Water and maps along AT in GSMNP.

[NeedingGrace]

I am leading a group of Boys Scouts doing a 50-miler on the AT through the GSMNP next summer. Looking at the maps, and reading some of the books I've purchased, it appears access to water sources won't be an issue, but I'm just wanting to due a little more research on the subject. I'm assuming the streams/springs aren't all right on the trail (maybe I'm wrong)...are their signs pointing you to water sources?

Also, I have the GSMNP map from the AT Conservancy (Nat Geo map), but I'm curious if anyone has a preference for another map or set of maps that might be more detailed? I realized this is a well marked trail, so, the map may not even come into play, but again, I just want to do some due diligence before going.

Our plan is to do the southern half of the park, hiking out to the Sawteeth and back (to Newfound Gap) to get us up to the 50 miles if that helps answer any questions.

Thanks,

Tony

[NeedingGrace]

Another question, what about shuttles in the area? Anyone recommend a specific company? There will be about 12 of us.

Thanks again!

Tony

[illabelle]

Tony,
First off, :welcome
It's always nice to have new people join the forum.

Second, to answer your questions, at the shelters there are usually signs indicating where the water source is. Where there are no signs, you can always ask other hikers, and there will be plenty during the summer months. Many times the water source is on the trail or easy to find.

The National Geographic map is a very good map. Many of us who hike the AT also invest in a trail guide, either the Companion (by the ATC) or The AT Guide (www.theatguide.com (http://www.theatguide.com)). Those resources give a much more detailed description of the trail than you can get from the NG map.

Last, but really important, is please acquaint yourself with the backcountry rules in the Smokies. There are limits on group size, plus you have to reserve space in the shelters. If your scout group is very small and you can live with the rules, go for it. Otherwise, start looking for an alternate 50-mile stretch. Maybe in the Smokies, but not on the AT, or maybe somewhere outside the Park. Lots of options out there. One of my favorites is Grayson Highlands in SW Virginia - can't beat wild ponies!

[illabelle]

http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm
https://smokiespermits.nps.gov/

Following is just the first three of the rules from the link above:

1. Camping is permitted only at designated backcountry campsites and shelters.

2. You may not stay at any backcountry campsite for more than 3 consecutive nights. You may not stay consecutive nights at campsite 113 or at any shelter.

3. Maximum party size is 8. Two parties affiliated with the same group may not stay in the same campsite or at the same shelter on the same night(s). Special permits may be issued for a few sites that accommodate parties of up to 12.

[NeedingGrace]

Thanks for the quick reply illabelle! I am very familiar with the Smokies, I visit it yearly, and I've hiked a short section of the trail near Clingman's Dome (maybe 3 miles). We had proposed several sections of the trail to hike, but this is what the scouts ended up voting on (which was good for me, since I was already familiar with the park). Yes, we will be breaking our group up into 2 patrols of 6 based on skill level, so the backcountry rules won't pose a problem for us as far as shelters are concerned. The group of 12 only comes into play when we're done (I'd prefer the early group wait and just take one shuttle instead of 2).

Thanks!

Tony

[NeedingGrace]

I do have a data book from the ATC, would the AT Guide be better (ie: more detail)? Or, is it just from a different source?

[MuddyWaters]

You would need to get every shelter spot in every shelter you plan.

If you truly have two groups, they will not have same schedule. If they do, you are only trying to scam the system. If groups associate together, they are ONE under NPS guidelines.

Even getting 6 shelter spots in a shelter you want is not guaranteed.

IMO, you really need to make different plans. There are few views, and no 50 mile AT sections accessible. The only map needed for gsmnp is the free trail map on website.

You cant make reservations until 30 day out, they become inflexible too, and that is not when you want to have to change plans. Plan something definite, not speculative. And something you can change dates by a day or so to accomodate weather or people and guarantee successful trip.

[illabelle]

In my opinion, the AT Guide is the best, but if you already have the data book, you don't need both. Honestly, you probably won't "need" either, since the trail is well-marked, and the water sources aren't hard to find.

As far as a shuttle, I'd suggest with a group that size, why not travel in two vehicles and self-shuttle? The group that is expected to finish earlier can have another activity to fill in time while they wait for the second group. If two vehicles isn't an option, you could contact somebody from the shuttle list linked at the bottom of this page:

http://appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/transportation-options

[Starchild]

There are a few water sources that are a bit off the AT, formally blueblazed, now the blue blazes removed from view of the AT, some of to former blue blazes remain, usually a bit down from the ones visable from the AT. The guide book + a GPS app (non cellular dependent) can make finding these now hidden sources accessible.

[NeedingGrace]

I get the feeling you don't like the GSMNP portion of the trail...lol.

If we have to camp in tents outside the shelter due to overbooking or thru-hikers beating us there, it'll be ok. We'll be bringing tents just in case.

It's not just the views, its the challenge for the boys. There are a couple of Balds, plus the option of hiking over to Clingman's Dome on the way, I think that'll be enough for us.

I'm not sure what you mean by scamming the system. One group with more advanced hikers would hike the extra distance to the next shelter, and that would be the plan. I'm not certain why that would be a problem. We're also discussing one group hiking NB and the other hiking SB so we would have cars waiting at each end.

I'm fully aware that there is no single starting point to finish point that is around 50 miles. However, by simply hiking out to the Sawteeth (just past Charlie's Bunion), and then back, we can get there with only about 4.5-5 miles of retracing our steps. My original plan wasn't to go a full 50, but the boys voted for it.

Our plans will be quite definite by the time we get there. That's why I'm asking questions 8-9 months early. I'm sorry if I've given the impression I'm being flimsy on the plans...


You would need to get every shelter spot in every shelter you plan.

If you truly have two groups, they will not have same schedule. If they do, you are only trying to scam the system. If groups associate together, they are ONE under NPS guidelines.

Even getting 6 shelter spots in a shelter you want is not guaranteed.

IMO, you really need to make different plans. There are few views, and no 50 mile AT sections accessible. The only map needed for gsmnp is the free trail map on website.

You cant make reservations until 30 day out, they become inflexible too, and that is not when you want to have to change plans. Plan something definite, not speculative. And something you can change dates by a day or so to accomodate weather or people and guarantee successful trip.

[NeedingGrace]

Awesome, thanks! We have been kicking around the idea of one group hiking NB and the other SB, which would mean we'd have cars waiting at each end. But, even if we hike the same direction, your idea of the early people getting the cars is a good idea...the only concern would be the BSA rules on scouts and adults and having enough people to make it happen (not everyone will be able to drive, so we may not have enough drivers to make it happen)...But, I might be able to figure out a way to make that happen.


In my opinion, the AT Guide is the best, but if you already have the data book, you don't need both. Honestly, you probably won't "need" either, since the trail is well-marked, and the water sources aren't hard to find.

As far as a shuttle, I'd suggest with a group that size, why not travel in two vehicles and self-shuttle? The group that is expected to finish earlier can have another activity to fill in time while they wait for the second group. If two vehicles isn't an option, you could contact somebody from the shuttle list linked at the bottom of this page:

http://appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/transportation-options

[NeedingGrace]

Great, thanks for the info! We will have non-cell GPS devices with us, so I'll try to plot some coordinates ahead of time.


There are a few water sources that are a bit off the AT, formally blueblazed, now the blue blazes removed from view of the AT, some of to former blue blazes remain, usually a bit down from the ones visable from the AT. The guide book + a GPS app (non cellular dependent) can make finding these now hidden sources accessible.

[HooKooDooKu]

First of all, trying to clarify exactly what section of the AT in GSMNP you plan to hike. It sounds like you plan to hike from Fontana out to Charlies Bunion and back to New Found Gap, which makes for a total of almost 60 miles.

If you have two vans, seems like your best solution to the issue of shuttles and needing to break up the group is to get one group to start at Fontana and the other group to start at New Found Gap. The 'weaker' group could hike DOWN to Fontana while the stronger group hikes UP to New Found Gap.

Every shelter along the AT in GSMNP has a water source near by. I think every one of them has a sign to point you in the general direction. Some shelters have a water source right beside the shelter, others you have to hike down hill a tenth to a quarter mile. However, during dry spells, some of these sources can dry up. When that is the case, there is usually a warning on the Temp Road Closures web page (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/temproadclose.htm).

Since you're not going to deviate from the AT, a map isn't really necessary. The trail is heavily traveled and the forest so dense that it's impossible to loose the trail even if the forest floor is covered in leaves or snow. Every trail intersection has sign posts, so there's no reason anyone should get lost if everyone simply pays attention. Most of the shelters are view able from the trail. On the southern half, the exceptions are Birch Spring Gap (no longer a shelter, only tent sites), Spence Field, and Mt Collins. I know Birch Spring Gap has a sign for the dead-end trail that leads to the camp site. Spence Field is about a quarter of a mile down Eagle Creek Tr and Mt Collins is located about a quarter mile down Sugarland Mtn Tr. On the north side, Pecks is located almost a half mile down Hughes Ridge Tr, while Tricorner is located on a short side trail about a tenth of a mile before Balsam Mtn. Tr.

Do you have plans yet for where the two groups will spend each night? Other than my suggestion of one group heads north and another group head south, I don't understand how you plan to have the whole group do 50 miles, yet break the groups in to two separate groups staying at different sites each night.

Another alternative that can allow you to avoid shuttles, break the groups up, and create one more challenging group and one easier group is to start in the middle (Clingman's Dome and/or New Found Gap) and do various forms of Out-n-Back (including Out-n-Back--Out-n-Back, like Clingman's to Silers, Back to Clingman's and out past New Found Gap, then back to New Found Gap or Clingman's).

[illabelle]

If we have to camp in tents outside the shelter due to overbooking or thru-hikers beating us there, it'll be ok. We'll be bringing tents just in case.

I'm fully aware that there is no single starting point to finish point that is around 50 miles. However, by simply hiking out to the Sawteeth (just past Charlie's Bunion), and then back, we can get there with only about 4.5-5 miles of retracing our steps. My original plan wasn't to go a full 50, but the boys voted for it.

Per the rules, the only people allowed to camp in tents at shelters are thru-hikers, and that's only if the shelter is full. In theory, if the shelter is full when you arrive, some of the thru-hikers inside are supposed to vacate the shelter and set up their tents. In practice, especially if you arrive late after everybody is already set up for the night, it probably won't happen. But that's the rules.

I'm confused about your itinerary. Originally you said you were going to hike in the southern half of the Park. Charlie's Bunion is in the north half, about 4 miles north of Newfound Gap. Also, I'm not familiar with the area you're calling the "Sawteeth."

[Slo-go'en]

With a group that large, I strongly suggest staying out of the park due to the regulations, the crowding and the expense. Just way too much trouble to deal with.

An easier (and better in my mind) hike would be Hot Springs to Erwin (67 miles, but could be shorted by getting out at Sam's Gap. There are also several other bail out points if needed). There are several tent campsites between shelters which might be large enough for a group of 12, which would be a good alternative to using the shelters. (But please, use an existing site. A group of 12 can really take out a section of woods) There are also easy shuttle options available at both ends.

[NeedingGrace]

Thanks for all the info, really appreciate it!

You are correct with the plan (either starting at Newfound Gap, and out to just past Charlies Bunion (the Sawteeth) and then down to Fontana or starting at the Dam and going north).

Every map I have indicates that Fontana Dam to Newfound Gap is about 42 miles, and then Newfound Gap to Charlie's Bunion is just around 3.5 miles (Sawteeth would make it right at 4 miles). So, an out an back would get us right to 50 miles. Is there something I'm misreading?

I'm not really worried about getting lost, it's pretty hard on any trail in the Smokies, I was more worried about missing water sources.

I do have shelter plans, one set is pretty much set in stone, the other is in flux right now (we are debating the direction for them to travel). If we go the same direction, the 2nd group will leave later (possibly placing cars at the end of the hike for shuttles) and then hiking less on Day 1. That's how we'd get our separation.

I'll add your suggestion about the weaker group to our list of options and run it by everyone.

Thanks for all your help!


First of all, trying to clarify exactly what section of the AT in GSMNP you plan to hike. It sounds like you plan to hike from Fontana out to Charlies Bunion and back to New Found Gap, which makes for a total of almost 60 miles.

If you have two vans, seems like your best solution to the issue of shuttles and needing to break up the group is to get one group to start at Fontana and the other group to start at New Found Gap. The 'weaker' group could hike DOWN to Fontana while the stronger group hikes UP to New Found Gap.

Every shelter along the AT in GSMNP has a water source near by. I think every one of them has a sign to point you in the general direction. Some shelters have a water source right beside the shelter, others you have to hike down hill a tenth to a quarter mile. However, during dry spells, some of these sources can dry up. When that is the case, there is usually a warning on the Temp Road Closures web page (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/temproadclose.htm).

Since you're not going to deviate from the AT, a map isn't really necessary. The trail is heavily traveled and the forest so dense that it's impossible to loose the trail even if the forest floor is covered in leaves or snow. Every trail intersection has sign posts, so there's no reason anyone should get lost if everyone simply pays attention. Most of the shelters are view able from the trail. On the southern half, the exceptions are Birch Spring Gap (no longer a shelter, only tent sites), Spence Field, and Mt Collins. I know Birch Spring Gap has a sign for the dead-end trail that leads to the camp site. Spence Field is about a quarter of a mile down Eagle Creek Tr and Mt Collins is located about a quarter mile down Sugarland Mtn Tr. On the north side, Pecks is located almost a half mile down Hughes Ridge Tr, while Tricorner is located on a short side trail about a tenth of a mile before Balsam Mtn. Tr.

Do you have plans yet for where the two groups will spend each night? Other than my suggestion of one group heads north and another group head south, I don't understand how you plan to have the whole group do 50 miles, yet break the groups in to two separate groups staying at different sites each night.

Another alternative that can allow you to avoid shuttles, break the groups up, and create one more challenging group and one easier group is to start in the middle (Clingman's Dome and/or New Found Gap) and do various forms of Out-n-Back (including Out-n-Back--Out-n-Back, like Clingman's to Silers, Back to Clingman's and out past New Found Gap, then back to New Found Gap or Clingman's).

[NeedingGrace]

Understood, I just know from reading the forums that sometimes people take the shelter (not even thru-hikers) so I wanted us to be prepared (believe me, I'd rather save the weight and not pack tents). I don't honestly believe we'll have much trouble getting to the shelters early enough. Day 1 is the only one that might be a little late. Otherwise, I'd expect to arrive by mid-afternoon at the very latest (hiking an average of just under 8 miles a day after day 1). Every trip I've done in the park has averaged about 2 miles an hour...

You have our itinerary pretty much right, we would need to hike a little into the northern portion (the sawteeth are labeled as a minor
point of interest on the Charlie's Bunion hike, just past Charlie's Bunion) to get to 50 miles, unless I've done the math wrong. That portion of the hike in the nothern section of the park would be just an out and back.


Per the rules, the only people allowed to camp in tents at shelters are thru-hikers, and that's only if the shelter is full. In theory, if the shelter is full when you arrive, some of the thru-hikers inside are supposed to vacate the shelter and set up their tents. In practice, especially if you arrive late after everybody is already set up for the night, it probably won't happen. But that's the rules.

I'm confused about your itinerary. Originally you said you were going to hike in the southern half of the Park. Charlie's Bunion is in the north half, about 4 miles north of Newfound Gap. Also, I'm not familiar with the area you're calling the "Sawteeth."

[NeedingGrace]

Thanks for the suggestion. We would definitely only camp in predefined sites (Outdoor Code and Leave No Trace are BSA Principles).

I'll have to take a look at the Hot Springs to Erwin hike.


With a group that large, I strongly suggest staying out of the park due to the regulations, the crowding and the expense. Just way too much trouble to deal with.

An easier (and better in my mind) hike would be Hot Springs to Erwin (67 miles, but could be shorted by getting out at Sam's Gap. There are also several other bail out points if needed). There are several tent campsites between shelters which might be large enough for a group of 12, which would be a good alternative to using the shelters. (But please, use an existing site. A group of 12 can really take out a section of woods) There are also easy shuttle options available at both ends.

[Slo-go'en]

Oh, you could do a one vehicle shuttle with the Hot Springs to Erwin trip. Drop the slow hikers off at one end, drive the fast hikers to the other end (you'll loose the better part of a day doing this), then give the keys to the other group when you pass each other in the middle. Or better yet, they have their own set of keys just in case. Since you all have cell phones, keeping track of each other won't be a problem either.

[MuddyWaters]

I get the feeling you don't like the GSMNP portion of the trail...lol.

If we have to camp in tents outside the shelter due to overbooking or thru-hikers beating us there, it'll be ok. We'll be bringing tents just in case.

It's not just the views, its the challenge for the boys. There are a couple of Balds, plus the option of hiking over to Clingman's Dome on the way, I think that'll be enough for us.

I'm not sure what you mean by scamming the system. One group with more advanced hikers would hike the extra distance to the next shelter, and that would be the plan. I'm not certain why that would be a problem. We're also discussing one group hiking NB and the other hiking SB so we would have cars waiting at each end.

I'm fully aware that there is no single starting point to finish point that is around 50 miles. However, by simply hiking out to the Sawteeth (just past Charlie's Bunion), and then back, we can get there with only about 4.5-5 miles of retracing our steps. My original plan wasn't to go a full 50, but the boys voted for it.

Our plans will be quite definite by the time we get there. That's why I'm asking questions 8-9 months early. I'm sorry if I've given the impression I'm being flimsy on the plans...

Your plans are speculative until you have reservations, which you have no guarantee of getting the # you want. You wont know till 30 days before.

30 days before you may need to change plans, or tell a kid he cant come.

There is no tenting for you. You have a reservation for each person, or you dont go. Each shelter holds about 12 people.

You also havent considered youth protection guidelines by forcing scouts to sleep with strangers, and change in front of them. This is badically a show stopper for shelters imo.

Think.

two affiliated grous cannot stay at same shelter on any night per regulations

Shelters are also 7 mi apart. Asking anyone not a fit experienced hiker to do 15 thru some parts , or uphill, is not smart.

[mtntopper]

[QUOTE=NeedingGrace;2011943]Thanks for the suggestion. We would definitely only camp in predefined sites (Outdoor Code and Leave No Trace are BSA Principles).


Are following the NPS guidelines part of the BSA principles that your troop follows? Just asking.

[HooKooDooKu]

Charlies Bunion is 4 miles from New Found Gap (Ice water spring gs shelter is about 3.5).
Now I'm not sure where I came up with 60 miles. I was trying to go by this elevation profile (http://tnlandforms.us/at/atelev1.jpg) which shows your 42 mile estimate to be correct.

[MockingJay]

If you decide to do the park, call the Backcountry office and talk your plans over with them. They can be very helpful. On another note, if you have a reservation for the shelter and get caught in a tent, you're risking a fine.

[NeedingGrace]

I appreciate your concerns about not being able to get permits way in advance. We had to go in a lottery for the Boundary Waters this year as well, so we are familiar with the possibility of not getting what we hoped for. We have alternate plans (staying at a campsite and doing long day hikes like Mt. LeConte).

There are only two sections of the hike where the gap between shelters is an issue, either side of Derrick Knob and Mt. Collins. The rest of the shelters have another shelter within 4 miles. We can work with or around that (ie: one group comes out at Clingman's dome, camps at a campsite like Smokemont). I'm fully aware that asking someone who is not experienced to hike 15 miles is not smart, which is why we are already doing training runs and we will remove people from the trip if they can't cut it. This has already been explained to them.

I'm fully aware of YPT requirements. Two deep leadership covers the bases for sleep. If we can't get people to step out of the shelter so the boys can change, I'll be happy to set up a tent for 15 minutes to accommodate them (or even just hang/hold up a tarp). Although, honestly, most of the boys just change in their sleeping bags anyways. I'll be sure to discuss it with the Rangers when I call in a couple weeks and make sure that setting up a shelter temporarily wouldn't be an issue.


Your plans are speculative until you have reservations, which you have no guarantee of getting the # you want. You wont know till 30 days before.

30 days before you may need to change plans, or tell a kid he cant come.

There is no tenting for you. You have a reservation for each person, or you dont go. Each shelter holds about 12 people.

You also havent considered youth protection guidelines by forcing scouts to sleep with strangers, and change in front of them. This is badically a show stopper for shelters imo.

Think.

two affiliated grous cannot stay at same shelter on any night per regulations

Shelters are also 7 mi apart. Asking anyone not a fit experienced hiker to do 15 thru some parts , or uphill, is not smart.

[NeedingGrace]

Yeah, it's on my list to give the office a call. Good call on the fine issue...I've just read other people saying it would be kind of a jerk move to kick out a thru-hiker who got there first (although a group squatting in the shelter without permission is another story). I suppose that's something else to add to my list of things to discuss with the rangers. Thanks for the thought. :)


If you decide to do the park, call the Backcountry office and talk your plans over with them. They can be very helpful. On another note, if you have a reservation for the shelter and get caught in a tent, you're risking a fine.

[NeedingGrace]

Yep, we're required to follow any/all rules of wherever we stay (just like everyone else should).


[QUOTE=NeedingGrace;2011943]Thanks for the suggestion. We would definitely only camp in predefined sites (Outdoor Code and Leave No Trace are BSA Principles).


Are following the NPS guidelines part of the BSA principles that your troop follows? Just asking.

[slbirdnerd]

As a Scout leader, Backpacking merit badge counselor, and backpacker, I would definitely rethink the Smokys as a section for your 50-miler. There are many other sections the boys will enjoy more and the logistics would be much, much more doable.

Please read and adhere to the Backcountry regulations on the GSMNP website. The rules exist for a reason. Don't be "that" Boy Scout leader. Please. A Scout is Honest.

Wherever you go, The AT Guide is great and you could even photocopy the section pages for the boys so they can refer to it.

[TNhiker]

As a Scout leader, Backpacking merit badge counselor, and backpacker, I would definitely rethink the Smokys as a section for your 50-miler. There are many other sections the boys will enjoy more and the logistics would be much, much more doable.

Please read and adhere to the Backcountry regulations on the GSMNP website. The rules exist for a reason. Don't be "that" Boy Scout leader. Please. A Scout is Honest.

Wherever you go, The AT Guide is great and you could even photocopy the section pages for the boys so they can refer to it.





as an Eagle Scout, and one who has done alot of hiking in the Park----i agree with this post............


or if you want to hike in the Park---i would avoid the shelters and just do "regular" campsites----with tents and stuff like that......

also---i would reduce the size of your group..........

[NeedingGrace]

I really appreciate your input, can I ask why you think the Smokies is not as enjoyable? Because of the difficulty (I know there is a lot of elevation change)? Or more because of the issues with permits (as others have mentioned). I'm personally much more comfortable with doing the hike through an NPS park than one of the sections that aren't...

We will absolutely follow the rules. I'm not sure why that question keeps coming up...lol (I think you're like the 4th person). Maybe it's just common on the forums, or a way I said something. Sorry if I've given the wrong impression. I'm a huge supporter of the NPS...with the Smokies being my favorite.

TIA


As a Scout leader, Backpacking merit badge counselor, and backpacker, I would definitely rethink the Smokys as a section for your 50-miler. There are many other sections the boys will enjoy more and the logistics would be much, much more doable.

Please read and adhere to the Backcountry regulations on the GSMNP website. The rules exist for a reason. Don't be "that" Boy Scout leader. Please. A Scout is Honest.

Wherever you go, The AT Guide is great and you could even photocopy the section pages for the boys so they can refer to it.

[NeedingGrace]

Aside from the day when we arrive and leave, we will be operating as 2 groups. So, our groups will be 5-6 (I anticipate 1-2 people dropping out before we get to next year). We had the same experience this years in the Boundary Waters where we had a group of 5 and a group of 4 (max party size being 8, just like the Smokies) and it worked pretty well for us. Of our 12 anticipated going, 6 are adults and all the boys will be 15 and up....so, no young scouts are allowed.

Thanks!


as an Eagle Scout, and one who has done alot of hiking in the Park----i agree with this post............


or if you want to hike in the Park---i would avoid the shelters and just do "regular" campsites----with tents and stuff like that......

also---i would reduce the size of your group..........

[slbirdnerd]

I really appreciate your input, can I ask why you think the Smokies is not as enjoyable? Because of the difficulty (I know there is a lot of elevation change)? Or more because of the issues with permits (as others have mentioned). I'm personally much more comfortable with doing the hike through an NPS park than one of the sections that aren't...

We will absolutely follow the rules. I'm not sure why that question keeps coming up...lol (I think you're like the 4th person). Maybe it's just common on the forums, or a way I said something. Sorry if I've given the wrong impression. I'm a huge supporter of the NPS...with the Smokies being my favorite.

TIA

I think the concern is because at one point, you said you'd just tent if the shelter were full (or something like that). You're not a thru hiker, so in no way are you permitted to tent at a shelter. Period. You must have reservations in the shelter. I don't like it, but am sucking it up next week for my AT hike through the park anyway.

Yes, the park is beautiful. But it's also crowded, the reservations are a pain, the rules are a pain (group size, etc.), some of the bears can be a problem, there aren't many bail-out points if you've got a Scout with a problem (or an adult for that matter), the logistics and shuttles can be an issue, etc... Personally, I believe most other parts of the trail are just more conducive to taking a group of youth out.

Best option: loop hike. Another option: I know a troop who split in half, with each half starting on one end of their linear hike. They met in the middle for one bigger group night, swapped keys, and both groups continued on. Smaller group size, no need for shuttles. Your biggest problem there is probably enough experienced leadership/adults to make sure you are AT LEAST two deep on each crew.

I honestly don't think I'd split the boys based on skill level. Too many opportunities for team building and lessons to be learned by including boys of different ages and skill levels.

If you're not already, I highly suggest some sort of wilderness specific first aid training/certification. I took it through NOLS and it was fantastic.

[slbirdnerd]

Shoot, I forgot to add: I'd make the Hiking merit badge a pre-req for your trip.

[TNhiker]

We will absolutely follow the rules. I'm not sure why that question keeps coming up...lol (I think you're like the 4th person).



the question of following the rules comes up a bunch based on few things--------the number of people you will have in a party.............and cause its the Smokies.....

and there have been other threads where people were wanting info on how to get around the rules in the Park......

[NeedingGrace]

Ah, ok, thanks for that. I guess that was ignorance on my part. I've read everywhere (including on these forums) where people said that if they showed up and the shelter was full, they'd just pitch their tent. So, I was just quoting them...

You're second option is actually our leading option right now. We have a few that wanted to hike NB for the extra challenge of more uphill...

Me and another adult are WRFA certified through scouting (similar to NOLS, but probably a lot cheaper from what I've seen...lol).

And yes, that is a definitive requirement for the Hiking MB to go (adults and scouts have to complete the requirements at least 45 days prior to leaving...That's why I think we might lose a few (they choose not to give up a couple Saturdays to get those 10 and 20 milers in)...


I think the concern is because at one point, you said you'd just tent if the shelter were full (or something like that). You're not a thru hiker, so in no way are you permitted to tent at a shelter. Period. You must have reservations in the shelter. I don't like it, but am sucking it up next week for my AT hike through the park anyway.

Yes, the park is beautiful. But it's also crowded, the reservations are a pain, the rules are a pain (group size, etc.), some of the bears can be a problem, there aren't many bail-out points if you've got a Scout with a problem (or an adult for that matter), the logistics and shuttles can be an issue, etc... Personally, I believe most other parts of the trail are just more conducive to taking a group of youth out.

Best option: loop hike. Another option: I know a troop who split in half, with each half starting on one end of their linear hike. They met in the middle for one bigger group night, swapped keys, and both groups continued on. Smaller group size, no need for shuttles. Your biggest problem there is probably enough experienced leadership/adults to make sure you are AT LEAST two deep on each crew.

I honestly don't think I'd split the boys based on skill level. Too many opportunities for team building and lessons to be learned by including boys of different ages and skill levels.

If you're not already, I highly suggest some sort of wilderness specific first aid training/certification. I took it through NOLS and it was fantastic.

[NeedingGrace]

Ok, good to know. I definitely am NOT trying to circumvent any rules, really just looking for that extra edge on planning coming here. Really appreciate all the great responses!


the question of following the rules comes up a bunch based on few things--------the number of people you will have in a party.............and cause its the Smokies.....

and there have been other threads where people were wanting info on how to get around the rules in the Park......

[TNhiker]

Ah, ok, thanks for that. I guess that was ignorance on my part. I've read everywhere (including on these forums) where people said that if they showed up and the shelter was full, they'd just pitch their tent. So, I was just quoting them...




well..............thats the tricky part----for some circumstances one can do that....

however, in your situation----you can not..............

[HooKooDooKu]

Ah, ok, thanks for that. I guess that was ignorance on my part. I've read everywhere (including on these forums) where people said that if they showed up and the shelter was full, they'd just pitch their tent. So, I was just quoting them...
I believe you're referring to the Catch-22 situation where you have a reservation for a shelter, but you show up and the shelter is already full.

In theory, the only legal way for that to happen is an excessive number of thru hikers to have shown up that day, in which case the thru hiker is supposed to vacate the shelter and tent near by. But I've spent enough time in GSMNP and seen enough rules being broken that the more likely scenario is that other campers are there illegally (either because they don't know about the rules, choose to ignore the rules, or just plain something happens and someone is unable to maintain their itinerary and have little to no choice but to technically camp illegally).

In such a situation, I don't believe it's the place of the hiker with a reservation to enforce park rules, so there's not much a hiker can do to force anyone out of a shelter and claim their reserved spot. So what many hikers have said is that if they were faced with such a situation, they would tent illegally and take their chances trying to explain the situation to a park ranger rather than risk escalating the situation with a person who's already there illegally.

It sort of forces you to plan on being in the shelter, yet at the same time, hauling some sort of a back up plan should you be faced with a worst-case situation.

Perhaps this is one of the many reasons I've seen several references to the Smokies NOT being an ideal place for Scouting trips (with perhaps the main one being regulations on group size).


Not being a Scout myself, as I see it, the Smokies is a fine place for Scouts to hike... if they can adhere to the 8 person group limit.


Now I don't have much experience planning 50 mile hikes in the Smokies, but I've got years of experience planning one, two, and three night trips in the Smokies. So if you would like to explore additional options for your groups within the park, I'd be glad to help lend my knowledge and resources for trip planning within GSMNP.

[MuddyWaters]

Aside from the day when we arrive and leave, we will be operating as 2 groups. So, our groups will be 5-6 (I anticipate 1-2 people dropping out before we get to next year). We had the same experience this years in the Boundary Waters where we had a group of 5 and a group of 4 (max party size being 8, just like the Smokies) and it worked pretty well for us. Of our 12 anticipated going, 6 are adults and all the boys will be 15 and up....so, no young scouts are allowed.

Thanks!


Doesnt matter how you think you are "operating", the following is to keep people from trying to circumvent rules. Your groups can never stay at the same place. It still sounds to me like you are attempting to circumvent regulations by splitting your group. You must have two totally separate itineraries for this to be legit. NPS has these rules because large groups monopolize space and create disturbances for others.

3. Maximum party size is 8. Two parties affiliated with the same group may not stay in the same campsite or at the same shelter on the same night(s).

[mtntopper]

I think that you are being dishonest and trying to get around the rules. From what I have read others do too they are just not saying as plain as I.

[illabelle]

Ok, good to know. I definitely am NOT trying to circumvent any rules, really just looking for that extra edge on planning coming here. Really appreciate all the great responses!

Sounds to me like you're trying to do the right thing. If you can work out the logistics, go for it. The Smokies are a great place to hike. It's definitely on a list of places we plan to do more than once. Enjoy!

[Slo-go'en]

I get the feeling Needing Grace really wants to hike in the Smokies and this greatly influenced the boy's "vote" to go there. Therefore, no reasonable argument will change his (her?) mind.

[NeedingGrace]

I think that you are being dishonest and trying to get around the rules. From what I have read others do too they are just not saying as plain as I.


I believe you're referring to the Catch-22 situation where you have a reservation for a shelter, but you show up and the shelter is already full.

In theory, the only legal way for that to happen is an excessive number of thru hikers to have shown up that day, in which case the thru hiker is supposed to vacate the shelter and tent near by. But I've spent enough time in GSMNP and seen enough rules being broken that the more likely scenario is that other campers are there illegally (either because they don't know about the rules, choose to ignore the rules, or just plain something happens and someone is unable to maintain their itinerary and have little to no choice but to technically camp illegally).

In such a situation, I don't believe it's the place of the hiker with a reservation to enforce park rules, so there's not much a hiker can do to force anyone out of a shelter and claim their reserved spot. So what many hikers have said is that if they were faced with such a situation, they would tent illegally and take their chances trying to explain the situation to a park ranger rather than risk escalating the situation with a person who's already there illegally.

It sort of forces you to plan on being in the shelter, yet at the same time, hauling some sort of a back up plan should you be faced with a worst-case situation.

Perhaps this is one of the many reasons I've seen several references to the Smokies NOT being an ideal place for Scouting trips (with perhaps the main one being regulations on group size).


Not being a Scout myself, as I see it, the Smokies is a fine place for Scouts to hike... if they can adhere to the 8 person group limit.


Now I don't have much experience planning 50 mile hikes in the Smokies, but I've got years of experience planning one, two, and three night trips in the Smokies. So if you would like to explore additional options for your groups within the park, I'd be glad to help lend my knowledge and resources for trip planning within GSMNP.

I was, thanks for being better at explaining it. I'm going to give the Backcountry office a call next week and discuss this scenario with them. And, get their feelings on whether I should just look elswhere since we'd have, what amounts to 2 large groups down there at the same time.

[NeedingGrace]

I think that you are being dishonest and trying to get around the rules. From what I have read others do too they are just not saying as plain as I.


Doesnt matter how you think you are "operating", the following is to keep people from trying to circumvent rules. Your groups can never stay at the same place. It still sounds to me like you are attempting to circumvent regulations by splitting your group. You must have two totally separate itineraries for this to be legit. NPS has these rules because large groups monopolize space and create disturbances for others.

3. Maximum party size is 8. Two parties affiliated with the same group may not stay in the same campsite or at the same shelter on the same night(s).

The only time we would be staying at the same site would be on the first and last day there (which would be at a campground, not backcountry). This won't be a problem.

[NeedingGrace]

I think that you are being dishonest and trying to get around the rules. From what I have read others do too they are just not saying as plain as I.

Sorry I've given you that impression. Thanks for your input throughout the thread.

[NeedingGrace]

I think that you are being dishonest and trying to get around the rules. From what I have read others do too they are just not saying as plain as I.


Sounds to me like you're trying to do the right thing. If you can work out the logistics, go for it. The Smokies are a great place to hike. It's definitely on a list of places we plan to do more than once. Enjoy!

Thank you! :) My family has been coming down every year, but we've always done front-country with several shorter hikes (~5 miles) and one long hike (~10 miles) while we're there. Just looking forward to trying out backcountry in a park I love.

[NeedingGrace]

I think that you are being dishonest and trying to get around the rules. From what I have read others do too they are just not saying as plain as I.


I get the feeling Needing Grace really wants to hike in the Smokies and this greatly influenced the boy's "vote" to go there. Therefore, no reasonable argument will change his (her?) mind.

Yes, I want to hike it, but I don't believe I really influenced the vote. In fact, I flew out to Virginia so I could check out Shenandoah NP and bring back info on it. Shenandoah hangs around the highway for the entire length, which none of us really wanted, so it was voted down...We also explored the White Mountains in VT, which is deemed a great place to do the hike, but the group felt it was too far for us to make the drive and still get 50 miles in. It really was a process of elimination.

As for not being able to change my mind, I've actually taken several of the concerns posted here back to the group already, so the "reasonable arguments" I'm actually very much taking to heart.

Anyways, I greatly appreciate you taking time to post your thoughts/concerns on here. Every bit of info I can get helps.

[NeedingGrace]

LOL - Hilarious, I must've hit the multi-quote button...sorry for all the duplicate quotes. If I could figure out how to edit the posts, I would go back and change them...sorry about that.

[illabelle]

LOL - Hilarious, I must've hit the multi-quote button...sorry for all the duplicate quotes. If I could figure out how to edit the posts, I would go back and change them...sorry about that.

If you become a Donating Member, you will get the privilege of editing your posts. Comes in pretty handy now and then! :)

[Dogwood]

Great that you're taking the Scouts to GSMNP. GREAT that you're willing to jump through the logistical hoops to keep it legal. IMO too, you make it more complicated by strictly adhering to the AT on a 50 mile GSMNP hike with your logistical considerations.

What folks are referring to are the greater complications of hiking in GSMNP on top of what you are already dealing with(shuttles, two groups, group size, two groups hiking separated, pulling appropriate sensical permits, campsite restrictions only being able to stay at AT shelters, rules, legality, etc) because you have ONLY considered the notorious AT as the entire route. It certainly seems you are not only bent on GSMNP BUT ALSO ONLY THE AT. With your Shenandoah NP comment it was obvious as ALL hiking trails in Shenandoah NP most definitely DO NOT parallel a highway. It is the AT that parallels the highway through S NP. In short, by limiting yourself only to the AT for your entire hike in GSMNP you have greater complications!

Without getting into it too deep GSMNP is the most visited NP in the Nation. The AT is by far the most used route through GSMNP making competition for permits very high. Summer is one of the busy periods for NPs. Attempting to get your itinerary and logistics down while pulling appropriate permits can be complicated AND would be more complicated on even higher peak usage summer dates. The AT through GSMNP has added rules as well that affect everyone but even potentially more so when hiking in larger groups. With your group sizes, required pre hike prep, etc it makes sticking to the AT the entire 50 miles more problematic. Doable, with very good preparation, but none the less more complicated. As one also familiar with BWCAW regs it is IMHO less complicated to pull permits for that area as two groups under the group size limits than in GSMNP while strictly adhering to the AT.

With greater route consideration on the front end during pre hike prep it would logistically likely be easier if you didn't limit your two parties to the AT for the entire hike. Have you considered a route/routes that takes in some of the GSMNP AT highlights while taking in VERY WORTHY other sites/experiences in GSMNP? You don't just have to think in terms of linear pt to pt hikes either as far as GSMNP hikes! You COULD have two parties hiking loops that include some of the AT while staying within your 50 mile duration. Another potentially helpful way of viewing your hike is up front design your routes based FIRST on number of hiking days AND THEN tweaking daily mileage and campsite locations.

[George]

(believe me, I'd rather save the weight and not pack tents)..

right there is the crux of potential issues - planning to take decent size groups in the smokies without tents is "poor planning"

loop trails are the strong point of the smokies - overcrowded shelters the weak point - play to the strong point and plan a route that uses campsites instead of shelters, with no shuttles needed

the scouts may have picked a route, but you are the adult/ leader - so "lead"

[NeedingGrace]

Yes, we did limit ourselves as a primary to the AT. Mostly because it keeps within the spirit of doing 50 miles with packs. Yes, loops are an option, but not really keeping within the spirit of it all. And yes, I'm sure there are other 50 mile hikes not part of the AT (or, we could do some of the AT and some of the side trails if you're talking inside GSMNP), but the thing that got the boys (and adults) really interested in going was that it was the AT. I assume that's why most people hike it (or the PCT). There were some recommendations I got for other sections of the AT that might be better which I'm beginning to investigate, and I'll actually take your advice and look at at 3rd option of doing some of side trails as well. Thanks for your thoughts and input!



Great that you're taking the Scouts to GSMNP. GREAT that you're willing to jump through the logistical hoops to keep it legal. IMO too, you make it more complicated by strictly adhering to the AT on a 50 mile GSMNP hike with your logistical considerations.

What folks are referring to are the greater complications of hiking in GSMNP on top of what you are already dealing with(shuttles, two groups, group size, two groups hiking separated, pulling appropriate sensical permits, campsite restrictions only being able to stay at AT shelters, rules, legality, etc) because you have ONLY considered the notorious AT as the entire route. It certainly seems you are not only bent on GSMNP BUT ALSO ONLY THE AT. With your Shenandoah NP comment it was obvious as ALL hiking trails in Shenandoah NP most definitely DO NOT parallel a highway. It is the AT that parallels the highway through S NP. In short, by limiting yourself only to the AT for your entire hike in GSMNP you have greater complications!

Without getting into it too deep GSMNP is the most visited NP in the Nation. The AT is by far the most used route through GSMNP making competition for permits very high. Summer is one of the busy periods for NPs. Attempting to get your itinerary and logistics down while pulling appropriate permits can be complicated AND would be more complicated on even higher peak usage summer dates. The AT through GSMNP has added rules as well that affect everyone but even potentially more so when hiking in larger groups. With your group sizes, required pre hike prep, etc it makes sticking to the AT the entire 50 miles more problematic. Doable, with very good preparation, but none the less more complicated. As one also familiar with BWCAW regs it is IMHO less complicated to pull permits for that area as two groups under the group size limits than in GSMNP while strictly adhering to the AT.

With greater route consideration on the front end during pre hike prep it would logistically likely be easier if you didn't limit your two parties to the AT for the entire hike. Have you considered a route/routes that takes in some of the GSMNP AT highlights while taking in VERY WORTHY other sites/experiences in GSMNP? You don't just have to think in terms of linear pt to pt hikes either as far as GSMNP hikes! You COULD have two parties hiking loops that include some of the AT while staying within your 50 mile duration. Another potentially helpful way of viewing your hike is up front design your routes based FIRST on number of hiking days AND THEN tweaking daily mileage and campsite locations.

[NeedingGrace]

Oh yeah, we'll have tents for sure. I said I'd rather not have to pack them if I didn't need to, but that doesn't mean we won't. Like in my reply to Dogwood, I'll add some side trails with backcountry sites as a 3rd option. We're meeting again within the next 2 weeks, so we'll have some things to discuss.

Thanks for the input! It's greatly appreciated.


right there is the crux of potential issues - planning to take decent size groups in the smokies without tents is "poor planning"

loop trails are the strong point of the smokies - overcrowded shelters the weak point - play to the strong point and plan a route that uses campsites instead of shelters, with no shuttles needed

the scouts may have picked a route, but you are the adult/ leader - so "lead"

[NeedingGrace]

Hey everyone, thank you so much for all the advice. As I've mentioned, I'm taking a bunch of it to compile some different options and I'm sure we'll be able to use it to have a great experience wherever we end up hiking.