Capilene Vs Merino

[Tipi Walter]

So, which should I get?? Here are my two choices---

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-RJaFlERvNPiAZudBxWEQ7VS27uVqeNoFRtcaLMHJZnzgcRs&usqp=CAE

Nice midweight zip neck merino Smartwool top. (Already own a "set", large under an extra large---for my winter baselayer, but it's worn out.)


http://www.patagonia.com/tsimages/37122_HNT.fpx?wid=155&hei=155&ftr=8&effect=dropshadow,0x000000,10,8,120,8&cvt=jpeg,scans=progressive
Or a Patagonia Thermal top (what used to be Capilene 4).

Capilene vs merino. The capilene 1-4 designation seems to be over, now it's Thermal or Midweight etc.

[Studlintsean]

I personally like the Cap 4. Just wish they made a fat boy version.

[gbolt]

Dang...I am still trying to figure out if I need to carry both Cap 1 Silk and Cap 2? If I should trade in for the new "MidWeight" to replace my Cap 2 or are they so close to notice a difference?

I do know that the Cap 4 Pro Zip (or this new "Thermal") is more of a Mid Layer than a base layer. Which is why I struggle whether to take a fleece vest on top of the Cap 4, which alway's goes. I suggest the Thermal if you don't have one.

Question after Question...Good thing we have the Whiteblaze threads!

[The Cleaner]

Wool of course,any good brand.All synthetics will stink after a few days even in cold temps.I once met a hiker at a shelter wearing 3 synthetic tops and was still cold.I had on only one lightweight Smartwool top and a Nano Puff and was fine.

[Tipi Walter]

Dang...I am still trying to figure out if I need to carry both Cap 1 Silk and Cap 2? If I should trade in for the new "MidWeight" to replace my Cap 2 or are they so close to notice a difference?

I do know that the Cap 4 Pro Zip (or this new "Thermal") is more of a Mid Layer than a base layer. Which is why I struggle whether to take a fleece vest on top of the Cap 4, which alway's goes. I suggest the Thermal if you don't have one.

Question after Question...Good thing we have the Whiteblaze threads!

After your post I have the answer. I will get a Cap 1.0 silk Defender sandwiched between a Cap 2 Capilene Merino mix and covered by a "longweight" Cap 4 Pro Zip unless provided with a new Thermal loweight in which case I'll go all the way with a Thermolite Spartan Thermopylae (the "300" denier) and then I can cover it all with a Howling Monkey predigested Phur fleece filament vest.

I'm leaning towards the Thermal in other words.

[bigcranky]

This is for a mid layer? I like my cap 4 zip neck pullover on top of a 150-wt merino base layer. It's warm, especially under a wind shirt or hard shell, but it breathes well so I can wear it hiking in cold weather. It's way lighter than the equivalent warmth in a wool layer.

[MuddyWaters]

I personally like a light body-fit baselayer, followed by a midlayer fleece hoody that isnt real tight.

[T.S.Kobzol]

I would go for the merino if it wasn't Smartwool. I have had lousy durability issues with Smartwool products while I have had outstanding durability experience with Patagonia.

[gbolt]

Thanks Tipi and Big Cranky! That does help a lot. I tried to follow the rule of only take what you can wear at any one time but still trying to make sure one layer stay's dry for warmth at night. I love my Cap 4 Pro Zip and paired with a Windshirt, I have been able to hike into the low twenties. I Want to test lower temps but not alway's able to get free time to hike in the proper conditions that need testing (I can't wait to retire). I do worry about packing to much and packing my fear of cold but feel that I am low enough base weight to carry items that could be sent home on a long hike. The fleece vest does appear to be overkill.

[Deadeye]

I bought one capilene shirt, and I don't know why I still have it. It smells after 5 minutes.

[redseal]

I would go with the Capilene only because I have not used the other option :-) Although I also like Woolx!

[Dogwood]

I have both. Like them both too.

Almost always when grabbing the Capilene I mid layer it and always prefer 1/4 zips for the additional ventilation. I did not have a big stink issue with older 1/4 zip Capilene versions. I have been testing the NEW Patagonia Capilene Mid Weight 1/4 zip long sleeved with Polygiene permanent odor control. It's early in my usage but it has worked nicely to control odor for me after about three high output multi day cooler weather hikes. I picked up a Thermal Weight 1/4 zip Capilene 1/4 zip long sleeved shirt too but have not used it yet.

All my merino mid layers have 1/4 zips or deep zips as well.

Prefer all my mid layers, which really can also function by themselves as base or even outer layers, and to be slightly loose fitting especially in the shoulders, sleeves, and wrist cuffs. Gotta be able to thermo-regulate/ventilate.

[fastfoxengineering]

Hey muddywaters. I've been looking for a fleece hoody. Always end up back at the cap 4 hoody due to rave reviews. However, price and the snug fit keep me from pulling the trigger. What do you use?

[Just Bill]

Get the Cap 4, especially fer your neck of the woods.
Try it on if you can, sizing just changed a bit.

One underrated thing about the grid fleece is how versatile it is...
Wear it alone and a light breeze keeps you pretty cool.
Wear it as a baselayer and it wicks very well.
Wear it under a wind shell, or even any layer and it traps much more heat than it weighs.

If merino learns to mimic the grid fleece design... but it can't.

Merino 1 is about the most wool I'll invest in- it wears too quickly to justify the expense and other than a baselayer doesn't perform better generally speaking once you get deeper in your layers.

[Tipi Walter]

Just Bill---
I think you're right, although "Cap 4" is now called Patagonia Thermal . . .I think.

[Just Bill]

Yar... but the fabric is the same on that product.
Cap 4 is the same weight of Polartec Grid Fleece.
Though be careful as everything is re-cut and fairly trim.

Looks like they are moving the whole cap line to a version of grid fleece in differing weights, and turning Cap 1 into the "daily" line. Guessing Polartec figured out how to "scale down" the fabric so they are taking advantage of it as it does work really well. So what was 2&3 is now a lighter weight version of the grid fleece.

Cap 1 appears to be a blend of the "running" version they've been using and regular Cap 1.

I know you've been around long enough to remember this ain't the first time the 1,2,3 system as been replaced by some marketing genius. Hopefully you stick around long enough for the next time they "introduce" the simplified 1,2,3 layering system. :D

[Tipi Walter]

I remember the very old and very stinky dark blue polypropylene tops and bottoms from the 1970's. Melted a few in a dryer. Stunk myself out of my tent. Can't remember the brand though.

Thanks for the info on Polartex grid fleece.

[martinb]

I highly recommend Arcteryx over Cap. Have both, Arcteryx is warmer and keeps the stink away 20 times longer.

This one should work : http://arcteryx.com/product.aspx?language=EN&gender=Mens&category=Base_Layer&model=Rho-LTW-Zip-Neck

[martinb]

Or this one if you are considering fleece. http://arcteryx.com/product.aspx?language=EN&gender=Mens&category=Base_Layer&model=Rho-AR-Zip-Neck

[Casey & Gina]

I try to use only natural materials for my base layer, just a preference for things that are up against my skin. How is silk btw for odor retention? Does wool stay odor-free better?

[MuddyWaters]

Hey muddywaters. I've been looking for a fleece hoody. Always end up back at the cap 4 hoody due to rave reviews. However, price and the snug fit keep me from pulling the trigger. What do you use?

I use a melanzana microgrid hoody mostly. Not technical garment, the 100 wt weighs 11.5 oz, but super comfortable and i basically live in it for week at a time. The hood is awesome design, becomes balaclava. With a light fleece beanie under the hood, my head is good down to 30 F for sleeping with quilt.

[Dogwood]

We sometimes trap ourselves into limited thinking by possibly assuming we have fewer choices than we might possibly have. In this case, it seems the false limiting duality is the either/or of merino or a synthetic.

If you liked the Smartwool Mid Wt 100% merino 1/2 zip for a winter baselayer I suggest you keep a mixed material long sleeve 1/2 zip in the running also such as the SW PhD Light WT 1/2 zip. You should factor in your typical winter backpacking scenarios, winter backpacking philosophy, and how you totally layer up. ie; fast and light(even in winter), short or bigger daily mileage, moderate pace w/ even more camping, how you perspire or control it on the move in winter, etc.

[saltysack]

The expedition wt cap 4 hoody is a great piece...my favorite for winter....just bought cap 3 bottoms...can't go wrong with it...great to hike or sleep in.....I don't like hiking in my sleep cloths but it's so comfortable can't resist...breaths well and very functional and warm with hood....quarter zip vents well...cap 4=thermal wt I assume...


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[Vegan Packer]

Does anyone have any testing on the new Capilene Thermal Weight, and how it compares to the old Cap 4? The most that I can find are statements that they are mostly the same thing, but I see that the new version is lighter (in ounces), and I wonder if it can actually be warmer, which the advertising seems to hint at. I plan to use this as mostly sleepware, so my goal is to find the lightest (in ounces) that warmest. I am vegan, so animal products are out.

[egilbe]

Does anyone have any testing on the new Capilene Thermal Weight, and how it compares to the old Cap 4? The most that I can find are statements that they are mostly the same thing, but I see that the new version is lighter (in ounces), and I wonder if it can actually be warmer, which the advertising seems to hint at. I plan to use this as mostly sleepware, so my goal is to find the lightest (in ounces) that warmest. I am vegan, so animal products are out.

Capilene is made from dead dinosaurs

[rocketsocks]

Capilene is made from dead dinosaursnow that's funny, and kinda true too.

[rocketsocks]

Sometimes I wear sheep over top of dead dinosaur, and sometimes the other way around.

[JumpMaster Blaster]

This discussion is pretty interesting. I recently bought a Patagonia caiplene 2 top & a capilene 3 top, and I'm interested to see how they fare against an old-school Under Armour ColdGear fitted top (thick), an Under Armour ColdGear zip top, a Polartec "silkweight" top (military issue), and a relatively heavy "grid fleece" military zip top. I know my old-school UA ColdGear top is too warm for ANY kind of walking around- that was my go-to for guard duty outdoors.

When it comes to baselayer tops, I have about 8 different ones to chose from now (I know that's overkill), and the new capilene designations just confuses me further.

[rocketsocks]

This discussion is pretty interesting. I recently bought a Patagonia caiplene 2 top & a capilene 3 top, and I'm interested to see how they fare against an old-school Under Armour ColdGear fitted top (thick), an Under Armour ColdGear zip top, a Polartec "silkweight" top (military issue), and a relatively heavy "grid fleece" military zip top. I know my old-school UA ColdGear top is too warm for ANY kind of walking around- that was my go-to for guard duty outdoors.

When it comes to baselayer tops, I have about 8 different ones to chose from now (I know that's overkill), and the new capilene designations just confuses me further.
Yup, best to just try em on and take em for a spin, and see what works for you...everybody's different.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Sometimes I wear sheep over top of dead dinosaur, and sometimes the other way around.

I do the opposite. I find merino much more comfortable against my skin than synthetic.

[rocketsocks]

I do the opposite. I find merino much more comfortable against my skin than synthetic.It's gotta be real cold for me to have wool next to my skin, even merino, or I can't get it off quick enough, to prickly.

[Dogwood]

Both the NEW Capilene 1/4 Zip Mid wt and Thermal wt 1/4 zip Capilene have inside grid patterns that supposedly create channels for heated air to dissipate. I had two fleeces that had similar inside grid patterns that I felt did little to dissipate body heat.

Again, you don't have a narrow simple merino/silk or synthetic choice. Several outdoors companies are mixing natural and synthetics in the same base or mid layer torso pieces possibly offering positive functional attributes of different materials in one apparel piece.

[Vegan Packer]

Quote of post that I found on backpackinglight.com forum:

"Spoke with a rep this afternoon and he clarified a few things: [T]he Thermalweight and Cap 4 are very very similar, with the former ditching the chest pocket and adding a longer hem. Fabric is supposed to be noticeable more breathable due to a new grid pattern.

R1 is also supposed to be more breathable.

Midweight replaces cap 3."

Here is possibly somewhat of a contradiction (but could also just be more of a broad statement) in a video that says that the Midweight is combines features of both the Cap 2 and Cap 3:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzjXkOopyCQ

Last, here is a video that explains more about the Midweight:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOojuLi_a_w

[Dogwood]

Merino wool durability is definitely NOT just determined by it being merino! Heck, I have a 2009 Icebreaker 320 wt Original Long Sleeve 1/2 Zip, called a Classic 320 wt on my label, in black and gray, that I bought off season for $70 that I have at least 4000 miles on plus more summits and above treeline traverses than I can recall that STILL has life in it even after a few repair stitches to the edging around the monkey finger holes. It's a GREAT piece with very good warmth in COLD wetness that I have used as a mid and base layer in the northern backcountry. This 320 wt piece may now be slightly different than the 2009 version I bought.

http://www.icebreaker.com/en/mens-sweaters/original-long-sleeve-half-zip/100871.html?dwvar_100871_color=401

I get very good durability from my Smartwool NTS 250 wt 1/2 Zip 100% merino Long Sleeved, Icebreaker 200 wt GT Long Sleeved 1/2 zip(w/ mesh full side torso/underarm panels), Minus 33 Allagash 170 wt 1/4 Zip 100 % merino, and IBEX Indie 195 wt 100 % merino 1/2 zip long sleeved and IBEX SHAQ 380 wt Hoodie Full Zip(HEAVY but great as a mid layer in mixed wet COLD conditions.

http://www.smartwool.com/shop/men-clothing-baselayers/mens-nts-mid-250-pattern-zip-t-sw0np616?variationId=309

http://www.icebreaker.com/en/mens-tops/drive-long-sleeve-half-zip/100727_WS.html?dwvar_100727__WS_color=402

http://shop.minus33.com/allagash-mens-lightweight-14-zip/744/product/

http://shop.ibex.com/merino-wool-clothing/mens-long-sleeve-shirts/m-indie-half-zip

http://shop.ibex.com/merino-wool-clothing/mens-long-sleeve-shirts/m-shak-hoodoo-hoody


All these pieces I bought well below advertised retail prices mostly as a result of buying off season, in discontinued colors/styles, and last seasons colors on clearance racks. For example that IBEX Shaq Sweater I paid $70 for in Colorado in mid summer.


Where I agree merino can have more of a durability issue for the do re mi is in the lightest wts. All my $50- $70 Smartwool MICRO WT tees, which I loved for their functionality, wore out or tore in short order. All it took was catching a Smartwool Micro Wt tee, when worn as a stand alone torso piece, in a backpack belt buckle to put a run or hole in it. Shoulders wear quickly as well.

BTW, I've experienced many a SYNTHETIC Patagonia Cap 1, 2, and 3 pill and wear rather quickly in the shoulder areas where the shirt rubs on the backpack.

[Jake2c]

I go with wool next to my skin every chance I get. Having said that, if you are doing shorter hikes it may not be that important. Each persons chemistry is different but I found that the smell difference between wool and every other fabric I have tried, is significant when you are not bathing for a number of days. I went on one 5 day hike with both wool socks and some blend (don't remember). After about 3 days in the heat, I had to put the blend in a ziplock bag to keep from passing out in my hammock. Wool socks, almost no odor at all. Not odor free but you had to get within inches to smell them. I do use other materials for outer layers though when I can find wool.

[gbolt]

Dogwood....

How would you rank the choices you spoke about?

I have them all listed on my Amazon Wishlist and have read and reread reviews. I would rank them...
1. Ibex 2. Smartwool 3. Icebreaker and 4. Minus 33. For some reason I love the Ibex Indie the best; but of course it is the most expensive choice. I am looking for either a Base Layer with a hiking T over it, or to use it as a long sleeve hiking shirt under a Cap 4 Pro Zip and/or Wind Shirt. I also am not sure if the 150 is enough or if the 17.5 or 250 is a better choice. I personally believe for me the lighter the better. I previously had a Columbia Polyester Long Sleeve but as some have mentioned, it really pilled and ultimately one snag opened up a hole that I didn't want to mess with. This discussion of Capilene vs. Merino has me sold on at least purchasing a long sleeve merino shirt.

Thanks for any help and for you insightful post.

[egilbe]

Minus 33 has some really good stuff. I like their baselayer bottoms better than the Icebreaker or Smartwool. I have an Ibex hoody, it fits comfortably, although it shrunk a bit more than I expected, even though I bought a size larger than I normally would get...and it was damn expensive. I love my minus 33 wool beanie and glove liners. Fit is pretty good, even after washing.

[Dogwood]

Gbolt, I'm yet too observe the exact layering pieces on any two hikers so keep that in mind with what I'm offering.

For me, I save the HEAVY Ibex Shaq Hoodie and the Icebreaker 320 wt for more specialized occasions like wet COLD northern hiking in spring and maybe late fall mountaineering/summit bids at a moderate pace. I use them in winter too when I'm not going as fast and light as typical.

I would say my Icebreaker 200 wt GT and Ibex Indie 195 wt get used the most and are the most breathable which I prioritize. With the Smartwool 250 wt coming in right after that depending on..... Link to the Icebreker GT and notice the mesh down the sides. Mine additionally has a mesh shoulder panel of material(not in that picture). I'll often carry one of those pieces, light/mid wt merino tee, and a light wt synthetic vest like a Montbell Thermawrap, Patagonia Nano Puff, or TNF Thermoball. I'll accessorize with running gloves and a merino beanie for extremity warmth. I tend to resemble an Ultra runner when in thru-hiker mode. I'll take a Zpacks Challenger Cuben Fiber/eVent or Marmot Mica Rain Jacket, and/or a Montbell Tachyon Wind Jacket with those to often round out my torso pieces and then add/delete as I see needed but my apparel line up is only finalized after carefully reserching weather, etc. I like rain jackets with hoods to double layer over my head and hand pockets both for extra warmth if needed. I like long sleeved base and mid layers to all have deep chest zips and monkey finger holes.


I have three long sleeved 1/4 zip tops made by Minus 33. The Allagash 170 wt I listed and two others of slightly heavier wt but not the Kobuk. I bought all the Minus 33 pieces new for under $45 as backups as I employ merino a lot and hike a lot. I wear merino off the trail as well or in other activities/sports. Two of them I bought for $28. They have lasted exceptionally well for the do re mi but again they aren't employed as often. The fit on all these is a bit more loose and the chest zips are not as deep as the Icebreaker, Ibex and Smartwool zips which have a more athletic slim fit. NOR do they have different mesh or materials in their arms or down the sides of the torso hence making them less breathable.

[Dogwood]

I learned the hard way after damaging several merino tops if I'm going to drop the do re mi on these pieces I better learn how to take care of them. It's not hard, just different. I NEVER place my pricey merino tops in with heavy FULL loads of really grungy mixed gear with unzipped zippers, cord locks, dangling cords, unsecured opened Velcro(especially adjustable Velcro wrist cuffs), stuff with safety pins attached, unsnapped snaps, clasps, etc. I NEVER wash in HOT water or dry on HIGH HEAT. Too many people are in the habit of cooking their clothes. I may use a lower dryer setting to remove some or all the water in a separate dryer with only my merino or very light wt pieces in a reduced size load NOT stuffing the dryer but I usually dry flat. I usually separate my merino and wash separately. I ALWAYS check the dryer for anything sharp. If anything metal is protruding or junk(pins, safety pins, tacks, Barbie pins, paper clips, push pins, pens, etc) is jammed in the dryer holes I find a different dryer or laundromat. I ALWAYS wash and dry in CLEAN front loaders. I use appropriate detergents in SMALL quantities, OR NONE AT ALL. YES, I said no detergent at all. It works for me as I'll often wash my few merino pieces separately in a reduced smaller load on a gentle cycle but with a FULL load of water. On many LD hikes I'm regularly rinsing my merino, which is a low stink natural material to begin with, so no need to smell like laundry detergent.

[kibs]

I like Capilene if it has the odor retardent added.

[Cotton Terry]

For my 2016 thruhike, I'm planning on using the Under Armor Heat Gear short sleeve undershirt (which I'll wear all the time) with the Smartwool 250 midweight when needed. I still have on my gear list an REI fleece AND a Marmot Zeus down jacket. I know I don't need the fleece and the Zeus, but I can't decide which one to leave behind. I've rationalized the Zeus will be warmer, but the fleece better in wet conditions. Sorry for taking this off the topic of base layers. Suggestions?

[Tundracamper]

I had been thinking about "upgrading" to Merino but quickly changed my mind after trying on a mid weight IceBreaker top. I could not get it off fast enough it itched so bad.

Do all Merino brands have the same feel and wear - or might it be possible to find a non-itchy layer for myself? I have some synthetics that are quiet comfy.


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[Dogwood]

Maybe, there are individuals allergic in some degree to wool or are very sensitive but merino is an ultra fine thin long stranded wool that when knitted in loops has a extremely soft hand. Absolutely, through the processing and grading of merino wool it can affect it being itchy/itchier though through the addition of chemicals, dying, washing, shearing, spinning, knitting, looping, combing, etc



Ultra fine merino strands are longer and the sheath smoother compared to other types of lower grades of wool leaving it softer and in the proper knitting of merino buries the ends of the strands into the material that might make some itch. Cheaper lower grade wool is a shorter fiber and through the processing exposes more of the pointed ends and rougher scaled sheath to the touch.



I'm not a seamstress but I can say for sure different merino torso apparel next to my skin as a base layer can have a significantly different feel.



And again, some merino torso base layer apparel, like the Icebreaker, Ibex and Smartwool I listed, are rather form fitting or have slim athletic fits. Possibly a looser/roomier/less restrictive fitting ultrafine merino base layer could be the ticket to an itchless merino experience.



If you don't have an allergic reaction when wearing merino socks you probably are not allergic to merino. It's something in the processing that's causing the itch.

[Vegan Packer]

I like Capilene if it has the odor retardent added.

I think that Patagonia is now applying this treating to all models in the line.

[gbolt]

For my 2016 thruhike, I'm planning on using the Under Armor Heat Gear short sleeve undershirt (which I'll wear all the time) with the Smartwool 250 midweight when needed. I still have on my gear list an REI fleece AND a Marmot Zeus down jacket. I know I don't need the fleece and the Zeus, but I can't decide which one to leave behind. I've rationalized the Zeus will be warmer, but the fleece better in wet conditions. Sorry for taking this off the topic of base layers. Suggestions?

Not taking it off topic at all. I have heard good things about UA Heat Gear (through an athletic sport side); but beware that it often is too "hot" when used as a single layer for a thru hike. The Marmot Zeus is more of a non hiking camp outer layer for early starts. The REI fleece may still be needed for a hiking layer. I moved away from fleece to a Cap 4 Pro Zip because it was lighter weight for warmth ratio. Therefore, I don't really use a fleece mid layer. I do have a fleece vest that I think about but haven't used it in a shakedown hike as of yet. Your on the right path.

Dogwood... thanks for your responses. Very insightful and well thought out. It's now down to the Ibex Indie, if I can get the cost down...or an Icebreaker 150 long sleeve that is currently going for $44. The wash instructions were very interesting. However, I was under the impression that on a thru hike...most just threw everything into one load for washing and then drying. Maybe the reason that clothing only last one long hike trip. The last thing to decide is what size? I know if I want athletic fit then it's a Large. So I am thinking to be safe and give some room for error to go XL.

This is a great thread! It swayed me from Capiline to Merino for some appllications and hikes; while reinforcing my love of Polyester for some hikes and shirts.

[fastfoxengineering]

I use a melanzana microgrid hoody mostly. Not technical garment, the 100 wt weighs 11.5 oz, but super comfortable and i basically live in it for week at a time. The hood is awesome design, becomes balaclava. With a light fleece beanie under the hood, my head is good down to 30 F for sleeping with quilt.

You kinda sold me on one of these. After looking them up they look awesome. Whats even better is they don't have the technical clothing look. Nice when your just trying to blend in when in a town.

[Cotton Terry]

Whatever you use, it'll be light years better than what Earl Shaffer had and he made it. Don't forget to put sand in your boots to toughen up your feet.

[Connie]

Not all merino is equal.

My first experience was at a store that had several brands on one clothing sales rack.

I couldn't believe the difference in texture and softness.

I decided I wouldn't purchase merino unless I was in a store to touch the fabric.

I found Icebreaker merino half-zip in a Portland, OR outdoor store marked down. I purchased that one. Now I have an Icebreaker merino balaclava, as well. I find the Icebreaker I am interested in purchasing and watch for it to be marked down because I just can't bring myself to pay the full retail price.

I think you can't go wrong with Icebreaker brand for quality and for softness.

[Del Q]

I love Merino up top, switched to Cap 4 last hike for bottoms, happier. Much lighter, great gear.

[Tipi Walter]

Sorry for the delay and leaving this Thread as a Cohutta trip interrupted me.

Here's the Answer to my own question regarding Merino Vs Capilene---I went the capilene route and will be dispensing with my silk long sleeve baselayer and smartwool merino midlayers (holed and worn out anyway) and going with this:

** Patagonia large Lightweight crew long sleeve baselayer. (With North Face hiking t-shirt over this baselayer for general hiking and backpacking). Gotta have a stand-alone t-shirt for those warm days of backpacking.)
** Patagonia large Midweight crew long sleeve over baselayer.
** Patagonia x-large Thermal Weight zip-neck hoody over these two.

This system is lighter than merino and will dry much faster than my merinos. And while silk is comfortable against the skin, it gets moist with sweat and takes forever to dry (and feels clammy) whereas the capilene is better in this regard. Over all this crap is my Polartec 300 fleece jacket---and a down Parka in severe cold.

[Just Bill]

old dog, new tricks :D
I still like to use a Merino 1 (as opposed to the lightweight crew), but that's the only merino piece I'll buy again.
Seems to be about one season or so then retirement... I think you'll find the Capeline to last 2-4 times as long as Merino on the other layers and less likely to cut into your Amy's veggie burrito budget.

Might consider the Patagonia Nano-Puff in the late spring (when it goes on sale) to swap with your Fleece... Though you'll find that closer to a 200wt in warmth.
All the wet performance benefits of fleece with less bulk and weight... unless you're depending on the bulk so it can't compress- which fleece is still king (Though a MYOG Apex vest or jacket is close).

[Tipi Walter]

Fleece bulk is minor when I can stuff loose fleece down the inside recesses of my pack or wad it up and keep it under the top lid of the pack.

My Amy's veggie chili budget has taken a tough blow with the purchase of these new Patagonia layers: THEY AIN'T CHEAP! But heck, it's a rare upgrade with as you say a better longevity record.

And merino layers are heavy. Take forever to dry when clammy and/or wet. Will my Patagonia stink?? Merino never did. It feels like I'm back in my old polypropylene days of 1978.

[Just Bill]

I haven't had any stink issues with capeline in general... one or two of my Cap 1's get a little funky here and there... hence the Merino 1 remaining in the rotation.
That said, we do cloth diapers for the kiddos so every couple months I just do a load of them with ECO SPROUT.
http://www.amazon.com/Sprout-Laundry-Detergent-Fresh-Linen/dp/B0066Y0VD0

Though still stuck with a desk job, thankfully I can mostly wear what I want to work so I wear all this stuff pretty well year round.

Generally speaking... March and October are inventory turn-overs for Patagonia.
The sales start as 30, 40, and 50% off finally for the big one. The risk being that with each sale they sell out of stuff and you may not get what you want.
But now that you know what you like, and what fits... just patiently sit in yer Hilleberg and watch for the sales. You can sign up on the website for notice, drool suitably over the new offerings in the catalouge, tear out the pages you are interested to remind you come sale time and tinder pile the rest. Some years I get stuff, other years I don't. I've probably got a good 20 pieces now over 5 years and all at least 40% off.

It can be annoying to wait 2 years to get that Cap 4 hoody, but yer a patient fella. ;)
And when they are in stock, I buy an extra if I can.

As a result I have some pretty ugly colors of stuff and interesting outfits, but like me your natural good looks, long hair, and charm will likely carry you through any fashion mishaps that may occur if anyone stops gawking at yer pack long enough to notice. And thankfully the trend towards neon pig tongue, violent indigo sunrise and chartreuse sunset color schemes seems to have passed for a few years. We're back to turtle head browns, El Cap granites, and desert sand for a few cycles I think.

[redseal]

My wife just wrote a review on Woolx and their merino wool base layers. Both of us are amazed at how soft their products are! If curious to know more, here is the review she wrote: http://www.backpackingengineer.com/gear-review-woolx-womens-midweight-collection/

[Tipi Walter]

My wife just wrote a review on Woolx and their merino wool base layers. Both of us are amazed at how soft their products are! If curious to know more, here is the review she wrote: http://www.backpackingengineer.com/gear-review-woolx-womens-midweight-collection/

It's the common story with fine merino baselayers---people either love them or not. Clearly you guys love them. And I do too---who wouldn't love something so wonderful and soft and comfy? I burned all my new Patagonia capilene layers and will return to merino. JUST KIDDING!!

But yes, merino Ibex or Icebreakers or Smartwools are dang nice and comfortable---why so many backpackers love them. But as mentioned, they are heavy and when wet take forever to dry. The only merinos I'm taking out on my next trip are my leggings. Full report forthcoming, God willing and the creeks don't rise.

[shelb]

I do the opposite. I find merino much more comfortable against my skin than synthetic.

Agreed! Plus, I find any synthetics stink very quickly with me! I can't even wear a synthetic shirt to work (teacher) without it reeking of BO at the end of the day!!

[Cadenza]

number one choice: Merino
number two choice: Silk
number three choice: ....uhm,....NO!

After two days with synthetics I smell like an acre of goats.
AND IT DOESN'T WASH OUT.

[Dogwood]

Tipi Walter - "And merino layers are heavy. Take forever to dry when clammy and/or wet."

When you said this I thought of this thread here on WB about 2 yrs ago and on BPL. The merino layers aren't all that much heavier and don't take forever to dry comparably. I think you have to consider what was said on that WB thread and what BPL researched. FWIW, I don't see a 1/3 to 50% dry times to be the end all be all when making these comparisons. When I'm carrying two tees possibly a synthetic or a wool/synthetic blend AND a 100% merino dry times play less of a critical role in many of my hiking/weather situations. And, again it appears we're falling into mistakenly seeing things in apparel as a duality...either synthetic or wool...and that is not the case. For example there are blends and new treatments of both merino and synthetics.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-98385.html

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/comfort_moisture_transport_wool_synthetic_clothing .html#.VlPbhPmrSUl

[Jim Adams]

to me there is no comparison....the wool has it!

[Deacon]

Somehow it's just ok to wear wool wet. Not uncomfortable, IMHO.

[Just Bill]

Tipi Walter - "And merino layers are heavy. Take forever to dry when clammy and/or wet."

When you said this I thought of this thread here on WB about 2 yrs ago and on BPL. The merino layers aren't all that much heavier and don't take forever to dry comparably. I think you have to consider what was said on that WB thread and what BPL researched. FWIW, I don't see a 1/3 to 50% dry times to be the end all be all when making these comparisons. When I'm carrying two tees possibly a synthetic or a wool/synthetic blend AND a 100% merino dry times play less of a critical role in many of my hiking/weather situations. And, again it appears we're falling into mistakenly seeing things in apparel as a duality...either synthetic or wool...and that is not the case. For example there are blends and new treatments of both merino and synthetics.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-98385.html

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/comfort_moisture_transport_wool_synthetic_clothing .html#.VlPbhPmrSUl


One thing to note... the BPL article is for the next to skin layer weights. I'm still a general fan of Merino 1 type weights, though even that is a 70/30 ish blend depending on what season/year you buy them.

Though to back up both observations;
In a 150-200g wt, the drytime is fairly negligible- but there. And not all synthetics are equal when wet, while most wools are.
In most of the heavier weight pieces Tipi is talking about... the dry times and wet weights (as well as stretch in wool) is much more obvious.

Flip a coin on the next to skin layers, but I agree with Tipi, as you build past the first layer I've found the Capilene to do better overall.
Toss in the cost and durability advantages (and seasonal sales) and wool has migrated over the last few years from my closet.

Did you ever use that Cocona Fiber shirts we were once discussing?
Despite my preference, the sustainability argument does favor these types of fibers... just haven't had time to add that debate to my plate personally.

[David Miller]

Forgive my off topic post but I find tons of Merino, Cashmere and Silk tops at the thrift store for next to nothing. Found a beautiful long sleeve 100 % silk last week for 3 bucks. Buying this way cost and durabulity are taken out of the equation. I love the feel of Merino or Silk in my sleeping bag on a cool night. I carry two short sleeves one synthetic and one Merino. I often take my shirt off along the trail and rinse it out in a stream to wash off the sticky salt and keep the odor down. I like the feel of the synthetic fabric when it's hot and I'm sweating like a pig but prefer the natural fibers when it's cold.

[Dogwood]

Good pts to consider JB.


"Did you ever use that Cocona Fiber shirts we were once discussing?
Despite my preference, the sustainability argument does favor these types of fibers... just haven't had time to add that debate to my plate personally."

Yes, I have looked at the 37.5 TM/Cocona fiber) light wt very breathable running shirts from New Balance and ASICS. I have two. I've very pleased with them overall as far as dry times, breathing, evaporative cooling, price, and OK compressability. I get a little pilling in my two shirts. Yes, I have considered the sustainability but which I see as also a marketing direction. The thicker insulation Cocona I'm not nearly as impressed with on a side to side comparison against the top synthetic insulations which I too see, for my uses, as Primaloft. But, I have made no purchases of or comparisons with the thicker Cocona fiber insulation jackets or, I think possibly now, hardshells.

[MuddyWaters]

I value the low moisture absorption of synthetics. And silverfish eat holes in merino clothing. Not to mention mice like it too. Lost a couple merino tops to silverfish. As well as $$$ wool pant and blazer.

[Dogwood]

Again, I will not get into seeing this as only a duality of choice. It's not a one is good;the other is bad situation. Different apparel for different uses and different systems.

[Hosh]

+1 especially when you have 3 drawers full of both kinds. :banana

[Casey & Gina]

Wool retains a fair bit of warmth when wet.

[msupple]

In my opinion this is the best of both worlds. It's a merino/capilene blend which retains the best qualities of both materials. I love them.

http://www.patagonia.com/us/merino-wool-baselayers

[High Mileage]

Synthetics get stinky and feel assed out after a few days, too funky for me.