View Full Version : How a vegan Appalachian Trail record-breaker fueled up - Press Herald
WhiteBlaze
10-07-2015, 04:10
<table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="7" style="vertical-align:top;"><tr><td width="80" align="center" valign="top"><font style="font-size:85%;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><a href="http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&fd=R&ct2=us&usg=AFQjCNFJD7IJZAl5lxo-K1ZHNV6vjPIC2w&clid=c3a7d30bb8a4878e06b80cf16b898331&ei=ZdMUVuj3LumD8AH8v5DQDw&url=http://www.pressherald.com/2015/10/07/vegetarian-kitchen-how-a-vegan-appalachian-trail-record-breaker-fueled-up/"><img src="//t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRFKtgknahtw97eVr9sIIqXF6v8McObX klOqZATT2r-OMK8Fj565thrlylHCqx_R915BnSjbjY" alt="" border="1" width="80" height="80"><br><font size="-2">Press Herald</font></a></font></td><td valign="top" class="j"><font style="font-size:85%;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br><div style="padding-top:0.8em;"><img alt="" height="1" width="1"></div><div class="lh"><a href="http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&fd=R&ct2=us&usg=AFQjCNFJD7IJZAl5lxo-K1ZHNV6vjPIC2w&clid=c3a7d30bb8a4878e06b80cf16b898331&ei=ZdMUVuj3LumD8AH8v5DQDw&url=http://www.pressherald.com/2015/10/07/vegetarian-kitchen-how-a-vegan-appalachian-trail-record-breaker-fueled-up/"><b>How a vegan <b>Appalachian Trail</b> record-breaker fueled up</b></a><br><font size="-1"><b><font color="#6f6f6f">Press Herald</font></b></font><br><font size="-1">When ultramarathoner Scott Jurek reached Mount Katahdin in July and completed the <b>Appalachian Trail</b> in 46 days, eight hours and seven minutes, he not only beat the previous speed record by three hours, but he did so while eating all vegan food. Here in ...</font><br><font size="-1" class="p"></font><br><font class="p" size="-1"><a class="p" href="http://news.google.com/news/more?ncl=dNGQ7HpWDp-89lM&authuser=0&ned=us"><nobr><b></b></nobr></a></font></div></font></td></tr></table>
More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&fd=R&ct2=us&usg=AFQjCNFJD7IJZAl5lxo-K1ZHNV6vjPIC2w&clid=c3a7d30bb8a4878e06b80cf16b898331&ei=ZdMUVuj3LumD8AH8v5DQDw&url=http://www.pressherald.com/2015/10/07/vegetarian-kitchen-how-a-vegan-appalachian-trail-record-breaker-fueled-up/)
Whats the difference between a Vegan and a vegetarian ?
Whats the difference between a Vegan and a vegetarian ?
Not sure if that's a serious question? Do you guys not have Vegan in America?
Vegetarians still eat animal products like cheese, milk, honey, etc. Basically products from animals that don't result in their death, although some are cool with leather because it's a by-product of the meat industry. Vegans eat nothing from animals at all.
Often Vegetarians will eat eggs, which I find a bit weird, as the egg industry results in the death of any male chicks born in hatcheries.
Sarcasm the elf
10-08-2015, 09:14
Whats the difference between a Vegan and a vegetarian ?
Vegetarians don't eat meat.
Vegans don't eat meat and won't stop talking about it. :D
(If you wanted a real answer Pauly_J's reply above is correct.)
Traveler
10-08-2015, 09:24
[QUOTE=pauly_j;2010155]Not sure if that's a serious question? Do you guys not have Vegan in America?/QUOTE]
If one does not know the answer, the question is serious. How else is someone to learn something if they don't ask the question. The difference between vegans and vegetarians is nuanced to those who are not into that lifestyle.
As an aside, eating eggs does not result in the death of the chicken that lays the egg, which is why some vegetarians consume them.
Not sure if that's a serious question? Do you guys not have Vegan in America?
Vegetarians still eat animal products like cheese, milk, honey, etc. Basically products from animals that don't result in their death, although some are cool with leather because it's a by-product of the meat industry. Vegans eat nothing from animals at all.
Often Vegetarians will eat eggs, which I find a bit weird, as the egg industry results in the death of any male chicks born in hatcheries.
While lemon b's question was an honest question ,your question was sarcastic and made me feel in your mind you think inferior about America.
Casey & Gina
10-08-2015, 09:44
I consider myself to usually be vegan, though I like not being dogmatic. Everything I purchase at a store or restaurant is vegan. I will not turn down something with dairy if freely given, though I am loathe to purchase such things in the store when I have the choice not to as the dairy industry is pretty awful. I likewise don't overly stress about eggs, though I do strongly avoid them. If I am offered some free cookies and they may have some egg in them, I as often as not won't turn them down. I am a strict vegetarian, and will not knowingly eat anything with a meat product in it. That said, I am sure there are times that I have consumed something which unknowingly contained an animal broth or other minor ingredient, even times when - whether intentionally or accidentally - a waitress has incorrectly told me something on the menu has only vegan ingredients. However if I suspect there might be such an ingredient, and can't find a clear answer by asking or looking, I will turn it away. That all said, if I had the resources and ability to raise my own milk cow and/or chickens and knew intimately how well they were cared for and what would be their fate at the end of their producing life, then I would not be adverse to consuming dairy or eggs...
Some people extend vegan to mean not participating in any actions that involve violence to another living animal, and thus abstain from things like honey, leather, wool, down, etc. I am pretty opposite to that. My concern for the well-treatment of animals does not extend to insects, which I will readily swat if provoked, and I find good honey to be a valuable and wonderful substance. Yes, the bee industry has it's problems, but so does every fruit and vegetable industry, and personally I accept the downsides of these industries which I choose to be a consumer of. I am not a fan of many synthetic alternatives that simply do not endure or perform as well - I strongly prefer products made of leather, wool, and down whenever I have the choice between them and something lesser. These are products which could in theory be harvested without violence as well, though realistically I know that is not the case. While I readily identify the problem of modern industry across the board, by abstinence of animal products is limited to what I choose not to consume into my body.
Everyone is different and every vegan has their own personal interpretation of what that means for them. Some folks I work with from eastern European countries consider themselves "vegetarian" though they eat fish or chicken. Many who consider themselves vegans would say I'm not one. So it's a bit muddy.
illabelle
10-08-2015, 10:18
I'm a lifelong vegetarian of the ovo-lacto variety, meaning I grew up eating eggs and dairy. Until a few years ago, I had no intention of changing that. Now I lean pretty strongly vegan. Except for a very few instances, it's been years since I've bought cow milk, and possibly decades since I've drunk it. We have four "retired" hens. On average, we probably get two eggs a week, and I use them in baked goods. I sometimes buy eggs if I have a hankering. If we don't have any eggs on hand, we can go months without any. The hardest thing is cheese. There is no satisfactory vegan substitute for real cheese, so we mostly do without. Except when we're hiking. I love cheese on the trail. :)
colorado_rob
10-08-2015, 10:42
While lemon b's question was an honest question ,your question was sarcastic and made me feel in your mind you think inferior about America.I didn't get that feeling from pauly's post at all, eating habits and nomenclature are sometimes vastly different across the pond. I detected zero sarcasm. Just MHO.
In any case, I find it amazing that Veggies/Vegans can actually manage to get all the nutrients they want during ultra exercises... I can barely do so myself eating all the animal products I can stuff into my mouth. I tip my hat to those that can manage this w/o animal-based foods!
The Kisco Kid
10-08-2015, 10:51
If one does not know the answer, the question is serious. How else is someone to learn something if they don't ask the question.
Google it.
cycle003
10-08-2015, 10:58
It seems weird that this is news. It also doesn't seem like much of a feat if you are being supplied all the time.
Sorry, my question wasn't sarcastic. As someone who has never been to America I have no idea. I know you guys are really into your meat though. There are massive cultural divides and I was in no way making out that one was inferior. Veganism has gone from being somewhat obscure in the UK to there being several vegan restaurants in each city in the space of a decade or so. 10 years ago you had to ask at an eatery if food was vegetarian, now they are labelled thus on the menu.
Having been to places like South Africa, I've experienced cultures where people just don't get the idea of people not eating meat with every meal, never mind not at all.
cycle003
10-08-2015, 11:11
Having been to places like South Africa, I've experienced cultures where people just don't get the idea of people not eating meat with every meal, never mind not at all.
That's still the case in a lot of places in the US, especially in rural areas.
Sorry, my question wasn't sarcastic. As someone who has never been to America I have no idea. I know you guys are really into your meat though. There are massive cultural divides and I was in no way making out that one was inferior. Veganism has gone from being somewhat obscure in the UK to there being several vegan restaurants in each city in the space of a decade or so. 10 years ago you had to ask at an eatery if food was vegetarian, now they are labelled thus on the menu.
Having been to places like South Africa, I've experienced cultures where people just don't get the idea of people not eating meat with every meal, never mind not at all.
Thank you for clarification.I am susceptible to jumping the gun.
For a " meatiterian "like me the closest I could get to be a vegetarian is when I am on trails and consuming trail mix exclusively which after couple of days it ends up for me dreaming about meat eating all night long while I am asleep.
As a side, I stopped eating meat a couple of years back. I still have fish once a week or so but don't really pay attention to where I'm getting my protein, etc. It's really a lot easier than people think. I cycle 16 miles a day for work, run long distance races, and train Brazilian Jiu Jitsu 2 or 3 times a week, so my body goes through the ringer. I'll admit I felt pretty drained when I first gave up flesh but then I also felt drained when I gave up English tea. I feel fine now.
As someone who works in the construction industry in a primarily food-based company, I see every stage from farm to plate, and that's what put me off to be honest. I have no real issue with animals being hunted etc. (hence still being pretty cool with eating caught fish); my issue is more with animals being born into a miserable life of captivity and inevitable traumatic death.
People are sometimes very ignorant as to where their food comes from. They're happy not to know. In most cases, they don't want to know. I believe it was Paul McCartney who said "If Slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian."
I truly believe that in the not to distant future, people will look at the treatment and consumption of animals in a similar way that people look at prejudice and discrimination against people of different sexuality, race, gender, etc. We've come a huge way in a very short space of time in that respect.
Vegetarians don't eat meat.
Vegans don't eat meat and won't stop talking about it. :D
(If you wanted a real answer Pauly_J's reply above is correct.)
Don't be a jerk, dude. I've been vegetarian most of my life and have never told anyone how to eat.
Traveler
10-08-2015, 11:53
I didn't get that feeling from pauly's post at all, eating habits and nomenclature are sometimes vastly different across the pond. I detected zero sarcasm. Just MHO.
In any case, I find it amazing that Veggies/Vegans can actually manage to get all the nutrients they want during ultra exercises... I can barely do so myself eating all the animal products I can stuff into my mouth. I tip my hat to those that can manage this w/o animal-based foods!
I know several people at various places in the vegetarianism spectrum and I too did not think they could get all the nutrients from a non-meat diet. Surprisingly they get most all the nutrients they need from food and supplements, much like those who have meats in their diets.
Traveler
10-08-2015, 11:55
If one does not know the answer, the question is serious. How else is someone to learn something if they don't ask the question.
Google it.
Even google requires the question be posed to find an answer.
Casey & Gina
10-08-2015, 12:06
As a side, I stopped eating meat a couple of years back. I still have fish once a week or so but don't really pay attention to where I'm getting my protein, etc. It's really a lot easier than people think.
It still humors me whenever I hear someone (such as my aforementioned European coworkers) think of fish as not being meat. Just a cultural difference in the meaning of the word I suppose. In America "meat" generally refers to any and all types of animal flesh. It is pretty funny that there is so much concern about protein and nutrition in general - most vegetarians eat more protein than their omnivorous peers without thinking about it, and generally get a lot more nutrients in their daily meals. There are exceptions of course, as it's possible to be unhealthy on any diet. A lot of people just don't realize this, which is why vegans tend to turn heads when they pull something off (despite it being not at all uncommon these days). Awareness is increasing dramatically these days thanks in large part to the Internet.
As someone who works in the construction industry in a primarily food-based company, I see every stage from farm to plate, and that's what put me off to be honest. I have no real issue with animals being hunted etc. (hence still being pretty cool with eating caught fish); my issue is more with animals being born into a miserable life of captivity and inevitable traumatic death.
I have the same perspective, though not the work experience. I respect hunting and fishing, though I would personally only choose to do it if enough alternative food were not available - I believe this is more of a concern the colder the climate where you live. In my ideal world, everyone would be pretty close to self-sufficient for their food needs with limited, localized trade. Easier dreamt about than done, though. :) That said hunting and fishing need to be kept in check - we have exhausted so much of the natural fish and game resources that were once available. Many, including my mother, have the mindset that "it's not a meal unless there's a big portion of meat", and that puts a heavy load on the ecosystem.
You don't have to be from PETA to know that the food industry, and especially the meat/livestock industry is doing our bodies and our planet no good. I still enjoy meat now and then but by no means daily. I think on average, one meal per week (though there might be leftovers...)
Plenty of other tasty ways to get your protein. Starting with peanut butter. Yum.
If I had to kill my own meat, I'd be a vegetarian for sure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food,_Inc.
I work with a Jain, whose diet is more circumscribed than a Vegan. He won't even eat plants if it results in the death of the plant.
They eat nuts, and the fruits and vegetables that grow on plants (which if left alone would wither and "die" on their own), but not tubers like potatoes and carrots, no mushrooms, and nothing fermented. He can eat milk and milk products, but not yogurt (to avoid eating/killing the live cultures). Although, some Jains will also not eat milk products. There are a large number of other restrictions - like no leftovers, as they will have more microscopic organisms growing on them. Water has to be filtered, same reason.
we have exhausted so much of the natural fish and game resources that were once available.
There are many that we have not exhausted, through management efforts. There are some game resources that are overpopulated - like whitetail deer. Since we wiped out their predators in the eastern half of the US, their numbers are huge is many areas. Without managed hunting, we would have cycles of severe overpopulation, followed by mass starvation.
Same holds true for a lot of other fish and game resources. For some, the management of the resource (ie, salmon, cod, lobster) has had ups and downs, but has been getting better as we learn better how to manage them.
Sarcasm the elf
10-08-2015, 13:19
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by raptelan http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png
(http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/showthread.php?p=2010217#post2010217)we have exhausted so much of the natural fish and game resources that were once available.
Keep in mind that in the US, it is habitat loss, not hunting that is threatening our wildlife.
Hunting is already heavily regulated in terms of what species you are allowed to hunt and fish for and how many you are allowed to take. States review and update their game laws regularly and often change bag limits or put moratoriums on certain game animals depending on their populations (this is especiallly common with fishing limits). Also keep in mind that in the US the single largest source of conservation funding is the tax levied on hunting and fishing equipment through the Pittman Robertson act which specifies that the tax revenue is used for the conservation of all species and habitat (the bill does not give preference to the conservation of game species over other animals.)
WingedMonkey
10-08-2015, 13:49
[QUOTE=pauly_j;2010155]As an aside, eating eggs does not result in the death of the chicken that lays the egg, which is why some vegetarians consume them.
And where do you think the egg factories send a hen when it's prime is past?
To a chicken retirement home?
WingedMonkey
10-08-2015, 13:51
That quote should have been to AT Traveler's comment, not sure why it came out like it did.
Keep in mind that in the US, it is habitat loss, not hunting that is threatening our wildlife.
Hunting is already heavily regulated in terms of what species you are allowed to hunt and fish for and how many you are allowed to take. States review and update their game laws regularly and often change bag limits or put moratoriums on certain game animals depending on their populations (this is especiallly common with fishing limits). Also keep in mind that in the US the single largest source of conservation funding is the tax levied on hunting and fishing equipment through the Pittman Robertson act which specifies that the tax revenue is used for the conservation of all species and habitat (the bill does not give preference to the conservation of game species over other animals.)
This is not true at all (and I should know since I'm an ecologist/wildlife biologist). At least 120 species on the US endangered species list are there, at least in part, because of overhunting/exploitation. Lots of animals in the US are still overexploited, especially predators. Hunting/poaching is preventing the recovery of Mexican wolves, and hunting has pushed numbers of the grey wolf way down in the northern rockies. Illegal killing has basically made it impossible for the red wolf to make a recovery in the Southeast. There are lots more examples.
In many states, the game departments set bag limits and seasons with almost zero knowledge of the size of the hunted population. Go look at any state's hunting regulations. Do you really think they know exactly or even roughly how many there are of each species? No, not even close. Even for the heavily hunted species, it's mostly guesswork based on the last year's take. I spend almost all of my work time thinking about how to count animals--it's really hard, and almost no one does it well. Especially poorly funded state fish and wildlife agencies where there is generally not a lot of quantitative expertise. They might have okay estimates for deer and elk. For everything else, they mostly have no idea. And since no one is counting, people don't notice that a population is being overexploited until it crashes, like sage grouse (which are amazingly still hunted in many states despite the government spending millions and millions of dollars to recover them before they get listed as endangered).
Old Grouse
10-08-2015, 15:14
[QUOTE=AT Traveler;2010160]
And where do you think the egg factories send a hen when it's prime is past?
To a chicken retirement home?
That's an interesting point. My neighbor's daughter is a vegetarian, but she eats eggs from my hens because she knows I keep them "in retirement" even after their egg production ceases. They still provide us with enjoyment as moveable lawn sculpture, and they continue to eat ticks and other bugs.
Odd Man Out
10-08-2015, 15:37
I'm still looking for a biologically logical argument for why it is acceptable to kill plant and not animals.
rocketsocks
10-08-2015, 15:40
I'm still looking for a biologically logical argument for why it is acceptable to kill plant and not animals.
http://www.badideatshirts.com/Assets/ProductImages/PS_0279W_INNOCENT_PLANTS.jpg
Pedaling Fool
10-08-2015, 15:42
Sorry, my question wasn't sarcastic. As someone who has never been to America I have no idea. I know you guys are really into your meat though. There are massive cultural divides and I was in no way making out that one was inferior. Veganism has gone from being somewhat obscure in the UK to there being several vegan restaurants in each city in the space of a decade or so. 10 years ago you had to ask at an eatery if food was vegetarian, now they are labelled thus on the menu.
Having been to places like South Africa, I've experienced cultures where people just don't get the idea of people not eating meat with every meal, never mind not at all.No reason to apologize; actually, the same thought went thru my head when I read the question this morning.
It still humors me whenever I hear someone (such as my aforementioned European coworkers) think of fish as not being meat. Just a cultural difference in the meaning of the word I suppose. In America "meat" generally refers to any and all types of animal flesh....Actually, my grandparents, especially grandmother was catholic and I was baptized catholic, but I'm not a practicing catholic. I remember meat not being on the menu at Grandmom's house on Fridays, but we could eat fish. So I think this is more a Jesus thing that has gotten into the culture, but not really sure. http://rediscover.archspm.org/belonging/why-dont-catholics-eat-meat-on-fridays/
Excerpt:
"Since Jesus sacrificed his flesh for us on Good Friday, we refrain from eating flesh meat in his honor on Fridays. Flesh meat includes the meat of mammals and poultry, and the main foods that come under this heading are beef and pork, chicken and turkey. While flesh is prohibited, the non-flesh products of these animals are not, things like milk, cheese, butter, and eggs.
Fish do not belong to the flesh meat category. The Latin word for meat, caro, from which we get English words like carnivore and carnivorous, applies strictly to flesh meat and has never been understood to include fish. Furthermore, in former times flesh meat was more expensive, eaten only occasionally, and associated with feasting and rejoicing; whereas fish was cheap, eaten more often, and not associated with celebrations."
I'm still looking for a biologically logical argument for why it is acceptable to kill plant and not animals.
The ecological argument in favor of vegan/vegetarianism is straightforward, I think.
The rest of your comment is impossible to parse. The term "acceptable" is not one that you see in biology textbooks. Nature doesn't work that way.
rocketsocks
10-08-2015, 15:59
No reason to apologize; actually, the same thought went thru my head when I read the question this morning.
Actually, my grandparents, especially grandmother was catholic and I was baptized catholic, but I'm not a practicing catholic. I remember meat not being on the menu at Grandmom's house on Fridays, but we could eat fish. So I think this is more a Jesus thing that has gotten into the culture, but not really sure. http://rediscover.archspm.org/belonging/why-dont-catholics-eat-meat-on-fridays/
Excerpt:
"Since Jesus sacrificed his flesh for us on Good Friday, we refrain from eating flesh meat in his honor on Fridays. Flesh meat includes the meat of mammals and poultry, and the main foods that come under this heading are beef and pork, chicken and turkey. While flesh is prohibited, the non-flesh products of these animals are not, things like milk, cheese, butter, and eggs.
Fish do not belong to the flesh meat category. The Latin word for meat, caro, from which we get English words like carnivore and carnivorous, applies strictly to flesh meat and has never been understood to include fish. Furthermore, in former times flesh meat was more expensive, eaten only occasionally, and associated with feasting and rejoicing; whereas fish was cheap, eaten more often, and not associated with celebrations."I don't know if Jurek had any Fish Taco's, but he did have some burrito's
He told Bon Appétit he can “eat a burrito at seven- or eight-minute per mile pace.” When I asked him about this, Jurek said it took practice to figure out how to eat solid food as he runs.
rocketsocks
10-08-2015, 15:59
No reason to apologize; actually, the same thought went thru my head when I read the question this morning.
Actually, my grandparents, especially grandmother was catholic and I was baptized catholic, but I'm not a practicing catholic. I remember meat not being on the menu at Grandmom's house on Fridays, but we could eat fish. So I think this is more a Jesus thing that has gotten into the culture, but not really sure. http://rediscover.archspm.org/belonging/why-dont-catholics-eat-meat-on-fridays/
Excerpt:
"Since Jesus sacrificed his flesh for us on Good Friday, we refrain from eating flesh meat in his honor on Fridays. Flesh meat includes the meat of mammals and poultry, and the main foods that come under this heading are beef and pork, chicken and turkey. While flesh is prohibited, the non-flesh products of these animals are not, things like milk, cheese, butter, and eggs.
Fish do not belong to the flesh meat category. The Latin word for meat, caro, from which we get English words like carnivore and carnivorous, applies strictly to flesh meat and has never been understood to include fish. Furthermore, in former times flesh meat was more expensive, eaten only occasionally, and associated with feasting and rejoicing; whereas fish was cheap, eaten more often, and not associated with celebrations."I don't know if Jurek had any Fish Taco's, but he did have some burrito's
He told Bon Appétit he can “eat a burrito at seven- or eight-minute per mile pace.” When I asked him about this, Jurek said it took practice to figure out how to eat solid food as he runs.
Pedaling Fool
10-08-2015, 16:16
Sorry, my question wasn't sarcastic. As someone who has never been to America I have no idea. I know you guys are really into your meat though. There are massive cultural divides and I was in no way making out that one was inferior. Veganism has gone from being somewhat obscure in the UK to there being several vegan restaurants in each city in the space of a decade or so. 10 years ago you had to ask at an eatery if food was vegetarian, now they are labelled thus on the menu.
Having been to places like South Africa, I've experienced cultures where people just don't get the idea of people not eating meat with every meal, never mind not at all.
I don't know if Jurek had any Fish Taco's, but he did have some burrito's
He told Bon Appétit he can “eat a burrito at seven- or eight-minute per mile pace.” When I asked him about this, Jurek said it took practice to figure out how to eat solid food as he runs.I eat peanuts when riding and it took a while to learn how to do that, you definitely can't be breathing too hard. I inhaled one once down the wind pipe and I watched my HR drop from 150 to about 75 in a matter of seconds, that scared the hell out of me. I had to pull over and regroup and when I started back up I didn't get over 140 HR after that; Peanuts are one of those things that just because you ate them all, there are still bits left in your mouth waiting to be sucked down:D
Traveler
10-08-2015, 17:08
[QUOTE=AT Traveler;2010160]
And where do you think the egg factories send a hen when it's prime is past?
To a chicken retirement home?
It does not die as a result of laying the egg, which is the basis some people have for eating eggs, milk, etc. Though the Chicken Retirement Home is a clever idea. West Palm would make sense for that!
AlyontheAT2016
10-08-2015, 17:19
I try to only eat meat if I know it came from a grass-fed/organically fed free range animal. just 5 years ago, this would have been a hard thing to do. it's still hard. watch the documentary Food Inc to get an idea of how awful the food industry in the states really is.
Tipi Walter
10-08-2015, 17:20
I'm still looking for a biologically logical argument for why it is acceptable to kill plant and not animals.
http://www.badideatshirts.com/Assets/ProductImages/PS_0279W_INNOCENT_PLANTS.jpg
I've seen these arguments countless times and they most often come from meat-eaters justifying their food choices. It goes likes this:
"If I kill a carrot I am therefore morally justified in killing a cow---both are equal."
Does a carrot have a central nervous system like a cow? Does a carrot have any type of mind or ego? Does a carrot experience pain at the same level as a cow?
I like Sivananda's quote about this subject:
QUESTION:"Should it not be considered as Himsa (injury) when we cut vegetables and fruits?"
Cutting vegetables is not Himsa. There is no real consciousness in plants and trees, although there is life in them. There is life in plants, sensation in animals, mentality in human beings and spirituality in sages. There is no Visesha Ahankara (ego) and reflection of Chaitanya ( pure consciousness) in plants and trees. Hence they cannot experience pain. The tree will not say, "I am experiencing pain". The mind in plants and trees is not developed. It is quite rudimentary. It is Jada (inert) and insentient. Life on earth will be impossible if we take cutting vegetables also as Himsa. This is only splitting the hairs. This is the idle philosophy of those who take interest in vain discussions and arguments. Ignore trifles. Become a practical man." SIVANANDA
Lone Wolf
10-08-2015, 17:24
millions of small mammals and birds are killed yearly by machines harvesting veggies so if you don't raise your own veggies and eat store bought stuff you're a hypocrite
Tipi Walter
10-08-2015, 17:32
millions of small mammals and birds are killed yearly by machines harvesting veggies so if you don't raise your own veggies and eat store bought stuff you're a hypocrite
But just think of the billions of animals not having to die if we quit eating meat.
Sarcasm the elf
10-08-2015, 17:50
This is not true at all (and I should know since I'm an ecologist/wildlife biologist). At least 120 species on the US endangered species list are there, at least in part, because of overhunting/exploitation. Lots of animals in the US are still overexploited, especially predators. Hunting/poaching is preventing the recovery of Mexican wolves, and hunting has pushed numbers of the grey wolf way down in the northern rockies. Illegal killing has basically made it impossible for the red wolf to make a recovery in the Southeast. There are lots more examples.
In many states, the game departments set bag limits and seasons with almost zero knowledge of the size of the hunted population. Go look at any state's hunting regulations. Do you really think they know exactly or even roughly how many there are of each species? No, not even close. Even for the heavily hunted species, it's mostly guesswork based on the last year's take. I spend almost all of my work time thinking about how to count animals--it's really hard, and almost no one does it well. Especially poorly funded state fish and wildlife agencies where there is generally not a lot of quantitative expertise. They might have okay estimates for deer and elk. For everything else, they mostly have no idea. And since no one is counting, people don't notice that a population is being overexploited until it crashes, like sage grouse (which are amazingly still hunted in many states despite the government spending millions and millions of dollars to recover them before they get listed as endangered).
First off don't start a response with "This is not true at all" and then cherrypick what you choose to refute, it's just rude.
Second, the main point of my response, which you chose to ignore was that in the US, it is habitat loss that is by and large that is the greater threat to wildlife than hunting. As a biologist do you actually disagree with this? Perhaps I should have specified legal hunting since I don't consider ranchers illegally shooting wolves to be hunters, but I do understand your point.
Since you mention sage grouse, everything I have read points to development and habitat loss as the main causes of their population decline, though I do agree that a hunting moratorium should have been put in place for the species long ago. I would be interested to know your opinion of this as well because I will admit you probably know more about it that I do.
Finally as I said, the excise tax on hunting and fishing equipment is the single largest source of conservation funding in the country and is worth accounting for in any broad based discussion about hunting in the US. As a biologist I hope you are aware of this as well. One of my greatest long term concerns about conservation in this country is that as we move from a more rural to a more urban nation we lose large amounts of land to development and urban sprawl. At the same time there is a steady and continuing decline in people purchasing hunting licenses and equipment as our more urban population has both less access and less interest in the pursuit. I fear this is bringing us to a point where we will have both less open space as well as less conservation funds to preserve what is left.
Sarcasm the elf:
1) I didn't mention habitat loss because it's a no-brainer. I was disputing your statement about hunting being a non-factor in wildlife declines. That is categorically false.
2) The first thing you should do when a species is seriously declining is stop ****ing hunting it. That's such a no brainer, but the state agencies are addicted to the money from hunting fees and roll over when the hunting groups grouse (pun intended) about hunting bans, so it will not happen until the sage grouse are declared endangered.
3) If the Pittman tax was voluntary, I'd say, bully for hunters for being stand up guys! But it's not--it's congressionally mandated. So you don't get to claim that hunters are awesome, magnanimous fellows for paying a tax that they have to pay. Just like I don't get to claim that I am funding the war in Afghanistan because some of my taxes go there. Also, P-R funding is only a very small fraction of total spending on public lands and wildlife conservation in the US (I could dig up the numbers here which I have somewhere, but I don't really feel like it). If it dried up tomorrow, state agencies would have to cut back some programs, but the net effect would be very small.
The vast, vast majority of public lands users are wildlife watcher, hikers, campers, and general nature tourists. Hunting is slowly but surely disappearing, as you mention, and if we are to reverse the ongoing loss of natural areas, it will be because non-hunters wake up to the problem. I know hunters think that they are the ultimate conservationists, but there are not enough hunters to make a difference in the long run. The Republicans in Congress just killed the LWCF which was one of the most effective (and cheapest) programs for increasing public lands. Things will not be better so long as one party in congress continues on an anti-environmental platform.
Ironically, most hunters vote republican (42% R vs. 18% D in the last poll I could find). Maybe if hunters started to vote for the party that likes public lands and not the party that wants to sell public lands to the highest bidder, things would be a little better.
[QUOTE=AT Traveler;2010160]
And where do you think the egg factories send a hen when it's prime is past?
To a chicken retirement home?
Or the male chicks.
Vegan Packer
10-08-2015, 23:23
Vegans are people that do not consume animal products of any kind. We also do not use products that are made from animals. Vegetarian is a loose term that can mean almost anything. There are people that eat everything but beef, and maybe pork, that call themselves vegetarians.
There are Olympic gold medalists, record setters, body builders, champion weight lifters, and every other kind of top professional athlete that are among the very top ranked and that are vegans. A proper diet does not require consuming animal products of any kind, and you can get all of the protein and nutrients that a healthy diet requires without consuming animal products. As you get older, you will benefit tremendously from making such a change.
For all of the people that are here that love the beauty of nature, you should take a scientific look at what is the result of our animal agriculture, overfishing, and what we are doing to this planet due to our desire to consume and use animal products. For example, livestock is the largest source of methane gas emissions worldwide, contributing over 28 percent of total emissions. If you really love taking care of the trails and nature, changing over to products that do not make such a devastating impact on our planet would support this preservation of where we hike that you desire.
These days, it is pretty easy to make the switch. For example, did you know that White Castle now has vegan burgers? There are all kinds of gourmet foods that taste great, even for non-vegans, that are right in the supermarket. Did any of you watch my video of my recent backpacking trip to Washington? I ate all gourmet while on the trail, and it was all healthy, and it was all vegan. (Well, I did allow some flexibility with things like sugar, since that dehydrates better than what I would usually use.) Going vegan is not so hard to do, if you do it in a way that doesn't make you suffer.
All of my backpacking equipment is vegan. Now, there's one that is super easy to do.
Yes, we have impacts on our planet, even if we do our best to try to keep those to a minimum. However, there are easy steps that we can take to keep those to that minimum, and many can be offset the negatives.
I am happy to share my trail recipes with anybody that wants to start eating healthier, delicious meals on the trail.
I'm glad that article on Scott Jurek's Vegan dietary specifics for his FKT was shared. I was wondering specifically what he was eating. He was consuming 6000 cal/day about 100 cals/hr minimum. He lost 20 lbs in less than 7 wks and he gained those 20 lbs back in one month after the hike. Gaining 20 lbs in a month seems rather extreme.
Lots of far ranging interesting perspectives on this thread.
gpburdelljr
10-09-2015, 12:02
One third of vegetarians eat meat when drunk.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/vegetarians-eat-meat-drunk-survey_56167f34e4b0e66ad4c69f50
Tipi Walter
10-09-2015, 12:33
I've been a vegetarian (no meat, no fish) for around 43 years and in that time I have eschewed eggs and dairy and then would come back to them. The important thing to me is to avoid meat products, and then dabble with eggs/dairy sometimes yes, sometimes no. Often if I felt like I was getting sick (head cold, flu), I would quit cheese and eggs and things would clear up.
I go through phases. On my last backpacking trip and for several months I've been vegan, but now I'm adding goat butter to my meals.
It's difficult for me to go very long without goat cheese, especially on my backpacking trips. On my next trip I won't be carrying cheese but mostly home dried vegetarian chili and dried brown rice---with a little goat butter thrown in.
But one of the best backpacking meals I have found is excellent goat cheese sliced up with a fresh red apple and a handful of walnuts. Perfect.
Being a strict vegan is not needed in my opinion although there are times healthwise when it's important. My take on it anyway.
millions of small mammals and birds are killed yearly by machines harvesting veggies so if you don't raise your own veggies and eat store bought stuff you're a hypocrite
This is something that I feel people really need further education on. It's usually along the lines of "ow wow do you guys know how much habitat has been destroyed in order to make way for the cultivation of soy?" I'd urge you to do a bit of research on it. A vast majority of harvested crop is used for animal feed. You could feed the world's population many times over on just the grain harvested for livestock.
One thing that really does PISS ME OFF is when carnivores will pick fault with other people who are taking positive steps to make a difference. "OH SO YOU DON'T EAT MEAT BUT YOU STILL EAT DAIRY? SO KILLING AN ANIMAL IS WRONG BUT RAPING IT IS OK?!", "YOU'RE NOT A REAL VEGAN BECAUSE YOU EAT HONEY!" and so on. Just by making a conscious effort to cut down on something that leads to the mistreatment of animals you are taking a positive step so it always baffles me when people criticize other's efforts while simultaneously wiping the bacon grease off their bottom lip. I think a lot of it stems from some self-righteous vegans/veggies getting on their nerves and some of it from their own insecurities about their own diet. I've got no issue with a vegan calling me a dick because I'm only a part-time pescatarian but it's pretty frustrating when a full on carnivore calls you out on it.
So in conclusion, maybe hold off on calling people (who are only making an effort to make the world a better place, mind you) hypocrites before you have walked a mile in their imitation-leather shoes or have done a bit of research on the facts behind your argument.
Casey & Gina
10-09-2015, 12:56
One third of vegetarians eat meat when drunk.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/vegetarians-eat-meat-drunk-survey_56167f34e4b0e66ad4c69f50
Hahaha, that is funny! It is true though - I know that if I get drunk I make lots of stupid choices I usually avoid, like smoking cigarettes. Easiest solution for me is to just avoid drinking. ;) I really don't believe anyone always perfectly adheres to their morals regardless of what they are.
To reiterate my stance I think a perspective that is either dogmatic or "all-or-nothing" is seriously detrimental. I would rather be imperfect and readily admitting my faults, happy that the choices I make 99% of the time are in accordance with what I feel is best, than one who claims perfection and hides any inadvertent mistakes and feels guilty and stressed about it.
Casey & Gina
10-09-2015, 13:14
Being a strict vegan is not needed in my opinion although there are times healthwise when it's important. My take on it anyway.
Great point! There are also times when the best thing for our health is to not eat at all, but that isn't very sustainable. ;)
Tipi Walter
10-09-2015, 13:18
Great point! There are also times when the best thing for our health is to not eat at all, but that isn't very sustainable. ;)
Totally agree with this. Periodic fasting is a vital component to good health in my opinion.
This is something that I feel people really need further education on. It's usually along the lines of "ow wow do you guys know how much habitat has been destroyed in order to make way for the cultivation of soy?" I'd urge you to do a bit of research on it. A vast majority of harvested crop is used for animal feed. You could feed the world's population many times over on just the grain harvested for livestock.
One thing that really does PISS ME OFF is when carnivores will pick fault with other people who are taking positive steps to make a difference. "OH SO YOU DON'T EAT MEAT BUT YOU STILL EAT DAIRY? SO KILLING AN ANIMAL IS WRONG BUT RAPING IT IS OK?!", "YOU'RE NOT A REAL VEGAN BECAUSE YOU EAT HONEY!" and so on. Just by making a conscious effort to cut down on something that leads to the mistreatment of animals you are taking a positive step so it always baffles me when people criticize other's efforts while simultaneously wiping the bacon grease off their bottom lip. I think a lot of it stems from some self-righteous vegans/veggies getting on their nerves and some of it from their own insecurities about their own diet. I've got no issue with a vegan calling me a dick because I'm only a part-time pescatarian but it's pretty frustrating when a full on carnivore calls you out on it.
So in conclusion, maybe hold off on calling people (who are only making an effort to make the world a better place, mind you) hypocrites before you have walked a mile in their imitation-leather shoes or have done a bit of research on the facts behind your argument.
A carnivore /ˈkɑrnɪvɔər/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English) meaning 'meat eater' (Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin), caro meaning 'meat' or 'flesh' and vorare meaning 'to devour') is anorganism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organism) that derives its energy and nutrient requirements from a diet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diet_(nutrition)) consisting mainly or exclusively of animal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal) tissue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tissue_(biology)), whether through predation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predation) or scavenging (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scavenger).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore#cite_note-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore#cite_note-MC-2) From Wikipedia
See, here is my instance. I think most (emphasis on most )of the vegans/vegetarians chose it because they think it is good for their body and it makes them feel healthier. This argument/fact that using no meat is good for conserving our plant earth is just a by product of being vegetarian. I have a friend that is vegan because in her childhood she saw slaughter of a lamb and it was traumatizing for her but she does not rub in my face that she is saving our planet .
Also I have not seen non vegans ( call us regular meat eaters)attack the vegans until they are attacked first by vegans because of their meat eating is called destroying the planet and/or causing cruelty to animals.
Ps: Calling regular meat eaters Carnivore is almost like calling Vegans/vegetarians Ruminants. It just does not sound friendly or inviting. We are omnivore if any term needs to be used.
Casey & Gina
10-09-2015, 13:56
Also I have not seen non vegans ( call us regular meat eaters)attack the vegans until they are attacked first by vegans because of their meat eating is called destroying the planet and/or causing cruelty to animals.
It most certainly does happen. Most annoying is when it is with a coworker or family member - you go out to a restaurant or otherwise eat together and the other person ends up frustrated that you won't eat meat. Last time my mother visited we went to a Chinese buffet restaurant and she harassed me about it continually. Last time I visited my grandmother she was nearly in tears because I didn't want to eat some things she made with meat (she knew I was vegan and considers herself to be vegetarian, but will do things like making a soup using sausage "just for the flavor", then removes the meat pieces and feeds them to her dog and considers the remaining soup to be "vegetarian"...). People at my workplace randomly give me crap about it all the time, despite me never trying to push my agenda on them or even disclosing my preferences unless asked.
That said, I have seen a bigger presence of dogmatic vegans which I feel do more harm than good. By far the most extreme example of that I have ever seen is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPAxEcZeuw
Ps: Calling regular meat eaters Carnivore is almost like calling Vegans/vegetarians Ruminants. It just does not sound friendly or inviting. We are omnivore if any term needs to be used.
I agree, but sometimes it is a self-inflicted term. See above in this thread for an example of someone using the term "meatitarian" for referring to themselves - I think sometimes omnivores choose to use a word like "carnivore" or "meatitarian" to make it clear that they are not just non-vegetarian, but are actively against it. That said even a person who is staunchly anti-vegetarian in their own meals can be very respectful and courteous to those of a different outlook.
What is key is for everyone to realize they can only really control their own actions, and to be respectful to others who make different decisions for themselves. It's fine to respectfully discuss, explain, and even encourage one's own stance; it's not fine to get overly upset and condemn others for choosing something different. Food choice seems to be a very touchy subject, and few are willing to up and change their beliefs and habits overnight.
Casey & Gina
10-09-2015, 13:57
Also I have not seen non vegans ( call us regular meat eaters)attack the vegans until they are attacked first by vegans because of their meat eating is called destroying the planet and/or causing cruelty to animals.
It most certainly does happen. Most annoying is when it is with a coworker or family member - you go out to a restaurant or otherwise eat together and the other person ends up frustrated that you won't eat meat. Last time my mother visited we went to a Chinese buffet restaurant and she harassed me about it continually. Last time I visited my grandmother she was nearly in tears because I didn't want to eat some things she made with meat (she knew I was vegan and considers herself to be vegetarian, but will do things like making a soup using sausage "just for the flavor", then removes the meat pieces and feeds them to her dog and considers the remaining soup to be "vegetarian"...). People at my workplace randomly give me crap about it all the time, despite me never trying to push my agenda on them or even disclosing my preferences unless asked.
That said, I have seen a bigger presence of dogmatic vegans which I feel do more harm than good. By far the most extreme example of that I have ever seen is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPAxEcZeuw
Ps: Calling regular meat eaters Carnivore is almost like calling Vegans/vegetarians Ruminants. It just does not sound friendly or inviting. We are omnivore if any term needs to be used.
I agree, but sometimes it is a self-inflicted term. See above in this thread for an example of someone using the term "meatitarian" for referring to themselves - I think sometimes omnivores choose to use a word like "carnivore" or "meatitarian" to make it clear that they are not just non-vegetarian, but are actively against it. That said even a person who is staunchly anti-vegetarian in their own meals can be very respectful and courteous to those of a different outlook.
What is key is for everyone to realize they can only really control their own actions, and to be respectful to others who make different decisions for themselves. It's fine to respectfully discuss, explain, and even encourage one's own stance; it's not fine to get overly upset and condemn others for choosing something different. Food choice seems to be a very touchy subject, and few are willing to up and change their beliefs and habits overnight.
Casey & Gina
10-09-2015, 13:57
Sorry, I don't know why a lot of my posts on whiteblaze have been appearing double lately...
It most certainly does happen. Most annoying is when it is with a coworker or family member - you go out to a restaurant or otherwise eat together and the other person ends up frustrated that you won't eat meat. Last time my mother visited we went to a Chinese buffet restaurant and she harassed me about it continually. Last time I visited my grandmother she was nearly in tears because I didn't want to eat some things she made with meat (she knew I was vegan and considers herself to be vegetarian, but will do things like making a soup using sausage "just for the flavor", then removes the meat pieces and feeds them to her dog and considers the remaining soup to be "vegetarian"...). People at my workplace randomly give me crap about it all the time, despite me never trying to push my agenda on them or even disclosing my preferences unless asked.
That said, I have seen a bigger presence of dogmatic vegans which I feel do more harm than good. By far the most extreme example of that I have ever seen is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPAxEcZeuw
I agree, but sometimes it is a self-inflicted term. See above in this thread for an example of someone using the term "meatitarian" for referring to themselves - I think sometimes omnivores choose to use a word like "carnivore" or "meatitarian" to make it clear that they are not just non-vegetarian, but are actively against it. That said even a person who is staunchly anti-vegetarian in their own meals can be very respectful and courteous to those of a different outlook.
What is key is for everyone to realize they can only really control their own actions, and to be respectful to others who make different decisions for themselves. It's fine to respectfully discuss, explain, and even encourage one's own stance; it's not fine to get overly upset and condemn others for choosing something different. Food choice seems to be a very touchy subject, and few are willing to up and change their beliefs and habits overnight.
thank you for your post.
I was the one that called myself meatiterian. This term is not for every person unless they are like me that uses meat in every meal including breakfast. I consume vegtables also. at least 2 tomatos , 5 Garlic cloves ( pickled to avoid bothering others) and one onion per day( sounds smelly huh?). But I have a love affair with meat so I call myself a meatiterian.
I like a society that let people choose what they eat . What difference does it make for me if you or anybody else is vegan? Good for you. I respect your choice and even have a deep respect for your choice but I also expect vegans to respect my choice of diet. If your grandmother is frustrated is because she wants you to enjoy the food that she has tired her best to make it close to your standard . It is sometimes frustrating but nothing more than that.
Lone Wolf
10-09-2015, 15:56
This is something that I feel people really need further education on. It's usually along the lines of "ow wow do you guys know how much habitat has been destroyed in order to make way for the cultivation of soy?" I'd urge you to do a bit of research on it. A vast majority of harvested crop is used for animal feed. You could feed the world's population many times over on just the grain harvested for livestock.
One thing that really does PISS ME OFF is when carnivores will pick fault with other people who are taking positive steps to make a difference. "OH SO YOU DON'T EAT MEAT BUT YOU STILL EAT DAIRY? SO KILLING AN ANIMAL IS WRONG BUT RAPING IT IS OK?!", "YOU'RE NOT A REAL VEGAN BECAUSE YOU EAT HONEY!" and so on. Just by making a conscious effort to cut down on something that leads to the mistreatment of animals you are taking a positive step so it always baffles me when people criticize other's efforts while simultaneously wiping the bacon grease off their bottom lip. I think a lot of it stems from some self-righteous vegans/veggies getting on their nerves and some of it from their own insecurities about their own diet. I've got no issue with a vegan calling me a dick because I'm only a part-time pescatarian but it's pretty frustrating when a full on carnivore calls you out on it.
So in conclusion, maybe hold off on calling people (who are only making an effort to make the world a better place, mind you) hypocrites before you have walked a mile in their imitation-leather shoes or have done a bit of research on the facts behind your argument.
yo pauly, i used to work on a farm. i witnessed lotsa small animals get killed by the machines. you veggie folks are hypocrites. animals die in the production of your rabbit food
Lone Wolf
10-09-2015, 15:56
This is something that I feel people really need further education on. It's usually along the lines of "ow wow do you guys know how much habitat has been destroyed in order to make way for the cultivation of soy?" I'd urge you to do a bit of research on it. A vast majority of harvested crop is used for animal feed. You could feed the world's population many times over on just the grain harvested for livestock.
One thing that really does PISS ME OFF is when carnivores will pick fault with other people who are taking positive steps to make a difference. "OH SO YOU DON'T EAT MEAT BUT YOU STILL EAT DAIRY? SO KILLING AN ANIMAL IS WRONG BUT RAPING IT IS OK?!", "YOU'RE NOT A REAL VEGAN BECAUSE YOU EAT HONEY!" and so on. Just by making a conscious effort to cut down on something that leads to the mistreatment of animals you are taking a positive step so it always baffles me when people criticize other's efforts while simultaneously wiping the bacon grease off their bottom lip. I think a lot of it stems from some self-righteous vegans/veggies getting on their nerves and some of it from their own insecurities about their own diet. I've got no issue with a vegan calling me a dick because I'm only a part-time pescatarian but it's pretty frustrating when a full on carnivore calls you out on it.
So in conclusion, maybe hold off on calling people (who are only making an effort to make the world a better place, mind you) hypocrites before you have walked a mile in their imitation-leather shoes or have done a bit of research on the facts behind your argument.
yo pauly, i used to work on a farm. i witnessed lotsa small animals get killed by the machines. you veggie folks are hypocrites. animals die in the production of your rabbit food
colorado_rob
10-09-2015, 16:20
I have nothing but respect for Veggies and Vegans, to each his/her own and good for them for sticking to their ethics.
But I am a meat lover and always will be, and furthermore, I have never read one shred of actual convincing evidence that meat eating is bad for your health. I also can't help but notice that we all (well most of us, at least) have four nice sharp "canine" meat-tearing teeth? Not a cow-like set of choppers. I tend to go with what my body is good at and what it craves (hmmmm...... bacon.....)
Not statistically relevant, but in my closer circle of maybe 3-dozen or so family and friends group, there are about 6 veggies and one pure vegan. All of the veggies have some sort of health issue; over weight, underweight, lactose or gluten intolerant (I guess one can argue which came first, the veggie-ness or the ill-health with veggie-ness trying to fix that?). All of my meat-loving pals (and we do partake quite heavily in such) seem to be perfectly healthy. What goes there? Meat and potatoes, just like my parents, have served me very, very well.
But my vegan pal: Wow, does this guy know his stuff. He is 65 years old and in perfect health. His career has been as a nutritionist. but: he is a vegan strictly because of ethics and in fact, he claims that one really has to know his stuff to stay healthy on a vegetarian and vegan diet. Perhaps this is why my veggie friends have some health issues.
He has written a fine book ("1-2-3 Eat!", check it out) which is the very first nutrition book I've read that truly makes sense. It is NOT a book made for veggies/vegans, in fact the thesis of the book is basically this: Our bodies need a certain amount of 41 nutrients (carbs, fats, proteins/amino acids, vitamins, minerals) and only 41. If we lack any of these 41 for a significant period, we will have something go wrong, major or minor. However we get these 41 is fine. Meats contain copious amounts of the 41, hence why they are so healthy. But meats alone aren't enough, enter veggies and fruits and even grains. So, basically, a very healthy 65 year old Vegan, who has studied and practiced nutrition his entire life promotes meat-eating if your ethics are good with it and if you are balanced with plenty of other foods.
Or you could just follow tabloid-esque media hype and psudo-science articles and eschew meats. Thank you, by the way, for doing so. Lower demand for meats brings their price down!
I have never read one shred of actual convincing evidence that meat eating is bad for your health.
I think it's widely accepted that eating a lot of red or fatty meats is bad for your health. Emphasis on 'a lot'. Anything in moderation is not going to cause much damage.
yo pauly, i used to work on a farm. i witnessed lotsa small animals get killed by the machines. you veggie folks are hypocrites. animals die in the production of your rabbit food
Congrats on completely missing my point that a majority of crop farming is a direct result of the meat industry. And congrats on proving my point about omnivores criticizing other people for making a positive change.
colorado_rob
10-09-2015, 16:50
I think it's widely accepted that eating a lot of red or fatty meats is bad for your health. Emphasis on 'a lot'. Anything in moderation is not going to cause much damage.Accepted by whom? And what "damage" are you referring to?
The world was once widely accepted to be flat, right? (not a great analogy, but it sprang to mind....)
All I see are fad diets and media nonsense and in fact for the latest actual nutrition/science-based articles, I tend to see a lot of the opposite. My own doc laughs when I ask him about avoiding red meats.
squeezebox
10-09-2015, 16:52
So what's the issue with honey?
colorado_rob
10-09-2015, 17:06
So what's the issue with honey?Pisses off the Bears?
yo pauly, i used to work on a farm. i witnessed lotsa small animals get killed by the machines. you veggie folks are hypocrites. animals die in the production of your rabbit food
You're suggesting we return to ox-drawn plows? Cuz we're chopping up the poor little gophers and prarie dogs? Seriously?
Eating meat is eating at the top of the food chain. It's inherently wasteful.
Lone Wolf
10-09-2015, 17:20
You're suggesting we return to ox-drawn plows? Cuz we're chopping up the poor little gophers and prarie dogs? Seriously?
i'm suggesting your reading comprehension sucks. never typed or suggested nothin' about no ox plows. using oxen would be animal abuse and hypocritical
Sarcasm the elf
10-09-2015, 17:32
For the record I'm all in favor of oxen.
Lone Wolf
10-09-2015, 17:37
me too
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sunny-anderson/oxtail-stew-recipe.html
Lone Wolf
10-09-2015, 17:38
me too
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sunny-anderson/oxtail-stew-recipe.html
Sarcasm the elf
10-09-2015, 17:40
me too
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sunny-anderson/oxtail-stew-recipe.html
I was never big on lima beans...
Casey & Gina
10-09-2015, 18:10
So what's the issue with honey?
Insects are in the animal kingdom, so some vegans don't believe in consuming it. Certainly a lot of vegans do not have any such objection, though.
i'm suggesting your reading comprehension sucks. never typed or suggested nothin' about no ox plows. using oxen would be animal abuse and hypocritical
If ox-drawn farm implements were animal abuse, we're all born of hypocrite ancestors, and hypocrisy is in our DNA.
I know that fossil fuels are awful in a whole bunch of ways, but I'll be burning a few gallons to go hiking this weekend. Living in the real world makes hypocrites of us all. ;)
I defend vegetarianism without really practicing it. Meat production (and consumption) is horrible in a whole bunch of ways, but I still enjoy an occasional cheeseburger.
squeezebox
10-09-2015, 20:06
No bees were injured in the making of this honey. I still really don't get it other than it's an animal by-product. And maybe using animals equals abusing animals.
Does this idea include using animals for transportation?
There are so many much more serious issues to try to fix in this world.
For the record I'm all in favor of oxen.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5662/21042315600_b231099a83.jpg
Scotts Bluff, Oregon Trail ...I did not get dysentery.
Sarcasm the elf
10-09-2015, 23:38
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5662/21042315600_b231099a83.jpg
Scotts Bluff, Oregon Trail ...I did not get dysentery.
Buried somewhere in my parent's house are a couple of photos of 8 year old me driving a dead broke team of oxen around dirt roads on a hobby farm. They didn't have anything hitched to them, but I got fairly good at driving them over the course of that summer.
Also, excellent Oregon Trail photos on FB, I was geeking out a bit over the wagon wheel grave marker.
Traveler
10-10-2015, 07:14
Could use of the vaunted triple negative be considered language abuse? :-?
Pedaling Fool
10-10-2015, 07:24
No bees were injured in the making of this honey. I still really don't get it other than it's an animal by-product. And maybe using animals equals abusing animals.
Does this idea include using animals for transportation?
There are so many much more serious issues to try to fix in this world.I can't address why some vegans see the consumption of honey as NOT being a true vegan. However, bees are regularly killed every time the beekeeper goes into the hive. Because they start flying all over the place, many of them sting you, resulting in their death, but also many of them get on portions of the wooden frames/sectional boxes and as those parts are put back together they get crushed.
Then you got the bees that are shipped all over the country to pollinate certain crops, such as almonds, blueberries, etc... However, I don't believe any of that honey is harvested, but it's pretty tough on them little critters. I imagine quite a few miss the bus :) And they can not live on their own outside the hive. But then again, they only live about 6-weeks in the months they are collecting for the hive - they literally work themselves to death. Busy as a bee:D
squeezebox
10-10-2015, 13:18
If you wear a proper bee suit they can not sting you.
You can brush the bees out of the way when putting the hive back together.
I think honey from traveling bees for pollination is harvested, blueberry honey would be wonderful.
An excluder is available so the bees can get into the hive but not out.
Still a lot more serious stuff to worry about.
MHO
Yes, it was a serious question and thank you for the answers. If ya got a laugh on my lack of knowledge that's all good.
Pedaling Fool
10-10-2015, 15:35
If you wear a proper bee suit they can not sting you.
You can brush the bees out of the way when putting the hive back together.
I think honey from traveling bees for pollination is harvested, blueberry honey would be wonderful.
An excluder is available so the bees can get into the hive but not out.
Still a lot more serious stuff to worry about.
MHOEven with a proper fitting bee suit you will get stung or in the least the bee will attempt to sting you. It doesn't matter if the bee stings you or not, just them putting their stinger into the bee suit will cause them to die -- they can't extract their stinger from the suit, in the same way they can't extract their stinger from your skin. All beekeepers get stung. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?238725-Stung-through-a-bee-suit
But far more are killed when the beekeeper opens and closes the hive, by simply crushing them. Of course no one talks about this, not that it's an "unspoken truth", it's just not an important thing that most people consider. I've watched these things up close quite a bit, not just on video, and I'm a witness to many bees getting crushed during this process. Trust me, many bees were crushed in the making of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d55cSiY4P0
Bee keeping ain't a victim-less occupation/hobby, it's just that no one really cares, at least I've never heard anyone mention it.
P.S. many beekeepers do brush them away, but they come back so quickly that many still get crushed. It would take a lot of time to make sure none were crushed.
Pedaling Fool
10-10-2015, 16:02
Ha, ha... I found someone who asked the question: How many bees do you smoosh?
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?271206-How-many-bees-do-you-smoosh
fiddlehead
10-10-2015, 20:04
It seems weird that this is news. It also doesn't seem like much of a feat if you are being supplied all the time.
Interesting that it is now considered somewhat mainstream.
Back in '96, I gave up meat for about 2 years.
I also started running ultras during this time.
My parent's family doctor found this out and told my parents that I really needed to start eating meat again if I was going to be running these long races and doing thru-hikes, or I could die.
Admit-tingly, he as in his late 80's at the time.