rim Trail. I'm an experienced day-hiker, but this was to be my first multi-day backpacking trip.
I thought about an alternative, I decided on the southern section of the PCT. Now, instead of a 20 mile hike around a lake, I was looking at a 109 mile hike in the desert. Again, my first backpacking adventure, and I'm hiking alone.
When I got to the Southern Terminus - and couldn't figure out where to go from there! It was about 4 in the afternoon, I'm all alone with a 50 pound pack, on the Mexican border, several hundred miles from home.
I wound up getting a ride to the Morena campground. I was VERY frustrated; and upset with myself, as I had already cut 20 miles off my hike. But I was also VERY nervous, wondering what the hell I was doing.
But - at the campground, there was one other hiker there. This fellow was an experienced hiker, and he and I wound up doing the section together. This was off season for hikers starting the PCT, so there weren't many folks out there.
So, getting lost turned out to be a blessing in disguise. Otherwise, I wouldn't have gotten a ride to the campground, and by the time I got there, Josh would have been gone. it was a much better feeling having a hiking buddy for that trip!
I didn't see any miracle here. I don't see anything magical about getting lost and finding a way out. If you were to get lost, and a GPS magically appeared in your hands that guided you to a known location, however, then you could be on to something. But even then, you could be hallucinating from exhaustion or panic and forgot about the GPS you were holding.
It wasn't the getting lost and finding the way out. It was an inexperienced, new backpacker, alone, 600 miles from home, 109 miles from his car, out in the middle of nowhere, hiking off-season (meaning very few hikers out there) with a 6 or 8 mile per day comfort level and having set out on a 109 mile journey ( so maybe 20 days) when he had only been out on a couple of 1 night out and back trips before. This is the California desert, so he's worried about water. He's 69 years old - he's worried about his knees. He's just -- WORRIED! And then - events come together so that, on the first night he finds an experienced 35 year old backpacker and they wind up doing those 18 or 20 days together. Now,, who knows - that old dude might have made it on his own, but it was a real comfort having that hiking bud.
And it was a positive for the young guy also. He was out there because of some problems, and it was good for him to find someone to talk with, so he also wasn't alone out there.
It wasn't just an "I called you and you called me" kind of councidence. It's something with a real, positive outcome. It brought him what he needed when he needed it.
Yes, for circumstances that lead to positive outcomes, there are those thar lead to negative outcomes also. But those don't come under the "miracle" category.
I don't believe in god or in miracles but I entertain myself by believing that some benign force has kept me safe and out of harm's way on my walks along the AT. So many things could go wrong, but mostly they don't. I pay respect to that benign force by blowing a kiss at a white blaze every now and then. It's silly, irrational, invites ridicule, but I do it anyway. I take nothing for granted, especially not my health and safety on the trail.
Thanks for the new oxymoron!
I am a believer. A follower of Christ (to the best of my ability most days). I believe in miracles. HOWEVER...
I get kinda weirded out when fellow believers attribute positive things that happen to them as proof of God in action, but don't give God credit for the unpleasant or negative things that happen. Think of it like this: Your two year old kid is going to cry and be upset when you scream at them for running into the street. They don't understand that you just saved them from getting hit by the car coming down the road, they only know that you yelled at them. Who knows what God might be saving us from when "bad" things happen?
"God on the mountain is still God in the valley." - Lynda Randle
AllenIsbell
06-02-2016, 20:13
It wasn't the getting lost and finding the way out. It was an inexperienced, new backpacker, alone, 600 miles from home, 109 miles from his car, out in the middle of nowhere, hiking off-season (meaning very few hikers out there) with a 6 or 8 mile per day comfort level and having set out on a 109 mile journey ( so maybe 20 days) when he had only been out on a couple of 1 night out and back trips before. This is the California desert, so he's worried about water. He's 69 years old - he's worried about his knees. He's just -- WORRIED! And then - events come together so that, on the first night he finds an experienced 35 year old backpacker and they wind up doing those 18 or 20 days together. Now,, who knows - that old dude might have made it on his own, but it was a real comfort having that hiking bud.
And it was a positive for the young guy also. He was out there because of some problems, and it was good for him to find someone to talk with, so he also wasn't alone out there.
It wasn't just an "I called you and you called me" kind of councidence. It's something with a real, positive outcome. It brought him what he needed when he needed it.
Yes, for circumstances that lead to positive outcomes, there are those thar lead to negative outcomes also. But those don't come under the "miracle" category.
That is an awesome story, and I am happy that things tuened out well, however, more details of things that are easy to imagine still fail to make this story miraculous. Just so we are on the same page, I define a miracle as something that has happened that has no natural explaination and defies the laws of physics.
I get kinda weirded out when fellow believers attribute positive things that happen to them as proof of God in action, but don't give God credit for the unpleasant or negative things that happen.
Yep. That would be the sharpshooter fallacy that I mentioned. Unfortunately, this is also a form of Confirmation Bias.
It wasn't the getting lost and finding the way out. It was an inexperienced, new backpacker, alone, 600 miles from home, 109 miles from his car, out in the middle of nowhere, hiking off-season (meaning very few hikers out there) with a 6 or 8 mile per day comfort level and having set out on a 109 mile journey ( so maybe 20 days) when he had only been out on a couple of 1 night out and back trips before. This is the California desert, so he's worried about water. He's 69 years old - he's worried about his knees. He's just -- WORRIED! And then - events come together so that, on the first night he finds an experienced 35 year old backpacker and they wind up doing those 18 or 20 days together. Now,, who knows - that old dude might have made it on his own, but it was a real comfort having that hiking bud.
And it was a positive for the young guy also. He was out there because of some problems, and it was good for him to find someone to talk with, so he also wasn't alone out there.
It wasn't just an "I called you and you called me" kind of councidence. It's something with a real, positive outcome. It brought him what he needed when he needed it.
Yes, for circumstances that lead to positive outcomes, there are those thar lead to negative outcomes also. But those don't come under the "miracle" category.
That is an awesome story, and I am happy that things tuened out well, however, more details of things that are easy to imagine still fail to make this story miraculous. Just so we are on the same page, I define a miracle as something that has happened that has no natural explaination and defies the laws of physics.
I get kinda weirded out when fellow believers attribute positive things that happen to them as proof of God in action, but don't give God credit for the unpleasant or negative things that happen.
Yep. That would be the sharpshooter fallacy that I mentioned. Unfortunately, this is also a form of Confirmation Bias.
Sharpshooter Fallacy? Confirmation Bias?...
You know, you're pretty sharp for 28 years old! 😊
rocketsocks
06-03-2016, 09:54
Can I get a witness!
greensleep
06-03-2016, 13:53
Can I get a witness!
Think it's time for Tom Lehrer's "Vatican rag"
SGTJones
06-04-2016, 10:04
Forgive me for linking to my blog, but I don't want to re write everything. Made a post a few days ago about trail magic of the more miraculous variety. http://www.thejourney.co/day-18-trail-magic/
I was hiking with Tyler, Melanie, and Julia and we came across a small cooler filled with hard cider. At first we thought there were three beers but then we found a fourth hiding at the bottom. Almost as if the universe manifested one more so that we could each have a bottle.
The much more interesting trail magic to me have been the chance encounters and fortuitous events, like getting a free rafting trip when I was thinking about water or meeting a professional photographer when I was feeling a need to improve my photography skills.
The really crazy thing is immediately after publishing that post I checked my email, and found that Veterans United home loans sent back an agreement to become the title sponsor for my hike, thereby covering all the expenses. And then two days later I got to meet a bald eagle and got a free ticket to Dollywood to ride roller coasters. I've been on the trail for less than a month and have constanly had these type of experiences . I attribute it to having an attitude open to new and unexpected events and on doing something that truly makes you feel alive and fills your heart with joy. I think the universe conspires to give you realagic when you're on the path of your heart. Okay that's the end of my hippy rant ��
CamelMan
06-04-2016, 10:25
I've been on the trail for less than a month and have constanly had these type of experiences . I attribute it to having an attitude open to new and unexpected events and on doing something that truly makes you feel alive and fills your heart with joy. I think the universe conspires to give you realagic when you're on the path of your heart.
Some of these stories aren't "miracles" but synchronicity. It happens all the time, I keep a list of them. A really good one is when I was on the Laurel Highlands Hiking Trail. I was at a campsite the night after a morning rain, and was trying to start a small fire. (I didn't need the fire, it was just entertainment.) There wasn't a lot of dry wood lying around, so it died on me twice. (I'm no caveman.) I decided that if third time's not the charm, I would give up and just crawl in my tent. Well, just as the third one died out and I was cursing it, I heard a tremendous crash, and a big piece of deadfall landed maybe 10' to my left. It was bone dry.
A few years later, I was smoking a cigarette outside of my apartment and thinking about this incident, and another one involving deadfall, when I was hit right in the middle of my head by a small falling crab apple.
These are coincidences, with no causal connection, but since they coincide with somebody's thoughts (or internal mental state), they are "synchronicity".
Some of these stories aren't "miracles" but synchronicity. It happens all the time, I keep a list of them. A really good one is when I was on the Laurel Highlands Hiking Trail. I was at a campsite the night after a morning rain, and was trying to start a small fire. (I didn't need the fire, it was just entertainment.) There wasn't a lot of dry wood lying around, so it died on me twice. (I'm no caveman.) I decided that if third time's not the charm, I would give up and just crawl in my tent. Well, just as the third one died out and I was cursing it, I heard a tremendous crash, and a big piece of deadfall landed maybe 10' to my left. It was bone dry.
A few years later, I was smoking a cigarette outside of my apartment and thinking about this incident, and another one involving deadfall, when I was hit right in the middle of my head by a small falling crab apple.
These are coincidences, with no causal connection, but since they coincide with somebody's thoughts (or internal mental state), they are "synchronicity".
Well, my question is, "Is there a cause for synchronicity"? What was it that put the idea in your mind to be on that trail, at that time, trying to build that fire? What caused you to think, "I'll give up if I don't get it this time" -- just at the perfect time? (If you had thought that 10 minutes earlier than you did, you might have been in the tent already, and have lost interest by the time of the deadfall)...
On the one hand, I like scientific explanations. But there's something -- I don't know --satisfying?, comfortable? , magical? -- about thinking that "somebody up there's looking out for me", when these things happen!
CamelMan
06-04-2016, 12:34
Well, my question is, "Is there a cause for synchronicity"?
They say the cause is seeing patterns where there aren't any. ;) But sometimes it's uncanny. I attribute it to "an unknown coherence" in the universe, but I have an interest in Neoplatonism so YMMV. There was something else associated with the event that could have been part of it (a double synchronicity?), telling me that chance meetings can be to my benefit, but I try not to read too much into it. Why I was on the trail, etc, would be too far removed in time and thought, from just a branch falling. (I was visiting my sister in the Pitt and happened to have the time to hike the trail.) Then I would be reading too much into it, IMO. I would only consider it actual, objective synchronicity if it was immediate or very close, like this was, with as little room for creative interpretation as possible.
Traveler
06-04-2016, 12:43
All this stuff is really due to a Shaman, dressed in furs, dancing and saying special words by a fire deep inside a cave somewhere in Pennsylvania. Slaying a small rodent, he is able to "see" you and create mischief or provide something he thinks you need. This explains both the good stuff that happens, and why you run across used TP about the time you really start enjoying the walk.
hmm. "known coherences", and "Neoplatonism"... I think I missed my stop!:-?
CamelMan
06-04-2016, 13:05
hmm. "known coherences", and "Neoplatonism"... I think I missed my stop!:-?
Ooops that was a typo, I meant 'unknown coherence'. Is that better? ;) Traveler has the most likely explanation though.
Ooops that was a typo, I meant 'unknown coherence'. Is that better? ;) Traveler has the most likely explanation though.
Uh, SURE! :sun
I'd have to study up, I'll admit. But I like the "unknown" aspect, anyway. Reminds me of my younger days, when I used to hang out in planetariums, and I just liked the "romance" of the evening sky rolling by. Once I took classes and got explanations, well, it kinda adds something -- but -- it also takes something away. (that probably doesn't make sense..Sorry!)
Some of these stories aren't "miracles" but synchronicity. It happens all the time, I keep a list of them. A really good one is when I was on the Laurel Highlands Hiking Trail. I was at a campsite the night after a morning rain, and was trying to start a small fire. (I didn't need the fire, it was just entertainment.) There wasn't a lot of dry wood lying around, so it died on me twice. (I'm no caveman.) I decided that if third time's not the charm, I would give up and just crawl in my tent. Well, just as the third one died out and I was cursing it, I heard a tremendous crash, and a big piece of deadfall landed maybe 10' to my left. It was bone dry.
A few years later, I was smoking a cigarette outside of my apartment and thinking about this incident, and another one involving deadfall, when I was hit right in the middle of my head by a small falling crab apple.
These are coincidences, with no causal connection, but since they coincide with somebody's thoughts (or internal mental state), they are "synchronicity".
By the way; You were probably hit in the head with that apple cause Somebody up there didn't like the fact that you were SMOKING THAT CIGARETTE!
CamelMan
06-04-2016, 13:24
By the way; You were probably hit in the head with that apple cause Somebody up there didn't like the fact that you were SMOKING THAT CIGARETTE!
Maybe so, but I don't believe there's anybody up there to hit me, so I prefer something unknown that brought the event and the thought together, by coincidence but springing from an underlying coherence in the universe. Other than that, I have no clue what it is, except that the coincidences are interesting. I don't have any real "beliefs", but it's interesting to think about these things.
In 2007 they disproved quantum realism (via Bell's Inequality), so who knows what this thing is that we're in? Maybe synchronicity is just a glitch in the simulation? The simulating computer ran low on entropy the same way you can exhaust /dev/random (the random number generating pseudodevice) in Linux, so two similar events were generated. ;)
It does make sense that it both brings something and takes it away (scientific explanation). :)
Maybe so, but I don't believe there's anybody up there to hit me, so I prefer something unknown that brought the event and the thought together, by coincidence but springing from an underlying coherence in the universe. Other than that, I have no clue what it is, except that the coincidences are interesting. I don't have any real "beliefs", but it's interesting to think about these things.
In 2007 they disproved quantum realism (via Bell's Inequality), so who knows what this thing is that we're in? Maybe synchronicity is just a glitch in the simulation? The simulating computer ran low on entropy the same way you can exhaust /dev/random (the random number generating pseudodevice) in Linux, so two similar events were generated. ;)
It does make sense that it both brings something and takes it away (scientific explanation). :)
Alright. Well, I have NO idea what you're talking about -- BUT -- I'm pretty sure it has NOTHING to do with the AT!~ :)
However, I did NOT know that anything having to do with Quantum had been disproved, but it makes me happy, because Einstein did not go along with it -- and I always thought Einstein would have the last laugh.
Of course, the story may not be over yet; Someone might come along 20 years from now and find some problem with Bell's Inequality...
yes, random number generators do not generate truly random numbers...Never have, never will...I don't think...:confused:
CamelMan
06-04-2016, 13:57
and I always thought Einstein would have the last laugh.
Well, I'm sorry to break it to you, but Einstein was wrong about being wrong. There is quantum entanglement (what he called "spooky action at a distance").
I'm not really a physics person beyond first-semester college physics (mechanics), but what it means to disprove "realism" is that the particles in the universe don't exist unless they're interacting with something else. Otherwise, there is nothing but energy and probability.
Actually, you can buy a peripheral true random-number generator that works on radioactive decay, which is truly random. Otherwise, you're right, a computer can only generate pseudorandom numbers. It somehow "harvests entropy" from when you move the mouse, etc, but I never knew how it actually does that.
I think we each possess a warped sense of reality, and of "miracles." A universe?! Ha! Says who?! Why not a pluraverse?! And how would any of us truly know?
"It's a miracle!" (If you believe it's a miracle, whatever "it" is {an act of a god, etc}, your belief is reality enough, making the miracle somewhat of a truth. In art, appearance is reality enough. Music can be better than it sounds!)
Are there miracles? Is there a God? Who knows! Is there an angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon? Who cares! Does it matter?
It's all good pabulum.
Well, I'm sorry to break it to you, but Einstein was wrong about being wrong. There is quantum entanglement (what he called "spooky action at a distance").
I'm not really a physics person beyond first-semester college physics (mechanics), but what it means to disprove "realism" is that the particles in the universe don't exist unless they're interacting with something else. Otherwise, there is nothing but energy and probability.
Actually, you can buy a peripheral true random-number generator that works on radioactive decay, which is truly random. Otherwise, you're right, a computer can only generate pseudorandom numbers. It somehow "harvests entropy" from when you move the mouse, etc, but I never knew how it actually does that.
I love talking this stuff -- and, I started to respond to this -- but, I think we're kinda "off trail" enough already! :)
rocketsocks
06-05-2016, 14:10
Hey check this miricle out. Tilt your head back and pretend you have a salt shaker in hand, open mouth and sprinkle it on your tounge...it really taste like salt, try it! It really works, cool stuff.
rocketsocks
06-06-2016, 12:58
...in additions
Entrepreneurs developed a fork that is battery operated, when used it gives a micro voltage which excites the taste receptors to sense the flavor of salt, now that's impressive and has some health benefits.
Well, here's one. The USA put a man on the moon in 1969. And just 15 years later -- 1984 -- our technology had so vastly improved that we then invented a stamp that you don't have to lick!
greenmtnboy
06-06-2016, 14:25
What if the illusions of good luck, things that show up unexpectedly are not what they appear. The derivation of the word "luck" is Lucifer. So what may seem to be good or lucky may be the opposite in the larger or high minded scheme of things. I know that positive thinking has become like an obligatory part of group think but I don't buy it, especially since much of positive thinking is negative thinking in reverse or worse. The wheel of good fortune inevitably goes into retrograde....http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113758696
I am a believer. A follower of Christ (to the best of my ability most days). I believe in miracles. HOWEVER...
I get kinda weirded out when fellow believers attribute positive things that happen to them as proof of God in action, but don't give God credit for the unpleasant or negative things that happen. Think of it like this: Your two year old kid is going to cry and be upset when you scream at them for running into the street. They don't understand that you just saved them from getting hit by the car coming down the road, they only know that you yelled at them. Who knows what God might be saving us from when "bad" things happen?
"God on the mountain is still God in the valley." - Lynda Randle
+1 ^^^^^^^^
AllenIsbell
06-08-2016, 17:56
I think that it is wise to follow the evidence to the conclusion instead of inventing a conclusion when there isn't yet an explanation. I like to take the Occam's Razor approach...
Otherwise, you may be creating a bigger mystery than the one you are trying to explain which would only provoke more questions.
What if the illusions of good luck, things that show up unexpectedly are not what they appear. The derivation of the word "luck" is Lucifer. So what may seem to be good or lucky may be the opposite in the larger or high minded scheme of things. I know that positive thinking has become like an obligatory part of group think but I don't buy it, especially since much of positive thinking is negative thinking in reverse or worse. The wheel of good fortune inevitably goes into retrograde....http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113758696
What about positive thinking do you find to be actually negative thinking? This is a new concept to me. Do you have any examples?
Traveler
06-08-2016, 19:52
Opportunity + preparedness = luck
greenmtnboy
06-09-2016, 18:49
I think that it is wise to follow the evidence to the conclusion instead of inventing a conclusion when there isn't yet an explanation. I like to take the Occam's Razor approach...
Otherwise, you may be creating a bigger mystery than the one you are trying to explain which would only provoke more questions.
What about positive thinking do you find to be actually negative thinking? This is a new concept to me. Do you have any examples?
https://books.google.com/books?id=NE20yYkUZZkC&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=positive+thinking+negative+thinking+in+disguise +roy+masters&source=bl&ots=WlMXL3AJvH&sig=3rVvWyMCfxVjp2FuLL1qtReRIZM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjnNC0gZzNAhWITCYKHa_YCjgQ6AEIHDAA#v=on epage&q=positive%20thinking%20negative%20thinking%20in%2 0disguise%20roy%20masters&f=false
AllenIsbell
06-09-2016, 19:20
That is an assertion. I'm seeking examples.
greenmtnboy
06-10-2016, 08:44
You look at the biggest positive thinking advocates like the prosperity preachers on TV, the pollyannish people in popular culture or that you know and you see massive denial over reality. They only want happy thoughts when the reality will not support dishonest assessment of what is going on. If someone has money there is no shortage of sycophants and positive voices supporting the most unethical conduct.
Example; an inevitable disaster is approaching and people are told that through positive thinking and prayer it will go away, be lessened or avoided. Natural disasters are inexorable, in many cases unavoidable. Like pain killers they turn off the natural signals which are healthy. In actuality percocet and oxycontin are extremely negative treatments for chronic and acute conditions. It the method is wrong the result is a negative one.
neg·a·tive
ˈneɡədiv/
adjective
1.
consisting in or characterized by the absence rather than the presence of distinguishing features.
2.
(of a person, attitude, or situation) not desirable or optimistic.
"the new tax was having a very negative effect on car sales"
synonyms:
pessimistic (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1ASUT_enUS682US682&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=623&q=define+pessimistic&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAh43-vZ3NAhVLLSYKHXRoCTYQ_SoIKzAA), defeatist (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1ASUT_enUS682US682&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=623&q=define+defeatist&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAh43-vZ3NAhVLLSYKHXRoCTYQ_SoILDAA), gloomy (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1ASUT_enUS682US682&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=623&q=define+gloomy&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAh43-vZ3NAhVLLSYKHXRoCTYQ_SoILTAA), cynical (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1ASUT_enUS682US682&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=623&q=define+cynical&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAh43-vZ3NAhVLLSYKHXRoCTYQ_SoILjAA), fatalistic, dismissive (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1ASUT_enUS682US682&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=623&q=define+dismissive&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAh43-vZ3NAhVLLSYKHXRoCTYQ_SoILzAA), antipathetic (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1ASUT_enUS682US682&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=623&q=define+antipathetic&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAh43-vZ3NAhVLLSYKHXRoCTYQ_SoIMDAA), critical (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1ASUT_enUS682US682&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=623&q=define+critical&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAh43-vZ3NAhVLLSYKHXRoCTYQ_SoIMTAA);More
noun
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-positive-thinking-be-negative/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/creativity-and-personal-mastery/201004/why-positive-thinking-is-bad-you
Traveler
06-10-2016, 10:17
Now thats the clearest, most succinct essay I have read on the subject. Color is indeed part of it, and #878787 is a lovely one.
CamelMan
06-11-2016, 11:27
You look at the biggest positive thinking advocates like the prosperity preachers on TV, the pollyannish people in popular culture or that you know and you see massive denial over reality. They only want happy thoughts when the reality will not support dishonest assessment of what is going on.
+1. Also check out pronoia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoia_(psychology)). I suppose it was originally tongue-in-cheek, but there are definitely people who refuse to face reality and try to form the opposite reaction in their minds. How can there be any change for the better (on any level) if the bad is pushed into the shadows, rather than realistically assessed and faced?
AllenIsbell
06-12-2016, 01:32
So "positive thinking" in this context is synonymous with lying to yourself or teaching others to lie to themselves.
"You got cancer? Don't you worry, now. GAWD is gonna look right down on you and RIP that cancer right out of your body. You just gotta believe." #canigetanamen
That's not my idea of positive thinking.
My idea of positive thinking is to examine an unfortunate situation, acknowledge the facts, weigh the options, and try to find the best way to overcome it.
not too many folks get real far in life without some bad experiences. And, they may choose to believe there is a conspiracy in place, responsible for some of the good. Especially, I suppose, if that good outcome is totally unexpected. If they had cancer - and the doc tells them one day, "the cancer's gone - I don't know why". Is there a natural explaination? Most likely - it may just not have been discovered yet.
But I don't think someone has to be blind to the negatives in life to come up with a rationale for the unexpected positives. in fact, the more one suffers negatives, the more he may appreciate the unexpected positives..
(but I don't really know; I've never studied this stuff ! ☺)
CamelMan
06-12-2016, 09:35
My idea of positive thinking is to examine an unfortunate situation, acknowledge the facts, weigh the options, and try to find the best way to overcome it.
That's a good attitude and not a parody (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ) of itself.
greenmtnboy
06-15-2016, 10:24
not too many folks get real far in life without some bad experiences. And, they may choose to believe there is a conspiracy in place, responsible for some of the good. Especially, I suppose, if that good outcome is totally unexpected. If they had cancer - and the doc tells them one day, "the cancer's gone - I don't know why". Is there a natural explaination? Most likely - it may just not have been discovered yet.
But I don't think someone has to be blind to the negatives in life to come up with a rationale for the unexpected positives. in fact, the more one suffers negatives, the more he may appreciate the unexpected positives..
(but I don't really know; I've never studied this stuff ! ☺)
The thing about cancer is that often the doctors are wrong and the patients need a second opinion....Also the slash and burn approach is giving way to immunotherapy. https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/06/bill-sardi/cant-afford-cure-cancer/
It is not that hard to cure in the earlier phases but people need to change their lifestyles if they contributed to it.
Capt. America
06-15-2016, 12:51
I believe things happen for a reason or no reason at all, Like 3 cans of cold beer sitting in the middle of the trail on a hot day is it magic, a miracle or just plain luck? Short story, On my 2015 NOBO thru hike attempt I made it to Atkins Va. I got a call telling me my 25 year old son needed emergency surgery to remove his gull bladder so I when home. The surgery was put off for three weeks and after the surgery my son was ok so I decided to go back on the trail. I had my pack packed to leave the following morning during that afternoon I started getting pains in my lower left side and had a hard time breathing and it kept getting worse. I thought I was having a heart attack I called my wife and she took me to Care first and they put me in an ambulance to the hospital. I had blood clots in my lungs. I know I would have died if I had to walk 50 feet let alone a few miles to get help if I were on the trail. I was heart broken I couldn't finish my hike but so thankful I lived to hike another day. Yes I believe in miracles, magic and just plain being lucky. I hope the miracles never stop they restore my faith that good things can happen at anytime.
AllenIsbell
06-16-2016, 01:32
Capt. America,
So finding cold beer in the middle of the trail on a hot day would be curious, but certainly not a supernatural event. Hot trails exist, cold beer exist, people who can purchase beer exist, and people who can purchase beer who also will hike on the trail exist. I don't see the leap to supernatural cause (if that is where you were going with that). Maybe some folks just wanted to be nice and surprise the next hiker with some cold beer. I actually stopped my group at Preacher's Rock just beyond Woody's Gap to set up camp one night. Sure enough, we found a cold 6 pack of Yuengling hiding behind a log right near an old fire pit. No one's mind was blown and without an idea as to how they could have gotten there.
It appears to be simply chance.
If out of no where cold cans of beer that I actually enjoy started popping into our hands...we might have to start asking some hard questions and examining the situation.
I don't see any correlation to supernatural events in your story where you unfortunately had to cancel your trip due to your ailment. People's bodies can fail at any time, and they do. You could drop dead or meet the love of your life at any given moment. Again, chance.
Luck, to me, is 100% illusionary. Some folks who are wise may appear to be lucky while some folks who are clumsy and lack self awareness may claim to be unlucky.
How are you defining faith?
rocketsocks
06-16-2016, 05:20
If ya have to look for the miricles in your life, you may have missed the biggest one of all. You exist in a very specific place and time, couples degrees this way or that-a-way, and we don't count any longer, the truth is mankind is really on borrowed time, it may take a few generation and maybe there'll be pockets of hangers on, but we're our own worst enemy.
oh yeah, good morning :sun have a great day!
If ya have to look for the miricles in your life, you may have missed the biggest one of all. You exist in a very specific place and time, couples degrees this way or that-a-way, and we don't count any longer, the truth is mankind is really on borrowed time, it may take a few generation and maybe there'll be pockets of hangers on, but we're our own worst enemy.
oh yeah, good morning :sun have a great day!
Yeppers, everyone is tree huggin' and spewing "save the planet" when in reality what they are saying without really understanding it is "save the human race". This planet will be just fine and will go on and prosper long after humans have become extinct. Most people don't realize that 99.9% of all the species of the world have already gone extinct, humans will have their extinction too. Invest accordingly...lol.
Yeppers, everyone is tree huggin' and spewing "save the planet" when in reality what they are saying without really understanding it is "save the human race". This planet will be just fine and will go on and prosper long after humans have become extinct. Most people don't realize that 99.9% of all the species of the world have already gone extinct, humans will have their extinction too. Invest accordingly...lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c
Capt. America,
I don't see any correlation to supernatural events in your story where you unfortunately had to cancel your trip due to your ailment. People's bodies can fail at any time, and they do. You could drop dead or meet the love of your life at any given moment. Again, chance.
He didn't cancel his trip due to his ailment. He cancelled it due to his son's ailment. And so, he came home to be with his son, and things turned out fine for his son.
And, because of that, when he had his own medical emergency, he was in civilization rather than out in the wilderness. ...
AllenIsbell
06-19-2016, 17:44
I misread. My apologies.
However, it still sounds like chance that worked out in his favor.
I misread. My apologies.
However, it still sounds like chance that worked out in his favor.
I agree. It's the timing of events that's a little uncanny. Like my story where I was out alone, and the right things happened at the right time, and I wound up with that hiking bud.
And there are other stories in this thread, similar in that respect ; something negative is going on, something unusual happens and you wind up with a positive outcome.
Sure, it goes the other way, too. You can be in a nightclub, having a good time, and some maniac comes in and kills 50 people. But, the thread was about miracles, and I think most folks associate a miracle with something good happening, even tho that may be inconsistent with the definition. ..
I was talking to God the other day and God said to me, "I haven't preformed any of the miracles people attribute to me. Hell, I didn't even set things in motion." I told God not to worry as mankind would blame and thank God anyways.
CamelMan
06-21-2016, 16:01
I think most folks associate a miracle with something good happening
Not necessarily... it could be a Festivus miracle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXO7BE0HVdc). :D
trichardson
07-17-2016, 01:52
Yes. #1 In October I was driving my '98 Geo Metro down the interstate and was stopped due to morning traffic. The semi behind me used me to stop. I woke up the next afternoon in SAMMC, the military level one trauma center (I'm not military). The hatchback part of my car was touching the back of my seat.... #2 Last summer my friends 12 year old niece was sent home from the hospital on hospice due to inoperable bone cancer, and complete liver failure due to Chemo. This past January she went for a checkup. Oncologist says to her mother, we need to do some tests. Brings in both parents for the test results and says the reason he needed to do the tests was because she "didn't look sick enough". The cancer was gone. The Liver was at greater than 95% function. The Oncologist had no explanation, just told them to take her home and enjoy their lives!
AllenIsbell
07-20-2016, 21:29
People survive wild car crashes every day.
People defeat cancer every day.
Meanwhile, people die from car crashes and cancer everyday.
Where's the miracle? A good/happy/fortunate outcome doesn't equate to a miracle to me.
illabelle
07-20-2016, 22:13
Yes. #1 In October I was driving my '98 Geo Metro down the interstate and was stopped due to morning traffic. The semi behind me used me to stop. I woke up the next afternoon in SAMMC, the military level one trauma center (I'm not military). The hatchback part of my car was touching the back of my seat.... #2 Last summer my friends 12 year old niece was sent home from the hospital on hospice due to inoperable bone cancer, and complete liver failure due to Chemo. This past January she went for a checkup. Oncologist says to her mother, we need to do some tests. Brings in both parents for the test results and says the reason he needed to do the tests was because she "didn't look sick enough". The cancer was gone. The Liver was at greater than 95% function. The Oncologist had no explanation, just told them to take her home and enjoy their lives!
Welcome to WhiteBlaze! Very nice first post. :)
cneill13
07-20-2016, 22:32
The real definition of a miracle is up to whomever it happened to.
But some of the stories I have read in this thread sound like true miracles to me.
Carl
AllenIsbell
07-27-2016, 20:47
The real definition of a miracle is up to whomever it happened to.
If a definition can't be agreed upon, then we can't even begin to have a conversation. Miracle, as defined in the Oxford Dictionary, is a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency. This is basically how I would define miracle.
But some of the stories I have read in this thread sound like true miracles to me.
Do any of these stories fall under that definition? Could any of them be only explained by saying "magic did it?" I haven't heard the first compelling story. What I have heard are stories where chance played out in someone's favor.
Carl
My response in red.