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EVC
10-10-2015, 21:12
I'm trying to decide between a single-wall or a double-wall style tent. I'm wondering which, if either, is easier to keep dry during a multi-day hike in rain. I've never used a single-wall tent.


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Tipi Walter
10-10-2015, 21:39
You will stay drier in a double wall tent in a prolonged rainstorm. The main reason is due to inner condensation whereby a single wall will "mist" or drip water droplets onto you and your gear. If conditions are right this will even happen under a tarp.

Plus, when a pounding rain hits your single wall shelter, many campers swear that their tents actually leak or get penetrated by the pounding rain water. This will not happen in a double wall tent, even though the inner tent can and will get moist.

In cold weather with high humidity and/or sleet or snow a single wall shelter begins to fail. Even my double wall Hillebergs have a tough time of it when conditions are terrible.

On one January trip I was in a 153 hour rainstorm at 35F to 40F in the mountains of North Carolina, a sure test of any shelter.

The weight of a shelter is not the most important thing---the most important thing is if will keep you dry in all conditions for however long you're out. "Keeping dry" means none of your gear rubs up against a wet inner wall of the tent, especially the foot of your sleeping bag.

Charlocity2
10-10-2015, 23:14
I'd like to hear others weigh in, but when pitching DURING rain, I think a tent style that let's you pitch the fly first, then pitch the canopy (under the fly) may help you get sheltered sooner, and drier.

Franco
10-11-2015, 00:33
Yes, some may think of single wall simply because you don't have an inner (tent) to get wet during pitching but there are double wall tents that pitch fly first and or both together.
Another feature that comes handy is large vestibule (if two walls) to get changed in and dump muddy gear in as well as drip free entry so your floor does not flood when you need to get in and out.
My Tent for that is the Tarptent Strato Spire.
I use the 2 but if usually hiking solo the SS1 will do.

Of course I am biased but it does work...
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Franco
10-11-2015, 00:36
BTW, with the TT shelter you can un-clip the inner from the inside when it is set up so if still raining or the fly is wet , just un-clip, shove the inner into the pack then get dressed ,pack up and go outside to take the fly down (already fully dressed)

MuddyWaters
10-11-2015, 04:45
Best for rain is an inner that can be pitched under the fly after fly is set up. Keeps inner dry when setting up and taking down, and you also should be able to stuff your wet fly on the outside of your pack so as not to get the rest of your gear wet with it inside. Packing up in rain sucks also if not enough room to move around under the fly, ie solo tents.

Having an inner reduces you contacting that condensation coated fly on the inside, and can reduce the condensation and mist effect.

daddytwosticks
10-11-2015, 12:49
Definitely a double wall. My Hubba NX-1 can pitch fly first with the footprint. Then it's a simple matter of setting up the inner without it getting wet. The side entry vestibule is configured in such a way as to prevent rain from getting in when entering/exiting. Typical non-double wall tarptents have the inner/flooring attached to the fly. When you take down the wet tarptent, everything including the netting and floor becomes a wet silnylon mess. With a true double wall tent, keep the wet fly and footprint in your pack's outer pocket and stuff that dry inner away inside your pack. Yes, I have owned a Contral and one of Judy's (Lightheart) products. Just my opinion and experiences. :)

Franco
10-11-2015, 16:50
That is why, for rainy weather use, I suggested the StratoSpire 2 for the versatility of setting it up dry but being able to detach the inner, pack that up and then get out in the weather .
However for general use the single wall models should not be dismissed.
In our range the single wall Double Rainbow outsell,by far, each of the eight double wall models we have .
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Venchka
10-11-2015, 17:34
That's very good to know Franco. Thanks.

Wayne


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Slo-go'en
10-11-2015, 17:56
The question was what is best for a MULTI-DAY rain. A double wall would have the advantage so long as the wet fly can be packed separately and the inside can be taken down without getting it wet. Which might be easier said then done.

The inside wall of a double wall tent is usually no-see-um netting. While this might be enough to reduce getting wet due to misting during a heavy rain, it will get wet from the misting if it lasts long enough. If you can't keep the floor of the tent dry due to water running under it or being on wet ground, then everything is going to get wet when you pack it anyway.

When you get stuck in a multi-day rain event, everything is going to get wet eventually. I don't think it matters all that much which way you go.

rafe
10-11-2015, 18:29
I agree that a double walled tent is better in a prolonged rain. Never once got even slightly wet in either of my old Eureka double-walled tents, or in other (no-name) road-camping dome tents with rain fly.

cbr6fs
10-11-2015, 19:37
I'm trying to decide between a single-wall or a double-wall style tent. I'm wondering which, if either, is easier to keep dry during a multi-day hike in rain. I've never used a single-wall tent.


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Tough one as it really depends on the tent and it's design, couple of examples

Lets say it's raining heavily but there is no wind for both scenarios.

1/ You're in a double walled tent with everything zipped up and closed
Absolutely no doubt you will get a LOT of condensation during the night

2/ You're in a single wall tent that is designed to sit off the ground slightly to give better ventilation
You will have a LOT less condensation in this scenario

Of course you could open a door on your double wall and get good ventilation, or it could be a poorly designed single skin tent that offers poor ventilation.

There are no hard and fast rules, anyone that has a a clear cut opinion like say is talking nonsense "You will stay drier in a double wall tent in a prolonged rainstorm" is talking nonsense or they have little to no experience in modern single wall tents.

With either a dw or a sw tent ventilation is absolutely crucial to keeping condensation away, this makes more of a difference that if the tent has a inner or not.

Personally i have single (Zpacks Duplex) and double wall (Tarptent SS2) tents, i've pitched both in very wet conditions and i've had less of a condensation problem inside the Duplex, BUT there is very little wind protection with the Duplex as it's designed to be pitched with the outer a couple of inches off the ground.
So it borders from a nice relaxing breeze to being windy enough to blow my map around inside the tent.

Lastly,
If you do get condensation then it's easily fixed especially if there are 2 of you.
Have a cloth handy inside the tent, if any of you wake up during the night then quickly wipe down the inside of the fly sheet

MuddyWaters
10-11-2015, 20:45
You are going to be wet on rainy days, from the time you get dressed, till the time you go to sleep.
Not really that different from hiking in hot humid weather when you think about it.

Your goal, is to manage to keep critical insulation dry enough to do its job, especially at night, to get you to safety, ie the next town.
For many, this means depending on shelters when it rains, even camping out in one for a few days if necessary.

Given the option, you CAN stretch 3 days food into 6 easily, if it means not putting yourself in a life threatening situation where you cant get dry and warm.

rafe
10-11-2015, 21:39
There are no hard and fast rules, anyone that has a a clear cut opinion like say is talking nonsense "You will stay drier in a double wall tent in a prolonged rainstorm" is talking nonsense or they have little to no experience in modern single wall tents.

That was me, and I stand by what I said. Many, many nights in hard rain in both double-wall and single-wall tents, though my Tarptent Rainbow is relatively new. Most of my hiking career was with double-wall tents.

You seem to agree that ventilation is critical to avoiding condensation. Yet that's exactly where double-wall tents have it over single wall -- they ventilate without letting rain in. Moisture has a chance to escape without collecting on the ceiling of the tent. QED. There's no easy way to do that in a single-wall tent. The Tarptent Rainbow leaves a narrow slot open around the bottom perimeter of the tent, which is fine as far as it goes, but not nearly as good as having a mesh ceiling and a rain fly above that.

Casey & Gina
10-11-2015, 22:25
We have a Big Agnes Scout UL2, a very light single wall tent. It had less issues camping in steady all-night rain than it did another time on a very humid but dry night. Either time was not a real problem - the inside of the tent got a bit damp. Easy enough to ignore, or a small towel takes quick care of it. We stayed dry. In a double wall I think the condensation would be the same, it would just be on the other side of some mesh. If the tent were larger in size or contained less people, it would probably condense less, given equivalent ventilation. A double wall tent gives more ventilation possibilities, but they are not always usable in rain. I think the Scout, with it's wraparound mesh with an awning protecting it on the outside, and additional vent on the top of the back, has excellent ventilation, better than my Kelty double wall tent would be if I used it in the rain (disclaimer - I never did). I feel like (without testing) the best ventilation is probably in tents with a small rain fly over a top mesh panel, which does not extend too far down the sides, so that a breeze moves through the top of the tent. But I think the design of the Scout is great for a single wall and imagine there are other great designs out there too.

Pitching in the rain was no problem - I have a footprint so I stake that down first - then it is quick to then take the tent out and put it over the same stakes, taking care to ensure the awning is pulled out over the mesh openings aforementioned. The next matter of business is getting the front end propped up on a pole and staked down, followed by the back - during this process the awning is hanging down over the mesh so no water is able to get in. Once done, my wife and gear head into the tent and she starts getting things set up, and then I go around and stake out the awning to allow ventilation. I have been pleased with the ease of this process.

What I don't like, is packing up the following morning. A double wall where I could stay under the fly while taking down the inside tent sounds dreamy. If the ground were wet under the tent, I imagine I could still towel off the bottom of the tent decently, then pack it up in a dry place, then pack the wet fly somewhere else. I don't think that wouldn't work with my Kelty, though - the poles are supported by the base of the inner tent. So when I pack up I just end up with a soggy mess stuffed into the sack, and then some water ends up on the inside of the tent by the time it is pitched again. This isn't a huge volume of water though, and use of the footprint keeps most mud or debris off of the tent (rain is the first thing that made me really grateful I bothered carrying a footprint). So when pitched again, first thing to do when heading inside is to towel down the inside. It's not a lot of water though, and could probably be just as easily ignored. Your wet gear and self is carrying in more water when you get in.

I'm happy to carry the lighter weight of the single wall and do not feel it is a big disadvantage.

MuddyWaters
10-11-2015, 22:32
Choose site wisely, ie soft duff, grassy areas, and water soaks in and will not run under your shelter getting the inner wet.

Avoid pitch on hard ground (most established well used sites) during rain, that invites more splatter and runoff on surface.

Imagine if you could sleep under a 20 x 20 A frame tarp. Would you want an inner or not? Obviously there are compromises made between size and weight, and ventillation, and moisuture control ability.

lkmi
10-11-2015, 22:33
Also consider a hammock with a tarp. You can set up the tarp first; then you and your gear stay dry as you set up the hammock and do other camp prep. Take down in reverse; and only the tarp is wet and has to stay on the outside of your pack. And, if you use snakeskins on the tarp, it's amazing how easy it is to wrap up, even in a downpour.

Gambit McCrae
10-12-2015, 08:15
I have the Strat2. It has protected me on countless nights from absolute gully washers. I have never taken the inner out but I have set it back up in evenings and have to do a little dry out but nothing major.

I have a Hilleberg which has equally protected me. both of which are 2 wall tents.

cbr6fs
10-12-2015, 12:18
That was me, and I stand by what I said. Many, many nights in hard rain in both double-wall and single-wall tents, though my Tarptent Rainbow is relatively new. Most of my hiking career was with double-wall tents.

You seem to agree that ventilation is critical to avoiding condensation. Yet that's exactly where double-wall tents have it over single wall -- they ventilate without letting rain in. Moisture has a chance to escape without collecting on the ceiling of the tent. QED. There's no easy way to do that in a single-wall tent. The Tarptent Rainbow leaves a narrow slot open around the bottom perimeter of the tent, which is fine as far as it goes, but not nearly as good as having a mesh ceiling and a rain fly above that.

rafe,

Absolutely, ventilation makes a massive difference.
I'm failing to see how double wall tents have more ventilation than single wall though :confused:

Moisture does collect on the outer fly of double wall tents, just as it does for single wall.
Some double wall tents have a mesh inner that does little to stop any droplets that may fall, others have solid panels.

The slope angle of the fabric also makes a massive difference, with something like a mid the angle is very steep so any condensation runs down quickly.
With something like the trailstar in a low pitch the moisture is more likely to fall on you than run down the fly.

Then there is fabric choice, in my experience silnylon tends to "hold on" to moisture a lot more than CF

My point is there are no hard fast rules here, some double wall tents are terrible for condensation, as are some single walled ones.
By the same token some single wall tents have more ventilation than you'd ever need, likewise with some double walled.


But een in the worst case scenario a quick wipe of the inside of the fly with a cloth or towel soon solves the problem.
Something that's not as easy to do with a double wall btw

MuddyWaters
10-12-2015, 12:28
rafe,)

Absolutely, ventilation makes a massive difference.
I'm failing to see how double wall tents have more ventilation than single wall though :confused:

Moisture does collect on the outer fly of double wall tents, just as it does for single wall.
Some double wall tents have a mesh inner that does little to stop any droplets that may fall, others have solid panels.

The slope angle of the fabric also makes a massive difference, with something like a mid the angle is very steep so any condensation runs down quickly.
With something like the trailstar in a low pitch the moisture is more likely to fall on you than run down the fly.

Then there is fabric choice, in my experience silnylon tends to "hold on" to moisture a lot more than CF

My point is there are no hard fast rules here, some double wall tents are terrible for condensation, as are some single walled ones.
By the same token some single wall tents have more ventilation than you'd ever need, likewise with some double walled.


But een in the worst case scenario a quick wipe of the inside of the fly with a cloth or towel soon solves the problem.
Something that's not as easy to do with a double wall btw

Double wall trap a layer of warmer air between the inner and outer, which reduces the internal condensation on the fly, as well as the inner protects from some misting.

Tipi Walter
10-12-2015, 13:01
The question was what is best for a MULTI-DAY rain. A double wall would have the advantage so long as the wet fly can be packed separately and the inside can be taken down without getting it wet. Which might be easier said then done.

The inside wall of a double wall tent is usually no-see-um netting. While this might be enough to reduce getting wet due to misting during a heavy rain, it will get wet from the misting if it lasts long enough. If you can't keep the floor of the tent dry due to water running under it or being on wet ground, then everything is going to get wet when you pack it anyway.

When you get stuck in a multi-day rain event, everything is going to get wet eventually. I don't think it matters all that much which way you go.

To point one, packing a wet fly separating from the inner. I've never done this mainly because the whole wad is wet by this time---the inner tent canopy is moist with condensation, the tent floor is wet and muddy, and the fly of course is soaked. I just wad up the whole bundle and put in my stuff sack. When I get to camp later in the day I set up fast and shake the inner tent canopy vigorously to dislodge water droplets and then paper towel off the floor to pull out any small puddles. This is necessary for both double wall and single wall tents.

To point two, no tent of mine will ever have unsealable mesh for an inner tent canopy.

And point three, "everything is going to get wet eventually" is just not true. If it were I would've been dead long ago. The tent gets soaked and some hiking clothing, but nothing else. My down parka and down bag and sleeping socks and 80% of my cold weather clothing stays dry no matter what. (Haven't fallen into a cold river yet like those guys routinely do on Alaskan Survival Race show).


I agree that a double walled tent is better in a prolonged rain. Never once got even slightly wet in either of my old Eureka double-walled tents, or in other (no-name) road-camping dome tents with rain fly.

And no one mentions a prolonged COLD rain or a prolonged trip at 0F or below. This is when condensation really can get bad. Thick inner frost on the tent walls. Severe fly "weeping" on the inside of the fly. Don't jostle the fly or you'll get a downpour or ice or water, hence the need for a double wall tent. The inner fly gets 60 or 70% of this moisture, the inner tent canopy gets the other 30%, numbers I can live with.


rafe,

Absolutely, ventilation makes a massive difference.
I'm failing to see how double wall tents have more ventilation than single wall though :confused:

Moisture does collect on the outer fly of double wall tents, just as it does for single wall.
Some double wall tents have a mesh inner that does little to stop any droplets that may fall, others have solid panels.

The slope angle of the fabric also makes a massive difference, with something like a mid the angle is very steep so any condensation runs down quickly.
With something like the trailstar in a low pitch the moisture is more likely to fall on you than run down the fly.

Then there is fabric choice, in my experience silnylon tends to "hold on" to moisture a lot more than CF

My point is there are no hard fast rules here, some double wall tents are terrible for condensation, as are some single walled ones.
By the same token some single wall tents have more ventilation than you'd ever need, likewise with some double walled.


But even in the worst case scenario a quick wipe of the inside of the fly with a cloth or towel soon solves the problem.
Something that's not as easy to do with a double wall btw

You makes some good points although I don't see ventilation making a massive difference when there is no ventilation no matter what you do. It all depends on air humidity, wind speed and air temperature. When all these factors go south, no amount of unzipped doors or vents will matter. As in: It's cold and there's high humidity and there's no wind.

A double wall tent obviously has a protective canopy (no mesh please) which allows the saturated fly to drip its moisture either down the wall of the fly or onto the solid canopy---no drips inside, please!

In terrible conditions (think a foot of wet snow with air temps at around 25F---and you're stuck inside the tent for a day), you want the most protection you can get. The fly got saturated long ago, and now the inner canopy is starting to get droplets---but at least I avoided the worst of the fly water with my inner canopy. And it's true, both will get wet if it's bad enough.

Thing is, popular single wall tents nowadays are tiny affairs and the main rule in all this talk is NO PART OF YOUR GEAR or your sleeping bag SHOULD TOUCH ANY PART of the wall of your tent, whether single or double. When a single wall weeps as bad as it does, once you touch it you or your nice nice items get wet. Not good.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/On-Rocky-Flats/i-92wTSSS/0/L/AKTO%20WINTER%202015%20035-L.jpg
I used an Akto tent recently during a warmish April snowstorm and tried it without the solid inner tent. It has 3 good sized vents fore and aft and one on the top arch. I woke up to a wet sauna mess. The inner tent would've kept me 70 or 80% drier. And here's the thing, in a bad storm or butt cold rain with 50mph winds there's no option for venting like an unzipped door to keep you ventilated. You're socked in for the duration and so give us a full report in the morning.

colorado_rob
10-12-2015, 14:38
You will stay drier in a double wall tent in a prolonged rainstorm. The main reason is due to inner condensation whereby a single wall will "mist" or drip water droplets onto you and your gear. If conditions are right this will even happen under a tarp.

Plus, when a pounding rain hits your single wall shelter, many campers swear that their tents actually leak or get penetrated by the pounding rain water. This will not happen in a double wall tent, even though the inner tent can and will get moist.

In cold weather with high humidity and/or sleet or snow a single wall shelter begins to fail. Even my double wall Hillebergs have a tough time of it when conditions are terrible.

On one January trip I was in a 153 hour rainstorm at 35F to 40F in the mountains of North Carolina, a sure test of any shelter.

The weight of a shelter is not the most important thing---the most important thing is if will keep you dry in all conditions for however long you're out. "Keeping dry" means none of your gear rubs up against a wet inner wall of the tent, especially the foot of your sleeping bag.True all of this. I finally bought an UL single wall tent about half way through my AT hike. Sure enough, in very strong prolonged rains it failed to keep me completely dry, quite simply because heavy rain drops on hitting the outside caused a slight misting of the inevitable condensation on the inside of the single wall. My trusty double-wall (my latest is the popular Big Agnes FC2) never failed me under similar heavy rains. Nor has any other DW tent I've owned ever had this problem (probably 15 tents in 50 years of backpacking).

Do I regret buying the single wall? Nope. I stayed dry enough. but not bone dry like in a good double wall. So in fact I do disagree with the last statement: for me the 1.5 pounds saved for my AT hike was worth being slightly wet inside my tent a couple times (and it was only a couple times). I never got wet enough for it to be any problem.

EVC
10-12-2015, 14:50
I keep going back to the Hilleburg tents for their incredible strength and 2 wall design but they weigh a TON.

From the replies so far, it seems like the best tent for setting up AND taking down in the rain is something where I can pitch the rain fly first and then attach the inner.

After spending the last 3 days in rain, the ability to pitch the shelter without the inside getting soaked from rainfall has become a key requirement for my next tent.

I thought the single wall would have won this contest but it seems condensation on the inside along with having to pack its wet parts along with the dry counters the original benefit.

With my current 2 wall, I have one bag for the fly and a separate bag for the inner. That was working as long as I was careful not to pitch the inner while it was raining heavy.


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Tipi Walter
10-12-2015, 14:56
True all of this. I finally bought an UL single wall tent about half way through my AT hike. Sure enough, in very strong prolonged rains it failed to keep me completely dry, quite simply because heavy rain drops on hitting the outside caused a slight misting of the inevitable condensation on the inside of the single wall. My trusty double-wall (my latest is the popular Big Agnes FC2) never failed me under similar heavy rains. Nor has any other DW tent I've owned ever had this problem (probably 15 tents in 50 years of backpacking).

Do I regret buying the single wall? Nope. I stayed dry enough. but not bone dry like in a good double wall. So in fact I do disagree with the last statement: for me the 1.5 pounds saved for my AT hike was worth being slightly wet inside my tent a couple times (and it was only a couple times). I never got wet enough for it to be any problem.

To your first point of "misting"---Alot of single wall tent users swear this misting is actual rain water forcing itself thru the fly fabric, and I tend to agree. It's a big discussion on the TarpTent forums. I notice on my super duper Hilleberg Kerlon 1800 fly that in a pounding rain---we're talking buckets of rain hitting the tent like a hail attack---I get small water droplets coming inside. I think the rain is forcing itself thru the hydrostatic head of the fabric. No big deal as I only feel it in the vestibule and it never soaks the inner canopy.

To your last point: Did you ever hit a long stretch of terrible weather (like in January) in your single wall and had to keep using it without any breaks? I'd be interested in your feedback.

colorado_rob
10-12-2015, 15:49
To your first point of "misting"---Alot of single wall tent users swear this misting is actual rain water forcing itself thru the fly fabric, and I tend to agree. It's a big discussion on the TarpTent forums. I notice on my super duper Hilleberg Kerlon 1800 fly that in a pounding rain---we're talking buckets of rain hitting the tent like a hail attack---I get small water droplets coming inside. I think the rain is forcing itself thru the hydrostatic head of the fabric. No big deal as I only feel it in the vestibule and it never soaks the inner canopy.

To your last point: Did you ever hit a long stretch of terrible weather (like in January) in your single wall and had to keep using it without any breaks? I'd be interested in your feedback.Really hard to tell if it's coming through or simply shaking off a few milligrams of condensation... If I make a bucket out of the tent fabric it seems waterproof under that head, but a large falling droplet would generate more pressure, I would suppose.

To your last question, and it is very appropriate to this discussion: I would definitely NOT rely on a single wall tent (now) for a long, extended outing with no opportunities for a break. But on the AT, at least, say, late March through early October, with drying out/warming up opportunities (towns, road crossings) only a day or two away, I would risk getting slightly wet a time or two for the big weight savings. My Zpacks Hexamid solo+, including cords and ground sheet (polycro) weighs in at 16.0 ounces. Along the AT this works great; if many days of rain are in store, one can always switch to using shelters for a couple nights.

In January, no way no matter what, I would be using my doulble-wall 3+ season or 4 season tents in winter or winter-possible conditions. Well, I take it back: I do own a Bibler Eldorado single-wall, "todd-tek" fabric, that has served me well on many high/cold/snowy conditions, like -25F at 18000 feet in 50+ MPH winds. But this is a completely different type of single wall fabric, and fairly heavy, 5 pounds for a 28 sq. ft. tent. Plus, where/when it gets used, there is no way water can exist in a liquid form....

BTW: I, too, love those Hilliberg tents, I keep almost buying one, but I wind up just using one of my MHW Trango's (we have the T3 and T4), or the Bibler (when solo) just because they have always worked perfectly. I did borrow a Hilliberg once, great tents. I think it was a Namaji 3, something like that.

rafe
10-12-2015, 17:52
My Eureka Solitaire is a tiny one-man tent with a mesh top and a rainfly above that. I can't tell you how many rainstorms and ice-storms I slept through in that tent, but I can tell you I slept soundly every time, and after the first or second such storm, never worried about it again. I used that tent from 1989 to 2005 and hiked about 2/3 of the AT with it.

Packing up a wet tent is a PITA regardless of whether it's single walled or double-walled. My Tarptent is roomy enough to hold my pack. The tent, in its stuff sack, rides outside the pack when I hike. So, no problem: get dressed for the rain, stuff the pack, jump outside, take the tent down, roll it up, and go. Taking down and rolling up the Rainbow takes about two minutes. Setting it up takes about as long.

cbr6fs
10-12-2015, 18:03
Double wall trap a layer of warmer air between the inner and outer, which reduces the internal condensation on the fly,

Sorry but i completely disagree, where does this warmer air come from?
How can a thin silnylon type material insulated this warmth?

Condensation forms because the outer surface of the fabric is colder than the inner surface IF what you say is true then it'd cause more condensation not less



as well as the inner protects from some misting.


Again this depends on the tent, i've had misting on double wall tents and no misting on single wall tents in similar conditions.
As i say there is no white or black here, a lot depends on the tents design, use and materials

cbr6fs
10-12-2015, 18:20
You makes some good points although I don't see ventilation making a massive difference when there is no ventilation no matter what you do. It all depends on air humidity, wind speed and air temperature. When all these factors go south, no amount of unzipped doors or vents will matter. As in: It's cold and there's high humidity and there's no wind.

I don't see how you can have no ventilation
Even if you found some way of vacuum sealing your tent to the ground, most tents have vents built in.

Then there are the doors.
Personally i prefer to sleep with the doors open if possible, even if it's raining as long as there is no wind i can have both sides of my Duplex open without getting wet.



A double wall tent obviously has a protective canopy (no mesh please) which allows the saturated fly to drip its moisture either down the wall of the fly or onto the solid canopy---no drips inside, please!

Again though this depends on the tent.
Like i said above i prefer to sleep with the doors open, my thinking is that because i don't get out much these days i want to wake up to a great view, plus i enjoy opening my eyes during the night and seeing the view.
So for me if the conditions were bad to NEED a solid inner then i just wouldn't bother



In terrible conditions (think a foot of wet snow with air temps at around 25F---and you're stuck inside the tent for a day), you want the most protection you can get. The fly got saturated long ago, and now the inner canopy is starting to get droplets---but at least I avoided the worst of the fly water with my inner canopy. And it's true, both will get wet if it's bad enough.

How often does this happen to most hikers of here?

I can see what you mean, but what's the point of carry a 4kg tent when the hiker isn't going to see the conditions you describe?



Thing is, popular single wall tents nowadays are tiny affairs and the main rule in all this talk is NO PART OF YOUR GEAR or your sleeping bag SHOULD TOUCH ANY PART of the wall of your tent, whether single or double. When a single wall weeps as bad as it does, once you touch it you or your nice nice items get wet. Not good.

You are using any possible negative without adding the positives into the equation with this though

How about the fact that most single skin tents are a LOT bigger internally than their double skin comparisons?
How about double skin tents that use silnylon floors, that have the surface friction something like trying to moonwalk on a bouncy castle when you're covered with baby oil?

Can you honestly put your hand on your heart and say that you've NEVER had a damp sleeping bag in a double wall tent because the inner slid or the outer sagged during the night and your sleeping bag touched it?



I used an Akto tent recently during a warmish April snowstorm and tried it without the solid inner tent. It has 3 good sized vents fore and aft and one on the top arch. I woke up to a wet sauna mess. The inner tent would've kept me 70 or 80% drier. And here's the thing, in a bad storm or butt cold rain with 50mph winds there's no option for venting like an unzipped door to keep you ventilated. You're socked in for the duration and so give us a full report in the morning.

Yet most alpine 4 season tents used on Everest attempts are single skin ;)

colorado_rob
10-12-2015, 19:17
Yet most alpine 4 season tents used on Everest attempts are single skin ;)Untrue. Very few are. Where do you get your information....

Casey & Gina
10-12-2015, 19:34
If your sleeping bag outer is made of waterproof breathable fabric (Pertex Shield), does it matter if it touches a surface with condensation?

Tipi Walter
10-12-2015, 19:54
How often does this happen to most hikers of here?

I can see what you mean, but what's the point of carry a 4kg tent when the hiker isn't going to see the conditions you describe?



How about the fact that most single skin tents are a LOT bigger internally than their double skin comparisons?

Can you honestly put your hand on your heart and say that you've NEVER had a damp sleeping bag in a double wall tent because the inner slid or the outer sagged during the night and your sleeping bag touched it?



Yet most alpine 4 season tents used on Everest attempts are single skin ;)

I'll let Colorado Rob handle your last point; suffice to say I've seen many pics of Everest basecamps and pics of mountaineering tents and most of them are stout double wall affairs in the North Face Mountain/Mt Hardwear Trango style. Please scroll thru these pics and show me the single wall tents in an Everest basecamp.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mt+everest+basecamp&biw=1280&bih=839&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMI6uefg4--yAIVA3k-Ch1yZwCn#imgrc=_

See below for further pics.

But to point 1: Hikers here on Whiteblaze face these conditions all the time, and suffer because of it. Just do a check on those preparing to thruhike the AT in winter and you'll see alot of town bails and alot of laundry mat visits. Many rely on the AT shelter box system so they won't have to set up camp or consistently rely on their small shelters.

Point 2: Single wall tents are A LOT BIGGER than double walls?? This just doesn't ring true as current backpackers are glomming onto ridiculously small single wall tents like the Gatewood Cape or other Six Moon Designs---(and by single wall I mean tents with a full mesh inner--called a hybrid double wall)---

http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/tents.html

Or check out some of the ZPacks solo tents---

http://www.zpacks.com/shelters.shtml

To your last point of getting a moist bag shell because my bag touched the wet inner canopy---Yes, this has happened numerous times on short stubby Hilleberg tents like the Nammatj and the Staika (happens with the Nallo and the Allak and the Soulo and the Akto and many others too)---It's the main reason I went with the vertical head and foot walls of the Keron. As noted, no part of your sleeping bag should touch the tent wall, whether single wall or double.

And btw, here are some random googled pics from Mt Everest and the South Col camps---You can't camp much higher than this---See
https://www.google.com/search?q=everest+south+col&biw=1280&bih=839&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMI9vjYv4--yAIVgW8-Ch3TbAOH#imgrc=_

Most of the tents are not single wall. Another good example---
https://www.adventurepeaks.com/shop/everest-north-col-lhakpa-ri-and-naya-kanga/

Most of these guys have learned the hard way and wouldn't be carrying heavier gear if it didn't work.

Dogwood
10-13-2015, 01:19
I'm trying to decide between a single-wall or a double-wall style tent. I'm wondering which, if either, is easier to keep dry during a multi-day hike in rain. I've never used a single-wall tent. ...


...A double wall would have the advantage so long as the wet fly can be packed separately and the inside can be taken down without getting it wet. Which might be easier said then done.

...If you can't keep the floor of the tent dry due to water running under it or being on wet ground, then everything is going to get wet when you pack it anyway.

When you get stuck in a multi-day rain event, everything is going to get wet eventually. I don't think it matters all that much which way you go.


From the way the OP posed his question, what I got, was him asking which style tent, two wall or single wall was easier to keep dry in a multi day hike in rain? If it's raining all day including when setting up or breaking down, both styles, or tent some components will get wet. Maybe I misinterpreted Slo-go-en's statement some but I took when he referred to "everything" he was talking about everything regarding the tent. Now, how they function can be different.

colorado_rob
10-13-2015, 08:29
I'll let Colorado Rob handle your last point; suffice to say I've seen many pics of Everest basecamps and pics of mountaineering tents and most of them are stout double wall affairs in the North Face Mountain/Mt Hardwear Trango style.Yep, MHW trangos and TNF VE's znc Mtn's still dominate on big high mountains, as you say, very stout double-wall tents. There are two single wall tents (maybe more) that are used, the old tried-and-true Bibler's (now owned by Black Diamond) and the MHW EV series (very small tents for perching up very high for fast-light experidions). But the Trango's and North Face VE's tend to dominate on big mountains, though on my recent trips up high we did see a good percentage of Hilleberg's.

martinb
10-14-2015, 13:15
I've gotten wet in all of my single wall tents during multi-day rain trips. Most of them suffer from poor ventilation, when closed, and sagging issues no matter how taught-pitched, initially. It's the trade off one makes for less weight. I got weary of this trade off and now use a Hilleberg Allak. It's been bulletproof in days-of-rain type hikes in the East. Ventilation is superb and I rarely experience condensation except during very cold temps (teens).

Unlike almost all single wall tents the Allak has two huge half moon vents, at it's apex, covered by an umbrella fly. As we know, heat rises and during times of little to no wind, if trapped heat can't escape it leads to additional condensation. So, while that single wall might ventilate well with the doors open and wind blowing, it's going to be not-so-good with everything closed up and no wind (and or with rain/cooler temps). Additionally, since the vestibule doors are double zipped I can open the top of the doors for even more ventilation.

This is a laying down view of one side of the vents
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/boxered/hberg/h937530.jpg

Tipi Walter
10-14-2015, 14:08
I've gotten wet in all of my single wall tents during multi-day rain trips. Most of them suffer from poor ventilation, when closed, and sagging issues no matter how taught-pitched, initially. It's the trade off one makes for less weight. I got weary of this trade off and now use a Hilleberg Allak. It's been bulletproof in days-of-rain type hikes in the East. Ventilation is superb and I rarely experience condensation except during very cold temps (teens).

Unlike almost all single wall tents the Allak has two huge half moon vents, at it's apex, covered by an umbrella fly. As we know, heat rises and during times of little to no wind, if trapped heat can't escape it leads to additional condensation. So, while that single wall might ventilate well with the doors open and wind blowing, it's going to be not-so-good with everything closed up and no wind (and or with rain/cooler temps). Additionally, since the vestibule doors are double zipped I can open the top of the doors for even more ventilation.

This is a laying down view of one side of the vents
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/boxered/hberg/h937530.jpg

Another satisfied customer. I'm no salesman for Hilleberg and I have never worked for the company but I like your post. A buddy of mine got into the Allak and I took a few pics of his camp atop an open NC bald---

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/Six-Days-with-Little-Mitten-on/i-HkJX3qn/0/L/TRIP%20108%20125-L.jpg
Hoppin John packing up by his red Allak.

martinb
10-14-2015, 14:33
Walter, Looks like a familar spot. The Bob? I think I stayed in this very same camp this past June when I was up there.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/boxered/photo%202_zpsrxlwxmyb.jpg

Big time storm that night too. Shook the Allak pretty good but stayed completely dry.

Casey & Gina
10-14-2015, 14:37
I have been drooling over Hilleberg tents and contemplating a purchase for a while, but for some reason was gravitating towards the tunnel style models and was not really looking at the domes. (Tipi, I still have to read that other thread on Hillebergs - haven't forgotten just been busy!). Looking at the Allak lead me quickly to it's black label counterpart, the Staika, at a little over a pound heavier, and am really liking the way it looks on paper. It is perhaps the only 2-person Hilleberg that looks like it would accommodate a 50x77" sleeping surface comfortably, the rectangular inner floor leaving 6" extra space at the head and toe, plus a couple extra inches on either side. Plus the walls are pretty vertical so more of that footprint size is usable space. And like all Hillebergs, has the benefit of being able to mess with the inner tent while dry underneath of the outer tent. Looks like a very compelling option that I will have to give serious consideration to!

Tipi Walter
10-14-2015, 14:55
Walter, Looks like a familar spot. The Bob? I think I stayed in this very same camp this past June when I was up there.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/boxered/photo%202_zpsrxlwxmyb.jpg

Big time storm that night too. Shook the Allak pretty good but stayed completely dry.

You've got a perceptive eye. Yes, we had FOUR Hillebergs on the Bob for that trip--Two Allaks, an Akto and a Staika. See the trip here---

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/Six-Days-with-Little-Mitten-on/i-MdBZGJ5


I have been drooling over Hilleberg tents and contemplating a purchase for a while, but for some reason was gravitating towards the tunnel style models and was not really looking at the domes. (Tipi, I still have to read that other thread on Hillebergs - haven't forgotten just been busy!). Looking at the Allak lead me quickly to it's black label counterpart, the Staika, at a little over a pound heavier, and am really liking the way it looks on paper. It is perhaps the only 2-person Hilleberg that looks like it would accommodate a 50x77" sleeping surface comfortably, the rectangular inner floor leaving 6" extra space at the head and toe, plus a couple extra inches on either side. Plus the walls are pretty vertical so more of that footprint size is usable space. And like all Hillebergs, has the benefit of being able to mess with the inner tent while dry underneath of the outer tent. Looks like a very compelling option that I will have to give serious consideration to!

I have hundreds of nights in the Staika and it's a sweet little tent (or not so little to the ULers)---and it's solid and truly free standing and beefy and strong.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2006/Subzero-Blizzard-and-the-16th/i-zRd5mR6/0/L/adadadad-L.jpg
This pretty much shows the Staika in action at -10F on a ridgetop around 5,000 feet in December 2006. A lot of room for a solo backpacker and great vesti space for cooking and gear. The ONLY flaw in the design is the short stubbiness and the angled foot end of the yellow inner tent. In the right conditions and with the right down sleeping bag fully lofted atop a 2 or 3 inch pad the footbox of your bag will touch the possibly wet inner tent fabric.

1234
10-14-2015, 14:56
Hmmmm what works best? What does it matter you are soaked and when you get into your tent it will be wet on the inside. What to do with wet rain gear? what to do with wet cloths? How to maintain dryness in steady rain conditions? I have cuben fiber tarp and it does not leak or mist, it does however condensate even without sides. The bigger the better it is to separate wet from dry. After 3 days in a drizzle rain foggy hiking, everything gets wet. If it is cold you will be cold. Only solution, dry day and a fire to dry everything out, or get to town. Sunny days sorta works if you have a good breeze and it is warm. AT conditions in March April, are drizzle rain foggy impossible to stay dry weather conditions. If you get into your tent prior to rain it will be dry for that night. Most all tents. Next day is a different story. Thin lightweight tents wet out more easily like big Agnes fly creek, their steep sides help them stay dry in a down pour but if you are wet and touch the sides then the tent is wet. Most AT hikers camp near shelters where the tent spots are like bath tubes, your light weight tents will work for a month or so sitting in a puddle by the fiber loses it silicone and starts leaking. Best bet it to set up on slight hills on leaves, less mud and dirt all over the tent and no puddle to worry about. I perfer the gravel filled tent pads like in Maryland but few exist elsewhere. No splatter and no dirt and no puddles and flat. So I say all tents will perform fine if care is taken in setup, but all will fail during days of rain, as yourself will wet the inside.

Tipi Walter
10-14-2015, 15:04
Walter, Looks like a familar spot. The Bob? I think I stayed in this very same camp this past June when I was up there.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/boxered/photo%202_zpsrxlwxmyb.jpg

Big time storm that night too. Shook the Allak pretty good but stayed completely dry.

Let's go back to this pic. There's a neat about Hillebergs when the fecal matter hits the Big Floor Fan---the wonderful guylines and cord tensioners. Love 'em. There always there when you need them, and they are strong and have two attachment points on the tent for one peg. The Allak and Staika really can get cinched down when these guylines are set. Bombproof? Pretty much.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2008/Haw-Mountain-Windstorm-Trip-86/i-BRbMxLS/0/M/Trip%2086%20023-M.jpg
I was in a hell storm on Haw Knob at 5,500 feet in December 2008 and by morning I was ready to get the heck off this mountain as an all-night wind blew my little tent apart but it hung in there after some tremendous slaps, squirts, gonad slams, eyeball pinches, medulla spankings, forehead whaps, raccoon squeals, testicular mishaps and beaver howlings. Yes, even with the guylines taut the thing slammed back and forth and wanted to get flat but nothing broke, no poles bent, and I didn't even have to put big rocks on top of all the stakes. Amen, pass the gu gels and larabars.

Tipi Walter
10-14-2015, 15:24
Hmmmm what works best? What does it matter you are soaked and when you get into your tent it will be wet on the inside.

What to do with wet rain gear? what to do with wet cloths?

How to maintain dryness in steady rain conditions?

I have cuben fiber tarp and it does not leak or mist, it does however condensate even without sides. The bigger the better it is to separate wet from dry. After 3 days in a drizzle rain foggy hiking, everything gets wet. If it is cold you will be cold.

Only solution, dry day and a fire to dry everything out, or get to town.

Sunny days sorta works if you have a good breeze and it is warm. AT conditions in March April, are drizzle rain foggy impossible to stay dry weather conditions. If you get into your tent prior to rain it will be dry for that night. Most all tents. Next day is a different story. Thin lightweight tents wet out more easily like big Agnes fly creek, their steep sides help them stay dry in a down pour but if you are wet and touch the sides then the tent is wet.

Most AT hikers camp near shelters where the tent spots are like bath tubes, your light weight tents will work for a month or so sitting in a puddle by the fiber loses it silicone and starts leaking. Best bet it to set up on slight hills on leaves, less mud and dirt all over the tent and no puddle to worry about.

I perfer the gravel filled tent pads like in Maryland but few exist elsewhere. No splatter and no dirt and no puddles and flat. So I say all tents will perform fine if care is taken in setup, but all will fail during days of rain, as yourself will wet the inside.

Let's take some of your points one by one.

#1: Getting into a soaked tent at the end of the day is often the case, cuz you packed up a soaked tent that morning. No problem. Just set up what you have and once set shake it vigorously and then sponge out the floor before throwing your gear inside. I put my mostly dry ground cloth INSIDE my tent so the wet floor is not a problem as my ground cloth is dry.

#2: As soon as my tent is up and my pack thrown into the vestibule, I immediately lay out the inner ground cloth and unfurl the sleeping pad and sit inside while peeling off all my wet hiking clothes and wringing each of them out, socks included. Place them on the tent stuff sack in the vestibule---won't see them again until the next morning and yes they must be put back on. By this time I'm nearly naked and letting my body dry off.

As soon as I'm dry I put on my always-dry layers like merino tops and leggings and fleece jacket or whatever else. and my balaclave and/or fleece hat. Oh and my always dry smartwool socks. These items never get wet cuz I hike only in my wet hiking clothes and rain jacket etc.

#3: "After 3 days . . . everything is wet." "If it is cold, you will be cold." Never is everything wet, and not for long if it is cold will I be cold. If these statements were true I would've been dead a long time ago. Wet and Cold kills people, just study David Decareaux and his two sons.

You have to know when to push on or when to camp. You have to find windows of movement and camp early in terrible conditions. You can always dump your pack on a trail in the worst of a 35F deluge and sit there waiting for it to pass with your tent fly thrown over you like a tarp. In 30 minutes the worst of it may be over. In dangerous conditions you have to be willing to survey the land and decide to pull a zero day in your tent---tomorrow will be better.

#4: A fire to dry things out or go to a town? Well, the town option is the last resort in my opinion as it signals defeat in our relationship with Miss Nature---She gives us her best and all we have to do is stick with it. And a fire is a non-starter in the conditions we're talking about. And when the next day dawns sunny and cold, just put on your wet gear and hike it dry.

Sounds like to me that your overall "problem" is the unwillingness to carry enough clothing to keep one substantial set dry at all times, and to allow another set to be wet but used just for hiking.

If your shelter does not allows this scenario, then it is the shelter itself which is the problem.

martinb
10-14-2015, 15:36
Walter, the storm that hot the Bob that night was pretty bad. Wind gust around 50mph. Numerous branches were set free throughout this area. Then there was the bolt of lightning and instant thunder that made the hairs on my neck stand up. Worst storm I've been out in for a while. I don't think a single wall would have fared well.

BTW, the comical food hang leftover hardware is ridiculous. Why anyone would try to hang on a split branch stupefying.

Tipi Walter
10-14-2015, 15:55
Walter, the storm that hot the Bob that night was pretty bad. Wind gust around 50mph. Numerous branches were set free throughout this area. Then there was the bolt of lightning and instant thunder that made the hairs on my neck stand up. Worst storm I've been out in for a while. I don't think a single wall would have fared well.

BTW, the comical food hang leftover hardware is ridiculous. Why anyone would try to hang on a split branch stupefying.

The discarded not-well-hung bear lines on the Bob are a mess. Did you see the one with the blue beer bottle high in the tree?

Btw, we call Bob Mt the Tent Testing Facility. Had a Hilleberg tent pole on a Nammatj bend up there.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/The-Brush-Mountain-Hell-Ride/i-xMXfQwQ/0/L/trip%2096%20103-L.jpg
The results of a little Bob storm; my tent is in the back---a green Staika.

martinb
10-14-2015, 15:59
Walter, yeah. I made a half-rear attempt to get it down But it's stuck pretty good. Weren't the rangers up there? What do they do besides plant signs?

Tipi Walter
10-14-2015, 16:02
Walter, yeah. I made a half-rear attempt to get it down But it's stuck pretty good. Weren't the rangers up there? What do they do besides plant signs?

This sign was just put on the Bob and then stolen so it's gone. I called Rick Harris about it. Has the sign been replaced??

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/20-Days-on-Medicare/i-9GVqKwR/0/L/TRIP%20166%20502-L.jpg

martinb
10-14-2015, 16:15
I don't know, they were placed after I was there.

Anyway, back to the topic. OP, reconsider your idea of sitting out all day rains in a single wall. I've done it a number of times and can't recommend it. Get a double wall, with good ventilation, and don't worry if it is not super light.

Dogwood
10-15-2015, 00:49
I say read this by Will Reitveld. He did an excellent job of addressing condensation and ventilation issues of single wall shelters. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/single_wall_shelters_condensation_factors_tips.htm l Learned much from this and a whole lot more through personal use, observation, and experimentation with using three different single wall shelters in multi day rain, including humid wet east coast conditions, and even during some deep winter(SNOW!) mixed conditions over multiple days(many!).

With Gossamer Gear's The One, in spinnaker, and Mountain Laurel Designs Solo Mid, in Cuben fiber, and to a lesser extent Zpacks Hexamid in even lighter wt CF, I was able to control or avoid condensation.

Article Summary:Single-walled shelters are much lighter than double-walled tents and are a great way to save some serious weight. Almost all of the Backpacking Light staff routinely use some type of single-walled shelter for most of their trips. However, many people new to lightweight backpacking purchase a single-walled tent to reduce weight, and then get rid of it because "the condensation was terrible." This article will teach you the techniques that expert backpackers use to solve this problem.
Single-walled shelters are notorious for collecting condensation on the inside of the walls. There are many variables that determine whether - and how much - condensation will occur. Two campers can pitch the same tent in the same area on the same night and have totally different condensation scenarios, and we'll explain why below. Technique can help you avoid or minimize condensation, but tent design is very important too. And there are definitely situations where nothing can be done to avoid the dreaded drip.
When we describe condensation issues in our shelter reviews, or when readers discuss their experiences with condensation in our forums, keep in mind that differences in shelter design, campsite location, and shelter use are HUGE factors in condensation formation.
The message of this article is: if you use a single-walled shelter, it is imperative that you educate yourself about the factors that cause condensation, and learn the techniques to avoid or minimize condensation. There's no good reason to avoid using a single-walled shelter because it's "prone to condensation." Condensation is easy to manage and even avoid if you do the right things

Dogwood
10-15-2015, 00:58
I've always received much from Mark Verber too. Check out his gear reviews and specifically about various shelters and considerations. http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/shelter.html

I learned a valuable consideration from Mark regarding my lack of condensation issues in my single wall shelter use...I rarely heavily perspire in any of my shelters. There are many ways to increase ventilation with single wall shelters AND knowing where and when it's helpful to apply these is part of my single wall shelter use.

Franco
10-15-2015, 01:53
On several occasions I have seen folk getting out of their fully sealed "4 season" tents having had a cold wet night inside their 10F bags in 20f plus temps when I was a few meters away inside a single wall but well ventilated tent with a still dry sleeping bag and clothing.

Tipi Walter
10-15-2015, 07:57
Dogwood---
We can access that article here without having to pay for it---

http://eastonmountainproducts.com/pdf/condensation-article.pdf

Tipi Walter
10-15-2015, 08:40
I read thru the pdf link written by Will Rietveld and caught this short paragraph---

"SINGLE-WALLED VERSUS DOUBLE-WALLED
The main factor that makes a single walled shelter more prone to condensation than a double walled shelter is that the separation between
the inner environment of the tent and the outside environment is just a single layer of fabric. There’s no buffering between the inside and
outside environments, and as we have just shown, the tent walls “super cool” well below the ambient temperature, making it a “cold body” for the formation of film condensation. In contrast, a double wall tent has an air-permeable inner wall, a waterproof outer wall, and a layer of air in between. Moisture vapor passes through the inner wall into the space between the walls.

If ventilation between the walls is good, the moisture is whisked away, but if ventilation is restricted, condensation or frost is likely to occur on the inner surface of the tent fly. Also, the “semi-dead” air space between the inner and outer walls of the tent is a partial insulator, which keeps the area under the tent fly warmer, delaying condensation formation. This “semi-dead” air space also keeps the inner tent walls a lot warmer (compared to a single walled tent) and substantially delays condensation on the inside surface of the inner tent. Double wall tents work best if the inner wall is fabric and not mesh, and they are warmer inside too. I have measured temperatures inside a double wall tent that were as much as 17 °F warmer than the ambient temperature outside. A solid fabric inner tent sheds dripping condensation from an outer fly while a mesh inner tent can allow condensation to drip down into the interior of the tent." QUOTE FROM WILL RIETVELD

This quote available here---

http://eastonmountainproducts.com/pdf/condensation-article.pdf

From this one quote I am already convinced that a double wall tent is better and out-performs a single wall.

But here are some of his points:
** BPL staff use single wall shelters (because they are light).
** Single wall shelters are notorious for collecting condensation on the inside of the walls.
** Condensation is easy to manage and avoid if you do the right things. (But!! Read on).
** Types of single wall shelters.
** Causes of water vapor and night time cooling.
** See page 12 on the pdf and a pic of his tarp with heavy inside condensation. Even Will Rietveld apparently couldn't fix this problem (my take on it---my opinion only).

** eVent and Epic type tents.
** Best designs for condensation---mesh sides and high vents, etc.

SOLUTIONS
** Campsite selection.
** Weather conditions.
** Select the right shelter.
** Use available breezes.
** Wiping the tent walls with a pack towel. IMPORTANT.

FINAL QUOTE
"There are some conditions where condensation is unavoidable---like a steady rain or wet snow."

REALLY FINAL QUOTE
"If you live in a region where tent condensation is a major problem . . . .(My response: Think Southeast mountains of NC and TN in October thru April) . . ."If you don't want to deal with interior condensation in any climate, you should seriously consider getting a lightweight double wall tent."

It's what we've been saying all along.

geezin'
10-15-2015, 10:45
Dogwood---
We can access that article here without having to pay for it---

http://eastonmountainproducts.com/pdf/condensation-article.pdf

Thank you.