Inchworm's remains have been found in Maine.

[Tundra]

http://wkrn.com/2015/10/16/remains-of-missing-brentwood-hiker-found-in-maine/

[Rain Man]

At least there will be some closure.

[rafe]

Not much for details -- how she was found, or where. But they seem sure of the identity of the remains.

[4eyedbuzzard]

It's sad that she died, but I hope the press conference can shed some light as to whether or not authorities think foul play was involved. Some of the theories surrounding her disappearance have been pretty outrageous.

[rafe]

Didn't someone here on WB have a thread very recently about going to hike in Maine and looking for Inchworm? And in my mind, I was thinking, "yeah, right."

[tdoczi]

Didn't someone here on WB have a thread very recently about going to hike in Maine and looking for Inchworm? And in my mind, I was thinking, "yeah, right."
i'm honestly wondering if that isnt who found her. they were looking in the place where someone posting here says she was found (though the news report that i can see doesnt mention it).

[peakbagger]

Its also hunting season in Maine. Over the years hunters have found many missing remains.

I expect the news conference will fill in some details.

[Majortrauma]

Stunning. I'm very anxious to hear the rest of this story and thank God for at least partial closure.

[Majortrauma]

And this story will likely set a new record for number of replies surpassing any previous records set by threads about guns, blaze orange or NOBO thru hike start dates.

[Majortrauma]

I can confirm that she was found on SERE property Wednesday. NCIS is investigating. This is really going to send people into orbit.

[tdoczi]

I can confirm that she was found on SERE property Wednesday. NCIS is investigating. This is really going to send people into orbit.

wow, if that turns out to be true i can just see the never ending arguments on here now.

[Majortrauma]

It's a fact. Yea, this is going to be wildly interesting. Won't surprise me if the moderator has to shut this thread down.
wow, if that turns out to be true i can just see the never ending arguments on here now.

[terryg49]

OK....To enlighten those of us that are uninformed. What is SERE?

[Bluebearee]

Yeah and everyone else laughed this off as preposterous.

[Lone Wolf]

i called foul play from day 1

[Majortrauma]

OK....To enlighten those of us that are uninformed. What is SERE?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival,_Evasion,_Resistance_and_Escape
What was laughed off as preposterous was the theory that somehow students or staff at SERE school deliberately and maliciously cause her disappearance and subsequent death.
The fact that NCIS is investigating is meaningless in the context of the conspiracy theory. Crimes committed aboard Naval installations or those owned by the Department of the Navy are routinely assigned to be investigated by NCIS and not local law enforcement.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I can confirm that she was found on SERE property Wednesday. NCIS is investigating. This is really going to send people into orbit.The SERE property is over 12,000 acres and borders on the AT corridor. I highly doubt there is any other correlation other than that. People need to stop thinking real life is a TV conspiracy drama.

[Gambit McCrae]

What is the distance from her found location and where she was supposed to be at on the trail?

[chknfngrs]

Wow!! I always thought she left the trail for some reason or another. Can't believe she was found, please post as many links to more information of this discovery

[Bronk]

Will be interesting to see how far from the trail she was found and what the cause of death is and if it can be determined why she left the trail.

[tdoczi]

It's a fact. Yea, this is going to be wildly interesting. Won't surprise me if the moderator has to shut this thread down.

thread? given the reaction of some when the idea that MAYBE sere had something to do with it was first floated i'd say it might just crash the whole site.

[tdoczi]

The SERE property is over 12,000 acres and borders on the AT corridor. I highly doubt there is any other correlation other than that. People need to stop thinking real life is a TV conspiracy drama.

and we're off....

[Majortrauma]

She was found by a surveyor in a very remote area of the SERE property where the staff and students don't even go. Foul play, not animal seems to be the most likely cause unfortunately.

[chknfngrs]

The warden service appears to be holding a conference later today and hasn't released the information you are providing, majortrauma. What other info are you holding on to and why hold back now?

[slbirdnerd]

I'm relieved her family and friends will have some closure, and Inchworm a proper rest. Hopefully they can evade the drama.

[Majortrauma]

The warden service appears to be holding a conference later today and hasn't released the information you are providing, majortrauma. What other info are you holding on to and why hold back now?
I've been receiving my info incrementally. That's pretty much all I have for now.

[Bluebearee]

http://appalachiantrail.com/20151016/remains-of-geraldine-inchworm-largay-found/

"No foul play" ?!!

[Majortrauma]

http://appalachiantrail.com/20151016/remains-of-geraldine-inchworm-largay-found/

"No foul play" ?!!
I would like to believe she was not a victim of foul play but her location and her experience makes it seem unlikely she just wandered off the trail. My source is highly reliable.

[Traveler]

I would like to believe she was not a victim of foul play but her location and her experience makes it seem unlikely she just wandered off the trail. My source is highly reliable.

So your source is in direct conflict with the Maine Warden Service official statements? I would imagine the Service is pretty careful in making any kind of affirmations of that type unless evidence at the site was very strong.

[rocketsocks]

Hopefully the 1 o'clock press conference will shed some light and doesn't get bogged down with

"No comment, this is an on going investigation"

[WingedMonkey]

And this story will likely set a new record for number of replies surpassing any previous records set by threads about guns, blaze orange or NOBO thru hike start dates.

And so far 8 out of 30 replies are yours.

[imscotty]

They seem very confident that a positive ID will be forthcoming. I have to believe that is because her belonging were found with the skeletal remains. I hope that this was a natural death, and not caused by foul play. I always felt that there were things in this disappearance that did not add up.

Does anyone know if the SERE property was part of the Warden's Service search area? Or was the search of this property left to the Navy/Marines? Is this within the areas the Warden Service suspected she went off trail? When I get home from work I will have to break out my maps to see if this makes sense.

[rocketsocks]

Strange how in one breath I hope it's her, and in another if it weren't there's still hope....though, in my heart I already know the outcome.

[Majortrauma]

When we see where Inchworm was actually found in a remote area of SERE school and compare that to where the AT actually is I think we'll see that she was very far off the trail.
My point is that if my info is correct that she was found as far off the trail as I'm led to believe and we know she was very experienced...ochams razor applies.

[tdoczi]

When we see where Inchworm was actually found in a remote area of SERE school and compare that to where the AT actually is I think we'll see that she was very far off the trail.
My point is that if my info is correct that she was found as far off the trail as I'm led to believe and we know she was very experienced...ochams razor applies.

my guess, based on what you're hinting at, is she was found on the other side of one of the road's that crosses the facility, where a search had not been conducted because reason would dictate that a lost hiker wouldnt cross a road and then wander back into the woods.

ocham's razor indeed.

[Traveler]

When we see where Inchworm was actually found in a remote area of SERE school and compare that to where the AT actually is I think we'll see that she was very far off the trail.
My point is that if my info is correct that she was found as far off the trail as I'm led to believe and we know she was very experienced...ochams razor applies.

Occam's Razor states the simplest answer tends to be most correct. In this instance that would lean towards leaving the trail and becoming disorientated.

[tdoczi]

Occam's Razor states the simplest answer tends to be most correct. In this instance that would lean towards leaving the trail and becoming disorientated.

not if it involves wandering for 20 miles off trail through the ME woods or something similar it doesnt. in that case the simplest answer is someone put her body there.

[Water Rat]

Does anyone know if the press conference can be viewed online?

[Majortrauma]

The SERE property was searched extensively by SERE staff and students. They are not amateurs at that kind of thing AND they had a very strong interest in finding her not only because it was the right thing to do but also because Navy did not have any desire to have people speculating that someone at SERE school had anything to do with her disappearance. Not all 12,0000 acres were searched obviously but the areas where Inchworm would most likely be if she became disoriented or lost were searched quite well. Not a trace of her was found in those "likely"' areas because she was not there. She was found in an area so remote that it is highly unlikely she got there because was "lost."

[Traveler]

not if it involves wandering for 20 miles off trail through the ME woods or something similar it doesnt. in that case the simplest answer is someone put her body there.

That would be far more complex, just involving two people make it far more so. Never mind the physical aspects of the crime this would require. From the Occum point of view, disorientation is the simplest, and statistically lost hikers are the overwhelming cause of back country SAR call outs.

Of course we will know more once the autopsy is performed, however the initial comments by the Warden Service suggests they do not suspect foul play. For now I am inclined to believe them as they have specific information on the site and how it was found, and its condition.

[4eyedbuzzard]

The SERE property was searched extensively by SERE staff and students. They are not amateurs at that kind of thing AND they had a very strong interest in finding her not only because it was the right thing to do but also because Navy did not have any desire to have people speculating that someone at SERE school had anything to do with her disappearance. Not all 12,0000 acres were searched obviously but the areas where Inchworm would most likely be if she became disoriented or lost were searched quite well. Not a trace of her was found in those "likely"' areas because she was not there. She was found in an area so remote that it is highly unlikely she got there because was "lost."Lost things (and people) are ALWAYS found in the LAST place they are looked for. If they were in the most likely, easy to find, places - they wouldn't be "lost" for very long. That's kind of how the whole "lost" thing works.

[Redrowen]

Even the most experienced navigators can get disoriented in the woods when not paying attention, it doesn't take much. To make matters worse, some people will decided to take what they think is a short cut to get back on track and make matters worse. Inchworm being found away from the AT shouldn't be much of a surprise if foul play is ruled out.

[Odd Man Out]

My first thought was that is good thing for the family, despite the bad new that it brings.

My second thought was that finally this will end the endless speculation regarding this incident.

I guess I was wrong on at least one count.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Does anyone know if the press conference can be viewed online?The press conference, scheduled for 1pm EST, should be able to be viewed here when it starts http://www.wgme.com/live/events/index.shtml#.ViEnWSsXd2B

[Traveler]

The press conference, scheduled for 1pm EST, should be able to be viewed here when it starts http://www.wgme.com/live/events/index.shtml#.ViEnWSsXd2B

Thanks 4eyed, I think I will take a few minutes to watch that and see what they have.

[tdoczi]

That would be far more complex, just involving two people make it far more so. Never mind the physical aspects of the crime this would require. From the Occum point of view, disorientation is the simplest, and statistically lost hikers are the overwhelming cause of back country SAR call outs.


fro sake of argument, lets say a hiker who was last seen hiking in maine is found in, i dunno, alabama, still with all his/her hiking gear. are you saying occum's razor would dictate that the his hiker got lost and wandered all the way to alabama? really?

[4eyedbuzzard]

My first thought was that is good thing for the family, despite the bad new that it brings.

My second thought was that finally this will end the endless speculation regarding this incident.

I guess I was wrong on at least one count.Uh, yep.
fro sake of argument, lets say a hiker who was last seen hiking in maine is found in, i dunno, alabama, still with all his/her hiking gear. are you saying occum's razor would dictate that the his hiker got lost and wandered all the way to alabama? really?In that case, I'm going with the most reasonable explanation which is always

32325

[Traveler]

fro sake of argument, lets say a hiker who was last seen hiking in maine is found in, i dunno, alabama, still with all his/her hiking gear. are you saying occum's razor would dictate that the his hiker got lost and wandered all the way to alabama? really?

If one is going by Occams Razor, the simplest answer tends to be most correct.

[Water Rat]

The press conference, scheduled for 1pm EST, should be able to be viewed here when it starts http://www.wgme.com/live/events/index.shtml#.ViEnWSsXd2B

Thank you!

[Traveler]

Rats, the site is in a continual buffer, I can see the still image of the press conference being set up, but the feed is not coming in.

[Rocket Jones]

link is working now.

[Redrowen]

Press Conference Notes:
- Persons discovering the remains was doing an environmental survey for the Navy.
- Remains were found 3000 feet off the trail. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong)
- Belongings found with the remains match with what she was carrying.
- No foul play seems to be involved at this time.
- Medical Examiner report pending.

[Wolverine]

Live Twitter updates being provided here:

https://twitter.com/MarissaWGME
https://twitter.com/Kathryn_Miles

[Wolverine]

Map here showing where she was found:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRc_-3jXAAExhcA.jpg:large

[GoldenBear]

> not if it involves wandering for 20 miles off trail through the ME woods

Her body wasn't found 20 miles off The Trail.
It was found 3000 feet from The Trail.
A not unreasonable distance for someone disoriented, or even for someone who's had a mini-stroke.

[Cfullerton]

What 'holes' were they talking about? What type of terrain is around that area?

[Traveler]

What 'holes' were they talking about? What type of terrain is around that area?

A lot of granite jumbles from large boulders and slabs for the most part. Slabs and boulders piled against or on top of each other can create holes that are eventually covered over with branches and tree detritus that covers the crevasse or holes. That covering looks just like forest floor and will give way when you step on it, much like a snow bridge over a crevasse.

[4eyedbuzzard]

What 'holes' were they talking about? What type of terrain is around that area?Holes from decayed vegetative matter, erosion between rocks and/or roots, boulder falls, then get covered with twigs, small branches, and leaves etc., much the same way crevasses get covered with snow bridges. General terrain? It's the deep Maine woods. It's mountainous forest with very few road crossings. Some of the most remote terrain east of the Mississippi.

[T.S.Kobzol]

wow. Not that far off the trail by my standard when it comes to a missing person search.

[donthaveoneyet]

Looks very close to Reddington Pond, or am I reading it wrong?

[Traveler]

Holes from decayed vegetative matter, erosion between rocks and/or roots, then get covered with twigs, small branches, and leaves etc., much the same way crevasses get covered with snow bridges. General terrain? It's the deep Maine woods. It's mountainous forest with very few road crossings. Some of the most remote terrain east of the Mississippi.

Indeed true, I would say perhaps the most dangerous terrain in the eastern US overall.

[Traveler]

Looks very close to Reddington Pond, or am I reading it wrong?

I think the Wardens were saying the remains were found about 100 to 300 yards from Reddington Pond, but I'm not sure. I could hear the answers, but for some reason they didn't put a mic to pick up people asking the questions.

[MuddyWaters]

an experienced backpacker simply off trail with shelter and gear can live for long time. With phone?

More to it. She didnt just get lost. No matter what wardens say.

[Redrowen]

I think the Wardens were saying the remains were found about 100 to 300 yards from Reddington Pond, but I'm not sure. I could hear the answers, but for some reason they didn't put a mic to pick up people asking the questions.

I thought he said the remains were found 3000' feet from the AT then later he started talking about 100 yards and could't understand what he was talking about.

[Dan Roper]

Huh? There could be any number of reasons she became lost or disoriented. A sudden medical condition like a stroke would be a logical explanation. Certainly far more likely than foul play.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I thought he said the remains were found 3000' feet from the AT then later he started talking about 100 yards and could't understand what he was talking about.100 yards past the border of the SERE property, which was why NCIS was brought in, as the remains were technically on the US Navy property.

[Tundra]

The 100 yards was in reference to where her remains were found on the SERE property. She was 100 yards into their property.

[Redrowen]

The 100 yards was in reference to where her remains were found on the SERE property. She was 100 yards into their property.

Thanks, I couldn't make out what he was saying, I knew the remains were found on government property.

[donthaveoneyet]

I thought he said the remains were found 3000' feet from the AT then later he started talking about 100 yards and could't understand what he was talking about.

At their closest points, Redington Pond is about 2,000 feet from the AT. The other end of the pond would be about 3,000 feet. So I guess 100 yards from the pond could be very close to the trail, or could be in another direction from the pond.... At least that's my read of it, just from the maps.

[Traveler]

an experienced backpacker simply off trail with shelter and gear can live for long time. With phone?

More to it. She didnt just get lost. No matter what wardens say.

The Wardens aren't speculating how she ended up where she did. There is no evidence of foul play at this point apparently the ME will be able to answer that. But a lot of things can cause disorientation. Dehydration from a stomach bug or other illnesses, medication issues, small stroke, fell or walked into a branch and was dazed, heart problem, left the trail to relieve herself and took a wrong turn, all kinds of things could happen that could lead to that. We may never know what happened if the ME report comes back as natural causes.

[4eyedbuzzard]

an experienced backpacker simply off trail with shelter and gear can live for long time. With phone?

More to it. She didnt just get lost. No matter what wardens say.Like many of us, she wasn't exactly a young pup. She was what, 66 years old? People, even experienced ones, and even healthy ones, sometimes just have heart attacks, strokes, etc, and just up and die. Experienced hikers wander off trail and get lost. I don't know the exact area, but cell phone coverage is typically really bad in northern New England. A medical condition could have led to disorientation. People are often asymptomatic and have undiagnosed health problems. In the civilized world, people who would otherwise die get prompt medical attention and often live. But death happens every day regardless of location. You're alive, you're alive, you're alive - you're dead. We are all just one heartbeat away. The greatest cause of death is birth.

[TNhiker]

Huh? There could be any number of reasons she became lost or disoriented. A sudden medical condition like a stroke would be a logical explanation. Certainly far more likely than foul play.




that is correct.....

in fact, earlier this month a lady got lost in the shining rock wilderness in NC.......

she was literally feet off the trail.....

but, she was injured and could not get back up to trail......

apparently she leaned against a tree, the tree fell, and she fell with it injuring herself to the point of not being able to get up..........

[bamboo bob]

These silly conspiracy theorists are an embarrassment.

[chknfngrs]

Starfly so your very recent search found bones that were not related to this discovery?

[MuddyWaters]

I believe a health event could occur.

what I don't believe is a healthy person walked 3000 feet from the trail sat down and said I'm going to die here while people were actively looking for her

it's a given that there's more to the story

[Speakeasy TN]

Finally! 3500 ft from the pond and 3000 off trail. 100 yds in that kind of terrain is the other end of the world. Rest easy Inchworm!

[vamelungeon]

I'm so glad they found her, for her family's peace of mind. I can't imagine going through this with someone I love. As far as the cause, they may never figure it out but anyone can become disoriented for any number of reasons. Dehydration, heart problems, strokes, accidental injuries and so on. Let's see what the investigation reveals.

[Majortrauma]

I believe a health event could occur.

what I don't believe is a healthy person walked 3000 feet from the trail sat down and said I'm going to die here while people were actively looking for her

it's a given that there's more to the story
I agree with you Muddywaters.

[Traveler]

I believe a health event could occur.

what I don't believe is a healthy person walked 3000 feet from the trail sat down and said I'm going to die here while people were actively looking for her

it's a given that there's more to the story

Wardens are only saying thats where she was found along with what appeared to be her possessions. They need a little time to look through the things they found, possibly there was a journal entry that provides a clue or two. ME has the final word. Without evidence of foul play, it leaves the more simple possibilities in play. We may never know.

[tdoczi]

> not if it involves wandering for 20 miles off trail through the ME woods

Her body wasn't found 20 miles off The Trail.
It was found 3000 feet from The Trail.
A not unreasonable distance for someone disoriented, or even for someone who's had a mini-stroke.


i agree. the problem with YOUR statement is you ignore that the fact that i was willingly and knowingly just creating what ifs at a time in which we hadnt yet gotten all the facts. i wasnt ignoring things already known. not even close.

[Brewerbob]

http://appalachiantrail.com/20151016/remains-of-geraldine-inchworm-largay-found/

"No foul play" ?!!

I sent a follow-up e-mail to Corporal MacDonald asking if foul play was suspected. He replied, “Not suspected, thank you.”

That is neither confirmation nor denial. You don't grammar much do you? Me giving you that answer can be taken two ways. I'm standing next to a body full of bullet holes, on a deserted island, smoking gun in hand, and foul is not SUSPECTED. Foul play is KNOWN. Or, as you're guessing, it is not suspected. Either way, the quote isn't a lie.

Now, what's with all the conspiracy talk? I'm not much into conspiracies. Some out I missed out on them all.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I'm so glad they found her, for her family's peace of mind. I can't imagine going through this with someone I love. As far as the cause, they may never figure it out but anyone can become disoriented for any number of reasons. Dehydration, heart problems, strokes, accidental injuries and so on. Let's see what the investigation reveals.The remains were called "skeletal". Given no soft tissue to analyze, I'd agree with you that the actual cause of death will likely not be determined unless evidence of a traumatic injury (broken bones leading to immobilization and exposure, or head or spinal injury) is present. [EDIT: Or skeletal remains show evidence of an underlying disease.] I anticipate there will be likely one of those "most probable cause" conclusions. RIP Inchworm.

[Brewerbob]

Lost things (and people) are ALWAYS found in the LAST place they are looked for. If they were in the most likely, easy to find, places - they wouldn't be "lost" for very long. That's kind of how the whole "lost" thing works.

They are always found in the last place looked BECAUSE YOU DON'T CONTINUE TO LOOK FOR THEM ONCE THEY ARE FOUND!!!

They are NOT always found in the least likely, most difficult, etc.

[4eyedbuzzard]

They are always found in the last place looked BECAUSE YOU DON'T CONTINUE TO LOOK FOR THEM ONCE THEY ARE FOUND!!!

They are NOT always found in the least likely, most difficult, etc.Thanks for explaining that to me.

[Brewerbob]

Press Conference Notes:
- Persons discovering the remains was doing an environmental survey for the Navy.
- Remains were found 3000 feet off the trail. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong)
- Belongings found with the remains match with what she was carrying.
- No foul play seems to be involved at this time.
- Medical Examiner report pending.3,000 ft ain't very far.

[Brewerbob]

Map here showing where she was found:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRc_-3jXAAExhcA.jpg:large

All downhill from the looks of it. Possibly a river?

[imscotty]

what I don't believe is a healthy person walked 3000 feet from the trail sat down and said I'm going to die here while people were actively looking for her

it's a given that there's more to the story

Clearly true MuddyWaters. But right now I am thinking that this most likely involves a medical problem that caused Geraldine to become disorientated and/or impair her judgement. It will be interesting to see what the medical examiner determines.

No mention was made of notes, or messages. It does not sound like there is evidence she camped there for some time in survival mode. As you pointed out, an equipped hiker should have been able to last for some time. This would seem indicate impaired judgement and perhaps a rapidly escalating medical situation. Less likely, but still possible, is foul play.

I would very much like to know the condition of her equipment. Was her backpack on or off? The tent set up? Sleeping bag around her? This would tell us something.

I hope her family and friends can forgive all this speculation and discussion. It is human nature to try to make sense out of something like this.

[tdoczi]

3,000 ft ain't very far.

further from the trail than ive ever been (without being on a side trail) or would ever care to go in woods and terrain like that.

[tdoczi]

All downhill from the looks of it. Possibly a river?

how close to the "road" thats there is that?

[Tipi Walter]

Has this been posted yet on this thread??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fn0o3uO9Bg

[Brewerbob]

The remains were called "skeletal". Given no soft tissue to analyze, I'd agree with you that the actual cause of death will likely not be determined unless evidence of a traumatic injury (broken bones leading to immobilization and exposure, or head or spinal injury) is present. I anticipate there will be likely one of those "most probable cause" conclusions. RIP Inchworm.

Your foul play guys will also be limited. Unless there is a bullet/knife nick on a bone... strangle someone and the skeleton wouldn't show it.

[Traveler]

further from the trail than ive ever been (without being on a side trail) or would ever care to go in woods and terrain like that.

There seems to be some disagreement in that footage from the press conference and the written statement by the MWS. The printed statement says 3,000 feet from the eastern shore of Redington Pond, which would put the discovery site about 100 or so yards from the AT. One of the two measurements is accurate, but either the briefer or the editor of the statement misspoke.

[Brewerbob]

further from the trail than ive ever been (without being on a side trail) or would ever care to go in woods and terrain like that.

I've not done a thru hike but I'm lost. The trail was right there a minute ago. Damn it. Well, downhill is easier than uphill. And if I've got to be lost, I'm going to be lost near water. Water is downhill not uphill. That's where I'm going.

All of that is said without knowing what the guide has to say about this particular section of the trail.

The map pic was kind of sketchy. Anyone know if there was a road crossing and/or stream there? There was what looked like a clear path in the trees.

[tdoczi]

There seems to be some disagreement in that footage from the press conference and the written statement by the MWS. The printed statement says 3,000 feet from the eastern shore of Redington Pond, which would put the discovery site about 100 or so yards from the AT. One of the two measurements is accurate, but either the briefer or the editor of the statement misspoke.

if 100 yards from the AT in pretty much the precise stretch where one would have expected to find her and all those searches didnt turn her up then the idea of going in the woods and looking for a missing person is truly futile. its a wonder anyone is ever found.

[Water Rat]

Your foul play guys will also be limited. Unless there is a bullet/knife nick on a bone... strangle someone and the skeleton wouldn't show it.

True. However, any missing credit cards/cash, expensive gear might also tell a piece of the story. I am highly doubtful this will be the case. Just simply listing other signs of foul play.

The Maine Wardens (among others) have taken this case very personally, and remain taking this case personally... They have put a lot of effort into locating Gerry and I am highly doubtful they would just "dismiss" anything. If there is even a shred of evidence to say that foul play occurred, I am sure that will be followed.

[Brewerbob]

Has this been posted yet on this thread??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fn0o3uO9Bg

Thx Walter.

[tdoczi]

I've not done a thru hike but I'm lost. The trail was right there a minute ago. Damn it. Well, downhill is easier than uphill. And if I've got to be lost, I'm going to be lost near water. Water is downhill not uphill. That's where I'm going.

All of that is said without knowing what the guide has to say about this particular section of the trail.

The map pic was kind of sketchy. Anyone know if there was a road crossing and/or stream there? There was what looked like a clear path in the trees.
oh im not saying at all that is unreasonable to think she wandered that far, but it is a long ways.

there is a road there, of sorts, along oberton stream. i wonder if she were closer to the road than to the AT.

[Brewerbob]

True. However, any missing credit cards/cash, expensive gear might also tell a piece of the story. I am highly doubtful this will be the case. Just simply listing other signs of foul play.
I doubt that'll be the case at all. If there was foul play, I'm thinking more like the random nutjob not robbery. Who the hell is going to rob a thru hiker? You've got maybe $50 on you and you're probably in better shape than me.

[Water Rat]

I doubt that'll be the case at all. If there was foul play, I'm thinking more like the random nutjob not robbery. Who the hell is going to rob a thru hiker? You've got maybe $50 on you and you're probably in better shape than me.

She wasn't the "normal" thru-hiker, but I do get your point. I was simply saying those would be possible signs to look for.

[Brewerbob]

i wonder if she were closer to the road than to the AT.From the attached, I'd say equal distance from the trail as the lake/stream/water. Any clue with the little box line missing trees is?

Following the ravine she was in downhill to the lake makes sense if lost. Makes sense with a broken leg/twisted ankle. I can't get back up that damn hill. Down, I can scoot on my butt. The lake makes it easier for someone to spot me from the air too.

She may have been thinking cleanly by this point if she was first confused and lost.

[Starchild]

By happy coincidence last weekend I met the 2 last people who are know to have saw Inchworm alive. I just can't recall their trail names but I talked to them a bit at Anthony's Nose area (NY) section of the AT and they relayed that they met her on trail and they have been interviewed several times since Inchworm went missing.

The point they happened to make was she was not a experienced woods person, just a experienced AT hiker and they indicated that her image that she was highly experienced in being in such a situation was not simply not actuate.

Now I don't know if this was true, or if they really were the ones that saw her alive, perhaps some Navy Seal Opps from that base pretending to be female hiker to influence the opinion that she was not experienced. All I can do is relay what they claimed, which is very odd considering she was found right after.

[Brewerbob]

She wasn't the "normal" thru-hiker, but I do get your point. I was simply saying those would be possible signs to look for.

You'd be remiss in not looking for them. All part of any investigation.

Why wasn't she the normal thru hiker? A day hiking might be sporting a fancy Rolex but do people even yuppie histper wanna-bes go wandering into the woods with lots of valuables? I never carry cash and I don't wear jewelry in the "real" world so I wouldn't know.

[donthaveoneyet]

how close to the "road" thats there is that?

I was wondering that myself, it looks like pretty close.

[4eyedbuzzard]

if 100 yards from the AT in pretty much the precise stretch where one would have expected to find her and all those searches didnt turn her up then the idea of going in the woods and looking for a missing person is truly futile. its a wonder anyone is ever found.I wouldn't call searching futile, but often people who have never been off trail or done any wilderness travel have unrealistic expectations about the ease of finding people who are lost, especially if they are non-responsive.

The press conference statement by the Maine Warden, which I listened to, stated she was found approximately 3000 feet from the trail, and approximately 100 yards over the border of, and on the SERE property.

It is very difficult to locate lost people in any forest, and even tougher in places with challenging terrain like the mountainous forests of New England. You could search the woods for years, and honestly walk within few feet of a body, and not necessarily discover it. It took three years to find an entire airplane that crashed in 1996 on approach into Lebanon airport in NH, and even then the discovery was by chance. http://thedartmouth.com/1999/11/15/learjet-found-after-three-years/

[Trillium]

Thx Walter.
Second.

Appreciate the link.

[Bluebearee]

I thought he said the remains were found 3000' feet from the AT then later he started talking about 100 yards and could't understand what he was talking about.

Yes, 3000' from the AT, and 100 yards inside the SERE property line, east of Redington (one 'd' please) Pond. I was taking notes myself during the feed.

[tdoczi]

I wouldn't call searching futile, but often people who have never been off trail or done any wilderness travel have unrealistic expectations about the ease of finding people who are lost, especially if they are non-responsive.

The press conference statement by the Maine Warden, which I listened to, stated she was found approximately 3000 feet from the trail, and approximately 100 yards over the border of, and on the SERE property.

It is very difficult to locate lost people in any forest, and even tougher in places with challenging terrain like the mountainous forests of New England. You could search the woods for years, and honestly walk within few feet of a body, and not necessarily discover it. It took three years to find an entire airplane that crashed in 1996 on approach into Lebanon airport in NH, and even then the discovery was by chance. http://thedartmouth.com/1999/11/15/learjet-found-after-three-years/

if it was 3000 feet from trail it seems more reasonable to have not found her sooner. i dont know, i sense a lot of confusion about the distance from the trail here and am not in the mood to try and draw my own conclusion, which is why i said "if 100 yards from the trail..."

[Water Rat]

You'd be remiss in not looking for them. All part of any investigation.

Why wasn't she the normal thru hiker? A day hiking might be sporting a fancy Rolex but do people even yuppie histper wanna-bes go wandering into the woods with lots of valuables? I never carry cash and I don't wear jewelry in the "real" world so I wouldn't know.

She wasn't a normal thru-hiker because she was meeting up with her husband every couple of days after her hiking partner left the trail. That is all I meant by that - Not too many thru-hikers have someone meeting them every few days.

She also does not fit the average age group and may have carried a bit more emergency money on her than the average hiker - In case something her husband was unable to meet up with her. This is all speculation. I was simply adding that in addition to looking for physical signs on the person, there are other things to look for. I never mentioned jewelry. Most women backpackers don't wear a lot of jewelry and she didn't strike me as someone who would be any different on the trail.

[Brewerbob]

I wouldn't call searching futile, but often people who have never been off trail or done any wilderness travel have unrealistic expectations about the ease of finding people who are lost, especially if they are non-responsive.That's exactly what I was thinking. It's unpossible to find you if you are dead and/or hiding. If you're kicking and presumably screaming, it's a whole lot easier.




It is very difficult to locate lost people in any forest, and even tougher in places with challenging terrain like the mountainous forests of New England. You could search the woods for years, and honestly walk within few feet of a body, and not necessarily discover it. It took three years to find an entire airplane that crashed in 1996 on approach into Lebanon airport in NH, and even then the discovery was by chance. http://thedartmouth.com/1999/11/15/learjet-found-after-three-years/This one I need to read. How the hell do you lose an airplane. They are supposed to follow flight plans and have radar signatures.

[T.S.Kobzol]

Note to self: if my wife ever gets lost, pack my camping gear and keep combing wider corridor than 100 yards off the trail. Keep camping out every weekend and looking.


Maybe I'm naive (and I do know what these woods are like) but I expected all these searches to slowly expand the perimeter over time to go out to 1 - 2 miles off the trail.

[donthaveoneyet]

.... How the hell do you lose an airplane.


Apparently it's a lot easier than most people thought...

[Brewerbob]

She wasn't a normal thru-hiker because she was meeting up with her husband every couple of days after her hiking partner left the trail. That is all I meant by that - Not too many thru-hikers have someone meeting them every few days.

She also does not fit the average age group and may have carried a bit more emergency money on her than the average hiker - In case something her husband was unable to meet up with her. This is all speculation. I was simply adding that in addition to looking for physical signs on the person, there are other things to look for. I never mentioned jewelry. Most women backpackers don't wear a lot of jewelry and she didn't strike me as someone who would be any different on the trail.

Ah, ok. Didn't mean any offense. I had forgotten the meeting the husband bit. It's been awhile since I read the articles. Most recently than most people probably but I make up for that with a ****tier memory than most.

[wnderer]

32328
The map of her final location doesn't match the AT routed in Google maps. Did they reroute that part of the trail?

[Brewerbob]

Note to self: if my wife ever gets lost, pack my camping gear and keep combing wider corridor than 100 yards off the trail. Keep camping out every weekend and looking.I'm going to do the complete opposite and perhaps limit the search area to 100 inches. But then my wife is soon to be the ex-wife so if you find her, she's all yours. I'm not taking her back.



Maybe I'm naive (and I do know what these woods are like) but I expected all these searches to slowly expand the perimeter over time to go out to 1 - 2 miles off the trail.Resources and budget. If she hasn't turned up in a month, she's most likely dead. If she's not dead, she's living in Mexico and doesn't want to come back. So why am I (Search and Rescue) going to keep looking for her? You (the family) may and probably will keep looking and should do just what you said. But by yourself, you're going to have to hike that same ten mile (whatever the distance is between last confirmed locations) a thousand times over TIMES TWO!! You don't know what side of the trail she's on.

[Brewerbob]

Apparently it's a lot easier than most people thought...Over the ocean is one thing tho a GPS tracker costs how much?

[Bluebearee]

I haven't seen this grid map posted here yet. It's far more useful than the green one. She was not near Orbeton Stream - I'm not home, but I'd like to overlay with my AT map's elevations (she's at 2050') where Barnjum Rd is. That's the way I went in two years ago and MASAR did too just recently according to photos. I'm sorry but you wouldn't be that far off trail for any reason on your own accord. And yes the reason of death for someone with gear and food can only be two. Medical or foul.

32329

[Brewerbob]

32328
The map of her final location doesn't match the AT routed in Google maps. Did they reroute that part of the trail?
You'd need to compare 2011 to 2011. Google I wouldn't trust so much.

[MaineWriter]

Full disclosure: I wrote it.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/10/16/remains-appalachian-trail-hiker-found-maine/bX4Fna5A2AGkUeQjCUKbIJ/story.html

[imscotty]

Here is a link to the Google Satellite image of the area...

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.978602,-70.4031082,1192m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e4

It would appear she must have gone off trail after she crossed Orbeton Stream and after 'Railroad Road'

[Brewerbob]

I haven't seen this grid map posted here yet. It's far more useful than the green one. She was not near Orbeton Stream - I'm not home, but I'd like to overlay with my AT map's elevations (she's at 2050') where Barnjum Rd is. That's the way I went in two years ago and MASAR did too just recently according to photos. I'm sorry but you wouldn't be that far off trail for any reason on your own accord. And yes the reason of death for someone with gear and food can only be two. Medical or foul.

32329The interviewed dude had that up but couldn't see it in any detail. I thought she was downhill from the trail. That shows her "sideways", maybe 2 gradients down from the closest point of the trail. That's assumes she left the trail at the nearest point.

I still wouldn't rule out simply lost and going the wrong direction (which is quite possible if Starchild's run-in is correct). That of course doesn't kill you tho.

[imscotty]

Bluebearee, thanks for the search map. If this map shows the searches completed by the Maine Warden Service, then it would seem to indicate that they did search on SERE property.

[Brewerbob]

However, Adam said, the area where her body was found was eventually searched by three different canine teams.

Someone needs to look into getting a refund on their search dogs.

[Brewerbob]

Bluebearee, thanks for the search map. If this map shows the searches completed by the Maine Warden Service, then it would seem to indicate that they did search on SERE property.

The different colors represent the different search teams and who "owned" it.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Someone needs to look into getting a refund on their search dogs.If I recall correctly, during the time she went missing there was some severe rain, which would make it more difficult for the dogs to pick up the scent. In hindsight, perhaps if she had had a Spot or similar device and activated it, she probably would have had a much better chance of being found sooner. We don't know cause of death yet, and may never, so the ultimate outcome may not have been any different. Not promoting Spot or PLB's here, just thinking out loud.

[MuddyWaters]

Occams razor

3000 ft is too far for someone that knows they're off the trail and expects to be missed and searched for rapidly

3000 ft is too close for someone that wanders for more than maybe 30 to 45 minutes

it had to be a disorienting medical condition or foul play

[Brewerbob]

Occams razor

3000 ft is too far for someone that knows they're off the trail and expects to be missed and searched for rapidly

3000 ft is too close for someone that wanders for more than maybe 30 to 45 minutes

it had to be a disorienting medical condition or foul play
I dunno if I buy that. There are lots of people found miles from where they should be. For the first 30-45 minutes I personally am still trying to find my way back to whatever it was I lost. Somewhere after about an hour of presumably wandering in close to circles I may only be 1/2 a mile straight line from where I am supposed to be. Foolish maybe but thus far it's worked for me as I'm still kicking and breathing. Note: I've only been "seriously" lost once. Even then I knew I'd cross a major road by simply walking east which is exactly what I did.

[rafe]

"Simply walking east" may not be that simple in dense woods, particularly on a cloudy day.

[Rolex]

You'd be remiss in not looking for them. All part of any investigation.

Why wasn't she the normal thru hiker? A day hiking might be sporting a fancy Rolex but do people even yuppie histper wanna-bes go wandering into the woods with lots of valuables? I never carry cash and I don't wear jewelry in the "real" world so I wouldn't know.

Hey!!! Careful there. When I bought mine 20 years ago used I swore I am (and have) wearing that expensive bastard everywhere until I died then my wife's new boy friend could wear it! <laughing>

ROLEX

[donthaveoneyet]

I dunno if I buy that. There are lots of people found miles from where they should be. For the first 30-45 minutes I personally am still trying to find my way back to whatever it was I lost. Somewhere after about an hour of presumably wandering in close to circles I may only be 1/2 a mile straight line from where I am supposed to be. Foolish maybe but thus far it's worked for me as I'm still kicking and breathing. Note: I've only been "seriously" lost once. Even then I knew I'd cross a major road by simply walking east which is exactly what I did.

This seems right to me. The last time I was actually "lost" was on the AT in NY (I'm ashamed to admit), about five years ago. And I ended up walking a couple of miles in the wrong direction before I figured out where I was. Admittedly, not the same kind of terrain (by a long shot). But 3000 feet off trail is just a little over half a mile, very easy to do, especially in rainy conditions and when one is maybe not an experienced navigator.

All this speculation is normal, I guess, but disconcerting. (And here I am doing it, too.) It's sad that she died. I feel for her family and friends. That's about there is, at this point.

[donthaveoneyet]

all...........

[jbwood5]

This seems right to me. The last time I was actually "lost" was on the AT in NY (I'm ashamed to admit), about five years ago. And I ended up walking a couple of miles in the wrong direction before I figured out where I was. Admittedly, not the same kind of terrain (by a long shot). But 3000 feet off trail is just a little over half a mile, very easy to do, especially in rainy conditions and when one is maybe not an experienced navigator.

All this speculation is normal, I guess, but disconcerting. (And here I am doing it, too.) It's sad that she died. I feel for her family and friends. That's about there is, at this point.


A I recall, from the book about Grandma Gatewood, she got off the trail a good ways and was lost for a few days. Search parties could not find her, but she ultimately found her way back to the trail on her own. That was also in Maine.

[egilbe]

Didn't a female someone call Whitewolf inn and say she wasn't going to meet her husband when she was expected? Cell service there sucks, so I doubt it was Mrs Largo who called. I still suspect foul play.

[Wolf - 23000]

Tundra,

A BIG THANK YOU for let us all know the updates. Very sad news but at least her family will find closure.

V/R

Keith

[saltysack]

Hey!!! Careful there. When I bought mine 20 years ago used I swore I am (and have) wearing that expensive bastard everywhere until I died then my wife's new boy friend could wear it! <laughing>

ROLEX

[emoji16]they do hold value....I sold a submariner for $1,000 more than I paid for it 10 years earlier!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Starchild]

Occam's razor has never meant to be a way to come up with a conclusive answer, by its very logic it can not come up with a conclusive answer, it is only starting point speculative answer as a baseline.

Too many take Occam's razor as the defacto answer, while it is only a tool on the way to finding the answer.

[imscotty]

Didn't a female someone call Whitewolf inn and say she wasn't going to meet her husband when she was expected? Cell service there sucks, so I doubt it was Mrs Largo who called. I still suspect foul play.

That call always bothered me, but the Wardens Service did not think it suspicious.. I am sure they know more than me.

[GoldenBear]

> Didn't a female someone call Whitewolf inn and say she wasn't going to meet her husband when she was expected?
> Cell service there sucks, so I doubt it was Mrs Largo[sic] who called

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
http://thephoenix.com/boston/news/155248-major-maine-and-national-mystery/?page=2#TOPCONTENT

It wasn't the White Wolf Inn -- it was the Stratton Motel.
It clearly WASN'T Largay, and nobody has ever said it was.
The motel employee didn't get the name or location of the person who did call, and couldn't tell anything from the person's voice.
For all we know, the caller (if there was one) could have come off The Trail and phoned from a pay phone.
No hiker who even COULD have made the call has ever been identified.
The extent to which the original call, or the recollection of the original call, simply got the facts wrong, is unknown. For starters, Largay couldn't possibly have been at that lean-to on Tuesday.

[Slo-go'en]

Map here showing where she was found:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRc_-3jXAAExhcA.jpg:large

No wonder she wasn't found until now.

This map shows she was found on the side of a steep hill, well off the trail and she would have had to cross two streams. The trail follows along one of the streams for a while at the middle of the decent coming off of Spaulding Mt.

With it raining and water coming down the trail as it always does when it rains, she might have made the first stream crossing by accident. Then for some unknown reason she kept heading in the wrong direction until falling into a boulder trap which did her in. Maybe what she thought was a trail was actually a moose path.

[joshuasdad]

No wonder she wasn't found until now.

This map shows she was found on the side of a steep hill, well off the trail and she would have had to cross two streams. The trail follows along one of the streams for a while at the middle of the decent coming off of Spaulding Mt.

With it raining and water coming down the trail as it always does when it rains, she might have made the first stream crossing by accident. Then for some unknown reason she kept heading in the wrong direction until falling into a boulder trap which did her in. Maybe what she thought was a trail was actually a moose path.

I was thinking a false path as well. She comes down the hill from the shelter, crosses the stream, heads up a very steep rise to the Railroad road, then, a bit winded, takes a wrong turn towards the SERE facility, or alternatively, intentionally tries to bail out in that direction. Remember, that at that point she is going to be "late" because of the difficult terrain shortening her first day out, so a bail out is not out of the question.

Eventually she takes a path up (if in doubt, the trail is up, right?), but it is Reddington Mountain, not the Appalachian Trail. Maybe there was a sign for the SERE facility, so the moose (or other) path looked attractive at the time. There, she climbs a few hundred feet up, and has an accident or a medical issue.

I'm not thinking foul play, as she was found quite a long way up from the Railroad road.

I'm glad she was found so that her family and friends can have closure. I just wish the search would have ended differently.

[Water Rat]

During the press conference I thought I overheard one of the reporters asking about a tent. They chose not to elaborate at this time (I suspect to give the family time to start their grief process), but the Brentwood Home Page reports that Gerry was found inside her tent. Perhaps she realized she was in trouble and tried to make camp? Regardless, I am relieved to know her friends and family can stop the wondering about where she is. It is probable that they will never have all the answers, but at least they now have a chance at closure and peace.

http://www.brentwoodhomepage.com/missing-womans-tent-found-in-rugged-remote-navy-training-area-cms-23344#.ViGqQSuNAnI

[chknfngrs]

Wow that's some details well omitted. Wonder what shape the tent was in

[joshuasdad]

During the press conference I thought I overheard one of the reporters asking about a tent. They chose not to elaborate at this time (I suspect to give the family time to start their grief process), but the Brentwood Home Page reports that Gerry was found inside her tent. Perhaps she realized she was in trouble and tried to make camp? Regardless, I am relieved to know her friends and family can stop the wondering about where she is. It is probable that they will never have all the answers, but at least they now have a chance at closure and peace.

http://www.brentwoodhomepage.com/missing-womans-tent-found-in-rugged-remote-navy-training-area-cms-23344#.ViGqQSuNAnI

Interesting. The tent makes me think injury, but it is possible she might have run out of daylight after getting lost northwest (compass direction) of the trail. There are a number of false trails off to the northwest of the AT -- I remember seeing them, and Google Earth makes it look like a maze of logging trail -- see 2270 ft elevation mark on Google Earth.

If you were to become lost there (e.g., after losing the trail after a bathroom stop), it would be reasonable to drop down to Orbeton (sp?) stream so that a road or the trail could be found. She might have run out of daylight, become injured, or both. I'm remembering the phone ping north (AT-wise) from Orbeton stream, and that scenario would be consistent and understandable.

[Slo-go'en]

She was going north? That makes more sense. It's probably easier to get off track going up then going down in those conditions and going up at the wrong angle would help explain how she got to where she was found. A false path may have started her off in the wrong direction. I guess we'll just have to wait to find out if they discover any broken bones or torn clothing which would show injury.

[Starfly]

Evidently they were hers. Being in there and seeing the terrain and distances I can try to keep you posted. It seems the main 'body' of evidence with belongings was a bit further up the slope than we got.

[Starfly]

Opps was trying to replay about the bones we discovered on our search there. IF&W isn't telling me anything at all so I can't help with specifics. The area is very easy traveling and old growth forest. You can see for hundreds of yards in any given direction. Interesting about the tent didn't know that. I'm so relieved hope the family finds some peace

[Bluebearee]

During the press conference I thought I overheard one of the reporters asking about a tent. They chose not to elaborate at this time (I suspect to give the family time to start their grief process), but the Brentwood Home Page reports that Gerry was found inside her tent. Perhaps she realized she was in trouble and tried to make camp? Regardless, I am relieved to know her friends and family can stop the wondering about where she is. It is probable that they will never have all the answers, but at least they now have a chance at closure and peace.

http://www.brentwoodhomepage.com/missing-womans-tent-found-in-rugged-remote-navy-training-area-cms-23344#.ViGqQSuNAnI

Yes Adam dodged the answer whether she was in her tent or not. He deflected the question by saying it has been more than two years and gear has been out in the weather and they would have to examine all the items to determine blah blah blah.

Somehow the word was released that she was found in her sleeping bag as that was what was announced during BSP's annual fall meeting today. I haven't seen that detail anywhere and wonder if it was one of those early erroneous statements made in an investigation.

If you've ever seen a tent that's been left to weather, I can understand how it might not be possible to ascertain if it was indeed set up and intact at one point. However it's either out and tattered or still somewhat balled up in a stuff sack. Same w a sleeping bag. Wish I knew one of those folks in the photo who's looking down at the ground/found scene. This would be good information to know.

[Driver8]

I haven't seen this grid map posted here yet. It's far more useful than the green one. She was not near Orbeton Stream - I'm not home, but I'd like to overlay with my AT map's elevations (she's at 2050') where Barnjum Rd is. That's the way I went in two years ago and MASAR did too just recently according to photos. I'm sorry but you wouldn't be that far off trail for any reason on your own accord. And yes the reason of death for someone with gear and food can only be two. Medical or foul.

32329

Thanks for posting this, Bluebearee.

Here's what we know.

1. She was found as marked on the above map. This spot lies, generally, along a course from the col between Saddleback, southward on the AT, and Spaulding northward, on the one hand, and the A.T. road crossing in the col between Sugarloaf and Crocker.

2. Search team spokesperson says no foul play suspected, pending M.E. report.

3. Brentwood paper says she was found in her tent, rumor from BSP meeting is she was in sleeping bag.

4. She was supposed to meet her husband up at Rt. 27 crossing with A.T., further north on A.T. from the Crocker-Sugarloaf col.

5. Due to long distance of stretch from Rangely to Stratton, Inchworm was carrying heavy pack, which she usually didn't do.

6. Her husband got no communique from her after she left Poplar Ridge shelter, more or less.

Hypothesized scenario, based on the above: She gets to the low col between Saddleback Junior and Spaulding. Maybe injured, or maybe fatigued by hard trail, maybe ill, or maybe just fine but overtaxed by the hard trail, she decides to take low road rather than climbing couple thousand hard feet and a couple miles NOBO on the AT to Spaulding Shelter. Goal: get to the road crossing in the col between Crocker and Sugarloaf. There, either meet her husband or get ride to rendezvous with him in Stratton. Maybe affected by cold rain, maybe not, she decides to camp for the night where found, almost two miles off trail (3000 yards north of the A.T., not feet, per the report I read, which quoted distance, from the news conference, matches with an eyeball survey on Google Earth). May have chose to camp there because a bit into the woods from whatever road, trail or herd path she was following - the 100 yards by which the search dogs missed her when they passed through the area.

From this point, she could have died peacefully in her sleep from causes bourne of distress, or just of unforced natural causes. Or somehow else. Up to the M.E. to look it over and see.

It would seem entirely plausible that, for any of a number of reasons, she opted to head north and east through the lower lands to avoid the high ridges, either due to the difficulty of the terrain or to bad weather, or both, much less possible injury or other distress. One would think she likely tried to contact her husband once she diverted off the A.T., to no avail due to her isolated location. It could have been any of a number of scenarios, in fact, but it need not have been illness, injury or foul play.

[Driver8]

The Wardens aren't speculating how she ended up where she did. There is no evidence of foul play at this point apparently the ME will be able to answer that. But a lot of things can cause disorientation. Dehydration from a stomach bug or other illnesses, medication issues, small stroke, fell or walked into a branch and was dazed, heart problem, left the trail to relieve herself and took a wrong turn, all kinds of things could happen that could lead to that. We may never know what happened if the ME report comes back as natural causes.

The only evidence we have that she was disoriented is that she was off trail, but we cannot conclusively say she was disoriented - as I suggest above, she may have taken this course deliberately. And the area is remote, but a look at Google Earth satellite photos shows that it's got quite a few roads and paths through it, albeit doubtless rough going.

[Driver8]

PS: The 3000 yards figure I quote is from the Kennebec Journal, http://www.centralmaine.com/2015/10/16/skeletal-remains-likely-those-of-missing-hiker-largay-wardens-say/ and from the Portland Press-Herald: http://www.pressherald.com/2015/10/16/authorities-believe-they-found-skeletal-remains-of-appalachian-trail-hiker-missing-since-2013/

[Driver8]

Finally, looking at Google Earth, her remains were found near some sort of road cut (I'm guessing this is the route taken by the dog teams that just missed her). If she camped out and awoke without incident, rather than dying apparently in her sleeping bag in her tent, she had about a mile and a half of pretty easily findable woods road, generally north eastward, through fairly level terrain, to an open dirt road which would've gotten her to the A.T. crossing between Crocker and Sugarloaf. She very well could've been aiming to get to that road walk and, if in distress, to get a ride to that crossing or just to hoof it herself. A lot easier than the A.T. she'd have avoided. The routing I would postulate would be AT to the railroad corridor, NNW a mile or so, shooting more northerly on what may be a woods road on a rough bushwhack, finding more open woods near where her remains were found, camping out there just a bit off a nearby woods road she was walking.

It may have been raining pretty good when she stopped to make camp, erasing or dulling sent she might've left along the road and where she diverted from it, if indeed she did, to her camping spot. This may have made her scent too dilute for the dogs to detect.

[Driver8]

Finally, looking at Google Earth, her remains were found near some sort of road cut (I'm guessing this is the route taken by the dog teams that just missed her). If she camped out and awoke without incident, rather than dying apparently in her sleeping bag in her tent, she had about a mile and a half of pretty easily findable woods road, generally north eastward, through fairly level terrain, to an open dirt road which would've gotten her to the A.T. crossing between Crocker and Sugarloaf. She very well could've been aiming to get to that road walk and, if in distress, to get a ride to that crossing or just to hoof it herself. A lot easier than the A.T. she'd have avoided. The routing I would postulate would be AT to the railroad corridor, NNW a mile or so, shooting more northeasterly on what may be a woods road on a rough bushwhack, finding more open woods road near where her remains were found, camping out there just a bit off a woods road she was walking.

It may have been raining pretty good when she stopped to make camp, erasing or dulling sent she might've left along the road and where she diverted from it, if indeed she did, to her camping spot. This may have made her scent too dilute for the dogs to detect.

[Bluebearee]

From everything her long standing hiking partners have said, including the woman who hiked up until Vermont w her in 2013 Gerry was a very predictable backpacker. She disliked camping alone between shelters & never (rarely?)did. I find it highly unlikely she deliberately went off the AT or any road of any kind to try to find some other way around climbing Spaulding and Sugarloaf. This was totally against her MO. So while the wardens aren't speculating or asking why there? I am. She was found at an elevation higher than the RR bed above Orbeton Stream and lower than Barnjum Rd ~2050 feet. That will likely always remain a mystery.

She also carried a standard orange whistle on the front shoulder strap of her pack. Was this used? No one ever heard it.

My comment about illness or foul play refers only to her cause of death - not why she was where she was found. A hiker with a sleeping bag, tent, clothing and food and access to water in JULY in Maine could only perish due to the above two reasons.

The r

[Pedaling Fool]

I see we're back at the Yards, not Feet, unit of measure... I find it interesting that there seems to be a shortage of trained individuals, apparently because many of them are not physically fit...I wonder how many more trained searchers would be available if all were "physically fit".

"We typically like to run grid searches behind the K9s, but because of the terrain, because we didn’t have enough trained, physically fit people, we couldn’t do that in a lot of cases."

[Bluebearee]

PS: The 3000 yards figure I quote is from the Kennebec Journal, http://www.centralmaine.com/2015/10/16/skeletal-remains-likely-those-of-missing-hiker-largay-wardens-say/ and from the Portland Press-Herald: http://www.pressherald.com/2015/10/16/authorities-believe-they-found-skeletal-remains-of-appalachian-trail-hiker-missing-since-2013/

I watched the press conference and took notes and I heard 3000 feet as well as did Aislinn:

https://bangordailynews.com/2015/10/16/news/state/bittersweet-day-as-missing-at-hiker-geraldine-largays-remains-believed-to-be-found-in-western-maine/

I know Aislinn and can ask her to confirm.

[Pedaling Fool]

I watched the press conference and took notes and I heard 3000 feet as well as did Aislinn:

https://bangordailynews.com/2015/10/16/news/state/bittersweet-day-as-missing-at-hiker-geraldine-largays-remains-believed-to-be-found-in-western-maine/

I know Aislinn and can ask her to confirm.By looking at the provided maps (which don't have scale) it does seem to me that the remains were only 3,000 ft vice yards, but still waiting for confirmation.

[Driver8]

From everything her long standing hiking partners have said, including the woman who hiked up until Vermont w her in 2013 Gerry was a very predictable backpacker. She disliked camping alone between shelters & never (rarely?)did. I find it highly unlikely she deliberately went off the AT or any road of any kind to try to find some other way around climbing Spaulding and Sugarloaf. This was totally against her MO. So while the wardens aren't speculating or asking why there? I am. She was found at an elevation higher than the RR bed above Orbeton Stream and lower than Barnjum Rd ~2050 feet. That will likely always remain a mystery.

She also carried a standard orange whistle on the front shoulder strap of her pack. Was this used? No one ever heard it.

My comment about illness or foul play refers only to her cause of death - not why she was where she was found. A hiker with a sleeping bag, tent, clothing and food and access to water in JULY in Maine could only perish due to the above two reasons.

The r

People die peacefully in their sleep of strokes, heart attacks and other natural causes all the time. If she had chest pain and was seeking to minimize the burden on her heart, she might've taken the low route deliberately as I suggest.

None of us knows what happened, and with the remains and other evidence just recovered, the M.E. may not be able to piece her cause of death together. There's a lot we don't know - we don't know for a fact that she was disoriented, that I can say with certainty. And the fact is, she was along a pretty rational course to traverse the lowlands from one A.T. low point to another. That may be coincidence. We should not, however, speak as though we know things which we do not and cannot, I respectfully submit.

[rickb]

A hiker with a sleeping bag, tent, clothing and food and access to water in JULY in Maine could only perish due to the above two reasons.

You mentioned that a couple times.

How about as the result of hypothermia? Do you consider that an illness?

Obviously having a tent and sleeping bag help reduce the chances of that, but even in July is that not a real possibility- especially if one is wet from a soaking rain or problematic stream crossing?

I was near hypothermic on the AT exactly one time and that was in Maine in July in the Bigalows.

When you consider where she was found, were there any stream crossings where she could have tripped and gotten in trouble? We're there any where she might have been motivated to walk upstream to find an easier rock hop, and then possibly have gotten "turned around" on the other side?

[Driver8]

I watched the press conference and took notes and I heard 3000 feet as well as did Aislinn:

https://bangordailynews.com/2015/10/16/news/state/bittersweet-day-as-missing-at-hiker-geraldine-largays-remains-believed-to-be-found-in-western-maine/

I know Aislinn and can ask her to confirm.

If you got in Google Earth and draw a straight line perpendicular from the A.T. to the recovery site, as I have, it measures about 1.3 miles. If someone walked a curvy path from the A.T., via the Railroad track, then along paths from the said track to her last campsite, it's probably 3000 yards.

It's possible the spokesperson misspoke in the press conference, and the journalists who wrote the two articles I linked double checked to confirm the correct distance.

In any event, the place where the remains were found has been specified on a map. It is not close to the A.T. They tried to find her where she ended up but lacked the resources to comb that area and others like it so far from the A.T. corridor. They did the best they could, it looks like. Fortunately her remains appear finally to have been found.

[Pedaling Fool]

It's possible the spokesperson misspoke in the press conference, and the journalists who wrote the two articles I linked double checked to confirm the correct distance.
This does happen a lot and it's happened here, not sure who made the mistake yet, but I find it irritating how people seem to use feet/yards/meters interchangeably -- yes, even when people use yards and meters interchangeably bugs the hell out of me:mad:

[Bluebearee]

This does happen a lot and it's happened here, not sure who made the mistake yet, but I find it irritating how people seem to use feet/yards/meters interchangeably -- yes, even when people use yards and meters interchangeably bugs the hell out of me:mad:

I've sent a message to MASAR to confirm this. It's an important difference. But I know I heard feet. I can't find a video of that part of the conference - though there is one of the Q&A portion on line.

[QHShowoman]

I heard "feet" as well.

[Bluebearee]

You mentioned that a couple times.

How about as the result of hypothermia? Do you consider that an illness?

Obviously having a tent and sleeping bag help reduce the chances of that, but even in July is that not a real possibility- especially if one is wet from a soaking rain or problematic stream crossing?

I was near hypothermic on the AT exactly one time and that was in Maine in July in the Bigalows.

When you consider where she was found, were there any stream crossings where she could have tripped and gotten in trouble? We're there any where she might have been motivated to walk upstream to find an easier rock hop, and then possibly have gotten "turned around" on the other side?

Yes I consider and have been trained to consider hypothermia as an illness or medical event. I should have qualified that statement to encompass "medical event". She would have just rockhopper Orbeton Stream that Monday. It was a dry day and by all accounts of hikers that Monday it was a rock hop. (As it was my thru hike). Hypothermia in July (I live here - Maine is the Arctic people like to make it, summers are hot) with access to fleece, sleeping bag and food & water (the last two just as important to stave off hypothermia) would be unlikely. But of course were she impaired as it appears she must have been due to other circumstances by Tuesday when it DID start to rain....this becomes much more of a possibility. Not using the whistle also suggests severe impairment. All we know is a whistle wasn't heard by anyone in the day and days after she disappeared. She may have tried it. How far can that be heard in thick terrain?

I doubt we'll get more answers to this and at least now we know where she ended up. This has been a big topic for two years here in Maine and it can partially be put to rest.

[Driver8]

This does happen a lot and it's happened here, not sure who made the mistake yet, but I find it irritating how people seem to use feet/yards/meters interchangeably -- yes, even when people use yards and meters interchangeably bugs the hell out of me:mad:

A lot of ppl have a very poor sense of distance and spatial relations. If you're blessed to be strong in that area, patience comes in handy. I count myself fortunate in this regard - very pleased to be able to help others orient themselves when I come across them out on trail and they're a bit puzzled. It's a nice gift to be able to pass along. :)

Here, as I've said, if you drop a perpendicular from the A.T. corridor near the RR corridor crossing to the place where the remains were found, it comes out at about 1.3 miles. That's about 2333 yards or 7000 feet - quite a bit closer to 9000 feet/3000 yards than to 1000 yards/3000 feet. The spokesman seems to have said 3000 feet in the press conf - I only saw a three minute except of it on Youtube and missed that part, but Bluebearee doubtless is correct. Lots of room for human error in such endeavors.

[bamboo bob]

Didn't a female someone call Whitewolf inn and say she wasn't going to meet her husband when she was expected? Cell service there sucks, so I doubt it was Mrs Largo who called. I still suspect foul play. Yes, that remains unexplained.

[Traveler]

Hypothermia can be a considerable problem, July in and of itself is no protection from it or its effects anywhere in the Northeastern mountains. Temperatures common to those mountains range from the 70s to mid 40s. The effects of hypothermia have caused more than a few people to not think or react well to various circumstances.

This could have been the result of perhaps a simple and perhaps most common trail error most all of us have made, walking off the trail. Perhaps the best example are what I call "monkey tails", when the trail takes a sharp turn or jog and animals or water have made it appear the trail goes the same direction you have been walking. On uphills, head down and in the "zone", its not hard to miss a blaze or the see turn of the trail, your eye will be looking forward and if the treadway is similar, you can easily keep going. Some of these monkey tails can look more like the trail than the actual trail does, go quite a ways off the trail, and leave you well into the forest without a real good idea of how to return because you don't know where you left the trail. Having experienced this a few times in the Maine wilderness, it can be exceptionally frightening and exhausting.

It does not take a long time for the effects of stress from being lost compounded by the effects of adrenaline and/or hypothermia to start conspiring. Even carrying the right gear, if you get to it late or are unable to get a fire going or generate internal warmth enough to stop the erosion of conscienceless the process can continue to its conclusion.

I am not saying this is what happened, only that its well within the realm of possibility given what we now know. More facts are likely forthcoming that will paint a more accurate picture of what occurred that day. Much like pilots and how aviation delves into incidents and accidents, hikers are rather similar. Our body of knowledge is populated with the experiences of others both good and bad.

[Pedaling Fool]

Here, as I've said, if you drop a perpendicular from the A.T. corridor near the RR corridor crossing to the place where the remains were found, it comes out at about 1.3 miles. That's about 2333 yards or 7000 feet - quite a bit closer to 9000 feet/3000 yards than to 1000 yards/3000 feet. The spokesman seems to have said 3000 feet in the press conf - I only saw a three minute except of it on Youtube and missed that part, but Bluebearee doubtless is correct. Lots of room for human error in such endeavors.
I'm not betting against your estimation; I still see it as a very real possibility. What you were looking at was definitely better than what I've looked at -- I'm not even going to hazard a guess based on what I've seen.

[Driver8]

I'm not betting against your estimation; I still see it as a very real possibility. What you were looking at was definitely better than what I've looked at -- I'm not even going to hazard a guess based on what I've seen.

Anyone with Google Earth on a laptop can draw a line like I describe. It's one of the options in the toolbar across the top. Having clicked on the "draw a path" icon, you then draw whatever path you want, straight or curliqued or what-have-you. I did this, draw a line from point A to point B as described and got the result I shared. Try it - it's fun. Can be a fun way, for instance, to estimate the steepness of a certain slope, such as Beaver Brook Trail on Moosilauke or Hunt Trail on Katahdin. (1500 foot rise in about a mile is about a 30% grade, for example.)

[Traveler]

I have seen and heard two different measurements from two different points between the press conference yesterday and printed statements. Due to the difficulty in hearing the questions from the live press conference, I have no idea which is what.

What I have read/heard is:

3000 feet was used both times the number was referenced. The conference said 3,000 feet from the trail, the published statement said 3,000 feet from the eastern shore of Redington Pond.

100 yards was used, I heard both measurements used to describe the distance from the eastern pond shore and distance from the AT.

Certainly is some conflict there. According to the map, it would seem 100 yards from the trail and 3000 feet from the pond shore fits, but without a scale of measure accurate to their map, its only an impression.

[tdoczi]

I was thinking a false path as well. She comes down the hill from the shelter, crosses the stream, heads up a very steep rise to the Railroad road, then, a bit winded, takes a wrong turn towards the SERE facility, or alternatively, intentionally tries to bail out in that direction. Remember, that at that point she is going to be "late" because of the difficult terrain shortening her first day out, so a bail out is not out of the question.

Eventually she takes a path up (if in doubt, the trail is up, right?), but it is Reddington Mountain, not the Appalachian Trail. Maybe there was a sign for the SERE facility, so the moose (or other) path looked attractive at the time. There, she climbs a few hundred feet up, and has an accident or a medical issue.

I'm not thinking foul play, as she was found quite a long way up from the Railroad road.

I'm glad she was found so that her family and friends can have closure. I just wish the search would have ended differently.

perhaps worth noting is that railroad in the direction of the sere facility is not noted on the hiking maps, so the intersection you encounter there does not match what you are expecting, i can see how that might contribute to someone getting lost, wandering up railroad road thinking it was the AT and then stumble upon an informal path up mt redington.

as i said way back when i first heard about the existence of the sere facility, the way the maps handle that area like there just isnt even anything there is strange.

[Water Rat]

I didn't know Gerry, but everything I've read leads me to believe she liked routine. Not surprising since she was also a nurse. She might not have had much experience off-trail, but she struck me as someone who would probably have handled the matter with level-headed thinking. She didn't strike me as someone who would have needlessly kept wandering in the hopes of finding the trail. She was someone who liked routines and plans. She was someone who had a husband and kids and grandchildren to go home to.

For whatever reason, she ended up off trail - Easy enough to do in Maine with all the game trails leading here and there. It is also easy to get turned around once you are off-trail. Regardless she was off trail. IF she was injured, or encountering illness/ hypothermia (if she was in a sleeping bag & tent, she was not in mid or late stages of hypothermia because she would not be thinking clearly enough) then it actually makes sense to put herself on SERE property in the hopes someone would happen to come by and help her out of her predicament.

The scenario I see is that once she found herself off trail (and realized it), she did the best she could to put herself in a position to be found. If this is the case, it worked. Unfortunately, just not soon enough. If she was in a sleeping bag and tent, it is possible that she was getting out of the elements and attempting to get herself safe and warm until daylight when the situation could be reassessed. In the meantime, if someone happens by on patrol, then maybe she gets helped that much faster.

[Starfly]

There is a well marked/obvious yellow blaze trail that heads off from railroad road to the north east directly to the spot where she was found (spot = 100 yard area) If she headed north on railroad road after getting to its intersection from the AT she could have possibly tried this trail to reconnect with the AT or some other mistaken strategy. Going north on railroad road is far more appealing than south as its more wide open and inviting and you don't see the AT there from a casual glance. She would have had to walk past a navy base sign but might have been looking at her cell at the time for a signal. Its a common area for cell phones to receive messages. As a side note and I think I mentioned it, the forest here is the exact opposite of dense. Its old growth as mention in the media articles. For those who know what old growth is, it isn't dense forest in this spot. Nearer Poplar Ridge it is. Just some thoughts.

[SawnieRobertson]

I recall men's bodies being found inside their tents close to other trails through the years. They had succumbed to coronary problems. Inchworm would have recognized such problems if they began, and all might have thought that the best course would have been to lie down and rest until they had passed. (Not herself passed but the symptoms she might have been feeling.) Being a cautious woman, she might have walked to get out of sight because we are all aware that we must not be visible alone in the woods as single women of any age. That thought makes sense to me. What does not make sense to me is, if she was feeling unable to hike on that day, why did she not just sit down on the trail waiting for another hiker to come along and give her aid? We have read that she was in a very affable mood, laughing and talking at the shelter, before taking off that morning. She had every reason to believe as early as she reached the vicinity of the location at which she was found that other hikers would show up. And, indeed, they probably did walk past where she left trail. Forensic experts are probably having a lot of speculative conversations today about this one.

[tdoczi]

There is a well marked/obvious yellow blaze trail that heads off from railroad road to the north east directly to the spot where she was found (spot = 100 yard area) If she headed north on railroad road after getting to its intersection from the AT she could have possibly tried this trail to reconnect with the AT or some other mistaken strategy. Going north on railroad road is far more appealing than south as its more wide open and inviting and you don't see the AT there from a casual glance. She would have had to walk past a navy base sign but might have been looking at her cell at the time for a signal. Its a common area for cell phones to receive messages. As a side note and I think I mentioned it, the forest here is the exact opposite of dense. Its old growth as mention in the media articles. For those who know what old growth is, it isn't dense forest in this spot. Nearer Poplar Ridge it is. Just some thoughts.

also worth considering is how long it would take even a very slow hiker to hike from poplar ridge shelter to the spot she was found by going on the AT and turning off at the nearest point to her location. it would seem unlikely she walked directly there. she may have been lost for some time and ended up where she ended up, maybe that wasnt even until the next day, who knows.

i suspect the intersection with the railroad and/or the stream crossing to be where she lost the trail. i remember being confused there for a second myself. i also agree, my recollection of that area is that the forest around oberton stream is atypically un-dense.

[DaSchwartz]

I think this happened. She got lost and it really can be hard to find the trail again once you are lost. Everything looks the same. When you are hopelessly lost, you will do anything to be found. She sees the signs for private land and figures that's her best of rescue, that if the land is that well marked, there has a to be rescue, shelter, a road nearby. She sees the lake, even better odds of being spotted and rescued plus a water source. Then a medical event happened, could be traumatic that prevented her from moving, could be a heart attack.... Sad, but the family now has closure.

[Pedaling Fool]

Anyone with Google Earth on a laptop can draw a line like I describe. It's one of the options in the toolbar across the top. Having clicked on the "draw a path" icon, you then draw whatever path you want, straight or curliqued or what-have-you. I did this, draw a line from point A to point B as described and got the result I shared. Try it - it's fun. Can be a fun way, for instance, to estimate the steepness of a certain slope, such as Beaver Brook Trail on Moosilauke or Hunt Trail on Katahdin. (1500 foot rise in about a mile is about a 30% grade, for example.)I hear you, but I want to see official clarification of this. They say the remains were found about 3,500 ft of the easterly shore of Redington Pond; however, they don't really specify how close to the AT this was. https://www.facebook.com/mainefishwildlife/posts/10153675512983609

From best I can tell (depending on what part of the pond you go east, blah, blah, blah... that doesn't put her remains 3,000 yards off trail. At least it doesn't when I use the interactive map on the ATC website, but when I use my AT map at home I can see her being much further off trail. I'm not sure if trusting google would be better or not, rather see official clarification.

[SueJhiker]

https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2014/12/30/how-could-woman-just-vanish/CkjirwQF7RGnw4VkAl6TWM/story.html This section of the trail... Do any of you experienced thru hikers know.. is the trail is not well marked? Could she have got disoriented off the trail and got hurt without cell phone service?

[vamelungeon]

I think this happened. She got lost and it really can be hard to find the trail again once you are lost. Everything looks the same. When you are hopelessly lost, you will do anything to be found. She sees the signs for private land and figures that's her best of rescue, that if the land is that well marked, there has a to be rescue, shelter, a road nearby. She sees the lake, even better odds of being spotted and rescued plus a water source. Then a medical event happened, could be traumatic that prevented her from moving, could be a heart attack.... Sad, but the family now has closure.
I think that's a likely scenario. Lost, maybe injured or sick. I've taken a wrong turn before and I just pushed on until I came to some people who told me my current location, and it was a LONG way from the trail I had been on. If I were lost and maybe having a medical emergency, I might just go onto posted property hoping to be found.

[Pedaling Fool]

I hear you, but I want to see official clarification of this. They say the remains were found about 3,500 ft of the easterly shore of Redington Pond; however, they don't really specify how close to the AT this was. https://www.facebook.com/mainefishwildlife/posts/10153675512983609

From best I can tell (depending on what part of the pond you go east, blah, blah, blah... that doesn't put her remains 3,000 yards off trail. At least it doesn't when I use the interactive map on the ATC website, but when I use my AT map at home I can see her being much further off trail. I'm not sure if trusting google would be better or not, rather see official clarification.
Correction:

They say the remains were found about 3,500 ft EAST of the easterly shore of Redington Pond...

[Odd Man Out]

Zooming in on the picture provided and spotting that on the ATC map, the spot is just about exactly 3500 ft east of the pond as reported. This puts her about 2200 ft from the trail.

32341

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[Pedaling Fool]

Zooming in on the picture provided and spotting that on the ATC map, the spot is just about exactly 3500 ft east of the pond as reported. This puts her about 2200 ft from the trail.

32341

32342

32343Yeah, that's about the point I was measuring from, very near the dam.

[Driver8]

Zooming in on the picture provided and spotting that on the ATC map, the spot is just about exactly 3500 ft east of the pond as reported. This puts her about 2200 ft from the trail.

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This is substantially what I did. Differences I drew the line from where the railroad grade crosses the AT, which yielded 1.3 miles. If she took a relatively straightforward route up the railroad grade, shooting north east off of it along a beaten path to where she ended up, her walk would have been about 2 miles from the AT.

The key point raised by how far her remains were found from the trail is the question of whether the searchers should have combed over that area more thoroughly. I'm inclined to Believe that they did the best I could under the circumstances, given the resources and time pressures which prevailed.

[Mfrenchy]

This is so sad, I was holding out hope for her.

Questions I would like answers to:

1. Cause of death
2. How much food she had left
3. Was that area searched, if not, why

If I'm not mistaken, this is the general area we narrowed it down to when we were speculating a few years ago.

[Malto]

looking at the topo map on Postholers Google Map site shows a number of trails including what could be a old rerouted section of the AT in that area. I haven't hiked that section yet but at least on the map it looks likes a number of possible alternates that could have been taken in that area.
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[GoldenBear]

> strangle someone and the skeleton wouldn't show it

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=140062
The literature suggests that, in all types of strangulation, the thyroid is the most likely neck structure to be fractured. Fracture of the hyoid is most common in manual strangulations in which about 34 percent of all victims show a fractured hyoid, 34 percent fractured thyroid, and 1 percent fractured cricoid. In ligature strangulations, the frequency of hyoid fracture falls to about 11 percent compared to 32 percent thyroid and 9 percent cricoid
Strangle an elderly person and the odds are on the order of 40% that the skeleton will show something.

Unfortunately, the lack of any such fractures are not proof that an elderly person WASN'T strangled, so it won't be ruled out. I have little doubt but that the people who insist that she was murdered will state, "The lack of any evidence of foul play SUPPORTS my viewpoint!"

[Praha4]

I think that's a likely scenario. Lost, maybe injured or sick. I've taken a wrong turn before and I just pushed on until I came to some people who told me my current location, and it was a LONG way from the trail I had been on. If I were lost and maybe having a medical emergency, I might just go onto posted property hoping to be found.

I agree with you. I missed a turn on the AT/LT just north if Seth Warner shelter once in VT. Spent half a day hiking down a mud & gravel gully, after a while I just decided to push on, looking at my map....thinking I was going to end up in Bennington, looking at the angle of the afternoon sun, but I was off, and eventually ended up on County Rd, and ran into a local who showed me where I was on the map. Somehow I had actually done almost a 90 deg. turn and was heading west when I thought I was heading NNW. No compass on me either, which I know better. An emergency compass is a must have- along with a whistle.

Ended up just hiking down County Rd. and hitching into Bennington. In that case, I did not follow my #1 rule for not getting lost on the AT. If you don't see a white blaze after a half hour, you are probably off the trail, and I turn around and backtrack til I pick up a white blaze. It's easy to get off the AT in some sections of New England (and other regions to be honest), because it's not marked as well in some sections. Some sections you see a blaze every couple hundred yards or closer, some sections you can go for over a mile with no blazes. If she missed a blaze somehow, and wandered off the trail, no cell signal, she may have started to panic, increased B.P., adrenaline rush, possibility of cardiac event rises.

[WMR]

Forgive the novice, or if this has been answered already in this long thread:

On the satellite photo,what are the numerous white/pale bald spots or hash marks? Natural phenomena or some overlay on the photo?

[rocketsocks]

Forgive the novice, or if this has been answered already in this long thread:

On the satellite photo,what are the numerous white/pale bald spots or hash marks? Natural phenomena or some overlay on the photo?Elevation markers.

[chknfngrs]

No tent, right? If she carried a lighter pack is it reasonable to believe that she was found in a sleeping bag only? This to me seems like she just got lost or turned around coinciding with medical duress.

[tdoczi]

looking at the topo map on Postholers Google Map site shows a number of trails including what could be a old rerouted section of the AT in that area. I haven't hiked that section yet but at least on the map it looks likes a number of possible alternates that could have been taken in that area.
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google shows that weird fork in the AT too. dunno what that is. nearby mt redington is a 4Ker with no formal trail to the top and as such has multiple informal routes up it. i imagine (and others have seemingly confirmed) that there is at least 1 that leaves the railroad bed in that area.

[Water Rat]

No tent, right? If she carried a lighter pack is it reasonable to believe that she was found in a sleeping bag only? This to me seems like she just got lost or turned around coinciding with medical duress.

A lighter pack could simply mean less food, rather than ditching shelter and sleeping bag. Since she had spent the prior night in a shelter, that leads me to believe she at least had her sleeping bag with her.

[Heliotrope]

Is there any reason to leave the trail if you are suffering from cardiac symptoms or an injury of some kind when staying on trail is a more likely way to find help? Murder seems highly unlikely. I think she got lost first then the panic and stress induced a heart attack.

I got lost once on the AT in NY south of Bear Mt. I didn't realize I left the AT and followed another trail for hours. Then I heard s road and tried to make a beeline for it but got bogged down in dense vegetation. So I continued on the trail I was on and eventually found a quiet paved road. Flipped a coin as to which way to go. In the end I spent an entire day lost and ended up about 30 road miles from where I expected to be. During the entire day I never saw another soul. My point is it is possible to get disoriented even on a well marked path like the AT.


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[modiyooch]

I don't think hypothermia, if she had the presence of mind to put up her tent.
I don't think she needed medical attention, because the area was populated, and all she had to do was to stay put for awhile. (I hiked Saddleback the day prior)
If she was heading off the trail, why didn't she stay on the road?
If she got lost, and setup camp; I'm believe she would have written her thoughts on paper, or on her phone and time will tell.
It is a mystery.

[lightingguy]

That's exactly what I was thinking. It's unpossible to find you if you are dead and/or hiding. If you're kicking and presumably screaming, it's a whole lot easier.

This one I need to read. How the hell do you lose an airplane. They are supposed to follow flight plans and have radar signatures.

You lose an airplane when an inexperienced flight crew gets lost, makes mistakes in procedures for instrument flight landings, flies outside the suggested missed approach boundaries given local terrain, then flies into a mountain having again, not followed instructions for when and how low to start a decent. Boom into a mountain.

The mountain was the lower east slopes of Smarts Mt., which as BTW the AT goes right over, so maybe a 1/2 mile away. The plane crashed in winter in a blow down area, then got covered in snow, and it took a surveyor to find.

[tdoczi]

You lose an airplane when an inexperienced flight crew gets lost, makes mistakes in procedures for instrument flight landings, flies outside the suggested missed approach boundaries given local terrain, then flies into a mountain having again, not followed instructions for when and how low to start a decent. Boom into a mountain.

The mountain was the lower east slopes of Smarts Mt., which as BTW the AT goes right over, so maybe a 1/2 mile away. The plane crashed in winter in a blow down area, then got covered in snow, and it took a surveyor to find.

you either mean mt success or this has actually happened twice.

[4eyedbuzzard]

you either mean mt success or this has actually happened twice.The Mt. Success crash was a DC3 in 1954. The one referenced above from my original post a few pages back was a LearJet crash in 1996 near Smarts Mountain. The only reason I bring the incident up occasionally is because people often don't realize how hard it can be to find things/people in the woods and mountains.

But I would submit that these multi-year searches where people and even pretty large things like aircraft go missing for years, is a lesson in why if you are injured or need help to NOT leave the trail. Bushwacking off trail makes people very hard to find.

[Starfly]

Thanks for mentioning the Learjet crash buzzard. Similar terrain, location, and quite frankly circumstances as Inchworm from a search perspective. That one reference, along with many others one could reference, is the trump card to any and all of the defeatist views to not search or stop searching. Just because 'professionals' have tried doesn't mean that a person(s) can't be found. I can be very difficult to find things lost in the wilderness. Never give up.

[Deacon]

For the remote areas of the AT, I strongly suggest hikers have available Guthook's AT Hiker app. (If they carry a smartphone). There is no cell signal required and can show exactly your location in relation to the AT.
It has saved my bacon twice.

[Madpaddy]

http://wkrn.com/2015/10/16/remains-of-missing-brentwood-hiker-found-in-maine/
God bless her and her family

[SawnieRobertson]

The Mt. Success crash was a DC3 in 1954. The one referenced above from my original post a few pages back was a LearJet crash in 1996 near Smarts Mountain. The only reason I bring the incident up occasionally is because people often don't realize how hard it can be to find things/people in the woods and mountains.

But I would submit that these multi-year searches where people and even pretty large things like aircraft go missing for years, is a lesson in why if you are injured or need help to NOT leave the trail. Bushwacking off trail makes people very hard to find.

VERY good point. Educational.

[tridavis]

For the remote areas of the AT, I strongly suggest hikers have available Guthook's AT Hiker app. (If they carry a smartphone). There is no cell signal required and can show exactly your location in relation to the AT.
It has saved my bacon twice.

THIS!!! It has saved me twice now from heading down the wrong trail for more than a few hundred feet.

[wnderer]

32349

My guess is she did something I've done and that is hike down the feeder trail and doesn't realize this until she hits the road. This prevented her from making the shelter so she camps in the woods out of site of the trail on the 22nd. On the 23rd it rains hard but she needs to meet her husband on the 24th so she hikes anyway. In the rain she can't find her way back to the trail. She gets hypothermia and dies.

Again the Google map doesn't match the map in the news.

[kayak karl]

For the remote areas of the AT, I strongly suggest hikers have available Guthook's AT Hiker app. (If they carry a smartphone). There is no cell signal required and can show exactly your location in relation to the AT.
It has saved my bacon twice.
when things go bad they go bad quick and batteries die. compass and map.

My condolences to Inchworm's family. May yous find peace.

[joshuasdad]

For the remote areas of the AT, I strongly suggest hikers have available Guthook's AT Hiker app. (If they carry a smartphone). There is no cell signal required and can show exactly your location in relation to the AT.
It has saved my bacon twice.

I did not know that about working w/o cell signal -- thanks! I think you can buy trail sections separately, so in hindsight, the app would have been very nice to have in New Hampshire (to help with the trail junctions), Maine (because ramifications of losing trail can be severe), and Southwestern Virginia (because of isolation, and I tended to lose the trail a lot there, especially near rhody patches).

[FlyFishNut]

[emoji16]they do hold value....I sold a submariner for $1,000 more than I paid for it 10 years earlier!!!


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I have my dad's Submariner he bought when I was in the 10th grade (1985). My dad was not materialistic and was fairly cheap - but advised me to always have a good timepiece!

[rafe]

I have my dad's Submariner he bought when I was in the 10th grade (1985). My dad was not materialistic and was fairly cheap - but advised me to always have a good timepiece!

For that purpose, a cheap Timex or Casio will do as well as a Rolex.

[modiyooch]

IMO, whatever happened to her, happened early morning. I say this because she was only 2 miles from the last shelter; plus, no one remembers passing her that day. And if is was foul play, that would be the area that I would suspect foul play due to the road access. It's a very remote road!!!! It took us an hour to venture back in there by car. Hopefully, more details will be available soon such as whether or not she pitched a tent, or left a note.

[Malto]

For the remote areas of the AT, I strongly suggest hikers have available Guthook's AT Hiker app. (If they carry a smartphone). There is no cell signal required and can show exactly your location in relation to the AT.
It has saved my bacon twice.

I really disagree with this as a solution. I actually believe that technology such as this is dumbing down hikers and may make " lost hikers" a more common occurance. While apps such as guthooks work great when all is well, when multiple events occur that cause technology to falter then the reliance on a technology that has failed can lead to bigger problems.

Example; on a recent hike I was using an umbrella for the first time. It also blocked my vision and I walked right by a very clearly signed trail intersection. however, by knowing precisely where we were at on the map and knowing pace and time we knew quickly we were off. Tracked compass heading and purposely went to the next recognizable point on map then back tracked to the missed trail. Now, let's imaging the same scenario but without map, compass and disciplined time management. Phone is pulled out in the driving rain and something happens, it drops in a puddle etc. now you are hosed and since you haven't been tracking progress vs the map, no need as long as you are following the white marks on the trees, ie, blazes and technology make you navigationally stupid.

I have found that when go south it from a cascade of events. A lot of snow on the trail, more use of GPS, batteries are lost, climb through Avalanche area and map falls out of pocket. No single event causes much of an issue, the cascade of events do. no idea if there were a Cascade of events in this case but I suspect there likely were.

Just so folks don't think I'm being preachy, I usually hike with a map on the AT and rely on the same technologies that I caution against above. This incident really reinforces how approaches and skills that work in the good times fail when compounded with other factors. I will likely review what I carry even on the simple to follow trails such as the AT.

[saltysack]

For the remote areas of the AT, I strongly suggest hikers have available Guthook's AT Hiker app. (If they carry a smartphone). There is no cell signal required and can show exactly your location in relation to the AT.
It has saved my bacon twice.

Never used on AT but was great for JMT...rarely used guide book...


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[saltysack]

For that purpose, a cheap Timex or Casio will do as well as a Rolex.

True....hard to beat a Casio G Spot!!![emoji12]. I've had several. I do love my Suunto core watch and have been eyeballing the Garmin Fenix 3......


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[Don H]

My recollection of the intersection of the AT/Oberton stream/Railroad Rd. intersection, I camped there in 2011:

Steep drop down to the stream and steep climb up the embankment to a level spot which is Railroad Rd.
The AT takes a short (20') turn east on Railroad and then up another steep embankment. The blaze on the tree at this point is high up on the bank above Railroad and not in the normal line of sight as one would expect a blaze to be, making it easy to miss.
There were some tree limbs across Railroad Rd in the usual way to warn hikers that this is not the trail.
The point is it would be easy to miss the blaze high on the embankment above Railroad Rd, think the trail goes (trail) west and follow Railroad Rd. towards Redington.

I walked a short distance down Railroad Rd but apparently not far enough to be on Navy property since I didn't see any signs.

The topo map posted shows a short trail going off Railroad. Seems to me it would be easy to follow Railroad Rd. and pick up this other trail.

[Hangfire]

I did not know that about working w/o cell signal -- thanks! I think you can buy trail sections separately, so in hindsight, the app would have been very nice to have in New Hampshire (to help with the trail junctions), Maine (because ramifications of losing trail can be severe), and Southwestern Virginia (because of isolation, and I tended to lose the trail a lot there, especially near rhody patches).

I believe cell phones can triangulate off of satellites when cell signal is unavailable...someone could probably expand on this for us.

[MuddyWaters]

Most cell phones today have a gps engine in them, for both US and Russian satellite systems. These arent the highest powered gps devices, but they work, although you need an app to display your location. GPS requires view of sky, and doenst work well inside buildings, under tree cover, etc.

Backcountry navigator is free, and the USGS topo maps can be downloaded for sections, and have many established trail tracks on them. Loading gps waypoint files from other sites will display on them too. All free, and good in an emergency if you get off trail.

But , the best solution, is to stay found. Know your whereabouts, know where the trail is going. If you are going down and the trail is supposed to go up, thats a red flag. If you go east and the trail goes west, thats a red flag. Guidebooks are pretty good at mentioning most trail intersections, and you should be watching for them.

What is a mystery here, if she did simply wander off trail on a defined side route, is why she didnt back track. The few times ive stepped over limbs and gone the wrong way, ive discovered it in a hundred yards or so and backtracked.

[Fredt4]

I believe cell phones can triangulate off of satellites when cell signal is unavailable...someone could probably expand on this for us.

Since 2011 on Android

[Kookork]

There is a saying in medicine that says: Uncommon manifestations of common diseases is more common than common manifestations of rare diseases.

If I want to expand this saying to Mrs Geraldine's case I would say her story looks like an uncommon case of a common occurrence which is a hiker is lost. Then she panics and makes mistakes that in normal situations she wouldn't make. Wonders in an unknown route and then begins to wonder more and circles around the forest to the extent of exhaustion and decides to make a camp.

Losing the sense of direction in a forest is no fun and takes a lot of nerve to keep the cool. When you don't really know where you are it is not that much help to know where the north or south is.

Nowadays hikers can finish a 2000 miler without acquiring the knowledge and experience to handle the situation when things go wrong. Add the older age and/or bad weather and/or difficult unfamiliar train and you have a case that does not make sense in so many levels.


The most important point is how we can learn a lesson to avoid this incident to happen again in the future.

RIP Geraldine.

[Chair-man]

To me, this is one of the better articles that was written 18 months after Geraldine went missing. (https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2014/12/30/how-could-woman-just-vanish/CkjirwQF7RGnw4VkAl6TWM/story.html)

If the article is correct, she received a last text sometime Monday the 22nd in the afternoon which would have put her about half way to Spaulding Mt Lean-to.

So, my question is, if she could receive text in that location, why didn't she send a text when she became lost?

For those of you who are familiar with this area. Is there cell signal between popular Poplar Ridge and Spaulding? Is there cell signal near where she was found?

I'm assuming they found her cell phone. Does anyone know if she had a GPS app?

[Goonky]

What is a mystery here, if she did simply wander off trail on a defined side route, is why she didnt back track. The few times ive stepped over limbs and gone the wrong way, ive discovered it in a hundred yards or so and backtracked.

This is exactly my thought about the roadbed. Why not turn around? Obviously, we don't know what happened, so it's speculation to a large degree. But I really wonder if she got lost early after leaving the lean to and wandered in circles all day. I could imagine a scenario where she crossed Orberton Stream, but not at the designated crossing spot and dealt with higher water and possible got herself and her gear wet. If she had to camp with wet clothes and a wet sleeping bag, hypothermia does seem possible.

I also wondered why she went beyond the roadbed. If I'd been lost all day and finally found an old roadbed, I would have been thrilled and stayed right there. But maybe she didn't recognize it as a roadbed, that's happened to me a number of times. Sometimes those older roadbeds are really overgrown.



Nowadays hikers can finish a 2000 miler without acquiring the knowledge and experience to handle the situation when things go wrong. Add the older age and/or bad weather and/or difficult unfamiliar train and you have a case that does not make sense in so many levels.

The most important point is how we can learn a lesson to avoid this incident to happen again in the future.

RIP Geraldine.

THIS. I've been trying to get something out of this. What can I learn from this? This has been my biggest takeaway: I feel like an experienced hiker and I think Inchworm was too from everything I've read. But I'm not a woodsman - and as soon as you're off the trail - it's a whole different ballgame. In the past week since she was found, I've asked myself - if I was lost, truly lost - would I know what to do? Pitch a tent overnight safely? Sure. Get myself found again? unaided? Probably not. So today I ordered a compass and will set myself to master that skill.

Also, as any FYI for anyone interested, I have this little book which I believe is free from the Maine Dept of Inland Wildfire and Fisheries, and it's worth the read. Free PDF here: http://www.state.me.us/ifw/education/pdfs/aloneinmainewoods.pdf

Sending good thoughts and support to her family and friends. She really seemed like a neat lady.

[Deacon]

when things go bad they go bad quick and batteries die. compass and map.


Understood. For that reason I seldom use the app. , only when I need reassurance of my location. Again, my suggestion was only for the AT, not for bushes King and such.

[Don H]

[/COLOR]I could imagine a scenario where she crossed Orberton Stream, but not at the designated crossing spot and dealt with higher water and possible got herself and her gear wet. If she had to camp with wet clothes and a wet sleeping bag, hypothermia does seem possible.

I also wondered why she went beyond the roadbed. If I'd been lost all day and finally found an old roadbed, I would have been thrilled and stayed right there. But maybe she didn't recognize it as a roadbed, that's happened to me a number of times. Sometimes those older roadbeds are really overgrown.

I can't image getting off trail in the 2.7 miles between Poplar and Oberton stream. If I recall it was rather thick through there and the trail was well marked.

The crossing of Oberton stream would have been a rock hop across Monday morning with the stream at normal levels. The heavy rain didn't start until early Tuesday morning.

My 2013 AT Guide says:
"1976.2 Poplar Ridge Lean-to
1978.9 Orbeton Stream (ford)
1979.0 Woods road, NoBo: turn east on road" (emphasis mine, this is Railroad Rd.)

If the only source of information Gerry had was the AT. Guide could it be that she got to the crossing and thought she was suppose to follow the road?

As I stated in my earlier post the next blaze past the road was high up the embankment across the road and not in the normal line of sight where one would expect a blaze. I camped on Railroad Rd at the stream crossing in 2011 and actually thought the trail went east (compass south, opposite of the way Gerry apparently went). It wasn't until I went to get water from a small stream that crosses the road and goes down a water fall, then into Oberton stream did I notice the blaze and realize the trail crosses there.

[JohnHuth]

After so much time has passed, it will be near-impossible to reconstruct what happened between her last known contact and where she was found - one can only speculate. It must be of some comfort to her family to have her remains found, may she rest in peace.

As far as map+compass work - I highly recommend developing some skill and develop the habit of keeping track of location, identifying distant landmarks etc.

I accompanied my son on portions of his thru-hike. Somewhat to my horror, he shunned topographic maps to save weight and just used AWOL's guide. Hiking with him out of Gorham, I noticed from the shadows that we were hiking west. I thought "this is impossible - this is the AT and we should be hiking northeast", I got out my compass and confirmed that we were hiking west. Finally, when I got back home, I found a map and saw that the trail indeed took a turn west to hit the nearest peak. I only feel comfortable if I can update my location regularly. I mention this to encourage hikers to develop their map and compass skills.

[TexasBob]

[/COLOR]
Also, as any FYI for anyone interested, I have this little book which I believe is free from the Maine Dept of Inland Wildfire and Fisheries, and it's worth the read. Free PDF here: http://www.state.me.us/ifw/education/pdfs/aloneinmainewoods.pdf


On Google Maps satellite view there is an area that looks like an old logging area with a maze of old logging roads about 500 to 1,000 feet northeast of the area where Inchworm was found. The trail passes near this area. One possibility is that she lost the trail on Monday 7/22 and ended up wandering around that old logging area on Monday and as a result she got thoroughly confused as to her location (maybe injured as well). Then she did what we all been told to do and what the pamphlet mentioned above tells you to do which find shelter, stay put and await rescue. She set her her tent and waited.

[Brewerbob]

"Simply walking east" may not be that simple in dense woods, particularly on a cloudy day.
FL doesn't have a lot of cliffs especially considering the highest point of elevation is 354ft. As I was on paper company land, the trees are harvested every 15 yrs. The under brush can get bad but a easterly direction in that particular case was fine. 10 miles north/south wouldn't put you any further from the road.

[Heliotrope]

I can't image getting off trail in the 2.7 miles between Poplar and Oberton stream. If I recall it was rather thick through there and the trail was well marked.

The crossing of Oberton stream would have been a rock hop across Monday morning with the stream at normal levels. The heavy rain didn't start until early Tuesday morning.

My 2013 AT Guide says:
"1976.2 Poplar Ridge Lean-to
1978.9 Orbeton Stream (ford)
1979.0 Woods road, NoBo: turn east on road" (emphasis mine, this is Railroad Rd.)

If the only source of information Gerry had was the AT. Guide could it be that she got to the crossing and thought she was suppose to follow the road?

As I stated in my earlier post the next blaze past the road was high up the embankment across the road and not in the normal line of sight where one would expect a blaze. I camped on Railroad Rd at the stream crossing in 2011 and actually thought the trail went east (compass south, opposite of the way Gerry apparently went). It wasn't until I went to get water from a small stream that crosses the road and goes down a water fall, then into Oberton stream did I notice the blaze and realize the trail crosses there.

Where the AT intersects roads and other trails is where I have had the most trouble in the past. This sounds like a potentially confusing area. That she got lost first makes the most sense.

It is amazing that I am constantly encountering lost hikers in Acadia National park. Which is a very small area with very well marked trails. I have found folks miles off course. I met a couple last weekend that were sure they were somewhere else on the map they had with them. Even on the carriage roads I have found people lost. It is a network of graded dirt roads with clear signs at every junction saying which way to town. Two weeks ago I met three young women who were hysterical and crying because they had no idea where they were and to get where i found them they passed a sign pointing the way to trailhead parking area.




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[Water Rat]

[/COLOR]This is exactly my thought about the roadbed. Why not turn around? Obviously, we don't know what happened, so it's speculation to a large degree. But I really wonder if she got lost early after leaving the lean to and wandered in circles all day. I could imagine a scenario where she crossed Orberton Stream, but not at the designated crossing spot and dealt with higher water and possible got herself and her gear wet. If she had to camp with wet clothes and a wet sleeping bag, hypothermia does seem possible.

I also wondered why she went beyond the roadbed. If I'd been lost all day and finally found an old roadbed, I would have been thrilled and stayed right there. But maybe she didn't recognize it as a roadbed, that's happened to me a number of times. Sometimes those older roadbeds are really overgrown.



THIS. I've been trying to get something out of this. What can I learn from this? This has been my biggest takeaway: I feel like an experienced hiker and I think Inchworm was too from everything I've read. But I'm not a woodsman - and as soon as you're off the trail - it's a whole different ballgame. In the past week since she was found, I've asked myself - if I was lost, truly lost - would I know what to do? Pitch a tent overnight safely? Sure. Get myself found again? unaided? Probably not. So today I ordered a compass and will set myself to master that skill.

Also, as any FYI for anyone interested, I have this little book which I believe is free from the Maine Dept of Inland Wildfire and Fisheries, and it's worth the read. Free PDF here: http://www.state.me.us/ifw/education/pdfs/aloneinmainewoods.pdf

Sending good thoughts and support to her family and friends. She really seemed like a neat lady.

I didn't realize there Maine IWAF had such a book! Thanks for the link!

While my outdoor skills were firmly ingrained at a very early age (thanks, Grandma & Grandpa!), it is never a bad idea to read through a pamphlet such as this and take a mini refresher course. It only takes a few minutes and could very easily save a life in a bad situation. As my gear changes (boy, it has changed over the years!) I like to review my gear in terms of how to use it in the event of an emergency.

For example, tent poles used to be more substantial and used to be better for splints, etc. Now, I carry trekking poles that can take their place, or be used as a cane. If I am going to go lighter in weight, my gear still has to be useful if I put myself in a situation where help isn't going to show up and rescue my butt. Yes, the AT is heavily traveled, but stuff happens... Even when taking a hike on a well groomed trail. Knowledge weighs nothing to carry and if I have mentally prepared myself to get out of a situation, that increases my odds.

Map and compass weigh hardly anything to carry and ditching one snack will make up for their weight. Gadgets are awesome and make life easy - I personally love the Guthook apps for looking stuff up real fast. Do I rely on them? Nope. I carry map & compass. If ever my gut says "Something isn't right..." I listen to that feeling, stop, and do a consultation. Knowing what to do and feeling confident in my ability eliminates the natural reaction to panic/worry. This saves time, energy, and sets me up to productively work toward getting myself out of the situation.

Yes, it is just walking...on a path that is pretty well marked (in most areas). It is too easy to become complacent and think, "This is the AT and someone will come along." But, stuff happens. Inchworm's death is a reminder of that and we can learn from this and better our skills, so that more instances like this do not occur. I don't know Inchworm, but she was a nurse and they are dedicated toward helping save lives. It seems to me that she would want us to learn from from her death.

No matter how much you know, it is never a bad idea to refresh your knowledge. If you don't know what to do if you lose the trail, take this as a reminder to learn what to do. Even simply reading that PDF (if you don't take any other steps to improve your knowledge base) could make you stop and think during those first few critical moments when you realize you are not where you should be. That can make all the difference in getting back to a safe place.

[MuddyWaters]

If she did wander off trail, and stay lost, its a heartwrenching shame.
All she would have had to do is go downhill until hit orbeton stream. Then downhill to redington pond and a road, or uphillback to AT .

Maps are good. Whatever form they be in.

[Lone Wolf]

guys like me and baltimore jack always carry maps

[Brewerbob]

You lose an airplane when an inexperienced flight crew gets lost, makes mistakes in procedures for instrument flight landings, flies outside the suggested missed approach boundaries given local terrain, then flies into a mountain having again, not followed instructions for when and how low to start a decent. Boom into a mountain.

The mountain was the lower east slopes of Smarts Mt., which as BTW the AT goes right over, so maybe a 1/2 mile away. The plane crashed in winter in a blow down area, then got covered in snow, and it took a surveyor to find.

Snow melts tho. How long was that plane missing? If your tail number doesn't show up in Mexico on a drug run, I assume you went down. That being the case you may very well be good and dead but I'm still going to go looking for you come spring time.:confused:

[Brewerbob]

Hey!!! Careful there. When I bought mine 20 years ago used I swore I am (and have) wearing that expensive bastard everywhere until I died then my wife's new boy friend could wear it! <laughing>

ROLEX

I've never even touched a Rolex but I feel certain I can break it. Pagers and cell phones were a great invention for time keeping if nothing else. If I can't break the watch, I'll break the band.


This seems right to me. The last time I was actually "lost" was on the AT in NY (I'm ashamed to admit), about five years ago. And I ended up walking a couple of miles in the wrong direction before I figured out where I was. Admittedly, not the same kind of terrain (by a long shot). But 3000 feet off trail is just a little over half a mile, very easy to do, especially in rainy conditions and when one is maybe not an experienced navigator.
Half a mile on another trail (or the same trail in the wrong direction) is easy to do. 1/2 a mile on a deer trail would be tough not knowing you're lost. But getting further lost trying to get unlost is how most search and rescues read.



Didn't a female someone call Whitewolf inn and say she wasn't going to meet her husband when she was expected? Cell service there sucks, so I doubt it was Mrs Largo who called. I still suspect foul play.
A fellow thru hiker that was moving on ahead? She was wearing a heavier than usual pack so might have spent an extra shelter night somewhere along the way.

I dunno; just speculating on a legit reason.


During the press conference I thought I overheard one of the reporters asking about a tent.

http://www.brentwoodhomepage.com/missing-womans-tent-found-in-rugged-remote-navy-training-area-cms-23344#.ViGqQSuNAnI

Well that sucks. Chances are she knew she was in trouble and was waiting out the search party. 100 yrds left or right and she would have been medivac'ed out with a broken ___ (or whatever).


Wow that's some details well omitted. Wonder what shape the tent was inI'd be interested in that too. Not from a crime scene standpoint but from a durability stand point. The company would never (and should never) use it for marketing but you know that is one bad ass tent if it is still up and not torn after 2+ yrs.


Yes Adam dodged the answer whether she was in her tent or not. He deflected the question by saying it has been more than two years and gear has been out in the weather and they would have to examine all the items to determine blah blah blah.

Somehow the word was released that she was found in her sleeping bag as that was what was announced during BSP's annual fall meeting today. I haven't seen that detail anywhere and wonder if it was one of those early erroneous statements made in an investigation.

If you've ever seen a tent that's been left to weather, I can understand how it might not be possible to ascertain if it was indeed set up and intact at one point. However it's either out and tattered or still somewhat balled up in a stuff sack. Same w a sleeping bag. Wish I knew one of those folks in the photo who's looking down at the ground/found scene. This would be good information to know.
I would assume animals going after the body would tear up the tent regardless of weather-wind doing its thing. For the same reason, the sleeping bag may be torn up (assuming she was in not on it). Sleeping bag and a tent inside a backpack isn't going to be all pawed up unless food was packed below it.


From this point, she could have died peacefully in her sleep from causes bourne of distress, or just of unforced natural causes. Or somehow else. Up to the M.E. to look it over and see.
I dunno about this one. While no one wants to die of a heart attack, it sounds even worse when cheated like this. I just busted my ass getting up/down that last stretch. I've got enough time to set up my tent and even spread out my sleeping bag and get in it. After the "rest", I die in my bag??? Screw that!!! I'd rather fall over dead on the trail with backpack and boots still on if I gotta go out like that.


Finally, looking at Google Earth, her remains were found near some sort of road cut (I'm guessing this is the route taken by the dog teams that just missed her). If she camped out and awoke without incident, rather than dying apparently in her sleeping bag in her tent, she had about a mile and a half of pretty easily findable woods road, generally north eastward, through fairly level terrain, to an open dirt road which would've gotten her to the A.T. crossing between Crocker and Sugarloaf. She very well could've been aiming to get to that road walk and, if in distress, to get a ride to that crossing or just to hoof it herself. A lot easier than the A.T. she'd have avoided. The routing I would postulate would be AT to the railroad corridor, NNW a mile or so, shooting more northerly on what may be a woods road on a rough bushwhack, finding more open woods near where her remains were found, camping out there just a bit off a nearby woods road she was walking.

Does all that hold up tho? I haven't looked thru the AWOL in awhile (mine is 2011?). I don't remember if the railroad and all of that would be on there. I know the road crossing are but railroads? The AWOL doesn't tell you where the roads go. Now if she has GPS signal then she could "forge" her own way like that.


If she had chest pain and was seeking to minimize the burden on her heart, she might've taken the low route deliberately as I suggest.

If this is the case, you're going to find my butt sitting on a rock on the trail itself. If I'm feeling that beat and it's already raining and getting dark, you're likely to find my tent fairly close if not on the trail. Leave no trace and all of that jazz goes out the window with chest pains.

For someone that doesn't camp between shelters, she damn sure isn't going to wander off a 1/2 a mile or 1 1/2 miles (depending on unit of measure) on purpose and stealth camp. If sticking to shelters is her MO, she wouldn't leave the trail already injured either. You may go a day or 2 ON the trail before someone comes along but even a broken leg isn't going to kill you that fast (assuming you didn't cut a vein). If hurt stick to the trail even in the dead of winter.


If you got in Google Earth and draw a straight line perpendicular from the A.T. to the recovery site, as I have, it measures about 1.3 miles. If someone walked a curvy path from the A.T., via the Railroad track, then along paths from the said track to her last campsite, it's probably 3000 yards.

It's possible the spokesperson misspoke in the press conference, and the journalists who wrote the two articles I linked double checked to confirm the correct distance.
Um, ... 3000 yards is a nautical mile and a half. There's not a lot of difference between 1.3 statue miles and 1.5 nautical miles. The delta is a 1/3rd of a mile.

I see later you've mapped it and converted it all but that doesn't leave a lot of "wandering" distance.


This does happen a lot and it's happened here, not sure who made the mistake yet, but I find it irritating how people seem to use feet/yards/meters interchangeably -- yes, even when people use yards and meters interchangeably bugs the hell out of me:mad:

Feet and meters are exactly the same. NASA even proved it with ... oh wait, that didn't end very well either.:cool:

Yards and meters are close enough in my book that it doesn't irk me. Working in manufacturing, it's thousands and mils that irks me.



perhaps worth noting is that railroad in the direction of the sere facility is not noted on the hiking maps, so the intersection you encounter there does not match what you are expecting, i can see how that might contribute to someone getting lost, wandering up railroad road thinking it was the AT and then stumble upon an informal path up mt redington.
If the rails are still there, kinda hard to miss that. If the rails are gone and the ties are still there I would like to assume even a casual hiker would notice the difference. You may still choose to hike it but if not addled then it's on purpose.



> strangle someone and the skeleton wouldn't show it

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=140062
Strangle an elderly person and the odds are on the order of 40% that the skeleton will show something.

Unfortunately, the lack of any such fractures are not proof that an elderly person WASN'T strangled, so it won't be ruled out. I have little doubt but that the people who insist that she was murdered will state, "The lack of any evidence of foul play SUPPORTS my viewpoint!"

Yep, 40% showing means the majority don't. Add in animals chewing on a skeleton, etc. and that bone might be missing altogether. I'm doubting she ran into foul play but a stabbing of the gut would also kill you and not leave skeletal evidence.


Thanks for mentioning the Learjet crash buzzard. Similar terrain, location, and quite frankly circumstances as Inchworm from a search perspective. That one reference, along with many others one could reference, is the trump card to any and all of the defeatist views to not search or stop searching. Just because 'professionals' have tried doesn't mean that a person(s) can't be found. I can be very difficult to find things lost in the wilderness. Never give up.
Airplanes tend to leave bigger holes and debris paths than people. I don't know if a blow down is a help or hindrance tho. A huge commercial plane with leave a trail that itself can be found. A little tiny prop could be under the trees.

A helo crisscrossing should be able to find a prop in a blowdown tho.

[rafe]

One of those plane crashes near Hanover NH is mentioned in Bryson's book (A Walk In The Woods) -- by way of demonstrating how dense New England woods can be, and how stuff can be lost there rather easily.

Look at the tracks of the searches made for Geraldine and how close they came to her position -- more than once. And yet still missed seeing her.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Snow melts tho. How long was that plane missing? If your tail number doesn't show up in Mexico on a drug run, I assume you went down. That being the case you may very well be good and dead but I'm still going to go looking for you come spring time.:confused:The approximate location and its anticipated flight path were pretty well known, based upon the last radar sightings and communication with the tower at LEB regarding executing the missed approach, but there were navigational errors made so pinpointing the flight path and/or location was not definite. This even led to some conspiracy theories [sound familiar?] that the flight crew had stolen the aircraft. But the aircraft wreckage was ultimately found within the confines of the original search area. Those not familiar with the nature of the terrain in NH and other mountainous forest areas often find it difficult to understand why searches aren't 100% successful. It's just the nature of the terrain. It is VERY DIFFICULT to find lost people and even airplanes up here. Here's the very short Wiki on the subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_New_Hampshire_Learjet_crash , a more in depth article on the crash and general nature of finding crash sites in the woods of NH http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1999-12-12/topic/9912160394_1_learjet-woods-search-in-new , and a much more detailed compilation of what happened in this particular accident, including the NTSB narrative, http://www.meyette.us/Learjet.htm

[Driver8]

[/COLOR]This is exactly my thought about the roadbed. Why not turn around? Obviously, we don't know what happened, so it's speculation to a large degree. But I really wonder if she got lost early after leaving the lean to and wandered in circles all day.

I think this is unlikely. One seemingly established fact is that she was a relatively slow hiker. Departing from Poplar shelter area, it would be about three miles to the railroad bed, and, if she hiked more or less directly to where she ended up, some of it a bit bushwhacky, she would've put in about 5 miles for the day. Slow even for her, I gather, but not so slow given that bushwhacking was part of the way.

One thing I don't think much is known publicly about her is how were her navigation skills? It's well known she was a creature of habit, likely, if she had her druthers, absent some crisis, to stay on trail, per Bluebearee and others. But how likely was she to get lost, and how skilled would she have been at getting unlost? Did she know she was off the AT? If so, when did she come to know this? Did she try to turn back? Was she, as I've suggested is possible, deliberately taking a lower route, whether to avoid cold, wet weather or due to some health issue such as cardiac distress?

At a certain point, it becomes moot. The poor dear passed on, and her family and friends mourn, and most all of us in the hiking community are saddened. The M.E.'s office will make what they can of the evidence, and we likely will never know what happened, other than the ultimate result.

[4eyedbuzzard]

One of those plane crashes near Hanover NH is mentioned in Bryson's book (A Walk In The Woods) -- by way of demonstrating how dense New England woods can be, and how stuff can be lost there rather easily.

Look at the tracks of the searches made for Geraldine and how close they came to her position -- more than once. And yet still missed seeing her.Although I have recently moved away from the area, I lived in northern NH for almost 20 years, and hiked many of the trails in WMNF, Pemi Wilderness, etc. One could easily get lost behind my house and never, EVER, be found. No one goes there. The uninhabited areas are so vast, so thick, and the terrain so difficult that 99.99% of it isn't traveled by humans. Trails cut through these areas, but if there were a body even a few feet off the trail, you likely wouldn't notice it. Get more than 10 to 20 feet in off the trail, and you might as well be on another planet as far as anyone finding anything goes.

[Brewerbob]

[/COLOR]THIS. I've been trying to get something out of this. What can I learn from this? This has been my biggest takeaway: I feel like an experienced hiker and I think Inchworm was too from everything I've read. But I'm not a woodsman - and as soon as you're off the trail - it's a whole different ballgame. In the past week since she was found, I've asked myself - if I was lost, truly lost - would I know what to do? Pitch a tent overnight safely? Sure. Get myself found again? unaided? Probably not. So today I ordered a compass and will set myself to master that skill.

With a map and compass, uninjured? Sure. Lost in a really remote location and out of food? Maybe not so much. I'd like to take a survival class of some sort. I know Hen of the Woods and Chicken of the Woods, wild onions are easy to spot but I don't know if I'd know what a huckleberry is if you bounced one off my forehead.

[Brewerbob]

I really disagree with this as a solution. I actually believe that technology such as this is dumbing down hikers and may make " lost hikers" a more common occurance. While apps such as guthooks work great when all is well, when multiple events occur that cause technology to falter then the reliance on a technology that has failed can lead to bigger problems.

Example; on a recent hike I was using an umbrella for the first time. It also blocked my vision and I walked right by a very clearly signed trail intersection. however, by knowing precisely where we were at on the map and knowing pace and time we knew quickly we were off. Tracked compass heading and purposely went to the next recognizable point on map then back tracked to the missed trail. Now, let's imaging the same scenario but without map, compass and disciplined time management. Phone is pulled out in the driving rain and something happens, it drops in a puddle etc. now you are hosed and since you haven't been tracking progress vs the map, no need as long as you are following the white marks on the trees, ie, blazes and technology make you navigationally stupid.

I have found that when go south it from a cascade of events. A lot of snow on the trail, more use of GPS, batteries are lost, climb through Avalanche area and map falls out of pocket. No single event causes much of an issue, the cascade of events do. no idea if there were a Cascade of events in this case but I suspect there likely were.

Just so folks don't think I'm being preachy, I usually hike with a map on the AT and rely on the same technologies that I caution against above. This incident really reinforces how approaches and skills that work in the good times fail when compounded with other factors. I will likely review what I carry even on the simple to follow trails such as the AT.

This is why I like redundancy. Not multiple GPS units but a GSP unit, smart phone, and finally a paper map & compass.


Steep drop down to the stream and steep climb up the embankment to a level spot which is Railroad Rd.
The AT takes a short (20') turn east on Railroad and then up another steep embankment. The blaze on the tree at this point is high up on the bank above Railroad and not in the normal line of sight as one would expect a blaze to be, making it easy to miss.
There were some tree limbs across Railroad Rd in the usual way to warn hikers that this is not the trail.

I hate when trails follow roads. Even crossing roads. Some go straight across and you have to be blind to miss them. Others cross the road but not for 50 ft further up or down the road. The ATC (or someone) should put some serious money into signage. There are far better things to spend tax money on than all the pork that DC is already buying.


After so much time has passed, it will be near-impossible to reconstruct what happened between her last known contact and where she was found - one can only speculate. It must be of some comfort to her family to have her remains found, may she rest in peace.

CSI Maine can go in there and find the 37 broken pine needles that she stepped on while going the wrong way. Her left shoe had a tiny indent that broke the needles in a particular fashion. Happens on TV all the time so (like the internet) it must be true, right?

[rafe]

Although I have recently moved away from the area, I lived in northern NH for almost 20 years, and hiked many of the trails in WMNF, Pemi Wilderness, etc. One could easily get lost behind my house and never, EVER, be found. No one goes there. The uninhabited areas are so vast, so thick, and the terrain so difficult that 99.99% of it isn't traveled by humans. Trails cut through these areas, but if there were a body even a few feet off the trail, you likely wouldn't notice it. Get more than 10 to 20 feet in off the trail, and you might as well be on another planet as far as anyone finding anything goes.


Exactly the point I've been trying to make, repeatedly.

[Brewerbob]

The white birches were still bent from an ice stormhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1999-12-12/topic/9912160394_1_learjet-woods-search-in-new/2#) after the plane had crashed, leaving the wreckage invisible from the air.Having never seen a plane crash in person, this is the part I have trouble with. Trees are supposed to break and fall over when airplanes run into them. Again with a tiny prop plane (this one isn't that much bigger), that doesn't happen so much.

[Brewerbob]

Although I have recently moved away from the area, I lived in northern NH for almost 20 years, and hiked many of the trails in WMNF, Pemi Wilderness, etc. One could easily get lost behind my house and never, EVER, be found. No one goes there. The uninhabited areas are so vast, so thick, and the terrain so difficult that 99.99% of it isn't traveled by humans. Trails cut through these areas, but if there were a body even a few feet off the trail, you likely wouldn't notice it. Get more than 10 to 20 feet in off the trail, and you might as well be on another planet as far as anyone finding anything goes.

Sounds great and you traded it for DFW???

[Mags]

I've mentioned this similar story before here in Colorado.
http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2014/08/19/bones-of-missing-woman-discovered-in-wilderness/14295171/

This is a highly trafficked wilderness area where the trailheads are only 1 to 1.5 hrs from the Denver metro area. I suspect this CO wilderness area has much more use than the area on the AT in Maine where Inchworm was recovered.

Though the area in question is wooded by western standards, it is no where as thick as Maine.

If there are any wild areas left back East, is in the "north country" of far upstate New York to Maine.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Having never seen a plane crash in person, this is the part I have trouble with. Trees are supposed to break and fall over when airplanes run into them. Again with a tiny prop plane (this one isn't that much bigger), that doesn't happen so much.Real world, trees are amazingly strong, and airplanes incredibly fragile by comparison. Planes get ripped apart into pieces when they hit stuff. Especially small planes, which weigh less than an automobile, and don't survive impacts nearly as intact. They are basically a thick soda can with wings. Note what happens when a much more solidly built car hits a good size tree. The tree, while bruised, usually survives. I know, such a comforting thought to have the next time you are flying through the air at 500 mph in a flimsy aluminum tube.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Sounds great and you traded it for DFW???Sigh, yeah, DFW sucks by comparison. But my employer made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Exactly the point I've been trying to make, repeatedly.Yeah, just trying to reinforce yours, mine, and other's comments regarding the difference in the reality of searching and finding someone in a remote area vs. public perception of searches in much more constrained and more easily searched areas.

[Brewerbob]

Real world, trees are amazingly strong, and airplanes incredibly fragile by comparison. Planes get ripped apart into pieces when they hit stuff. Especially small planes, which weigh less than an automobile, and don't survive impacts nearly as intact. They are basically a thick soda can with wings. Note what happens when a much more solidly built car hits a good size tree. The tree, while bruised, usually survives. I know, such a comforting thought to have the next time you are flying through the air at 500 mph in a flimsy aluminum tube.

Yeah, cloth wrapped balsa wood for the tiny (early) guys. The big guys have the "advantage" of 500mph. What they lack in mass they make up for in speed. At least hitting the ground at 500 mph isn't going to hurt for very long.

The FAA really should require locators on every plane. Same should be done with ships. Stuff shouldn't go accidentally missing these days.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Yeah, cloth wrapped balsa wood for the tiny (early) guys. The big guys have the "advantage" of 500mph. What they lack in mass they make up for in speed. At least hitting the ground at 500 mph isn't going to hurt for very long.

The FAA really should require locators on every plane. Same should be done with ships. Stuff shouldn't go accidentally missing these days.It's all about the economics, cost vs. benefit, etc. There's no economic advantage in spending incredible amounts of money to solve what is statistically a very small problem.

[Brewerbob]

Sigh, yeah, DFW sucks by comparison. But my employer made me an offer I couldn't refuse.
Gets you out of the snow up to your eyeballs but way too damn hot.

[Brewerbob]

It's all about the economics, cost vs. benefit, etc. There's no economic advantage in spending incredible amounts of money to solve what is statistically a very small problem.

One of the articles mentioned a beacon costing $1500 per unit. In the cost of even a small plane, that's next to nothing. As it's FAA and government of course that's 5x higher than it needs to be. Hell you can buy a GPS tracker for your car for less than $150.

[MuddyWaters]

Epirbs are simple on boats. Building them to withstand substantial impacts like an aircraft may have, isnt.

[Brewerbob]

Epirbs are simple on boats. Building them to withstand substantial impacts like an aircraft may have, isnt.Refresh rate of every 15 seconds.

600mph * 15seconds = 1/4 mile

How big did you say the search area was for the Lear? As he's on approach, he's doing maybe 200mph.

[Brewerbob]

Epirbs are simple on boats. Building them to withstand substantial impacts like an aircraft may have, isnt.It doesn't have to survive an impact. I just need to know where it was when it quit transmitting.

[Don H]

if there were a body even a few feet off the trail, you likely wouldn't notice it. Get more than 10 to 20 feet in off the trail, and you might as well be on another planet as far as anyone finding anything goes.


The entire NoBo class of 2011 walked within 100 yards of a deceased hiker in Swatara S.P. in PA. His remains were found in his tent, he had fallen from a ledge and broke both legs. I spoke with the ranger who answered the "abandoned camp" complaint and found the body. He had been missing for 2 years and was found in late August.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Brewerbob, the Learjet accident, along with other incidents, actually led to the requirement for better ELT's in small commercial aircraft like the Learjet that crashed in NH. But, nothing is foolproof as witnessed in the search for hiker Kate Matrosova earlier this year, whose PLB signal directed rescuers to several errant locations. Add that such technology is expensive to purchase, install, maintain, and monitor, especially on a large geographic scale. None of this stuff will ever be foolproof. Batteries go dead, circuits fail, etc. In the end, we as a society agree that there is level of risk that we don't guard against because it's just too damned expensive to do so. And even the technology that's available has limitations http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emerbcns.html

[Traveler]

Yeah, cloth wrapped balsa wood for the tiny (early) guys. The big guys have the "advantage" of 500mph. What they lack in mass they make up for in speed. At least hitting the ground at 500 mph isn't going to hurt for very long.

The FAA really should require locators on every plane. Same should be done with ships. Stuff shouldn't go accidentally missing these days.

An ELT (emergency location transmitter) is required equipment on all commercial and private aircraft. These devices are pretty rugged and generally work well, until they don't. They can suffer complete destruction in a crash, depending on how the aircraft impacts the ground. In some instances controlled flight into terrain puts the aircraft into a position the device is completely destroyed and the footprint of the crash is inside its own profile. They can be very difficult to find. It took over a year to find Steve Fossetts plane in the Nevada desert and that had hundreds of sorties along with thousands of man-hours on the ground to find that airplane. When it was found it was still pretty much out in the open, but had slid down the side of a mountain taking a lot of talus and rock with it that camouflaged it.