Base Layers

[jorge99s]

Anyone have a preference when it comes to wool or synthetic long sleeved base layers? I have the same UA cold-gear compression top for 10 years and it's not quite as warm as it once was. It's also not the lightest piece of clothing that I own either.

[ChrisJackson]

I like the merino wool from http://www.icebreaker.com/ a lot.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Merino wool (smartwool, terramar etc) is so much more comfortable, lighter, smells better and I think does better when damp. It's also so much more expensive and wears out almost comically fast if you treat it rough. I buy it whenever I come across it on clearance.

[cbr6fs]

The Merino is nice for cooler dry weather, i much prefer synthetic for warmer of wetter weather though.

When wet Merino takes an absolute age to dry, on a wet week hiking it's unlikely it'll dry out if it gets wet the first day.
It's also a fallacy that it offers any warmth when wetted out.
If it's slightly damp it will retain some warmth, but then so will most other baselayers

By far the worst situation i've used Merino wool in is warmer conditions, it doesn't wick sweat at all.
If your back sweats then your back stays wet.

With synthetic baselayers they breath better and dry out a LOT quicker.
Even if they wet out from rain, you can remove the garment, wring it out and it will be dry enough to retain a lot more warmth.

My Merino and wool clothing has all been regulated for the house or working on cars/bikes, for low exertion dry activities it's great, for hiking i don't really understand why it has such a following as in my experience it's a terrible terrible choice

[FlyFishNut]

W O O L! I'm phasing out all my synthetics for wool. It's more comfy, doesn't smell (harbor bacteria), great warmth and breathability, ---- I just cannot say enough about Wool.

I love Icebreaker (pricey), Stoic from Backcountry is great too and you can find it on sale (BTW i gave a friend a Stoic top and she wears it constantly for cold trail running), also worth noting is the LLBEAN "Cresta" Wool line of products. I have 3 of these in light and medium and they are super comfy and perform well and more cost affective.

I disagree - I believe that wool (Good Quality Wool) does wick sweat well.

[PcolaDawg]

Just got off a wet, somewhat chilly trail in NC and I used the Smartwool NTS 250 Merino wool long sleeve shirt and top and bottom. I used a sleeping bag rated to 45 degrees and was somewhat concerned that I might need a little more for warmth so I purchased the Smartwool 250 base layer that's just a bit thicker than their summer stuff.

Worked like a charm, and I wore them the next day as I hiked out in solid rain. They weren't cheap, but they worked great.

[MuddyWaters]

Powerdry grid type synthetic. Lightest, warmest for weight, holds least water when wet.

I only use long sleeve base layers when needed for warmth, and that pretty much happens in camp below 40, maybe hiking below freezing. Maybe as sleep gear when need to get out of soaked clothing in cold weather, but If possible I will wear clothes till they dry first.

Others use them all the time.

[bigcranky]

The lightest possible merino wool. This is usually 150-wt (grams per sq meter, I think), and you can get it from Icebreaker, Ibex, Smartwool, etc. We own layers from all three companies. Except in the summer, I like to have a short and long sleeve top, and a short and long bottom, and mix and match as needed. They don't stink, they feel great, warm when it's cold and cool when it's warm.

[cbr6fs]

I disagree - I believe that wool (Good Quality Wool) does wick sweat well.

This is very easy to test


Grab some clothing made from various materials, say cotton, synthetic and wool.
Now grab yourself a pipette dropper a coffee mug and a elastic band

Place each material over the mug, make sure you don't stretch it but try and keep it crease free, now secure it with the elastic band.

Put a drop or 2 of water from the pipette on the material and see what it does.

With the synthetic the water will spread out very quickly.
This means the water is moving over a a larger surface area, good for wicking


You'll find with wools the drop won't spread much further than were you place it.
This is very bad as it means that the the water/sweat is not spreading itself over a larger surface area so it's not wicking well at all.

Now imagine this material used in say socks or even worse underpants.
It means you'll sweat and that sweat will stay at it's point of origin, which is the opposite of what we want.

With something like coolmax that sweat will spread, this gives the drier parts of your body a good chance at drying the garment out using the heat created by your body.

As i say i like wool for low activity levels, i could be swayed to using it again in cold dry conditions.
But when it's wet it's a terrible material to use.

Wet wool smells pretty terrible as well

We had a 6 day trip earlier in the year, i was wearing a 260wt Icebreaker baselayer as it was forecast to drop to around 3c
It rained the first day, we had to bug out to a hotel the 3rd night as the weather turned even worse, but even with my Merino top being on the radiator in the hotel room for 7 hours during the night it was still wet through.

The trip got worse and worse as the top just wouldn't dry out.
I started getting chaffing, my skin started pruning up like a raisin, and the top weight a ton.


Each to their own and we are members from many different areas with different weather and terrain so there is no 1 solution for all.
But no matter where i am in the world i will NOT use wool as a baselayer again for any hiking trip.

[Tipi Walter]

As i say i like wool for low activity levels, i could be swayed to using it again in cold dry conditions.
But when it's wet it's a terrible material to use.

Wet wool smells pretty terrible as well

We had a 6 day trip earlier in the year, i was wearing a 260wt Icebreaker baselayer as it was forecast to drop to around 3c
It rained the first day, we had to bug out to a hotel the 3rd night as the weather turned even worse, but even with my Merino top being on the radiator in the hotel room for 7 hours during the night it was still wet through.

The trip got worse and worse as the top just wouldn't dry out.
I started getting chaffing, my skin started pruning up like a raisin, and the top weight a ton.


Each to their own and we are members from many different areas with different weather and terrain so there is no 1 solution for all.
But no matter where i am in the world i will NOT use wool as a baselayer again for any hiking trip.

Merino wool as a baselayer and midlayer gets alot of positive consensus from hundreds of outdoor adventurers and backpackers. Your experience differs but then I have to ask, why did you get your 260wt Icebreakers wet to begin with? I wear Icebreaker zipnecks (260/320wts)all thru winter in the Southeast mountains of TN and VA and NC and have never gotten them wet, just like I've never gotten my down clothing or down bag wet.

To do so shows a bit of inexperience with careful layering. Why didn't you immediately strip down to a t-shirt covered by an excellent rain jacket?? And then keep moving to generate heat? It couldn't have been that cold if it was raining and not snowing---as you say, around 37F. We get long winter rainstorms in exactly the same conditions. PcolaDawg agrees and his merino worked great.

In my opinion the saddest part of your experience was having to bail out to a hotel.

And once the temps really dip to 10F or 0F or below, then merino layers really shine and can be worn either alone or under a rain shell while backpacking as it's too cold for much heat to generate and produce sweat.

[RangerZ]

Merino wool (smartwool, terramar etc) is so much more comfortable, lighter, smells better and I think does better when damp. It's also so much more expensive and wears out almost comically fast if you treat it rough. I buy it whenever I come across it on clearance.

+1 on all of the above. I'm sitting here tonight sewing jagger holes in my smartwool shirt.

[MuddyWaters]

BPL did a study a few yrs back comparing wool and synthetic ls baselayers. Sythetic was actually better performing in moisture wicking and drying, but not significantly enough to give it the a nod compared to wools anti bacterial anti stink and comfort properties. In a nutshell, they both work.

Actually, polypropylene is probably the best performing of all. But it stretches out, degrades over time, pills horribly, and gets destroyed in clothes dryers, which is why it went out of vogue some years back.

[MrGonzalo]

why did you get your 260wt Icebreakers wet to begin with?

I second this.

I have noticed that, even in downpours under close-to-freezing temperatures, my wool layers stayed dry. As soon as water hit them, my body heat would dry it right out. In fact, I hike more times than not under rain with wool and with no rain jacket/pants (and stay much dryer).

Note, however, that I have not had the same positive experience layering two wool items (say, long sleeve shirt + short sleeve shirt). This would often cause for the outermost item to either (1) get soaked in sweat, or (2) get wet under the rain, but not have enough body hear to keep it dry.

[Tipi Walter]

+1 on all of the above. I'm sitting here tonight sewing jagger holes in my smartwool shirt.

Yes, we like our beloved merinos. I have a couple small knee holes on my IB merino leggings and they are covered by a fabric bandaid as I'm too lazy to sew on a patch.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/18-Days-in-the-Big-Frog/i-sG5ZNT4/0/M/TRIP%20141%20212-M.jpg
The biggest problem I have with my IB zipneck tops are the thumbholes wearing out first. Hence a field repair. I encourage all winter backpackers to get tops with thumbholes---they act like mini gloves and don't let your sleeves slide down your arms when you're reading on your pad at night.


https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/3-Georgia-Boys-and-a-Big-Black/i-kkxhvwt/0/M/TRIP%2091%20140-M.jpg
Cold temps in Icebreakers. Two zipnecks sandwiched together---a 260wt large under a 320wt extra large. Also wearing a snug Icebreaker merino balaclava which tucks down into the neck and can be fully enclosed with the neck zippers.

[egilbe]

I've had great experience wearing 150wt wool baselayer and a synthetic mid or outer layer. Almost perfect comfort with a wide range of temps.

[MuddyWaters]

Heres the highly informative BPL article from a few yrs back where they made half-n-half hybrid garments and did direct comparisons.

https://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/comfort_moisture_transport_wool_synthetic_clothing .html#.Vhso9flViko

to paraphrase the results for those too busy to read the arcticle:.

-Wool resists odors significantly better than any synthetics
- Wool is more comfortable when wet
- wool takes 50% longer to dry than synthetics (science, sorry wool fans)
- wool absorbs about 25% more water than synthetics (science, sorry wool fans)
- synthetics wick moisture faster over a larger area, this helps dry faster but also makes colder in windy conditions
- synthetics are lighter for similar warmth
- synthetics are cheaper

A lot of testers simply prefer wool in conditions for comfort and anti-smell. Period. Synthetics outperform.

[cbr6fs]

Merino wool as a baselayer and midlayer gets alot of positive consensus from hundreds of outdoor adventurers and backpackers. Your experience differs but then I have to ask, why did you get your 260wt Icebreakers wet to begin with? I wear Icebreaker zipnecks (260/320wts)all thru winter in the Southeast mountains of TN and VA and NC and have never gotten them wet, just like I've never gotten my down clothing or down bag wet.

To do so shows a bit of inexperience with careful layering. Why didn't you immediately strip down to a t-shirt covered by an excellent rain jacket?? And then keep moving to generate heat? It couldn't have been that cold if it was raining and not snowing---as you say, around 37F. We get long winter rainstorms in exactly the same conditions. PcolaDawg agrees and his merino worked great.

In my opinion the saddest part of your experience was having to bail out to a hotel.

And once the temps really dip to 10F or 0F or below, then merino layers really shine and can be worn either alone or under a rain shell while backpacking as it's too cold for much heat to generate and produce sweat.

Tipi i find you post very "odd"

I've stated my opinion, given the reasoning and experiences behind it, given details of a simple test for members to try out at home, yet you come back at me saying i must be inexperienced :eek:

Even worse is you don't know me, you don't know where my trip was, you don't know my hiking experience and you don't know how bad the weather was on this trip and even if you did it doesn't change the fact that a simple experiment will show that Merino does not wick well, or my opinion it's not a good choice for high level activities or wet weather.


I can understand if someone disagrees with me, as you say thousands of hikers swear by Merino wool, but to try and belittle my opinion by calling me inexperienced when you don't know any details is a pretty poor show.

This trip was in the UK, we had constant heavy heavy rain all day, it didn't slow down or let up even for 1 min during our 13 hour hike that day, even worse was (depending on the weather service you use) between 70mph and 90mph winds, the wind was that powerful we saw several waterfalls literally just stopped by the wind blowing the water back up.

The 260 was my baselayer, i had dry clothes and a dry mid layer but my experience told me to keep them dry rather than soak them through getting them out my rucksack and putting them on.
We were on the tops of the hills so zero shelter, the rain fell literally as though you were stood in a shower, from the second my dry layer would have been exposed to the second i had my rain jacket on it would have been soaked through, so there was little point swapping a wet layer for what would have been another wetter layer of clothing.
Again in my experience.

We did keep moving, but after 13 hours of hiking and what was effectively 13 hours of star jumps (dropping to the floor every few mins to stop the wind taking us off our feet) fatigue started to kick in, we couldn't even cook or boil water as the wind either blew away wind stop or blew out the flame


I've been hiking all over the world for over 30 years, if it rains hard all day (not unusual in the UK) then it doesn't matter what experience levels you have or the clothing you chose you WILL get wet, no if's but's or maybe's

[Tipi Walter]

The 260 was my baselayer, i had dry clothes and a dry mid layer but my experience told me to keep them dry rather than soak them through getting them out my rucksack and putting them on.

We were on the tops of the hills so zero shelter, the rain fell literally as though you were stood in a shower, from the second my dry layer would have been exposed to the second i had my rain jacket on it would have been soaked through, so there was little point swapping a wet layer for what would have been another wetter layer of clothing.
Again in my experience.

We did keep moving, but after 13 hours of hiking and what was effectively 13 hours of star jumps (dropping to the floor every few mins to stop the wind taking us off our feet) fatigue started to kick in, we couldn't even cook or boil water as the wind either blew away wind stop or blew out the flame


I've been hiking all over the world for over 30 years, if it rains hard all day (not unusual in the UK) then it doesn't matter what experience levels you have or the clothing you chose you WILL get wet, no if's but's or maybe's

Okay, I understand you had a 260 on as a baselayer and you had dry clothes in your pack. Obviously your 260 layer is soaked at this point, but you keep it on and you hike in terrible conditions. Got that part.

You say you didn't want to take out a dry layer from your pack and put it on and cover it with your rain jacket because it would've gotten soaked in a second or two. Understandable. No point in getting a second dry layer wet when the first is already soaked.

Question I have is---Did you have your rain jacket over your soaked 260??? This would've been a no-brainer and I'm sure you did. Did you stop and quickly remove your soaked 260 and wring it out thoroughly and then put it back on and add the rain jacket? I have done this in a butt cold rain and it helps to stay warmer and to generate more heat. In terrible winds you can squat down with your friend blocking you and do this chore.

The reason I mentioned an inexperience in layering is because in your first post there was NO MENTION OF A RAIN JACKET. A good rain jacket is always part of the equation when your merino or fleece baselayer is soaked. So I assumed you were not wearing a rain shell.

And finally, you say it was very windy and cold with a nonstop deluge rainstorm and you couldn't even cook or boil water. In that scenario why didn't you find a spot and set up camp and call it a day? I would have. I carry a four season tent just for this purpose---to endure hell storms and stay dry and warm and use all 16 pegs with tent guylines to get thru the wind.

I was in a storm recently on Whiggs Meadow at 5,000 feet on an open bald in a January hellstorm with terrible winds and nonstop deluge rain---it was so bad I had to put big rocks over my tent pegs to keep them in the ground. I think it's important to know when to call it a day and set up camp, even if you haven't reached your destination.

The destination is the least important goal of the day.

I wasn't ragging on your personal experience, just questioning why you would say "wool when it is wet is a terrible material to use." Would you have said the same thing about a fleece baselayer in your 13 hour cold UK rainstorm, notwithstanding your personal test of the products before the trip?

But we look at things differently. I allow my baselayers to get wet in the conditions you describe, and as mentioned I always cover these wet layers with my Arcteryx rain jacket, thereby staying soaked but WARM. What are my baselayers for this job? A long sleeve midweight silk turtleneck under my merino wool Icebreaker t-shirt---covered of course by my Arcteryx rain jacket.

But I can agree that fleece stays warmer when wet and is lighter when wet and may even be warmer overall than merino. I think MuddyWaters is right and so I am rethinking my use of merino for my late October trip and may return to my fleece midlayers instead of IB merinos.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2008/Trip-71/i-ZVndMh8/0/L/Trip%2071%20076-L.jpg
Here I am in Bald River wilderness at 5F using my Arcteryx Delta fleece jacket over my IB merino tops. Maybe I can ditch the Icebreakers and just go with this jacket instead??? Gonna try it out.

[bigcranky]

Even in very cold weather I don't like the heavier wool layers (260, 290, 320). I still wear the 150 weight, and put a mid layer fleece over it when needed for hiking (like my Capilene 4 zip neck). I think the heavier wool layers are too heavy for the warmth, and take too long to dry, plus I tend to sweat like a pig even in very cold conditions so I really don't like heavy base layers.

Of course this is different when I am not hiking -- for more stationary pursuits like winter birding, the heavier base layers work well.

[Tipi Walter]

And btw, I should have said "you had a problem with layering" instead of using the potent and flammable "inexperience" word. Bad choice on my part.

[Tipi Walter]

Even in very cold weather I don't like the heavier wool layers (260, 290, 320). I still wear the 150 weight, and put a mid layer fleece over it when needed for hiking (like my Capilene 4 zip neck). I think the heavier wool layers are too heavy for the warmth, and take too long to dry, plus I tend to sweat like a pig even in very cold conditions so I really don't like heavy base layers.

Of course this is different when I am not hiking -- for more stationary pursuits like winter birding, the heavier base layers work well.

I think you're right and this thread is making me rethink my layer choices for winter. My IB 260/320 are outlandishly heavy and will be deep-sixed for a next winter trip in favor of, as you say, a much lighter Smartwool top layer covered by the fleece jacket pictured above.

For stationary pursuits (i.e. camping) I'll stick with my goose down parka and WM down pants. Actually, merino is no warmer than a good fleece jacket like Polartec 300 or Thermal Pro Hi Loft or that Mt Hardwear Monkey Phur. But luckily I already have the Arcterxy fleece so I don't need to go out and buy more crap.

[Stubby]

No love for silk layers?

I like a full set - silk shirt and pants as first layer, then fleece. Then a synthetic shirt of some sort, then hiking pants and a fleece-lined waterproof coat.

Now, I don't go out in the most extreme weather, but have done a couple of AT sections in sub-freezing temps, including one where we walked thru a pretty heavy snow outside Franklin, NC. Franklin had a low of 15 F degrees that night, we stayed at Sassafras Gap Shelter. At another ~2000 ft elevation, it was probably 5 F degrees. As long as I kept my hat and gloves on I was warm, at times on uphills even hot and had to take off my hat or open my coat.

[Tipi Walter]

No love for silk layers?

I like a full set - silk shirt and pants as first layer, then fleece. Then a synthetic shirt of some sort, then hiking pants and a fleece-lined waterproof coat.

Now, I don't go out in the most extreme weather, but have done a couple of AT sections in sub-freezing temps, including one where we walked thru a pretty heavy snow outside Franklin, NC. Franklin had a low of 15 F degrees that night, we stayed at Sassafras Gap Shelter. At another ~2000 ft elevation, it was probably 5 F degrees. As long as I kept my hat and gloves on I was warm, at times on uphills even hot and had to take off my hat or open my coat.

As I said in a previous post, my top baselayer is a long sleeve midweight silk turtleneck which I use under a t-shirt for most of my cool and cold weather backpacking, covered by a rain jacket when conditions warrant. Here's the system below: Wintersilks midweight top with an Icebreaker t-tech merino t-shirt. Slap a rain shell over this and I can hike in temps down to 20F.

Silk is okay but there's no real consensus on which is warmer, silk or wool. Years ago I went the whole silk midlayer route and figured I could get mid to heavyweight silk and use them in place or fleece or merino. See the bottom pic.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Welcome-to-2015/i-NSXfHPv/0/L/Trip%20161%20207-L.jpg



https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2007/The-Hangover-Mountan-Clearcut/i-dd8QV5t/0/L/TRIP%2069%20045-L.jpg
Here are two mid to heavyweight silk tops sandwiched together.

[Casey & Gina]

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/18-Days-in-the-Big-Frog/i-sG5ZNT4/0/M/TRIP%20141%20212-M.jpg

Field repair with a fabric band-aid and floss - a true hiker repair if I have ever seen one!

The thumb holes are my least favorite feature of the Icebreakers - I worry that if I use them I will wear them out fast, and this seems to back that logic up. If I'm not using them, there is an annoying hole there. I have thought about stitching them closed. A bit of durable nylon stitched around the inside of the hole would help too, but reduce comfort a bit.

We have a full base layer sets of Icebreaker 260gm leggings and zippered top. I tried them out in hot weather and found them to be clammy as I sweated and they held it in. Not a big problem but obviously not an ideal weight for warm weather. I used them again in cold rainy conditions along with the balaclava and gloves from Icebreaker and they were all fantastic.

We also got 120gm Icebreaker T-shirts. They are awesome in hot weather! Even when very sweaty, with sweat trapped between my back and backpack, it did not feel clammy at all, and seemed to wick rather well. My only concern is that they will probably wear out pretty quickly. I will be carrying needles and thread with me for the occasions that repair is needed. Most comfortable T-shirt I've ever warn though! Also have a pair of Icebreaker briefs, and they are great even in hot weather too.

So far I am not sold on silk but have been contemplating it. What is great about wool is that it does not retain odor, but I have heard that silk requires frequent washing.

[cbr6fs]

Did you stop and quickly remove your soaked 260 and wring it out thoroughly and then put it back on and add the rain jacket? I have done this in a butt cold rain and it helps to stay warmer and to generate more heat. In terrible winds you can squat down with your friend blocking you and do this chore.

This would usually be my SOP as well.
In this case though it was raining that hard, in the time from finishing wringing it out to getting my WP jacket back on and zipped up the top would have been wetter than before i'd started.
It was literally like standing in a shower, non stop, all day



And finally, you say it was very windy and cold with a nonstop deluge rainstorm and you couldn't even cook or boil water. In that scenario why didn't you find a spot and set up camp and call it a day? I would have. I carry a four season tent just for this purpose---to endure hell storms and stay dry and warm and use all 16 pegs with tent guylines to get thru the wind.

The majority of the day was spent on a traverse, the only even slightly flat area was the 40cm wide path, even that was off camber for most of the hike.

Not many camp spots on terrain like this unfortunately

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d43/cbr6fs/Hiking/Lakes%202015/20150601_152137_zpsbvhm73lh.jpg

There was the option of dropping down into the valley but it meant surfing down a very steep scree fall, not my first choice in high winds and torrential rain.



I was in a storm recently on Whiggs Meadow at 5,000 feet on an open bald in a January hellstorm with terrible winds and nonstop deluge rain---it was so bad I had to put big rocks over my tent pegs to keep them in the ground. I think it's important to know when to call it a day and set up camp, even if you haven't reached your destination.

Indeed, we should have bailed earlier in the day.
As we were not familiar with the area i thought we were making our way to the nearest bail out point, turns out there was another much closer escape route i missed.




I wasn't ragging on your personal experience, just questioning why you would say "wool when it is wet is a terrible material to use." Would you have said the same thing about a fleece baselayer in your 13 hour cold UK rainstorm, notwithstanding your personal test of the products before the trip?

As i say wool has it's place
The trip we've talked about was just a one off, i've never experienced anything like it before and it's unlikely i ever would again, so choosing equipment for a one in a million event is fundamentally flawed.

My opinion is mainly formed from all the other times my Merino kit hasn't performed as i'd like.
First to go for me were my Merino socks, i don't even use these around the house, i gave them away.
I was getting terrible wet spots on my feet and the socks were not drying out even on warm walks.
I tried various weights of Merino for the socks, but i ended up bringing 2 or 3 pairs of socks for day hikes and thought this was crazy as i'd never done this before.

I went back to coolmax and it was a revelation.
No more raisin like wet spots on my skin from localised sweat not wicking, i could walk through a stream and my socks would be dry to the touch within a couple of hours of hiking.

It's the same with the Merino tops, if i carry out any activity that cause me to sweat i get wet patches around the usual sweat spots (back, arm pits etc), once damp they stay damp all day.
This is not the case with my synthetic tops

I even bought some really thin Merino and some Merino mix baselayers.
These obviously dry out quicker, but they don't offer anywhere near the insulation of my synthetic tops, so i kinda don't see the point in using a baselayer that takes longer to dry and isn't as warm as the synthetic version.



But we look at things differently. I allow my baselayers to get wet in the conditions you describe, and as mentioned I always cover these wet layers with my Arcteryx rain jacket, thereby staying soaked but WARM. What are my baselayers for this job? A long sleeve midweight silk turtleneck under my merino wool Icebreaker t-shirt---covered of course by my Arcteryx rain jacket.

But soaked wool offers zero insulation though.
In the case you describe you'd be warmer removing your Merino top and putting it in your rucksack.

This is what i was saying earlier it's a complete fallacy that wool keeps you warm when it's wet.
If it's slightly damp yes it does, but then so do synthetic tops



But I can agree that fleece stays warmer when wet and is lighter when wet and may even be warmer overall than merino. I think MuddyWaters is right and so I am rethinking my use of merino for my late October trip and may return to my fleece midlayers instead of IB merinos.


Here I am in Bald River wilderness at 5F using my Arcteryx Delta fleece jacket over my IB merino tops. Maybe I can ditch the Icebreakers and just go with this jacket instead??? Gonna try it out.

Even if we find the absolute perfect setup for a trip, it's unlikely it will work as well on another trip.
Everything we take is a compromise, it's finding a compromise that works for us.

Merino wool has pretty much become THE uniform for outdoors enthusiasts over the last 10 years or so, in my opinion this is more from marketing that it is from real world experiences.
For the bushcraft lot i can understand why it makes sense, but for hiking or higher level activities that don't involve funny hats i just think people default to Merino rather than think about what they are wearing and if there are better solutions for them.

[Tipi Walter]

Field repair with a fabric band-aid and floss - a true hiker repair if I have ever seen one!

The thumb holes are my least favorite feature of the Icebreakers - I worry that if I use them I will wear them out fast, and this seems to back that logic up. If I'm not using them, there is an annoying hole there. I have thought about stitching them closed. A bit of durable nylon stitched around the inside of the hole would help too, but reduce comfort a bit.

We have a full base layer sets of Icebreaker 260gm leggings and zippered top. I tried them out in hot weather and found them to be clammy as I sweated and they held it in. Not a big problem but obviously not an ideal weight for warm weather. I used them again in cold rainy conditions along with the balaclava and gloves from Icebreaker and they were all fantastic.

We also got 120gm Icebreaker T-shirts. They are awesome in hot weather! Even when very sweaty, with sweat trapped between my back and backpack, it did not feel clammy at all, and seemed to wick rather well. My only concern is that they will probably wear out pretty quickly. I will be carrying needles and thread with me for the occasions that repair is needed. Most comfortable T-shirt I've ever warn though! Also have a pair of Icebreaker briefs, and they are great even in hot weather too.

So far I am not sold on silk but have been contemplating it. What is great about wool is that it does not retain odor, but I have heard that silk requires frequent washing.

You may see the value of the thumbholes when it's 0F and you're inside your tent trying to use your fingers to cook a meal or write in your journal or read a book. Just an added layer of protection for the hands.

And yes, the merino t-shirts are awesomely wonderful but they only last me a couple trip before they get wear holes. Bummer.

Silk in my opinion is not really a warmth option but a comfort option. I like having silk over my torso and arms and under all my other crap. It's a very comfy baselayer.

Here are the thumbholes in action on a cold hike up Flats Mt during a late October cold snap at around 20F.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-Citico-Wilderness/i-WDqwVPH/0/L/TRIP%20126%20376-L.jpg

[Casey & Gina]

Any opinions on the REI brand silk baselayers? My experience with REI-brand products has generally been suboptimal, but I have a couple coupons for 20% off REI-brand items - contemplating whether I should use them or just toss them. If the REI-brand won't cut it, any recommendations for a high-quality silk baselayer brand to try out would be appreciated!

[AO2134]

I don't hike like many here. I don't carry base layers, thermals, etc per se. I don't carry a lot of the winter gear most do. I don't have base layers, thermals, long johns, etc.

When I hike in winter, I hike is windbreaker pants pictured here.32278

I don't really have anything under that other than regular underwear. I refuse to pay for base layers when I don't need them. That has always been enough to keep me warm from the waist down. When it wasn't, I just keep moving or pick up the pace. On my upper body, I hike with a long sleeve compression gym shirt, a long sleeve poly shirt, and that windbreaker jacket there. All cheap. A lot of it from walmart.

When I get to camp, I don't bring any long underwear. Never felt the need to spend the money. I either sleep in what I hiked with if it I stayed dry or bring a pair of fleece pants for the night. For my upper body, I bring a second compression gym shirt for camp, a second poly long sleeve shirt, a cheap $20 costco down vest, and if needed the jacket in the picture. I have a cheap 30 degree marmot trestles 30, which I have taken down to 17 degrees without a problem.

Though I will concede, I sleep warmer and hike warmer than most people. So your experience may require more than this. It may require "proper" gear. In my travels so far, I never felt the need for it.

This works for me. It may not for others.

[Tipi Walter]

Cbr6fs says----
But soaked wool offers zero insulation though.
In the case you describe you'd be warmer removing your Merino top and putting it in your rucksack.

This is what i was saying earlier it's a complete fallacy that wool keeps you warm when it's wet.
If it's slightly damp yes it does, but then so do synthetic tops


I did some research and found out that no fabric offers any insulation when soaked. But when you wring the fabric out, whether wool or polyester, you get insulation back to some degree.

But you are right that wool when soaked takes 60 or 70% longer to get dry, versus polyester. Thing is, I try my best not to get any of my insulating layers wet, except baselayers and rain jacket.

But I do know that throwing a proshell goretex rain jacket over anything I am wearing which is soaked will keep me alive and keep me warmer when moving. It's like a VBL. So I allow a few select torso items to get wet as it's inevitable and then slap on the rain jacket and warmth is generated. When I start to shiver due to saturation I dump the pack and wring out the baselayers and start over. It's a good system with either wool or polyester.

And when a cold rainstorm at 35F for two days cycles into a deep freeze at 10F, (**see below), I have kept my warmth midlayers dry (like merino or polartec fleece) so I can hike in them and stay warm. What's wet at 35F is minimal compared to what doesn't ever get wet at 10F.

Btw, when you say WP jacket, are you talking about a waterproof jacket or a windproof jacket? Hard to tell in your pic.

** I call this winter cycle the Decareaux Cycle after David Decareaux and his two sons who died in the Ozarks on a dayhike a couple years ago. See---

https://www.google.com/#q=david+decareaux

They started out at 60F in January in the Ozark mountains. It started raining with temps around 40F. Miserable, and they got soaked. Here's where the Cycle hit: Sometime in the night the temps went into the 20Fs and what was wet and cold got REALLY wet and cold. They "froze" and died of exposure.

Point is, this Cycle is a very common occurrence in the Southeast mountains where I backpack. You can almost set your clock to it. January. Cold Rain. Rain stops. Single digit cold snap. Warmer with clear skies. Repeat till May.

[saltysack]

The newer grid type capilene products work great for me...much warmer and lighter than older ones...cap 4 hoody is my favorite piece for winter.....


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[Casey & Gina]

I have had excellent results using Injinji Outdoor socks (http://www.injinji.com/outdoor-2-0-original-weight-crew-nuwool.html) in cold wet conditions, in conjunction with minimalist not-at-all waterproof shoes. When I start hiking I feel cold water hitting my feet when I hit the first puddle, but then to my surprise the sensation almost immediately goes away, and I cannot tell the difference from hiking in dry socks on a dry day. My feet and toes remain warm. When I get to camp and pull off my socks, they are laden enough with water that I hold them outside the tent and wring them out. I am sure this wouldn't fly in really cold winter conditions, but I have found wool socks (64% that is) to be extremely nice in cold and wet conditions.

[Feral Bill]

I use Smartwool for sailing, skiing and biking, as well as hiking. On a good sailing day, I can get very wet from spray. I found it works well, drys in a reasonable time, and is more comfortable than synthetics. Oddly the best thing I've used for moisture management is cotton, yes cotton, fishnet tee shirts. They have flaws (besides being unavailable), but really work for difficult weather conditions. Or maybe I'm just a nostalgic old fart.

[Tipi Walter]

The newer grid type capilene products work great for me...much warmer and lighter than older ones...cap 4 hoody is my favorite piece for winter.....


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I need to get back into capilene, maybe upgrade my baselayer choices. Probably better than merino though I like the feel of merino.

[cbr6fs]

I did some research and found out that no fabric offers any insulation when soaked. But when you wring the fabric out, whether wool or polyester, you get insulation back to some degree.

Agreed, but that is not always possible though



But you are right that wool when soaked takes 60 or 70% longer to get dry, versus polyester. Thing is, I try my best not to get any of my insulating layers wet, except baselayers and rain jacket.

To be honest Tipi i have never measured it.
I have a synthetic baselayer made by a company called craft that i was wearing last year when i took a tumble into a river, it was around 20c out so certainly not cold, but the friend i was riding with noticed at our lunch stop that it was dry already, this was around 1 hour after the "dip"

This is why i'm swaying away from wool, yes i prefer the way Merino feels against my skin, but in every other way i've just found that synthetic works better.



But I do know that throwing a proshell goretex rain jacket over anything I am wearing which is soaked will keep me alive and keep me warmer when moving. It's like a VBL. So I allow a few select torso items to get wet as it's inevitable and then slap on the rain jacket and warmth is generated. When I start to shiver due to saturation I dump the pack and wring out the baselayers and start over. It's a good system with either wool or polyester.

I've always been of that philosophy as well, as i'm getting older, fatter and losing fitness i'm not so certain i can just keep on going no matter what these days.
After the trip in mention i bought a OMM rotor smock, it's a bit more weight to carry but i know that between this and my fleece pullover find a crack in some rocks, crawl into my emergency bivvy bag and be warm enough to spend a uncomfortable night out without going into hypothermia



And when a cold rainstorm at 35F for two days cycles into a deep freeze at 10F, (**see below), I have kept my warmth midlayers dry (like merino or polartec fleece) so I can hike in them and stay warm. What's wet at 35F is minimal compared to what doesn't ever get wet at 10F.

This is pretty much the worst case scenario, i've been colder in wet windy weather than i have ever been when hiking in the snow



Btw, when you say WP jacket, are you talking about a waterproof jacket or a windproof jacket? Hard to tell in your pic.

Waterproof.
hat's my brother in the pic, he's wearing a Montane further faster Neoshell jacket



** I call this winter cycle the Decareaux Cycle after David Decareaux and his two sons who died in the Ozarks on a dayhike a couple years ago. See---

https://www.google.com/#q=david+decareaux

They started out at 60F in January in the Ozark mountains. It started raining with temps around 40F. Miserable, and they got soaked. Here's where the Cycle hit: Sometime in the night the temps went into the 20Fs and what was wet and cold got REALLY wet and cold. They "froze" and died of exposure.

Point is, this Cycle is a very common occurrence in the Southeast mountains where I backpack. You can almost set your clock to it. January. Cold Rain. Rain stops. Single digit cold snap. Warmer with clear skies. Repeat till May.


What a tragedy
It's easy for use outdoors enthusiasts to sit at home and pick apart decision and say what we would have done differently (not aimed at you Tipi, but talking in general).

If your wet and the temps drop then you're going to get cold.
Most of us think we'd just keep walking to keep warm, but the cold weather really starts affecting your thought process and even your athletic abilities.
If a few more things go wrong like taking the wrong path or a injury then a bad situation becomes even worse.

What's even sadder is the fact that in many of the cases i've googled and read up on most had emergency equipment but never used it.
I'm sure there is something ingrained in most people to just walk out.

Hopefully we learn from these tragedies

[gbolt]

I have been following this thread as it morphs and now can ask a question that I have had for awhile. I have a wondeful old pair of Patagonia Capiline Silk Top and Bottom Base Layer. I normally use these to hike in during the winter and sleep in during the summer. I also recieved a new Top & Bottom Cap 2 that I was planning to use as winter sleep wear. Ultimately, I am trying to prepare for a Mid March launch date for a future thru hike of th AT. Is two sets of baselayers over kill? Would I be smarter to chose one over the other and if so which one? I do like the Silk bottoms to hike in when cold and have found that the Cap 2 bottoms can generate excessive heat, causing sweaty balls... and worried that then they can't then be used for sleeping. I also am toying with the idea of not carrying the silk top baselayer and simply use a long sleeve hiking shirt in winter, as well as summer sleepwear.

I have a Cap 4 Pro Zip which works with a Hiking Shirt Baselayer and a T shirt over it if needed. I have a fleese vest that is my "go to item" for shovelling snow and also wondered if a fleece vest is overkill with the new Cap 4? Would love some help dialing in my cloths list, especially from those that have fought the cold and snow in the mountains that I cannot get to. If we pack our fears, mine is definitely fear of getting cold. My summer weight is 16 lbs. and my winter weight is 19-20 lbs. or more if I am not careful. I have hands, face and head dialed in, just need the rest under my pre-cip on the trail and Montbell UL in camp.

[Tundracamper]

Had good luck with synthetic Terramar. Decided to treat myself to high-end Merino that everyone raves about. Found a place that sells the IceBreaker brand. Luckily, I tried it on before buying. It felt like 10,000 needles sticking me. It may not be itchy for some folks, but I don't fit into that group. Whatever you decide, try it on before making a purchase. JMHO


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[saltysack]

Cap 4 quarter zip hoodie alone is good to about 40* to hike in for me and add my Lt rain/wind (OR Helium 11)shell and good to well below 20* to hike in


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[pauly_j]

A base layer is just that. It shouldn't get wet if you have an adequate outer layer.

I have a smartwool base layer and the only time it's been wet is with sweat at the back.

[Stubby]

... my top baselayer is a long sleeve midweight silk turtleneck ...

Thanks, sorry I missed that.

[Studlintsean]

I have been following this thread as it morphs and now can ask a question that I have had for awhile. I have a wondeful old pair of Patagonia Capiline Silk Top and Bottom Base Layer. I normally use these to hike in during the winter and sleep in during the summer. I also recieved a new Top & Bottom Cap 2 that I was planning to use as winter sleep wear. Ultimately, I am trying to prepare for a Mid March launch date for a future thru hike of th AT. Is two sets of baselayers over kill? Would I be smarter to chose one over the other and if so which one? I do like the Silk bottoms to hike in when cold and have found that the Cap 2 bottoms can generate excessive heat, causing sweaty balls... and worried that then they can't then be used for sleeping. I also am toying with the idea of not carrying the silk top baselayer and simply use a long sleeve hiking shirt in winter, as well as summer sleepwear.

I have a Cap 4 Pro Zip which works with a Hiking Shirt Baselayer and a T shirt over it if needed. I have a fleese vest that is my "go to item" for shovelling snow and also wondered if a fleece vest is overkill with the new Cap 4? Would love some help dialing in my cloths list, especially from those that have fought the cold and snow in the mountains that I cannot get to. If we pack our fears, mine is definitely fear of getting cold. My summer weight is 16 lbs. and my winter weight is 19-20 lbs. or more if I am not careful. I have hands, face and head dialed in, just need the rest under my pre-cip on the trail and Montbell UL in camp.


In the winter, I hike in lightweight long john top (either wool or synthetic) with a T over it and bottoms (Rei Lightweight synthetic) covered with shorts. I also bring a Capeline 4 and heavy weight REI bottoms for camp. This is for temps around 30 and below. I also carry a rain jacket and rain pants which I can add/ remove as needed. I also carry a down jacket which varies based on night time temps. I have a MB ex light and an Alpine light.