Need Help w/ Zelph (Modified) Starlyte

[donthaveoneyet]

You'd think this would be about the simplest thing in the word to use, but apparently I'm just dumb enough to mess it up. Below is a set up I rigged up, mainly to test it out and assess what size pot stand and windscreen would work best. Pot is a Toaks 1300. Hardware cloth pot stand is about 2 1/4, windscreen is about 3 1/2. The stove is 1 inch tall. About 3-4 mins into a boil, I get flames swirling around inside so much it actually burns the surface it's sitting on (a piece of plywood in this case... prompting yells from upstairs along the lines of "are you trying to burn the f-ing house down!?").

What am I doing wrong?

The Caldera system, which I have seen work with the Modified Starlyte, has holes around the top of the windscreen/pot stand. Should I put some holes in the windscreen? Is the windscreen to close to the pot? I'm baffled. Any help would be appreciated.

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[4eyedbuzzard]

Yeah, I've set the picnic table at my house on fire with both the Starlyte and Fancyfeast stoves. A close fitting windscreen and wide pot reflects a lot of heat back at the stove and table - but this close fit is also what increases heat transfer efficiency. As the level of alcohol gets lower and lower the stove and area around it heats up rapidly, apparently above 451°F. Future testing on the picnic table was all done on an old cookie sheet as a result. I don't know if there's an easy fix. Some aluminum foil underneath helps, but you can still char the wood through the foil. It's another reason I've kind of given up on alky stoves. BTW, if you look at picnic tables and shelter floors on the AT, you'll see lots of burn marks from alky stoves. Not that this didn't happen years ago with Whisperlites as well . . .

[Franco]

Yes I do think that your windscreen is too close to the pot.
Try opening it up so that you have a gap about an inch or so wide and see what happens.

[Sandy of PA]

I use a disk made out of an aluminum pie pan under the stove to reflect heat up. Never saw any marks from using the stove. Also would not be testing stoves in the house!

[donthaveoneyet]

I use a disk made out of an aluminum pie pan under the stove to reflect heat up. Never saw any marks from using the stove. Also would not be testing stoves in the house!

You expect me to go outside? What are you, nuts?

[Odd Man Out]

If you have flames swirling around I think you need better air flow. The wind screen should be like a chimney with air flow drawing heat up to the pot. Also having the pot stand tall enough. What I did was to make a pot stand that was too tall and do a boil test with no wind screen. I then cut off 1/2 inch and tested again. Repeat until you find the optimum stand height. Also if that is 1/2" hardware cloth you can cut the weight by trimming wires to make one inch squares.

As for air flow, I would guess you need more air intakes. I have a geeling that many systems are air starved but havent tested this thoroughly. But also i dont recall ever seeing a good investigation of this parameter in stove systers. What I'd did was to prop the wind screen up on some boards so i had 1/2" gap around the bottom (or more). This gave a good air flow and faster burn times. This became the benchmark for adequate air intakes. I then kept punching more holes until the boil tests were comparable to the benchmark test.

[donthaveoneyet]

Thanks, all, these are very helpful comments. I will work on revising the windscreen/air flow, as well as stand height.

[BirdBrain]

There should be about a 4 to 1 exhaust to intake ratio. When there is a problem, many assume it is an intake issue. That is normally not the problem. Most builders provide too much intake. I provide very little. My system shows zero evidence of usage after many months of use.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/111452-Which-stove-to-build?p=1972199&viewfull=1#post1972199

If there is any constriction, do not increase the intake size. Doing so will force the flame to seek the intakes. If there is no constriction, you will not have an optimized system. I do not see an obvious problem looking at your system. Make sure you use the proper fuel (methanol or methanol ethanol mix) and that the stove to pot gap is greater than 1". High ethanol content will overheat a system. Isopropyl should not be used.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/111452-Which-stove-to-build?p=1972459&viewfull=1#post1972459

Make sure your stove does not have excessive thermal feedback. Most stoves do. I do not know if your stove does. I have never tested your stove.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTr4kHkllzM

[atraildreamer]

You expect me to go outside? What are you, nuts?

Try your testing in the kitchen sink...you'll have a handy source of water
to put out any resulting conflagrations! :eek: :banana


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[Odd Man Out]

I stand corrected. BB has done a good analysis of air flow. BB's system uses a cone so it is relatively easy for him to calculate the area of the air inlet and outlet openings. From the picture on the OP, his system is the same as mine (cylinder with opening around the top). From the picture, I will estimate his opening to be about 1/4" (which is what I aim for). His pot has a diameter of 1300 mm. If he has a 1/4" gap all the way around, this gives him 4.22 square inches of air outlet surface area. Let's assume he has a 1/4" hole punch to make is inlets (again, same as mine). Each inlet hole is then 0.049 sq". Using the 4/1 rule, he would need at least inlet 22 holes and from the picture, it looks like he only has 16. If his gap is just slightly larger than 1/4", he would need even more inlets. Fortunately the test is very easy to do. Just prop the windsreen up on something (chopsticks or similar sticks will work) so there is a gap all the way around the bottom and see if this improves air flow. With good airflow, most the heat will be going up and I would think thermal feedback would not be much of a problem. The Starlyte is basically just a big tea light stove - no mechanism designed for thermal feedback and it tends to loose power with time.

I always use a heat shield on the bottom of my systems as already suggested. Not sure how much heat it reflects up, but I feel good about protecting the picnic tables and ground. It also gives a nice even surface to work on. I put a circular dent in the middle of mine so the stove sets perfectly centered and doesn't slide around if bumped. Since this stove requires the fuel in the reservoir to get hot, I might also consider using a piece of insulation under the stove to prevent thermal drain to the ground (not necessary with eCHS stoves). Along with good air flow, this should give very consistent performance. Carbon felt works, but is thick and may raise the stove too high. I have also used a thin circle of styrofoam wrapped in Al foil. You could also make the entire base out of foil wrapped foam (I've done that too). I cut my bases to be the same size as the interior diameter of the pot for convenient storage.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Try your testing in the kitchen sink...you'll have a handy source of water
to put out any resulting conflagrations! :eek: :banana


32361Ah, Mrs. Buzzard is cooking bacon again . . .

[BirdBrain]

It should be noted that 4:1 exhaust to intake is a lab ideal. In the field, turbulence from wind and uneven surfaces will push lab ideals into the world of reality. In general, starving intakes is more forgiving than staving exhaust. For instance, if your system is at a 5:1 ratio, the system will remain somewhat balanced because the velocity of intake will increase to offset the imbalance. Air flow in an "open" system (not using a cone) in the field will create much more turbulence and unpredictable airflow than a 5:1 ratio will create in a closed system (I use the terms "closed" and "open" very loosely here). Big trouble arises when exhaust to intake approaches 1:1 in a closed system. I can't speak with much authority to air flow in an open system. Such observations may be ignorant conclusions drawn from inspection. All of my testing started with the premise that I must define my environment. That meant building a cone from the start. An open system provides more variables than I was willing to accept. Very early on, I provided way too much intake. This error overheated my cone and created the discoloration so commonly seen in cones. Coincidentally, it was an observation made by OMO that made me settle on the 4:1 ratio.

[donthaveoneyet]

Thanks. Very interesting. So just now I ran the Starlyte with no windscreen, using two different pot stands (hardware cloth, 1/4 kind). One has the pot about 1 3/8 off the top of the stove, the other 2 inches. Both got boils at about 11 minutes, no issues with the flame-up or "feedback". I then put a shorter windscreen around it (barely higher than the 1 3/8 inch pot stand, so just above the bottom of the pot), with a good inch all the way around the pot, and got a 10 min boil time, again no issues. So improving.

Question - if I set up a rig with the pot stand holding the pot at about 1 3/4 inches above the stove, and a windscreen with sufficient distance around the pot for exhaust (say, 1 inch or so?), what do you think is the optimal height for the windscreen? I would like to make the short, just barely above the bottom of the pot (so I can store it more easily). And I assume that will serve the windscreen function ok. But would higher provide better heat retention and boil times (I guess I can just try different sizes, but don't want to waste a lot of flashing...)?

[Odd Man Out]

I agree that that the tall wind screen will help in heat retention, but I appreciate wanting to be able to store it inside the pot. I always make my windscreen as tall as possible but still just able to fit inside the pot. This is one reason I picked a pot that has a 1:1 height to diameter ratio. That ratio seems to give good base diameter (for good heat transfer) while allowing a tall enough pot for a wind screen that can come a bit higher up the side of the pot.

[donthaveoneyet]

Well, I'm getting closer. Using a hardware cloth pot stand that puts the pot 1 1/4 inches above the top of the Starlyte, and a windscreen that comes to maybe 1/4 inch above the bottom of the pot, and leaves 3/4 of an inch or so around the pot, with air holes every one inch, I got a roiling boil in under 9 minutes, and no ... whatever you call it when the flames fill the space or go back down and burn the surface under the stove.

One question if anyone is still reading this - the hardware cloth turns bright red from the heat. These experiments are the first time I've used hardware cloth to make a pot stand, so it's new to me (and it is galvanized). Seems to look ok when it cools, but should I be concerned about this, or about longevity of the pot stand?

I plan to make a slightly taller windscreen tonight and see if that improves it any, but I'm ok with 9 mins to boil if that's where I end up. Just still a little ... less than satisfied at all the fidgeting this seems to require.

[donthaveoneyet]

Sorry, I meant to post a pic of the rig (albeit not a good one)....

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[4eyedbuzzard]

...

One question if anyone is still reading this - the hardware cloth turns bright red from the heat. These experiments are the first time I've used hardware cloth to make a pot stand, so it's new to me (and it is galvanized). Seems to look ok when it cools, but should I be concerned about this, or about longevity of the pot stand? The wire's metallurgy changes a bit after the first time it's heated cherry red and the zinc based galvanizing coating burns off. The wire is then subject to corrosion (rust). Ultimately the wire will then tend to fail mechanically at some point, but general not catastrophically and replacement is pretty cheap. There is a very minor issue with fumes burning off the first time it is heated while the zinc coating (possibly with trace amounts of lead) is being burned off. But not enough to warrant a health concern due to the very small size of the screen.


I plan to make a slightly taller windscreen tonight and see if that improves it any, but I'm ok with 9 mins to boil if that's where I end up. Just still a little ... less than satisfied at all the fidgeting this seems to require.9 minutes to true boil is pretty much my experience as well. Have you tried it outside it in a 10 or 15 or even 20 mph wind yet? Add swirling and/or gusting wind for more of a challenge.

[donthaveoneyet]

9 minutes to true boil is pretty much my experience as well. Have you tried it outside it in a 10 or 15 or even 20 mph wind yet? Add swirling and/or gusting wind for more of a challenge.

Not yet. I've been using a Clik-Stand and Trangia for several years, and it is a reliable setup. I started looking at these other alcohol stoves in an effort to save a little weight, and also because the Clik-Stand requires a wide pot base. So experimenting with systems inside first, then will take them outside.

[Odd Man Out]

Not yet. I've been using a Clik-Stand and Trangia for several years, and it is a reliable setup. I started looking at these other alcohol stoves in an effort to save a little weight, and also because the Clik-Stand requires a wide pot base. So experimenting with systems inside first, then will take them outside.

What 4eyebuzzard said. I've used galvanized pot stands for quite a while and not had a problem. To alleviate my fears of inhaling Zn fumes from the galvanized coating that burns off, I build a campfire in my back yard, get a good hot bed of coals and throw the new pot stand in (standing up wind). You can see the coating burn off. In a few seconds you have bare steel wire. I lift it out with a stick and let it cool. Then you grill kebabs and make Smores. The bare wire of the pot stand will rust eventually, but they last a long time. As mentioned above, I trim excess wires off to make 1" squares. I make mine to be a complete circle by leaving wire prongs on one end which I fold over the vertical wire on the other end. I make mine to be nearly the diameter of the pot for maximum stability. I find this is still sturdy enough to support a pot with a couple of cups of water. Aluminum will soften or melt at the temperature of an alcohol stove flame, but steel and titanium, no so much.

If you want something else to experiment with, you can wrap your pot stand in foil or flashing, leaving a gap at the bottom for air intake and the top for heat output. this turns the pot stand into a secondary wind screen and the chimney effect may enhance air and heat flow even more. Some commercial systems use this kind of pot stand/wind screen exclusively. I think and outer wind screen would be necessary for maximum efficiency, especially in windy conditions, but for very little added weight you could get a performance boost. I had experimented with these a little, but never did any thorough testing of the idea.

[FarmerChef]

What 4eyebuzzard said. I've used galvanized pot stands for quite a while and not had a problem. To alleviate my fears of inhaling Zn fumes from the galvanized coating that burns off, I build a campfire in my back yard, get a good hot bed of coals and throw the new pot stand in (standing up wind). You can see the coating burn off. In a few seconds you have bare steel wire. I lift it out with a stick and let it cool. Then you grill kebabs and make Smores. The bare wire of the pot stand will rust eventually, but they last a long time. As mentioned above, I trim excess wires off to make 1" squares. I make mine to be a complete circle by leaving wire prongs on one end which I fold over the vertical wire on the other end. I make mine to be nearly the diameter of the pot for maximum stability. I find this is still sturdy enough to support a pot with a couple of cups of water. Aluminum will soften or melt at the temperature of an alcohol stove flame, but steel and titanium, no so much.

If you want something else to experiment with, you can wrap your pot stand in foil or flashing, leaving a gap at the bottom for air intake and the top for heat output. this turns the pot stand into a secondary wind screen and the chimney effect may enhance air and heat flow even more. Some commercial systems use this kind of pot stand/wind screen exclusively. I think and outer wind screen would be necessary for maximum efficiency, especially in windy conditions, but for very little added weight you could get a performance boost. I had experimented with these a little, but never did any thorough testing of the idea.

This is what I do with my alky stove (penny stove). I place a can lid I've cut off with a can opener under my stove and then hardware cloth around it as the pot stand. I too use hooks on the end to allow me to secure it and it is strong enough to support my 4 liter pot full of water and food. Never had a concern about failure even when it was cherry red. Also, that pot stand has lasted the entire length of the AT and is still going strong. The only issue now is that the topmost strand is separating from the rest of the cloth. No biggie. Also, I use a piece of heavy duty foil for my windscreen though I don't wrap it around my hardware cloth. This lets me modify the height/circumference to adjust for wind conditions. Maybe not necessary. Dunno.

[donthaveoneyet]

Interesting ideas and very helpful info, thanks! I think I'll try that idea of a piece of flashing attached to the pot stand (I wonder if a pop rivet would hold up?). I also wonder if some of that heat resistant paint might work, like is used for grills or vehicle exhaust systems?

[donthaveoneyet]

If you want something else to experiment with, you can wrap your pot stand in foil or flashing, leaving a gap at the bottom for air intake and the top for heat output. this turns the pot stand into a secondary wind screen and the chimney effect may enhance air and heat flow even more. Some commercial systems use this kind of pot stand/wind screen exclusively. I think and outer wind screen would be necessary for maximum efficiency, especially in windy conditions, but for very little added weight you could get a performance boost. I had experimented with these a little, but never did any thorough testing of the idea.


I've been playing around with this idea. Just made a hardware cloth pot stand 3 7/8 inches wide and 2 7/8 inches tall. I put a piece of flashing about 1 3/4 inches wide around the inside of the stand. Scratched my head a bit about how to attach it. Just to get something going, cut about a 1 inch strip and wrapped it around the outside, and riveted the two together with the stand sandwiched in between. Stand weighed in at .95 oz, but it's much bigger than needed for most homemade alky stoves, and I can definitely improve on the way of attaching the flashing (a small piece to act as a "washer" would work).

The stand will fit inside a generic 16 oz plastic screw top container for putting freezer bags in (I also use it for cold cereal mixes with powdered milk for a breakfast that doesn't require cooking). My Toaks 375 ml cup will then fit inside the stand, and various stoves will fit inside the cup. With a cozy around the plastic container, it will all fit in my Toaks 1300 pot, along with a cozy "top", so I can put the plastic container/cozy back in the pot and put the cozy top on and put the lid on to steep, and a homemade windscreen that goes around the outside of the container/cozy inside the pot. With all this and a Trangia, and lighter and rag, way oversized windscreen, and the Toaks mesh container, it comes to 15.8 oz. Heavy. But I can easily shave that down to 9-10 oz (probably less) by using a Zelph, shorter pot stand, less flashing on the pot stand, a smaller windscreen, and a few other tweaks. Still not the lightest setup, but for a 1300 ml pot, 375 ml cup, plastic container, cozy, stove, stand, windscreen, lighter and rag, I guess it's not bad. Lighter than my previous kit (GSI).

Anyway, I rigged this up basically to see how attaching the flashing to a hardware cloth stand helped, if at all. I tested it with the Trangia just now. Got a rolling boil in 5 1/2 minutes. It took longer with the Zelph, but the stand is too tall for that stove, really, I need to make a shorter one. I do think the flashing made a difference, and it gives some rigidity to the stand, as well.

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[Connie]

zelph has bplite.com forum for Q&A

I have my Vargo 750 Sierra about 3/4-1" above my zelph standard Starlyte, or, my zelph Starlyte Lite.

I evaluated all that at home. BTW, an overturned pot can snuff out flames: fire needs oxygen.

I have other stoves he makes that allow me to set the cooking pot right on that model stove.

[donthaveoneyet]

zelph has bplite.com forum for Q&A

I have my Vargo 750 Sierra about 3/4-1" above my zelph standard Starlyte, or, my zelph Starlyte Lite.

I evaluated all that at home. BTW, an overturned pot can snuff out flames: fire needs oxygen.

I have other stoves he makes that allow me to set the cooking pot right on that model stove.


Thanks, I didn't realize there was a forum for Zelph at bplite, will check that out.

Interesting on the height - I've been making various pot stands, experimenting. Haven't gone below 1 1/4 though. May try lower.

[Odd Man Out]

When using a Starlyte I would just blow it out (no snuffer needed). With a more powerful stove, I cut off the bottom of an aluminum can to use as a snuffer. The ability to snuff the stove and store excess fuel helps improve the fuel use efficiency a lot. With the Starlyte (without integrated pot stand), you can just store excess fuel in the stove due to the wick and plastic lid. With my other stoves, I suck the excess fuel back into my fuel bottle.

[Connie]

I like the Starlyte with lid, for that reason: no spill and cover to put it in a clothing pocket or a backpack outside pocket. This is a real "plus" for a backpacking stove.

I have two Starlyte stoves with lids: one standard and one simmer.

I have a Suluk46 titanium windscreen the diameter of my Vargo 750 Sierra, the top edge of the windscreen provides the pot support. If you are clever, you could make a titanium windscreen. I think it involves "just right" spot welding to join the ends for full wrap.

The Vargo 750 Sierra cookware has a rolled edge. I cut down the height of the windscreen so the cooking pot is "just right" so the flames come up that Vargo 750 Sierra tapered cooking pot sides.

I added vents in the windscreen top and bottem for what zelph calls laminar flow flame, he has shown is more efficient than flickering flames.

I like that feature, for speed heating water and in I want to saute fresh food.

The "simmer" Starlyte with lid gives me a slower heating rate for reheating cooked food. I do that for a more hiking-camping hike.

This makes up one "cookset".