View Full Version : Blood Mt parking issues
This is both a rant, and an FYI for those wanting to park at the Byron Reece parking area at Neel Gap...
Got a ticket this weekend. I'm not alone. The last 3 times I've been there, I've not been able to get an actual parking space, so I parked on the side of the road as I had done the previous 2 times, as everyone does because they have to. If there are 20 spaces there, there were 20 others parked in the "no parking" areas, some quite creatively.
Now, a no parking area is a no parking area, so they decided to enforce it and I'll have to pay the ticket. My rant is that there is literally nowhere to go - no real viable option. There is a sign at the end of the one way semicircle as you leave the parking area that says to go park at Vogel, and I presume take the Duncan Ridge trail from there to Blood Mt. That's a completely different hike plan and a $3 park entry fee. Hey, I don't mind the fee, but the option to go do a different hike than what was planned doesn't seem like a reasonable option to me.
No parking is posted along Hwy 19 north of where the AT crosses and I didn't notice, but didn't see parking on the south side either - and I'm sure I would've seen the parked cars there is there was any. Blood Mt is a very popular day hike for all kinds of hikers, and I do mean all kinds! So, I don't think this problem is going away. Lots of folks do overnites in the area, and so the parking lot always has cars in it, its large by most trail head standards, but its small in terms of actual use. If you don't get one of a dozen or so unused spaces by early a.m. - I guess what you're supposed to do is plan another hike for that same day, or go home.
There are options for different hikes beside Vogel. Lake Winfield Scott is a great one. But again, a lot of these day hikers aren't going to do that. Those of us who know about that loop might want to utilize it more often.
If anyone has more info about where to park in the area if one wanted to do the Blood Mt hike, or loop via Freeman, please post those options. Otherwise, feel free to rant.
p.s. the Freeman trail is rough; not exactly difficult, just a lot of rockyness to go up, over and around. After a wet evening, we had to really watch our footing the next morning on the trail. Still, I much prefer going around and up Blood as opposed to the short way.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-66032.html
This came up on a google search. I did look here first, but then I'm search challenged. So, this has been going on a while. Here's a synopsis:
Pay the bill.
Question: Other popular spots aren't enforced, why is this one?
Answer: Parking is limited as a matter of reducing hiker traffic for the sake of the trail and environment.
Um, as a hiker, I've got no problem taking other trails, BUT, that's something I want to be able to plan for. It shouldn't cost me $50 to find out that something will for sure be enforced to the point that I must cancel the plans I had. Keep in mind, that on this particular day, I've got a non-hiker dad and 2 11yr olds with me. None of the other Blood options were a good fit, nor was the timing of driving to LWS for the other best option. I certainly could have taken them over to Hogpen Gap and climbed both Wildcat and Cowrock.
Look, I'll pay the ticket and move on, but IMO this type of "planning" is simply punitive to those who don't know any better, including a lot of folks who read a blurb in the AJC about hiking Blood Mt and just go. Not even a "parking is limited" really makes sense, because that should mean having to walk up to a half mile or so if needed to be able to park where there is no "no parking" sign. Not Blairsville. In RMNP they have a shuttle to deal with number of folks wanting to visit certain busy trailheads. Those trails seem to be doing just fine. Sounds to me like there is an managing authority here that just wants to be an authority and not really manage.
Pedaling Fool
10-15-2015, 14:12
I remember that issue. According to some locals on the thread http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/66032-Parking-Tickets-at-Byron-Reece-Trailhead they reduced the size of that parking lot.
Why would they do that?
Apparently to reduce traffic on the trail, but that seems like wishful thinking to me. I am not anti-govt, so I'm not going to say its a scam to make money. No, rather I think its just bad management, wishful thinking for well intended reasons, but completely impractical, and worst of all, shows no compassion for the public with regard to execution of the idea.
Mockernut
10-15-2015, 21:35
I've had parking issues with regard to space at several road crossings. Dicks Creek Gap for one is often full. I've even gotten to Woody Gap when it was at complete overflow and had to drive around to Hogpen instead to do a totally different hike. There are lots of options but I understand the frustration of not being able to park. Unicoi has a huge parking area and I've seen it get loaded down. There just is a limit based on where the road crosses the trail.
I do think the improvements made at the Byron Reece were to keep the place decent and organized from what used to be sort of a mess. Also, if there were 20 more parking spots there on some days, they would still be full. I'm imagining that some folks drove past the spot you parked in and went elsewhere knowing about the enforcement. FWIW, I've never been there on a weekend when there weren't cars with parking tickets on them. Fair warning...it gets enforced.
Slo-go'en
10-16-2015, 09:49
So, you knew parking there would be a problem on a nice fall weekend unless you got there really early, but you went anyway?
Two solutions to this problem:
1) get there really early
2) plan to go somewhere else from the start.
Yeah, thanks guys. I know of at least one person who drove past the spot where I parked looking to go elsewhere... oh, wait, that was me! Yeah, about that "elsewhere" thing... there isn't. Look, my rant is less about me, because as you pointed out, I did know that it overflowed and that there were no parking signs. OK, I'll pay my ticket, its my fault, no one else's. And I at least know enough about the area to have made a Plan B on the spot. Double my fault.
The thing that makes this trailhead different is the clientele. Folks who haven't been here before, which kinds leads to what I fell into, "well, everybody else is parked along the side, guess I will, too" type of mentality. Hey, I know better now, right? But the problem is, and this is the crux of my rant, that this trailhead will continue to get novice hikers and others who have no familiarity with it other than its listed as where to park in the "Things To Do in N.Ga" article, book, etc. And who likely don't have a clue what might be a reasonable option for a hike if they choose not to park there. And who likely have no reason to think they need to make a Plan B and do some research on that beforehand. So, they're going to do just exactly what they've been doing, parking where they can and pay for it later.
For instance, if I was coming up with my kids and didn't know anything about it except having looked up online info, my line of thought would be that this is where I park to access the trailhead. When I get there, I see all the spots are full. I keep driving until I get to the exit where there is a sign that says you can park at Vogel and hike to Blood Mt from there. I go there, pay my $3 fee to get in, and go to the visitor center to find out that the trail to Blood Mt is 12m on the difficult rated Duncan Ridge trail. Screw that I say, I'll go back and find a spot on the side of the road. Can't find one where there isn't a No Parking sign, and its very limited anyway due to terrain. So I go back into the BR parking area, I see a number of other cars parked along the side of the road, and decide I might as well do that, too.
Now, if I want to limit the number of hikers accessing this trail, knowing what I should know about the popularity of this trail and who comes here, I'm NOT going to passively rely on parking enforcement to have a trickle down effect. Quite obviously, that's not working, though I assume it is buying someone's lunch. So, therefore, my rant is that BR is NOT managed for the purpose that it is supposedly managed for - preserving the environment with reasonable human access to that environment. It does nothing to prevent the traffic getting there, and once there, the traffic is going to do exactly what I described above, as is the evidence. Well, maybe they don't drive down to Vogel.
There will continue to be an endless stream of folks coming from all around to this Blood Mt trailhead through sources that have nothing to do with the USFS. The problem the USFS has wasn't made by them, and they likely are employing standard practices which would probably get heeded more at a place like Dicks Creek - which I was just there parking on the grass without issue. Different clientele. So, curb your solutions directed at me, my rant really isn't about me. Its about the situation where I think there is a clear problem with the management of the area, unrelated to the effect that problem had on me.
Mockernut
10-16-2015, 15:27
What would your solution be? Not enforce the NO PARKING areas, create more parking spots by clearing the woods, or just allowing folks to whatever they want to do? Is there an option 4? I understand your frustration but not sure what the answer is that you seek.
Sarcasm the elf
10-16-2015, 20:33
What would your solution be? Not enforce the NO PARKING areas, create more parking spots by clearing the woods, or just allowing folks to whatever they want to do? Is there an option 4? I understand your frustration but not sure what the answer is that you seek.
They could start by posting much more obvious signage, or better yet painting "No Parking" right on the paved shoulder, maybe a sign right at the actual trailhead that says "If you leave your car on the shoulder you will he ticketed." I have only been there two times, both times on a weekday, but I wouldn't have thought twice about parking in the shoulder to go for a hike. In many parts of New England where I hike regularly you are supposed to park on the shoulder, so this is news to me that you can't do it at blood mountain.
I think the OP's point is that the current setup is setting people up for failure, especially those not familiar with the area, and I would tend to agree.
scrabbler
10-16-2015, 22:07
I think the OP's point is that the current setup is setting people up for failure, especially those not familiar with the area, and I would tend to agree.
Much like any big city that you arrive in and plan to park in a deck on a popular day. You need to have Plan B in mind. And Plan C.
Sarcasm the elf
10-16-2015, 22:13
Much like any big city that you arrive in and plan to park in a deck on a popular day. You need to have Plan B in mind. And Plan C.
Did you read my post? They are ticketing for parking on the shoulder, a practice that is perfectly acceptable on a great many trailheads and they have it signed poorly. Signing it better is the best way to actually encourage people to follow the law, Isn't that the whole point?
Waxing over some version of "well they should have known better" doesn't do anything to fix an otherwise easily solved problem.
mtntopper
10-16-2015, 23:13
Reading the ops post he said he saw the no parking sign. No Parking means no parking!
Slo-go'en
10-16-2015, 23:15
In many parts of New England where I hike regularly you are supposed to park on the shoulder, so this is news to me that you can't do it at blood mountain.
An example is the parking lot on RT 2 which accesses the AMC Mount Madison hut. Cars parked half a mile down the side of the highway is a common sight. But the road is wide and straight at that point with a decent shoulder to pull 100% off the road onto. I don't think this is the case near Neel Gap, which is more of a narrow, twisty road with little or no breakdown lane. I base this on what I've seen at the gap and similar roads in the area. I bet cars pull off into the drainage ditch on the side of the road there.
Sarcasm the elf
10-16-2015, 23:22
An example is the parking lot on RT 2 which accesses the AMC Mount Madison hut. Cars parked half a mile down the side of the highway is a common sight. But the road is wide and straight at that point with a decent shoulder to pull 100% off the road onto. I don't think this is the case near Neel Gap, which is more of a narrow, twisty road with little or no breakdown lane. I base this on what I've seen at the gap and similar roads in the area. I bet cars pull off into the drainage ditch on the side of the road there.
I'm not arguing that parking on the shoulder should be allowed. I'm saying that if there is a persistant problem of out of towners not knowing that they aren't allowed to park there then perhaps the simple matter of better sineage would both prevent well intentioned people from getting ticketed and prevent people who disregarded it from claiming ignorance.
Spacelord
10-17-2015, 09:47
Most people when hitting a new trail will read all the signs around the trailhead before hitting the trail. I can't see a sign and not read it most of the time. I would suspect that this is about protecting the area around the parking lot and not limiting the amount of hikers. I've never met a ranger or dnr officer in Ga. that was not psyched to have people using unfunded resources. Only my opinion and perspective so take it with a grain of salt.
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Spacelord
10-17-2015, 09:48
Under funded..
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Mockernut
10-17-2015, 11:27
The Byron Reece parking area has very obvious and extensive NO PARKING signs posted. The OP saw the sign and unless you were impaired in some way, there is really no way to miss them. No more signs needed, please.
The real joy at Neels Gap is the tourists who park at the store and then head up the trail for a "quick walk". Towing has been known to occur in some circumstances...now that makes for a happy shopper...and there are signs warning for that as well.
This seems like a pretty silly rant. Although I have not been over at the Reece parking area lately, I can assure you there used to be plenty of no parking signs. I have no reason to believe they have been removed.
The OP appears to know what other options are. Best bet is Lake Winfield Scott, but there is a fee to park. If too cheap to pay the fee you can always park on the side of Wolfpen Gap Rd (SR180) near the intersection of Happy Hollow Cir. and walk the road up to Henry Gap.
I guess its par for the course, but folks seem to be focusing on the fact that there were no parking signs, I parked there, got a ticket, and I guess they think I'm ranting about that. That would indeed be silly.
Thank you STE for getting it. I think what you said about the folks coming in being setup for failure really hits the nail on the head for what I'm actually trying to rant about. Not only does it setup folks where a high percentage of them really can't make different plans, but in terms of the USFS, it sets them up for failure as well. Sounds like a lot of money is being earned, but collection baggage is costly.
And I'm not looking for answers for myself. Just ranting and hoping for discussion, which might lead to actual thoughts, which have a chance at leading to a solution. For now, I'm with STE in that the signage does not go far enough for the type of area that it is. They need to decide what they really want to do with the area, and really manage it. You put the no parking signs at Dicks Creek, and folks will stay off the grass and that trailhead won't get as much traffic. That is, of course, the standard USFS plan. That ain't gonna work here - you'd be setting up everybody associated with that area for failure.
This seems like a pretty silly rant. Although I have not been over at the Reece parking area lately, I can assure you there used to be plenty of no parking signs. I have no reason to believe they have been removed.
The OP appears to know what other options are. Best bet is Lake Winfield Scott, but there is a fee to park. If too cheap to pay the fee you can always park on the side of Wolfpen Gap Rd (SR180) near the intersection of Happy Hollow Cir. and walk the road up to Henry Gap.
Fair options for the knowledgable hiker. Not fair options for the typical day hiker at Blood.
Another good option for Blood Mtn is to park at Wolfpen Gap (SR180) and hike the Duncan Ridge Trail to Blood. About 2.5 miles from the gap to the top of Blood. Never seen a parking issue at Wolfpen.
If you think the parking problem is bad now, wait until 'The Walk In The Woods' effect occurs.
Reading the ops post he said he saw the no parking sign. No Parking means no parking!
I believe I covered that part and I believe I agreed with your sentiment, so what's your point?
For me, that process works. I learned, and unless I get a little more flush with dough, it won't happen again. If I were the average person going to Blood, then activity would die down just as the USFS wants it to. Just saying that any expectation that its going to work in the long run with what is in reality the average clientele visiting this trailhead is foolish.
No Directions
10-18-2015, 06:13
That section of trail has been on my stay away from list for years. It is by far the most popular section of the AT in GA. Many of the people that hike that section have no clue what a blaze is and just hike willy nilly through the woods creating a web of trails. In some places it's hard to tell where the actual trail is. Not to mention disregard for the switchbacks. The summit is far too crowded on a nice weekend. The hike to Blood Mountain from Vogel is more scenic anyway.
soulrebel
10-18-2015, 10:22
I got a $60 ticket there last year when I took Grandpa and the kids for a hike. It seemed obvious that there are plenty of places to park but they decided to turn it into a money maker the last few years by posting no parking signs everywhere. There wasn't even a visible sign in the area where I was ticketed (right on the edge of the lot). This year we decided not to go. If they want to limit traffic, they've done a good job. They've also made quite a few local parks inaccessible financially for most families. I don't goto the woods to pay $5 for unsecured parking and regulated hiking/paddling/biking. Along the Chattachoochee River, it used to be free, but now it costs $10 (5 putin/5 takeout in parking fees to go float or walk on the river for a couple hours. You used to be able to goto the fish hatchery family fishing pond after school for some "free" fun during the week, but now those hours promptly end at 3pm making it impossible if you attend school. The overcharging, over-regulation, almost entrapment type situations that occur in the parks and on the trails has kept us at home more and more...I even jokingly mentioned selling all my gear yesterday as we hardly go on extended trail trips anymore. Getting people outdoors and active is hard enough these days, the officials and taxmen are making it even more difficult. GL out there.
Slo-go'en
10-18-2015, 11:20
The overcharging, over-regulation, almost entrapment type situations that occur in the parks and on the trails has kept us at home more and more..
The government (be it local, state or federal) has three choices when faced with rising costs.
1) rise taxes 2) cut services 3) charge fees.
Since they can't rise taxes (and we all know why) they use option 2 and 3.
When it comes to hiking and other outdoor sports, there are still plenty of free options, they just aren't at the most popular (and therefore over crowded) places.
Traveler
10-18-2015, 16:55
So there are no issues with vehicles damaging roadsides? No juvenile behavior like littering and that kind of stuff along roadsides? No vandalism/theft from parked cars outside of the parking area? No accidents involving parked vehicles along the road sides? No pedestrian issues from roadside parking on busy traffic days? How many traffic citations have been issued along that stretch of road for speeding or reckless driving that could or has impacted parked vehicles and people moving in and out of them has there been in the past two years? Whats the accident rate per mile along the park roads?
An uptick in enforcement typically is the result of some kind of problem or occurrence that officials are trying to avoid more of. If no parking signs are poorly set up, they get renewed. Periodic enforcement of no parking rules is necessary to keep people from parking in no parking areas with impunity.
I doubt its a revenue issue, given it costs some serious money to resign and perform high profile enforcement of these and other motor vehicle laws. Some local research will probably find the drivers for this, unless it was just time to refresh the parking restriction signs and get people who were accustomed to breaking the rules into line.
Abatis1948
10-18-2015, 19:37
When taxes are cut and funding is cut, where do you propose the funds come from to maintain these areas?
I got a $60 ticket there last year when I took Grandpa and the kids for a hike. It seemed obvious that there are plenty of places to park but they decided to turn it into a money maker the last few years by posting no parking signs everywhere. There wasn't even a visible sign in the area where I was ticketed (right on the edge of the lot). This year we decided not to go. If they want to limit traffic, they've done a good job. They've also made quite a few local parks inaccessible financially for most families. I don't goto the woods to pay $5 for unsecured parking and regulated hiking/paddling/biking. Along the Chattachoochee River, it used to be free, but now it costs $10 (5 putin/5 takeout in parking fees to go float or walk on the river for a couple hours. You used to be able to goto the fish hatchery family fishing pond after school for some "free" fun during the week, but now those hours promptly end at 3pm making it impossible if you attend school. The overcharging, over-regulation, almost entrapment type situations that occur in the parks and on the trails has kept us at home more and more...I even jokingly mentioned selling all my gear yesterday as we hardly go on extended trail trips anymore. Getting people outdoors and active is hard enough these days, the officials and taxmen are making it even more difficult. GL out there.
...The summit is far too crowded on a nice weekend...
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=61348&c=535
When taxes are cut and funding is cut, where do you propose the funds come from to maintain these areas?
I understand the argument, but its a little too easy to throw out there, don't you think? I'm not saying the solution is easy, but by this point judging from the similar 2010 thread, I'd like to see more direct management of the issues.
IMO, you're either working toward building additional parking to accommodate the obvious need, or else you're working on a way to limit folks coming in to the Byron Reece parking area as well as doing more to educate the public of the issues there in order to reduce day hiker traffic. For all I know, both of these are in the works and I just haven't seen any evidence of that. If not, then I think maintaining the status quo is an awful way to manage this particular area.
ytsuejam
10-19-2015, 14:42
.....um......maybe you could get there earlier? Or set up a shuttle?
Slo-go'en
10-19-2015, 22:04
I understand the argument, but its a little too easy to throw out there, don't you think? I'm not saying the solution is easy, but by this point judging from the similar 2010 thread, I'd like to see more direct management of the issues.
IMO, you're either working toward building additional parking to accommodate the obvious need, or else you're working on a way to limit folks coming in to the Byron Reece parking area as well as doing more to educate the public of the issues there in order to reduce day hiker traffic. For all I know, both of these are in the works and I just haven't seen any evidence of that. If not, then I think maintaining the status quo is an awful way to manage this particular area.
The bottom line is that fixing problems like these are way, way, way, way down on the list of priorities for the state/county/town to work on. When and if there is any significant road work thru there, that is the only time a parking lot issue is likely to be addressed. And even then it might be a battle to get them to spend the extra money.
Options are limited by cost.
A). Build a bigger parking lot. But how big? Walmart big? Who pays for the clearing and gravel and what-not? USFS? Local AT Club? Charge a fee to help pay for it? Collect a fee using the envelopes-and-lockbox system with once- or twice-a-day enforcement to limit personnel costs?
B). Set up a reservation system, like State Park campsites, for the parking sites. Publish it, and put up a sign at the parking site about the reservation system. This would entail more costs, but would avoid building a huge parking lot. But would entail a gate and a person. So, expensive, but only needed on weekends.
C). Partner with a local business (an outfitter maybe?) and set up a shuttle to nearest town. Post a sign that gives a phone number, and an address (and directions) to the shuttle pick-up site where you can park and catch the shuttle, the hours, and the fees for parking and/or the shuttle. Probably weekends only.
Just throwing things out there to show that there are viable alternatives. I like "C".
Agreed, I think a shuttle system makes more sense instead of doling out tickets for years on end every weekend. The sign at the end of the parking area says to go to Vogel, so I assume they have some parking to accommodate (more than I saw when I was there?). If so, the shuttle fee can be combined in some manner with the parking fee. State government making money off the USFS, that works, right? Otherwise, there are flat areas that could be used not too far past Vogel.
Funny sometimes what happens when you fix stuff that is supposedly "down the list" in terms of priorities. Just takes some discussion and thought. Not saying there might not be issues with this solution, but is it not a step in the right direction? Perhaps not if limiting foot traffic on the trail is a priority. if so, then I think you have to permit that lot to pay for improvements that ensure no one can park illegally, or that there are very few places where one could park illegally so it becomes much more obvious that its not a solution for the day's plans. Yeah, no parking means no parking, but as evidenced by the 2010 thread, that's really never been a good way of looking at the problem.
OK, for reference, I went to Max Patch this weekend. Every bit the same type of location that Blood Mt is in terms of the numbers and types of hikers. Has a parking lot about half the size of Byron Reece, and so cars line the dirt road around the lot. Now, there aren't any No Parking signs, so its completely legal to do so. But here's the thing, if you put No Parking signs at Max Patch, it wouldn't do squat to curtail the traffic there. People would still park along the side of the road despite if tickets were to be written. And driving to Lemon Gap to as an alternative if the lot were full is not really an option. I mean, it is, but its a totally different hike - a real hike as opposed to a simple climb up a hill. Unlike Blood, there are some connecting trails close by that are decent options in that they are not too much longer and close by, but that would be side of the road, too, as the only parking "lot" is the one at the main trailhead.
The management of the authority at Max Patch is much more common, whereas it is not common to give tix out left and right with seemingly no end to the practice. Again, this is the crux of my rant, that the USFS management at the Byron Reece lot is uncommonly punitive to the public. If you want my opinion on what the fix is, its to manage this area like most others are managed. Let me public come, and manage the damage as much as is reasonable given resources. Until it becomes a real problem where limiting public access becomes necessary, but if they're trying to prevent it from getting to that point, they are currently failing.
Spacelord
10-27-2015, 08:25
So will you park along side the road again at Byron Reece despite the ticket ?
Neither will the folks at Max Patch if no parking signs are put up.
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So will you park along side the road again at Byron Reece despite the ticket ?
Neither will the folks at Max Patch if no parking signs are put up.
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Correct that I won't at Blood, but if you had read all of what's been said here, you might say otherwise about Max Patch. Just like Blood, there is no other place to go. The question is not will those who get a ticket come back and park on the side of the road when they revisit... rather, its will people continue to go to this very publicized location, and the answer to that question is an emphatic Yes, IMO. I highly doubt that folks will make the considerable effort to go to Max Patch, and if there are No Parking signs up, not still park there. Its a moot point as there are no signs there as its managed just like most sites like this are.
Perhaps you are one that would not. I'm just saying that most folks who drive hours to get somewhere are going to expect to have sufficient parking, and will park where they have to in order to not have wasted their time travelling. Human nature. You can have a Keep Off the Grass sign, but if you don't make the sidewalk go somewhat near a straight line to where folks want to go, and you don't put up barriers, then a path will be worn in the grass.
Slo-go'en
10-27-2015, 13:22
Okay I found a satellite photo of the Byron Reece parking lot. Looks to be a small lot off into the woods a bit off the highway. So, are people parking along the side of the access road or along the highway? I'm guessing the access road is too narrow to park along so their on the highway?
If they are parking along the short access road, that would be a National Forest issue. If their on the highway, that would be a state issue.
To get a bigger parking lot there, that would have to go through the NFS. The NFS can charge fees to park at trail heads. They do that up here in the Whites at popular trail heads. So, if they make the lot bigger, they would definitely start to charge fees for parking. I suppose a $5 day use fee is better then a $60 ticket.
You can probably see all of the parking in that small lot. That semi-circle of a drive into and out of that lot is about 20% parking lot, and the rest of the 80% of that circle is about 60% parkable. There is a small section along the main hwy down from Mountain Crossings where there might be space along the side to park. There are No Parking signs there and no one, of the very large crowd there that day, was parked on the hwy. Otherwise there is no space to park along the side of the hwy given the incline.
I really don't mind a fee to park and I'm actually surprised there isn't one at Byron Reece. There is a $3 fee at Lake Winfield Scott where its probably not needed.